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lan Morin Tedronai's Philosophy

by a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-07 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Philosophy and the Wheel of Time

This theory is a speculation about the philosophical ideas, theoretical style and role in the history of Elan Morin Tedronai, before he turned to the Shadow and before he became Ishamael. There is very poor information in the books about it: a short remark in BWB, and some indirect traits, that the true conceptions of Elan Morin would have in the contemporary style and intellectual manierisms of Ishamael and in the opinion of 3Age about Ishamael and about philosophy, and untrue suggestions about EMT would more possibly not have it.

Now the quote from BWB:

"As Elan Morin Tedronai, he was one of the foremost philosophers of his time, possibly the foremost. His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and the Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts. No copies survive, and perhaps the world is better off for it, considering the circumstances. Some particles that have survived of his writings from after he went over to the Shadow – probably letters – indicate that it was his belief that the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin Telamon had gone on since the creation using human surrogates. According to him, Lews Therin had succumbed to the Dark One during other turnings of the Wheel and become the Great Lord's champion. During the war, he fought as hard to turn Lews Therin to the side of the Shadow as he did to defeat him."

First, it is to be mentioned, that no copies from his pre-turn writings survived, while some post-turning did. That indicates, that Ishamael was not very interested in propagating his pre-turning ideas to the wide world. During the Breaking, and before that, during the War of Shadow, there was good reason for people to burn all his books - he was hated and people could even fear of another people thinking they have sympathy to the Shadow because of having his book. But if Ishamael wanted his books to remain he would do it. His post-turning letters remained, so it was quite possible. Also in no one of his words in the books Ishamael never mentiones his pre-turning philosophy, he never spoke about "meaning", "reason", "reality" etc, he never spoke about his theories, books, academical influence (compare to Asmodean with his nostalgic speeches about his music, and about art of music in general) about him being philosopher, even nothing about any "Philosophy", "Logic" or something else. Ishamael doesn't do anything from this things to be expected from an authoritative philosopher and founder of an influentual school, that he was as Elan Morin. At least darkfriends would be teached in the fundsamentals of the true philosophy, at least those who have scientifical brains (Alviarin for example, whom exactly Ishamael raised to the head of the black Ajah). But no, uncommon for a self-confident author, Ishamaels manifests total indifference about the theoretical heritage of EMT. This is indication, that Ishamael doesn't think that EMT's writings have something important or useful in them. When he turned to the Shadow, he most likely declared his pre-turning philosophy for obsolete. Maybe he could consider EMT's writings even fo being wrong. Turning to the Shadow he changed also his philosophy.

After his convertion he expressed his idea about the eternal fight between the DO and the Creator using human surrogates, and that is an idea that couldn't be possible before the Bore, when people knew nothing about DO. Unlike to the topics about reason and meaning, Ishamael likes very much to speak about this fight of champions, to argue about, and to hint about his competence about this question, i.e. to act like a philosopher having this these among his basic theoretical statements. That also indicates change in his philosophy.

The meaning of his new name - "Betrayer of Hope", means that he was assotiated with "hope" before, for to betray it. Maybe the circumstances of how Ishamael got his name can fully explain the name itself - he publically declared his convertion to Shadow exactly on a conference devoted to solutions against the problems after the Bore (maybe this conference was assotiated with hope to heal the problems), and his action caused serious riots. One of the prominent defenders of the Good (as AS were considered in that times) changing side to the evil was really a great shock. But the problem would be not so great if he particularily was known to be suspicious in his beliefs before, if there was anything ambiguous in him before this incident. Semirhague also was an AS of the foremost when she declared herself publically for DO in the first days, but she made not the problems, Ishamael made, because she was already somewhat scandalous until this moment. The reaction against Ishamael shows a very sudden character of his change. I bet, nobody could think about him doing anything wrong before that act (here a comparison to the 'destroyer of Hope' - Sammael, who was one of the foremost generals for the Light before to turn to a general for the Shadow in a very decisive battle). If his pre-turning theories were used by the para-darkfriendish circles from these times, it wouldn't be such surprise and wouldn't be such shock. And if it was used by them in the beginning it would be used further and widespread, and so his early theories would not be lost. Ishamael was one of the known participant on that conference, i.e. one of those whom everybody expected to fight against the Shadow and to find solutions against it. I.e., what was known about Elan Morin until this public action, made the people to think he would effectively fight against the Shadow's early influence.

Also maybe his pre-Shadow philosophy was specifically assotiated with "Hope". It could be some spiritual and historiosophical kind of "Hope" because of the kind of influence it had, it could be even named "philosophy of Hope". If it was assotiated with "Hope" for the AoL society, the name "Betrayer" of "Hope" would fit especially good to the circumstances.

So, most likely when turning to Shadow, Ishamael repudiated his previous philosophy. So the basic statements of Elan Morin's philosophy are not present in Ishamael's thought and are lost. But even so, Ishamael's style of thought can be used for to speculate about EMT's style, because when a philosopher changes his basic statements, he most often remains the techniques of thought he uses for arguing and explaining his statements, and also his standards for what is to be called well done theory. Most of these traits are neutral to the basic statements, neutral to Light and Shadow, but they remain the same after the most radical changes. If EMT was white-Ajah like logician before, he wouldn't act in the way he is acting now (Semirague and Mesaana could be this kind of logicians before, but not Ishamael).

The only kind of philosophical interest that can be seen in Ishamael in the books, is his interest to the struggle between Light and Shadow during the endless turning of the Wheel, in the widest scale possible. As a particular branch of philosophy, this will be historiosophy, metaphysics of the deepest sense in the world's history from the world's beginning to world's end. Interesting is, that real-world historiosophical philosophies, if they are successful and influentual, are most often somewhat esoterical for the common population, and influence arts more then other aspects of the culture. Such theories about the deep sense of the history are also often the base for philosophies stressing the concept of Hope. All that makes it probable, that EMT was historiosophical also in his early writtings.

The titles of his lost books are about reason and meaning, not about the world's turning and hope. Now Ishamael doesn't show any visible interest more on "reason" or "meaning". However there is still an area of Ishamael's current interest that can be connected with topics like "perceived meaning". It's his competence about information, it's change and it's manipulation. "Father of Lie" is known as a description of DO, but Ishamael as Baalzamon definitely contributed a lot for this reputation. All the manipulation with information the Shadow did during the 3Age is supervised by him. I would also say, that he is to be responsoble for the standing high reputation of Shadow's Power all these 3000 years after the defeat of the Shadow, the reason that there were allways plenty of volunteers to become darkfriends. Other Forsaken also think about Ishamael as about one known to lie every time he could have the slightest advantage. (The source is Moghedien's monologue when she got the information from Nynaeve and Elayne.) Also Ishamael seems allways to be very interested in how people perceive the reality, and at least part of his major efforts were concentrated on that. He made lot about shaping public opinion about some topics especially in the time of Hawkwing and after that. There is a pattern in the way the people begin to think about thw White Tower, about geopolitical issues etc. everywhere the Shadow had more chances to have influence. Visible is Ishamael's hand in shaping the Seanchan mentality (and he is speaking about Seanchan as about his success; he is piling it on of course, but there was something inside).

Usually philosophical treatises about "perceived meaning" address the issues with how meaning reflect the things. If the meaning reflects the phaenomena precisely and correclty, there is no need to concentrate on the process of perceiving. But the theme about the "perceived meaning" becomes very important if in the process of the perceiving there are some changes, and especially if the process of perceiving is selective according to person's predetermined believes and manner of thinking. One is noticing only what one's mind is ready to notice, and after noticing it, one translates it into one's clichees - that's the main concern of every philosophical theory focussing on "perceived meaning". The most elaborated philosophies about perceived meaning are Kantian and Neo-Kantian transcendental philosophy, where the central statement is that reality itself has no own meaning, it's rough unorganized stuff, and any reasonaple perceiving need to filter it through it's predetermined "apriori" logical premises for to achieve any usable meaningful (compere it with the title of the second of EMT's books: "Reality and the absense of meaning"). Kantian philosophy looked for pre-experience presupposiitons necessary for every reason and every knowledge, and common for every possible thinking mind, but of course other philosophers after Kant stressed cultural differences, social factors (e.g. Marx), subconscious psychological processes (e.g. Freud), historical developement of believes etc. (sometimes even some mythical biological differences determining who will perceive what - as e.g. the Nazis did) as the real models that determine how people perceive the world. In the last case the character of this cultural, psychological, historical will determine the beliefs, kind of thinking and conclusions of the culture, community or individual who has that specifics, and thus it will determine the fate of thin culture, group or individual. And the fact is, that the real-world philosophies, that concentrate on culture-, history-, socially- or psychologically relative factors of perceived meaning, most often include also considerations and prediction about the fate of some social groups or cultural institutions. Most real-world philosophies, that deal with such "perceived meaning" issues are somewhat esoteric for wide popularity, and, if they have influence outside philosophy, it's most often arts (even if these kind of philosophies most often pretend to develop primarily considerations for importance for sciences). All that fits into the description of EMT's philosophical influence.

The second book of EMT was entitled "Reality and Absense of Meaning". Comparing with real-world philosophies that could include such phrase in the title of a fundamental book, most likely this means, that EMT's statement was: the reality itself hasn't meaning for mankind, it is only a rough material, and it is only the human mind that can give significance to anything, that can organize the rough data and create meaningful image of the world. Maybe it included the belief that humans can produce more then one interpretations of the reality, incompatible between each other, but both true, i.e. that both are completely supported by all the facts and completely explaining everything. So it becomes matter of choice what path of theorizing will be taken and it will open different destiny.

The third book of Elan Morin has the title "the Disassembly of Reason". If it meant just critics of those contemporaries of EMT, who pretended to be the defenreds of the "Reason", I think it wouldn't be called so if EMT remained hard-to-be-understandable author. Such name for a just critical book would mean appeal for some kind of rebelion against the precise argumentation, and such books can be influentiel only if they are well understandable for wide circles of readers and also marked with rhetorical talent. What else could this title "Disassembly" mean? The concept of "deconstruction" of the deconstructivists can give the best possible clue. If the "perceived meaning" is not direct reflection of reality (that is marked by "absense of meaning"), but developed due to historical, cultural, psychological etc. factors, and also decisive historical choices, then the Reason the civilisation is currently using, and that is based on the said perceived meaning, is dependent on this often unnoticed historical, cultural etc. premises and choices, and the usage of the Reason for great social projects could involve the implications that this premises will determine. I.e. the standards for Reason as people know it in the civilisation predetermine the conclusions in an way dependent on some forgotten comlicated processes of the past history, that may not be what people want to become from the usage of the Reason. So the current standards for Reason will require the analysis of the inconscious premises in them. Because these premises were unconsciously involved when the standards of Reason were assembled, constructed, the process of analysis will be a "deconstruction" or "disassembly". Something like an attempt of psychoanalysis of the Reason itself.

Such theories are intended to be considered by large social project and considerations, but usually they are not really used for that, because even if this theories are very detailed, they usually do not specify realistic and detailed implementation steps, but focus on analysis and developing integral conceptions. But this theories can excite human imagination, and so influence arts.

This is most likely what was Elan Morin's philosophy before his turn to the Shadow.

We don't know what were the statements of this theory, they are lost. But the manner of thinking and arguing is very likely to remain the same for Ishamael and to be seen in his behavior. So eventually contemporary behavior of Ishamael/Moridin would give us more about EMT's style, and vice versa (and more important), implications from that kind of making philosophy, that EMT developed, could explain Ishamael's theoretical style, or at least this implementation must fit into the current Ishamael/Moridin.

If the meaning is allways dependent on problematic premises, and that for every crucial meaning, then a philosopher could not rely on simple conclusions, because even the most obvious fact could become another meaning by other circumstances. Such philosopher would prefer rather many things to maintain a conclusion, then one to prove it. Exhaustiveness of the possible factors will be more important then the precision of the particular premises. And a contradiction would be indication not of an mistake, but rather of a tension in the dynamics of the different factors, (that gives the opportunity to twist the situation in your favor if properly shifting the ballance). Every statement would be examined for every aspect and every conjectures possible to find, and every possible statement would be taken into account, for to have the full picture. That would make impossible to have precise view on every particular detail, because such philosopher wuold focus on deeper trends. It will be logic, that can find surprising regularities in large scope, but could fail on simple details. This logic could understand very uncommon art of thinking of another culture and fail to see some obvious consequence. In the german and french philosophy there are many examples of such theoretical style.

If a mind who usually thinks in that manner begin to plan something practical, how his philosophical habits will affect his plans? First, the plans would be complicite, because such mind requires a rich context for to have any conclusion. Simple plans will be too much turnable for him. He would try if possible to turn in movement every aspect having relation to the situation, so that the context as awhole becomes advantageous. Complicite plans become dependent of many points of failure if there are just many preparational things to do first. But our philosopher will seek to find such interventions that will have effect whatever their outcome will be. Because for that kind of a philosopher most important is the conjencture of the details, not particular details. He will try to leave the mark of his style in every detail of the situation, and what would be the precise shape of these details is secondary thing. Finding points of instability, creating tensions, and using that for to place seeds of what is needed in all possible details would be the ideal plan for such kind of mind.

We see exactly that in Ishamael/Moridin. He uses allways very complicated and large-scaled plans, and by their implementation he is acting somewhat contraditory. So against Rand he is tempting him in one phrase, and the next phrase is a treat, and then again. He wants Rand alive, but his darkfriends try to kill Rand, and Baalzamon himself sometimes tries it (I believe it's seriously). He works parallelly in many many points, and every time he seems to try the both ways. He often said to Rand and to others, that by every outcome he will win. Later as Moridin, he plays for the both sides of the sha'rah board, and that is his view about what happens in the world. I.e. Ishamael's efforts are not about the outcome of each particular step of his plans, but in the sum of all attempts, and in the nuances that his multiple attempts bring in the world are his best result. He is controlling not the line of the events, but the pattern of the situation. And... he is not so strong in precise imprementation. And in direct fight, i.e. when there is single point of failure, the non-experienced Rand three times defeates the mighty Baalzamon. As Moridin he stops facing Rand and begins to manipulate Rand's environement in a very complex and convoluted way, and so he is attempting to put him into his machine of meanings, to change the environmental conditions of his situation.

He is compensating the lack of insight in particular events with his insight in nuances of larger processes. He has the reputation of "more then half-insane" for everybody around him (i.e. he is not very adequate about some usual situations), but he is maybe the best living expert on the turnings of the Wheel and the fight between Light and Shadow. Larger processes is where he can find nuances and to strive for something definite. In that he is somewhat similar to the manner the Wheel is acting. The Wheel has some hard to be understood goals, that it can accomplish if not in one way so in other, and the form of the implementation is not known before the implementation itself. The Wheel has only some necessary conditions that must happen in any way. The Wheel is very ... wasteful in what it does - e.g. when it wants a Dragon to be reborn, it spins many false dragons in; and achieving some prophecied thing with one person it sometimes drastically changes the fate of whole nations and even continents... When it wants to change something, It changes the environment, and many things related or unrelated to it... All that leads me to the suggestion, that Ishamael intentionally wants to act in the manner the Wheel is acting. And, if my thoughts about his style of thinking as EMT is not wrong, the Wheel's manner of action would be the ideal manner of action for such mind.

Maybe it was how EMT turned to the Shadow - he attempted to understand the Wheel's mechanism and decided that he understands the global Wheel processes a degree deeper then common human point of view; then he tried to use his capabilities to understand the new occured after the Bore DO, and he understood it too good, and he saw another variant of the global interpretation, equal in the rank to his. He investigated it for to see it's range, and was catched in it's context, so that it begun his own. Too deep insight in another context of meanings really can make this context your own.

Ishamael is not the type of leader who wants to control every detail of his actions. He was never a general even when the Shadow was in open war against the whole other world. THere are no indications of him being a province governor. Rather he uses to have capable subordinates as military leaders, administrators etc. He punishes his subordinates very severely for failures and disobeyance, but even his ordinary darkfriends have too much self-initiative. My impression is that Ishamael tolerates and even encourages it. His wish is rather more different actions in the direction he wants, then precise but small in number actions. His power and his conrtol are based on the extent of the activity, and also on creating dynamical balance. He is prefering to have a force to make a pressure and another force to ballance the first force, and third force to can intervene between the first two forces... etc. Interesting is, that Forsaken who are straithforward, who make their perimeter of defence and fight for their positions, who can be localized, these Forsaken die first or suffer the greatest damages. Best surviving are until now Graendal, whos style is to manipulate the context (but in lesser extent then Ishamael's plans) and in some degree Demandred, who is also IMHO jiggling with incompatible between each other forces, i.e. who are closer to Ishamael's style.

IMO it's Ishamael who insisted on the elimination of Herid Fel. Fel did not so much for Rand, he gave very dim answers, when he was there to give it. But what Fel did was different global interpretation of the fight between the Light and Shadow, and about the turnings of the Wheel. Fel allways stressed metaphysical aspect of the problem. E.g. about the Aelfinns' answer about the Cleansing, Fel saw in that "correspondence between principles of higher philosophy and the philosophy of nature" (sp). Most general, meta-things. But that's another style of global interpretation. And if I'm right, for Ishamael exactly the style of global interpretation is the most important thing.

Moridin's reaction against Fain is also significant. Fain is "very annoying" and Morridin finds him important enough for to be mentioned at all, but he uses all the phrases that can make him look unsignificant. Fain is an wildcard out of Moridin's control, but that's not fatal, Moridin can use chaos-machines out of his control for his purposes. The problem with Fain is that Mordeth-ingredient has his own style of Evil. I.e. Fain is seeding another metaphysical, global principle of Evil, shifting away the Shadow's principle. So he is dangerous for Moridin, but Moridin cannot confess that for not to break his fight for making valid only his interpretation.

Another implication is, that now Shadow's efforts in preparations for Tarmon Gaidon would be focused on assuring that the Dragon and his main allies will have the required style of actions. The fight is about the spiritual conditions of the future meeting one on one of Rand and DO. So, for example, Cadsuane/Sorilea goal to teach Rand to laugh and cry again is something of primary significance. Alivia's presence with her child-like innocence combined with full experience in acting in dangerous situations (i.e. violence and danger are not treat for her mind-of-child) can be a chance for Rand to survive the spiritual fight against Moridin (In his two first victories against Baalzamon Rand relied on his most basic and simple attachments). It's critical for Rand to see the global picture not in the style Morridin wants it.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-11-19

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
You're reminding me why i was only a mediocre student of philosophy... at best.
i've always thought that when someone undergoes a radical shift in their behavior/philosophy, it is often a 180-degree shift. Take Graendal, for example. Ishamael is a nihilist (that's a gross oversimplification, but it works.) So by this 180-shift theory you could postulate that Elan Morin Tedronai's philosophy was concerned with Life for Life's sake. with books on meaning, reason, etc, that makes sense. EMT was more interested in the esoteric mechanisms of existance, and that can be argued to be life for life's sake.
Even with a 180-shift, the underlying thought processes often remain the same, as you've said. With Graendal, no one could live up to her strict aceticism. So now no one can live up with her level of hedonism. It's a 180-shift, but her mindset that she is the best and no one can come close remains the same.
As for Ishamael/Moridin being more than half insane, his philosophy may be the root of that. Someone who is so controlling and working with convoluted, multi-layered, and often contradictory plots can easily get lost within his own mind.

2

nick: 2004-11-26

I felt that the part of the description of Ishamaels work that says 'No copies survive, and perhaps the world is better off for it, considering the circumstances.' could mean that it was Ishamaels own philosophical theories that lead him to turn to the Shadow. If this was the case then it would make sense to be glad that none of his work survived the breaking. In case the reasoning behind it would encourage others to reach the same conclusions as Ishamael and dedicate their lives to the victory of the Shadow.

3

a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-30

Yes, I really meant a 180-shift in conclusions but with remaining of the same mindset. As about the Life for Life's sake to be EMT's original creed, it's possible. I haven't thought about that. Usually real-world philosophers who's main idea can be described as Life for Life's sake try to express their ideas clear for everybody (what was definitely not the case with Elan Morin), and also they usually don't dedicate their main books to topics like "Meaning" and "Reason". Usually but not allways, so Nietzsche described his main creed as Life for Life's sake and he could match in lot of EMT's characteristics.

When I was writing this theory, I was thinking about another possible creed of EMT: the belief that the Pattern manages to move the history towards more and more Good, a Pattern guaranteed progress, something closer to e.g. Hegel. When the Bore disproved this view Elan Morin could easy turn to the radically opposite opinion.

And, Nick,

that "No copies survive, and perhaps the world is better off for it, considering the circumstances." is written by an author who doesn't have any idea what the EMT's philosophy was, and who knows only that Ishamael was a bad guy later. So the quote means "we don't know what it was but I don't care I don't know because Ishamael doesn't deserve us to remember even his good deeds in the past". But if EMT's early writtings were useful for people to turn to the Shadow, Ishamael would rather act for advertizing his philosophy and encouraging the Darkfriends read it, while the fact is that Ishamaels looks totally uninterested in his previous philosophy's future and even never mentions "Mealing" and "Reason" his lost books were dedicated to.

4

terez: 2005-02-19

I noticed that this theory didn't elicit a great deal of response, and I surmise that is because of the legnth of it rather than the lack of interest. It was awfully long-winded relative to the gist that was reached. But, to add my own thoughts, all students of philosophy understand that the close observation of the nature of existence and the patterns of reason within the human mind constitute a cryptonite of the ego, hard core. It is easy to understand that one who could comprehend these concepts would leap at the chance for Purpose. I don't see any real reason that EMT would have undergone a change in his philosophy - it is fairly difficult to throw off those brain patterns once they are formed, especially if they were as succint as RJ has painted them to be. Either the DO, once exposed, called to EMT and offered this Purpose, or EMT sought the source himself seeking his Purpose. His Forsaken buddies have commented that sometimes it seems he believes he IS the DO. I'm sure that he does not believe any such thing, for he knows what the DO is, and the DO's Purpose and Power. But surely he realizes that his Forsaken buddies' games are child's play in comparison to his own, and the DO also realizes this, and they are both equally satisfied with Ba'alzamon's role in the world, and his ability to carry out what the other Forsaken cannot. Perhaps his pre-turning philosophies were removed from existence because of Ishamael's jealous posessiveness of that knowledge. He simply no longer wished to share it with the world.

5

drisco: 2010-03-03

I think the author's purpose in mentioning these three works is to demonstrate EMT's decent to the shadow in his days leading up to the creation of the bore. It seems that EMT was a good kid growing up but as he gained more and more knowledge and relied more and more on logic he became disillusioned with the creator. This may even be a metaphor that relates to the genesis story of the garden of edan. EMT ate too much from the tree of knowledge so to speak. The first book mentioned "Analysis of Perceived Meaning" represents his own inner struggle to find meaning in his life and the world around him. The word "perceived" seems to imply that he is no longer able to find meaning where he had previously. This may refer to him not necessarily moving towards the shadow but perhaps moving away from the creator. The second book mentioned, "Reality and the Absence of Meaning," further drives this point home. EMT really put a lot of thought into the "perception" of meaning and after long lonely nights of contemplation he came to the conclusion that meaning does not exist. Without meaning there is no reason to live. If EMT's thoughts on this were universal (which he probably believed) then really there's no point for anyone to live and there's no real point to the wheel of time to continue turning. I would imagine that this book was not very well received by the critics. That might be part of the reason it was not widely read. The third book mentioned, "Disassembly of Reason," indicates that EMT turned logic against itself. This represents his last step in a journey that he had been on for years. Now he is left without meaning, without reason (which was probably the last place he found purpose) and perfectly primed to become the greatest champion of the DO when the bore to the DO's prison was created.