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Home | Index | Archives | Help
ime Travel - It could work...
by Frenzy: 2005-11-18 | 5.07 out of 10 (15 votes)
Previous Categories: Philosophy and the Wheel of Time
Traveling. Men do it by taking two parts of the Pattern, bending them and boring a hole to make a Gateway between them.
LoC Chapter 27 - Gifts: Instead of the joke at her expense she more than half-expected, he took the end of her shawl in both hands. "The Pattern," he said. "Caemlyn," one finger on his left hand tented the wool, "and Cairhien." A finger on the other hand made a tent, and he brought the two tents together. "I bend the Pattern and bore a hole from one to the other. I don't know what I bore through, but there's no space between one end of the hole and the other."
That method won’t work for Women, as Moghedien explained in LoC Chapter 37 – When Battle Begins: "That is how men Travel." The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the lost Talents. "If you try, you will be sucked into.... I don't know what it is. The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don't think you would live very long. I know you would never come back."
Women do it by taking two parts of the Pattern and creating a similarity between them, making them identical to the point that you can step across them through a Gateway.
LoC Chapter 37 – When Battle Begins "You make the two places in the Pattern identical. I can show you how.
That method won’t work for Men, as Rand explains in LoC Chapter 27 – Gifts: "That sounds like changing the weave of the Pattern. I think it would tear me apart if I so much as tried. I bore a hole." He poked a finger at her to demonstrate.
Despite the inherent differences between the two methods, both involve the same basic task: take two different parts of the Pattern and manipulate them. This explains why you need to have a firm grasp of your location and your destination to Travel. If you don’t know which part of the Pattern to grab, a Gateway will never open, as Renaile discovered in PoD Chapter 5.
But….why do both points in the Pattern have to be at the same time?
If all you are doing is boring a hole between two points in the Pattern, or making two points identical, why couldn’t you reach further back on the Pattern and step to a time that has already been woven?
Ignore what the Dark One said for a moment and think on it. If reality is truly a woven Pattern of threads, then why can’t you grab a part of the Pattern that’s already been woven? Balefire affects parts of the Pattern that are already woven, so there is precedence. Is it just fear of the unknown that keeps channelers from broadening their horizons and attempting something that, theoretically, should work?
Now, if you must cling to the Dark One’s admission that “EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME†(LoC Prologue), remember that the Dark One is not omniscient, else he wouldn’t need eyes and ears. Also, remember that many things that were a given as impossible have been shown to work. Something is impossible until the first person does it. Healing stilling, unraveling weaves, Warder bonding, etc. Even the Aes Sedai are starting to realize this.
Now, even if you could step back in time, I don’t think you could return back to the future. The future Pattern hasn’t been woven yet, so you would have nothing to grab onto to make a Gateway. Time travel would be a one-way proposition. (And since nobody’s come back, that may be why everyone thinks it’s impossible)
Another potential drawback is the stress moving your thread backwards in the Pattern would put on you, and the Pattern itself. You could change the future, but nobody would know about it since the Future hasn’t been woven yet. Also, you could disrupt things that are fated to happen via prophecy, and that disruption could greatly upset the Wheel. (Either that or the Wheel compensates by creating new predestined events to replace the ones you disrupt.) But the biggest problem would be the stress on your own thread. Assuming you survived walking through the Gateway, there’s no telling what would happen to you. Could your thread tolerate that much disruption? And if so, for how long? What good is time travel if it kills you, after all.
In conclusion: if the metaphor of reality being a woven Pattern is literal, then theoretically it is possible to Travel backwards in time to a point on the Pattern already woven.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2006-01-11
But why couldn't you return to the future, Frenzy? Take your example. If you are touching the present Pattern, as a male, with the Past Pattern, at a specific point along the Pattern, why would the Present Pattern disappear for you? The soul's location along the Pattern has nothing to do with the existence of the Pattern. Balefire is a good example. The Past Pattern exists, continues to exist, or the Pattern could not shift as a result of Balefire. So, how could one thread moving along the Pattern, somehow delete the Pattern. Somewhere, the Present Pattern would continue to exist, which thinking hurts my head...
jason wolfbrother: 2006-01-11
Theoretically possible. Not sure how or why it would be applicable though. Nynaeve Healed Stilling because she didn't believe that it was impossible. Aviendha unraveled the weaves because she knew it was possible. Who would even think to attempt to go to a previous place in the Pattern?
Second question. Would the Pattern have room to add a previously existing , and woven, thread back into an already woven pattern? The Pattern has already been set in the past. The threads are woven together. So where would this new old thread go?
Ozymandias: 2006-01-11
This has no factual foundation, but the reason may be something to do with the direction of the weave. Traveling across the Pattern horizontally may have a much different effect than Traveling vertically, so to speak, and straight back across the Pattern. I'll give it more thought since I'm busy right now, but that could have philosophical implications for why one works and the other doesn't.
Hank McCoy: 2006-01-11
Tamylrin Wrote--
"But why couldn't you return to the future, Frenzy? Take your example. If you are touching the present Pattern, as a male, with the Past Pattern, at a specific point along the Pattern, why would the Present Pattern disappear for you?"
It is very simple. If the Pattern existed in the future than free will can not exist. Everything we know of the Pattern indicates it is woven at the present by the Wheel. The Wheel is the mechanism that organizes the threads and pushes threads in the direction needed to form the Pattern. The Wheel has a design for the Pattern but the threads are not set.
For a human to travel into the future the Pattern would already have to be woven. If it is already woven than the entire notion of free will is lost because changes can not be made to a pattern that is already created (you can not pull a thread out of a shirt and reweave it somewhere else. Try it if you doubt me.) . So, the idea that the Pattern is finished, as it would have to be to Travel into the future, is null and void because of the nature of the Wheel.
The theory is great because Frenzy picked up on this. Now, to discuss the points of the theory. Personally, I do not think a thread could survive a great leap back in time. For example, Rand could not Travel back to LTT’s time. A thread is only so long. It would break before it reached the destination. I think this should be added to Frenzy’s theory. Traveling back in time, if possible, would shorten the thread and therefore the life of the time Traveler. This would be a huge drawback to time Traveling, among other things.
Now for a counter point. The movie The Butterfly Effect fits very well with this theory. In the movie, the main character discovers in adulthood that he can momentarily travel back in time to specific points. He can then change his actions and in return the future. However, the main character discovers that small changes can have huge unforeseen effects. Because of these effects the character continues to travel back in time to make other changes. In one of his trips he meets his father who was in a mental institution. His father had the same ability to traverse time. His father tried to kill him and said that he should never have been born. The character also finds out that his mother and father had four other children. All of the children died in child birth. The character continues to slip through time and each trip worsens his situation. Eventually he ends up in the womb and strangles himself with his umbilical cord just before he is born.
So how does this tie into the WOT. Simply put the character had side stepped fate by being born. Very similar to what Mat would have done had he not gone to the Waste with Rand. Every change the character made were corrections to the “pattern†that eventually fixed the side stepping of fate. I think the Wheel would find a way to counteract any changes made by a time Traveler. So, if Rand is fated to die and someone (Avi for instance) Travels back in time to save him the Wheel would still weave Rand’s death. Just like Final Destination. However, if the Wheel planned on someone Traveling back in time to prevent Rand’s death then he would live. Or if the Wheel knew . . .
Now my head hurts. It is a bad idea to mess with time. You never know what can happen.
Traveller: 2006-01-11
Wow. That is an idea. I see exactly where you are coming from- it should be possible. Also, I agree that it might not be possible to go forward in time, coz it isn't woven yet, but it depends how you see the Pattern, pre-woven or constantly weaving, because the two places have to exist for either men to bring them together, or for women to make them similar.
This has interesting indications for the last battle and how Jordan will twist it from what people expect.
I have to say that at this moment, there is no evidence of time travel's possibility, but it should be possible, and I think that you are right in your deductions, even if Jordan doesn't choose to use them in his books (if you see what I mean.)
Trahelion: 2006-01-11
Well, we already know that Rand, Egwene, Moiraine, Mat, and the Aiel have already time traveled. Remember when they first went to the waste Rand used the One power to bring everyone to the waste, but it ended up being at a later time that they got there. Maybe the Old Aes Sedai thought the same way and created ter'angreal that could focus on threads of the Pattern in different time periods, that can end up bringing you backwards in time or forwards in time to get to another area.
Sharom: 2006-01-11
Hmmm... This makes sense. I agree with Frenzy, this should be possible.
The reason time travel in the forward direction would not be possible is that even though the part of the pattern you came from must still exist somewhere, it does not exist to YOU. Since you are now in the past, that past is your present...there is nothing ahead of it yet because you haven't gotten there. There wouldn't be anything to grab onto.
At least for a male. Males have to take two definite places in the pattern and move them together, while females just make them very similar. What would keep a female from making some undetermined point in the future just like one in the present? Whereas a male has to have a place to grab, a female doesn't so their way should work.
An interesting parallel to this is that Einstein predicted that time travel was possible, but only in the backwards direction. Yet scientists have proven that as you travel faster and faster, you leap forward in time. (Such as, a clock that made a trans-atlantic flight on the Concorde would afterwards be several millionths of a second behind one that stayed on the ground.)
Bring Eben Back: 2006-01-11
What about tying off the weave to Travel? You would then have an open gateway for however long, that would enable you to go back..
KINGofWOLVES: 2006-01-11
i suppose in a way that it does make sense, though i am still sceptical. The question i have is this - if you could travel back in time, any interaction or change made on your behalf would still be woven into the pattern of that time. So if you have any effect on the other threads of that time that causes anything that will affect the future, then wouldnt that thread kinda.... unravel and be forced into a new weave bsed on your influence... If none of what i am saying is making sense to you, dont worry, i can barely understand it myself - think of the time paradox.
Picture this - someone goes back in time and stops their parents from meeting, therefore they never exist. However, if they never existed, then they couldnt go back in time to interfere. And so the cycle continues.
I am inclined to believe that even IF you could go back in time, anything you did could have a more destructive influence on the pattern than balefire. Picture it, you are not just removing someone from the pattern, you are changing it.
But hey, i am no philosopher, and i dont want to think over this too much or my brain will rupture. Maybee Ishmael could give us an answer, wasnt he the leading philosopher of the Age of Legends?
Callandor: 2006-01-11
**If all you are doing is boring a hole between two points in the Pattern, or making two points identical, why couldn’t you reach further back on the Pattern and step to a time that has already been woven?**
Because time moves forward :P
**If reality is truly a woven Pattern of threads, then why can’t you grab a part of the Pattern that’s already been woven?**
I'd say because time is the Wheel itself, and that's not what you're manipulating. Just the place.
**Balefire affects parts of the Pattern that are already woven, so there is precedence.**
It effects the threads of the balefired people and their actions, only.
**Is it just fear of the unknown that keeps channelers from broadening their horizons and attempting something that, theoretically, should work?**
Probably -- or that they just don't care enough to ;)
**Also, remember that many things that were a given as impossible have been shown to work.**
Yet, some things are clearly set as impossible, like Healing death, a person Healing themself, and a person picking themself up with the Power. There are clear impossibilities in the world -- not everything is possible and people just haven't tried it.
**Even the Aes Sedai are starting to realize this.**
Yet they still know certain things are impossible.
**The future Pattern hasn’t been woven yet, so you would have nothing to grab onto to make a Gateway.**
How do you know it hasn't? ;) I myself entertain the idea that the Wheel is always weaving a bit ahead of present events -- hence how certain things must occur and will occur (granted, I don't think that during the Breaking the Wheel was weaving the events of today -- don't think it goes that far ahead of the present, but it could be).
**Also, you could disrupt things that are fated to happen via prophecy, and that disruption could greatly upset the Wheel. (Either that or the Wheel compensates by creating new predestined events to replace the ones you disrupt.)**
Or you simply cannot interrupt those events -- like if you went back in time to kill Hitler, but you were shot before you could. Time keeps on going anyway.
**But the biggest problem would be the stress on your own thread. Assuming you survived walking through the Gateway, there’s no telling what would happen to you. Could your thread tolerate that much disruption? And if so, for how long? What good is time travel if it kills you, after all.**
Also, what would that look like if you could see the Pattern? Probably like if you had a flat piece of fabric, and ther was a single loop of thread from one place to another.
**In conclusion: if the metaphor of reality being a woven Pattern is literal, then theoretically it is possible to Travel backwards in time to a point on the Pattern already woven.**
It's interesting, but I don't think it's viable.
Anubis: 2006-01-12
**In conclusion: if the metaphor of reality being a woven Pattern is literal, then theoretically it is possible to Travel backwards in time to a point on the Pattern already woven.**
Well thats the catch... now isnt it? I highly doubt that the metaphor is literal.
a dragonburned fool: 2006-01-12
My nitpicking here: I see a difference between conditions of spatial-only folding of Pattern, and the conditions of temporal folding: The temporal differences in the Pattern must take the Wheel's turning into account, while the pure spatial differences have not the moment of Wheel's turning in them. So if you have to fold the Pattern only spatially, you don't need to affect the Wheel specifically, but if you have to fold the Pattern temporaly, you have to manipulate also the Wheel. When it comes to the manipulating the Wheel IMnsHO we have reasons to have doubts about the theoretical possibility of such actions.
Balefire can erase the past, but not future, and it does it only using OP. But balefire does it in a way significantly different from that of Traveling - balefire doesn't make any jumps in the timing, it is contiguous in it's action. While the very essence of Traveling is a jump through the Pattern.
Actually traveling in the future is in a way not impossible and we have even seen it in the cases when Portal Stones were used. Maybe it could be possible for a Traveling form to be utilized so to surpass the visiting of any Mirror Worlds, and only using the universal law that allows the MWs have different speed of time. But it would give Taraveling only into the future, but not back into the past.
Against your suggestion, Frenzy, I would say that it could be theoretically possible to Travel into the future, but not into the past. Traveling in the future could be tricky utilizing of unequal timing of the multi-universe, and thus wouldn't violate the Wheel's turning, but Traveling in the past would mean violation of the Wheel's turning.
Khazhul: 2006-01-12
I think time travel is not possible. I agree with the others on why it's not possible to go into the future. As for the past I can only say that there is no room for change in the pattern. It would be like trying to go back and adding a thread into a shirt that is already made, you can't do it. It is possible to view the past though as we have seen Rand do when he was in Ruidean. So my response in short is that you can view anything in the past which could be very useful but you can't change it. I think you would have to unravel the threads to that point to change it and does that brings in some possibliites with balefire? I don't know, I hate thinking about time travel.
Flinnd: 2006-01-12
Something interesting came to mind. Say it is possible to travel to past portions of the pattern. Since the future portion already exists, my thought is unless your thread follows the same course it took previously, you would end up in one of the mirror worlds. Remember, the mirror worlds are "realities" that exist based on decisions that were made different than those made in the primary pattern. So, a thread moving back in time and making a different choice would in fact be following the path of one of the mirror worlds. Perhaps they would then live ou the remainder of their existence in the mirror world. Could those folks who were never heard from again after trying to weave the wrong kind of gateway have ended up in a mirror world? Could they then be brought back via a portal stone?
Another crazy thought to add to this... could the walking dead be an example of the past portion of the pattern touching and mixing with the present portion of the pattern? If that were the case, those "walking dead" could be victims of a momentary and involuntary shift into their future.
haertchen: 2006-01-12
"An interesting parallel to this is that Einstein predicted that time travel was possible, but only in the backwards direction. Yet scientists have proven that as you travel faster and faster, you leap forward in time. (Such as, a clock that made a trans-atlantic flight on the Concorde would afterwards be several millionths of a second behind one that stayed on the ground.)"
Actually, Einstein only proved that you could change your relative "speed" in time (that's a very bad word in this context, but it will have to do)`and travel forward in time "faster than" something else. That's essentially what you're referring to in your example.
Also, from what I can figure, Einstein's theory is incompatible with the idea of travelling, at least as it's presented in the books, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
haertchen: 2006-01-12
Clarification: I believe in Einstein's special theory of relativity in the real world. I have difficulty reconciling it with traveling as described in WoT, and so don't think it will help us much.
Callandor: 2006-01-12
**It is very simple. If the Pattern existed in the future than free will can not exist. Everything we know of the Pattern indicates it is woven at the present by the Wheel. The Wheel is the mechanism that organizes the threads and pushes threads in the direction needed to form the Pattern. The Wheel has a design for the Pattern but the threads are not set.**
You don't have any basis for that though, beyond your opinion. The Wheel could very well have already woven certain events that for sure will happen a certain way, like the main lines in any fabric, and those would be the prophized events.
And, you'd have to explain what Hawkwing means when he says "The weave of this moment is set" at Falme.
**If it is already woven than the entire notion of free will is lost because changes can not be made to a pattern that is already created (you can not pull a thread out of a shirt and reweave it somewhere else. Try it if you doubt me.) . So, the idea that the Pattern is finished, as it would have to be to Travel into the future, is null and void because of the nature of the Wheel.**
Only if you think the entire Pattern is woven ahead of time.
And we are given examples of re-workings, with the use of balefire -- though that's hardly advised.
**A thread is only so long. It would break before it reached the destination. I think this should be added to Frenzy’s theory. Traveling back in time, if possible, would shorten the thread and therefore the life of the time Traveler. This would be a huge drawback to time Traveling, among other things.**
Again, what basis? I'm not aware of any set length of any threads being shown.
**Eventually he ends up in the womb and strangles himself with his umbilical cord just before he is born.**
That's the director's cut, btw.
**Very similar to what Mat would have done had he not gone to the Waste with Rand.**
That was more than likely the imputus for Mat to go to the Waste, nothing more. Events can happen different ways and the Pattern will accept some of them, but for certain events it simply will not accept anything but one way.
**Well, we already know that Rand, Egwene, Moiraine, Mat, and the Aiel have already time traveled. Remember when they first went to the waste Rand used the One power to bring everyone to the waste, but it ended up being at a later time that they got there.**
That was Rand and co. traveling to Toman Head, not the Waste. And it wasn't really time travel per se, more like they lost time -- they didn't go back in time, they were basically in a limbo that was instantaneous for them but months when by for others.
If you believe that, then you would also say the Forsaken have time traveled, when it's far more like they were cryogenically frozen and lost time.
**The reason time travel in the forward direction would not be possible is that even though the part of the pattern you came from must still exist somewhere, it does not exist to YOU. Since you are now in the past, that past is your present...there is nothing ahead of it yet because you haven't gotten there. There wouldn't be anything to grab onto.**
Again, it's subjective to whether or not certain events are already woven.
Frenzy: 2006-01-13
Sharom: “What would keep a female from making some undetermined point in the future just like one in the present?â€
It would be a blind leap. You’re be trying to Travel to a place and time you think exists. But what if it doesn’t? What if your vision, for lack of a better term, of what the future is isn’t 100% accurate? What’s to keep you from stepping into a Mirror World, since by taking an inferred blind leap you’re traveling along a line of if, to use Verin’s phrase.
I thought that perhaps, given the correct knowledge, a channeler could use the method that’s used in the Pern series to time travel: using predictable astronomical mileposts to mark time. But that wouldn’t work in WoT for two reasons. 1) The Dark One has screwed with the regular movements of the planet, so that makes predictions completely unreliable, and 2) in theory the placement of the stars and such would be the same in multiple mirror worlds, so again what’s to keep you from stepping into a mirror?
Bring Eben Back: “What about tying off the weave to Travel? You would then have an open gateway for however long, that would enable you to go back..â€
The problem i see with this is that when you’re Time Traveling, you’re moving to a specific point in time. That point is instantaneous, so you can’t tie off a weave to something that’s already happened. Hmmm, that may be why you can’t Time Travel at all, since time is always moving. You can’t move fast enough to get to one specific moment in time and open a Gateway to it, since once your weave attaches itself to it, it’s gone. I’m sure there’s some calculus in there, with instantaneous derivatives. Maybe you need a Heisenberg compensator on your weave, too. ~grins~
Callandor says: **Balefire affects parts of the Pattern that are already woven, so there is precedence.** “It effects the threads of the balefired people and their actions, only.â€
But that’s still an effect in the past, and that’s something the past Pattern has to compensate for. Hence why the actions have been removed, but the memory of those actions hasn’t. At least no fully.
Callandor says: “And, you'd have to explain what Hawkwing means when he says "The weave of this moment is set" at Falme.â€
It’s the same thing as that discussion Rand and Thom had about the Pattern waaay back in EotW. The Pattern only has so much room for a thread to move about in. Rand’s example is saying if he wanted to be a King, and how unlikely THAT was to happen. Well, Rand being ta’veren made that huge leap possible. Remember how Tuon translated ta’veren from the Old Tongue? “Tied to the Pattern.†Ta’veren cause larger permutations in the Pattern to occur because it forces the Pattern to weave itself around their threads. Their threads become the focus of the weaving, meaning that the weaving can only deviate so far from that focal point. THAT’s what Hawkwing meant with his comment in Falme. Certain events had been woven into the Pattern at that point, bringing about a situation where there was only so much the players could do to effect the directions their threads would go in the Pattern.
Thanks for everyone’s thoughtful input on this. It's theoretically possible. I don’t think it’ll pan out in WoT reality, but I’m not going to rule it out entirely. What I DON’T want to see is some idiotic Superman 2 thing where Rand does something stupid out of grief and change time to save someone he loves. Theoretically it’s possible for him to do it. Elayne too. That theoretical concerns me... slightly. Anyways, now that you’ve played with my little exercise in sophistry: taking the premises of WoT physics and warping them as far as they’d go just for the sake of doing so... rate the theory. :)
Callandor: 2006-01-13
**But that’s still an effect in the past, and that’s something the past Pattern has to compensate for. Hence why the actions have been removed, but the memory of those actions hasn’t. At least no fully.**
But it's not a person going back in time and walking around.
**The Pattern only has so much room for a thread to move about in.**
Which is one of the main reasons I don't think this is possible.
**Their threads become the focus of the weaving, meaning that the weaving can only deviate so far from that focal point. THAT’s what Hawkwing meant with his comment in Falme. Certain events had been woven into the Pattern at that point, bringing about a situation where there was only so much the players could do to effect the directions their threads would go in the Pattern.**
Yes, Frenzy -- part of the moment was already set. The Wheel had woven ahead of the present. Hence, the Wheel does weave a future, for a time traveler to get back to.
Frenzy: 2006-01-13
Callandor: "But it's not a person going back in time and walking around."
So? Does that matter?
Callandor: "Yes, Frenzy -- part of the moment was already set. The Wheel had woven ahead of the present. Hence, the Wheel does weave a future, for a time traveler to get back to."
That's an overly convoluted way of looking at it, imho. And one that doesn't pan out with the current models of how the Wheel and Pattern work. Think of it as a bottleneck. The weaving has led up to a point where there is only a small gap for the threads involved to move forward into. It isn't because those threads have already been woven, it's because they only have a small amount of drift room. They're constrained by the set of what's already been woven in the Past, not by what's already been woven in the future. And what does that mean, exactly? What's already been woven in the future? That makes absolutley no sense, unless you think the Wheel has a 8-second time delay to avoid embarassing wardrobe malfunctions or something. ;)
tworiverswoman: 2006-01-13
Well, this is an interesting Theory. Complete codswallop, of course, but interesting. (Heh). Time travel is one of those things that requires more than just a lunch hour to work out the in-and-outs, unfortunately, but I want to toss out a couple of comments, anyway. The following consist of my personal opinions, only (obviously), and are not backed up by any facts that we know of.
One thing we need to know is the nature of the Pattern. I’ve seen all KINDS of assertions made as to what it is and how it works, and most of the claims sound a bit... iffy.
For one thing, I doubt very much that the Pattern consists of literal “threads†– this seems just a convenient metaphor, a clue as to how to visualize it so we can make reasonable conjectures and the channellers can “touch†it. I’ve always found RJ’s “explanation†of how the two sexes Travel to be a struggle to accept. It doesn’t make sense. Especially bringing in the idea that you need to know your starting point, but not your destination. And yet, you need to make some kind of connection between these places and then either make them identical (women), or poke a hole through (men). How do you make your landing point “identical†to your take-off point?
I have to dismiss it as a plot concept that doesn’t work in the Real World, so don’t I fret over its lack of rationality. Just apply “suspension of disbelief†and go on from there.
The ‘Finn can read the future, and make predictions based on their reading. This implies the future is already set. Even if you acknowledge that they are “outside†this universe, their Prophecies are apparently never wrong. This disturbs me.
The Rhuidean 3-ring Ter’Angreal that the Wise Ones and Moiraine go through reads all the possible futures, which is quite a trick, especially the further you get from your starting point. There was a “Commodore Grimes†book decades ago that used this idea; and what Terry Pratchett refers to as the “Trouser Legs of Timeâ€. Each choice leads to a different future. (In the Grimes book, the universe eventually imploded, as I recall.) In TWoT, if time travel was possible, every change you made to the previous Pattern would cause a “ripple-forward†effect, changing the threads “down-stream†of the change, effectively wiping out the future you came from. Or, as someone else suggested, the change would divert you to a different future, one of the “mirror worldsâ€.
Balefire does seem to have a “time traveller†effect, but it’s very localized. Every so often, someone on the forums suggests that our hero should Balefire someone back years. I seem to recollect that someone wanted one of the Forsaken balefired all the way back to the AOL. I suspect that the length of time Rand was able to back-fire Rahvin was probably about as long as you can go, without an Angreal; and adding their power, even the Chodan Kal, would only extend that time by a matter of minutes, or, at most, hours. Rand/LTT is spoken of as the stongest channeller in existance, isn’t he? And I’m pretty sure he had all the stops out when he destroyed Rahvin. This really has nothing to do with time travel, it just wandered into my thoughts. Sorry. Balefire does “re-weave†a local portion of the Pattern, but if I am correct, this is largely confined to a small radius of physical area, and seems also to be somewhat jury-rigged, as the memory corrections seem to be less than perfect. I can see where bale-firing whole cities would give the Pattern conniption fits, though.
A phrase I’m fond of when thinking about predestination vs. free will is from Shakespear’s Hamlet, and goes, “There’s a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will.†This sort of gives you the best of both worlds. I prefer to think of the Pattern as a fluid medium, not fixed. I’ve never cared for the assumption I see in a lot of posts to the boards that everything is going to circle around and repeat exactly. Even RJ has never claimed this. A real pattern, one used to make a shirt, for example, sets the shape and size (within a moderate range), but fabric, color, and accessories (buttons, embroidery, etc.) are chosen anew each time. This is more how I see the Pattern of the Ages.
RJ hasn’t told us if they have identifying characteristics that a being like the Creator (who is capable of looking at it from the outside, unlike the actors within it) might use to tell one Age from another. Does the Pattern include an Age before Man? Before speech? Before cities? Or did he create a world already set up for the 1st Agers, with language, civilization, etc. Does the use of the One Power count as an “Age indicator?†How many of the seven Ages will have it? Only two? Four? Six? If we are now living in an Age called “The First Ageâ€, at least one Age does NOT have access to The One Power.
The guy who writes the Dilbert cartoons postulated a different theory of the nature of time. In his concept, there is no such thing, just a moving viewpoint traveling along a set of points on a chain of moments. Each moment is fixed and immutable once passed, but the “future†is based on the “nodes†you select for your viewpoint. Your choices, in other words. This even works reasonably well with the concept of Pattern threads.
So, anyway. I want to go on record as rejecting this theory. Sorry.
Callandor: 2006-01-14
**So? Does that matter?**
I would say it matters a great deal.
**That's an overly convoluted way of looking at it, imho. And one that doesn't pan out with the current models of how the Wheel and Pattern work. Think of it as a bottleneck. The weaving has led up to a point where there is only a small gap for the threads involved to move forward into. It isn't because those threads have already been woven, it's because they only have a small amount of drift room.**
First off, that's not how I interpret what Hawkwings says anyway. Hawkwing's saying the weave of the moment is set -- hence they have nothing to do but what they are fated to do.
Secondly, given your example, yes, it's a bottle neck of fewer choices -- because it's already pre-destined. It's already woven so the Pattern would not accept anything other than what will occur.
**And what does that mean, exactly? What's already been woven in the future? That makes absolutley no sense, unless you think the Wheel has a 8-second time delay to avoid embarassing wardrobe malfunctions or something.**
What I mean is that the Wheel pre-planned certain events to only happen a certain way. Rand taking the Stone was pre-planned to happen just the way it did; the Wheel wouldn't accept him going in the front door. Using this as an example, not saying that it's that way.
All I'm saying is that we know there is pre-destination in the world. We know there's a general plan of the Age. What's to stop the idea that the Wheel weaves certain events (and only certain events) ahead of time? Like I said, it's like guide strands in a weave.
Then, there's also situations like at Falme, which could be viewed as these certain events getting closer to present. The weave of those moments is set, because it's already been woven; the outcome is known; the game is rigged!
Korell: 2006-01-14
i first want to appologize for not reading the entire thread.
Ok i do not have an opinion on weather this is possible or not. Though i find the concept very interesting. Also i agree with Callondor in that part of the pattern is being woven ahead of the current events. However i belive there are certain things that are set in stone that WILL happen (here to for Min's viewings) Now that being said those events WILL happen however we do not know the path it will take to get there just that they WILL happen. As for traveling back in time. The universal theory is that if you can travle to the past you can view it but you cant change it. the problem is if you do then you create a time paradox that could unravel time itself. or in this case the age lace think of it like a rope made of twine if you cut the rope in the middle it is the connection of the 2 ends is lost. in this case there is no longer a connection between the past and the future so to speak. How could this happen? Rand goes back in time and BF's all the forsaken. can you say Paradox? ouch goodbye world hello Darkone. anyway just my thoughts
Callandor: 2006-01-15
**Now that being said those events WILL happen however we do not know the path it will take to get there just that they WILL happen.**
Indeed, the Pattern has lots of room for movement. But there could be, and we have references, for events that have to happen certain ways. One possible reason, is because they are already woven.
a dragonburned fool: 2006-01-16
I thought that perhaps, given the correct knowledge, a channeler could use the method that’s used in the Pern series to time travel: using predictable astronomical mileposts to mark time. But that wouldn’t work in WoT for two reasons.
a dragonburned fool: 2006-01-16
I'm sorry for my previous post - it was a silly cut-and-paste error. What I wanted to post was the following:
Frenzy:"It would be a blind leap. You’re be trying to Travel to a place and time you think exists. But what if it doesn’t? What if your vision, for lack of a better term, of what the future is isn’t 100% accurate? What’s to keep you from stepping into a Mirror World, since by taking an inferred blind leap you’re traveling along a line of if, to use Verin’s phrase. "
I see, I missunderstood this aspect of your theory the first time I have seen it. I thought about the very possibility to travel in time independently of how well it is controlled. In cases when precision of the destination doesn't matter, WoT universe will allow Travel in future much easier than Travel in the past of course, but in the case with Travelling to a precise destination .... Actually I don't think that in the last case it would be some difference there, if we mind what the books could say us about the matter. First I mean that the direction to the future and the direction to tha past are not equally ranked in the WoT-nature, because one of the directions is according to the Wheel's turning, and the other is against the Wheel, and it is too important a factor to ignore it. I mean that it is to much possible that while there are arguably possible at least blind leaps in the future, it's debatable whether ANY leaps in the past (blind or not) could be even theoretically possible. The only phaenomenon having to do with change in the future is balefire and it is definitely not a leap, while Travelling in it's very definition is allways a leap. Second, I mean that I strongly doubt that Travel in the past would be less blind than Travel in the future. Of course one knows the past well unlike the future, in the past there are lot of reliable points of orientation. But when it's about controllable movement into the past, this knowledge is not guaranteed to be of any use. Because leaping back in the past you actually ignore lot of other known events that depend of the events in the moment of the destination, and this ignoring of known events, if possible, would lead to major unpredictable consequences. Unpredictable consequences that will make this trip to the past essentially hazardous. As hazardous as balefire or even more hazardous (because balefire at least doesn't jump in the past but moves in absolutely continuous manner). The only known manner to affect the past - balefire - is essentially blind and unpredictable means. If the only known means to affect the past is so uncontrollable, then we have no backing for the statement that jumping in the past would be more controllable.
"I thought that perhaps, given the correct knowledge, a channeler could use the method that’s used in the Pern series to time travel: using predictable astronomical mileposts to mark time. But that wouldn’t work in WoT for two reasons..."
You have much better mileposts in the future of WoT universe than astronomical events. You have Foretellings, Min's viewings, Aelfinn answers, all of them absolutely 100% true. Also knowing the different in timeflow between Randland and a Mirror World, one could eventually calculate the time needed to stay in a particular MW so that he could return in Randland in exactly the time and place he wants. If it could be done with MWs then it maybe could be calculated also without the mediation of MWs, if you know the general laws of how any MW would deflect, a knowledge that could be included in the infamous science about the "numbers of chaos" of AoL. So there are possible ways to add precision into Traveling into the future.
Nazbaque: 2006-01-17
It would be easier to explain this with a blackboard or better yet a peace of fabric, but let's try.
There is only one place in the Wheel where the Pattern is being weaved and just behind that place is the present. You can change some small things like throwing that rock here instead of there but somethings are going to happen no matter what you do.
The past has already been woven. You can't change even the small things there.
If Travelling back in time were possible, it would be something like what Rand did in Rhuidean: seeing things but not being able to affect them.
The Librarian: 2006-01-17
Very interesting. Unlikely to be possible, but interesting. I have always loved the way time travel forces you to mix physics and philosophy. I have a few things to say:
If the waving is ahead of time, what determines what is the present? I have always thought the present is the point in the wave we are in.
Humans need time to do anything, so how can humans work through time? Hmm.. This reminds me of the DO's "EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME" But isn't he ouside of the pattern? Hmm... doesnt a wheel need time to roll, so how can the rolling be the time? Is there an other time, independent of randland, in which the Do and the wheel exist so balefired threads goes even out of that?
I would also like to remind you that due the circularity of time in WoT if you travel far enough in time you will be in the past, kind of, and vice versa.
Travelling to the future can be done by not existing completely for a while. In a world of portal stones and so on that is rather easy.
Finally questions: Where does the pattern go once it has been woven?
Where is the past?
Can it be accessed there?
Ahh Time Travel!
The more you think about it, the more questions you get.
AnotherForsaken: 2006-01-17
**Hmmm, that may be why you can’t Time Travel at all, since time is always moving. You can’t move fast enough to get to one specific moment in time and open a Gateway to it, since once your weave attaches itself to it, it’s gone.
as to that when u make a gateway in the present, it stays open though time progresses. so gateways, just like everything else would move with time in the past and u would have something to tie to. as long as there was room for that first instant the gateway was made, the pattern has already shifted, so there should be room for the gateway to continue to exist.
**Now, even if you could step back in time, I don’t think you could return back to the future. The future Pattern hasn’t been woven yet, so you would have nothing to grab onto to make a Gateway. Time travel would be a one-way proposition. (And since nobody’s come back, that may be why everyone thinks it’s impossible)
as to that. the pattern would keep on moving whether or not u went back in time. If a person time B time traveled back to time A, the pattern must still exist all the way to point B. if it didnt, you wouldnt have been born, and so u could never exist to time travel anyway. Time would continue to move forward, why would it stop just because u went back in time. so if u went from point B to point A and waited 5 years, theoretically u should be able to travel back to the future up to anytime until 5 years after point B.
the only problem with traveling back to the future, is that now that you're in time A, your changing the pattern, so now point B is slightly different than when u left it. Of course if your able to somehow figure out a way to determine what a point in the past would be like (i.e. to mirror somewhere in the past) you can probably find out a way to determine what the future would become (in order to mirror back) probably the easiest (maybe only) way would be to use a type of marker. something that could not change over time (say some sort of cuendillar "landing pad") then you could use it a reference point if you had a floor of cuendillar it probably doesnt change very much seing has how no matter what people do, the floor would stay the same
New Forsaken: 2006-01-17
I have a question about the Pattern. If the Pattern is made up of human lives why do channelers speak of places when they travel. This seems to refer to fixed places when the pattern is made up of ever changing lives.
Nazbaque: 2006-01-21
New Forsaken, I have always thought that the Pattern has more to it than just human lives. Animals and plants have their place in the Pattern as well as people.
"We are just threads in the Pattern"
This saying doesn't mean that only human lives have threads.
I believe that at least places like the Stone have their threads as well.
Lord of the Dawn: 2006-01-22
***I have a question about the Pattern. If the Pattern is made up of human lives why do channelers speak of places when they travel. This seems to refer to fixed places when the pattern is made up of ever changing lives. ***
Because it's not just made up of human lives, it is made up of everything. Every object and person has a thread in the Pattern.
Take balefire for example - balefire only burns threads out of the Pattern. If an object didn't have a thread, then balefire would not affect any object. But we have seen balefire affect objects so we know they must have threads.
Matjess: 2006-01-27
I'm new here, not particularly academic, retentive or intelligent, but I can see merit in this theory, so I'll make a few points. 1.Mat died and lived again twice (in my view), once when he was hanged, and then when Rand Balefired Rahvin at Caemlyn.
2.Egwene steps bodily into Tel'aranrhiod to get to Salidar quickly.
3.Rand channels into those posts with the symbols to travel quickly via other possible realities.
4.Waygates (just on the Waygate matter, one travels, say, two weeks into the future in two days, or does one? I've tried to analyse this 'til my head hurts).
5.What Rand does in the Waste.
6.The "immortality" of the Forsaken, and the time they spend sealed on the other side of the pattern.
7.Ter'angreals in general... There are other notable anomalies which I can't recall, since I (and you) have been in a time warp for around fifteen years (damn you Robert Jordan), but the things I've mentioned all seem to involve the manipulation of time, well maybe not the hanging, and I'd like to ask you all a question... Is that Aiel still falling? If so, will he starve to death, or is his horror infinite? Apparently there's oxygen in there, or Skimming would be impossible. From whence is the gravity? To where does "up" lead? Perhaps he's "falling" in circles 'round the back side of the Wheel, and if so, is he falling backwards or forwards? Perhaps he'll eventually spiral into the Dark One's lap. Ouch. I found this site on Gooogle, I can see I'm going to love it. Regards, Jess. Matjess. Matches. The Prince of Raven idiots.
Leafburner: 2006-01-29
I haven't had an opportunity to read every post - so apologies first up. think this is an exceptional theory. Really got my mind going. I think it could be absolutely possible to travel back in time. New threads in the pattern aren't a problem. How many people are born and die? Threads move in and out of the pattern all the time, so the idea of the already woven pattern not being able to incorporate a new thread hasn't convinced me.
One thing that could be an issue is who travels back in time. What if the time traveler is Ta'veren? They could seriously manipulate the pattern simply by existing in a certain place at a certain time because of the effect they would have on the threads around them.
But all this conjecture is kind of moot, since there is a fundamental flaw in our understanding of time travel. If it is possible to travel through time, then it is also impossible for you to change the course of history by traveling back in time. For if you travel back in time, you are traveling from a present that is the product of your trip back in time. Therefore anything you experience or encounter during your trip has already occurred to make the present what it is.
Let me explain, if you traveled back in time to save Abraham Lincoln from getting shot, and succeeded, then you would never have known about Honest Abe getting shot in your present, so you would never have traveled back in time to save his life, therefore he would have been shot. It's a classic Paradox scenario. The point I'm making is that since we are all here and the universe is intact, then a time paradox has never occurred. You may try to change things, but in doing so, you would simply cause the already documented history to occur. If you didn't, then... I think Doc Brown said it best... "The encounter could create a time paradox, the results of which could cause a chain reaction, that would unravel the very fabric of the space-time continuum and destroy the entire universe!"
Callandor: 2006-01-29
**1.Mat died and lived again twice (in my view), once when he was hanged, and then when Rand Balefired Rahvin at Caemlyn.**
Jordan has explicitly said that Mat did not die in Rhuidean. He was hung long enough to be almost dead -- he died and lived again in Caemlyn.
**4.Waygates (just on the Waygate matter, one travels, say, two weeks into the future in two days, or does one? I've tried to analyse this 'til my head hurts).**
You don't travel into the future, you simply cover a greater distance in the same amount of time. Think of it like a wormhole: it's a shortcut to a different location.
**5.What Rand does in the Waste.**
He did a lot in the Waste, can you be more specific?
**6.The "immortality" of the Forsaken, and the time they spend sealed on the other side of the pattern.**
The Forsaken are not immortal in any way, shape, or form, except that the Dark One can transmigrate them. He will grant them immortality once he is broken free.
The Forsaken lived only because they were sealed in their own prisons. Those places are not effected by the Wheel, so they did not suffer the effects of time (except Aginor and Bathamel who were sealed too closely to the surface and did suffer from the effects of time).
** Is that Aiel still falling? If so, will he starve to death, or is his horror infinite?**
He fell with his spears so he can always kill himself. But he more than likely died of dehydration by now.
Lord of the Dawn: 2006-01-30
***Is that Aiel still falling? If so, will he starve to death, or is his horror infinite? Apparently there's oxygen in there, or Skimming would be impossible. From whence is the gravity? To where does "up" lead? Perhaps he's "falling" in circles 'round the back side of the Wheel, and if so, is he falling backwards or forwards? ***
Yes I believe that poor Aiel is still falling, as a corpse. He would have starved or thirsted to death by now, if not gone insane or died of boredom.
I would also like to see someone's reasoning about Mat dying when he was hung at Rhuidean. IMO he didn't die because Rand was able to revive him with something like CPR. It seemed like Rand saved him just in time, so how could Rand have saved him if he was dead?
Saidar Haran: 2006-01-30
This thread makes my head hurt, so I'm going to say that I hate time travel (so many paradoxes) and move on, though I do see how it could work.
terez: 2006-02-01
*"Since the future portion already exists, my thought is unless your thread follows the same course it took previously, you would end up in one of the mirror worlds. Remember, the mirror worlds are "realities" that exist based on decisions that were made different than those made in the primary pattern. So, a thread moving back in time and making a different choice would in fact be following the path of one of the mirror worlds."*
That was what I had in mind. I was thinking of DBZ, when Future Trunks shows up to try to save the world from annhialation, but all he manages to do is create a parallel universe where the world is saved. He can still go back to his world, or time, where everything is the same, and he can use what he learned in the new "Mirror World," if you will, to affect the future of his own world or time, but he wasn't really able to change the past. The nihongi usually have pretty good ideas on sci-fi kind of stuff. :)
Caracarn: 2006-02-08
One take on the ability to travel forward back to the present from the past. We know that in the WoT universe Time is cyclical, the Wheel turns and turns and eventually comes back to the same point. So using this principle even if you couldn't move forward through time, couldn't you just keep moving back till you got to the present. Just a thought
JakOShadows: 2006-02-09
Caracarn:
I agree that time is cyclical, but the ages are different in there own way. The are the same broad concepts of what happens, but the closer you look the more different they are.
tworiverswoman: 2006-02-09
Caracarn -- it's cyclical in the larger sense -- but not in detail. The present will not come 'round again in quite the same way. RJ has said that the "tapestry" of an Age might look the same at a distance, but not up close. So, no, you can't simply "back-up" the circle. It's more like a really tight spiral. Each Age is just a bit offset from it's prior incarnation.
At least, that's the way I've interpreted RJ's remarks on the subject.
SDog: 2006-02-09
I'll make this brief.
1. You could travel back to the future you left, because that weave has already been set (though I like the Mirror World idea a lot). Whether you could go beyond that is the question. I think Callandor is right that some of the Pattern is woven before "current" time encounters it.
Think about it--how would prophecy and Dreaming and Min's visions work, if there was nothing in the future? There is some framework there, else no prescience would be possible.
2. The general idea sort of makes sense, but it relies on a few major assumptions.
a) That the Pattern has a time dimension that is accessible.
This is a big one. Do we have evidence that the Pattern exists, as such, in the past? Is there anyting to go back to visit? Even if there is, why assume that Traveling would allow humans to access it?
b) That, if we could open a hole to the past, we would be able to do anything with it.
Could we do any more than view the past? After all, we are a thread. The Wheel does the weaving, and the past is already woven. If the Wheel hits reality at present (picture a loom and the quilt tailing off the end), why assume it would (or could) weave us into the past? This is sort of a variation on (a).
Finally, I'd argue that dismissing the DO's assertion is premature. Yes, many "impossible" things turned out to be possible. But the DO isn't a human working within the confines of the Pattern. He's a god, of sorts, and if anyone knows about what's possible with regard to time, it should be him. I suppose we could guess that the Creator made it so he couldn't step outside, but that humans could. Seems like a bit of a leap. (A "Quantum Leap"? Hehe)
Finally, I'll add my pitch about the Pattern versus the Weave. Are we sure that the Pattern is really where threads are woven? Taken more literally, the Pattern is, well, a pattern. When you sew a shirt, you don't sew into the brown paper pattern you bought a Fabricmart, you sew the shirt using the Pattern as a guide.
The Pattern may well be what the Wheel uses to design the weave (the Age Lace). The Pattern determines what will happen, and human activity determines how far away from that Pattern the Wheel weaves.
I know, I know...schemantics.
AnotherForsaken: 2006-02-26
I posted above but ive changed my mind.
There is a big problem thats hasnt been addressed with this theory. The general consensus is that if u can make a gatway (throught whatever manner, ripping or makeing two places similar) to a certain point in the present, then you should be able to travel to another point in the past by visualizing it as it used to be.
But the problem is anytime u make a gateway it still makes a gateway to the present.
For instance if you are trying to travel to your house. you visualize it as it was IN THE PAST. but the gateways is still created in the PRESENT. if its too different the gateway wont form. so most of the theories above will not work without some sort of change in the way we've seen gateways created.
Yaga Shura: 2006-02-28
Lord of the Dawn:
"Take balefire for example - balefire only burns threads out of the Pattern. If an object didn't have a thread, then balefire would not affect any object. But we have seen balefire affect objects so we know they must have threads. "
Well, not exactly.
When people get hit by balefire, their threads get burned backwards in time. But when objects get hit by balefire, they don't move backwards in time. They simply cease to exist.
Yaga Shura: 2006-03-06
I've given this some more thought (specifically regarding how it would work for a woman), and I think it would be impossible to time travel using a gateway.
The process of Travelling involves taking two parts of the Pattern and making them the same. But it's only one point in space (and time, for the purposes of the theory) that is altered. Even if the gateway existed in the past, the rest of the world would be the same. Only the gateway itself would exist in the past.
matrim7744: 2006-03-09
yeah...i think that time travel wouldnt work...it wouldnt be pheasible with the normal travelling weave...however, a new weave may be possible that would allow it...
William Seeker: 2006-03-13
Time Travel? Sure it'll work. Now if you're a women it would be easy to travell back to the future, just imagine how it's going to be, and as there are athousand different variations on the Pattern you should get home or somewhere so similar you won't be able to tell the diffrence. And why do you need to step outside time- you are still in time when you travell through it. this way you just use a different means of travell.
I like it.
reTaardad: 2006-03-18
Traveling is a thing of location, not time. When Traveling, one channels to a place on the fabric of space, not time. I equate it to walking: If you take a step, you know that you'll end up exactly one pace from where you started, not suddenly stumble into next week or last year. I know that the One Power is a little more complex than walking, but I think that the Dark One was right in saying that time is an immovable beast.
thomas: 2006-08-25
In the beginning of The Lord of Chaos, The D.O. says to Demandred that even he (The D.O.) can not step outside of time. So I really don't think that it is possible.