1
Tamyrlin: 2004-05-31
I don't know. We know Myrrdraal can link with the Trollocs, but I don't know that we can simply move that concept to Slayer and Darkhounds. Also, I think you are right, wolves would be ineffective against darkhounds, but they are effective against trollocs, myrrdraal, etc.
2
Darren: 2004-05-31
Is this a generally accepted idea? It seems almost obvious that Slayer is creating/turning the wolves into darkhounds, but I do not see him leading any pack of them. Remember that he was killing wolves in tar in the two rivers, yet no darkhounds came to attack the two rivers, despite luc being there, nor did they come to search for fain (only a fade did, although that one may have been taken by fain on his own enterprise; we don't know) despite luc flat out stating he was looking for the "man."
Also remember that Slayer hates Perrin, yet that enormous pack in CoT ignores him.
I think it more likely that either Moridin of Shaidar Haran is at the reins of that pack.
3
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-31
Nice theory, but I wish you'd supplied quotes. So I've got a few questions for you :
**So instead of helping in the last battle, this would indicate that the wolves would be a hindrance, as they would cause an increase in the number of darkhounds in the fight**
Do you have the quote on this...I thought the darkhounds swallowed the souls, and had to return to shayoul ghoul to have the new darkhounds created, and that it took time...but that's only going from memory.
**The prophecies and stories say that the DO will lead the Dark Hunt**
Also, looking for the quote of this. If I remember right, Morraine said that the stories of the dark one riding with the hunt were just that, stories.
**This leads me to believe that Slayer would lead the Dark Hunt**
Has anyone figured out how darkhounds are controlled...I remember that a number of forsaken have had control of them at the same time, and there are...ummm... 9 packs ?
(sorry, 3am in the morning, cant sleep, but too tired to find the quotes)
**If Slayer were in control of the Dark Hounds, and formed some sort of a link with them, Perrin could simply have to kill Slayer why the wolves occupied the Darkhounds to destroy the lot of them**
I presume this part is purely speculation?
4
Jes: 2004-05-31
Although not as effective as Balefire, perhaps, Darkhounds can be killed with traditional weapons. In Illian, Lan killed one that was after Moiraine, and Perrin shot one of the pack chasing them with his bow [Dragon Reborn, Ch. 44 "Hunted, p. 509-510, 514-515].
5
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-31
I think the whole idea that slayer will lead the darkhounds is perfect. We know RJ has a thing for balance and it would be just like him to have that counter perrin and his wolves.
6
Zaela Sedai: 2004-05-31
Here's some quotes
***TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 8 - Whirlpools of Color
"Seven," Elyas murmured in surprise. "Even an Aes Sedai would have to go some to do that. Most tales of Darkhounds are just people frightened by the dark." Frowning at the tracks crossing the smoothed stone, he shook his head, and sadness entered his voice when he said, "They were wolves, once. The souls of wolves, anyway, caught and twisted by the Shadow. That was the core used to make Darkhounds, the Shadowbrothers. I think that's why the wolves have to be at the Last Battle. Or maybe Darkhounds were made because wolves will be there, to fight them. The Pattern makes Sovarra lace look like a piece of string, sometimes. Anyway, it was a long time ago, during the Trolloc Wars as near as I can make out, and the War of the Shadow before that. Wolves have long memories. What a wolf knows is never really forgotten while other wolves remain alive. They avoid talking about Darkhounds, though, and they avoid Darkhounds, too. A hundred wolves could die trying to kill one Shadowbrother. Worse, if they fail, the Darkhound can eat the souls of those that aren't quite dead yet, and in a year or so, there'd be a new pack of Shadowbrothers that didn't remember ever being wolves. I hope they don't remember, anyway."
Perrin reined in, though he itched to keep moving. Shadowbrothers. The wolves' name for Darkhounds had taken on a new grimness. "Can they eat a man's soul, Elyas? Say a man who can talk to wolves?" Elyas shrugged. Only a handful of people could do what they did, as far as either man knew. An answer to that question might come only at the point of death. More importantly right then, if they had been wolves, once, they must be intelligent enough to report what they found. ***
I also found this dream that Perrin had odd, anyone think the guy is Slayer, or is it Rand, or maybe a forsaken?
***TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 43 - Shadowbrothers
Dreams tumbled through his head. Darkhounds chasing him; he never saw them, but he could hear their howling. Fades, and Gray Men. A tall, slender man flashed into them again and again, in richly embroidered coat and boots with gold fringe; most of the time he held what seemed to be a sword, shining like the sun, and laughed triumphantly. Sometimes the man sat on a throne, and kings and queens groveled before him. These felt strange, as if they were not really his dreams at all. ***
7
Anubis: 2004-05-31
no. it is the wounded wolves. the ones that arent quite dead after the battle that can become darkhounds. the ones that die are fine. and there is no need to return to shayol ghoul. at least not the way Elyas tells it.
8
mako0424: 2004-06-01
i would generally have to agree with this theory. it makes sense, perrin has little he can do against any channeler so why shouldnt he be paired to Perrin, i think it is gonna be a classical huge climatic battl;e situation, where each good character is matched with an equally strong evil character.
i also presumed that Slayer was a Darkhoundbrother in a way to. like forsaken and great lord can control darkhounds, but so can slayer, and i think Slayer will lead the Last Hnut against the good guys.
but as someone else stated, darkhounds can be killed short of balefire, lan did it and he isnt channeler, my guess is the wolves and darkhounds will be a little unequal in strength maybe 2:1 in darkhound favor, but the wolves will equal this out in sheer numbers and the wolves will be big help against trollocs and myrdraal.
but im not positive if it will be Perrin matched against Slayer, i think Lan makes a little more sense becoz both dont have channeling abilities, im syure their evenly matched in sword ability relatively, and of course the key factor: they're brothers.
9
charliec: 2004-06-01
I wondered if the hounds in Rhuidean had been specially warded/channeled at because they were coming after Rand, who might escape them to easily otherwise... It's just that if not then they seem much too powerful a foe... And doesn't Perrin manage to fell one with arrows before Moiraine balefires the rest?
10
Dorindha: 2004-06-01
I'm not sure about the Slayer thing - the only evidence is that he killed a wolf in TAR (admittedly a very bad thing) and e acts as a counter to Perrin, neither of which say he has any connection to Darkhounds.
"It has been noted by Perrin that Hundreds of wolves would willingly die if it would take down a Dark Hound, but it has also been said that every wolf who dies at the claws and teeth of a darkhound becomes a darkhound."
Where are you getting the second part of this from? I don't recall seeing it anywhere, although it has been said that the soul of a darkhound is a corrupted wolf soul.
Additionally, the wolves in Rhuidean were unusual, they are hard to kill, but not usually that hard.
11
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-01
I don't see chances of defeating darkhounds by killing Slayer, Tamyrlin's arguments for that are good.
Your point about the ineffectiveness of wolves against darkhounds is something close to mind, but it contradicts what the wolves say that they must be there at the Last Battle BECAUSE of the darkhounds.
Interesting is, that the only known example of killing a darkhound with normal weapon is a wolfbrother - Perrin. The mentioned by the wolves readyness to do everything to destroy a darkhound implies that it is possible (but very very risky) according to the wolves themselves.
My guess is that when destroying a darkhound body with something different from balefire, the soul of the darkhound will create it's new body if there is no wolf (or wolfbrother) around to remind to that soul about the wolfy past and to return it to the wolfy state. Else it would return to a darkhound again. So it is a struggle who will transform whom between wolves and darkhounds.
12
Darren: 2004-06-01
sure perrin fells one with arrows, but does it STAY down? That's the question... Nothing is said about the Darkhounds in Rhuidean being exceptional, so don't go make empirical statements that they are, just because that's what you want to believe.
13
dragonsceptor: 2004-06-01
This Slayer will lead the darkhounds thing does not make any sense. And how exactly would this cause balance? Slayer is one evil dude who enjoys inflicting pain. He kills wolves because they are there...not other reason...I think this theory is reading way too much into the little we know. I agree that Perrin will lead wolves into the last battle...but I think it will be much like the battle of Dumai Wells...not some mythic struggle between wolves, darkhounds, Perrin, and slayer. The fact that darkhounds will certainly be involved in the last battle should be reason enough for the wolves to get involved.
14
Oatman: 2004-06-02
Well to add some more theories to this, I've come to believe that either Luke or Isam was a wolfbrother who was killed by Darkhounds and thus had thier soul corrupted, and than this soul was placed into the body of the other half of Slayer - i wrote a theory but I'm not sure it will be published. A foreshodowing quote was made in an earlier post i think by Zaela Sedai(sorry if i slaughtered the name) when Perrin asks Elyas what would happen if a wolfbrother was killed by darkhounds. I would like to supply quotes but dont have any resources with which to find them.
This is why I believe that it will be Perrin V Slayer, Lan will be to busy protecting Nyn during the LB. Also, Isam was Lans cousin, not brother.
15
Dorindha: 2004-06-02
Zaela - in the dream you quote, iirc, the man is Bel'al, dreaming of taking Callandor, and not warding his dreams so everyone in Tear and vicinity also has them. Thanks for the darkhound quote, I'd forgotton the details.
For the people that argue that Slayer is a corrupted wolfbrother - why? The fact he killed wolves in TAR (where no one should be able to kill wolves) shows him as evil, but I can't see how it does any more than that.
16
charliec: 2004-06-02
**I also found this dream that Perrin had odd, anyone think the guy is Slayer, or is it Rand, or maybe a forsaken? **
Isn't that one of the forsaken? I can't remember quite when it happens, but isn't it when Belal's dreaming of getting Callandor, and everyone near him is echoing the dream?
I think we should stop thinking of Slayer so much as the balance for Perrin... he started off as that in the books, but only in that Perrin needed an enemy for a time and the Trollocs needed a leader.
Slayer is not the opposite of any of the good guys, and there are plenty of people who it would make sense for him to end up dueling it out with- Galad, Lan, and Rand are all close family... without having to assume that he's a wolf/darkhound-brother.
17
Callandor: 2004-06-02
**sure perrin fells one with arrows, but does it STAY down? That's the question... Nothing is said about the Darkhounds in Rhuidean being exceptional, so don't go make empirical statements that they are, just because that's what you want to believe.**
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 44 - Hunted
At three hundred paces he would shoot, he decided. Fool! You'd have a hard time hitting a target standing still at that distance. But if I wait, the way they are moving . . . . Stepping up beside Moiraine, he raised his bow - I just have to imagine that moving shadow is a big dog - drew the goose-feather fletchings to his ear, and loosed. He was sure the Shaft merged with the nearest shadow, but the only result was a snarl. It is not going to work. They're coming too fast! He was already drawing another arrow. Why aren't you doing something, Moiraine? He could see their eyes, shining like silver, their teeth gleaming like burnished steel. Black as the night itself and as big as small ponies, they sped toward him, silent now, seeking the kill. The wind carried a stink near to burned sulphur; the horses whickered fearfully, even Lan's warhorse. Burn you, Aes Sedai, do something! *He loosed again; the frontmost Darkhound faltered and came on. They can die! He shot once more, and the lead Darkhound tumbled, staggered to its feet, then fell, yet even as it did he knew a moment of despair.* One down, and the other nine had covered two thirds of the distance already; they seemed to be running even faster, like shadows flowing across the ground. One more arrow. Time for one more, maybe, and then it's the axe. Burn you, Aes Sedai! He drew again.**
No one remarks upon the Darkhound getting back up. If it did, they would have. So, yes, Perrin did kill one.
18
Anubis: 2004-06-02
i dont know why noone has touched on this. Perrin is worried that the darkhounds could eat a wolfbrothers soul because of him and elyas. Also if you read, perrin was close to soulless, baerlin and her advisor comment on it. I dont know what slayer has to do with wolfbrotherness, he doesnt have any of the wolfbrothers gifts.
19
Nine Moons: 2004-06-04
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but in the BWB it says something like:
"There have been rumors about Darkhounds that can only be killed by balefire."
This suggests that the kind Rand faced down were the uber-breed, as opposed to being run-of-the-mill, so they wouldn't need to take out Slayer to kill most Darkhounds. In fact he probably won't have a link to them to begin with.
20
Callandor: 2004-06-06
BWB: page 80-81
CHAPTER 7: Shadowspawn
It is true that Darkhounds do not give up the chase easily. They do not like rain or thunderstorms, and will not usually venture into them, but if they are already on the trail, the rain often fails to stop them. They have more speed than galloping horses and can maintain it longer than any horse. It is sometimes possible, however, to end the pursuit by placing running water between the prey and the hounds, since they will not cross flowing water. The only other choice is to kill them or be killed, and they have never died easily. Since the Breaking, and the loss of the Age of Legend's technology, only they surest hand with bow or sword has had any change, yet this may no longer be enough.
...
In recent times a new bread of Darkhounds has been reported abroad in the world, one that apparently can be slain only with the One Power. Stories tell of the beasts being cut to pieces with power-wrought weapons, only to have their hacked parts melt and reform into whole, living hounds and renew the attack. Should these tales be true, they are ominous.
21
charliec: 2004-06-07
Hey, isn't the BWB supposed to have been written in the fourth age? wouldn't that mean that this new breed of darkhounds is still not all that common even by the time of Tarmon Gaidon?
22
Brendan Reborn: 2004-06-08
I think it was/is written in the fourth age, but maybe the darkhounds at came TO the last battle, and that's what got them noticed. By the way, isn't RJ making a second edition after the series finishes or something like that? I heard that somewhere....
23
Khyprus: 2004-06-09
That thought about Slayer linking with the Darkhounds is nonsens. Myrrdral can link to Trollocs because of their own powers, like their shadow traveling ability. Slayer isnt a Myrrdral as far as i know so thats impossible. And as someone stated here already the DArkhound that Perrin killed was of the "normal" breed, the pack that attacked Rand in Ruhidean was a new breed that cant be killed with anything except BF.
24
Anubis: 2004-06-10
that would be great. a second edition with answers to such questions as.. "who killed asmodean?" and "what exactly happend to lanfear after she went through the melty gate?"
25
LordMaxx: 2004-06-24
It could be that wolves will be more effective against darkhounds. They will need to be there against the darkhounds because they will end up being the most effective killer of darkhounds. Much like the way Mats medallion hurt the Golam wolves may be able to wound and kill darkhounds. And perrin will need to be there to lead the wolves in battle.
26
Damaged4Life: 2004-07-02
Here's an idea, on Perrin wondering what happens to souls of men who are taken by the shadowbrothers; if they are normal men, nothing happens. If they are like Perrin and Elyas, they become like slayer. This would also fit in with the corrupted shadowbrother talk... And, as wolves hate shadowbrothers, surely shadowbrothers hate wolves. Perrin has some liking of wolves and thus reasonably the Slayer should hate them.
27
Random Man: 2005-11-10
There once was a hand of the dark
Who took his black dogs on a lark.
But they ran into Perrin,
Whose wolves killed Shaidar Haran,
And down tumbled those hounds of the dark.
28
wantfear: 2011-10-29
Very interesting theory. Some of the comments seemed to refine it though. For example, not every wolf killed by a shadowbrother would become one. Their soul needs to be consumed and i would assume that is an ability that can only be used in a non combat situation. So i wouldnt say that wolves fighting darkhounds would be ineffective, it makes a lot of sense.
