osmology of the Wheel and the Dark One's Prison
by PianOmega47: 2005-08-03 | 4 out of 10 (19 votes)
I am assuming two things. Firstly, that Robert Jordan created the story, and is thus always right by definition. Secondly, if a character says they remember something, I assume it actually happened unless we have reason to think otherwise.
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These are some of the facts we work from:
The Creator and the Dark One are two equal and opposite beings of immense power. Their power might be said to be infinite, but the concept of infinite power is difficult enough when there's only one such being in play. Having two would require a thorough definition of what effect they have on each other. So for simplicity, we won't call them infinitely powerful for now.
The history of the world is an infinitely repeating cycle of seven ages. The details of the repeated ages aren't necessarily identical; Rand al'Thor may have been named Gerrard Butler the last time the third age came around. But the overall pattern of events remains the same.
The Creator made the pattern of the world, and sealed the Dark One away from it. The Dark One is not part of the pattern, nor is he created. The Creator is unwilling to interfere in our world.
The Dark One can escape from his prison given certain circumstances. If this occurs, he can break the cycle of ages, and remake the world to his will. He has been attempting to do this since the beginning of time, if there was such a beginning. The Dragon (Rand's soul, in whatever body) is somehow vitally important to this.
The Dark One can't step outside of time.
There are multiple diverging realities, but only one Dark One. If he escapes in one, he escapes in all.
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I'm going to try and lay out the issues that these basic statements bring up in my mind. I didn't have a plan for this before I started writing, but it seems to have taken on a life of its own. I don't claim that all of this is original work, either, so if I've borrowed from you, thanks! And if I address your theory specifically to say I don't like where it leads... sorry!
The books imply that the Wheel is an infinite cycle, without beginning or end. Unfortunately, this conflicts with what we know of the universe we live in, which certainly appears to be winding down. There are also more local difficulties: extinction-level meteor impacts, stellar aging, and exhaustion of natural resources all dictate that the same world can't be inhabited for eternity without the equivalent of divine intervention. There are three basic possibilities: 1) our theories are wrong, and our universe can last forever; 2) the Wheel of Time universe is finite, and whoever says otherwise is just wrong; 3) the Wheel of Time universe is not our universe. Obviously since we're dealing with a fantasy series it doesn't have to be our universe, but according to RJ the third age is intended to be a possible past/future of our own world. So let's eliminate 3.
Thermodynamics is the main issue with our universe lasting forever. All closed systems ever observed tend toward entropy, and we tend to assume that the universe is a closed system. However, there could conceivably be circumstances in which a closed system tended towards order, and the universe might not be a closed system. Those are random ideas that have absolutely no evidence, but we're talking fantasy. Especially with the Power around, there's no physical reason our universe couldn't last forever. Getting around proton decay might be a trick, I'm not completely clear on my m-theory. But we can worry about that in 10^40 years. Local issues are a bit more of a problem.
Whether the timeline of the WoT universe is finite or infinite, there is certainly a cycle of history. I started out thinking that maybe that wasn't true, that crazy Ishmael (big philosopher, remember) wrote a book about it in the Age of Legends and it just became accepted as fact. But the cycle is definitely there. This is evidenced by the fact that Artur Hawkwing recognized the Dragon, and referenced fighting with and against him on occasions beyond number. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more.” Short of Hawkwing lying or having false memories, neither of which we have any reason to assume, we must believe that there is some cycle to history in the Wheel of Time. If one were to assume that “times beyond number” means at least a hundred cycles, and that an age lasts 3000 years on average, we get a reasonable lower bound for the age of the cycle of about five million years.
However, I don't believe that any planet's natural resources could possibly last five million years in a mineable form (like Elayne's alum deposits), with at least several thousand of those years inhabited by an industrialized society. They'd all be mined out, and spread around the planet. However, we can summon up the Power once again to solve our problems. At some point in the cycle, the Power is used to bring humanity new deposits of minerals, to wipe out any significant asteroid capable of hitting Earth within the next cycle, and every few billion years, to fix up the sun. Channeling is great for insoluble problems!
(As a side note, if there's no particular significance to what planet the cycle occurs on, it's also possible that instead of fixing our own world, humanity actually Travels to an entirely new one. Moghedien implied that such travel did occur during the Age of Legends. Makes me wonder whether there are any colonies out there.)
So with channeling, there's no physical reason the WoT universe can't be infinite in both directions. However, the lack of a beginning to history causes serious issues. One is that of the Dark One's continuous attempts to escape his prison. If the Dark One can actually escape under certain realizable circumstances, then is it not reasonable that in an infinite sequence of random events, he would have already done so? The three main possibilities are that 1) the Dark One can never actually escape, and keeps trying because he a) doesn't know, or b) doesn't care; 2) the Dark One has escaped, but his escape does not permanently destroy the cycle of time, due to a) divine intervention, or b) the Dark One not actually desiring to end the cycle; and 3) the universe had a definite beginning, and the Dark One has only made a countable number of attempts to escape, all of which have been foiled. If we take the pronouncements that there are neither beginnings nor endings to the wheel of time to be the word of Robert Jordan on the nature of the universe he's writing about, then 3 is eliminated, leaving 1 and 2.
There are several possible reasons for the Dark One to try to escape, even though it can never happen. He may not realize the impossibility of the task. Perhaps despite his immense power his memory is somehow flawed, and he can not recall the infinitude of past failures. It's also possible that even though he knows he can't escape, he finds the side-effects of the attempt desirable. Maybe he just likes death and destruction. (And a great cry of “YA THINK!?” did issue forth...)
If the Dark One can indeed escape, however, we almost have to throw all our assumptions out the window. His stated goal is to break the cycle and remake the universe to his specifications. But if that's the case, then the only ways the cycle can continue after his escape are if breaking free doesn't automatically get him his way, or if his desired structure of the universe is identical to its current one! If the escape is always undone, the wheel remade, and the Dark One re-imprisoned, then the effect is identical to his escape being impossible. Pragmatically, we can disregard this possibility. This is good, because otherwise it would bring up the question of how the Dark One could have been forcibly imprisoned by his equal in the first place, and I'd really prefer not to deal with that.
The remaining possibility is that the Dark One can escape, on the occasions he has escaped he has remade the world as he wanted, but that this new universe was identical to the old one! This would require a significant stretch of the language involved: the Dark One does want to destroy the cycle, but only so he can make it again; the wheel is without beginning, but only in the sense that it has always had a nearly identical predecessor. However, it's not totally unworkable. One theory compared this to the Dark One and the Creator playing a cosmic game, taking turns seeing who could imprison the other in creation for the longest time. The imprisonment would thus be somewhat voluntary, explaining how the Creator could imprison a being of equal power.
Given all our basic assumptions, it seems that 2b is our most likely candidate for the reality of the situation. The Dark One and the Creator are playing a game, and all us little humans are only significant in a utilitarian sense. Basically, they're both really sucky gods.
However, logical as it seems, I find this solution unsatisfying. Under the above, all Rand's friends may die if he fails, but y'know, who cares, they'll come back around sooner or later. It's all happened before, and it'll happen again, no big deal. So let's add a new basic assumption: that I will find the explanation of the situation dramatically satisfying. (Hey, it's my article.) If the Dark One has already escaped an infinite number of times, but is still imprisoned, then his escape has no lasting consequence. If the Dark One can't escape or doesn't want to, then Rand's actions have no consequence. I find both unsatisfying. Therefore, the Dark One CAN escape and permanently destroy reality as we know it, but has never done so in the past, due to the actions of the Dragon. For this to be the case, he must not have made an infinite number of attempts. Therefore, we can conclude that the Wheel of Time MUST have had a beginning. The opening of each book can be called a metaphor or poetic license.
Unfortunately, having gotten this far, we seem to have wasted our time. The idea of an infinite future has the same problem as that of an infinite past: the Dark One will eventually escape! The Dragon's actions only delay what is eventually inevitable, and the universe's unending nature guarantees its own eventual destruction.
It's a riddle. The Dragon must win, but not permanently. He must win every time, eternally, but there must still be a chance of his losing. How can there be an eternal battle, which either side can win, but which one side always will? How can I flip a fair coin infinite times, and have it always come up heads? (Without being Mat.) I believe that the answer lies in the nature of free will.
One of the major theological debates goes as follows: if God knows what I will do before I do it, in what sense do I have free will? God knew before the creation of the world that I'd be sitting here typing this article. So how can I be said to be doing it of my own will? If I decided not to type it, would God then be wrong? Or would he simply have known that I'd never type it? Many explanations have been proposed, including from God's lack of foreknowledge, our lack of free will, and even the ability to affect the past knowledge of God. But the most consistent one has always been totally outside the box.
There are two definitions of the word “eternal”. One is that something exists without end in either direction of time, like the Dark One seems to. The other, though, is that something exists totally outside of time. God didn't know what I was going to decide before creation, because for him, there is no “before”. God does not sit here watching, saying “Knew you'd do that. Knew you'd do that.” God does not exist in time at all. He exists outside of time, and sees all things that I have ever done or will do at a glance. I have free will, but God already sees how that shapes the future. I feel like I didn't explain that very well, but I hope the idea got across.
The Dark One once commented to Demandred that “EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME”. If the Dark One is unable to step outside of time, it is implied that the Dark One exists within time. This assumes that the Dark One's statement is true, and that he has no reason to lie to Demandred about his abilities, but I see no reason for him to lie at that juncture. And herein I believe we find our solution.
The Creator and the Dark One once (insofar as that has meaning) both existed outside of time. Time did not exist. For whatever reason, the Creator created the Pattern and trapped the Dark One within it. The Pattern is infinite, maybe even in both directions, but the Creator is outside of time and sees all of it at once. Events aren't random. The Pattern is woven so that there is infinite variation, and so that there is free will. The Dark One CAN escape. But the Creator wove the entire infinity of the Pattern, even all the alternate worlds, in such a way that it would never happen. And the Dark One, being within time, can never know that this is the case.
The Dark One's prison is time itself. He CAN escape. But he never will.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-19
The first thing that came to mind when I read your theory was Jordan's answer to a recent question at Dragon Con, which I attended. An individual asked a question about the universe, and in essence Jordan told him the sun would never go nova in this world. He spoke about the infinite nature of the wheel, and unfortunately, I think he implied our universe is not the universe of Randland. While Randland's cultures and myths have been taken from our world, Jordan created a universe that would repeat itself with each turn, with slight variations. The universe doesn't seem to be held to the same laws we witness on a one for one basis. I will find the quote when I have time, unless someone does it for me... :) And, to the other point, I don't believe the Dark One can escape. I think he tries, but as a servant of time, he does not have the same aspect of knowledge that the Creator has. The Creator allows for the prison to be created, and then he allows for it to be sealed. In essence, the Dragon has done what the Dragon has done in a similar or almost exact way, turn after turn of the Wheel, over and over again.
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Anubis: 2005-09-19
I wonder if the cyclical nature of time is responsable for the one power.
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William Seeker: 2005-09-19
Several points.
1. I don't know if RJ thought quite that much about it. He came up with acool idea for a story worked out a few details and wrote it (partialy, in actualality he's still writing it).
2. It's a paradox. to some of these there are no answers. But they're still true.
3. The wheel has been turning for an infinte amount of time (because before ther was no time)and the Dark One figured that the only way to excape was to use this to his advantage. He's been waiting for eternity, messing with diffrent varibles, trying to get the wheel to turn into just the right situation so he can get out. Finaly the Wheel has turned to a point of change, where he thinks he might just get out. That's why there's the Dragon, that's why there's Rand. He's there to try and stop that evetuality from coming to be, and if it does to send the DO back to where he came from.
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snakes-n-foxes: 2005-09-19
Nice theory, well argued. Though isn't the DO was imprisoned outside of the pattern, if not time itself (hence SG being located near a thinness in the pattern).
Tamyrlin, somewhere in the first few books, the girls (Nynaeve I think) were in the dream world, and in the Panarch's Palace. Nynaeve saw (paraphrasing) "In a display marked 'Artefacts from an earlier age...A silver metallic object, but softer, like a three pointed star within a circle. Pride and vanity radiated from it" That describes perfectly the Mercedes Benz symbol.
5
Callandor: 2005-09-19
**The Creator and the Dark One are two equal and opposite beings of immense power.**
Off the bat, I would say no. The Dark One is more than likely infurior in strength/power simply because he is the one imprisoned. But it's probably close enough to practically be considered equal.
**The books imply that the Wheel is an infinite cycle, without beginning or end.**
No, there definately was a beginning -- a First Moment. Whether there's an end is a question that rests on humanities choices. But it does have the potential to be an infinately lasting universe.
**Unfortunately, this conflicts with what we know of the universe we live in, which certainly appears to be winding down.**
So, what? The One Power breaks many laws of physics -- all we do is not draw parallels to physics, or realize they will not be complete parallels.
**However, I don't believe that any planet's natural resources could possibly last five million years in a mineable form (like Elayne's alum deposits), with at least several thousand of those years inhabited by an industrialized society.**
As you so said: it's a fantasy series.
** If the Dark One can actually escape under certain realizable circumstances, then is it not reasonable that in an infinite sequence of random events, he would have already done so? The three main possibilities are that 1) the Dark One can never actually escape, and keeps trying because he a) doesn't know, or b) doesn't care; 2) the Dark One has escaped, but his escape does not permanently destroy the cycle of time, due to a) divine intervention, or b) the Dark One not actually desiring to end the cycle; and 3) the universe had a definite beginning, and the Dark One has only made a countable number of attempts to escape, all of which have been foiled.**
Again, there was a beginning. There was a "First Moment."
Option 3 is your answer. The Dark One has tried a number of times to get free -- it's just that number is vast.
Also, who says that these are random events? The Pattern is one of the most structured course of events that I know of (short of outright pre-determination forever). The only "randomness" is the small degree of free will that people have in very small matters, that the Pattern will accept and just keep weaving on.
Yes, these small amounts of change build up to errors, and start to through the Pattern off -- but that is what the Heroes of the Horn and ta'veren are for: to correct the balance.
**Therefore, the Dark One CAN escape and permanently destroy reality as we know it, but has never done so in the past, due to the actions of the Dragon. For this to be the case, he must not have made an infinite number of attempts. Therefore, we can conclude that the Wheel of Time MUST have had a beginning. The opening of each book can be called a metaphor or poetic license.**
Bingo.
**The idea of an infinite future has the same problem as that of an infinite past: the Dark One will eventually escape! The Dragon's actions only delay what is eventually inevitable, and the universe's unending nature guarantees its own eventual destruction.**
Only if you're a cynic. There is the perfectly possible outcome that people make the correct choices, all the time, and the Wheel continues to turn for all time.
**If the Dark One is unable to step outside of time, it is implied that the Dark One exists within time. This assumes that the Dark One's statement is true, and that he has no reason to lie to Demandred about his abilities, but I see no reason for him to lie at that juncture. And herein I believe we find our solution.**
No.
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
He's not apart of time. Time is the Wheel (hence, Wheel of Time). Both the Creator and the Dark One are seperate and beyond the Wheel of Time and Pattern completely.
What the Dark One is saying is that even though he is not subject to time, he still has to work within the constraints of the Pattern and time in order to bring back his servants. Hence, when they are balefired, he simply cannot go back through the past to bring them back.
**For whatever reason, the Creator created the Pattern and trapped the Dark One within it.**
No, again, the Creator and the Dark One are seperate of the Wheel and of the Pattern. The Creator sealed the Dark One in his prison over ~there~ and made the Pattern over ~here~. Seperate and distinct.
**Events aren't random. The Pattern is woven so that there is infinite variation, and so that there is free will. The Dark One CAN escape. But the Creator wove the entire infinity of the Pattern, even all the alternate worlds, in such a way that it would never happen. And the Dark One, being within time, can never know that this is the case.**
1. The Creator does not and did not weave the Pattern. The Creator did two things:
A. Imprisoned the Dark One.
B. Set up the system of reality for the universe (One Power, Wheel, Pattern).
Once that was done, the Creator left. He didn't do anything after or since.
2. What happens is that the Wheel takes a soul, places it into a body, and this co-existance of body and soul results in a thread, and that thread and its actions are apart of the Pattern. All the Pattern is, is the totality of all threads in existance (IE: the Pattern is "reality" in the truest since of the word).
3. Of course events aren't random -- hence the Pattern of the Age ;) But some events are minimal enough so that free will can be used and the Pattern simply takes it in and continues weaving. These add up, and need to be corrected, and to do that a Hero of the Horn is reborn to correct the balance of the Pattern.
**The Dark One's prison is time itself. He CAN escape. But he never will.**
We hope he never will. But it's not certain. Humanity can make the correct choices all the time and never fall to the Shadow -- or it could make the absolute wrong choices and fall right away. It all in the end rests on the choices of people, even with that tiny degree of free will that there is.
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Ashaman Samuel: 2005-09-19
I like the idea that the whole universe is just some kind of cosmic game with the DO and the Creator just seeing who can create a universe better than the other, each always trying to outdo the other. Another thing that might by some stretch of the imagination point to this. The Wheel of Time is all about balance. So what if the ultimate culmination of balance in the universe is that the DO is imprisoned for half of eternity, and the Creator is imprisoned for half of eternity, but not necessarily consecutively just such that if one stepped away the whole thing would be half black and half white. Of course the whole idea of half of eternity is kind of silly because half of eternity is... eternal. Just my little pet hope of a theory.
7
silverwolf: 2005-09-20
I would have to agree that the Creator is outside of time, and that the DO is trapped within it. If the Creator were not outside of time, why would he refuse to intervene in time (EotW, "I WILL NOT TAKE PART"). In the same way, if the DO was not imprisoned by time, why try to destroy it? These two things, in and of themselves, suggest that the DO is not the equal of the Creator as has been said in the series--rather, the DO is seemingly infinitely more powerful than humans, but still finite in his power (obviously, since he cannot escape from his prison without human aid). A comparison is available in the Forsaken--when they first escaped, they were believed to be all but invincible, all but omniscient. Obviously, they are not, and they are not so far above the rest of the channeling world as it was believed. Like rumor, legend exaggerates, explaining how the DO could go from extrememly powerful to "infinitely powerful" over the course of the turnings of the wheel.
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Anubis: 2005-09-20
The only problem is that the Wheel has not been turning for an infinite ammount of time. There was a moment of creation. True, it could be eleventy gazillion years in the past, but it is a specific length of time in the past.
9
sirach3311: 2005-09-20
my first reaction was.... "so was all this JUST a test?!?!" i was thinking, omg (or Oh Light! if you want) so the Creator trapped the Dark One with the threat that he'd break out to continually test us and strengthen us??! it corresponds to some people's views on Satan, that the Prince of Earth(that's him) was placed here to continually test us so as to let us fully appreciate the fullness of the light of Heaven (not that there's a heaven in Randland...)I suddenly sympathize with the DO, he'll never escape:( and all the trouble was to keep humans on their toes..
Anyway, this was a nice theory, it actually let me start thinking on aspects of the WoT that I've taken for granted. Especially what you said,
**However, I don't believe that any planet's natural resources could possibly last five million years in a mineable form (like Elayne's alum deposits), with at least several thousand of those years inhabited by an industrialized society. They'd all be mined out, and spread around the planet.**
I actually started thinking on that..
10
Traveller: 2005-09-20
1st I would like to say thanx and welldone for giving such an interesting read, but I do want to say (although I hate it when people say this to me, so sorry!) that you are looking to deep into this. In my opinion, you've got to allow more poetic license/metaphor, to steal your phrase, to what everyone says- from Robert Jordan to the Dark One. Things like their unoiverse being our universe seems like something Jordan put in for food for thought rather than to a real point in the story, ya know?
Anyway, thankyou again, I really enjoyed reading this one!
11
JakOShadows: 2005-09-20
For the most part, I like your reasoning on the theory. There are just a few details I think are off. Now that I think about it, wouldn't make more sense for the creator to be inside the pattern, and the DO outside. Let me clarify. The DO cannot touch the pattern or shape the pattern, so he is imprisoned outside. Now let's say the creator is inside, and hence as control of the one power which turns the wheel and can therefore touch the pattern (although he doesn't specifically go in and help). Like in Matrix Reloaded, when Neo meets the creator of the system, only not on such a technological scale, more god like powers instead. And when the DO is trying to break free, he is actually trying to take control of the pattern by going inside the wheel and gain the power to move about wherever he wants. Right now its seems like his prison is in space and is like an infinite nothingness, and he can't touch anything tangible or real. So his goal is to be able to do that. Hence, remake the pattern in his image.
12
Balinor: 2005-09-20
Nice bit of sophistry, there, but I have a problem with a few of your assumptions:
1) Who said the Dark One is the equal of the Creator? Doesn't the fact that the Creator imprisoned the DO in the first place indicate that the Dark One is NOT as powerful as the Creator?
2) I have always assumed that the Pattern IS the DO's prison. The catechism that the people of Randland always recite is: The Creator imprisoned the Dark One and all of the Forsaken at the moment of Creation. Well, at the moment of Creation, wasn't the Creator making the Pattern? Obviously, the Forsaken weren't imprisoned at that time, but that's beside the point. Perhaps that is why the Pattern would be remade by the Dark One in his image, because if he actually managed to escape, it would be because the Pattern (his prison) itself has been destroyed. I think this also means that everyone within the Pattern (including the Chosen) would die at the moment the DO escapes (of course, he's not telling them that).
3) The Wheel of Time is a work of fiction, a piece of literature. In order for the plot to advance, there must be conflict. The main conflict in the WOT books is that the DO is trying to break free. If the DO couldn't actually break free, there would be no conflict, and therefore the main plot device of the series would be in serious jeopardy. The conflict only works if everyone (characters AND readers) believes that the conflict is real. Therefore, the DO is ABLE to escape, but hasn't yet, and probably won't (because that would be a really sucky ending to a great series).
Not a bad theory for all the work you put into it, though.
13
Jalwin Moerad: 2005-09-20
I see a slight hitch in the theory. Time only exists once something that can be affected by time exists, therefore the first creation of matter also instigates time. So, if Randland was the first world created, no problems. But what about all of the other worlds that exist? In COT, Rand thinks:
"The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond." If that is so, and I will assume as much, then there is a problem, because a dark one exists for all of those planets. Now, if the dark one is trapped within time, then all the dark ones would be trapped, eventually, together, unless there was a separate dimension of time for each planet. And if that was so, how did Aes Sedai in the AOL reach them without fundamentally destroying time within their own universe?
14
Wompat: 2005-09-20
i have a question, this occured to me while reading william seeker's response, and the beginning of the theory.
if the creator is unwilling to interfere, which we know to be true, how can the soul of the dragon be the champion of the light. in other words, wouldn't the fact that rand is DESTINED to fight the DO be seen as intervening?
15
Callandor: 2005-09-20
** Now that I think about it, wouldn't make more sense for the creator to be inside the pattern, and the DO outside. Let me clarify. The DO cannot touch the pattern or shape the pattern, so he is imprisoned outside.**
Again, both are outside and seperate from the Wheel and the Pattern.
**) I have always assumed that the Pattern IS the DO's prison. The catechism that the people of Randland always recite is: The Creator imprisoned the Dark One and all of the Forsaken at the moment of Creation. Well, at the moment of Creation, wasn't the Creator making the Pattern?**
No. Again, the Dark One and the Creator are both seperate and outside of the Wheel and the Pattern. Neither is apart of the Wheel or the Pattern.
The Creator imprisoned the Dark One (in an actual prison he made, not the Pattern), and then created the Wheel and the Pattern and the One Power.
**I see a slight hitch in the theory. Time only exists once something that can be affected by time exists, therefore the first creation of matter also instigates time. So, if Randland was the first world created, no problems. But what about all of the other worlds that exist?**
Think of them as completely seperate universes in all forms.
**And if that was so, how did Aes Sedai in the AOL reach them without fundamentally destroying time within their own universe?**
Again, it's not the Creator simply making another world. It's another universe so to speak. Randland isn't Earth, and Randland 2.0 isn't Mars, and both run on different systems that the Creator made. Randland is one universe -- Randland 2.0 is another.
**if the creator is unwilling to interfere, which we know to be true, how can the soul of the dragon be the champion of the light. in other words, wouldn't the fact that rand is DESTINED to fight the DO be seen as intervening?**
Not at all. Intervening would only be if the Creator went in and deliberately changed what was going to happen. Rand was going to die, humanity was going to fall to the Dark One -- Creator steps in "Do over!" and everything is back to normal and fine. That doesn't happen.
The Creator designed the system for how this universe works. Because the Wheel decides when, where, and who a ta'veren/Hero of the Horn is born and neede, the destiny of them is pre-determined (except for very small events). But this isn't the Creator intervening; it's just the system doing what it's supposed to.
To use a computer example (since people love them), if you start up your computer, you're not intervening in it's processess. You just pushed the power button, and turned on the monitor, and it starts up and runs on it's own. If the computer were to have a virus, and begin to crash during start up, and you (somehow, doesn't matter how) stop this, then you are intervening. But if you had designed a program for the computer that would take care of the virus so that you don't have to do a thing, and you already had it installed, you haven't intervened -- the computer has just done it's job.
16
Anubis: 2005-09-21
When asked if human beings were unable to evolve RJ replied simply, No.
Meaning humans can evolve. In RJs mind the Dark One being free is humanitys problem. They created the mess, now they have to clean it up.
17
therobotbadger: 2005-09-21
Callandor
** No, there definately [sic] was a beginning -- a First Moment. **
**Again, there was a beginning. There was a "First Moment."**
Anubis
**The only problem is that the Wheel has not been turning for an infinite ammount of time. There was a moment of creation. True, it could be eleventy gazillion years in the past, but it is a specific length of time in the past.**
To quote every single book in the series, first chapter, first paragraph, "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time."
Where in that do you find an implication of any "First Moment"? No, the Wheel has always been. There is no way a Randlander could chronicle the history of his world to the Beginning, as that moment doesn't exist. The Wheel has an eternal past just as it has an eternal future. The Creator was able to do this paradoxical action because he exists in, and views, time differently than the Randlanders do, and also differently than we do. As in other threads, I don't want to get off on a tangent about higher-dimensional space (and actually, this would be one about higher-dimensional time, which is interesting...), so I won't explain my thoughts on the DO, his prison, or the Creator. Just know that the Creator's time is not our time, so he can decide to make a Pattern which has always been, off to t=-(infinity).
As I wrote this I just had a thought. Assuming that the DO and Creator experience time in the same way (which is not necessarily a valid assumption, but roll with it), I think we can infer that the DO would never break free of his prison. I mean, since the Creator could decide at one of his MOMENTS (capitalized to denote the difference from one of our moments) to make something that extends infinitely in both directions in time, i.e. with an infinite amount of our moments, then if the DO were to destroy it, he would destroy it infinitely in both directions in time at a MOMENT, not destroy it at some moment. He would destory all moments equally, not let some in the "past" continue to exist. Meaning that the existence of the Wheel and Pattern at one moment implies the existence of the Wheel and Pattern at EVERY moment. Thus, since he isn't out now, he never will be. Just a thought.
18
ThunderWalker: 2005-09-21
There are 7 ages, but we only know 2. The age of legends, where nobody knows the DO, the DO is set free, then imperfectly patched, and the current age where the DO makes his way free again, and is (possibly) perfectly sealed away again.
Is the DO totally free in any of the Ages? Or is he only partially free in two?
Does someone have a rundown of what occurs in varios ages?
19
padanfain: 2005-09-21
First, I really liked your theory. Good reasoning and even though I quite believed it I liked it.
How about this, the Creator and the DO are equal and they're playing a game. They throw dices or something and one of them is imprisoned. The one who isn't imprisoned create a world which the other is going to destroy. The imprisoned is trying to destroy the world and break free and since it's only a game it doesn't really matter if they kill all the people in the world or make them to horrible things - it's only a game. It's like playing a computer game, you shoot a lot of people kill innocent etc, stuff you wouldn't do in real life (at least most of us wouldn't). That's why the DO makes all this. And when he finally manage to escape then it's the other way around. The one who was imprisoned creates a world for the other one to break free from.
So the DO and the Creator is like titles that are switching place since the free one creates the world, therefore the Creator, and the imprisoned one tries to break free and do all possible things to do so and among those he makes people kill each other he convinces people to help him with a lot of promises etc. But most of the people believe thanks the one who created them and hates the one who is trying to destroy the world.
And in the books the DO says he wants to break the wheel of time and reamake the world into his own image (or something like that at least), of course he wanna do so - he wants do win the game.
Honestly, I didn't believe what I've been writing when i started but it kind of worked out quite fine. There's a lot of problems with this and some of them are cause I'm no pro in english and can't explain it good enough.
And by the way I don't believe RJ concentrated so much on the character of the universe when he started writing and we can argue about how it is how much we want cause there isn't any real explanation to why the DO is imprisoned etc...
Ok, know I've been wasting both mine (by writing it) and yours (by reading it) with this theory so that's about it. If you don't understand what I've been writing it might be cause I'm tired or because it just a waste of time.... :D
20
silverwolf: 2005-09-21
Rand being the champion of the Light doesn't have to be seen as interference from the Creator--it was planned from the time of creation, not an added detail thrown in after creation. It's like in the board game, Mousetrap--you build the machine and, once it's complete, you know what's going to happen once it's activated; it's a chain of events, of action and reaction, but you aren't changing it as it happens. In the same way, the Creator knew the DO would try to break free with human help, and he/she knew that the Light would need a champion to counter such an attempt; hence, he/she planned for Rand to be born, one of those unavoidable events in the pattern that happens no matter how unlikely it appears.
21
JakOShadows: 2005-09-22
I agree most everyone for in general. Sorry about that Callandor, I was reaching on that one. I do think the pattern does have something about keeping the DO from interfering though. Even if it is just at Shayul Ghul, that is how he is prevented from messing with the wheel of time and cyclical nature of time. And the creator is willing to sit back and be entertained by us trying to fight the DO and drink his cocktails. But I don't I go so far to say the DO will become the creator when he breaks free and vice versa. Because I would like to think that even though the creator doesn't take a hand in events, he treats Randlanders like a pet dog, guides them when needed but doesn't mourn a great loss over them. Whereas the DO wants to absolutely wants to control everything. He's not treating Randlanders as a pet, but as a slave who has to do what he says. They seem like two different types of personalities; good and evil. I don't see that playing into game where they switch roles. Because I don't think the creator could do what the DO does and the DO couldn't do what the creator does. They're more like two different Gods who have a difference of opinion and choose Randland as their battle grounds and use their gifts and talents to choose champions and help them win the fight. Not intervening, but guiding them to the right steps(hence the web of destiny).
22
Callandor: 2005-09-22
**Where in that do you find an implication of any "First Moment"? No, the Wheel has always been.**
No, it has not.
1. The Creator made the Wheel:
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.**
It obviously has never always been, since the Creator made it at one time.
2. There is mention of a first moment:
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 15 - Kinslayer
"Oh, I know the name you use now, Lews Therin. I know every name you have used through Age after Age, long before you were even the Kinslayer." Ba'alzamon's voice began to rise in intensity; sometimes the fires of his eyes flared so high that Rand could see them through the openings in the silk mask, see them like endless seas of flame. "I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment. You can never hide from me. Never! We are tied together as surely as two sides of the same coin. Ordinary men may hide in the sweep of the Pattern, but ta'veren stand out like beacon fires on a hill, and you, you stand out as if ten thousand shining arrows stood in the sky to point you out! You are mine, and ever in reach of my hand!"**
The Wheel has not always there -- it was created at one point, at one time.
23
hagglund: 2005-09-22
**No. Again, the Dark One and the Creator are both seperate and outside of the Wheel and the Pattern. Neither is apart of the Wheel or the Pattern.**
i always figured that quote about the only forces outside of the wheel etc just meant that they are by nature not of the wheel or the pattern. doesn't have to mean that time isn't the DO's prison and so on.
24
silverwolf: 2005-09-22
The Creator is outside of time; yes, at one point, he created the Wheel, but inasfar as time is concerned (arguably, time exists only as long as some part of reality as we know it exists), the Wheel could have always existed.
As far as the Ishamael quote, do you really believe that? Ishamael also claims the Dragon has fought for the shadow in past turnings, but RJ indicated otherwise during DragonCon ("You believed Ishamael?!") If nothing else, there is no way for Ishy to have known Rand that long--he can't have known Rand existed before he himself existed.
25
therobotbadger: 2005-09-22
** The Creator made the Wheel... The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, ...**
Paradoxical it may be, but the Creator is able to make something that extends infinitely in time, both forward and back. The fact that he made it doesn't mean there was a time when it wasn't, at least not according to the conception of time we have. (To the conception of time the Creator has, yes, but that's something different entirely.) The BWB says nothing about the Wheel having a First Moment.
**I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment.**
This quote comes from Ishamael, who is often described as being at least slightly insane. As we have often seen in this series, just because a character believes something doesn't make it so. Thus, Ishamael's mention of a First Moment doesn't mean that one actually exists. Plus, do you actually believe he could track down information from every single Age that ever was if the players in Age 3 [every iteration] can barely get information about the previous Age? I mean, even assuming that he could get information about Ages 1 and 4-7, once he got to the Age 3 prior to the AoL he would likely hit an informational void and be stuck. Thus, he must be speaking in a metaphor, as he could not literally have that information. This quote isn't valid as evidence of a First Moment due to its obvious methaphorical implication.
26
Callandor: 2005-09-23
**Because I would like to think that even though the creator doesn't take a hand in events, he treats Randlanders like a pet dog, guides them when needed but doesn't mourn a great loss over them.**
Why? Hate to break it to you, but from what we know Randland isn't special in anyway. The Creator creates the worlds. That's it. Favoritism? Pointless. He doesn't intervene -- ~EVER~. No guiding, no miracles, no nothing from the Creator.
The Creator did all that he was going to do at the moment of creation -- after that, he doesn't do a thing but move onto the next universe.
**i always figured that quote about the only forces outside of the wheel etc just meant that they are by nature not of the wheel or the pattern. doesn't have to mean that time isn't the DO's prison and so on. **
Uh, yes it does. See, the Wheel of Time, is time itself. The Dark One being seperate from the Wheel, and the Pattern, makes it impossible for his prison to be time.
**As far as the Ishamael quote, do you really believe that? Ishamael also claims the Dragon has fought for the shadow in past turnings, but RJ indicated otherwise during DragonCon ("You believed Ishamael?!") If nothing else, there is no way for Ishy to have known Rand that long--he can't have known Rand existed before he himself existed.**
RJ said his reaction to trusting Ishamael in the specific reference of saying the Dragon had turned. Ishamael has given truth before, so simply disregarding everything he says, is completely pointless.
In any case, no, I doubt Ishamael could trace the Dragon's blood line all the way back to the First Moment (specifically because there is no blood link between Rand and Lews Therin in the first place) -- all the quote does is show that there is a First Moment.
**The fact that he made it doesn't mean there was a time when it wasn't, at least not according to the conception of time we have.**
Uh, you are completely ignoring this point:
The Creator made the Wheel of Time. There was a point when there was, no time for if there was, he didn't need to make time in the first place.
**As we have often seen in this series, just because a character believes something doesn't make it so. Thus, Ishamael's mention of a First Moment doesn't mean that one actually exists.**
Translation: You don't believe it, because you don't want to, and because it completely ruins the theory.
**Plus, do you actually believe he could track down information from every single Age that ever was if the players in Age 3 [every iteration] can barely get information about the previous Age?**
No, as I said, I don't. That's not the reason I gave the quote in the first place.
**This quote isn't valid as evidence of a First Moment due to its obvious methaphorical implication.**
Uh, no. You say it isn't obvious because it doesn't sit nice with you and you want to ignore it. Btw, I wanted to make this point, since I knew people would automatically try to discredit the source. So, how about the wolves?
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 23 - Wolf brother
"They found out," Elyas replied, "I didn't. Not at first. That's always the way of it, I understand. The wolves find you, not you them. Some people thought me touched by the Dark One, because wolves started appearing wherever I went. I suppose I thought so, too, sometimes. Most decent folk began to avoid me, and the ones who sought me out weren't the kind I wanted to know, one way or another. Then I noticed there were times when the wolves seemed to know what I was thinking, to respond to what was in my head. That was the real beginning. They were curious about me. Wolves can sense people, usually, but not like this. They were glad to find me. They say it's been a long time since they hunted with men, and when they say a long time, the feeling I get is like a cold wind howling all the way down from the First Day."**
And, in case anyone wants to discredit wolves, remember this:
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 8 - Whirlpools of Color
"Seven," Elyas murmured in surprise. "Even an Aes Sedai would have to go some to do that. Most tales of Darkhounds are just people frightened by the dark." Frowning at the tracks crossing the smoothed stone, he shook his head, and sadness entered his voice when he said, "They were wolves, once. The souls of wolves, anyway, caught and twisted by the Shadow. That was the core used to make Darkhounds, the Shadowbrothers. I think that's why the wolves have to be at the Last Battle. Or maybe Darkhounds were made because wolves will be there, to fight them. The Pattern makes Sovarra lace look like a piece of string, sometimes. Anyway, it was a long time ago, during the Trolloc Wars as near as I can make out, and the War of the Shadow before that. Wolves have long memories. What a wolf knows is never really forgotten while other wolves remain alive. They avoid talking about Darkhounds, though, and they avoid Darkhounds, too. A hundred wolves could die trying to kill one Shadowbrother. Worse, if they fail, the Darkhound can eat the souls of those that aren't quite dead yet, and in a year or so, there'd be a new pack of Shadowbrothers that didn't remember ever being wolves. I hope they don't remember, anyway."**
So, quit dancing around the bush. Accept that there was a beginning. There was a First Moment. There was a start. The Wheel has not been turning forever.
27
JakOShadows: 2005-09-23
I was just curious about one thing. Why would the creator create time so that it goes forwards and backwards? Logic would tell me that the creator would just create time so that there is a first moment, but then there is no new beginnings after that because there is a pattern to everything. No beginning or ending except when the creator created this world. That seems to be the pattern. In the opening chapter, they mention something about it being a begginning, maybe that means that once something is started in never really ends. But that something can still begin. To tell you the truth, it comes down to your personal views, so its going to turn into a shouting match no matter what you do. But do enjoy while you can, sense the series will end in a few years anyways.
28
therobotbadger: 2005-09-23
** **The fact that he made it doesn't mean there was a time when it wasn't, at least not according to the conception of time we have.**
Uh, you are completely ignoring this point:
The Creator made the Wheel of Time. There was a point when there was, no time for if there was, he didn't need to make time in the first place. **
Imagine this: the Creator exists in time. He moves only forward in time. The Pattern does not exist. He decideds to create the Pattern. He Creates a time line that is different from his own, and extends off to infinity to his "left" and "right", relative to his time which goes "forward" and "back". It would be analogous to a two dimensional plot of time, with the Creator moving on the y-axis and the Universe infinitely extending on the x. (The question is whether or not the Universe has a projection on the y. Since you, Callandor, are so fond of the idea that the Creator will never, under any circumstances, interevene [which I'm not disagreeing with], perhaps you'd prefer the idea that, no, it doesn't. I.e. the Creator creates an infinite line on the x-axis then moves down the y, never to have contact with that line again.) Oh, and also, it may be possible for the Creator to move on the "x-axis" of time as well as the y, should he so choose, but the Universe can only ever move on the x, and only one direction.
** **As we have often seen in this series, just because a character believes something doesn't make it so. Thus, Ishamael's mention of a First Moment doesn't mean that one actually exists.**
Translation: You don't believe it, because you don't want to, and because it completely ruins the theory. **
My opinons on this matter have nothing to do with this particular theory. I saw something in your post I thought was not true and I challenged it. Had you said the same thing on any other thread I would have responded the same way.
Let me requote the section from my last post that made you question my argumentative integrity:
**I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment.**
** Me: **Plus, do you actually believe he could track down information from every single Age that ever was if the players in Age 3 [every iteration] can barely get information about the previous Age?**
Callandor: No, as I said, I don't. That's not the reason I gave the quote in the first place.
**Me: **This quote isn't valid as evidence of a First Moment due to its obvious methaphorical implication.**
Callandor: Uh, no. You say it isn't obvious because it doesn't sit nice with you and you want to ignore it.**
So, to recap those last two points, you don't believe Ishamael could have literally known Rand back to this "First Moment". Thus, you recognize that part of his statement was, in fact, metaphorical. And yet you do believe that his reference to the "First Moment" is valid. That would be analogous to someone saying "I followed Odin to Vallhalla", and you saying, "We know Odin doesn't exist, but this proves Valhalla does exist." If he was speaking in metaphor about knowing Rand back to this "First Moment" then that doesn't give us any evidence for this First Moment's existence.
I'll requote your quote to analyze it.
** **TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 23 - Wolf brother
"They found out," Elyas replied, "I didn't. Not at first. That's always the way of it, I understand. The wolves find you, not you them. Some people thought me touched by the Dark One, because wolves started appearing wherever I went. I suppose I thought so, too, sometimes. Most decent folk began to avoid me, and the ones who sought me out weren't the kind I wanted to know, one way or another. Then I noticed there were times when the wolves seemed to know what I was thinking, to respond to what was in my head. That was the real beginning. They were curious about me. Wolves can sense people, usually, but not like this. They were glad to find me. They say it's been a long time since they hunted with men, and when they say a long time, the feeling I get is like a cold wind howling all the way down from the First Day."** **
Yes, the wolves have long memories. And they convey to Elyas a feeling of there having been a long time since last hunting with men. The whole "First Day" reference is Elyas's perception of the impression they sent to him. Once again we see an instance of a character believing that there was a First Moment, but that doesn't make it so. The wolves didn't say that there was a First Day, only short-memoried humans have ever said that.
29
Anubis: 2005-09-23
ANYHOO just to hijack the discussion...
RJ has said that people can evolve, that they are not doomed to endlessly repeat the cycle. So I wonder if there is a chance that people might someday become enlightened without losing knowledge of the existance of Shai'Tan.
30
drz1649: 2005-09-23
"Why? Hate to break it to you, but from what we know Randland isn't special in anyway. The Creator creates the worlds. That's it. Favoritism? Pointless. He doesn't intervene -- ~EVER~. No guiding, no miracles, no nothing from the Creator."
It's not really related to this theory - which I think goes way over the top applying real world cosmogony to A FANTASY WORLD - but I always assumed the voice that spoke to Rand at the Battle of Tarwin Gap in TEOTW was that of the Creator.
===
p 758 TEOTW
"The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. "Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
NOT HERE.
===
Seems like a definite intervention and guiding to me. And who else would take to Rand like this? I don't think the DO is able to communicate directly outside SG, especially so early in the series with so many seals intact. Also too early for the memories of Lews Therin, and isn't consistent with those. Doesn't fit with anything Ishy would say. So the Creator is the only candidate. And it sets a precedent for him taking an active interest in his "Chosen One", the Dragon Reborn, Rand al'Thor.
31
JakOShadows: 2005-09-23
drz:
I agree with you there. He did guide him, but I always thought of intervention being when someone actual did something for them, not just telling him where to go. That seemed more like guiding, but you are right. He helped him. Some people are implying absolutely no help at all, which can't be true if he has ta'veren and the web of destiny. He means to guide them, but not intervene.
32
Callandor: 2005-09-24
**Imagine this: the Creator exists in time. He moves only forward in time.**
But that's not how it works.
The Wheel of Time is time itself. The Creator is just the Creator. He doesn't "exist" in time or any such thing. Time is the Wheel. What it weaves (the threads) into the Pattern is subject to time; anything else outside of the Wheel and Pattern (The Creator and Dark One) are NOT subject to time.
**The question is whether or not the Universe has a projection on the y. Since you, Callandor, are so fond of the idea that the Creator will never, under any circumstances, interevene [which I'm not disagreeing with], perhaps you'd prefer the idea that, no, it doesn't. I.e. the Creator creates an infinite line on the x-axis then moves down the y, never to have contact with that line again.**
Well, it's not an idea I'm fond of -- it's simple truth that RJ has told us time and again. You don't like it or it messes up what you're saying, too bad. That's a fact: the Creator does not intervene.
**I saw something in your post I thought was not true and I challenged it. Had you said the same thing on any other thread I would have responded the same way.**
You simply disagreed with the series. You were trying to discredit it. Why? Because it destroys your view of things. Too bad! This is how Randland truely works.
**So, to recap those last two points, you don't believe Ishamael could have literally known Rand back to this "First Moment". Thus, you recognize that part of his statement was, in fact, metaphorical.**
No, I believe Ishamael was bragging about something he couldn't do. And, again, completely seperate from the issue at hand: that there was a First Moment.
Here, lets put it into perspective. You say to someone, "I can see atoms." Most people will say you have a screw loose or that you're simply bragging about something you cannot do -- but that does not mean in anyway that atoms do not exist.
**which I think goes way over the top applying real world cosmogony to A FANTASY WORLD**
Uh, it's not. It's explaining how a fantasy world works through fantasy means.
**Seems like a definite intervention and guiding to me**
And what part of:
**I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.**
Do you not understand?
The Creator does not intervene.
**Some people are implying absolutely no help at all, which can't be true if he has ta'veren and the web of destiny. He means to guide them, but not intervene.**
How is it not true? The Creator does not determine who becomes ta'veren; the Wheel does that. The Web of Destiny -- the Wheel.
The Creator designed everything; and then will not intervene at all. That's the entire point. Designed everything, then left; after that, doesn't do anything to the world.
33
Anubis: 2005-09-24
Just to play devils advocate it is possible that the voice was not the Creator.
34
Shaitan13: 2005-09-24
I have to say that I find it hard to believe that RJ took the time and thought so far into the story line, it would have taken far too long to link every aspect of the story with its twin in the real world. It's literature, a fantasy series at that, you have to allow for creative freedom.
35
silverwolf: 2005-09-25
It's possible that the voice heard at the end of the EotW is not the creator's, but what would anyone gain from impersonating the creator that way? If something different had been said, you might have had an better argument.
Callandor--so you admit that the only quote in the series indicating a "First Moment" is from a madman making wild boasts? The very concept of a wheel (i.e.: a circle) is that of infinity--not zero to infinity, but infinity, with neither beginning nor end. If there was a moment in time at which the wheel was created, that moment would have to come again every seven ages. So unless you are arguing that the Wheel has a reset button that kicks in every so often regardless as to the events leading up to it, there was no "First Moment" within the timeline. (and if that "moment" was not within the timeline, by definition, it was not a "moment" at all :)
36
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-25
"Just to play devils advocate it is possible that the voice was not the Creator. "
Yes, but that's a massive longshot. I don't think you can build a case for it being anyone other than the Creator, but the Creator cannot be proven absolutely to have been repsonsible for the voice.
37
JakOShadows: 2005-09-25
I know Callandor. That was what I meant. I was just saying that he created the mechanisms that do that, so he only means to use minimal guidance to help them and not actually intervene. Unless your saying he just created those at his own whim. I would like to think he thought it through a little bit though. For example, if you download an antivirus program, your trying to help your computer detect and stop viruses, even though you aren't intervening individually every time.
38
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-25
Actually, Silverwolf, while not Callandor, I am going to start arguing for a reset button. Recently, at Dragon Con, Jordan answered a question about the Cosmology of his Universe, and the comment that stuck with me was his answer to a question about a sun going nova. Jordan's comment was that the sun would never go nova in his Universe. In an situation of repetitive Ages that build on each other in an infinite manner, a sun would go nova at some point in infinity. However, according to Jordan's answer, I would suggest there is a First Moment, and it gets repeated. Ages repeat themselves, because they are reset. Natural resources of this world never run out because of the reset. The only thing that appears to not have a reset, is the memory of the soul, which seems to be able to remember previous Turnings. I will see if I can go find that quote, so we can argue its implications....
Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?
Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time, if time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop..ah...it is really quite immense.
Question Part 2: So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?
Jordan: In this universe, no.
39
Callandor: 2005-09-26
**Callandor--so you admit that the only quote in the series indicating a "First Moment" is from a madman making wild boasts?**
No, if you read my posts, you will see I gave two quotes on the topic.
**So unless you are arguing that the Wheel has a reset button that kicks in every so often regardless as to the events leading up to it, there was no "First Moment" within the timeline.**
Reset button -- maybe. Very possible. Myself, I feel as if it was the First Moment "this" happened, and then the Wheel turned for the first Seven Ages, and when it came back to what would be the "First Moment" again, it was already the same set of circumstances (for every turning is not the exact same thing). So, in essesnce, it did repeat, but there was a definate beginning.
**That was what I meant. I was just saying that he created the mechanisms that do that, so he only means to use minimal guidance to help them and not actually intervene.**
No guidance -- nothing.
**For example, if you download an antivirus program, your trying to help your computer detect and stop viruses, even though you aren't intervening individually every time.**
But you wouldn't be downloading it -- it would be as if your computer came with the anti-virus detector, the spyware detector, the pop up blockers, etc. all in the beginning.
40
JakOShadows: 2005-09-26
Tam, I like the way you put that. I think that's what I've been trying to say but was such a clutz about it I couln't even understand what I was saying. But if you look at the opening lines of the first chapters, it does fit really well. They say it's not "the" beginning but "a" beginning. To me, that is interpreted as something come back to its start or source again. And if you think about, people describe other things in that way too. For example, rain. It starts with water evaporating, then goes in a continuous cycle, but water evaporating is still considered the beginning. The wording used here was just a bit different; that's all. Nice way of explaining though.
41
truth42: 2006-01-28
Just an interesting thought...if the wheel of time is infinite, and it has all happened before then why is it the last battle? Last battle implies finality, but it will happen again with 6 more turnings.
42
JakOShadows: 2006-01-29
truth42:
I see what your saying, but I always thought that it was interpreted differently. I always thought the LB refered to the LB of the age or whole cycle. Then the next age would start the whole process again. Kind of like a reference point, as explained in my last post.
43
Callandor: 2006-01-29
**Just an interesting thought...if the wheel of time is infinite, and it has all happened before then why is it the last battle? Last battle implies finality, but it will happen again with 6 more turnings.**
1. The Wheel has the potential to turn for an infinite amount of time. The Dark One can still break free any chance he gets, and destroy/remake the Wheel.
2. The simple answer is: because it's not the Last Battle. The Last Battle is a name given to a prophecized event by man. The event is the confrontation between the Dragon Reborn and the Dark One. If he fails, it would be the Last Battle -- but we know Rand actually wins, so it's not the Last Battle this time around. Next Age, it has the potential to be, though.
44
Darkelve: 2006-01-30
"Just an interesting thought...if the wheel of time is infinite, and it has all happened before then why is it the last battle? Last battle implies finality, but it will happen again with 6 more turnings."
I've been thinking about the design of the pattern for some time now, and I'm inclined to:
- see the wheel as some kind of giant weaving machine
- see the wheel as a thing that makes the pattern weave towards the next age
- see Tarmon Gaidon as the culmination of the weaving. For the next age to begin, the Dragon *must* die. It's the ultimate sacrifice, necessary for the wheel to continue weaving. Here, I am thinking also about Herid Fel's comment that 'unless the Creator created the Dark One's prison with a patch from the beginning'. My intuition tells me that the existence of the patch, the death of the Dragon and the beginning of a new Age, are all inexctricably connected to eachother. I think the Creator actually *did* create the DO's prison with a patch, because in this way he could ensure circularity of time.
45
Lord of the Dawn: 2006-01-30
That question was discussed somewhere else (I think it was the Message Boards) but what was the general consensus is: the Last Battle is not the "Last" Battle, it's a human name given to the battle, because most people in each Age don't know anything about the Ages repeating, them being reborn, so naturally they would think it is the Last Battle and for many of them it will be in that life.
46
Callandor: 2006-01-31
**the Last Battle is not the "Last" Battle, it's a human name given to the battle, because most people in each Age don't know anything about the Ages repeating, them being reborn, so naturally they would think it is the Last Battle and for many of them it will be in that life.**
This Last Battle is the one that is given it's name by man. It had the potential to be the actual Last Battle, but we know the Light wins this Age at least. The next Age can easily be the true Last Battle.
And the people of the world do know a bit about the Ages repeating and rebirth.
