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Home | Index | Archives | Help
TT, hero of the horn?
by timmah3209: 2004-01-03 | 3.75 out of 10 (4 votes)
Previous Categories: Heroes of the Horn
First off, I don't think Lews Therin is a hero of the horn. Sure, the heroes at Falme recognized him, but why wouldn't they? He is the frickin champion of the creator and the light... the wheel has been spinning for god knows how long.
I'm sure they have met *many* times before, not necessarilly in instances that require use of the Horn, TAR anyone? These people *are* reborn, remember. They don't just come out to play when the Horn calls them, so they could have had other meetings. Would the Dragon be tied to the horn? No. What is the horn for? It is to aid the dragon reborn in the last battle against the Dark One.
Yes, LTT is definitely a "hero," but that doesn't automatically make him a Hero of the Horn.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-11
If I remember correctly, Jordan has stated that LTT is a hero?...But I could be wrong. The Pattern explicitly uses specific souls over in the same roles, in each life. Birgitte always marries Gaidal Cain, and Gaidal Cain is always ugly. Other souls are merely Pattern fodder, placed into the world but never really affect the Pattern in any meaningful way. The soul of the Dragon Reborn is a soul that is used for specific tasks and is also a soul around which the world changes. The Pattern specifically uses that soul to accomplish big tasks, like saving the world. All of these types of souls are Heroes, and the Horn calls forth all of them to fight. They aren't Heroes of the "Horn." They are Heroes of the Pattern, called forth by the Horn. So, while the Heroes are meant to fight at the Last Battle, it doesn't preclude the soul of the Dragon Reborn from being a Hero, simply because he will already be there. Just my thoughts.
Elder Haman: 2004-01-11
You might think of Lews Therin as the leader of the "Heros of the Horn" thus it would be natural for him to summon them to his "Last Battle" even if they haven't been born yet.
Callandor: 2004-01-11
**Yes, LTT is definitely a "hero," but that doesn't automatically make him a Hero of the Horn.**
Ok, before I bring out proof, why wouldn't the Champion of the Light be a Hero of the Horn, when a swordsman and archer and etc. were? Makes no sense.
And proof:
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
LTT (Rand (the Dragon soul)) is a Hero of the Horn.
brigitta: 2004-01-14
is he Reborn only once per Age or is he Reborn in between too, but just as an ordinary person? I mean the soul of LTT or Dragon, or whatever it's called considering the times it's been Reborn
rubbernilly: 2004-01-14
He is obviously (from the quote) born in non-Dragon incarnations.
What you are really asking, brigitta, is if he is treated any differently than the other souls... is he born more or less frequently.
Until we know more about how often regular souls are reborn, we won't know if once per Age is standard, or if it is something special.
Anubis: 2004-01-14
hes always a hero, just not always the dragon. he is only the dragon when the pattern needs a dragon, he is a hero all the other times when only minor adjustments need to be made.
Callandor: 2004-01-14
**hes always a hero, just not always the dragon. he is only the dragon when the pattern needs a dragon, he is a hero all the other times when only minor adjustments need to be made.**
I think of it very similar to that, with one major addition: LTT (Dragon's soul) is the ONLY one who can ever be the "Dragon." No other Hero.
brigitta: 2004-01-15
yes, that was exactly what I meant, rubbernilly. because if he is born more than once per age, the theory that says he has his last incarnations voice in his head, goes bang. I don't have any quotes but it always seemed to me that a soul is born approximately every couple of hundred years or so... I really don't know if there is any backup for tis in the books, I think not.
Oatman: 2004-02-13
Not sure if this holds much relevence, but LTT can channel, and by the sounds of it always has been able to(previous lives etc.). None of the Hero's of the horn are able to channel from what I have read, and surely thier are many channelers over time who have done deeds heroic enough to grant them access to the honour. You could argue that only Rand has proven himself worthy enough for this, but hasn't it also been said that sometimes he fights for the DO? It would be a heroic deed to take him down, and that soul would make it into the horn crowd for it in my opinion. Also, all the heros of the horn have tales told about thier bravery and strength etc, but no story's are told about channelers but for LTT and the Forsaken, and they are told to scare children.
brother of Battles: 2004-07-16
I don't ever remember being said that the dragon ever faught for the Shadow. I remember in the prologue of tEotW, Ishameal said that they have been born again and again always against each other. And Artur Hawkwing said that they have faught side by side and against each other. I could be wrong, but I don't ever remember it being said that the Dragon soul ever went to the shadow. Also, it doesn't make much sence if the "Champion of the light" were to become involved with the shadow.
But anyway, I have to agree and say that the Dragon soul is bound to the pattern and the horn. Although, unless we hear a direct answer saying "Yes, the soul of the dragon, weather in the gise of the dragon or one of meny others, is bound to the wheel and to the horn. To be spun out time after time by the pattern when the pattern needs them." we will never know the truth since it is within the life span of Rand that the horn will be sounded.
Davian93: 2004-07-16
****Although, unless we hear a direct answer saying "Yes, the soul of the dragon, weather in the gise of the dragon or one of meny others, is bound to the wheel and to the horn. To be spun out time after time by the pattern when the pattern needs them." we will never know the truth since it is within the life span of Rand that the horn will be sounded. ****
You mean other than RJ straight stating it as fact. LTT is a hero of the horn. RJ has stated it, there can be no legitimate argument to the contrary.
DragonsShield: 2004-07-19
Couldn't it be possible for Rand to be a hero bound to the wheel and spun out when needed but not bound to the Horn to be called out when it is blown. The Horn is, for all i know, only blown when they are needed by the Dragon Reborn and that would mean that the Dragon would be living and therefor would not be able to be called by the Horn so there is no point for him to be bound to it. Also i believe that i have read somewhere that Artur Hawkwing was the leader of the Heroes of the Horn but i may be wrong.
Paddy: 2005-11-23
I don't think LTT is a hero of the Horn, but like them he is bound to the pattern to be spun out again and again forever, fighting the endless war between Light and Shadow, sometimes as the champion of Light, others the Shadow.
Anubis: 2005-11-25
How could he not be a "Hero of the Horn"? Hes the most important Ta'veren, he is continuously respun, the other Heroes recognize him as an old friend, and hes the Dragon. If that doesnt qualify for Hero status then I dont know what does.
And you say "LTT is definitely a "hero," but that doesn't automatically make him a Hero of the Horn". How then do you define Hero? There is really no such thing as "Heros of the Horn" they arent Heroes belonging to the Horn of Valere, they belong to the Wheel, the Horn is just a tool used to summon them.
Callandor: 2005-11-25
The Dragon soul is a Hero of the Horn. It was quoted by me above:
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
sogoloth: 2006-02-16
LTT/Rand is DEFINITLY a Hero of the Horn. Putting aside for a moment the undisputable quote provided by Callandor, a Hero of the Horn could probably be translated as meaning the Wheel's most important Ta'veren. Although some people may be Ta'veren for short periods of time, it's those whom are Ta'veren for the majority of their lives that have been granted the honor of being Hero's. It's their vital importance to the Wheel and the Pattern that makes them Ta'veren, and only the greatest Ta'veren are Hero's. And which Ta'veren is more important to the continued existance of the Pattern than the Dragon?
As for the Horn only being used at the LB... Matt is the Horn Blower if you recall, so I find it hard to believe that. I believe that the Horn's creators INTENDED it to be used at the LB, but it has been used before the LB, and will probably continue to be used after the LB has come and gone.
Tear it up...
Paddy: 2006-02-16
Sogoloth, that would mean every Hero of the Horn is a ta'veren, but we've seen no evidence (at least that i can find) that Brigitte is ta'veren.
JakOShadows: 2006-02-16
It is possible that it could be used at other times than the last battle, but it would only be in times of great need. And a lot of times, that would be at the end of an age or something like that, so it just always happens to be like this. Of course the LB is not in every age either, so, yes, the dragon soul may not always be connected to every single blowing of the horn. It just probably won't be seen very much in the books, as it is about the dragon reborn.
sogoloth: 2006-02-19
Paddy:
Yes its true that Birgette is not CURRENTLY Ta'veren. This is because she was not re-spun into the pattern, she was torn from TAR into Randland. Prior to this happening, I'm fairly certain that all previous incarnations of Birgette have been Ta'veren (especially considering her connection to Gaidal). The Wheel spins out Ta'veren according to its needs, but since Birgette was forcefully brought into 'reality' those rules don't apply.
Callandor: 2006-02-19
**Sogoloth, that would mean every Hero of the Horn is a ta'veren, but we've seen no evidence (at least that i can find) that Brigitte is ta'veren.**
I'll put it this way:
Jordan has said that the Heroes of the Horn are the Pattern/Wheel's self-correcting mechanisms. He has also said that ta'veren are the Pattern/Wheel's self-correcting mechanisms.
We know Rand is a Hero of the Horn; we know Rand is a ta'veren. We know Lews Therin is a Hero of the Horn (same soul as Rand); we know Lews Therin was a ta'veren. We know Artur Hawkwing is a Hero of the Horn; we know Artur Hawkwing was a ta'veren. We know Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are Heroes of the Horn; we know (from Birgitte's POV) that she (and Cain by that, since they're always linked) were reborn are certain important events in known Ages -- the Age of Legends with Lews Therin, the Founding of the White Tower, the Trolloc Wars, and others.
It's not hard to see that Heroes of the Horn are ta'veren; just that it's completely possible that not all ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn.
Realnow: 2008-07-28
Callandor's last point logically ends this I think. The Heroes are, in my opinion a much more select group than ta'veren.
I mean, Mat and Perrin are ta'veren; but not heroes. But as Callandor said every Hero of the Horn has been ta'veren. So while they are not mutually exclusive obviously there are far less Heroes then there have been ta'veren.
For instance, a ta'veren is born in one age and does some impressive things...but the Heroes are the same group for all time..continously reborn. So ta'veren sprout up new in every age, while the Heroes are set for all time.
Ozymandias: 2008-08-01
Yes, but realnow, the argument has to be made that those Heroes had to become Heroes at some point, and we know for fact (as Hawkwing mentions it) that Heroes are being continually added to the select group... since its doubtful there are ever more than a few ta'veren walking around at once, certainly not more than a few dozen, we have no way of denying that Heroes and ta'veren are mutually inclusive. Even Perrin and Mat may be destined to become Heroes when their time is up... Everyone has to have that first life.
So rather, all you could conclude is that we don't have enough evidence to make a firm conclusion.
Another interesting question to consider is this; is Elan Morin a Hero? Can there be a Hero who is a creature of the Shadow? What is the Wheel's role in arbitrating between power shifts between the Light and Shadow?
I wrote a theory on this, sometime long ago.... maybe I'll go dig it up, though at the rate Tam is putting new stuff up, it'll be another few years before it sees the pixellated glow of a computer screen.
Dragon Tamer: 2008-08-01
It would only make sense that LTT would be a hero called by the horn, he is THE greatest of heroes. However, the debate is still goes on whether or not he is able to channel or not.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-08-02
Ozymandias:
"Yes, but realnow, the argument has to be made that those Heroes had to become Heroes at some point, and we know for fact (as Hawkwing mentions it) that Heroes are being continually added to the select group... since its doubtful there are ever more than a few ta'veren walking around at once, certainly not more than a few dozen, we have no way of denying that Heroes and ta'veren are mutually inclusive. Even Perrin and Mat may be destined to become Heroes when their time is up... Everyone has to have that first life.
So rather, all you could conclude is that we don't have enough evidence to make a firm conclusion.
It's correct of course that Hawkwing said that sometimes a Hero is added to their numbers, but it seems to me that has to be a very rare occurrence. Imagine all the myriad Turnings of the Wheel and yet there are only about 100 Heroes - what's the probability that in any one particular Turning a Hero is added? It must be very, very small.
And we don't really know for sure that all the "Heroes had to become Heroes at some point" - certainly some few Heroes have been added, as Hawkwing notes. However, it seems possible that since the Wheel is endless the Creator may have built into it a set of special souls that have always been Heroes. We know that the Ages repeat, with only small variations in the Pattern of the Ages from Turning to Turning, so it seems to me that if there were a point at which there were far fewer Heroes than there currently are, that would be a big enough difference in the Pattern to make it effectively impossible.
Ozymandias:
"Another interesting question to consider is this; is Elan Morin a Hero? Can there be a Hero who is a creature of the Shadow? What is the Wheel's role in arbitrating between power shifts between the Light and Shadow?"
Since the Heroes and ta'veren are both corrective mechanisms, it seems likely that RJ's comments about ta'veren also apply to Heroes:
-------------
RJ's blog, 5 October 2005, "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"
For kcf, again, we have never met anyone who has the Talent of emulating the effects of a ta'veren over a small area. The Wheel creates ta'veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren't born ta'veren. Can you imagine being around a ta'veren who is teething? It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta'veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta'veren are part of the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta'veren are created. I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta'veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.
-------------
So RJ says that while it's possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be ta'veren, it's unlikely -- I would say that the same is most probably the case for Darkfriends or Forsaken becoming Heroes of the Horn.
Ozymandias: 2008-08-03
Marie, my point wasn't the Heroes aren't continually being added, but that they CAN be added, and are. Its rare enough to elicit comment from a current Hero, but also is commonplace enough that it would be taken in stride by said Hero.
I don't necessarily think Mat/Perrin are Heroes, but its impossible to rule it out.
Realnow: 2008-08-08
Its clear to me that Heroes of the Horn are probably all ta'veren. But i don't see how there is any proof Rand is a Hero of the Horn. Why would he need to be the DR at all if he could be called from the Horn?
Maybe the reason there is ta'veren at all is because the Horn is too limiting a mechanism. The pattern sometimes requires more than a short correcting action; thats where ta'veren come in. They will affect the Pattern for a far greater time and with more lasting effects and I think thats the distinction between them.
So personally, I would say that the Dragon Soul is ta'veren and a Hero. BUT, this time Rand has been spun out of the pattern as a ta'veren, and NOT as a Hero. To be called as a hero I think that the soul must not be incarnated already.
While being a HotH and ta'veren are obviously not mutually exclusive, I think that you can't be called from the horn (as Rand wasn't) once already reborn.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-08-09
Ozymandias:
"Marie, my point wasn't the Heroes aren't continually being added, but that they CAN be added, and are. Its rare enough to elicit comment from a current Hero, but also is commonplace enough that it would be taken in stride by said Hero.
I don't necessarily think Mat/Perrin are Heroes, but its impossible to rule it out."
I understood your point that Heroes can be added. My point, though, was that you said "Heroes are being continually added to the select group". That is true, to some degree, but it certainly cannot be very frequently, unless Heroes are also regularly lost from the group, which seems like it must be fairly rare itself - else over the multitude of turnings of the Wheel, the number of Heroes would have increased considerably.
Realnow:
"I mean, Mat and Perrin are ta'veren; but not heroes. But as Callandor said every Hero of the Horn has been ta'veren. So while they are not mutually exclusive obviously there are far less Heroes then there have been ta'veren."
What Callandor showed was that we know for sure that a few Heroes were also ta'veren. However, we only really know about a very small subset of Heroes who were also ta'veren: Lews Therin and Artur Hawkwing. We don't even know with certainty that Birgitte and Gaidal were ta'veren, though it's probably likely.
We also know that RJ said that the Heroes of the Horn aren't always the types that were heroes in battle or similar circumstances:
-------------
Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting
Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.
-------------
So, I would suggest that while many Heroes of the Horn are pretty likely to be ta'veren at some time during their lives, it is not necessarily the case that all Heroes have to be ta'veren.
terez: 2008-08-14
Ozy, how can Mat and Perrin be Heroes already when they weren't recognized at Falme? Hell, Mat is the one that blew the Horn, yet the Heroes pretty much ignored him altogether, speaking to Rand instead. They treat Rand like an old friend, but not Perrin and Mat - Birgitte met Perrin in Tel'aran'rhiod after Falme, and Mat in the real world, and never showed any indication of knowing either.
Clearly, Mat and Perrin are candidates to be added to the Heroes, but I think it's also clear that they are not Heroes already.
Ozymandias: 2008-08-17
Well firstly, Marie, its possible Heroes can be dropped from the Wheel. But more than that, assuming there hyave to be a ton of Heroes is assuming a lot about how long the Wheel has been turning. If a Hero is added every two or three Ages, hypothetically, your looking at hundreds of Agesn already. Now, how long the Wheel has been turning is pure speculation. But quite frankly, we don't know... all we know is its possible Mat and Perrin becomes new Heroes. Maybe not likely, but possible.
And realnow - the reason the Heroes greet Rand like an old friend is because he IS and old friend, in a way, and Mat and Perrin, as potential new Heroes, aren't yet. But they may become Heroes, and therefore familiar to Hawkwing, in the future.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-08-20
Ozymandias:
"Well firstly, Marie, its possible Heroes can be dropped from the Wheel."
Nope, Heroes are not just dropped from the Wheel. We know that once a Hero is bound to the Wheel, it is forever:
------------------
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings
"Is Gaidal about?" Nynaeve asked. He was usually close by Birgitte, and he made Nynaeve nervous, refusing to acknowledge her existence, scowling when Birgitte spoke to her. It had been something of a shock at first to find Gaidal Cain and Birgitte - long-dead heroes linked in so many stories and legends - in Tel'aran'rhiod. But, as Birgitte herself had said, where better for heroes bound to the Wheel of Time to await rebirth than in a dream? A dream that had existed as long as the Wheel. It was they, Birgitte and Gaidal Cain and Rogosh Eagle-eye and Artur Hawkwing and all the others, that the Horn of Valere would summon back to fight at Tarmon Gai'don.
Birgitte's braid swung as she shook her head. "I have not seen him for some time. I think the Wheel has spun him out again. It always happens so." Expectation and concern both touched her voice.
If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with no knowledge of who he was, yet destined for adventures that would make new legends. The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape the Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wait again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel. New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.
------------------
It is possible, though, that Heroes can be lost to the Wheel if their souls are destroyed somehow. But my point is that has to be pretty rare. When called by the Horn, the Heroes are invulnerable. When spun out as mortals, even balefire does not destroy the soul - only something like Mashadar or a Draghkar that "eats" souls would be able to destroy a Hero's soul. The Heroes are more vulnerable when in Tel'aran'rhiod, though - Birgitte tells us that she is at least as vulnerable as anyone else to the One Power while there.
Ozymandias:
"But more than that, assuming there hyave to be a ton of Heroes is assuming a lot about how long the Wheel has been turning. If a Hero is added every two or three Ages, hypothetically, your looking at hundreds of Agesn already. Now, how long the Wheel has been turning is pure speculation. But quite frankly, we don't know... all we know is its possible Mat and Perrin becomes new Heroes. Maybe not likely, but possible."
No, actually, it's more than just speculation - we can place a lower bound on the number of Turnings. From Birgitte:
------------------
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 52 - Need
"I know what I see and hear. I have watched you, and listened, whenever I could find you. You and the other two women, and the young man with his wolves. According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod. And yet, evil walks the dream as well as the world of flesh; you who fight it attract me. Even knowing I can do almost nothing, I find myself wanting to help you. But I cannot. It violates the precepts, precepts which have held me for so many turns of the Wheel that in my oldest, faintest memories I know I had already lived a hundred times, or a thousand. Speaking to you violates precepts as strong as law."
------------------
From that, we know that the Wheel has turned at least a hundred times plus however far back Birgitte's memories reach - and maybe even far longer than that. And that is also part of my point - if the Wheel has turned a thousand times, for example, and a Hero is added every two or three Ages (which corresponds to about two Heroes added per Turning), then roughly two thousand Heroes would have been added during that time. That's quite a large number, so I suspect that far fewer than two or three added per Turning has to be the norm - the number of Heroes added would have to be more like one every few Turnings or even one every several Turnings of the Wheel.
JakOShadows: 2008-08-22
an interesting thought just occured to me when reading this and i wanted to point it out. i wonder if a certain amount of the heroes get burned out of the pattern and more are added as the wheel turns. it would allow for mat and perrin to be added with in reason, and it certainly could happened in the War of Power. and considering that it happens every 7 ages, it could allow a certain amount of turnover. but then again, birgitte's pov argues against this, so we would need to back this up with another heroes pov. i just wanted to point out a loop hole that we seem to be missing here. it can't be proven with out a doubt so I won't even try.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-08-22
Realnow:
"Its clear to me that Heroes of the Horn are probably all ta'veren. But i don't see how there is any proof Rand is a Hero of the Horn. Why would he need to be the DR at all if he could be called from the Horn?
Maybe the reason there is ta'veren at all is because the Horn is too limiting a mechanism. The pattern sometimes requires more than a short correcting action; thats where ta'veren come in. They will affect the Pattern for a far greater time and with more lasting effects and I think thats the distinction between them.
So personally, I would say that the Dragon Soul is ta'veren and a Hero. BUT, this time Rand has been spun out of the pattern as a ta'veren, and NOT as a Hero. To be called as a hero I think that the soul must not be incarnated already.
While being a HotH and ta'veren are obviously not mutually exclusive, I think that you can't be called from the horn (as Rand wasn't) once already reborn."
One of the things that you appear to be suggesting here is that Heroes aren't Heroes when they are spun out - it seems from these comments that you might be misunderstanding the dual role that the Heroes play in affecting the Pattern.
One role the Heroes play is when they are called by the Horn from Tel'aran'rhiod to fight against the Shadow - in this role, they are not flesh and blood and are invulnerable to the One Power. These are seemingly very short duration events, if we can take what happened at Falme as the typical sort of scenario that occurs when the Horn is blown, but such events probably affect the Pattern in a rather large way.
The second role that Heroes play is when they are spun out to live in the world - they're still considered to be Heroes when they're in this role (though they don't know that they're Heroes while living) and their souls are returned to Tel'aran'rhiod after death. It is in this role that individual Heroes, like Birgitte and Gaidal Cain, act as corrective mechanisms over a longer duration to affect the Pattern.
And yeah, it seems pretty clear that those Heroes that are spun out and living in the world as flesh and blood are not called by the Horn; that is, when the Horn is blown at Tarmon Gai'don, a baby Gaidal Cain isn't going to show up, and I doubt that the soul will leave baby Gaidal's body so that he can appear with all the other Heroes to fight. Here's what RJ says about Gaidal:
-----------------
Thus Spake the Creator - The Heroes and the Horn
Q: Mr. Jordan, since Gaidal Cain has been born only recently in the Wheel of Time universe, how is it that he will grow old enough to fight in the upcoming battle (Tarmon Gai'don)? It will take at least 15 years for him to grow big enough to fight. And what about the other Heroes? Will they also be reborn, or will they remain to be recalled only by the Horn?
RJ: Who says that what Gaidal has been reborn to do is to fight the Last Battle? There is more to do to keep the Pattern on course than the Last Battle.
-----------------
Ozymandias: 2008-08-30
"It is possible, though, that Heroes can be lost to the Wheel if their souls are destroyed somehow. But my point is that has to be pretty rare. When called by the Horn, the Heroes are invulnerable. When spun out as mortals, even balefire does not destroy the soul - only something like Mashadar or a Draghkar that "eats" souls would be able to destroy a Hero's soul. The Heroes are more vulnerable when in Tel'aran'rhiod, though - Birgitte tells us that she is at least as vulnerable as anyone else to the One Power while there."
If a Hero is balefired, it certainly means they've been dropped from the Wheel. Remember, Heroes are threads like any other, that sometimes disappear from the Pattern but always resurface. Or usually do. Whatever. The point being that burning a thread out of the Pattern means that thread will never exist in the future. The very fact that Heroes are reincarnated and have memories of past lives is proof that they function as a continuous thread, which if balefired, will not be able to come back. And even IF this happens extremely rarely, well, we know about a third of the time (at least) we have the knowledge and ability to use balefire, possibly closer to half or more, so over your predicted thousands of turnings of the Wheel, we could be looking at dozens or more Heroes that have been burned out.
Moreover, you can't prove in any way that Mat and Perrin aren't going to be Heroes. Its pure speculation, an interesting idea, but one that rationally cannot be disproven. You've made your case that its highly unlikely, but thats not proof.
Do we know if the Horn has ever been blown before? I suppose it must have been, for them to know what would happen if they did blow it.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-09-04
Ozymandias:
"If a Hero is balefired, it certainly means they've been dropped from the Wheel. Remember, Heroes are threads like any other, that sometimes disappear from the Pattern but always resurface. Or usually do. Whatever. The point being that burning a thread out of the Pattern means that thread will never exist in the future. The very fact that Heroes are reincarnated and have memories of past lives is proof that they function as a continuous thread, which if balefired, will not be able to come back. And even IF this happens extremely rarely, well, we know about a third of the time (at least) we have the knowledge and ability to use balefire, possibly closer to half or more, so over your predicted thousands of turnings of the Wheel, we could be looking at dozens or more Heroes that have been burned out."
Sorry, but I disagree. We know that balefire doesn't totally eliminate a thread; it simply burns it back a little bit, and how much depends on the strength of the balefire. Yes, upon balefiring, the person is dead and their thread is ended. But we also know that souls of normal people who have been balefired are returned to the soul pool and they can be born again in the normal way:
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The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting
Balefire: If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Pattern as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.
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So, if an ordinary soul is not lost as a result of balefire, then in my opinion there is no reason to think that a Hero's soul would not simply be returned to Tel'aran'rhiod after a balefire incident to await a call by the Horn or to be spun out into the world again.
I also disagree that there is any evidence that the threads of Heroes are continuous. In fact, I think there's far more evidence to suggest that their threads are NOT continuous. First, note what RJ says regarding threads and souls:
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Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting
Kurafire: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man? Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things altogether?
RJ: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.
Kurafire: So threads and souls are the same thing?
RJ: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.
Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?
RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?
Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?
RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.
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So when a person dies, the soul is returned to the soul pool and when the soul is spun out again, a new thread is started. And note later in the quote that RJ states that the threads of all living things work in the same way. RJ didn't qualify that statement at all, so it must apply not only to ordinary people and Shadowspawn but also to the Heroes. These statements are pretty clear to me in illustrating that when a Hero dies, his or her thread ceases, the soul is returned to Tel'aran'rhiod, and a new thread is started when the Hero is spun out again.
The fact that Heroes remember their past lives in Tel'aran'rhiod provides no evidence that their threads are continuous. It just illustrates that the Heroes have memories that have been stored from past lives accessible to them while they reside in Tel'aran'rhiod. Furthermore, your statement, "Heroes are threads like any other, that sometimes disappear from the Pattern but always resurface," is effectively the very definition of a discontinuous rather than a continuous thread. It implies a discontinuity in the thread as a result of these statements by RJ:
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Australia Interview - August 1999
Q: Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?
RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there's not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there's nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?
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Note what RJ says in this interview about threads: threads are formed by people passing through time, and each thread has its sole dimension in time. You said that a Hero's thread appears in the Pattern for a while, then the thread "disappears", and then it returns when the Hero is spun out again. Since time is the defining variable of a thread, you have essentially just described a discontinuity in time of the thread of a Hero.
Ozymandias:
"Moreover, you can't prove in any way that Mat and Perrin aren't going to be Heroes. Its pure speculation, an interesting idea, but one that rationally cannot be disproven. You've made your case that its highly unlikely, but thats not proof."
Sheesh. Have I ever said that it's a certainty that Mat and Perrin won't become Heroes? NO. My argument has been based upon probabilities, and I've made the case that the probabilities for new Heroes being added are very low. That's it. You can say that's speculation, sure, but it's just as much speculation to say that Mat and Perrin are going to be added as Heroes, and in my opinion, it's actually greater speculation to say they'll be added because the probabilities are so low.
Catalyst: 2008-09-09
*** You can say that's speculation, sure, but it's just as much speculation to say that Mat and Perrin are going to be added as Heroes, and in my opinion, it's actually greater speculation to say they'll be added because the probabilities are so low. ***
I wonder about that. Is it stated anywhere that Mat and Perrin aren't Heroes already? I don't think that it is necessary to be kept in T'A'R, just most of the Heroes dwell there in their death time. After all Mat has memories (from other men or of past lives?).
And I wonder about something else. If Rand is a Hero of the Horn, and if he dies untimely, will it be as simple as that Mat blows the Horn again and brings the Dragon Reborn back in the Game?
Idle thoughts.
MatOdin: 2009-10-28
Speaking of the Dragon being converted to the shadow, it has happened before. It was said somewhere, it's just nobody ever remembers. And also, htere is no such thing as 'The Last Battle' The wheel of time is a wheel. It has no beginning and no end, so saying that the end of what some call the third age is not necessarily the end of the wheel, but merely a possibility for him breaking into the pattern.