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ntervention
by Darren: 2004-04-19 | 3 out of 10 (2 votes)
Previous Categories: All About the Creator
"The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.
"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not help himself. "Where?"
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
NOT HERE.
*
Much has been theorized about "Intervention," on the part of the Creator, and the vast majority of the absolute "The Creator Never Intervenes" -ists take their origins from this section. Certainly, they rely on supplementary material, worst of all the BWB (emergency toilet paper, as far as I am concerned) and other quotes by the uninformed from within the novels.
The belief is that this is the Creator speaking, and that this speech somehow proves that the Creator is unable to take no part in the battle between light and shadow, and therefore will not (and CAN not) take part in the Last Battle.
Of course, these theories are completely baseless.
As many have come to suspect, it was not the Creator speaking here, but rather the Dark One. Of course, the first time reader could have no idea of this. Many thought Ba'alzamon was the Dark One! This was obviously not Ba'alzamon. However, the astute reader, armed with mighty hindsight, is easily able to see that Jordan is using the style and signals here that he always uses when the Dark One speaks in the texts:
Signs it's the Dark One:
1) Rand is at Shayol Ghul, where the Bore "can be felt," and one may "bask in his presence." (According to Lanfear. "He" being Shai'tan.)
2) THE DARK ONE ONLY SPEAKS IN UPPER CASE
3)The words: "It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate." Demandred experiences much the same effect from the voice of Shai'tan, in Lord Of Chaos, "The First Message."
"a voice exploded in his head." "it nearly crushed him against the inside of his own skull;" "only a small part of him could even notice the thing, with that voice filling his brain."
4) The conversation. "It is not here." What is not here? The last battle of course, or rather, Tarmon Gai'don, which likely means "the place of the battle," rather than "Last Battle." (I'm going from "The Compleat Old Tongue" for this translation of the words. They've obviously put a lot more thought into the morphology of the OT than I have. And I have by no means slouched in this regard.) The "here" may refer either to the temporal location of TG, or the physical location. Both may well be true, but we now know for certain that the former definitely applies.
The Dark One, we should remember, wants Tarmon Gai'don to happen. He needs it to go his way there if he wants to be free of his prison forever, and "remake time in his own image." He will thus take no chances with portents, which seem to be enough to make things happen merely by their apparition (RJ's literal "manifest destiny" I have called it elsewhere; I will keep to that phrasing, which I feel is apt.) This leads us to point five....
5) The Staircase. The Dark One wants them out of Shayol Ghul. Again, he wants the Pattern taking no tellings from the Manifestation of the Dragon and the Nae'blis. He wants the battle out of his "lair." and provides the Dragon safe passage out of Shayol Ghul to make sure that this happens.
6) THE CHOSEN.... Now this is a semantic point, but I believe that there is a reason why Stan calls them the chosen. When he says "only the Chosen one" can take part, it is no accident that this is his term for the forsaken. It is for this reason that they are "Chosen." They are fools to believe that he will either want or need them after his release.
Having established that the "non interventionists" have laid their foundations on faulty ground, I will waste no more time "proving" that the Creator is capable of intervention. Of course he is. Herid Fel knew it, and was slain for the knowledge. Admittedly, he intervenes pretty seldom (almost never) but not only CAN he, he already has.
In the Eye of The World, "Dragonmount," Lews Therin kills himself with the Power:
"Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all.
Light, forgive me! Ilyena!!'
The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eve that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist...."
The shining bar, of course, was balefire. LTT tried to kill himself as utterly as he knew how. He tried to undo himself for his self knowledge, burning his thread back from the pattern as far as he could, so that he might somehow go far enough back in time to undo the actions that slew Ilyena Sunhair and all his kin. Would you, in his situation, wishing your own death, choose a different method. Of course not.
However, by using balefire on himself, the Dragon did a curious thing. As we know from the novels, the use of balefire is the only sure method to move a soul out of the reach of the Dark One:
"RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED ME WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice and - could it be frustration?" (LoC, "The First Message")
The soul of Lews Therin was placed by his actions outside of both Time and the Pattern. (This may well be the a part of LTT's request for the Light's forgiveness at his suicide, but this is another digression in a sea of them...) Even the Dark One could not have retrieved it, yet that soul is not only reborn in Rand al'Thor, it may well have been bound to the Horn in the interval. (this latter may not be true... certainly Birgitte recognizes Rand as LTT Reborn, yet she may have known The Dragon from before his madness. Certainly he would have no need to be bound to the horn, since he is to wield the Heroes at the LB, not serve amongst them.)
Regardless, his soul can only have been reborn through the INTERVENTION of the Creator, who CAN step out outside of time.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-06-13
Okay. Where do I begin? I am going to dissect the last argument you made, first. LTT did not balefire himself. As has been reported since early in the last decade (1993), Jordan explained that LTT overdosed on the one power, which is how Aginor died in the Eye of the World. This doesn't really touch on your theory, and I know you are suspect of interviews, but that answer has been one of the most clear, LTT overdosed. Now, concerning your argument that the DO spoke to Rand. First of all, I cannot accept that argument unless you can prove Rand was at Shayol Ghul when he heard that voice. Now, I don't have my books handy, but I recall the staircase was created after Rand destroys the DO's minions at the battle with the Shienarians. That battle did not occur at Shayol Ghul. Unless Rand was at Shayol Ghul, how do you suggest the DO could speak to Rand? In other words, your theory that it was the DO hinges on the ability you have to prove Rand was at Shayol Ghul when he heard the voice. Otherwise, if a "voice" feature is used in the text, and causes similar "shock" to Rand's mind that another godlike creature (the DO) causes to his minions, and this voice feature in the text is used outside of Shayol Ghul, the only other Godlike individual that could contact Rand outside of Shayol Ghul that we are aware of would be the Creator. And, one final note, the staircase led to T'A'R, it did not lead to Shayol Ghul. Rand never went to Shayol Ghul nor was he leaving Shayol Ghul. I wish I had the quote, but as far as I recall, Rand went to Tarwin's Gap, won the battle and then ascended the staircase...no Shayol Ghul.
charliec: 2004-06-13
Bang on Tam, it was the yearly battle at Tarwin's Gap, not Shayol Ghul.
the sky was not like shayol Ghul, the borderland armies were defending their border not attacking the blight, and Rand channelled, which we know is ludicrously dangerous at SG.
As Tam says, your argument that it is the DO speaking rather falls flat here. Also, when the DO speaks to Demandred at SG he is incapacitated by it, with Rand the effect is less severe.
Side point on style- careful with your capitals, if you're quoting someone who only speaks in upper case, then don't capitalise the beginnings of words ;)
On Lews Therin, why would he even need to use balefire? as far as I can make out most people don't side with the claim that the DO can access everyone's soul... sorry GLotD!
Another side point, Lews Therin is definitely bound to the Horn... look again at Falme...
So where are we? Oh yes, the Creator can probably intervene... but your arguments seem rather flawed ;)
Callandor: 2004-06-13
Interesting.
1. As already said, it was at Tarwin's Gap, roughly 200-300 miles from a map drawn Shayol Ghul.
2. Yes, he does. Big deal?
3. Hmm... interesting that the two "beings" from outside the Pattern, might have the same characteristics.
4. Ok....
5. I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at this.
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
Within the void, his mind knew a moment of panic. The charging horsemen could not see him in the dust; their charge would trample right over him. The greater part of him ignored the shaking ground as a petty thing beneath concern. Dull anger driving his feet, he mounted the first steps. It has to be ended!
Darkness surrounded him, the utter blackness of total nothing. The steps were still there, hanging in the black, under his feet and ahead. When he looked back, those behind were gone, faded away to nothing, into the nothingness around him. But the cord was yet there, stretching behind him, the glowing line dwindling and vanishing into the distance. It was not so thick as before, but it still pulsed, pumping strength into him, pumping life, filling him with the Light. He climbed.**
Compare:
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 58 - The Traps of Rhuidean
Darkness surrounded him once the door vanished, blackness stretching in all directions, yet he could see. There was no sensation of heat or cold, even wet as he was; no sensation at all. Only existence. *Plain gray stone steps rose in front of him, each step hanging unsupported, arching out until they dwindled from sight. He had seen these before, or their like; somehow he knew they would take him where he had to go.* He ran up the impossible stairs, and as his boot left each one behind with its damp footprint, it faded away, vanished. Only steps ahead waited, only those taking him where-he had to go. That was as it had been before, too.**
Rand created them. They are a primitive way of Skimming.
6. Chosen ONE. Not Chosen.
** Of course he is. Herid Fel knew it, and was slain for the knowledge. Admittedly, he intervenes pretty seldom (almost never) but not only CAN he, he already has.**
Would sure like to see that information about Fel.
**The shining bar, of course, was balefire. LTT tried to kill himself as utterly as he knew how. He tried to undo himself for his self knowledge, burning his thread back from the pattern as far as he could, so that he might somehow go far enough back in time to undo the actions that slew Ilyena Sunhair and all his kin. Would you, in his situation, wishing your own death, choose a different method. Of course not.**
Interesting concidering balefire comes from the person, not the heavens, and that no seen balefire weave creates an entire mountain from itself, and that if he was trying to balefire himself back futher back Dragonmount would not be there.
Dublin Interview:
**Specific questions: Lews Therin Telamon's suicide was emphatically _not_ balefire, but an overload of the Power.**
Link here:
**this latter may not be true... certainly Birgitte recognizes Rand as LTT Reborn, yet she may have known The Dragon from before his madness. Certainly he would have no need to be bound to the horn, since he is to wield the Heroes at the LB, not serve amongst them.**
LTT is a Hero of the Horn.
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
Brendan Reborn: 2004-06-13
I think having the DO in the head of the dragon reborn isn't too probable, but it would be a sick twist to the plot. regardless, the quote sounds more like the creator convincing someone or himself that he will not help. The DO WANTS to intervene in the world. I think that's another difference between the two. The DO will intervene to break free of his prison, the Creator will let his "creations" fight for him but won't intervene. Furthermore, the "chosen one" I beleive is Rand. (A sidenot: By letting Rand hear the creator speak, if it is indeed the creator, intervening in the pattern?) The creator also say I "will not take a part", implying that he can but chooses not to. In one of RJ's interviews, someone asked if it was the creator speaking in TEOTW, and he replied RAFO, so I assume there will be follow up on that quote, either text to support that it was the creator, or to appose it.
Icarus: 2004-06-14
My best guess is that the choice the Creator makes in not intervening means that the Dark One can't really intervene either. It is interesting to see that the Creator calls Rand the Chosen One, while the DO calls his minions the Chosen (Ones). I am considering this now, maybe I will come back at this with a theory of my own...
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-14
The idea about DO being the voice is not unprobable and would be even more reasonable regarding the situation, but the arguments are not so convincing.
However I see some aspects more, that make me suspicious, Darren has right after all:
1. Exactly before the VOICE: what made Rand? Was it not calling DO with his own name in some kind of challenge. Naming DO is very effective thing in WOT.
2. The VOICE looks really like some response to what Rand have said just before speaking to DO.
3. The result of the VOICE intervention: Rand was guided to Baalzamon's TAR office, where Baalzamon waited for him, and even wanted to face him. Isn't Baalzamon the DO's Chosen One?
4. Why the Creator would speak to Rand at this moment and why this will end with meeting with Baalzamon? DO will have motives as Ishy seems to be not so upleased to meet Rand at that moment, and as Rand is speaking to DO and not to the Creator at that moment.
So possible interpretation: DO says to Rand: not here we will meet, but you have to meet first with my Chosen One".
IMO that version is as possible as Creator speaking to Rand.
Darren: 2004-06-14
"In other words, your theory that it was the DO hinges on the ability you have to prove Rand was at Shayol Ghul when he heard the voice"
There are admittedly flaws in this argument... They were not at Shayol Ghul... they were at the Bore. Since the EoTW was placed where the seals were set, the Eye may well have been closer to the Bore than even Shayol Ghul.
Secondly, no you who are oh-so-informed, it's not at Tarwin's Gap. That's where Rand is AFTER he walks out the staircase. And regardless the Eye, like the Bore, is not bound to a single physical locale. So don't tell me my argument hinges on Shayon Ghul, please. It does not.
Ah... interviews. But RJ has said so many things in interviews. You all need to read some twentieth century critical theorists, like Foucault or even Stanley Fish, and understand the difference between authorial intent and action. I've said my piece about interviews, and YOU Callandor, dismiss the interviews when it suits you and use them to "prove" your points when it suits you. What can I say? I cannot argue with hypocrites. It's a waste of my time.
I don't see how an "overdose of the OP" (which is an internal phenomenon) can manifest in a bolt from the heavens striking him down. If RJ says so, then he's not thinking before he answers. That's balefire.
Khyprus: 2004-06-14
Where does it say that the Eye of the world was where the seals where set? As far as i know the Eye was made after the sealing (check rands visions in rhuidean) and the bore aint everywhere, the bore is a thinness in the pattern, located at SG. And Rand was actualy 2 times near tarwins gap, first up in the mountains from where he killed the trollocs, after that he was down on the field betwen the armies from where he went to Ishy. And LTT cant have balefired himself, it came from the sky. But i have to agree with that interview about LTT taking an "overdose", there are Aes Sedai that have "overdosed" and as far as i know the WT is still standing.
Callandor: 2004-06-14
**There are admittedly flaws in this argument... They were not at Shayol Ghul... they were at the Bore. Since the EoTW was placed where the seals were set, the Eye may well have been closer to the Bore than even Shayol Ghul.**
Excuse me?! Ok, let's totally disregard all evidence from the books and what Robert Jordan says. Well, let's not and change your idea.
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 25 - Mindtrap
The ledge on which she lay projected above a black-mottled red lake of molten rock where flames the size of men danced and died and reappeared. Overhead, the cavern rose roofless through the mountain to a sky where wild clouds raced, striated red and yellow and black, as if on the winds of time themselves. It was not the dark-clouded sky seen outside on Shayol Ghul. None of that earned a second glance, and not just because she had seen it many times. *The Bore into the Great Lord's place of imprisonment was no closer here than anywhere else in the world, but here she could feel it, here she could bathe in the radiant glory of the Great Lord.* The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. Not that she had any desire to pay the price elsewhere either.
...
"No," she breathed. Her eyes could not leave the cour'souvra. "No, not me! NOT ME!" Ignoring her, Shaidar Haran scraped the fluids from the knife onto the cour'souvra. The crystal turned a milky pink, the first setting. With a flick of its wrist, it tossed the mind-trap out over the lake of molten stone for the second. *The gold-and-crystal cage arched through the air and suddenly stopped, floating at the very spot where it seemed the Bore was, the place where the Pattern lay thinnest of all.***
I think we can safely say that at Shayol Ghul, the Bore is more prevalent than at the Eye. Just a little bit.
**Secondly, no you who are oh-so-informed, it's not at Tarwin's Gap. That's where Rand is AFTER he walks out the staircase. And regardless the Eye, like the Bore, is not bound to a single physical locale. So don't tell me my argument hinges on Shayon Ghul, please. It does not.**
Actually, it does. You see, the order of events are:
1. Rand and co enter the Eye.
2. They leave and confront Aginor and Bathamel.
3. Bathamel killed by Green Man.
4. Aginor chases Rand, then over doses on the OP.
5. Rand is wisked away to Tarwin's Gap. It IS the gap, because where else is there that we know of being a huge battle between Shadowspawn and Bordermen? Where else did Bordermen see Rand level the playing field between the Shadow and them? Read the chapter over again.
6. Rand Skims up the steps to confront Ishamael. THIS is where he goes after the steps.
**I don't see how an "overdose of the OP" (which is an internal phenomenon) can manifest in a bolt from the heavens striking him down. If RJ says so, then he's not thinking before he answers. That's balefire.**
Think it through, and see the fault in your logic.
1. How did Lews Therin balefire himself?
2. Why were his actions not undone by this supposed balefire?
3. Why was a mountain created from this balefire?
Answer these three questions. If not, give over and realize that LTT did overdose, whatever you personally believe.
And, btw, I only disregard interviews when they obviously conflict with other interviews or book evidence, neither of which this question does.
Brendan Reborn: 2004-06-14
**There are admittedly flaws in this argument... They were not at Shayol Ghul... they were at the Bore. Since the EoTW was placed where the seals were set, the Eye may well have been closer to the Bore than even Shayol Ghul.**
First of all, the eye of the world was a pool of saidin created by Aes Sedai in the AOL, for use by someone with great need (I.E. the DR) It was not the bore, the seals were not set at the EOTW. One of them was placed there to be guarded by the greenman. If it was where the bore was placed, the how do you explain the absense of the other six seals? Were they carried out by those with great need? The hole known as the bore, was in the big floating sphere in the AOL known as the Sharom. Furthermore, the pattern was thinnest at shayol ghul, and that is why the hundred companions traveled there to seal the bore.
**Secondly, no you who are oh-so-informed, it's not at Tarwin's Gap. That's where Rand is AFTER he walks out the staircase. And regardless the Eye, like the Bore, is not bound to a single physical locale. So don't tell me my argument hinges on Shayon Ghul, please. It does not. **
The staircase used by Rand was skimming. But, being an earlier book, Rand was not adept in using saidin, so it was looked at as a marvel instead of a normal happenstance. He did not know he was skimming. Now, rand knows how to skim, so it is described differently in the book. The wording chosen in the TEOTW was chosen because Rand was new to channeling.
**Ah... interviews. But RJ has said so many things in interviews. You all need to read some twentieth century critical theorists, like Foucault or even Stanley Fish, and understand the difference between authorial intent and action. I've said my piece about interviews, and YOU Callandor, dismiss the interviews when it suits you and use them to "prove" your points when it suits you. What can I say? I cannot argue with hypocrites. It's a waste of my time.**
Actually, (though I agree that those who disaprove of interviews shouldn't use them in justifying their statements, sorry callandor) interviews are very controversial, except when there isn't evidence to suggest otherwise. RJ specifically means that LTT didn't balefire himself out of the pattern. There is nothing to contradict his statement. If you refer to the big white liquified fire, then you are missing the fact that it was sent from the heavens, as specifically stated in the books. Have we seen any other crazy male channelers OD on the one power, not to mention the strongest channeler of all time? And besides, balefiring himself would burn his thread out of the pattern, thus making all the damage he did, like creating dragonmount, would not have happened.
**I don't see how an "overdose of the OP" (which is an internal phenomenon) can manifest in a bolt from the heavens striking him down. If RJ says so, then he's not thinking before he answers. That's balefire. **
TEOTW Prologue: Dragonmount pg xiv
"He drew on the the True Source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn on more of the power than he could handle unaided: his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw more. "
It is clear that he OD'ed on saidin. As for the heavens. It is interesting that RJ decided to word it from the heavens instead of the sky. Also note that he was channeling tainted saidin, and couldn't handle it, meaning he couldn't control it. The bolt was most likely a reaction or a weave of the power created during the moment. It's like saying since holding saidar is an internal manifestation, then the gateways used in traveling must manifest in ones body.
notsoevil1: 2004-06-14
I do not like the idea of someone not LTT being the one who did the deed, it doesn't feel right. Maybe it was a combination of both. He overdosed on the OP and brought balefire upon himself(all that power has to go somewhere). Remember, in the AOL channellers did things not even dreamed of in Randland. Think of this, when someone weaves lighnting it doesn't come from their fingers but from the sky.
charliec: 2004-06-15
**Ah... interviews. But RJ has said so many things in interviews. You all need to read some twentieth century critical theorists, like Foucault or even Stanley Fish, and understand the difference between authorial intent and action. I've said my piece about interviews, and YOU Callandor, dismiss the interviews when it suits you and use them to "prove" your points when it suits you. What can I say? I cannot argue with hypocrites. It's a waste of my time. **
talking with all your customary humility... lol.
Ok if we switch to considering the Bore then your argument doesn't hinge on being at Shayol Ghul, BUT remember that although the Bore has no physical locale, the place where the pattern is thinnest IS at SG. This is why Shayol Ghul is where it is, because this is where the DO has the ability to reach out and twist reality to make his base... not in Caemlyn, not in Shara, not at Tarwin's Gap, but at Shayol Ghul.
If he could talk openly in other places, do you not think he would, instead of calling his servants all the way to Shayol Ghul for no reason at all?
I concede that if Rand had just named him then it might have permitted him to speak... I don't have that book here, so could someone provide a quote?
As for Lews Therin and Balefire... first up- there are no doubt extents to overdosing on the power... Lews Therin was trying to kill himself, and was the most powerful channeler of his age, so no doubt he REALLY over did it... the many Aes Sedai who have overdosed were no doubt not usually in the same boat... 1. they were weaker, 2. they probably didn't intentionally draw so much more than they could handle, and only overdosed in a more discreet way.
We have seen another Aes Sedai overdose big time- remember manetheren? here she was trying to kill herself (and everything else), and sure enough had massive effects...
Secondly, please don't be so arrogant as to insist LT used balefire in his suicide, we simply don't have any evidence to support that. The bar came from above at LT, not from LT, unlike any Balefire we've ever seen. Just because it was very bright and very hot doesn't make it balefire either, there are other tyes of fire, and Lews Therin was unleashing a tremendous quantity of power. We do tend to get hooked on balefire, and see it everywhere, forgetting that it is just one of many destructive power effects.
Anubis: 2004-06-15
alrite, lets break this down.
I WILL TAKE NO PART- does this sound like the dark one to you? what has he been doing this WHOLE TIME? he is taking a part.
ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE- The Dark One calls Rand his ancient enemy the dragon. The only other time he has mentioned him, not the chosen one.
CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE - I have a hard time envisioning the dark one using this language, but its open to interpertation.
IF HE WILL - oh so rand has a choice now? yeah that (SARCASM) really sounds like the Dark One talking to me.
sorry darren, the quote alone says it was not the dark one speaking. caps make no difference, and LTT did NOT balefire himself. Read the freakin prolouge, it is in no way similar to balefire.
Icarus: 2004-06-15
As if overdosing for women isn't different than overdosing for men. Saidar is as different from Saidin as night from day (hey, that's probably a good parallel...). It is only logical that overdosing for men would produce such a largescale effect, since
1. men are generally speaking stronger in the Power than women, and although LTT probably wasn't the most powerful channeler at that time, he is probably still ten times stronger than the "little sisters" of this time.
2. Drawing Saidar is surrendering, Taking Saidin is a battle, losing that battle means being overwhelmed by the immense force, which is probably manifested by something like a blast from the skies of sorts.
: 2004-06-15
" Where does it say that the Eye of the world was where the seals where set? As far as i know the Eye was made after the sealing (check rands visions in rhuidean) and the bore aint everywhere, the bore is a thinness in the pattern, located at SG. "
It doesn't say. I'm just guessing.
As to the rest, I'm sorry Khyprus(sp?) but you're mistaken, the Bore is not a thinness in the Pattern, located at SG... SG is a place where there is a thinness in the Pattern, and the Bore can be sensed:
Lord Of Chaos:
"Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed."
It may seem a subtle difference, but it's an important one.
Charliec...
I make no pretense to humility. I am hardly the only one here guilty of that sin.
"Side point on style- careful with your capitals, if you're quoting someone who only speaks in upper case, then don't capitalise the beginnings of words"
Umm... well, for sure studying German threw a big monkeywrench in my English spelling, but I think all the capitalized words you're seeing above I capitalized after RJ's manner. Take your style criticisms up with him (^_~)
"Excuse me?! Ok, let's totally disregard all evidence from the books and what Robert Jordan says. Well, let's not and change your idea."
If by the "books" you mean the Big White Book... Yes, by all means, let's disregard what it says. It was written by an editor, not RJ. RJ, I believe, enjoys the faults in it, because it adds to the "authenticity," of the texts, but as I've said before and will say again, at the end of the day it's just a woman's supposition. And I find it humorous that someone who sets himself as such a sceptic and hardlined critic accepts everything in that waste of money as gospel. You disagree with the core texts more than you do with the BWB.
"1. Rand and co enter the Eye."
I would say "are found" by the Eye, but that aside, you are being disingenuous when you make this statement. You should say:
1. Rand and co enter the Eye (in the Blight)
2. They leave and confront Aginor and Balthamel...
Well... they leave the immediate vicinity of the Eye, but not the bubble that encompasses the Green Man's domain, the whole of which is mobile.
3.Balthamel killed (relevance?)
4. Aginor chases Rand... but of course at this point both are fighting for the white pulsing cord (insert snicker) which is the Eye, so neither can be said at this point to have truly left it yet, now can they?
(On a side note... everyone has been trying to use the Old Aginor that emerges from the prison as proof that the DO has offered the Forsaken no protection from time. But note how Aginor starts getting younger while he's holding to the Eye. Saidin can't reverse aging, and you can't heal yourself (but somehow he does.) The apparent aging was damage from being too imperfectly bound, not old age. It's still yet another error in the text, but one from which things can be learned, I think.)
"then over doses on the OP." If this is true then why does his damage occur from within, instead of a bolt from the heavens? Oh wait, I know, because you're right, and that's what happens when you draw in too much of the Power. Thanks for helping to make my point.
5. Rand is wisked away to Tarwin's Gap. It IS the gap, because where else is there that we know of being a huge battle
Yep. It's Tarwin's Gap... I've never denied that the Eye whisked Rand to Tarwin's Gap. Need pulled them there.
Oh... and if I didn't make myself clear, I want to say it out. I was mistaken above. It's not Shayol Ghul. Yet at the same time, it is. They Eye-Bubble (forgive the term) is not bound to any physical locale, and so can simultaneously be in the Blight, at Tarwin's Gap, and also Shayol Ghul, where the Seals were set. If you don't like the metaphysics of it, hey, I'm not RJ. Neither are you.
So your point is that the steps are Skimming? Ah, but who created the steps? You say it's Rand?
"NOT HERE.
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
NOT HERE." (Against the Shadow)
Yeah (heavy sarcasm) Rand made the steps... Nice try.
"1. How did Lews Therin balefire himself?
2. Why were his actions not undone by this supposed balefire?
3. Why was a mountain created from this balefire?"
1. He created the largest bolt of balefire he could and directed it at himself. What makes you think you can't direct a flow at yourself?
2. I don't know. There are a whole lot of possibilities.
3. Well, the balefire went deep enough and created a large enough gap in the earth that this sudden and enormous absence triggered a rather freakish seismic event...
And BR, I'm not attempting to say he wasn't drawing too much of the OP... only that he killed himself with balefire before the overdose could.
Anubis:
I WILL TAKE NO PART- does this sound like the dark one to you? what has he been doing this WHOLE TIME? he is taking a part
Actually it does. The Dark One has NEVER taken a direct hand against al'Thor, and there is considerable evidence that he puts a leash on Forsaken like Sammy so that they don't attack Rand directly. But aside from that, the DO means he can take no part in the battle between the two champions, not in the affairs of the world.
And the Chosen one in the statements, I'm saying, is Ishy, not Rand. Please read what I'm saying before accusing me of saying something completely different.
That's enough for now. I'm bored.
charliec: 2004-06-15
**I make no pretense to humility. I am hardly the only one here guilty of that sin. **
LOL! check the dictionary :)
**but I think all the capitalized words you're seeing above I capitalized after RJ's manner.**
It's a minor criticism, but where we read 'CHOSEN', it's inappropriate to quote as 'Chosen', because capitalised like this it carries stronger connotations of the forsaken than it did before.
"2. They leave and confront Aginor and Balthamel...
Well... they leave the immediate vicinity of the Eye, but not the bubble that encompasses the Green Man's domain, the whole of which is mobile.**
Yes, true, and worth remembering... I suspect what was meant though was only leaving the building around the eye. When Rand reaches Tarwins gap though it does not seem that he remains in the Green Man's sphere of influence.
Remember that it is the Green Man's domain- the Eye is not sentient, and does not control or affect events beyond being used.
**"then over doses on the OP." If this is true then why does his damage occur from within, instead of a bolt from the heavens? Oh wait, I know, because you're right, and that's what happens when you draw in too much of the Power. Thanks for helping to make my point.**
As I said before, the difference here may be one of extent, Aginor drew more power than he could hold, and was destroyed, Lews Therin drew MUCH more than he could hold, and was annihilated in a massive event.
Incidentally I agree with you that Rand may not have made the doorway/fog/gateway away from Tarwin's Gap, but I don't think it supports your theory ;)
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-15
Oh, Anubis, look at the context, when THAT WORDS were said: Rand is speaking to DO (IIRC mentioning his true name) challenging DO himself to battle. And DO replies. It's simple, and everuthing in THAT MYSTERIOUS WORDS becomes good explained.
dragonsceptor: 2004-06-15
Well, I've been busy lately and just got around to reading this. I don't have a whole lot to add other than my opinion (the evidence either way has been laid out pretty well). I just don't see what you are saying Darren. It seems ludicrous. How does directing balefire at yourself create a bolt from heaven? It seems that every instance of balefire we have seen in the past shows balefire coming from the person (I won't go so far as to say hands but that is the impression as had). If LTT did balefire himself, wouldn't the balefire stream have had to leave him and then make a U-turn right back at him? This bolt seems to me like an incredible amount of saidin. I think this event is truly unique. I have never read anywhere else that anyone has ever tried to pull in ALL of Saidin. They have pulled too much and burned out yes...but did not try pulling all.
Also, you may remember a thread that went on a while back regarding balefiring Lanfear back 3000 years. I distinctly remember that the consensus was that if enough balefire was used to do this, it destroy the pattern and probably the world. How exactly is this different? After all, if LTT did pull that much Saidin and used it to balefire himself, how far do you think it would have taken the pattern back? Far enough that LTT would not have killed his family? Far enough that the bore would not have been sealed and Saidin tainted? If removing Lanfear who created the bore would destroy the pattern, how wouldn't removing LTT before he sealed the bore destroy the pattern? It can't be explained. That by itself is enough to tell me that LTT did not balefire himself.
By the way, just because the BWB doesn't conform to your view of Randland does not automatically mean it is wrong!
Daekyras: 2004-06-15
Yeah, the creator and the Dark one can't intervene. They can only use people as pawns in a game that has lasted through the ages....wait, bit too much David Eddings there!
Darren, I think there is too much evidence against the minor details of your theory.
One point I will make though is that the language doesn't make much sense to me:
"The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE."
This has to end.
It is not here?
That is not very good english. What is not here? This? Doesn't make any sense.
And being Humble is just another way of lying.
Callandor: 2004-06-15
**So your point is that the steps are Skimming? Ah, but who created the steps? You say it's Rand?
"NOT HERE.
The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.
NOT HERE." (Against the Shadow)
Yeah (heavy sarcasm) Rand made the steps... Nice try.**
Ok... if it wasn't Rand, if it was the "Creator" that did it, or, excuse my laughter, the Dark One that did, how did Rand create IDENTICAL steps in TSR?
**"1. How did Lews Therin balefire himself?
2. Why were his actions not undone by this supposed balefire?
3. Why was a mountain created from this balefire?" **
1. Because it didn't come from his hands, like every other single balefire event does. If he shot balefire from his hands, and hit his foot, you would have reason. It didn't.
2. You really are grasping at air here. There are no possibilities. He is the one balefired, in your supposition, so only his actions would've been undone. And since you said it was a "freakishly large" balefiring, all of his actions would've been undone probably till he killed his family, and we would've had the largest paradox of all time going on. Hmm... we don't... look at that.
3. So how does the "sesmic event" take place, without help from channeling? If there was a hole from the balefire that went down enough to go into a pool of lava, what would've it done? Nothing. Volcanoes are formed under presure and erupt with the realase of it; there would've been no preasure from the not-present volcano to be realease. And this point is getting ridiculous.
**And the Chosen one in the statements, I'm saying, is Ishy, not Rand. Please read what I'm saying before accusing me of saying something completely different.**
Ok.
**As to the rest, I'm sorry Khyprus(sp?) but you're mistaken, the Bore is not a thinness in the Pattern, located at SG... SG is a place where there is a thinness in the Pattern, and the Bore can be sensed:**
Fact: the Bore is a thinness in the Pattern. It is present everwhere. It can only be sensed at Shayol Ghul, since it is most prevolent there.
**If by the "books" you mean the Big White Book... Yes, by all means, let's disregard what it says. It was written by an editor, not RJ. RJ, I believe, enjoys the faults in it, because it adds to the "authenticity," of the texts, but as I've said before and will say again, at the end of the day it's just a woman's supposition. And I find it humorous that someone who sets himself as such a sceptic and hardlined critic accepts everything in that waste of money as gospel. You disagree with the core texts more than you do with the BWB.**
Umm... ok...
1. I quoted the books, yes the real, tried and true, against your extreme cynicism, real books that Robert Jordan has written purely for our enjoyment.
2. Once again, to stop this foolishness, I will quote my priniciples on validity:
A quote is valid, that is, it has to be taken at total face value and held up to be fact, yes FACT, if it is totally uncontradicted.
There are a lot of facts in the BWB that meet that standard, and I disregard with the ones that do. I do not hold them up "in the hearld of true" when there is doubt to their credibility. Please move on.
wattj69: 2004-06-15
ok, I'd have to agree, balefire comes from within. maybe it wouldn't have to u-turn, but it would certainly not come from the sky. the theory in general has some points, but for the most part I think you may be off in how you use the info. at the same time, there is something to be gained from it, so why don't we calm down a little, try to discuss possibilities reasonably? it's ok to defend your theory, but this is getting ridiculous. o, and it's also a point to be considered that if he had murdered his family like a day or two ago....well, the most powerful balefire EVER would certainly clear more than 2 days, so that's just another point showing it couldn't have been balefire, the logistics don't work.
Davian93: 2004-06-16
****1. men are generally speaking stronger in the Power than women, and although LTT probably wasn't the most powerful channeler at that time, he is probably still ten times stronger than the "little sisters" of this time. ****
LTT was, in fact the most powerful channeler of the AoL, matched only by Ishamael. And another thing, IT WASNT BALEFIRE!!! Balefire dont make mountains, it burns the threads of the pattern.
vertigo987: 2004-06-16
So this is my first posting on this site, which I have been reading and enjoying for quite some time now. This theory in particular is forcing a response out of me. First of all, I'm confused as to why posting theories can devolve into personal attacks. Darren, your methods of argument are unnecessarily insulting. Which tends to make your arguments seem weak. We all learned from Egwene and other characters that the best arguments are delivered rationally and without heat.
Anyway, my point of contention with your theories revolves around Lews Therin's death. I'm suprised that no one has really clearly pointed out that balefiring oneself is simply an impossibility. I remember somebody mentioning paradox in terms of Lews Therin's actions not occuring if he balefires himself, such as killing his family and resealing the bore. The heart of the paradox is much simpler than that. If Lews Therin had balefired himself he would have cancelled out the balefiring. He would have moved before the time of the balefire and not have died. It's really seems to me that it is not an arguable point. It is impossible to kill yourself with balefire. Not because you can't aim it at yourself, but because you would resurrect yourself...more accurately you wouldn't produce any balefire.
Darren: 2004-06-16
"There are a lot of facts in the BWB that meet that standard, and I disregard with the ones that do"
Ok... I think I know what you mean to say (~Darren's post has been edited for its pointlessness~)...
Charliec...
I am well aware of what humility means. Unlike you, though, I seem to know what "make no pretense to" means. I'll give you a hint. It looks like "pretend" for a reason. I would have said nothing, but Tamyrlin should not have allowed such a pointless insult to be posted on these boards, (~Darren's post has been edited for its pointlessness~)...
"Chosen," like "Forsaken," like "the Prophet," even, is capitalized in the texts. If you don't like it, again, take it up with RJ... not me.
Anyhow, all, this is just a theory, and I posted it largely because no one seemed to be speaking out against certain commonly held opinions that, to me, feel based on very thin evidence. I come to these boards for neither ego stroking, nor to waste time. I am genuinely interested in the truth of what the texts say, and can (and have, on many occasions) change my opinion when I feel it is diverging from this pursuit.
That said, I feel quite secure in my argument, and no one seems to be attacking the core of it (the voice and the DO,) only focusing on the peripheries (hey, maybe it wasn't balefire... I just think so... am I really grasping at air? Or are you just dismissive of anyone who doesn't agree with you? If so, why do you come here?) or, worse, on "me."
If I wanted a flame war, I would spend more time on the message boards. And I apologize if I have seemed dismissive of others, but those who judge me might check out Callandor's (~Darren's post has been edited for its pointlessness~)... with their continued and thinly veiled insistence that I "go away," and see that I perhaps had reason. (~Darren's post has been edited for its pointlessness~)...
Note from Tamyrlin: Darren, if you would like me to go over your posts with a fine tooth comb to identify every "pretend" insult, I will do so, but in reality I don't have the time. I have warned Callandor and now you have been warned; I will start editing both of your posts in such a fashion as demonstrated. By the way, Callandor's posts are some of the most edited, especially in his response to your posts.
Anubis: 2004-06-16
I WILL TAKE NO PART does NOT refer to just rand. it refers to the whole conflict in general. the next line proves that. and the dark one is taking part, shaidar haran alone proves that however you want to mess with wording.
Anubis: 2004-06-16
bah, actually you could balefire yourself. RJ has said that balefire exists outside of paradox, independant of all events, including the event that created it (ironicly enough). so if i shot my self in the foot with balefire (probably possible but... really really dumb) i would probably just disappear an hour ago and noone would know why.
jason wolfbrother: 2004-06-16
Darren
**If by the "books" you mean the Big White Book... the "authenticity," of the texts, but as I've said before and will say again, at the end of the day it's just a woman's supposition.**
umm no the BWB was written by Robert Jordan and Theresa Patterson. It was all cleared through RJ and met with his approval. So it is not just "a woman's supposition". It is the real deal. I'm sorry you don't like the fact that it disproves your theory. Tough. Oh and as Callandor has repeatedly said LTT overdosed. not self-balefire. He did not undo his actions. He called down a big bolt of fire on top of himself.
EotW Prologue
**"Light, forgive me! Ilyena!" The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs, shrieking and blowing as if to aid the growing mountain ever skyward. Ever skyward.**
charliec: 2004-06-17
welcome to the wonderful world of posting vertigo!
Paradox holds no fear for RJ... it has to be possible (though unlikely) to aim balefire at yourself, despite the paradox.
It's not so far from paradoxes that would occur in normal balefirings... suppose someone taunts you until you fry 'em... but then they won't have been there to taunt you...
What appears to happen is that the balefire asserts itself, and no longer needs a cause... so looking at it after the event it would seem as though your thread abruptly stopped with no apparent reason, adn cause-effect be damned.
Anubis: 2004-06-17
**The belief is that this is the Creator speaking, and that this speech somehow proves that the Creator is unable to take no part in the battle between light and shadow, and therefore will not (and CAN not) take part in the Last Battle.
Of course, these theories are completely baseless. **
that is fairly insulting... baseless? it could damn well be the creator. the official response is RAFO, so there is obviously base to believe either way. I disagree with it being the dark one, and think that the circumstantial evidence around the quotes says no, but nothing here is baseless.
Anubis: 2004-06-18
before you say ANYTHING...
balefire does not blind, it does not turn stone to vapor and it does not create volcanos.
The Leveler: 2004-06-19
But the voice says I WILL NOT. The DO has shown plenty of willingness to intervene, from the weather to the TP, to to the mindtraps. ANd ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE. WHat must be done is the battle. THe DO would be happier to just turn the Dragon to his side.
wattj69: 2004-06-19
wow, alot of people have been posting about the balefire...um... as to it being the dark one as opposed to the creator, well, that's possible, but I have to say, there is really no overriding proof here. claiming that it is definitely the DO because of it being in caps is going too far. most of your points seem to involve a speaking style, which could always be attributed to any godlike being (Creator OR Dark One). some of your other points, and I won't bother to list them all, also fail to give enough evidence for your theory. saying "it is not here" doesn't necessarily involve the last battle, and even if it did, that could be said by the creator as easily as by the dark one. I don't mean to attack your points, 'cause they raise interesting ideas. the shining white bar for instance. it's not balefire, I think we've really proved that, but how oftne does RJ show a use for the one power once and then never bring it up again? maybe some insanely powerful channeler (a forsaken maybe) might overdose a little too strenuously and cause mass destruction. something to consider, even if it is a bit farfetched.
silverwolf: 2004-06-23
First of all, balefire (as mentioned above) does not turn stone to vapor--it simply removes it from existence. In tEotW, the stone was vaporized--turned into a gas due to extreme heat. In other words, LTT did not balefire himself.
Secondly, a balefired soul is still returned to the "soul pool" of normal people, and it is spun out as a normal person. RJ answered a question about this during an interview. And, since LTT was not bound to the DO, his soul was already out of the DO's reach when he died (balefire wouldn't protect his soul from the DO's influence to a significantly greater extent than a normal death; read the response to Tamyrlin's question at www.tor.com under New Spring, Question of the week if you don't believe me.) So, your final argument is also invalid. All the other points I have have already been made, so that's all I have for now.
FunkyPoacher: 2004-07-04
"Having established that the "non interventionists" have laid their foundations on faulty ground, I will waste no more time "proving" that the Creator is capable of intervention. Of course he is. Herid Fel knew it, and was slain for the knowledge."
Pardon me, but I've read this story about 12 times and I can't recall Rand (or anyone else) discovering the secret that Fel took to his grave.
Anubis: 2004-07-08
It just hit me. The voice has to be the creator (or some other divine type being). The voice can NOT be the Dark One and for this simple reason. The Dark One can only be heard at Shayol Ghoul. The people arguing that the voice is the Dark One also argue that Rand traveled to Shayol Ghoul, heard the Dark One speak, and left. Just typing that sounds rediculous but here is the one single unrefutable reason why that could not happen. You can not Travel to Shayol Ghoul. It does not work. Demandred has mentioned it. And also, EVERY Forsaken we have ever seen has Traveled to near SG, and walked the long path to see the Dark One. So, the one place where the Dark One can be heard is the one place where it is impossible to Travel to without dying. As Rand is still alive, this did not happen. This means that the voice was either the Creator, or some other unnamed Divine Being. (and you will probably argue that... even though I believe that RJ has said there are no others and it would make an incredibly lame story anyways...) Your retort?
Anubis: 2004-07-08
Oh god... I just realized that someone is going to argue that maybe the Creator or the Dark One made the stairway... Dont. Dont even. In TSR when Rand is following Asmodean he thinks that he has made a stairway like this before. This is a refrence to TEOTW where RAND makes the stairway. Not the Creator, not the Dark One... RAND.
Callandor: 2004-07-10
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Irritably she placed another domino, and the tower collapsed with a clatter, spilling ivory tiles onto the floor. With a click of her tongue, she turned from the table, folding her arms beneath her breasts. "Where is Demandred? Seventeen days since he went to Shayol Ghul, but he waits until now to inform us of a message, then does not appear." *She had been to the Pit of Doom twice in that time herself, made that nerve-racking walk with the stone fangs brushing her hair.* To find nothing except a strange too-tall Myrddraal that would not speak. The Bore had been there, certainly, but the Great Lord had not answered. She did not remain long either time. She had thought herself beyond fear, at least the sort a Halfman's gaze brought, but twice the Myrddraal's silent eyeless stare had sent her away with quickening steps that only tight self-control kept from becoming a run. *Had channeling there not been a sure way to die, she would have destroyed the Halfman, or Traveled from the Pit itself.* "Where is he?"**
brother of Battles: 2004-07-12
There is no way that LTT balefired himself. Where at, in any book, does it say that you can direct flows at yourself? You can't. That is why you can't heal yourself, make yourself or make yourself float. All other weaves are woven around yourself, not directly at you.
kfsone: 2005-03-31
Please try to remember that Jordan writes "from the shoulder". Our entire insight into the world of WoT is written from the perspective and mindset of the setting we are being shown.
Don't be so quick to swallow the catechsisms that the Randlanders trot out.
Consider this. When being told the story of the wheel of time, we are told that the dark one was sealed at the moment of creation.
Much of the story is deconstruction and respinning of myth and legend from our own time.
Given that we are hearing this creation story from within the world of WoT, it is conceivaly corrupted. The "Wheel of Time" could be a causality loop. And the "moment of creation" could refer to the event that caused the loop and not the creation of the universe.
LTT seems to be quite convinced that Rand is in *his* head, and we assume it is the voice of long-dead LTT. But for my money, Rand is LTT's madness and LTT is Rand's.
That leaves the question of who the "third" is that mentions several times.
Look again at LTT's dialogs in 8 and 9, and what Rand puts down to insanity in the LTT voice. Quite often that occurs when LTT has a significant quantity of dialog, enough for Jordan to interrupt with narrative. And in those instances, the speech at either side of the narrative doesn't quite match. Like it's two different characters.
Now that really *would* drive you crazy, having a past and future voice of your "reincarnation" talking to you, with significantly different perspectives on the current point in the weaving of the pattern...
BrainFireBob: 2006-08-11
There's a more fundamental proof it wasn't balefire. The shaft passed through him and continued into the planet- hence the volcano.
Given he could balefire himself, the flow would have stopped the instant it struck him- seeing as how it would effectively cut itself off.
Anubis: 2006-08-14
**That leaves the question of who the "third" is that mentions several times.**
All evidence is currently pointing at Morridin, unless there is a fourth we don't yet know about.
Fizz: 2006-10-17
First off, there is no doubt that it was not balefire that LTT killed himself with. As has been stated before, doing so would have undone possibly ANYTHING he had EVER done, since he was the most powerful channeler at the time and he drew in FAR MORE saidin than even he could handle, if it had been balefire, it would have been like LTT had never been born, if it didn't rip the pattern apart completely.
Second, regarding the stairs that were created, I believe that the weave came from saidin inside Rand, but he may not have been the one to weave it. It could have been the creator, although I highly doubt that, as I will explain in my next point, but rather I think that it was LTT showing Rand how to make the weave and possibly doing it himself. We have other accounts of Rand creating weaves that he had no idea how to make or even what he was making, and he assumed that the knowledge came from LTT. And I can only think of one of those weaves that he could not remember afterward exactly what it was that he had done. Something relatively simpler such as a skimming stairway he may have been able to get a grasp on, therefore he was able to recreate it later on.
I belive that the voice was the creator speaking to Rand, since Rand is His champion, and we see the DO speaking in much the same way to his champions. The fact that He says that He will take no part is stated just after He says "IT IS NOT HERE", leading me to believe that He is saying that He cannot take part directly in anything until the LB. The simple reason behind it, in my mind, is that perhaps if the Creator were to take part in anything directly, since the pattern strives for balance in all things, that would give the DO a free hand to directly interfere as well, and, well, it's just not the time or the place for that... yet. Which is also why I believe that it was LTT, not the Creator, who showed, or more precicely, used Rand to create the stairway.
willz: 2007-09-17
In regards to the whole Lews Therin/Balefire thing: There are more than one method of producing such a bar of light:
* Electricity - We do see lightning in the use of the one power as Lews channels.
* Intense, intense heat - maybe he thought that an immense flame of pure white would purify him for the sins he committed against his family? We'll never know.
*Light made "manifest" Lews could have wanted to say "Look! I'm a sinner!" or something similar - madness is funny, that way.
And as for Rand and the Crewator: I read the bits several times, and even though the similarities to the DO and the creator exist, they are still different. Some might think the relative distance form the DO at this point made the voice intense, but not as intense as if Rand were directly in Shayol Ghul itself. I think otherwise. I believe that Rand was getting dangerously close to foolhardiness, and the Creator, sensing the stupidity and determination involved, opted to send a little message. The dark one would WANT rand to come to Shayol Ghul and attempt a kill - Rand was his weakest in terms of power as well as the fact that Rand alone against the myrrddraal and/or forsaken there could have easily been turned.
Caracarn: 2007-09-19
Ok I believe all the points that can be made have been made with regards to who was talking. My personal opinion has always been that it was the Creator simply because of the statement "I WILL TAKE NO PART..." to me this sounds more like the Creator because, as has been stated, the DO would love to impose his will upon the world, he just can't. So if the statement were "I CAN TAKE NO PART..." I could see it being the DO but because it seems a choice not to interfere as opposed to an inability to do so I'm going with the Creator.
With regards to LTT's death let's look at the options that have been presented:
Balefire - accounts for short lived beam of bright light doesn't account for Dragonmount
OD - Certainly seems to be LTT's intention considering how much Saidin he was drawing in but also doesn't fully account for Dragonmount.
I don't think LTT balefired himself nor do I think he merely drew on too much of the power and died, we've seen no evidence that doing so would result in the catastrophe witnessed at LTT's demise. My theory is LTT drew on Saidin as heavily as he could and then unleashed it all on himself.
Now before you tear this apart let's think about LTT's mindset. He wants to die, he hates himself for what he did in his madness, and he definitely holds himself responsible. Is it so unlikely that, rather than just burning himself out, he wanted to ensure he was completely and utterly obliterated. Drawing too much of the power can kill you, and consider how much LTT was drawing in it probably would have, but it can also simply burn you out and sever you from the OP. LTT in his mental state may not have been willing to take that chance, though admittedly it would have been next to zero, so he called down the column of light from the heavens.
As for what that light was I think it was lightning. Short lived, connecting earth and sky, very very hot, blindingly bright. Now to explain the resulting destruction. If LTT poured all the Saidin he had in his control into a single bolt of lightning I'm fairly certain it would do much more damage than ordinary lightning. The grand cataclysm was caused by the sheer power of that bolt combined with the natural wild, uncontrolled state of Saidin and the fact LTT was weilding way more than he could hope to control. So while he wanted to simply destroy himself he was unable to control the power he held resulting in the creation of Dragonmount.
Sampson: 2007-09-20
I think it was a good idea that LTT balefired himself. Sounds like an idea that a crazy guy would have, just after he killed his family.
“I am responsible for killing all my family, why oh why did I do it? I know let me use balefire and see if I can remove myself far enough to undo my atrocious act.â€
I can believe that LTT could have thought this. Do I think he used balefire? Maybe! Maybe a paradox of balefire is, if one tries to use balefire on themselves, it doesn’t have the same properties or effects that it has on another target/object. We do not know what the possibilities are available to somebody with LTT power and knowledge. I assume we agree that all weaves of the one power are started from the channeler. But that does not mean they have to originate at where ever the channeler is. LTT could have directed the weave at himself.
Just to point out, somebody said earthquakes and volcanoes are caused by pressure. If a large hole was created instantaneously wouldn’t that cause pressure to fill the void? Just a thought. Also, fire wouldn’t have gotten rid of the rock, soil, and other vegetation. It could have melted it and turned it into another form. But this “molten†substance has to go somewhere and cool of after a period of time.
Now to the main thrust of the theory. I can believe that it was the DO voice that Rand heard. I can also believe that it was the Creators. But I assume it was the DO’s for the simple fact that it most fantasy story lines, the creator does not take any action or communicate with the characters. That takes away from the whole concept of good overcoming evil. The good guys are suppose to have faith and conviction that they are doing good and following the wishes of whatever benevolent force they believe in.
Lets remember that the seals are barley weakening right now. Who is more powerful? The Chosen or the DO? I am voting for the DO. So the DO is barley finding out that he is getting the ability to touch the world again. He does NOT have all his Chosen freed and he does NOT have a clear or whole picture of what the heck is going on. He knows a couple of his boys are in a fight, one has been killed. Rand calls him out. I am sure the DO is not prepared to really deal with him right now. The DO doesn’t know if Rand can do anything with pure sadin, or if he will screw up and maybe seal the prison for good. Remember that the Eye was not used for its intended purpose. So the DO thinks quickly, and gets Rand away from doing anything that can be detrimental.
So I agree with the theory, it just makes more logical sense that the DO hooked Rand up, more to protect himself in ignorance than any intention of helping Rand.
Plus I think RJ sorta changed up after TGH. I think the first 2 books he had a thought and story line, then it evolved afterwards. I think the part of the voice would have been taken out if he had to do it again.
Aiwere: 2007-09-22
Ok I can not sit on the sidelines any longer. Guys...Jordan states in the books on a number of occasions that what ever Balefire touches, ceases to be. In the description of Lews Therin's death he distinctly describes how the rocks boiled...This would not happen with Balefire, discussion over.