1
Tamyrlin: 2004-03-16
You bring up a great point. Taim, legitimately, previous to Rand's proclamation was a legitimate "False Dragon." In other words, every male channeler wasn't "thrown from his horse." So, I agree with you, he was turned or turned on his own, after that moment.
2
Callandor: 2004-03-16
**My question is, would the pattern reject someone who didn't actually believe he was the the Dragon?.**
Believing it may not be enough. If they aren't the Dragon, they can proclaim, but won't become the Dragon. They can think they are, or they can think they are a rabbit; they either are or aren't. Taim wasn't, Rand is; that is why the Pattern did not accept him.
Taim I think is a Darkfriend/Dreadlord trained by Ishy, but that is something else ;).
3
Nae-blis: 2004-03-17
I agree with the original point made, that clearly Taim cannot have been a Darkfriend, or he would not have been 'defeated' by the Aes Sedai, but i still dont see what he can get out of being 'in it for himself'. As the M'Hael he has influence, but very little outside of a tower of madmen.
I can't see where the Taim thread of the story is going,as him turning against Rand would be a bit too predictable - Rand already distrusts him. I suspect he might be killed by Rand at some point though - apart from the Forsaken, no-one else is powerful enough to challenge him.
4
Dorindha: 2004-03-17
Even if Taim knew he wasn't the real dragon, as he said to Rand, the stories would say he had been born on Dragonmount etc if it came to it. The fact he believed he had a chance to be the dragon, and enough people thought he was, would be enough to warrent a throw from his horse.
5
udernation: 2004-03-17
i think you missed the point callandor - the rejecting of a false dragon IS dependent on whether or not he IS a false dragon. Ie. Rand was not rejected, and Joe Blow who wasn't pretending to be a dragon wasn't affected.
Hence, the pattern (smarter than us) would not have been fooled by 'Taim the Chaos-Sower', and if Taim is a DF Now, he was recruited afterwards.
Personally, i think Taim is insane and beleives himself to be the Dragon, and the DF's under him are influencing to make Chaos Rampant
6
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-03-17
Whether Taim was Shadowsworn before Rand's proclamation is irrelevant. The Pattern knocked down all False Dragons at that moment, probably a major hitch in the Shadow's plans. Imagine, you've got a major powerhouse of a False Dragon, an army, likely two or three Forsaken in his entourage making things go right, and then Taim is thrown from his horse?! A severe blow to the Shadow Plan that they'll attribute to dumb luck, but are secretly afraid is the Pattern moving events.
Note also Taim has been channeling 15 years, yet only proclaims himself after the BA leave the Tower and the Forsaken are freed. I think he's definitely been in their camp all along.
7
charliec: 2004-03-17
Jury's out on Taim being an actual DF for me...
I think what matters is that he had actually declared himself to be the Dragon Reborn, as had the others...
I don't think it matters whether he was a hundred percent sure or not, the pattern had still produced a 'dragon' at large, which is what it needed. Logain speaks of being guided towards it a bit, and perhaps wasn't sure of his own claims, but all the same he was a false dragon.
8
Grane: 2004-03-17
I agree that regargless of who Taim really is/isn't or who's employ he is in, he is training male channelers at the Black Tower as dreadlords for the last battle or maybe even another preemptory strike at Rand. Like Torval, Rochaid etc.
9
Aelfinn: 2004-03-18
**The fact he believed he had a chance to be the dragon, and enough people thought he was, would be enough to warrent a throw from his horse. ***
Dorindha, does that mean that since I've never proclaimed myself the Dragon, I'll never be thrown from a horse? :)
Taim was, as somebody put it, a power-hungry nobody. Only now, he's somebody. He's not afraid to lie, and that's why he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn (quickest way to power, DUH!) Taim is not insane, unless you count *probably* being a DF as insane.
10
The Leveler: 2004-03-18
I've said this before: Taim never belived there was a Dragon. He thinks any man who could channel strongly could have taken Callandor. He said that all he had to do was fullfil one Prophecy, and the heavans would open up to herald his birth on Dragonmount. He thinks if he can kill Rand, he can say he was the real Dragon, and he obviously dosen't belive in teh DO, or thinks that anyone can beat him who is fairly strong.
11
charliec: 2004-03-19
I'm not convinced that Taim's a darkfriend... although I'm not sure quite what he is up to. It is still possible that he is actually loyal to Rand, we've not seen anything which proves him outright disloyal...
12
Darren: 2004-03-21
"A false false Dragon" FYI... that would be a Dragon.
Taim as a Dreadlord pretending to be the Dragon only makes him a false Dragon...
13
Davian93: 2004-03-21
****It is still possible that he is actually loyal to Rand, we've not seen anything which proves him outright disloyal... ****
You mean beyond ordering Dashiva, Gedwyn, Rochaid, and Kisman to kill Rand. I would personally consider that Disloyal. We get that from Kisman's POV in WH. Taim is definitely no longer loyal to Rand, if he ever was.
Personally I think he was at one point and then later turned against Rand.
14
ike44: 2004-03-22
I think that Taim was "recruited" to the DO's cause after he was captured. i think that he was not a darkfriend before but that the DO had him broken free and gave him the opportunity to kneel to him or to be gentled or killed. He chose to kneel.
15
Arbryan: 2004-03-22
I think Taim was a DF before he came 'over' to Rand. I think his responsibility is to find and train male dreadlords. It makes sense that one of the male forsaken taught him how to test if a man can channel. How else would he know that weave in a time when males channeling are a rarity at best (then at least, since they are obviously now becoming more common).
Likely he didn't figure that weave out on his own. Other weaves I could buy, but not the test weave. Its only purpose is to find men that can channel.
16
pngtchol: 2004-08-24
So... Why did Taim give Rand one of the Seals??? I havn't seen this discussed anywhere. It seems to me that it's kinda significant.
17
Callandor: 2004-08-24
**Why did Taim give Rand one of the Seals???**
Two main possiblities.
1. Taim is "non-Dark" and his story is true and he simply gave it to Rand.
2. Taim was ordered to give the Seal to Rand, by his superiors. The Dark has since changed its mind since then, due to events in CoT.
While events of CoT seem to shed more favor on the first possiblity, remember, the Shadow can, and has, changed its mind (the Kill Rand order; "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.").
18
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-09-13
I think that perhaps (oh no! devil's advocate! run!) it is significant that we have yet to see any evidence of Taim's DF, Dreadlord, or downright evil status 1st hand. All of it has been in 2nd and 3rd person. Someone saying Taim said this, or Taim did that.
With that, we "know" Else Grinwell gave a message to our girls back in the White Tower.
There are other examples, but what I'm saying is that we don't have any specific real to goodness proof about Taim. In fact, does anyone else realize that after a certian point, we no longer actually "see" Taim. We just hear about things he's done, without him actually being present at all.
Perhaps there's mroe than doesn't meet the eye here (horrible pun intended)
19
Callandor: 2004-09-14
**I think that perhaps (oh no! devil's advocate! run!) it is significant that we have yet to see any evidence of Taim's DF, Dreadlord, or downright evil status 1st hand. All of it has been in 2nd and 3rd person. Someone saying Taim said this, or Taim did that.**
There are things that Taim has done/said that we know to be not good (ordering the strike on Rand is definately not good and reaks of evil, though not conclusive, sadly), that point to him at least not play on the side of good. Things that make it seem he could very well evil.
**In fact, does anyone else realize that after a certian point, we no longer actually "see" Taim. We just hear about things he's done, without him actually being present at all.**
Not really. We see him in WH, after that, we really only hear about 2 or 3 times his name being mentioned.
**Perhaps there's mroe than doesn't meet the eye here**
No perhaps about it ;) Taim is definately up to something, whether it be greedy arrogance on his part, or evil orders, is yet to be seen.
20
minalth: 2004-09-16
Taim could give Rand a seal hoping that it would make rand trust him, and knowing that Rand can do nothing to stop the DO from breaking the seal... but maybe rand can, when he feels the rankness or whatever it was that the supergirls felt on their one before it broke...
21
Anubis: 2004-09-16
except that we do have POVs of taims underlings being commanded by taim to do evil type things. sure taim is in it for himself. so are 12 of the 13 forsaken. (ishys an outlyer) so do all of the BA and all the other darkfriends. thats the whole goal of joining the dark one, personal power. immortality.
22
fistandantilus: 2004-09-26
I don't think any one has made the connection between Osan'gar being in the Black Tower, and Taim's turn to the darkside. I mean, isn't it a little odd that after giving Rand one of the seven seals and training his "weapons" and saving him from the box, Taim decides he wants Rands head? I think that either Osan'gar used compulsion, or was using the same type of trick that Aran'gar used on Egwene.
