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hy tel'aran'rhiod cant be a reflection of all worlds

by Oatman: 2004-01-25 | 3 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Philosophy and the Wheel of Time

Sorry if this has been brought up before but ive recently realised that tel'aran'rhiod cannot reasonably be a reflection of every world.

for one thing it reflects the way things are in the world, and if it was a reflection of every world it would have to reflect every possibility, even if it was only an occasional flicker depending on likelyhood. If this were true it have been possible and perhaps likely for the Aes Sedai searching Elaidas study to pull out a report which, while true in one world, might not be true in thiers. For example they may have got a report which said Rand had gone to the tower and sworn fealty to Elaida, or a world where Siuan was still Amyrlin seat, and gotten reports from her, which is a highly likely possibility since the only reason she was disposed was Gawyn choosing the wrong side, and if he had gone the other way things would have been different.

However a more convincing argument is that if tel'aran'rhiod was a reflection of every world, it would have to be equally accessable from every world, and at any time one of the characters who could access tel'aran'rhiod entered, thier would be an infinite amount of them entering at the same time, for example egwene dreaming herself into the Stone. She would dream herself in and every other egwene from the alternate worlds which had gone in a similar way would dream themselves directly on top of one another, or close enough to it, which would create a very packed tel'aran'rhiod. This could also create a greater problem when you consider a forsaken making a gateway to tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh perhaps meeting an alternate version of themself and deciding to take one of the worlds at a time, to ensure the Dark Ones victory in both worlds and also thier individual dominance over the other forsaken.

For these reasons I believe that each world has its own tel'aran'rhiod, and that it is a reflection of what may be possible in that realty, such as positions of papers, open/closed doors, etc.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2004-02-10

T'A'R is a difficult subject because it is made up of a variety of dimensions. Consider it this way, the Unseen World encompasses all of the dimensions that are unseen. T'A'R, where dreamers go, is the non-permanent reflection dimension of the Unseen World. There is a non-permanent reflection dimension for the real world, and mirror worlds. However, you are scratching one of the biggest reasons why I believe that the inhabitants of mirror worlds are mere simulations. The Portal Stones have symbols, one of those being a symbol for the Real World, a symbol that shows up on the Portal Stones of Mirror Worlds. So, if the Rand of a Mirror World was to use the Portal Stone symbol for the Real World, he would have to show up in the Real World, as Rand did. And if that decision was mirrored, where are all of the Rands? Which leads to the obvious conclusion, the inhabitants of mirror worlds are simulated lives, without actual threads/souls, which is why we don't see a bunch of Rand's running around. Concerning T'A'R, it is a non-permanent reflection, so what is found there is not permanently attached to the actual time/reality of the real world. But, I agree with you, each world has its own non-permanent reflection...but go one step further, each world can be traveled to using T'A'R.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-02-10

I think TAR might be big enough to be a reflection of all worlds. Using the grolm world from Book 2 as an example, there is nothing stopping Egwene from going to a place in TAR that is a reflection of that. It might be tough for her to imagine such a place, but once she knows of it, she could find its reflection. The default going to TAR is that Egwene was looking for a reflection of her world's Elaida's study, even if she wasn't consciously thinking it had to be the one from her world. Because that's what she's imagining, that's where she ends up. Mirror Egwenes are looking for an Elaida's study of use to them, so they each find the reflection of their own world. Unless one was well-versed in mirror-worlds, the odds of them finding another mirror-Egwene are inifinitesimal.

So, I agree that each world has its own TAR, but I think it's also possible that they are one and the same, overlapping as the 'real' worlds do, and that travel from mirror TARs to our own is possible, if one had the knowledge to do so, which is lost in most if not all worlds.

a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-10

The first time T'A'R was introduced in the books: in Verin's speech to Egwene, when she gave her the ring ter'angreal (the Baalzamon dreams are not sure to be part of T'A'R in the strong sence, and not another dimension in the Unseen World), T'A'R was said to be a constant for all the worlds, and especially for all the if-worlds of the Portal Stones, constant like DO and the Creator are constant to all them. (Now there was a discussion between me and Tamyrlin, how much such statements as Verin's are to be trusted, but at least they are never to be neglected by inquiries like this :) ). So, there is only one T'A'R according to that Verin's information. But IMO You are right these worlds couldn't be reflected in one and the same location. But IMO one can only using T'A'R (without Portal Stone travelling) visit T'A'R-reflections of if-worlds, if one could localize them in T'A'R.

stoneface: 2004-02-10

I see your point, yet here is another idea to consider. What if each world had its own individual tel'aran'rhiod.

Rhodric: 2004-02-11

i propose something similar but different to Stoneface's idea:

there is only one all encompassing T'A'R. but the way in which TAR is observed by dreamwalkers walking within it is largely affected by which of the alternate worlds the dreamwalker comes from. It's like quantum theory:(for any who understand it)

if no-one is present in TAR, then TAR is a superposition of all possible reflections of mirror worlds. when a dreamwalker enters/interacts with TAR ('measures') then TAR 'collapses' (to use quantum jargon) to the type of reflection which best fits the particular dreamwalker.

Dreamwalkers who are from the main 'real' WOT world see mostly a reflection of their world, with a few deviations from it (like the flickering of doors open/closed). Dreamwalkers from, say, the grolm world in TGH (assuming there are/were any) would see a reflection of the grolm world, with no interaction with the 'real' world dreamwalkers. this is why no-one has stumbled across an other world dreamwalker.

Oatman: 2004-02-13

Thanks for the feedback, and it sounds to me like even the people who say they are disagreeing with me are agreeing. If it is impossible to see another version of the world it is another world in my opinion, so for all those arguing that, I think you you are suggesting much the same thing that i was.

Aiel Finn: 2004-12-11

What if T'A'R is just a huge, very malleable, space. I does encompase every world and you can go anywhere just by imagining it. The thing is that when someone from the main WoT world imgaines a place, thier subconsicous fills in the place in thier world. The Forsaken and Ishy especially can actually create differnt places in T'A'R for thier own use. For examples, see the "dreams" in tEotW where the lighting and perception of things moving is described exactally as in T'A'R and the example of when Brigette shows Nynaeve or Elayne the meeting of the forsaken which is obviously in a created place.

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