s Cadsuane Black Ajah? A New Spring theory
by Alanna Mosvani: 2004-01-16 | Not yet rated
I haven't found a spot where this has been addressed already, and I haven't seen anyone pulling theories out of New Spring yet...
First of all, I contend that Cadsuane is NOT Black Ajah. But Moiraine seems to be very convinced she is (pg. 331, New Spring), so I am hoping someone can keep things interesting and take the stand that she IS Black.
Some points against her being Black:
1) She doesn't seem to be following the program. Whereas (spoiler!) Merean is killing men who may be able to channel, Cadsuane, from previous books, seems to be dedicated to keeping the men she gentles alive. I think she probably was looking for the Dragon Reborn but believed it would be too dangerous to let him channel; however, she knows he needs to be around for the Last Battle.
2) She hardly avoids notice, which is necessary for the Black Ajah to do. I think she would have been disciplined for that, or possibly expelled (is that possible, to be expeled from the Black Ajah?) E.g. pg. 228, New Spring, it is said Cadsuane "bent Tower law where it suited her, flouted custom, often dragged others with her..."
3) She saddles Merean with Moiraine, pg. 233, and Merean is not happy about it. Wouldn't Merean know or understand if that was something important for the Black Ajah to do?
I can't see Cadsuane's personality working for any organization demanding the level of obedience the Black Ajah does, but Robert Jordan seems to be pushing it just to confuse us.
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Tamyrlin: 2004-01-24
I thought Moiraine only considered Cadsuane as possibly Black Ajah, before she knew about Merean, at the end of the story? I can't see Moiraine not going after Cadsuane, if she still suspected her of being Black Ajah. Does Siuan know that Cadsuane is with Rand? Just a thought. So, I agree with you, I don't think Cadsuane is Black Ajah, but she might be. Verin is suspicious of her allegiance, which should count for something.
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Mairashda: 2004-01-24
cadsuane is not of the black. her own thoughts confirm this (we do get to read her pov in...winters heart? and she even thinks about having been on the verge of rooting out the ba.). she does appear to have knowledge of the blacks secrets and dealings... just remember her comment about the "vileness".
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Deadsy: 2004-01-24
Yes Siuan knows. She told Egwene that she suspects Cadsuane is black ajah but has no proof.
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Davian93: 2004-01-25
A couple of good reasons that Cadsuade is most likely not Black Ajah. First of all her own pov doesnt support it. There is no evidence in any of her thoughts that we see that she could be Black Ajah. Also, one of the main reasons she probably stays away from the Tower is that it is easy to take out an Aes Sedai there. Think of all the ones that were killed there in New Spring. Cadsuane was also there when Rand cleansed saiden. I highly doubt a member of the black ajah would allow that to happen, let alone actively plan for and ensure the success of Rands rather simple original plan of having just him and Nynaeve doing it. Siuan and Verin suspect her simply because neither of them know what Cadsuanes motivations are and they dont really trust anyone.
For the past 20 years, Cadsuane has known the dragon has been reborn and that the Last Battle is coming. She has been desperately preparing for both while trying to stay alive and not be killed by the Black Ajah.
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Alanna Mosvani: 2004-01-25
tamyrlin - moiraine tells Siuan she thinks Cadsuane is Black Ajah, after Merean is already dead. see page 331. I am still interested in finding out why RJ has made Moiraine so convinced Cadsuane is Black. just paranoia on moiraine's part?
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rubbernilly: 2004-01-26
Here are the relevant bits from NS:
Moiraine considers the possibility that Cadsuane is BA several times after she meets up with Cadsuane.
When Moiraine runs into Siuan in Canluum and Siuan relates the BA proof that she has, Moiraine tells Siuan of Moiraine's meeting with Cadsuane:
"She tried to recall every word, every nuance, from the moment Merean first spoke. Siuan listened with a distant look, filing and sorting. "Cadsuane could be Black Ajah," she agreed when Moiraine finished. She barely hesitated over the words. "Maybe she's just trying to get you out of the way until she can dispose of you without rousing suspicion. Or she could be one of Tamra's chosen. Just because we think she hasn't been in Tar Valon for two years doesn't make it so." Sisters did slip in and out of th Tower quietly sometimes, but Moiraine thought that anywhere Cadsuane arrived shook as though struck by an earthquake. "The trouble is, any of them could be either."(240)
Siuan is apparently in agreement with Moiraine about her being BA, but we never get it from Moiraine's mouth here.
Later, when Moiraine runs into Merean in the palace in Chachin, she reveals this in her POV:
"The more she had thought about Cadsuane, the more she had become convinced the woman must be Black Ajah." (309)
So, Moiraine is convinced of this. But she *is* only AS, and prone to be wrong.
Personally, I think that this was among the primary reasons RJ wrote the prequel. He needed to put Moiraine back on everyone's radar, and he needed to flesh out her history with Cadsuane. If Moiraine is to be rescued in the next book (or two), she will inevitably meet up with Cadsuane. Their relationship and interplay will make a whole lot more sense with this backstory filled in than it would have if RJ had tried to explain their history along the way as he wrote b11. For that reason, I say the prequel should always be read at this point in the series; right after CoT and before b11.
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Lan: 2004-01-27
I agree that the actuality of Cadsuane's allegience is in question. However, I believe that she wanted to place Moiraine with Merean more to be a leash on Merean than on Moiraine. We don't know too much about the BA, but I believe that the vast majority of BA sisters joined either before they went to the tower, or were converted once they'd been sisters for some time. I base this mostly on the idea that those who are recently come to something, as in being raised to the shawl, are more zealous about that particular event than before or later.
I also think that Cadsuane is a lot more observant than even we have been led to believe; she hasn't gotten her reputation for nothing.
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gwprod: 2004-01-28
This Cadsuane POV question (RE: Black Ajah) is an interesting one... havent we seen someone before (Suroth) who's POV didnt support her being a darkfriend, though all her non-pov actions (IE: her and Liandrin's common master, in TGH) seem to indicate that she is? I am not that familiar with the Cadsuane POV's, but does she come out and say "I am not black ajah" in inner monologue?
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gwprod: 2004-01-28
One more item... these Cadsuane spying on Merean vs Cadsuane getting Merean to spy on Moiraine ideas are somewhat odd... if I recall correctly, there's no reason to think that if Cadsuane is black ajah, she'd know Merean is, or the fact that Cadsuane wanted Merean to do something with Moiraine necessarily indicates that she is Black Ajah... only the head of the black ajah knows all the others (and none of them know her), though I suppose it's possible that Cadsuane is the head of the black ajah at this point, but retires from being the head of the black ajah before the current period
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Davian93: 2004-01-28
Yes, but why would Cadsuane help cleanse the taint from saiden if she were Black Ajah. The DO surely does not want his counterstroke taken away. By cleansing saiden, Rand placed the loyalty of every male channeler who follows the DO into question. It also gives the Dragon a ready supply of male channelers to help him during the Last Battle. Cadsuade, if she was Black Ajah, would never be able to support such a plan.
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Dorindha: 2004-01-28
Davian - that last point is no proof - we have a comfirmed black sister (from her own POV) - Elza? - who helped at the cleansing
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Jiana: 2004-01-30
I must be psychic, because I came here tonight in search of just such a discussion. :)
First off, thank you r-nilly for the suggestion of the sequence in which the books should be read. I just finished the expanded version, and couldn't quite figure where to place it.
Second, to Lan: Liandrin's pov once stated that she had her heart set on the Black Ajah and had begun channeling before she ever went to the WT. It's my guess that a Black sister discovered her by coincidence: a DF who was also a wilder. It's my guess that a lot of Black sisters are found in this way, though some may convert once they've been raised to the shawl.
Third, to gwprod: Mairashda mentioned a pov from Cadsuane that I recall reading--Cadsuane mentioning that she had once nearly rooted out the Black Ajah. That could account for how she would know about Merean. I believe by Moiraine's description, that Merean and Cadsuane are (or were) of an age, possibly trained together. As for the "inner monologue," it is mentioned in the expaned version that an Oath Rod-sworn sister can THINK a lie, just not SPEAK it. But, alas, for all that rambling... I am still sitting on the fence as to the question of Cadsuane's allegiance. (sighs and resumes waiting for 11)
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nowhere man: 2004-01-31
I think the bit of inner monologue is conclusive proof (at least as much as we'll ever get) that Cadsuane is not Black. Moiraine is probably grasping at straws there, feeling off-balance after being taken down a few pegs in their little encounter. I think Cadsuane honestly works for the good of the Tower and the world, in the long run, and doesn't really care who gets offended or even killed to that end. That sort of behavior doesn't make many friends, and she's certainly a dangerous individual, but I think it's a mistake to call her Black.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-01-31
Dorinda- The fact that Elza assisted in the cleansing does not invalidate Davian's statement. The only reason Elza was there is becuase of the compulsion used on her by Verin that made her beleive that Rand had to make it to Tarmon Gaidon. I think the compulsion negates her as a valid comparison for what a BA would do in that situation.
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Davian93: 2004-02-01
Even if Elza had been there voluntarily, it would have been a lot more suspicious for her not to support Rand's effort. Afterall, she's much further down in both strength and age than Cadsuane. She's a follower and not the leader. If she outright refused, all the other people would wonder why. Cadsuane on the other hand would have just thought to be stubborn. Cadsuane could just say she won't assist because she thinks the plan is either too dangerous or simply won't work.
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phenila: 2004-02-01
I believe that Cadsuane has been looking for the dragon reborn. I think she found out just enough from one of the original of Tamra's hunters to pique her interest. Or even better from a BA. Remember she said that she almost rooted out the BA! BA knew only that he had been reborn not even enough to know his age! I t makes sense that somewhere in her 'rooting out' of the BA, she comes across this vital info. She immediately changes her focus from rooting out the BA to finding dragon reborn. As a Green she has hunted down false dragons for the past twenty years, just like a red! Moiraine even speculates that she might be one of Tamra's hunters. Cadsuane got wind of the big hunt and either before or after she obtained knowledge she needs to impart to male cahnnelers, how to be human!
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Bela: 2004-02-04
Didn't some of the rebel Aes Sedai who found out that Cadsuane was with Rand mention that they thought she was BA. Sorry; don't remember who said it or when.
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minalth: 2004-02-18
If she was black ajah she could easily have betrayed rand+nynaeve+the ashaman and AS that were there, they were all very tired after channeling that much, both to cleanse saidin and fighting off the forsaken, all Cads did was say where people were channeling, i think... she is good enough to shield them all at the end, when rand stops channeling through the choeden cal and the ashaman opened a gateway so he couldnt do much else at the time, she would have shielded the rest and killed the ashaman witht he gateway easily
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A Random Finn: 2004-03-08
Minalth
Cadsuane was not doing nothing with the power when Rand was cleansing Saidin. She was holding a shield above Rand and Nyneave. She was quite tired at the end.
WH (With the Choedan Kal)
"What can you tell me, Min?" Cadsuane kept her feet despite her weariness. Holding that shield through most of the day was enough to tire anyone.
I don't believe that she is BA though. She probably could have let the shield go and let an attack in saying she wasn't strong enough to hold it. That would have stopped the cleansing, and killed the Dragon Reborn.
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brother of Battles: 2004-04-08
Personally, I don't think she is of the BA. First of, wouldn't one of the BA, or better yet, the forsaken know she was. But also, if she was of the black ajah, what would Rand have to learn from her then? He wouldn't learn anything new if she betrayed him, it would just make him colder and harder. And Min states right out that Rand must keep her close because she has something that Rand must learn. So basically, there is no way she is Black Ajah.
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Callandor: 2004-04-08
**Personally, I don't think she is of the BA. First of, wouldn't one of the BA, or better yet, the forsaken know she was...So basically, there is no way she is Black Ajah.**
First off, I don't think Cadsuane is Black Ajah, but not for the reasons you stated. Main reasons:
1. The Black Ajah don't know anyone, except one person, outside their own heart (or cell). The Head of the Black Ajah, Alviarin, might not know of her since many Aes Sedai thought she was dead, and she hasn't been back to the Tower since the Aiel War, before Alviarin became the Head of the Black. So other BA might not know.
2. The Forsaken do not know everything, and pick up BA when they need them; they don't go and memorize them all. So it is quite possible they don't know her.
3. Elza, the Black Ajah Aes Sedai who has sworn fealty to Rand, is going to serve Rand in her own fashion. So he could "learn" something from a Black Sedai.
But again, I do not think Cadsuane is Black.
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Dreamwolf: 2004-10-12
1.Someone from the black Ajah did help Rand cleanse the taint. Pinthel admitted in hermind she was black Ajah, and that Rand needed to live to fight the dark one.
2.I don't think Cadsuane is black Ajah because Min says she is there to help Rand.
3.I think the real question is if Varin is black Ajah. Cadsuane is talking to her about her plans for Rand and when she realizes Cadsuane doesn't mean to harm Rand she “Slips a vile back into her belt pouch.” Why would she do that? To kill Cadsuane? I would say yes to that question. One of the three oaths is to not harm anyone except in the defense of herself, her warder, or another sister. Varin nearly killed a sister for almost no apparent reason and Cadsuane knew it. “Cadsuane was talking more than usual tonight.” Rand
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Callandor: 2004-10-12
**Varin nearly killed a sister for almost no apparent reason and Cadsuane knew it.**
Cadsuane did not know it. She didn't see a thing.
What Verin did does have reasons; you don't get that close to killing someone with out reasons. Simple reason being: she thought ~Cadsuane~ was Black Ajah. After all, Moiraine, our favorite of all Aes Sedai, had this same thought; why not Verin?
Plus, if Verin was Black Ajah, the entire part in her Point of View in TPOD Prologue, makes no sense at all. Verin uses clever thought processes and tricks of the tongue to avoid telling untruths. This is consistent with what one would expect of an AS bound by the First Oath. Any Black Ajah would simply lie or decieve to get answers; Verin doesn't.
Example of this is when Beldeine comes out of the Compulsion-trance. She asks Verin if she fainted. Verin replies, "The heat is very bad. I have felt lightheaded myself once or twice today." Then, in her own mind, she thinks that her own lightheadedness was "from weariness, not heat. Handling that much of saidar took it out of you." If Verin is not bound by the first Oath, she should not have needed to justify that misleading statement to ~herself~ at all.
Another key thing is at the Cleansing, Verin (and her link) has a tumbling fight with Graendal; she thinks of capturing the ~Forsaken~ (not Chosen as any Black Ajah would put; specifically note Elza Penfell's POV at the same instance about the Forsaken, she uses Chosen).
Also with Elza is an interesting thing. Elza was one of the Aes Sedai captured at Dumai's Wells, but she was also one of the Aes Sedai to have a visit from Verin herself, and have ad hoc Compulsion-like suggestions given to her. Evidence of these are quite strong: The Dragon Reborn had to live till the Last Battle. The Aes Sedai given the treatment had to make up their own rationales for accepting the programming done by Verin (and it obviously worked even with a Black Ajah!), but it was still done by Verin. Seems quite evident that Verin's goal is to have Rand live till the Last Battle; hardly anything a regular Black Aes Sedai wants.
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Aiel Finn: 2005-02-11
One thing to think about. If Cadsuane is the enigmatic BA hunter, do-gooder that I think she is, then she would probably have saddled Merean with Moiraine because she knew that Moiraine and Suian are _not_ BA. Also, if she was very close to exposing the BA but failed, then she probably had to disappear. If she did not, she probably would have been killed by the BA. Finally, an AS hunting the BA cannot trust anyone, and one with Cadsuane's power and status can afford to be controling and bend the rules. This allows her to follow her agenda without worrying too much about others. Both Cadsuane and Verin seem to be lone BA hunters, this causes a great deal of mistrust of other sisters.
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Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-03-16
Ok, let me just point out that the third oath is not "never to harm any human except in the defense of her life, her warder's, or that of another sister" but "Never to USE THE ONE POWER AS A WEAPON (emphasis mine) except in the defense of her life, another sister's, or her warder's or that of another sister." Verin could easily have poisoned Cadsuane without being Black.
