Tamyrlin: 2010-10-06

After what we see happen in The Gathering Storm, and considering the sheer quantity of Aes Sedai taken, I'm having a hard time believing Egwene would ever be able to come to some agreement with the Seanchan. It's a radical idea for sure, that Egwene would somehow be responsible for a truce with the Seanchan...and I'm still trying to imagine how/why she'd pull it off. Why would Tuon make a deal? I guess if we take the dream literally, Egwene will be out of choices. Is it possible Egwene will be taken captive or forced into a truce/treaty discussion? Interesting translation. I'm sure, as Egwene has been a hot topic lately, others will have something to stay.

Clyve: 2010-10-07

I don't think that this is a terrible idea for a theory, however there seem to be a couple inconsistencies. Some parts of the dream are being taken literally and some metaphorically. You take the cliff to be metaphoric. That makes sense, I can't see that representing an acutal rock edifice either. But then the sword on the melifluous Seanchan is concrete. What if the sword solely points to the fact that she IS Seanchan, and not specifically one who literally wields a sword. This leaves open the possibility that this could be Tuon, the new Empress. Which makes more sense than a rogue Seanchan swordswoman who has no real pull in the Seanchan community if Egwene is indeed going to be the one to soothe the Seanchan-Randland chasm. I don't have support for any of this on hand, but it's something to consider.

Tercel: 2010-10-07

Now that the Seanchan have Traveling (or are about to get it) from their Aes Sedai captives, Rand and Egwene are going to need to come up with a solution to them FAST. Let us hope that Egwene has the wisdom to inform Rand that Seanchan have Traveling when next they meet!

Your theory seems pretty good. Egwene is going to have to do something about the Seanchan soon (or get Rand to). Leilwin has indeed gone 'down' the slope to get to Egwene in the sense of receiving significant demotion within the Seanchan nobility. Any attempt by Egwene as Amyrlin to open negotiations with the Seanchan is likely to encounter severe difficulties. Leilwin could indeed help Egwene with that. I am left wondering whether the dream bodes badly for Egwene's physical safety when trying to deal with the Seanchan (is she going to get made Damane again and freed?), or whether it merely represents an initial failure in negotiations that is able to be rectified with Leilwin's aid.

Unfortunately we have conflicting prophecies about Rand's involvement - is he going to bow to the Crystal Throne or is going to bind the Nine Moons to serve him? RJ always commented there had been tampering involved in at least one set of the prophecies here.

Viktaar: 2010-10-07

The dream may still refer to her climb to the amyrlin seat, because the seanchan attack made most AS realise that she was fit for the job and in an indirect way helping her climb. In this case the seanchan woman in the dream would be just a symbol for the seanchans. But I might be wrong, after all she already had one dream about the attack and it would be kind of overkill to have another about the same attack...

Luckers: 2010-10-07

I don't think it can be so easily sustained that the Seanchan woman is Egeanin/Leilwin. It is far more likely, to me, that the Seanchan 'woman' represents an army led (or directed) by Fortuona to Egwene's aid. Consider the way the face wavers, yet the sword remains rock solid--indicative that the woman is many people, unified under the sword--in effect, an army. The figure's overall femininity is defined by the one who leads it, or directs its actions--Fortuona.

Specifically I suggest the mountain they can climb together is a battle against Shadowspawn. Things are not going well for Egwene when Fortuona arrives, but together they fight through and wins.

Coz Tam has a valid point--I don't see either proactively seeking an alliance with the other. Rather it shall have to be forced upon them by a common foe.

arioch: 2010-10-07

The Seanchan "Path of Daggers" metaphor visualization is hard to ignore, though. I do think Egeanin/Leilwin will end up being the Seanchan in Tar Valon when Rand finally gets to meet Egwene, and maybe Justice will be handed over to her at that point for her and Egwene to make some sort of political push with Fortuona.

natasharma: 2010-10-08

I am not certain we can summarize that the Seanchan woman is Egeanin. It could just as easily be Tylee, who we have seen to grow to like her enemies (Perrin & Co).

Also, i would like to say that it is unlikely now that Rand will bind the Nine Moons to him. As we know that Tuon is dead. Fortuona is the Empress now. There is no position of Daughter of the Nine Moons anymore. So, i guess he will bend to the Crystal Throne.

eht slat meit: 2010-10-08

Natasharma: A point about syntax...

Tuon was not the "Nine Moons." She was the -Daughter of- the Nine Moons. To mistake them for each other would be like saying... being the son of Ronald Reagan makes me Ronald Reagan. The daughter position may be gone, but the Nine Moons to which she was ranked lesser still exists.

Rand is foretold to bind the Nine Moons to him, not the daughter.

wotfreak222: 2010-10-08

@EHT SLAT MEIT/NATASHARMA....
It is true that Tuon is no longer Daughter of the Nine Moons....I believe "Nine Moons" is another title for the Seanchan Empress. It is possible that her formal title could be "Empress of the Nine Moons". So in other words, when referring to the "Daughter of the Nine Moons" you are actually saying "Daughter of the Empress". Rand was never fated to bind Tuon to him, the prophecy refers to binding the "Nine Moons", not the "Daughter of the Nine Moons". Rand will, in fact, somehow bind Fortuona (aka the Empress of the Nine Moons) to him.

FelixPax: 2010-10-09

I agree that Leilwin/Egeanin is mostly likely the Seanchan woman in question, for this particular Dream Foretelling of Egwene's. However, I find the interpretation of outcomes a bit wanting--why?

The cliff in question is seems like an object Leilwin's now husband Bayle Domon once described to Thom, Rand, Mat on his ship in tEotW book, besides being the same object Queen Ethenielle describes in tPoD Prologue--partially buried Giant Sa'angreal, dating back to the Age of Legends. Even Lord Turak likely known of this Item of the Power--likewise Empress Fortuona via Turak's reports. Where is this Giant Sa'angreal? The Black Hills.

For more of my reasoning about this Black Hill Giant Sa'angreal see this thread, please.

Separately, this theory seems to give Egwene al'Vere a more important and privileged role in the future outcome of relations between the White Tower and the Seanchan Empire than I think will occur--based on an Aelfinn Answer to one of Rand's question: "The two must be as one."

Who has a larger role to play in these relations, between Seanchan and the White Tower?

Mat Cauthon. Empress Fortuona's own husband is a person, who has already saved Egwene's neck once before.

This Theory makes a claim about Egwene tying the Aiel to the White Tower... ignoring Aviendra's own prior judgment on this matter: Wise Ones do not want to become Aes Sedai. Besides this Theory omits a competing Hypothesis that Mat Cauthon is the "He Who Comes With the Dawn", who is the UNITER of 'the People'.

(Rand's the DESTROYER version, of "He Who Comes With the Dawn". As Rhuarc once claims 'He Who Comes With the Dawn' does not have to be one individual, but can be more than one.)

What did Mat Cauthon ask the Aelfinn? And what was their answer?

Question: "Should I go home to my people?"
Answer: "You must go to Rhuidean."

Who are Mat Cauthon People?

All the descendants of the Jenn Aiel or Da'Shain Aiel. Be it Sea Folk Clans, Aiel Clans, Tinkers, the surviving Amayar living on Seanchan held islands and every one of their social outcasts. Even those cast out as 'Lost' in Ila's eyes--Rendra, Liandrin.

Egwene al'Vere and the Aes Sedai haven't protected any of the Da'Shain Aiel various descendants--whether Aiel, Sea Folk, Amayar nor their social outcasts. Who has protected them? Mat Cauthon, repeatedly. Even Mat Cauthon wife enabled the protection of what remains of the Amayar, by cutting them off from the knowledge of events occurring on Tremalking.

Who can the Empress see as an relative equal? Who can look her in the eyes?

Her husband, Mat Cauthon.

Mat Cauthon can do things Egwene al'Vere cannot, to gain Fortuona's trust and approval. Mat Cauthon is the common link of trust, between the Seanchan Empire and the White Tower.

eht slat meit: 2010-10-09

Wotfreak: It's entirely possible that the "Nine Moons" is a title representing all of the Seanchan Empire, and that it is the Seanchan he will bind to him, not the Empress.

Myth: 2010-10-09

I think the woman in the dream is a representation of the Seanchan Empire, with Tuon, who is organizing a war, as the leader. I know somebody mentioned this, I am on a slow computer tonight so I cannot see names, I am not meaning to leave you out, sorry. I also believe their thoughts that it will be unity to win the last battle rather than the truce with Rand, the simple fact that both sides will put aside their animosity to do battle agains the DO is enough. I think that the reason the face changes is like was said, it is a representation of the Seanchan as a whole.

Marie Curie 7: 2010-10-09

Viktarr:
"The dream may still refer to her climb to the amyrlin seat, because the seanchan attack made most AS realise that she was fit for the job and in an indirect way helping her climb. In this case the seanchan woman in the dream would be just a symbol for the seanchans. But I might be wrong, after all she already had one dream about the attack and it would be kind of overkill to have another about the same attack..."

Actually, we know that the Dream does not refer to Egwene's climb to the Amyrlin Seat. Brandon has said that the dream is not yet fulfilled:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

Mato: Have the visions and other such prophecies about Egwene and the Seanchan (such as the running one and the one with the sword) have they been fulfilled yet?

Sanderson: No, none of those have been fulfilled other than the attack on the White Tower. She still has more to go.

In addition, in the Dream Egwene has a choice to accept the assistance or not:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In The Night

The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

If the dream were symbolic of the Seanchan attack acting as the catalyst that put Egwene in control as Amyrlin Seat of a united Tower, then there would have been no choice to take the offered assistance. Egwene in the dream has control over reaching out and taking the hand of that Seanchan woman. It's offered help, not simply an event (like the Seanchan attack) that Egwene has no control over accepting or not. Therefore, it was not fulfilled by the Seanchan attack.

Songsinger: 2010-10-10

Luckers: 2010-10-07
I don't think it can be so easily sustained that the Seanchan woman is Egeanin/Leilwin. It is far more likely, to me, that the Seanchan 'woman' represents an army led (or directed) by Fortuona to Egwene's aid.

Nice theory but it cannot be UNLESS they have forgotten this one.......

Egwene thinks of her dreams in The Dragon Reborn "Following the craft" ..... Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchen.......

Squocka: 2010-10-11

Thanks for all the comments I will try to answer you all.

1. Tamyrlin: I agree that it would be very difficult for Egwene to go this far and the benefit to Tuon im still thinking on I took this theory a bit further than I had originally planned for the sake of discussion. But now after the new Apples chapter perhaps Rand is going to see Egwene to tell her she must make a truce which is the “thing she wont like”

2. Clyve: I see your point on the metaphor, Only that the sword is not really a Seanchan symbol “a Raven perhaps” but I don’t think a sword symbol would mean the Race in general.

3. Tercel: Thanks, unrelated to this theory is the Nine Moons but I take that as Mat having done for him already he married her so by default can be bound through Mat.

4. Viktaar: I don’t see the need for 2 dreams to relate to the same event but is possible and the sword as stated above is not a Seanchan symbol.

5. Luckers: As said above I don’t believe that the sword is a seanchan symbol, the wavering face I see the point. I will think more

6. Arioch: path of daggers metaphor what did I miss or am I just not thinking straight

7. Natasharma: Tylee hasn’t climbed down the off the mountain like Leilwin has, as for the 9 moons I think Mat did it for him by proxy

8. Eht Slat Meit: Right

9. Wotfreak222: I think its done but that’s another topic

10. Felixpax: The object domon described was the female sa angeeal that Nynaeve melted during the clensing and the Amayar committed suicide. Rand is runnig ut of time he has too much to do why not enlist the Amyrlin seat to arrange a truce that’s their job. Rands answers from Eelfinn don’t mean he has to do it just it has to happen. Tying the Aiel to the white tower NO NO NO she though about the Sea folk and the Aiel as being autonomous but perhaps may cross train etc and the Kin as retirement, the comment was to state that she has already decided upon other options so why not a new one. Mat cauthon He who comes with the dawn im not talking about that, but yes I agree that Mat will assist in the truce.

11. More 9 moons

12. Myth: As above sword example

13. Marie Curie 7: Thanks for the info I hadn’t heard that

14. Songsinger: I forgot about the Dragon reborn theory but it just supports my 1 woman not an army that I have been poorly defending with the sword not a Seanchan symbol.

Anyway great discussion. Bring on Nov 2.

Luckers: 2010-10-11

@ Songsinger
The dream of a Seanchan woman standing with Egwene against Rand isn't mutually exclusive with the 'Seanchan woman with a sword' being an army led by Fortuona. They could quite easily refer to two seperate things.

There are already Seanchan women in the Tower who will likely end up standing with Egwene--the captured damane. In addition there are Bethamin and Seta who seem to wish to become Aes Sedai. It seems very likely to me that should they convince Egwene to let them, they would end up supporting her with great fervour (Egwene granting someone who has so wronged her a second chance would be a pretty powerful way of securing loyalty).

FelixPax: 2010-10-11

After some thought, I am unsure exactly when and where Egwene al'Vere will meet up Leilwin Shipless. Two places come to mind: Tar Valon, Caemlyn.

Why the uncertainty when and where they will meet up? Because there is at least two other events which need to occur first, I think:

Kidnapping of Egwene, Rand al'Thor by the Shadow in Tar Valon. Kidnanpping of Queen Elayne within Caemlyn, by the Shadow.

I suspect that Egwene al'Vere as Amyrlin Seat will meet up with Leilwin Shipless, only after both Egwene and Elayne have been safety rescued. Perrin, Galad going saving Egwene; Mat Cauthon and a Motley Crew saving Elayne.

In reply to:

5. Luckers: Only Seanchan Naval Sailors among the Seanchan Empire's Soldiers wear "a sword over the shoulder" as shown by Egwene's Dream in question. There is only one Seanchan female individual who fits this category: Leilwin. Let alone a former Female Seanchan Naval Officer trusted by Juilin, Amathera, Bayle Domon, Aludra. Even Elayne trusted Egeanin in Tanchico, according to Thom.

14. Songsinger: I believe your mixing up two different Dreams, and assuming their are one individual, not two individuals. Squocka's Theory refers to a Dream of Egwene pointing to Egeanin/Leilwin; not a Dream of Egwene's likely referring to Bethamin or Seta--each former sul'dam currently is being trained by Joline & Edesina Sedai.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 20 'In the Night':

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawling accent.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 48 'Following the Craft:

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.

Points to a former sul'dam, like Bethamin or Seta. Foreshadowing in tEotW book suggested that Seta would later become an Aes Sedai--based on Elayne's own words.

15. Squocka: Yes, the female Choedan Kal melted at the end of Winter's Heart book. No, the object Egwene and Leilwin are most likely to climb together is a Giant Sa'angreal based in the Black Hills.

It is likely the 2nd most powerful Giant Sa'angreal, which Lanfear once told Rand about... however, Mierin was not knowledgable where it was located. Only the Choedan Kal was more powerful, yet neither of the Choedan Kal now exists.

Why is this? See these posts below.

Post #9 - Spire in the Black Hills, Dreams of future events with Egwene, Leilwin, and a sul'dam
Post #19 - Same "Spire" indeed.
Post #22 - How tall in height is this Spire/Lance in the Black Hills?
Post #29 - What is approximately the same height of this Spire? The Great Pyramid of Khufu.
Post #39 - A question of whom the Spire is harmless to?

arioch: 2010-10-11

I apologize. PoD is the title of the book but in the series it is used to reference the heights of political activity in the Seanchan Empire. That the same imagery has been used in Egeanin's thoughts to refer to the Path of Daggers as in Egwene's Dreaming (in which she has a dream related with the Seanchan with imagery that is very strikingly similar). I've thought of that imagery as the "Path of Daggers" throughout the series.

Squocka: 2010-10-12

Felixpax, I should have looked harder at what you were saying as i forgot where the Black Hills were thanks for pointing it out to me.

I read the other thread and cant really see that being the mountain but then i'm set on my path now.

Anyway i thought i'd add.

It could be the second most powerful Sa'angreal but i'm not so sure. The most powerful was built with no protection buffer to stop you overdrawing the power and killing yourself which is why you have to use the access key which has the buffer and also makes it more useable since otherwise you would have to be standing next to it to use it. So that would mean that this one should have an access key as well which is another thing to find. It must have been built before the Choedan Kal since they were basically the last things built before the breaking so unless it was a specific purpose power object (ter'angreal) that you could use while next to it for something local then it must have an access key.

I guess that it could be a giant Antenna perhaps as a communications device or repeater station for those power related objects (since they use the power perhaps they dont need a repeater though) and if you think of its size and location. On top of a mountain rising up 500 feet "spire" sounds kind of like a mobile phone tower. Power built antenna which is why it has lasted so long is my guess.

Homeschool: 2010-10-13

Both Leilwin and Tylee are possibilities, though I think considering her demotion from the Blood as comparing to the climb down the mountain is stretching a bit. The events in question were out of her control and forced upon her, ending with her renaming. She is no longer part of the Seanchan empire, which doesn't fit with the line stating "making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs."

I don't believe the facial wavering indicates many people, but rather that she is not close enough to the event to see the person. Consider if you will the encounters with Ba'alzamon in the Eye of the World, where their reflections were unclear, indicating that while Ba'alzamon could find them in the World of Dreams, he didn't yet know who the people actually were. The image grew stronger the more he interacted with them, until he was finally able to "see" them. I suspect this image to be the same.

Tylee seems more likely to me - besides being capable (and due for a promotion, after capturing all those Aiel channelers,) she has also recently been forced to reconsider the rules of binding the Damane, having worked in concert with Aes Sedai and seeing them cooperate rather than dominate.

I doubt either that the mount is the Amyrlin Seat, as it indicated that both ground and summit were far away and lost in clouds. I believe it to be more of a metaphor for the danger she's in, and that the end is not in sight. Seeking the Amyrlin Seat is not really her goal - she's seeking the purification and reuniting of the Tower, the events she remembered in her testing for Acceptance as the Great Purge. She's going to have to use her resources to cleanse the Aes Sedai AND bring the two groups back together AND heal the rifts between Ajahs, and something WILL go wrong.

She will find herself in a position she can't find her way out of, and this Seanchan who is deft at negotiating dangerous situations will offer aid. This will be a situation where Egwene can go neither forward nor back, and simply staying alive will be nearly more than she can do.

I have suspicions that the leashing will continue after the Last Battle, as a criminal sentence for channelers, so that they can provide a valuable contribution to society. If so, it seems reasonable that the Seanchan (with vast experience capturing women who can channel) will provide aid against the Black Ajah by capturing and chaining them, and that the Seanchan will become the policing force of the next age. Perhaps this is the offer made by the woman in Egwene's dream.

Squocka: 2010-10-13

Homeschool
Egeanin did choose to leave she was promoted by Suroth then found out a seeker was looking closely at her and so chose to leave via Mat. She chose all this before the escape to "leave the empire". Her renaming much later is just her accepting her "shame at what she did" from Tuon. Plenty of her thoughts have her thinking how it will all be over and that is it for her future. I dont think it is stetching it very far given what she thought "stood on the slopes of that steep mountain that rose through the clouds to the sublime pinnacle of the Empress" but then i am biased as it is my theory.

The Mountain is the Seanchan Empire not the Amyrlin Seat. The top is the Empress the bottom the peasents and the different ranks of the Blood up to the Empress. She leaves her ranking of the Blood down the mountain which she has down now she only has to help Egwene climb it. Which i surmised as some sort of truce meeting.

Aragon21: 2010-10-25

Page 573 TGH, "From time to time, the Empress plays with lords by linking them to a damane. It makes the lords sweta and entertains the Court of the Nine Moons."

This long before any prophecy about the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

Now the key to the Dream: "but this was a Seanchan who would save her." Does Egwene approach the Seanchan and get leashed again? Does this refer to a physical threat during the Last Battle where she is saved with the help of a Seanchan? When a Dreamer knows she knows, much like when Min knows she knows. And Egwene knew she would be "saved". What is the danger that she is being saved from? Yes, the dream is a metaphor, but I do not see you addressing from what Egwene is being saved.

Without the specific threat your theory is little more than discussion of potential risks. What is the specific endangerment?

Squocka: 2010-11-02

Aragon21
Now a dreamer may know when she knows but Egwene doesn't know she clearly knows the other white tower dream but this one was written quite differently. I believe she was reacting to her revulsion of the seanchan with her toughts after the dream hence why she pushed it away.

I take the struggle to try to break through to speak with the blood without Egeanins help is not possible hence the woman in the dream saying. We can reach the top together.

Nothing about being saved in those words, but everyone to their own.

Bond: 2010-11-21

Towers of Midnight spoiler
It seems clear the Seanchan are not finished with the White Tower. A second attack is coming and Egeanin will help save Egwene in this reprise.

AuroraBrown: 2011-03-30

Homeschool, I really like your take on the leashing being a policing force for the Black Ajah after the battle. I had been racking my brains to think of how the Sanchean and the White Tower could possibly co-exist, and your idea really suits. Amazing. (Sorry to get off topic, just wanted to put that out there).

I wonder how any of the truces or events argued that might happen between Egwene in place of the White Tower and the Seanchan impacts Aviendha's vision of what will happen to the Aiel...

maleshub: 2012-01-11

The White Tower and the Seanchan are a very interesting plot line. I cannot wait to see how it will be resolved; but I've had some thoughts.

Mat's Dragons might convince Fortuona that she doesn't need leashed Damane. I think he'll be more effective with the dragons; and will slaughter thousands of enemies (might be also Fortuona's enemies) as proof.

Egeanin holds the key to shaking the very foundation of the Seanchan Empire. And Fortuona is aware that Sul'dam can learn to be Damane; but to her it is a matter of learning or not. That enlightenment from Fortuona as well as her experience around Aes Sedai might make her compromise on that.

But we see that Fortuona is adamant on destroying the White Tower and leashing Aes Sedai. I think that can be blamed on Graendil. She was manipulating Fortuona's inner circle before her punishment.

And we cannot forget Mat's talk with Jolyin and Tesyl asking them to help him convince Fortouna to stop the slavery of Damane without destroying the Empire.

I would hope that the delegation negotiating peace with the Seanchan consists of Rand, Mat, and Perrin alongside any other members (maybe Egwene will be there). I think with Rand's willingness to bow to Fortuona for the greater good, it will be possible.

And if Fortouna agrees to a temporary alliance, an exchange of prisoners might be worked out. Egwene holds scores of prisoner Damane; and Fortuona has scores of prisoner Aes Sedai.

And we cannot forget Aviendha's vision, peace with the Seanchan is the only way to prevent an unstoppable Raven Empire.

There has to be a way, and Egeanin will have a role to play.

The Greenman: 2012-01-17

I've got to ask, couldn't both foretelling's be true? In a way Rand had already bound the Daughter of the Nine Moons to him via Mats wedding to Tuon, who was the Daughter of the Nine Moons at the time of the wedding? And we have yet to see whether Rand will bow to the Crystal Throne, but in Towers of Midnight, where Aviendha is in the glass columns for the second time and sees her daughter, there is a comment somewhere about how 'she (Fortuona)made him (Rand) bow to the Crystal Throne'. So in a way both could be very true.

bradleyarg: 2012-01-18

Maleshub: Interesting idea... but but what would Tuon and in extension the Empire gain from this trade... the Damane are better than the dragons since they can do much more than just blow things up... now Matt is most likely going to be involved, and it will have to do with his luck also, but I believe that the truce will come from a Trolloc attack or something else of that sort (like the one in Caemlyn).