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Home | Index | Archives | Help
aim lived in the AOL
by joeedh: 2004-06-26 | 5 out of 10 (8 votes)
Previous Categories: Taim - Then and Now
There are many hints in the books saying the Taim is one of the Forsaken. However, since we now know that Taim is not Demandred (at least the FAQ says so, http://www.arkane-systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ
/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html), this leaves us with the question of, who is Taim?
I believe that Taim is a Dreadlord from the Age of Legends, either kept alive with all the other Forsaken at the Bore, or perhaps he got into a stasis box like the gholam.
To support this:
* Taim has some of the mannerism of the Forsaken (or at least, be feels contempt for "the so-called Aiel."
* Taim knows a lot about the One Power, more then any man born in the Third Age should know.
* Lews Therin is always babbling about killing Taim.
Possible counterarguments:
* Maybe Taim is just imitating his boss Demandred.
* Maybe Taim taught himself all of his knowledge, and perhaps had a little instruction from Demandred himself.
* Lews Therin is insane, you know.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-10
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
We know that shadowspawn can survive in a stasis box, but we don't know if humans can. Then again, we don't know for sure that they can't.
i very seriously doubt Taim is anything but a Third Ager, but the evidence is open to interpretation.
Callandor: 2004-09-10
**I believe that Taim is a Dreadlord from the Age of Legends, either kept alive with all the other Forsaken at the Bore, or perhaps he got into a stasis box like the gholam.**
1. No Dreadlords were sealed in the Bore; just the Forsaken.
2. The Forsaken make no hint at anyone but the Dark One being sealed along with them.
3. Things in a stasis box only get out, if opened. Who opened Taim??
*** Taim has some of the mannerism of the Forsaken (or at least, be feels contempt for "the so-called Aiel."
* Taim knows a lot about the One Power, more then any man born in the Third Age should know.**
Even more logically is that Taim is taught by a Forsaken, rather then being in a similar class of experience to them.
** Lews Therin is always babbling about killing Taim.*
Lews Therin is hardly that great at support of evidence. He also rants at killing, just about any ol' Asha'man around him.
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-15
Two sticking points Callandor :
1. At least one Stasis box has been opened, but presumably more than one.
2. Taim saying 'so called Aiel', is hardly likely a mannerism picked up from forsaken...to this age of people, Aiel are fierce warriors, and deadly killers. Whatever his bosses think, a man (Taim) who uses the power as a weapon would respect todays Aiel much more than yesterdays peace loving Aiel (even if he doesnt respect their lack of ability to use the power).
So the words 'so called Aiel' are out of place coming from Taim.
Callandor: 2004-09-16
**1. At least one Stasis box has been opened, but presumably more than one.**
That only proves my point -- WHO opened them? They didn't pop open themselves.
**So the words 'so called Aiel' are out of place coming from Taim.**
Thank you oh so much for pointing out what is known. Funny, how the only person to use the exact same phrase, in the entire series, is the one Forsaken most likely to have trained Taim, if he is evil -- Ishamael (technically as Moridin).
Taim would have a lot more things wrong with him if he was from the AoL.
1. Language -- Forsaken had time; Taim supposedly has none.
2. Shock value -- hello, entire Age went by.
3. Opened -- once again, SOMEONE had to let him out; who would've, could've, done that, had him in a ownership.
4. Knowledge -- Taim is from Saldaea; Bashere would pick up on something like that quite quickly if he wasn't or didn't act like it.
You're stretching too far to think a stasis box solves everything. Taim being trained by a Forsaken answers a lot more, and is much, much, more likely.
Herids student: 2004-09-17
It is possable that Taim is a dreadlord reborn in the manner that all men are reborn in the wheel aof time. It is also possable that in the thining of the pattern that is allowing old things to come again, Taim has picked up a few things from himself (assuming the first supposition is correct). however it is much more likely that Taim is a very lucky and extremely arrogant man who may or may not have had training from one of the Forsaken.
Khaos: 2004-09-17
There is another way Taim could be from the AOL yet not from a stasis box. That is of course soul recycling. We know for a fact that in the AOL there were more than 13 Forsaken. And we have no evidence either way that says Oran'gar and Asan'gar were the first revived perhaps the Dark One had a slain Forsaken in reserve ready to be recycled and that is Taim.
Tamin: 2004-09-19
The problem with that, Khaos, is that there seems to be a sort of time limit on reincarnation. Can the DO hold someone's soul in between life and death for 3000 years, and then just pop it into a new body?
Callandor: 2004-09-19
**That is of course soul recycling. We know for a fact that in the AOL there were more than 13 Forsaken. And we have no evidence either way that says Oran'gar and Asan'gar were the first revived perhaps the Dark One had a slain Forsaken in reserve ready to be recycled and that is Taim.**
O...k....
So Taim is now a recycled soul that the Dark One kept, but he was recycled before of any other example of the Dark One having the control or ability to transmigrate them, or any reason to (an unnamed Forsaken, without even a single solitary HINT of being in exhistence from any other Forsaken who have all now met the other recycled Forsaken), but it was done in time to have him be directly refered to in TGH, and a vague mention that could be him in TEoTW....
Stasis box sounds more likely then that.
Flinn Sedai: 2004-09-19
**And we have no evidence either way that says Oran'gar and Asan'gar were the first revived perhaps the Dark One had a slain Forsaken in reserve ready to be recycled and that is Taim.**
Yes there is proof that Taim was not a recycled Forsaken At least, not recycled in this Age. Taim first came up as a false dragon right after the Bore was unsealed. Flat out impossible for him to be recycled.
Also, somebody said that only the 13 Forsaken were sealed up in the Bore, i believe Callandor. We do not know that. To the best of our knoledge, only the 13 Forsaken were sealed up. However, think of it like this. You are planning on launching a huge strike against another side in a war. This strike is intended to be big enough to win the whole war for you. You get a lot of soldiers together to cover the mundane factor. To complement them,you put in some of the best channelers of the time. However, only 13?! You would have to be insane to try that. You would very clearly lose. However, if you had brought in say at least 50 channelers (a good sized army), then you have a good chance of taking almost any country on the planet.
So, we do not know that only 13 Forsaken were sealed up in the Bore. Infact, it is incredibly naive and small-minded to assume that only those 13 were. Also, as i stated earlier, Taim came up as a False Dragon almost right after the Bore was unsealed. The reason some think of him as Demandred, is because of similar mannerisms, and looks. However, what if they both just grew up together. That would explain many similarities, and his contempt for the "so-called Aiel."
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-09-20
"That only proves my point -- WHO opened them? They didn't pop open themselves.
"So the words 'so called Aiel' are out of place coming from Taim."
Thank you oh so much for pointing out what is known (nice sarcasm). Funny, how the only person to use the exact same phrase, in the entire series, is the one Forsaken most likely to have trained Taim, if he is evil -- Ishamael (technically as Moridin)."
Hmmm...thank you for the sarcasm and also for avoiding the rest of the paragraph that explains why 'so called aiel' is out of place coming from Taim. If replying to such, why not actually try to debate the idea, which was totally avoided.
And as for who opened a stasis box that may or may not have contained Taim...umm...who cares ? If a box is opened, and Taim is in it, he's out.
Tamin: 2004-09-20
-Flinn Sedai
I love that idea. If no one pops up with any quotes to prove it wrong, I'll believe it.
Callandor: 2004-09-20
**So, we do not know that only 13 Forsaken were sealed up in the Bore. Infact, it is incredibly naive and small-minded to assume that only those 13 were.**
Call me small-minded, naive, and right.
1. Big White Book says only 13.
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Seven Seals
While the exact events of that day can never be known, some of the details have survived. The dragon and his companions arrived at Shayol Ghul to discover an unexpected bonus: *a gathering of the thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken Aes Sedai was taking place at the Pit of Doom deep within the mountain at the same moment, perhaps summoned by the Dark One for a conference.* The Companions struck quickly and mercilessly, sealing the bore safely, without ripping open the Dark One's prison as many opponents had feared. Forty five of the companions were killed in the battle, and apparently the warmen took a much higher percentage of casualties. The strike trapped all the attending Forsaken within the sealing, thus removing with one stroke the Shadow's touch and his leadership in this world. With the seals safely placed, the cuendillar discs were safely hidden.**
Hmm... 13.
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Seven Seals
The survivors of this winnowing process, *the thirteen most powerful of the Chosen, who were caught in the sealing of the Bore,* are known in all cases but one by the Old Tongue names men had given them out of contempt. They are Aginor, Asmodean, Balthamel, Be'lal, Demandred, Graendal, Ishamael, Lanfear, Mesaana, Moghedien, Rahvin, Sammael and Semirhage. The Chosen proudly embraced their new names as symbols of the rebirth in the Shadow, relinquishing the ones with which they had been born. From the War of Power to this day their names have been invoked to frighten children, though the bleakest of the tales told of the Chosen are but pale shadows of the atrocities they actually committed.**
Hmmmm.... 13.
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Seven Seals
*Foremost of the thirteen who formed the high council of the Shadow's forces was Ishamael*, or Betrayer of Hope in the Old Tongue. Also known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark, and Soul of the Shadow, he was assuredly the Dark One's top captain-general despite the fact that he never held a direct field command. Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, he was equaled by none but Lews Therin Telamon himself.**
Uh huh... 13.
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Balthamel
After the sealing of the bore, he was trapped even closer to the surface of the seal than Aginor, and was freed at the same time. Like Aginor, he also suffered from the passage of time, but to a much greater extent. His soul and spirit were still vital, but his once handsome body had rotted to the point that he could not bear to have it seen. Unable to use his own tongue to speak, Balthamel was forced to cover every bit of his flesh and required Aginor to speak for him. *The first of the thirteen to die,* he was killed by the last of the Nym, the Green Man, at the Eye of the World.**
Ah.... 13, again.
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Osan'gar and Aran'gar
*Two new names added to the list of Forsaken are not new members of the thirteen.* Rather, two who were killed have been given new life and new bodies by the Great Lord of the Dark. Their identities before rebirth are unknown, save that both were male. They were pulled from death sleep and placed within bodies stolen from the Borderlands – a man, renamed Osan'gar, and a woman, Aran'gar. Both proved that the Lord of the Grave was an apt name for the Dark One; he could defeat even death, so long as it was not death by balefire.**
Oh, oh... nope, 13.
2. RJ says so.
http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/
Media/RJ_budapest2003/rj_budapest2003_
03.mp3
Budapest interview #3. RJ says there were many more Forsaken then the 13, yes, but they all died because they were not sealed in the Bore, like the other 13.
3. The Forsaken do not mention other Forsaken.
Where is there even a shred of a hint of an idea, that there is another Forsaken? Remember, that in a time where the reborn Forsaken, are known to all the live Forsaken now, and yet, with all the POVs of Forsaken, our knowledge of the Forsaken, and just blind facts, there is not a reference to "that other one" or something along the lines that could refer to Taim being apart of this game.
Not one.
Taim sealed in the Bore, and the Forsaken have NO knowledge of it? They do not think of themselves as 14? Well, I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem too naive or small-minded, to believe what is right in front of you.
4. The books say so.
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Forsaken, the: *Name given to thirteen of the most powerful Aes Sedai ever known*, who went over to the Dark One during the War of the Shadow in return for the promise of immortality. According to both legend and fragmentary records, *they were imprisoned along with the Dark One when his prison was resealed*. Their names are still used to frighten children.**
13, yet again.
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: Prologue - In the Shadow
That thought was only a little less painful. Even so, it meant the Day of the Dark One's return must be close at hand if one of the Forsaken was free. *The Forsaken, thirteen of the most powerful wielders of the One Power in an Age filled with powerful wielders, had been sealed up in Shayol Ghul along with the Dark One,* sealed away from the world of men by the Dragon and the Hundred Companions. And the backblast of that sealing had tainted the male half of the True Source; and all the male Aes Sedai, those cursed wielders of the Power, went mad and broke the world, tore it apart like a pottery bowl smashed on rocks, ending the Age of Legends before they died, rotting while they still lived. A fitting death for Aes Sedai, to his mind. Too good for them. He regretted only that the women had been spared.**
Ah, 13.
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 6 - The Hunt Begins
"The seals are weakening, Perrin. Some are broken, though the world does not know that. Must not know that. The Father of Lies is not free. Yet. But as the seals weaken, more and more, which of the Forsaken may be loosed already? Lanfear? Sammael? Asmodean, or Be'lal, or Ravhin? Ishamael himself, the Betrayer of Hope? *They were thirteen altogether, Perrin, and bound in the sealing, not in the prison that holds the Dark One. Thirteen of the most powerful Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends,* the weakest of them stronger than the ten strongest Aes Sedai living today, the most ignorant with all the knowledge of the Age of Legends. And every man and woman of them gave up the Light and dedicated their souls to the Shadow. What if they are free, and out there waiting for him? I will not let them have him."**
13, twice in a quote....
I cannot put this to a more simple degree. Taim was not sealed in the Bore.
Callandor: 2004-09-21
**Hmmm...thank you for the sarcasm and also for avoiding the rest of the paragraph that explains why 'so called aiel' is out of place coming from Taim. If replying to such, why not actually try to debate the idea, which was totally avoided.**
Uhh, if you notice very carefully, I agree the phrase is out of the ordinary from Taim; it's one of the main reasons I believe Taim to be affiliated with the Dark. Him knowing it by being in a stasis box, is not the only option, and other options are much more likely and cause less complicated problems (who opened him, how did he gain his knowledge of the land, timing, etc.).
**And as for who opened a stasis box that may or may not have contained Taim... umm... who cares ? If a box is opened, and Taim is in it, he's out.**
Who cares?!! I for one!
Who are the only people that we know, know of (just OF) stasis boxes, let alone how to open them?
The Forsaken. Hmmmmmmm...... Seems like something to be known, eh? Stasis boxes require someone to open them, that is a very important key to the entire proposal that Taim survived in a stasis box -- who the heck opened it?! Second important question is when -- if it's early, it has to be Ishamael and then more timings come into play -- if late, then how did Taim get established by TGH, since if it was earlier then that it was Ishamael -- for both, how come no Forsaken makes reference to them in any time frame that is relevant (saying Sammael and Graendal does not count - their too late in the game)?
More problems then solutions.
Flinn Sedai: 2004-09-21
Callandor-
The Big White Book does have some information that is incorrect, to intentionally mislead us. You found quotes essentially based on information that we could have gathered up until now. We only have quotes from people from this time. Give me one quote from somebody who lived in the AoL, and i will give up this argument. Until then, you havent porven anything.
Callandor: 2004-09-21
** Callandor-
The Big White Book does have some information that is incorrect, to intentionally mislead us.**
Oh, man is that a shocker. Too bad it is perfectly in line with the books and RJ.
Yes, everyone, the BWB has intentional errors!
However, it has a multitude of facts that have to be called facts, unless they are conflicted by evidence elsewhere.
Everywhere I see, I see mentioning of 13 Forsaken, and only those 13 Forsaken, sealed along with the Dark One at the Strike of Shayol Ghul.
**Give me one quote from somebody who lived in the AoL, and I will give up this argument. Until then, you havent porven anything.**
Ok, RJ and the BWB. Oh, wait, those aren't conclusive are they? Well, they are.
Callandor: 2004-09-21
**Callandor-
**Give me one quote from somebody who lived in the AoL, and i will give up this argument. Until then, you havent porven anything.**
You need the a Forsaken quote to make it solid? I gave you like 15 quotes that are all the same fact, plus author verification.
But, no, I'll be nice, since you doubted me.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall
"I doubt he is arrogant enough for that," Lanfear replied smoothly. "He can see where it took Ishamael. And that is the point. A point Graendal raised. *Once we were thirteen*, immortal. Now four are dead, and one has betrayed us. We four are all who meet here today, and enough."**
Good enough?
amazinglarry: 2004-09-22
Callandor,
While I think there is no concrete, induisputable evidence in the books to support the idea that Taim came from the AOL, I think you are blowing the idea off too quickly. All the quotes you posted show that the Forsaken believe that they were the only 13 sealed in the bore. It is possible that Taim was also sealed but they don't know he was there. Yeah, this is unlikely, I know, but still a remote possibility. We don't know much about what the Forsaken experienced while sealed in the bore - i.e. were they aware of each other or did each only learn of the others' imprisonment when they were released? I don't think we have any way of knowing that. And the whole theme of characters thinking they know something for sure when in fact they're wrong is classic RJ.
I think the stasis box idea is better than the "14th Forsaken in the bore" theory, though. Just because we have no idea who opened it doesn't mean it didn't happen. The only "evil" character who makes a reasonable suspect is Ishamael, and even he has timing problems with Taim's actions early in the books. There is no reason it has to be one of the Forsaken anyway...anyone could have dug up a long lost stasis box and opened it. There is no reason it had to be planned in advance to get the box and open it. Taim could then have gone to Shayol Ghul to get protection from the taint, and the DO hasn't told any of the Forsaken about him.
While the whole idea that Taim is from the AOL may seem far fetched, I really don't think the "trained by Ishamael" argument explains all of Taim's actions - especially the so-called Aiel quote, and also the possibility that he has taint protection. The idea that he just picked up the phrase from Ishamael doesn't make a whole lot of sense...and if RJ put that in the books for the sole purpose of telling us that Taim was trained by Ishy, I just think that's bad writing.
amazinglarry
fistandantilus: 2004-09-23
Larry, I believe, though I'm not sure which book, one of the forsaken mentioned something about how getting out of the Bore was like waking up from a long sleep. I think it was Lanfear. I'm sorry I don't have any quotes, but I intend on rereading the series and will post it when(if) I find it.
lurk: 2004-09-27
Oh this is a lovely discussion. ;)
I don't know if it was mentioned before but ishamael is seen as the bad genius working in the third age and creating chaos. He is believed to be the one that sent the descendants of Hawkwing across the aryth ocean probably because he had to strong an empire (wouldn't do for the dark one to break free and find an perfectly united world against him) I think it is very feasible that Ishamael found Taim (third ager Taim that is)and trained him to become a dreadlord or a false dragon. Taim probably knew the Aiel only from stories of the aiel war. If your trainer (who seems omniscent) tells you what the aiel were like it is logical to feel contempt.
Khaos: 2005-02-15
Sorry to drag up old threads but I have been out of the loop for a few months and wish to riposte.
I put forward the idea that Taim may be a recyclyed Forsaken/Dreadlord who has been dead since the AOL, which would explain some of the discepancies about him his knowledge of the old tongue and channelling, the 'so called Aiel' comment.
It was rebuffed mainly for two reasons above.
1) that there is a limit to how long the DO can hold onto a soul. If you have a quote on that I'd like to see it as I don't remember it being mentioned. We know there is a time factor involved when the DO can choose to take hold of a soul but not in how long he can hold onto it for.
2)That Taim had been around for too long in the books before we are even given a hint of soul recycling.
However it is my belief that the said Forsaken was placed in Taim's body until after he had been freed from The Aes Sedai. So Taim as the false dragon was the real Taim, Taim who appears in Andor is the Dreadlord who now inhabits the body. This would explain a few other curios in the book. Bashere being unsure if it was really him (new body language throwing him).
mazrimashaman: 2005-04-08
ok my thought has always been, we know that one of the forsaken, i think it was demandred, is in the black tower, but it never once says he is actualy there, is it possible that he is using compulsion, or something like it. this would solve for many thing.
Callandor: 2005-04-08
**ok my thought has always been, we know that one of the forsaken, i think it was demandred, is in the black tower, but it never once says he is actualy there, is it possible that he is using compulsion, or something like it. this would solve for many thing.**
Osan'gar (Aginor) was posing as Dashiva until being killed in WH. He is the only known Forsaken that was in the Black Tower. However, Demandred seems to be "babysitting" somewhat of the Black Tower -- he most likely just has a passing interest in it.
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-09
What I'm wondering is why you are convinced a stasis box has to be opened by a someone. Does it say somewhere that a stasis box's exterior cannot decay or be punctured?
Callandor: 2005-04-10
** What I'm wondering is why you are convinced a stasis box has to be opened by a someone. Does it say somewhere that a stasis box's exterior cannot decay or be punctured?**
How would they survive the Breaking if they could be harmed in the severity that causes them to shut down (if not be destroyed outright) enough to let what's outside be effected by time?
Stasis boxes that we have seen have all had to be opened. Not one has, to our knowlege, burst open before a person was trying to open it.