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Home | Index | Archives | Help
o... the other true power...
by charliec: 2004-02-19 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Philosophy and the Wheel of Time
OK, the dark one's servants can at times tap into his power, which they call the 'true power' (and I think it was for this that Mierin and co first made the bore). This power only comes with his blessing, and is seperate to the one power... possibly more powerful in some ways, and wielded differently. It does some pretty awesome things, generally in unpleasant ways (it comes from the bad dude after all), it may be capable of destroying a Gholam, depending on who you ask, and is presumably capable of weakening even Heartstone (how else did the DO break the seals, adn make the suviving ones fragile?).
This power is very much of the Dark One, whereas the 'One Power' is more general and universal.
My theory is this- both 'One Power' and 'True Power' are misnomers, because people don't know about the others. In fact there must be at least 3 distinct powers:
The one power (Saidin and Saidar)
The 'true' power from the DO
The other 'true' power from the creator.
Reasoning: the creator must have a power at his disposal to have created/maintained the world. Sure, you can argue that he'd have used Saidin and Saidar, but I'm not convinced... after all the DO actually managed to taint Saidin, so it can't be from the creator.
Besides, when we find the creator acting- in Tarwin's gap- there's no sign of Saidin or Saidar being used.
And again in Shadar Logoth when Rand is saved by the random dude (who I've always assumed to be some avatar of the creator) the guy wields balefire, but he doesn't use Saidin, and Rand doesn't sense Saidar (I think, don't have the books here, so shoot me down if I'm wrong)... nor does the bloke seem crazed and evil, ergo- there is another power, one from the creator.
This could help explain things like wtf is going on with Mat's medallion, and steddings, and (if the Gholam is made with the 'true' power) why the medallion can hurt it.
Prediction from theory- Rand will at some point encounter the creator's true power... possibly use it to repair the bore.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-03-07
Well, the dude that helped Rand in Shadar Logoth was Moridin and he was weilding the True Power - hence the inability to sense the One Power in him. But, you bring up some interesting points. If the Creator opened up the Stairway at Tarwin's Gap, leading him to T'A'R where Ishamael was waiting, would Rand have been able to sense the One Power being used by the Creator to perform that event? I don't know. The Guide, and Jordan's explanations, do not lead us to believe that a third power exists, but it would be a good question for Jordan just to clear the air.
Unicorn: 2004-03-07
I don't think so. IMO the one power is the creators doing made with is own strength(deliberatly not using the term power), and wice versa the true power is a thing of the DO. Oh and here goes all the, how come the forsaken can wield the one power etc. etc. As to that, I don't think the creator is a control freak like the DO. Basically that is one of the 'issues' the big V and the DO has. In this aspect the creator is much like the judao-christian god, he grants the use of power, the earth or will, and so forth, with a statement much like "here are the means to do whatever you want to, use it wisely and I will reweard you." in christianity the reward is entrance to paradise, and in WOT it seems to be rebirth(sorry don't have the books right here, i am refering to Siuans oath to Gareth Bryne, it is in tFoH chapter 1). This is opposed by the DO who grants use of power if you serve him, in short the creator is hsow yourself worthy and I will bother, and the DO submit and I will "protect" you.
SO I do not agree with any third power or Gold ajah or anything the Creator has a sort of a fail safe. If this world falls to the shadow the creator will be sad and weep for the creatures(people) he has created but he will go on, for to him it was the choice of the creatures that destroyed them not any negligence on his part.
Callandor: 2004-03-07
**This could help explain things like wtf is going on with Mat's medallion, and steddings, and (if the Gholam is made with the 'true' power) why the medallion can hurt it.**
Mat's medallion comes from the AoL, RJ interview on that. How it works is it was made with the OP by some means, we just don't know how and most likely never will. Gholams work on the same principle as the medallion and that is most likely why it hurts it.
**Besides, when we find the creator acting- in Tarwin's gap- there's no sign of Saidin or Saidar being used.**
The way of traveling from Tarwin's Gap is distinctly close to Skimming like in the Rand Asmo fight at the end of TSR. Saidin and saidar not being sensed is because Rand was still new to the Power; this is the same reason why it took till TSR for Elayne and Egwene to realize the affinity to other channelers.
**Reasoning: the creator must have a power at his disposal to have created/maintained the world. Sure, you can argue that he'd have used Saidin and Saidar, but I'm not convinced... after all the DO actually managed to taint Saidin, so it can't be from the creator.**
Why is that? The DO can touch the world, does that mean that the world was not made by the Creator?
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 12 - Across the Taren
"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of Creation, *the force the Creator made to turn the Wheel of Time."* She put her hands together in front of her and pushed them against each other. "Saidin, the male half of the True Source, and saidar, the female half, work against each other and at the same time together to provide that force. Saidin" - she lifted one hand, then let it drop -"is fouled by the touch of the Dark One, like water with a thin slick of rancid oil floating on top. The water is still pure, but it cannot be touched without touching the foulness. Only saidar is still safe to be used." Egwene's back was to Rand. He could not see her face, but she was leaning forward eagerly."
Said flat out. No other Power by the Creator. The Creator's power IS the One Power.
Anubis: 2004-03-08
rand made the stairway to heaven, not the creator. It was skimming. Pure and simple. Read the end of the shadow rising where rand chases after asmodean. He talks about the fact that he is skimming and the only other time he had done it he had been on a ladder or stair (i forget) but it is a clear refrence to the end of TEOTW.
Arbryan: 2004-03-08
I'm struggling with believing that the DO has his own power at all. I thought that it was stated in no uncertain terms that he cannot create, only taint and destroy? If his own personal power source can rival the One Power then the world is just doomed. The Creator imprisoned the DO which means whatever power he wields is superior to the DO (whether it is more powerful, or just that the Creator is more powerful, we can't determine with the information we have available to us).
It makes more sense that the DO can tap into both Saidin and Saidar and that he just allows the chosen to link with him and tap into the One Power. Called the True Power just like the “Chosen” call him the “Dark Lord”. It's just a different name for the same thing. The link explains why he can control who accesses the power, and if you draw upon anything through the Dark One there is bound to be a price (saa and addiction for the obvious examples).
The very argument against a third power destroys the existence of the True Power, because Moiraine didn't state that the Creator made it. Otherwise, if you believe in a second source, then you may need to reconsider a third.
charliec: 2004-03-08
Can I assume that Moridin being the guy in Shadar Logoth is something from the BWB? I don't remember any sa'aa or other signs, but I may just be massively non-observant. got to get hold of that BWB...
In response to a couple of things- Callandor, sure Moiraine doesn't mention any other powers, but as far as we know the Aes Sedai don't know about the 'true' power either... they are NOT all knowing, and the creator could easily have something up his sleeve.
**Why is that? The DO can touch the world, does that mean that the world was not made by the Creator?**
The point being- presumably the DO is not actually capable of tainting the creator himself... but he can touch the world and pattern because they are creations, and separate to the creator or the DO. To me the fact that the DO can taint Saidin implies that it is separate from the creator as well (as stated in quotes such as those above). The One power is a part of creation, separate to the creator.
Unicorn, **I don't think so. IMO the one power is the creators doing made with is own strength(deliberatly not using the term power), and wice versa the true power is a thing of the DO.**
Fair comment... I would suggest the true power is the Dark One's equivalent 'strength', and the way that he acts on the world... the implication still being that the creator has some 'strength'/power at his disposal which we've yet to encounter (and admittedly- may never).
I guess this does kinda need to go to RJ...
PS. yippee, got my first theory posted! ;)
Korell: 2004-03-09
Nice thread but
I have to go with Callandor on this one The one.
The "TRUE SOURCE" is the creators power and the one power is tapped into it it is derived from it. The creator used the "TRUE SOURCE" to create the wheel if the creator has a more powerful power then the True Source. then why not use it to create the worlds? what you fail to understand is that the Wheel of Time is based very much on the basic philosphy of duality yin and yang good and evil right and wrong. why have so many things that demonstrate duality and then just throw in somthing. it does not fit and the fact that the books are almost over
Rand is getting his butt kicked all over the place oh but all of the sudden he has untapped power to rival the creator and in one fell stroke he seals the bore the end.
kind of cliche dont you think? Not to mention people would be going off how he ripped the ending from LOTR because basically the rings hits the Lava and BAM!! end of Sorin.
The DO will not be destoryed the bore will be no more the patern will be made whole again until the next turning.
Remember Duality True Source vs. True Power.
asdaf: 2004-03-09
Charliec:
**Aes Sedai don't know about the 'true' power either... they are NOT all knowing, and the creator could easily have something up his sleeve. **
Moirane maybe not, but AS in AoL knew much more, and all Mierin found was True Power (and the Dark One), she didn't found any hint of some other power, and she's been looking for it.
**after all the DO actually managed to taint Saidin, so it can't be from the creator.**
Yes, but he ONLY tainted it not corrupted - saidin itself was pure but in order to use it a channeler had to break through the layer of taint (taint and saidin were not mixed). You can say that the DO managed to damage the true source (which is not a part of the Creator), caused its 'malfunction', but, I will say it again, saidin was never corrupted per se.
**The One power is a part of creation, separate to the creator.**
And where is it said that True Power is not separate to the DO (or in reverse, is taken directly from him)? All I can remember is that the DO *grants* access to it, nothing more. We don't know where source of TP is located.
My point of view is of course: no other power.
Darren: 2004-03-10
Arbryan, you really need to read the books more thoroughly. It is stated in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that the bore was made at the discovery of a new power, one that men and women could use equally. (Reat TSR again)
The TP IS a power that comes from the Dark One, not the Creator. It doesn't mean he's more powerful than the Creator, just different.
charliec... the DO did NOT taint saidin... He laid a taint over the surface of it, so whoever draws it without a proper shield, also draws some of the taint. I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but that's semantics for ya. Moridin is NOT an aspect of the creator... and that's the toilet paper he's using.
Also, I stand firmly against the idea that the Gholam were made using the TP... I doubt Aginor had the permission, but that's a whole other issue.
Arbryan: 2004-03-10
Darren, I'm actually quite familiar with the series, thanks for suggesting a re-read though.
I'd like to point out a couple of obvious points. 1. It is not stated in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. If this new power exists before they drill the Bore how do they KNOW it can be used by both men and women until they have access to it? If it's unknown and never before used then I'd say there is absolutely NO WAY you can claim certainty around what it is and how it is used.
My point was more philosophical regarding one power or multiple powers.
The name True Power is a name given to that power by either the DO himself or the Forsaken. The name is MEANINGLESS. As we all know the Forsaken call themselves the Chosen (yet they are still the Forsaken) and darkfriends call the DO the Dark Lord (yet he is still the DO). I suppose you have a letter from Jordan stating that the True Power is the Dark Ones own personal power, or is your criticism strictly based upon speculation?
Personally, I believe that the TP is the Dark Ones own power, but there is NO FACT that it is so. In the search for an answer I try to provide other possibilities and look at things from various angles. Isn't that the purpose of this site? I also feel that the True Source was a creation of the Creator and is not his own personal power. If that is correct, I also believe that we will not see any direct use of the Creator's power in the series – which might leave this as an unresolved personal speculation.
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-10
**It makes more sense that the DO can tap into both Saidin and Saidar and that he just allows the chosen to link with him and tap into the One Power.**
If the TP was simply Saidin and Saidar, why can't channelers feel the use of it?
Arbryan: 2004-03-10
Just to clarify, I meant that there is NO FACT in TSR (unless I'm mistaken). The passage in reference goes like this.
“ Mierin had said today was the day. She said that she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves. What men and women could do united would be even greater now that there would be no differences. And today she and Beidomon would tap it for the first time – the last time men and women would work together wilding a different Power. “
TSR Chapter-26 P-436 US Paperback
New source for the ONE POWER. Today they would TAP it for the FIRST TIME.
While I may need to look at it more thoroughly I don't see how this is no uncertain terms. Perhaps you can elaborate?
BTW: There is an information trail that this passage doesn't really support leading to conclusions on the TP. I've done quite a bit of research on it today. Most I think can go either way but there is at least one point that makes for more of a stretch to prove otherwise than to just accept that its a power of the Dark One. It can't be sensed by others is pretty much the clencher.
Though that does make me wonder. Do Myrddraal have limited access to the TP? Their ability to enter shadows is one example of something that might be done with the TP. They don't have eyes so saa would not be present. It could also be an affect of how they are made in conjunction with the TP. (Sorry, jumped a little off topic at the end.)
Callandor: 2004-03-10
**I suppose you have a letter from Jordan stating that the True Power is the Dark Ones own personal power, or is your criticism strictly based upon speculation?**
**Q: Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power?
A: It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, *the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One.* There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in CROWN OF SWORDS.**
From the DO.
Also:
**Q: And also is the Dark One the only source of the True Power?
A: Yes, the Dark One is the only source of the True Power.**
Only him, only FROM him.
And, the DO needed special circumstances in order to taint Saidin; he did not just think of it as he was being sealed off.
**I'd like to point out a couple of obvious points. 1. It is not stated in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. If this new power exists before they drill the Bore how do they KNOW it can be used by both men and women until they have access to it? If it's unknown and never before used then I'd say there is absolutely NO WAY you can claim certainty around what it is and how it is used.**
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated
Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves. What men and women could do united would be even greater now that there would be no differences. And today she and Beidomon would tap it for the first time the last time men and women would work together wielding a different Power. Today.**
Who is Mierin? That's right, Lanfear. What happened due to this event? That's right, the DO could touch the world. However they knew a power was there, we will never know, but they could not draw on it or use it before the Bore was drilled; that is a fact.
**Can I assume that Moridin being the guy in Shadar Logoth is something from the BWB?**
No, it is not from the BWB, it is just a compliation of small details that pinpoint him as Moridin. Check out the WOT FAQ if you want to know what they are.
**In response to a couple of things- Callandor, sure Moiraine doesn't mention any other powers, but as far as we know the Aes Sedai don't know about the 'true' power either... they are NOT all knowing, and the creator could easily have something up his sleeve.**
Ok... Lets look at this logically shall we?
1. The Creator created the True Source, the book quote shows that no matter how hard you dispute Moiraine's non-omnipotency because we have NOTHING that counters it or even comes close.
2. From TEOTW till ACOS we had been seeing things that couldn't be explained by just saidin and saidar. We later found out that this was because of the the True Power. This is the DO's own power, drawn from him.
3. We have no indication of any other power whatsoever that exists. The events of Tarwin's Gap cannot be justified as proof of a new power since they can be explained by Rand not knowing how to use saidin and going by his wilder instincts, via Skimming, which is fully explained in TSR fight between Rand and Asmo and some of TFOH; they are exactly the same.
4. Everyone knows RJ likes duality and balance. We have the True Source, created by the Creator, and the True Power, drawn from the DO. Two powers, similar yet different. Sound familar to saidin and saidar? An existance of yet another power souly for the Creator's choice would tip the balance for him; that goes against a major theme in these books.
Now what can be drawn from these conclusions?
There--is--no--other--Power.
Arbryan: 2004-03-11
Well put Callandor. I came across the interview regarding the TP as coming from the DO after the post. While that portion of my post was close minded - I was focused solely on TSR - I definitely agree with the fact that we will only be exposed to 2 powers (True Source and True Power) in this story.
I also believe that there will never be enough information to establish concrete evidence to support a third power. And I definitely believe that it will not be the scale-tip in the LB. I feel that we will see new heights reached once men and women put more effort into channeling together again. And that the combination of Saidin and Saidar will outmatch the solidarity of the True Power (unless you can link with the TP?).
charliec: 2004-03-11
I feel thoroughly ganged up upon! ;)
A few notes... RJ IS big on balance, no doubt about it, but I feel that that sup[orts a third power. The One Power is neither good nor evil, it is PART of creation. Everything was balanced when that was all we knew...
But there are plenty of things which the OP doesn't explain, and later we get to blame these on the 'True' Power... the Dark One's own strength/power.
I kinda agree with Arbyran: **I'm struggling with believing that the DO has his own power at all. I thought that it was stated in no uncertain terms that he cannot create, only taint and destroy?**
When we see the TP in action it bears all the hallmarks of the DO... it RIPS holes in the pattern, it kills, it twists, and it addicts. Surely the principle of RJ's balance argues for a similar strength/power from the credator to redress the equilibrium?
I still feel it needs to go to RJ himself though...
On some other points... if it's just an extrapolation then I'll hold on believing the guy in Shadar Logoth is Moridin until I get home and re-read the books, unless you can give me convincing evidence?
I always felt that there was something sinister about Mierin before she drilled the bore, and suspect that she already knew more or less what she was unearthing... incidentally do we know whether the other guy (Beidomon?) is one of the forsaken, or just a poor sucker?
Callandor: 2004-03-11
**if it's just an extrapolation then I'll hold on believing the guy in Shadar Logoth is Moridin until I get home and re-read the books, unless you can give me convincing evidence?**
Go to Google. Search for "Wheel of Time FAQ". It is the first site listed. Read through it and be convinced.
Anubis: 2004-03-12
bedimon is a nobody. and the reason everyone believes the man in shadar lagoth is moridin, is the... well not matching physical descriptions, but they could easily be 2 different descriptions of the same man, also the channeling without anyone being able to sense it strongly suggests true power, and as we learn later only Moridin/Ishmael can use that.
udernation: 2004-03-12
Two things...
a) Does Mierin's journal not say "We have found another source for the one power", meaning that there is only ONE power, and it can be drawn from different sources. The inability to sense TP and to an extent Saidar could be explained away by saying that before Rand could use Saidar, he couldnt sense it. Same for all channellers. SO, perhaps they'er all just different ways of reaching the same source.
b) Did RJ ever confirm that it was the creator at tarwins gap? that never made sense to me (even tho it was the first thing that came to mind), because why would the creator interfere? there have been much worse situations since, AND isn't the creator all for not interfering?
Darren: 2004-03-12
"Though that does make me wonder. Do Myrddraal have limited access to the TP? Their ability to enter shadows is one example of something that might be done with the TP." -Arby
Read LoC... I can't quote, as I didn't bring the books. Semirhage talks about Aginor testing "more than a hundred" Myrddraal to destruction to find out how they jump shadows like that, and she herself discovered that they themselves did not know how they did it (presumably under torture) Now it says there that it has nothing to do with the Power... and I DO assume that the OP is meant, but I also doubt it's a TP phenomena.
"1. It is not stated in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. If this new power exists before they drill the Bore how do they KNOW it can be used by both men and women until they have access to it? If it's unknown and never before used then I'd say there is absolutely NO WAY you can claim certainty around what it is and how it is used."
Callandor kind of beat me to the punch on the Mierin, Beidomon quote, but I am kind of shocked to see you agreeing with him, did you not say
"It makes more sense that the DO can tap into both Saidin and Saidar and that he just allows the chosen to link with him and tap into the One Power"?
Did you not say
"I'm still struggling with believing that the DO has his own power at all. I thought that it was stated in no uncertain terms that he cannot create, only taint and destroy? If his own personal power source can rival the One Power then the world is just doomed."
Yes, you did say these things.
Anyways...
A lot of people are harping on the words Power, True Power, or One Power used in the series... Now, I like semantics as much or MORE than the next man, but sometimes you all need to remember that some of the people quoted from the texts are not themselves experts on the Power(s), aware of the TP at ALL, or even channelers AT ALL.... Remember that it is not Lanfear talking about a discovery for a "new way to blah blah blah" it is her loyal servant.
Also remember that Lanfear is not exactly the most honest person in the world, and what she said to the AS to effect the bore may have had nothing to do with the truth.
THE TP AND THE OP ARE SEPARATE.
charliec: 2004-03-12
Thanks Callandor... not totally sold as yet, but definitely plenty of food for thought...
Udernation- yes I think Mierin does say she's getting a new source for the same power, but that may or may not have been true...
The TP can certainly do many of the same things as the OP, but it also seems to do them in very different ways. Admittedly Saidin and Saidar also differ in method and ability, so maybe it's the same power but a different source.
In which case, feel free to rephrase the theory- if the power can be drawn through the DO (taking on some of his characteristics) then it may also be possible to draw it through the creator (again, taking on some of HIS characteristics?).
I suppose this may be a little more palatable to One power enthusiasts... though effectively it's the same debate...
Arbryan: 2004-03-13
Darren - Last time I'll address you directly. Not to be petty but I doubt others appreciate this going off topic (to the rest of you I apologize).
1. I think Callandor backed up my comment that your reference to TSR was incorrect. It is implied but not concrete without the out-of-book comment by RJ. I have to assume you knew of this which was why you were so sure of your response? Shame you didn't bother to reference that from the beginning it would have been nice to know.
2. I'm guessing you've been here longer than I have but try reading from the top post down. You've taken my comments out of order. Not sure about you but I can accept an error, learn, and move on. I've posted corrected viewpoints over time and you've managed to grab old information. Yes I did say those things, but since I can't remove old thoughts they remain.
I thought the point of this Theory was to discuss a third power. Which logically would include conversation surrounding the second.
udernation: 2004-03-15
Yes! Charlie this is what I was thinking. Saidin/Saidar and Saidark could perhaps be 'filters' for the same power, drawn from the true source... I admit my main evidence is Mierins' quote, but I'm getting my books out of storage so I can do a bit more research. THis would explain Gholams as 'Blockages' in the filter, hence channelling not working. Because of the (to use a colander analogism) different sizes of the filters, this is why chics cant sense saidin, etc. Saidin and Saidar are more similar than Saidark, the 'holes' are closer sizes...does any of this make sense...?
udernation: 2004-03-15
ah ha! further proof of my 'Water Filter' theory...
"the ties to what he knew as a greater power than the light, or even the Creator.".
This separates the power of the light and the creator. (Also other references to the 'ties' to the source(s)Saidark, Saidar, Saidin all rely on filters, known as 'ties' to the True source. Ref:
"connected by a bright, white cord extending to the source"
These ties have different widths - the filters let through different amounts of power - Saidin more than Saidar (hence Male channellers greater power) and Saidin less than Saidark (hence the amazing powers that TP weilders have). Because of the different shape of the flows, due to the different filters, the different powers have to be handled differently, hence inability for women to teach men, and (my supposed)incongruities between TP and OP.
BUT THERE'S MORE!
Back to the first quote: 'greater than the light or even the creator'
There are FOUR filters, one as yet unseen (thanks charliec).
Read on...
The 'Dark ones' Filter, Saidar.
The 'Pattern' Filters, Saidin and Saidar, used to run the wheel.
AND
The 'Creator' Filters, ie. Unfiltered Power. The creator doesnt have a filter, hence his ability to CREATE the pattern (the filters occur upon entrance to the pattern, through different conduits) and his inability to interfere except through agents - the True Source is intrinsic to him, he cannot filter himself.
Tamyrlin, should this be a theory by itself? Probably... ah well.
It's unique, i know, but input, anyone?
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-15
udernation...I agree with you. I recently submitted a theory along these lines but it hasn't been posted yet. I explained it using physicals but I think the gist of what I was getting at is the same as what you are talking about. I think that Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power are simply different filters of the same thing.
udernation: 2004-03-17
woohoo! i'm not insane!
also, i made a spelling error, obviously TP and saidar are not the same think...the dark ones power i meant to refer to is Saidark
charliec: 2004-03-17
interesting udernation... but I'm not sure I go with there being an inherent order of power between the filters.
Sure men are on the whole thought to be stronger than women, but there are more and more counter examples appearing. Even if men are stronger this may be to do with the male/female differences, rather than the saidin/saidar differences.
I'm certainly not convinced yet that the TP is inherently stronger than the OP, I'm not sure I've seen any evidence of this.
I'd think of the difference from the 'filters' as being more of flavour... power through the DO tastes of DO, power through the OP tastes fairly neutral, maybe power through the Creator tastes good. Of course, this is pure speculation!
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-17
My Theory got posted!!!!!!!!! I don't want to bore you with the recitation here but take a look at it.
I like your analogy of taste as well. I think that sums it up pretty well.
udernation: 2004-03-18
i'm putting together a united theory of what i wrote and a few other things, explaining the 'flavours' you mentioned, and a few other things i didnt explain...i should send it off by the end of the week. Hope Tam posts it before the end of the month, i suppose...P.S., Tamyrlin, if you're reading, no need to post the Non-interference theory, as it is being combined with the Filter theory...thanks bro!
charliec: 2004-04-13
Travelling/Skimming with the OP is done by making a gateway, when Demandred uses teh TP to do it he 'rips' his way in and out of the pattern. Both powers can travel/skim, but they do it in different ways.
I re-read the bit in Tarwin's gap, and it doesn't sound like he moves by a traditional OP gateway, although a similar end is achieved...
Udernation reckons that the DO was working there rather than the Creator, but I disagree, and I don't think the description of the travelling away from Tarwin's gap tallys well with either the OP or the TP.
Callandor: 2004-04-13
**Travelling/Skimming with the OP is done by making a gateway, when Demandred uses teh TP to do it he 'rips' his way in and out of the pattern. Both powers can travel/skim, but they do it in different ways.
I re-read the bit in Tarwin's gap, and it doesn't sound like he moves by a traditional OP gateway, although a similar end is achieved...
Udernation reckons that the DO was working there rather than the Creator, but I disagree, and I don't think the description of the travelling away from Tarwin's gap tallys well with either the OP or the TP.**
Rand channeled a Gateway at Tarwin's Gap to Skim to Ishamael. It is not descirbed as it is in later books because of RJ's idea of saidin being more of a wonderful experience, and new, then the standard Rand has come to use in the later novels.
Read Tarwin's Gap over, and you will see the description of Rand running up endless dark stairs, exactly like how he Skimmed in the beginning of chasing Asmodean.
charliec: 2004-04-14
I agree completely about the stairs, he'd achieved the same effect, got to the same weird skimming world... it's the gateway I'm interested in- not a tear through the pattern, not a big black doorway, but instead a dome of fog around him, which the steps disappear up into.