1
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-29
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
A new take to an old saw. i hope SDog sees this one, considering he wrote the Lanfear was Artificially Enhanced theory
Are you saying that Mierin went through to the Finns before the Bore was drilled? She was a well-known researcher at that point, and became infamous once the Bore was drilled. After the Bore, i'd bet anyone on the street could pick her out of a crowd.
Lanfear saying someone being stronger than her is impossible. Has anyone considered that's just her ego talking?
With Osan'gar and Aran'gar, we know that they are old souls in modern bodies. Have we seen a quote saying Cyndane came from local stock? That would punch a hole in this theory very quickly.
2
hale: 2005-06-29
Having just re-read the series up to half through WH, I can safely say to this point nothing has been mentioned of Cyndane being a "current breed". The most that is known so far is that she is still extremely powerful (more powerful than Moghedian, but less powerful than Lanfear) and that she seems to have intimate knowledge of the Age of Legends.
I don't LIKE this theory, but thusfar it is perfectly plausible. The reason I don't like it is simple:
Morraine never made a trip to this finnland, thus why would she be held while Lanfear who has breached the rules of the Snakepeople be let go with rather minor penalties?
3
joebball1212: 2005-06-29
Cyndane is Lanfear whether you guys like it or not. She openly said In WH in the last chapter "With the Choeden Kal" that when she saw Lews Therin with a woman from this age she immediately became jealous because she offered to share that power with him and he turned her down yet again. She also admitted to being held by the Finn, and unless you think it was Moiraine who was turned to the shadow by thirteen black sisters channeling through thirteen myrdraal then it definitely points to Lanfear.
4
Anubis: 2005-06-30
**Lanfear saying someone being stronger than her is impossible. Has anyone considered that's just her ego talking?**
Somewhere it is mentioned that someone, Sharina I think, might grow to be as powerfull as it is for a woman to be. (quotemasters GO! :D) This proves that the idea of there being a maximum power exists. Considering that Lanfear was naturally the strongest for a long long time, she could easily have been arrogant enough to assume she was at the pinnacle (if it even exists).
5
Anubis: 2005-06-30
**This does not add up. How do you account for the difference in strength? There are many theories out there from Lanfear was stilled and then Healed by a BA Sister to the Finns swapped Lanfear's and Moiraine's strength**
I disagree with all of these. I say that the Finns did it. From what we have seen of the Finns they like to take what is most valuable to a person. Mats freedom for example.
6
Jain Farstrider: 2005-06-30
I like his theory. It covers a lot of holes other theories couldn't, without being farfetched, or unrealistic in a plot-style manner IMO.
"Are you saying that Mierin went through to the Finns before the Bore was drilled? She was a well-known researcher at that point, and became infamous once the Bore was drilled. After the Bore, i'd bet anyone on the street could pick her out of a crowd."
Well, not if the reason she became a famous researcher was thanks to the advantages she got from the Finn trip. Everyone would recognise the new Mierin (Lanfear) then, and not the person she used to be (Cyndane).
7
reTaardad: 2005-06-30
It's odd that the other day, I was thinking about how rare it would be for the most beautiful woman in the world to be the most powerful female channeler in the world. I don't believe this theory, but it's very original. No vote from me, but definite props. I will find it interesting, though, if this proves to be true.
But Cyndane was thinking to herself how Alivia was stronger than she before she was held by the Finns. The fact that she was held captive says that she wasn't initially released. Also, the span of time seems fitting with the process of transmigration, i.e. Aginor, Balthamel, and Ishamael. So Lanfear was more than likely transmigrated.
8
Hank McCoy: 2005-06-30
Frenzy Wrote:
"Are you saying that Mierin went through to the Finns before the Bore was drilled? She was a well-known researcher at that point, and became infamous once the Bore was drilled. After the Bore, i'd bet anyone on the street could pick her out of a crowd."
Before the Bore. Ya betcha! Before she met LTT. Heck, she could have been the first in the AOL to go through the door.
9
Dumai Wells: 2005-06-30
I believe that both Lanfear and Moiraine were stilled when they went through the doorway. There was too much of the one power being channelled, plus we have Lan being cut from his bond. This is not proof enough, but lets look at it logically. The only way to beat the finns is to cheat, we know that clearly. If you play the game(meaning if you make a wish) they will extract their price and if the wish is strong enough, meaning anything to do with either the power or the shadow etc. they might decide to take your life. Mat wanted a way to be rid of Aes Sedai and the power, they gave him the medallion but Killed him. We know Cyndane is Lanfear, the only way for her to be Cyndane(transmigration) is for her to have DIED. I believe they were both stilled, neutralizing eachother, so when they got to finnland they could not kill eachother with the power. Then the foxes came, asking their mandatory music,iron,fire questions and asked to grant the wishes, lanfear automatically asks to be restored of stilling(remember even if she does not know about the new discovery for HUMANS to heal this, the foxes are a different species and their powers are differnt. logically you know lanfear would ask them to restore her power, i mean if they have the power to grant wishes like genies, restoring being stilled is not something unimaginable and i believe she asked them)..for a reason unknown to us readers at this time, she is healed but not the full extent of her former ability but still immensely strong, remember Cyndane is stronger than Greandal. Guess what happens next, the foxes kill her after her other two wishes are granted. Moiraine may have or may not have witnessed lanfear being killed by them. my guess is that she did not witness it, remember that her, rand, and mat were inside the Tear doorway together but had no idea that each was in there until they came out, however mat rand and moiraine went in seperately where as lanfear and moiraine fell in together.
Anyway, my point is that Moiraine is smart enough to know not to make a wish. She knows that "questions about the power or the shadow have dire consequences" so she refrains from PLAYING THEIR GAME. BECAUSE SHE KNOWS I CANT BEAT THEM WITHOUT CHEATING, THE'LL KILL ME EVERYTIME. So.. the DO gives Lanfear her "LAST CHANCE", (thats what the name "Cyndane" translates into), gives her a new body and thats how lanfear got out of finnland. remember after they killed mat he was hanging from a cord outside ruidien when rand found him. so it stands to reason that the finns kicked her body out of finnland after they killed her. SO, Moiraine is stilled, and trapped with the foxes possibly waiting for thom to come and get her, and Lanfear is Cyndane, old soul, new body without a doubt
10
SDog: 2005-06-30
Anubis: Somewhere it is mentioned that someone, Sharina I think, might grow to be as powerfull as it is for a woman to be.
We'll definitely want a quote for that one.
Of course I like the theory that Lanfear was artificially enhanced. My theory doesn't point to the Finns as the source, but offers them as one alternative.
Another thing... Transmigration is not made impossible by her strength difference. If she was enhanced artificially, then died, it stands to reason that her transmigration would bring her back to her old strength.
Hank:I have yet to read a theory that adequately proves why Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear other than they are not the same soul/person.
Well, see my Lanfear Was Artificial theory. See if that suffices.
Your theory specifically doesn't address why she is called by a different name, if she is still Lanfear. Any ideas?
11
Richard: 2005-06-30
I like this theory very much:
"Moraine never made a trip to this finnland, thus why would she be held while Lanfear who has breached the rules of the Snakepeople be let go with rather minor penalties? "
.... And who says Moraine is being held? Moraine knew what was going to happened that day. She had seen it in the waste. Pluss she had received three answers from the foxes. What if she is there because she "has to". That is, because she was told by the foxes (or in the waste) that she would have to fake her death. Or, my personal favorite, who's to say she's still there (I know, I have read the theories with Mat or Tom). I always thought that she would have had her three wishes -- and a price, and the price is why she has not returned. My problem was always about Lanfear... But this theory has put my head spinning with ideas. I always thought that going back to finnland for Moraine was a weak reason, she is presumed dead, period (I mean she fought Lanfear!). We all know that it is Mat the one going to finnland again (the snake and foxes game he keeps on playing with Olver) the reaons are 100's: the medallion, that nasty creature following him, Tuon, revenge, something else he wants so badly he'll risk it, etc. I have never thought Moraine a good enough reason for going back.
12
Ruthie: 2005-06-30
I think that this theory is more possible than many of the Lanfear/Cyndane theories that are floating around. I would add to your list of Lanfear's wishes that she must have wished to be back in Randland (similar to how Matt did accidently in his trip) otherwise she might not have gotten out in the first place, had she wished for knowledge or something else. I see the wishes as you get two plus a chance to get back to Randland and that has to be number three or you're in big trouble. Good Theorizing.
13
JakOShadows: 2005-06-30
This is very well thought out. It seems to make logical sense. And the third wish could be to become a very good researcher, so she could have guaranteed he ability to gain fame and it would have to be after she went in. I did have another pet theory though that I just wanted to through out there. What if the DO gave Lanfear a body that could handle as much of the OP as she could? There was one theory brought in connection with the soul and body as far the OP. And I theorized there that if the body did not have the ability to channel, then even if your soul could channel that connection could not be made. Hence, the people that could learn to channel, but it took time. Maybe they had a weaker connection to the OP through their body. Now what I am trying to say here is that if the DO gave her weaker body as punishment, then it would weaken her ability to channel. Now granted it is rather flimsy and a lot of supposition, but I just wanted to throw another option out there. Yours does make a lot more logical sense.
14
matoyak: 2005-06-30
sooo...are u saying that lanny was evil before the drilling of the bore...i am confused...but if i unnerstand u right then it is highly possible (not her being evil [pre-bore i mean...]...her being ummmmm...enhanced)
15
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-06-30
Just to say, i agree with this thoery in principle, but there is proof that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear. In a meeting between the Chosen, the one that Mesaana was punished for missing no less, we see things from Demandred's POV and he actually says that he thought her Lanfear reborn until Graendal told him that she was weaker than her, while Lanfear had always been stronger. While I am not in any way saying that the Chosen do not lie to each other, I AM saying that Graendal has no obvious reason to lie to him about such an inconsequential point.
16
hale: 2005-06-30
Richard Wrote:
"We all know that it is Mat the one going to finnland again (the snake and foxes game he keeps on playing with Olver) the reaons are 100's: the medallion, that nasty creature following him, Tuon, revenge, something else he wants so badly he'll risk it, etc. I have never thought Moraine a good enough reason for going back."
We have more indication that it will be Thom going to Finnland, with perhaps Matrim being a catalyst to that event. Thom was seen in Egwyne's first "dreams" as pulling Morraine's blue stone from a fire.
This suggests the Morraine is either in captive or some kind of peril and it suggests that Thom will be the one to rescue her. Personally, I don't believe Matrim will be directly involved as you would assume that he would be in the dream if he were. Since Matrim and Thom are currently together though I would not be suprised to see Matrim being the reason Thom goes to Morraines aid.
It seems to me Mat has quite enough on his plate without rescuing Morraine.
17
Richard: 2005-07-01
I think you're right hale. It'll be Tom then. But the theory is sound then. Lanfear was punished by the Finns for coming back (take away the wishes) and Moraine is probably haveing some problems with the price... After all, poor old Mat almost lost it there.
18
joebball1212: 2005-07-01
You guys keep saying "3 wishes were used for" if I remember correctly the doorway for 3 wishes was in the basement of the stone of tear. This doorway came from Rhuidean. The one from tear is 3 wishes, the one from Rhuidean is 7 demands. Remember Matt kept asking his wishes and they jst sat there? Then he goes "I want to be out of here I want to be free of Aes Sedai, I want these holes filled..." and all the rest? My point is that there could be a lot more to it than you guys are giving credit for. You can get a lot more of your desires from 7 demands than 3 wishes, and that takes this whole "Moiraine and Lanfear: what happened in Finnland" controversey to another level.
19
red hand: 2005-07-01
i don't believe that she could go thru the doorway twice. mat jumped thru and only passed thru a door to other side. perhaps this doorway would be different since you are bargaining for gifts not letting them go thru your "thread".
richard: you would not need to save your third wish to get out. you can bargain for anything that you can pay for. mat's third wish was "to be out of this place" they sent him out but the price was his life. that is why his body was put out. he wished it. it wasn't that they kick out bodies after they kill you.
the whole key to this doorway is to bargain for the price of your gifts. mat did not, he just shouted out what he wanted and they set the price.
i believe that is why morraine has not been seen. she is not willing to let them set the price of what she wants.
20
SDog: 2005-07-01
"You guys keep saying "3 wishes were used for" if I remember correctly the doorway for 3 wishes was in the basement of the stone of tear. This doorway came from Rhuidean. The one from tear is 3 wishes, the one from Rhuidean is 7 demands. Remember Matt kept asking his wishes and they jst sat there? Then he goes "I want to be out of here I want to be free of Aes Sedai, I want these holes filled..." and all the rest? My point is that there could be a lot more to it than you guys are giving credit for. You can get a lot more of your desires from 7 demands than 3 wishes, and that takes this whole "Moiraine and Lanfear: what happened in Finnland" controversey to another level.You do not remember correctly, Joebball.
The doorway in Tear is to the Ael'finn of whom you can ask three questions and get three answers.
The doorway in Rhuidean is supposedly where you make "wishes" (though we don't know for sure). I'm not even sure we know you only get three wishes, or whether we just assumed that based on the Tear door.
I believe Mat just happened to make a bunch of demands, and they wanted his arse out of there.
21
Callandor: 2005-07-02
**You guys keep saying "3 wishes were used for" if I remember correctly the doorway for 3 wishes was in the basement of the stone of tear. This doorway came from Rhuidean. The one from tear is 3 wishes, the one from Rhuidean is 7 demands.**
The Tear doorway was the doorway to the Aelfinn -- there one can ask 3 questions, and get 3 answers, though the answers are always 100% correct just very hard to understand.
The Rhuidean doorway, which Mat went through and eventually Moiraine and Lanfear, leads to the Eelfinn, where one can ask 3 wishes via striking bargains; they are always given and fulfilled, but they are twisted as much as possible by the Eelfinn because they are twixy bastards ;)
22
matoyak: 2005-07-02
ummm guys...what are y'all talking about? the one in tear was 3 questions, the one in rhuidean was 3 wishes (with a price)...and the [b]ONLY[/b] reason mat got all of those questions was that there were 3 people in there and 2 of those being ta'veren! (that IS what moriane said after they all got out of the question one in tear, right?) it was messing with the finns, and they kinda messed up. and the reason i no it was 3 questions and 3 wishes was the BWB and it tells u there, also just go bak and read the books again...fires of heaven and the dragon reborn IIRC (quotemasters?)
23
alivia: 2005-07-03
**Somewhere it is mentioned that someone, Sharina I think, might grow to be as powerfull as it is for a woman to be.**
Here is the quote:
Crossroads of Twilight; Ch: 17 - Secrets(from Tiana - Salidar's Mistress of Novices)
"Or Sharina's," she added with a grimace, hands smoothing her skirts in irritation. Sharina's potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anyone in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation. "
btw -
I like this theory - I could see Lanfear asking to be the absolute best in anything.
24
Birgitte: 2005-07-05
Just wanted to correct something.
Hale said,"Morraine never made a trip to this finnland."
Actually Moiraine has been to Finnland. She went through the doorway at Tear. And we've seen with Mat's experience that no matter which of the two doorways you go to, you are only allowed one without really bad consequenes (such as being hanged).
Anyways, interesting theory. I'm not sure if I believe it or not, but it is certainly a creative twist to the old theory.
25
ranman38: 2005-07-05
Well our current culture is replete with examples of the "best" also being the most "beautiful" So to answer an earlier reply, it clearly is possible tha Lanfear was NATURALLY the most beautiful AND most powerful. Somebody has to be! :)
26
Yaga Shura: 2005-07-05
"And we've seen with Mat's experience that no matter which of the two doorways you go to, you are only allowed one without really bad consequenes (such as being hanged)."
the wish finns are tricky characters anyway. i think it was because Mat failed to secure a bargain, or to be specific enough in asking to leave, that he was hanged, not because he was going through his second doorway.
27
hale: 2005-07-06
Matrim was never punished for his second trip to Finnland, he was punished because he never set the price to the bargain. That leads me to believe a person is allowed one trip through each doorway and not to Finnland it's self.
28
Birgitte: 2005-07-07
It could be just that, I suppose, but I don't really think so. Its more likely to be a combination of Mat going to Finnland twice and them just being tricky. I definitely think that it being his second trip to Finnland had at least a little to do with it, but I agree with you in that some of it was just the Finns being the Finns.
29
Anubis: 2005-07-07
The finns tell mat why bad things are about to happen to him. They say, and im paraphrasing, "wise to ask for a way out, but foolish not to set a price". because mat did not set a price, the finns did and their prices are mean. (though if you think about it they didnt really do much to mat besides give him a scar)
30
rimorob: 2005-07-12
Sounds right. 3rd wish might well have been to be a great researcher. As for paying the price, going by the theory that the price of a wish is something you hold most dear, the price might have been losing Lews Therin. There's the obvious hole in this proposition: Lanfear was likely to have met Lews Therin only AFTER her trip to the Foxes.
31
Traveller: 2005-07-17
I think this theory is really good and makes sense, but I have a problem with the fact that you think Lanfear has already escaped. We know that Thom and Mat are somehow going to be involved in saving Moiraine. This is commonly interpreted as saving her form the Ael/Eelfinn. I think that if Lanfear could have escaped already, then so could Moiraine. However I do think that you could be right and Thom and Mat could save Moiraine in a different way.
32
Baean AimaDe: 2005-08-01
"Lanfear was likely to have met Lews Therin only AFTER her trip to the Foxes."
Don't see how that's a hole in the theory.
As to Moiraine having to be free if Lanfear is , Remember that Lanfear was one of the Premier Scientists of her age, Her knowledge ( even tho flawed as all the forsaken's is ) would be Vastly Superior to Moiraines Still.
Also , In the Scene with the Choedan Kal , Cyndane thinks Alivia was "More powerful than She was before the Aelfinn and Elfinn Held her, She MUST be holding an Angreal".
There is no "and she" or "maybe she" but she "Must Be". Lanfear was arrogant to a fault but she was aware of her limitations and didn't think herself infallible. Yet She was Genuinely Astonished at finding Someone More powerful than her.
This Indicates that while Alivia May have been a Super Sedai, She still shouldn't have been that powerful ( more powerful than Pre rereincarnate Lanfear ).
Also remember, Lanfear was thinking this to herself , she had no-one to impress with her ego besides herself and that was shattered pretty good by losing the strength and beauty
33
The Grinning Man: 2005-08-09
There is no "and she" or "maybe she" but she "Must Be". Lanfear was arrogant to a fault but she was aware of her limitations and didn't think herself infallible. Yet She was Genuinely Astonished at finding Someone More powerful than her.
This Indicates that while Alivia May have been a Super Sedai, She still shouldn't have been that powerful ( more powerful than Pre rereincarnate Lanfear ).
Also remember, Lanfear was thinking this to herself , she had no-one to impress with her ego besides herself and that was shattered pretty good by losing the strength and beauty
I like this one. Lanfear was a crazy possesive woman, but she was also cold, calculating and very intelligent. She was willing to give it all up for Rand but not until they were ready. The limit as to how strong a woman can become is only set by the strongest woman that anyone knows. Since theres no "lvl cap" that we've yet seen thats been put in place by the creator we can safely assume that parts of both arguements are correct.
34
Caracarn: 2007-02-19
As a possible explanation for the strength drop if Lanfear simply died is that we know the DO has a mild sense of humour when reincarnating the Chosen (Balthamel as a woman). We also know he is not very accepting of failure, I believe that when the 'gars are introduced Osan'gar is fairly certain this is his final shot. Is it possible that along with giving her the name "Last Chance" the DO punished Lanfear for her failure by weakening her? We know that Lanfear and Ishy were close in strength which was part of the reason Lanfear resisted following Ishy's orders so by making her weaker the DO forced her to defer to Ishy
35
lordsochaos: 2009-05-27
Has anyone proposed the Idea that Moraine and Lanfear now co-habitate the same body/consciousness not unlike the connection slayer Isam/luc share? I mean Lanfear may look different but maybe its Moraines body sans Aes sedai Oaths? (she would revert to a younger look when the oaths no longer bound the body) making her all but unrecognizable....just something to chew on.
36
Kallaes: 2009-07-09
Personally, I lean towards Lanfear’s current body being insufficient to support the strength her old body could. To me it seems obvious that there is something physical about a body that limits the strength of a woman. How else can they know the potential of a woman who is just learning to touch the source? She is far from being able to draw that much, yet her potential is already known. That is actually specific to women since a man’s potential is not known until he stops gaining strength.
I have seen many arguments against this and they usually stem from the fact that neither the ‘Gars or Moridin are indicated as being weaker than they were. The argument is of questionable validity seeing how often the differences between Saidar and Saidin and male and female channellers are pointed out. The fact that a woman’s full potential is readily apparent while a man’s is not sheds doubt on it. Differences between men and women aside, in some ways it makes sense since they were the first to be transmigrated. We are told that the ‘Gars received the best that was available. According to Jordan, Moridin simply got lucky to have a physically imposing body. The bodies need to be suitable for the Dark Ones purposes so why should part of that suitability not involve how much of the One Power that body can be a conduit for? The descriptions used to embrace the source also tend to support the idea of the body governing the ability. The process of embracing the source is repeatedly referred to as a holding and filling of the person. That leads directly to the idea that a given body can only hold so much. Being later in line for transmigration it would make sense that they best, aka most capable, bodies would already be issued to someone else.
Furthermore, we have Lanfear’s statements concerning Alivia. I think it was more than simple arrogance. Lanfear rightly determined that Alivia was using an angreal or sa’angreal and we cannot ignore that fact. That gives some weight to the concept of a maximum strength. Jordan said strength was distributed on a Bell Curve. I’m a little rusty here, but what I remember of that would indicate that the closer to the upper reaches you are, the fewer people will be in your class. Lanfear was freakishly strong and at the extreme upper end of the curve. If the body controlled the maximum strength, the chances of finding another that would support her original level are extremely slim.
