aim - Psuedo-Darkfriend
by Ozymandias: 2005-02-19 | 6.53 out of 10 (17 votes)
Im gonna go against the grain here and state that Taim is NOT a darkfriend, neither in the form of actually being Demandred (which RJ seems to have denied, though some see that as open to interpretation) or in being his or any other of the Forsaken's "apprentice" (which is more or less what it amounts to). I think Taim is just a power hungry man who living in his past. He comes to Rand saying "Submit? I had thought more of a compact between us" (LoC, 95). This shows that Taim still sees himself as a leader, and a man who has enough power and followers to be able to negotiate with the ruler of a quarter of the known world. Obviously, living in the past more than a little. He later shows horror at the possiblity of Rand breaking the seal he brings from Saldaea, which is somewhat definite proof of his not being a darkfriend.
Taim is just a guy who once had a lot of power, and who is ambitious enough to not only want, but get, all that power back. He's not a darkfriend in the usual sense (though his actions benefit the Shadow, so I guess that is technically being 'friendly' to the Shadow), just ambitious and greedy. Once he realizes the position Rand has put him in, and how little Rand seems to care about what he does, he does the obvious thing for an ambitious person and does his best to take over the Black Tower.
I'm sure this is a previously discussed theory, but I think that the various situations Taim is in, plus some of RJ's statements, show that he ISNT a DF. The events at Dumai's Wells also back my theory: he saves Rand because he doesn't have enough power to continue recruiting for the BT/Legion of the Dragon. Without the idea of serving the Dragon Reborn, male channelers wouldn't come in to the BT. However, with the huge numbers now in the camp, as well as the newly-cleansed Taint, I think Taim will begin to start making more obvious plays for power. He already has, it seems.
We can reasonably assume he is at least sympathetic to the Seanchan (Rand comments internally in tPoD that Taim knows of the Seanchan in Ebou Dar, but doesn't remark on it in his letter). Add this to Taim's obvious desire to attack the Aes Sedai, and the coming Seanchan assualt on Tar Valon, I think we can reasonably assume there is a degree of cohesion between the two forces. Taim seems to be playing everyone off against everyone else; he still claims to serve Rand, though we suspect he ordered the Cairheinin attack, he seems to be going with power #2 in Randland, the Seanchan, for an alliance as well. And then, he obviously intends to make a play for his own power once he eliminates Rand, the Aes Sedai, and has the Seanchan stretched to beyond their capacity to defend.
So in conclusion. Taim came to Rand with the sincere intention of being a loyal second in command (though he twists this into underling at Rand's forceful insistence). However, as he realizes that Rand has given him almost unlimited and unharassed control over the most powerful force in Randland, the Asha'man, his natural desire for power, coupled with his memories of "being" the Dragon Reborn, lead him to betray everyone and everything except himself and take the reins of power in Randland.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-25
I disagree. I have heard this idea before, which attempts to explain away all of his motivators as ego, pride, greed, etc. However, all of the darkfriend channelers we are familiar with happen to be his top guys in the Asha'man ranks, if I recall correctly. It appears he ordered the attack on Rand using these people. He doesn't indicate the Seanchan threat, and darkfriends and Semirhage just happen to be leading the Seanchan effort. And we are told, originally, that the Black Ajah likely had something to do with his initial escape. The rescue at the Well is one of many instances where there are competing goals that converge, such as the Trollocs in Tear. I would be shocked, after all of the clues Jordan has dropped, if Taim turned out to be just a power hungry channeler out to reclaim his former title from Rand. We know Moridin is Ishamael, we know Cyndane is Lanfear, and we know Aginor is Halima, because Jordan drops the clues; to explain away the clues that paint Taim as having connections with darkfriends as mere opportunism seems like a long shot. I wish I could include a quote or two, but my books are in storage, and I have run out of searches for the month. I am trying to be critical; you would have to explain logically each event that connects Taim to the darkside and why we should believe he is not connected to them more intimately than you are suggesting.
2
alivia: 2005-02-25
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that Taim is not a darkfriend, however I'm glad you are arguing for the point, Ozymandias, as I am not yet sold either way. And it's as fun as it is important to play the 'Devils advocate'.
There have always been major characters who have sparked debates about their alligence; Verin comes to mind because of her many instances of unexplainable behavior - nearly poisoning Cadsuane Sedai, among other things - and a whole rush of deabtes has since ensued.
Elaida is also another good example, she is ambitious, greedy, egotistical, and wholly - well - unwholsome. She is delivering major victories to the Shadow, yet fully believes she campaignes for the Light.
Slightly 'lesser' characters, such as Sevanna, inactively serve the Dark through their own misguided morals.
Granted, there are BA and forsaken influencing Sevanna & Elaida (among other 'good guys') But RJ has shown us this.
But Sevanna, Elaida, and Verin are not Darkfriends.
We never see anyone influencing Taim (who knows what influence Dashiva had?).
Taim is also ambitious, controlling, suspicious. He has almost all the same questionable qualities as Elaida and Sevanna. I think his fear of Rand breaking the Seal when they first meet is a big curveball in our impressions of him.
Let's also remember that many people want to kill/hurt/capture Rand, and not all of them are DFs. People are NOT black and white/good and evil, theres a lot of grey here to work with.
I believe that the biggest clue that Taim IS a darkfriend (a bigger clue than all his other actions combined) is that we have NEVER 'seen' his actions from a POV chapter - not in all this time.
(POV is a major tool of characterization in any book or movie, it helps us identify with the subject at hand. Even if they are evil anyone is understandable once you are in their head for a few moments)
We have seen other DFs pov's, such as Carridans & Liandrins'. And seen many POVs from seemingly minor characters on the side of the Light as well.
The longer the time goes that we haven't been in Taims' head, the more alien his actions and motivations become. We have not been allowed to identify with Taim AT ALL, that will make the final clue that much more shocking.
I belive we will not recieve a 'smoking gun' about Taim until the absolute last critical moment. Just as Rand does, in fact. I think at this point, after drawing it out for so long, RJs going to knock our socks off when it comes to Mazrim Taim.
3
Callandor: 2005-02-25
**He later shows horror at the possiblity of Rand breaking the seal he brings from Saldaea, which is somewhat definite proof of his not being a darkfriend.**
Or he's showing horror at Rand possibly being totally mad.
**I'm sure this is a previously discussed theory, but I think that the various situations Taim is in, plus some of RJ's statements, show that he ISNT a DF. The events at Dumai's Wells also back my theory: he saves Rand because he doesn't have enough power to continue recruiting for the BT/Legion of the Dragon.**
Or, you know, he was ordered to... Or under orders to keep Rand alive...
**Taim seems to be playing everyone off against everyone else; he still claims to serve Rand, though we suspect he ordered the Cairheinin attack, he seems to be going with power #2 in Randland, the Seanchan, for an alliance as well.**
Suspect?? Oh, no no no. We ~know~ he ordered the Fearsome Foursome to attack Rand in Cairhien.
** TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air
"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.**
Taim, as well as Moridin and Demandred, each orderd Kisman to kill Rand.
Plus, just explain the first few things first:
1. Taim's knowledge - he knows testing for male channeling ability, Healing, Compulsion, a plethora of other attacking weaves, as well as the ability to ignore heat and cold temperatures.
Some of the weaves can be explained if he is a wilder, however, all of them is so beyond belief. Look at the difficulty Rand had at learning relatively simple things (compared to Compulsion) before getting a teacher.
Also, every single channeler that we have met, with the only exception being Mazrim Taim, has had to be taught how to ignore heat and cold, from all societies (Randland, Aiel, Sea Folk, Seanchan). Mazrim Taim is the ONLY one in the entire world of the 3rd Age who just "magically" knows it. That's one heck of an exception.
2. His age. Taim apparently has been channeling for 15 years, yet he would've been slowing then, and not have been from around age 30 to look 35 in those 15 years of slowing. He'd still look around 30 compared to other people who have had slowed and their age rates. To age 15 years physically, Taim would have to be alive for around 70 years or so of active channeling.
3. The Taint. If Taim is a wilder, and the aging gap here is true (because it would be in this case), then he's been exposed to the taint for over 70 odd years. No way could anyone survive that without ANY signs of taint madness, which Taim shows absolutely none. However, if he's a Darkfriend, and has Black Cords, it's a simple explaination.
4. His knowledge of the Old Tongue. His remark about the Aiel is shared with only one other individual in the entire series: Ishamael/Moridin. I guess this is just coincidence, given evidence above, and that Ishamael was free early enough to give Taim the Black Cords, and train him. Even more of a coincidence then....
5. The gateway slip. Midly evident that he knew Traveling before hand, and was faking it.
6. Taim has pretty much built the Black Tower on his own. Why didn't he get this idea beforehand and train other males while he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn? He did say he trained other men, but he just gave up the habit.
Very strange that he just does this, since even with a simple Randland army, and given population distributions of channelers (roughly 1% this Age), he'd easily find 10-20 men that would be canidates. 10-20 even weakly trained male channelers could be quite decisive in any battle.
Yet he just gives this rationale up... Almost as if ordered to....
4
WinespringBrother: 2005-02-26
The examples given above by Alivia - Elaida and Sevanna for example - are perfect illustrations of proxies that the Shadow is using to get its way. Proxy meaning that the individual is being used by the Shadow without their knowledge, thinking they are going after goals that they want, while also advancing the agenda of the Dark One. Niall is another example, and Masema as well. They all are being exploited by their goals into doing things that ultimately undermine the light due to the chaos that is resulting from their actions, and they do not even feel the puppet strings they dance on. Taim may very well be another example, having been manipulated possibly by the fearsome foursome, Dashiva, and possibly Demandred, without knowing they are darkfriends. Remember, Demandred was linked with the Black Tower in the WH Coffee Hour, but he likes to act by proxy. Proxy doesn't mean that Taim is his ally, but his unknowing pawn.
Other past and future darkfriend proxies include Morgase, Tuon, Ituralde, Couladin, Egwene (though she has untied her strings), Sheriam (if she isn't a darkfriend anyway ;) that is).
5
Ozymandias: 2005-02-26
I agree with Winespring Brother here. Taim may be being influenced by another source. I personally think that its Dashiva/Demandred. We know Dashiva was there from the beginning. We know he was one of the first to wear the Dragon. Therefore we can assume, fairly certainly, that Dashiva has influenced, maybe even Compelled, many of Taim's action. As Winespring Brother said, there are many proxies in the book who help the Shadow, but hate it. I think Morgase is one of the best examples. In any case, I think that Taim can be explained as an insanely greedy and ambitious man who is being pushed a little bit by the Shadow and its minions. And I do believe that Taim is insane, at least a little. We know, from Perrin, that his scent changes as rapidly as Rand's, something sane people cannot do.
The attack on Cairhien, I believe, was initiated because Taim finally has an opportunity to get Rand out of the way and still maintain his own power. And by the way Tamyrlin, isn't Halima Balthamel? Wasn't the whole irony was that he was a lecher and got turned into an attractive woman? Its irrelevant, in any case. Taim has some inexplicable sayings and actions; there is a case for him being a DF; a very strong one, but there are several glaring inconsistencies. The most obvious being that of the Seal. While he's not stupid, I dont believe Taim is smart enough to have developed the whole theory that the seals hold open the DO's prison and should therefore be preserved to keep the Bore from closing up naturally (someone on this site posted that). And he wouldn't be worried by Rand's insanity, because he is, supposedly, a DF.
To refute a few arguments... I think Taim knows enough about the power because he has had quite a while to pick up on it. At the very most, we know that Rand had maybe a year, at most, without a teacher (in which he actively tries to access the OP). Rand happens to know some surprising things: he can make a sword made of flames (without being taught), he can handle a number of weaves at once (without being taught), and we have decent proof that he has some way of fighting off Darkhounds. Mind you, this is before LTT comes into his head, so we know that it isnt him. The only evidence we have of LTT is in the battle for the Stone, Rand does some interesting things to counter Ishy and send lightning through the walls, blah blah blah. Therefore, If Rand can know this in such an amazing short time, is it not possible that Taim has picked up on tricks like it in his years of channeling? And we can reasonably assume he didnt start a BT beforehand because it wasnt feasible. He has to fight battles and lay claim to the title of Dragon Reborn, he doesnt have the leisure time to hunt men down and train them.
In response to Taim's knowledge about the Old Tongue; well, Taim knows some interesting things. He knows what the Seals are, some other points that are dropped, etc. We know nothing about Taim before he declared himself. He could have been a scholar, for all we know. Maybe he found some abandoned barn with an ancient manuscript in it which told him a little about the Aiel. Or maybe he just scorns the Aiel because they cannot channel, as he seems to do for most people.
Rereading my post, I want to change it a little. Taim had NO intention of being loyal, ever. He came for the power, and for the opportunity to get power and fame. He says repeatedly that if he has to ride Rand's coattails, and bask even in the shadow of his glory, he will. (who knows, maybe Taim has read the Prophecies and wants to be the one who follows after Rand...). SO Taim is probably just a guy who has ambition and is susceptible to influence from darker elements, like Demandred. And since Taim's thoughts are feasibly treasonous to Rand anyways, Dashiva/Demandred could probably plant ideas in Mazrim's head and convince them he thought of them. So Taim, your an ass, but not a DF ass.
6
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-28
I'm not so sure that the ignoring heat and cold thing is as important as it seems. The Aiel all seem to be able to do it. Lan seems to have some ability too. It seems to be more a thing of character than anything else. Channelers learn to do it because it's an intimdation that they can use. Tiam could have learned it in the borderlands from some old solider just as easily as from a forsaken or his past life, or whatever.
7
Aendur: 2005-02-28
Callandor, there was no gateway "slip" on Taims part. I just re-read LoC, and Rand called it a gateway before Taim did. Sorry.
8
Callandor: 2005-03-01
**Callandor, there was no gateway "slip" on Taims part. I just re-read LoC, and Rand called it a gateway before Taim did. Sorry.**
Good for you, you missed it then.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes
*"This is a gateway,"* he told Taim. "I'll show you how to make one if you didn't catch it." The man was staring at him. If he had been watching carefully, he should have seen Rand's weaving of saidin; any man able to channel could do that.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes
"This lot was dredged from the bottom of ..." Taim began contemptuously, then stopped in the middle of the farmyard, staring at Rand. Chickens scratched in the dust around his feet. "You haven't tested any of them? Why, in the name of ... ? You cannot, can you? *You can ~Travel~, but you do not know how to test for the talent.*"**
Rand only refers to Traveling as a gateway while dealing with Taim; he never once says Travel before Taim says it. The gateway slip.
9
Callandor: 2005-03-01
**I'm not so sure that the ignoring heat and cold thing is as important as it seems. The Aiel all seem to be able to do it. Lan seems to have some ability too. It seems to be more a thing of character than anything else. Channelers learn to do it because it's an intimdation that they can use. Tiam could have learned it in the borderlands from some old solider just as easily as from a forsaken or his past life, or whatever.**
No. It is vitally important. The Aiel do ~NOT~ know this trick. They have simply adapted to their enviroment. If you go into a warm room, you'll feel discomfort for a while, but eventually you will hardly notice until you leave.
A perfect example of this is Aviendha:
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 10 - A Blazing Beacon
"Thumping along on his crutch, Master Ros bowed her to the door, and bowed her out onto the broad granite step where servants wearing heavy coats waited in the bitter cold with a stirrup cup of hot spiced wine that she rejected with a murmur. Until she had a chance to adjust to the sharp air, she wanted both hands to hold her cloak closed. Aviendha would probably have found a way to make her drop it anyway. She took a cup, after wrapping her shawl around her head and shoulders, the only concession she made to the icy morning. *She was ignoring the cold, of course. Elayne was the one who had taught her how.* Elayne tried again to push the cold away, and to her surprise, it receded. Not all the way - she still felt chilly - but it was better than freezing.**
Aviendha did not learn the trick from:
1. Maidens of the Spear
2. Any Aiel society member
3. Any Wise Ones
4. Any Aes Sedai prior to Elayne.
She had to be ~taught~ the trick.
Rand and Lan both knew the Void and used it. However, what happened to Rand? He had to ~learn~ the trick from Taim. He was sweating like crazy in the Waste even while channeling. Simply knowing the Void is not this ability (though close I would say).
All the societies have this.
1. Logain did not know the trick prior to going to the Black Tower -- he is seen sweating right after Nynaeve Heals him.
2. All Aes Sedai are taught this trick, upon reaching the shawl. There are uncountable references to this.
3. None of the Aiel Wise Ones know it -- as shown by Aviendha.
4. None of the Sea Folk know it -- their Windfinders sweat while dealing with Aviendha and Elayne in TPOD.
5. None of the Seanchan know it.
6. Heck, might as well throw it in -- the Ogier do not know it.
In all societies of the 3rd Age, not one of them of all the channelers we have met just magically knows this trick -- ~EXCEPT~ Mazrim Taim.
As I've said quite a bit: that's one hell of an exception.
10
WinespringBrother: 2005-03-01
Using the word 'Travel' doesn't mean you are Forsaken trained. In the early books, Moiraine, Verin, and Loial all referred to it in the proper context, before any 3rd agers like Rand and Egwene rediscovered it. Taim knowing that word proves nothing.
11
WinespringBrother: 2005-03-01
Quotes referencing 'Travel' by non-forsaken trained characters:
Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 21 - Listen to the Wind
"The whole world will be overrun in five if we do not find those boys," Moiraine said simply. "The question worries me, also, but I have no answers. The Ways are closed, and there has not been an Aes Sedai powerful enough to Travel since the Time of Madness. Unless one of the Forsaken is loose-the Light send it is not so, yet or ever - there is still no one who can. In any case, I do not think all the Forsaken together could move a thousand Trollocs. Let us deal with the problems that face us here and now; everything else must wait."
Great Hunt,CHAPTER: 13 - From Stone to Stone
"The Ogier shook his massive head sadly. "It was only a few pages. Part of it said Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, some of those who could Travel, the most powerful of them, could use these Stones. It did not say how, but I think, from what I could puzzle out, that perhaps those Aes Sedai used the Stones somehow to journey to those worlds." He glanced up at the seared trees and pulled his eyes down again quickly, as he did not want to think about what lay beyond the rim. "Yet even if Aes Sedai can use them, or could, we had no Aes Sedai with us to channel the Power, so I don't see how it can be."
Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be
"Verin sighed. "The symbols at the bottom indicate Stones at other places. If you know the trick of it, you could take us, not to this same Stone in another world, but to one of those others there, or even to one of them here. It was something akin to Traveling, I think, but just as no one remembers how to Travel, no one remembers the trick. Without that knowledge, trying it might easily destroy us all." She pointed to two parallel wavy lines crossed by an odd squiggle, carved low on the column. "That indicates a Stone on Toman Head. It is one of three Stones for which I know the symbol; the only one of those three I've visited. And what I learned - after nearly being caught by the snows in the Mountains of Mist and freezing my way across Almoth Plain - was absolutely nothing. Do you play at dice, or cards, Rand al'Thor?"
12
Callandor: 2005-03-02
**Using the word 'Travel' doesn't mean you are Forsaken trained.**
**Taim knowing that word proves nothing.**
No, it doesn't, and I did not say that it did, WSB. You're putting things in my mouth to prove a many times debated point that isn't there.
I said it was very suspicous, since he made the jump from gateways to Traveling in under 20 minutes.
What it is, is another one of those facets that just paint a very strange picture of Mazrim Taim that makes perfect sense if he was previously trained by a Forsaken (~now~ I said that).
13
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-02
If you've paid attention to Ewgene's POV, the trick with the ignoring the cold requires concentration. The times where you pointed to Avi not being able to do it, she was under great emotional stress, thus less concentration. Lan is never said to be sweating other than when he is physiclally exerting himself. It just makes him look harder. Rand doesn't learn the trick yet, and Avi is rather young before she learns it from Elayne. However, from Lan it seems that the trick can be discovered without being taught (I may be wrong here though).
14
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-02
"No. It is vitally important"
Is it? Someone had to learn it first of all, and so why could Taim not learn it the same way as that original discoverer?
That is not to say that Taim did learn it himself, just that it is a possibility. If Lan can do it, why not Taim? Unless you want to suggest Lan was trained by the Forsaken too.
15
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-03
Just to play devil's advocate to my own position, Lan may have learned it from Moraine. However, AS seem to never teach it to anyone else.
16
Callandor: 2005-03-04
**Is it? Someone had to learn it first of all, and so why could Taim not learn it the same way as that original discoverer?
That is not to say that Taim did learn it himself, just that it is a possibility. If Lan can do it, why not Taim? Unless you want to suggest Lan was trained by the Forsaken too.**
Because Lan CANNOT do it. Lan uses the Void occasionally, just like Rand did, and he has simply become accustomed to the heat or cold. Lan has the same techniques that Rand was using prior to LoC -- BEFORE Rand had learned to avoid the heat and cold. Lan doesn't know the trick at all.
Whoever found it, the 3rd Ages do not have the ability to discover it on their own by all indications we have been given. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM -- must be taught how to perform this. Whether it was Aes Sedai from the AoL surviving the Breaking and passing it on to other Aes Sedai, thats one way it survived and didnt need to be rediscovered.
**The times where you pointed to Avi not being able to do it, she was under great emotional stress, thus less concentration.**
No, Avi didn't know the trick until she was taught by Elayne (as I quoted above). As early as we know, this was in CoT.
**Rand doesn't learn the trick yet, and Avi is rather young before she learns it from Elayne.**
Age seems to have nothing to do with it. Aes Sedai are taught it upon being raised which the ages vary quite a bit.
17
Sampson: 2005-03-04
I agree with part of your theory, I do not think Taim was a friend of the dark when we were first introduced to him. I do not think he was a dark friend when he showed up and saved Rand at the battle of Dumi Wells.
But I do believe that his personality and ego would be enticed by the promise of power and immortality. I those promises would be enough to sway him into joining the dark side. I agree that Taim is not stupid and he is maneuvering for his own advantages.
I do not place any weight about his knowledge of the OP or the language he uses, to imply that he was trained by the forsaken or god forbid he has a voice from the AOL in his head. We can not know when he first started channeling and under what conditions. Hell he could have spent years studying & experimenting on everything he could find out about the OP. We do not know! We do know that it common knowledge that Aes Sedai develop different “tricks” while they are young and first learning (out side of the WT). Why couldn't Taim be the same? Also about ignoring the cold & heat, who said he couldn't have learned that in his studying. It's one of the things Aes Sedai learn when they gain the shawl, Tam & other fighting men know and use the Void, he could have came across it on his own and figured it out.
I propose an idea:
Saeleda(sp)- Martial type culture - Aes Sedai liked, wanted & respected - history of battles and peripheral information concerning people & reasons are well known.
Taim studied and experimented on his own. He would have known or heard all these stories of what Aes Sedai did in the AOL and stuff like that. He knew he had to learn as much as possible to help him from going mad. The Borderland fighters could have taught him the flame and void. I say he is smart and calculating and he isn't one who wants to fight physically. Bundle all that information and allot of the arguments can be explained away-----not all, but most.
Taim is a driven, power hungry guy who wants what he wants, and he is willing to pay the price. He is now a dark friend who swore his soul away, or is he?
The best point I see was made by Alivia: “I believe that the biggest clue that Taim IS a darkfriend (a bigger clue than all his other actions combined) is that we have NEVER 'seen' his actions from a POV chapter - not in all this time.”
That's a great point because as we all remember that Ingtar was a dark friend that we didn't ever get his POV, but ended up giving his life for the light. Just as a side note, Ingtar was very knowledgeable about history and things concerning the battles and people involved.
I can not see why people would argue that somebody who is smart enough and has the will power couldn't learn allot through study and experimentation, especially if that person didn't want to go mad or die or even be killed by people he knows.
18
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-05
"I can not see why people would argue that somebody who is smart enough and has the will power couldn't learn allot through study and experimentation"
Experimenting with the Power is dangerous, and Taim would probably be killed by his experiments before they yielded many useful results.
