1
Tamyrlin: 2004-12-17
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Some quotes against your theory:
Shadow Rising CHAPTER: 24 - Rhuidean: "Wise to ask leavetaking, when you set no price, no terms. Yet Fool not to first agree on price."
Winter's Heart CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal: Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!
Mat asked for three things of the *'Finns: to have the holes in his head filled, to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, and to be away from the Finns and back in Rhuidean. He got all three, but neglected to set a price for it. That meant the Finns could set whatever price they wished. Death may seem like the highest price to pay, but judging from Cyndane's comment about being held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn there are more pricy things than death.
2
logains glory: 2004-12-17
I don't really buy this theory for the simple fact that judging from Lanfear's character throughout the book, dying really wouldn't matter much to her, therefore, wouldn't be the highest price to pay. For someone as arrogant as Lanfear, I think having to be subserviant or less powerful would be a much higher price than death. Now, obviously she died since she is now in a different body, but I don't think the cause of her death was from the finns.
3
Jay al Ender: 2004-12-22
I think it's an interesting theory. But since the door was burned out the way back for them was sealed and the usual way of doing business was ruined. I think Lanfear would be more likely not to play by the rules and got herself in trouble with the powerful Finns. Moiraine on the other hand had already seen this possibility and knew the various outcomes. She knew what she needed to put in the note to Thom to eventually get rescued. I'm betting that it's only because Mat and Perrin haven't been together yet that she hasn't been saved.
I do like the idea of Lanfear being severed. I think she must have been healed by a woman. Hence the less power level. Guess that should be a separate theory....
4
Ashandarei: 2005-01-10
Ok, this is my first post at Theoryland, although I've been reading the boards for almost a year, so my post may be a little, err, rough around the edges. ;)
I agree that Lanfear was probably burned out when Moiraine ripped her angreal away. So once the two were inside Finnland I am sure Lanfear was still in her rage. Since she never proved herself to be the most rational of people, she made quick demands of the Finns that came to take her.
I imagine it went something like this:
Lanfear falls through into the star-shaped room, by herself all of a sudden and still in 'fighting mode' against Moiraine. The Aelfinn that comes to guide her to the others begins,
'A very long time'
Which is when Lanfear probably first noticed where she was. I would think that, her being an 2nd Age researcher, she recognized the Aelfinn for what he was. But since she is still in a fury, she does a few actions in haste. Maybe making a few rash demands... 'Send me back, vermin! I'll make that flaming backstabber BEG for mercy!'
Anyway, Lanfear uses up at least two of her requests if not all of them, and really ticks the Aelfinn off. I figure one of those requests is for an exit (like i gave my example), and maybe her Power back as well (if she had one left-over). So she gets them. Her payment would be the reduced strength or maybe even being sent back to be trapped by the mind-trap of Moridin (Moiraine does say in The Shadow Rising that there are dire consequences for dealing with topics touching the Shadow inside the ter'angreal)
Err, ok im blathering on now. To be honest, im not totally sure about what happened to Lanfear. But this topic was why Moiraine didnt die where Lanfear did. And i think that answer is that Moiraine knew what she was doing. She knew she was going to fall into the ter'angreal, and she knew to be cautious. So maybe she doesn't make three requests, and the Aelfinn have her. Or more likely, she made her three requests and received them, but is STILL trapped in their world. One of the things the Aelfinn tell Mat is:
'Wise to ask leavetaking, when you set no price, no terms.'
This tells me that the Aelfinn keep a good portion of their requesters with them, and only those who 'ask to leave' are allowed out. They probably kill them to make their human-skin clothes. Moiraine could have noticed that material choice and fitted into her terms of dealing. Dont kill me.
Not to mention she is Aes Sedai and very adept at swirling around statements and making cunning moves, so she could be at a standoff with them, trapped and awaiting rescue by good ol' Thom.
Allrighty then, im all done i think. Feel free to boost my idea or tear my theory to pieces. I love a good debate!
5
ImmDude123456: 2005-01-12
Has anyone thought that maybe Moraine actually killed Lanfear? The DO could still have transmigrated her soul and since it is possible going through the door stilled her she would be healed and have a lesser potential. I was simply thinking that maybe the Finns had no part in Lanfears death/transmigration/loss in strength in the OP.
And then as stated Moraine made some demands that might possibly have not been for herself but for Rand, Mat, and Perrin. But for some reason they could not kill her?
6
Callandor: 2005-01-13
**Has anyone thought that maybe Moraine actually killed Lanfear?**
Moiraine went into Finnland at the same time as Lanfear. Unless Lanfear died from this (and no one ever has from simply entering, although this could be an acception), it stands to chance that Lanfear and Moiraine never saw each other after that. Going off Rand, Mat, and Moiraine being in the Tear doorway all at the same time and never seeing each other, the Finns most likely keep the people seperate.
With this, if she survived the entering, she stayed alive until some other event.
We know she didn't die right away, because in Lanfear's POV she says outright that she was held by the Finns.
7
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-14
A really strange idea, if she asked for something for Rand et. al., she might have been kept alive because of it. She would have little more knowledge than Mat probably, but if Min's viewing reqires her to live, and she told the 'finns to have Rand win the LB, then she has to be alive.
8
Anubis: 2005-01-16
something these theories tend to ignore and i feel its pretty important. Cyndane, last chance. The name Ishmael gave to Lanfear. She doesnt like this name, and it amuses him. The name alone makes it clear that Ishmael is at the very least knowledgable about Lanfears death. It strongly implies that he played a role in her transmitigation, and her... reeducation.
Also, keep in mind that Lanfear BETRAYED the Dark One. Name one living person who has done that. Exactly.
9
Callandor: 2005-01-19
**The name Ishmael gave to Lanfear.**
Where is it stated that Ishamael gave her the name? Moghedien first mentions it, and everyone else simply knows the translation, not the giver. Plus, I don't remember it being mentioned where Moridin was amused by Cyndane's name; I know she didn't like it, but I don't remember Moridin's amusment.
**name alone makes it clear that Ishmael is at the very least knowledgable about Lanfears death.**
What death?
**Also, keep in mind that Lanfear BETRAYED the Dark One. Name one living person who has done that. Exactly.**
Padan Fain techincally has. And Lanfear technically hasn't; she tried to kill Rand when there wasn't a no kill Rand order, and she can give away the excuse that she was baiting Rand to join the Shadow as her hints at subversion. Plus, look at how she reacts when she tells Rand about being the in the presence of the Dark One -- she LIKES it. If you want to point a finger at the Forsaken closest to actual betraying of the Dark One, it's Graendal with her plotting with Sammael.
10
Went: 2005-01-24
How young is Cyndane described to be? Young as a Moiraine that has lost the influence of the three oths? (Strong as a Moiraine?)
Just wanted to hear your thoughts.
11
Callandor: 2005-01-25
**How young is Cyndane described to be? Young as a Moiraine that has lost the influence of the three oths? (Strong as a Moiraine?)**
Cyndane is Lanfear, whether transmigrated or in her natural form.
She is not Moiraine for the following reasons:
1. She's got silver hair, not black/brown (can't remember specifically at the moment for some odd reason).
2. She maybe strong for an Aes Sedai, but Egwene, Elayne, and Avi out class her, and Nynaeve out classes them and she is around lower Forsaken strength. Cyndane surpasses Graendal. There is a huge strength gap.
3. Moiraine doesn't have a huge rack (sexist comment, yes yes, but it's true).
12
Volpe: 2007-02-16
I dont believe that Lanfear was ever severed, because as i read somewhere else, the soul stays the same, no matter what the body. IE)Aran'gar is a women, but still channels saidin.
So im thinking that if she was severed before death, she would have been severed when she as transmaigrated.
13
Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-20
Volpe:
*** I dont believe that Lanfear was ever severed, because as i read somewhere else, the soul stays the same, no matter what the body. IE)Aran'gar is a women, but still channels saidin. ***
Yes, the gender of the soul stays the same, which as you note is why Halima/Aran'gar channels saidin. One place this is noted is in interviews with RJ:
-----
Q: But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so...
A: So the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangable.
-----
*** So im thinking that if she was severed before death, she would have been severed when she as transmaigrated. ***
RJ has stated when questioned that burning out and stilling do not affect the next life:
-----
Q: Since the ability to channel seems to be primarily linked to the soul, if a Channeler is gentled/stilled, will this affect his/her soul in a follow life as well, as in, will the ability to Channel still be lost?
A: No.
Q: How does burning out affect ones ability to channel in the next life. Specifically, will an individual born with the spark but who burns out during his or her life, have the inborn spark in a subsequent life?
A: I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.
-----
14
JakOShadows: 2007-02-20
Volpe:
I don't think that's quite true. Because then if a person was stilled and then reborn later, they still wouldn't be able to channel. And as far as I know, that isn't the case.
When a person is stilled, I think that the connection between the body and soul that allows channeling is cut. Because a stilled person can still see the weaves being used. So I disagree with you about that.
15
Gandelail: 2007-02-20
Severing isn't done in the soul. The soul has an ability to touch the True Source. Severing can be healed, and is an attribute of the body. Once transmigrated she would be able to channel again, the same would be true of a soul reborn rather than transmigrated.
