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he Nature and Existance of Immortality.

by Anubis: 2004-05-20 | 3 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Philosophy and the Wheel of Time

Firstly the Nature. Immortality is by definition being unable to die. But, for the purposes of the wheel of time I think this will not work. Anything CAN happen. So I am going to flow with two different more specific (and not mutually exclusive) definitions of immortality and debate both of them.

1. Immortality is a gift from the Dark One. It "flows" for lack of a better word through the black chords. As long as these black chords exist (and immortality is still granted) the Imortal person can not die.

1b. The Evidince in support. I forget how Rand defeats Ishmael in TEOTW but i think it is with a firey sword. Not important. The important part is in the next book. Rand plunges his sword into ishmaels chest. This IS a lethal blow. Sword through chest = dead. An Aes Sedai could have Healed the wound, but this did not happen. In TDR Ishmael clutches his chest as if recovering from a wound. Yeah, hes recovering from a mortal wound. That sounds pretty immortal to me. Then, still in keeping with the theory, Rand cuts the chords (ending the immortality) and finally kills Ishmael for real (by plunging a sword into his chest.... oh hey it works now!! i wonder why). Except for the transmitigation but that is another theory for another day.

2. Immortality is just protection from "natural" death. An Immortal person does not age, does not get sick, and has gifts similar to a warder, only stronger.

2b. A bad explination for the survival of the lethal blow in TGH, and it does not explain why Ishmael dies from the exact same blow in TDR but it does explain how Ishmael survived so freakin long time.

Closing words. Immortality does NOT mean that a person will not die ever. Immortality was granted in the Age of Legends. Robert Jordan said so. And those people are not around today, with the possible exception of Ishy.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2004-08-24

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
One potential problem with #1 is that we've yet to see Black Chords connecting the female Chosen to the Great Lord. We've only seen them on the men. If they only exist for the men (as has been previously postulated), then how does immortality 'flow' to Graendal, et.al.?
Immortality was granted during the Age of Legends. Granted to whom, the Forsaken? All of them, or only the 13 that got sealed up in the Bore? If Immortality was granted to non-Sealed Forsaken, then either Immortality needs a direct link to the Great Lord, or you're still able to die. Even Connor MacLeod died despite his immortality, once he lost his head.

Dorindha: 2004-08-24

I think the key part is that immortality was PROMISED in the AoL, upon the DO's release, not granted. Ishamael, as you point out, took a lot of killing, and that does seem to contradict my above statement, but as Frenzy says, the black cords idea has its holes.

Thus, I don't think the forsaken are currently immortal (stating the obvious, given the deaths of about half of them), but that the standard definition of immortality does apply - if you are immortal: you cannot die.

Callandor: 2004-08-24

**1. Immortality is a gift from the Dark One. It "flows" for lack of a better word through the black chords. As long as these black chords exist (and immortality is still granted) the Imortal person can not die.**

**That sounds pretty immortal to me.**

The Forsaken are in no way immortal. In the sentence you refered to RJ saying it took place in the AoL, he also said they were not immortal.

**RJ interview #9 from Budapest interview:

Q: Are the Forsaken already immortal?

RJ: No, they are not immortal.

Q: Do they know that?

RJ: Yes, they know that.

Q: Do they believe they are immortal?

RJ: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be; all they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this; this is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant him immortality. And they believe this, because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life, give the dead new bodies, transfer souls from a dying body to a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this, so they know, that can be done.**

Don't believe me, go to Dragonmount, look under "The Books", then "About the Author", then "Interviews", and select the Budapest, Hungary interview (or if you know of it at a different location). Select #9 and listen for yourself.

Anubis: 2004-08-24

I would imagine that the Dark One only granted the forsaken immortality. And from Moridin we know that not one single forsaken in the AOL ever died of enemy action. They all died from the Dark Ones "suspicion".

And as far as women and chords... why wouldnt the women have them? Rand says that the chords are their connection to the Dark One and I am inclined to agree with him. Just because we havent seen it doesnt mean it isnt there. And besides, the only person to see the chords is Rand and Rand has never killed or even really fought a female forsaken.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-08-25

Traditionally, immortality is not aging and not dying. So sue us if we thought that's what the Dark One meant. But here are some other equally acceptable definitions:

1. Ages but doesn't die. Yes, you will live forever, in a decrepit, disease-riddled body. Congratulations.

2. The body heals from wounds instantly. No damage equals no death.

3. The soul moves from body to body. See Fallen or Freejack for somewhat recent movie examples.

4. The body is reincarnated. Some religions are based on this, minus the instantaneity of reincarnation.

5. The body rises from the dead, like a vampire or zombie. Life isn't great, but at least you're still trucking along.

Any of these, and other variations constitute immortality. In the Wheel of Time everyone has an immortal soul that is reborn. The Dark One has basically pledged to do away with the waiting to get reborn part, and has shown his willingness to do so several times already. The Forsaken hope to do away with the dying part, but so far as I can see, they already have immortality by way of transmigration. Though since it's dependent on their boss, it could only be loosely classified as 'their' immortality.

Zader: 2004-08-27

TSR ch 58 The Traps of Rhuidean. Asmodean talking to Rand.

** “It was my link to the Great Lord that allowed me to touch saidin without going mad” he said hoarsely. “All you have done is make me as vulnerable as you ...”**

This is Asmodean's opinion of what severing the chords meant. Don't know if it helps or not.

Anubis: 2004-08-28

My real problem is with Ishmael. I believe he was immortal. The whole chords being cut before death and surviving a sword through the chest would lean toward that.

brother of Battles: 2004-08-30

I am inclided to agree with Zader. I just always thought it was the male forsaken's link to the DO that protected them from the taint. Without the cords the male forsaken would be just as suseptable to the taint as any other male channeler. What else would the DO do if his people were channeling dirty power and going insane? He doesn't have the same amount of candadites that he did in AoL, he can't really burn through the channelers like he did then. Besides, why haven't there been any additions to the forsaken side? You would think with Rand kicking the forsaken's butt and everything, the DO would be recruting like mad.

But anyway, back to the point. I think the black cords are the DO's protection against the taint. That is why the females don't have them.

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