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Home | Index | Archives | Help
aim is not Taim
by Lilbaz: 2005-07-08 | 3.29 out of 10 (14 votes)
Previous Categories: Taim - Then and Now
Taim was freed by Liandrin and her cronies. One of Liandrin's plans was to release Taim and set him up as a false Dragon as revealed in the Stone of Tear. I believe that Taim was freed but was then killed. This would explain why Bashere doesn't recognise him when he first comes face to face with Rand:
"Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his. The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile, and he rubbed his chin. "I shaved, Bashere." His voice held more than a hint of mockery. "It is hot this far south, or had you not noticed?. Hotter than it should be, even here. Do you want proof of me? Shall I channel for you?" His dark eyes flickered to Rand, then back to Bashere, whose face was growing darker by the minute. "Perhaps not that, not now. I remember you. I had you beat at Irinjavar, until those visions appeared in the sky. But everyone knows that. What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?" Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. "I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives." The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. "They shouldn't have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they'll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won't be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers."
Another quote:
"Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 5 - Questioners: "Joiya shrugged. "As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al'Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years."
My next supposition is that Taim is Moridin/Ishamael. This would explain why LTT hates him so much, he has not shown such hatred to anyone else including the Forsaken. He also says that if he kills him "Oh, Light, I killed them all All that I loved. If I kill him, it will be well, though. I can make it up, if I kill him finally. No, nothing can make up, but I must kill him anyway. Kill them all. I must. I must." He is of course talking about making it up to his family that he killed. He also says that he should have killed him long ago. Why long ago, Rand only met LTT months prior. The only person that he has known for a long time and who's death would even partly make up for the killing of his family is Ishamael/DO/Moridin/Taim.
"Without a pause Taim slipped to one knee. "I submit to the Dragon Reborn. I will serve and obey." The corners of his mouth quivered again in that almost smile as he rose. Tumad gaped at him."
The only major argument against this is that Moridin and Taim both gave Slayer orders. True he did but not at the same time, maybe he gave the first order as Moridin to get the statues and only kill him if he must, but then got a new message from the DO or changed his mind (week I know)and gave the second order just to kill him. Also remember we do have precedent of 2 different personallities contained in the same body, LTT/Rand and Slayer himself. Could Morridin/Taim be another Slayer? I would love to hear your views.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-08-12
It's not that I haven't heard this idea before; however, I haven't taken it too seriously until I realized there are a few additional facts to support your claim. First, Ishamael ran the Black Ajah before his death; their plans were his plans. What use did Ishamael have? Would he have given Liandrin the full set of plans? No. As far as she knew, they were breaking him out to set him up as a false dragon...which didn't happen? Why didn't it happen?...I am starting to like this theory. Ishamael shows up, tortures Taim, becomes him, and as that quote says, he compelled four guards, four of Bashere's guards in a very wicked manner it would seem. And Taim doesn't show up to Rand until Rand sends out his amnesty call. Bashere leaves with his army to chase Taim, who he will never find, but freeing up some of the armies of the North is one of Ishamael's plans. Then the so-called Aiel comment isn't something from the AoL...it is straight from Ishamael's mouth. His smiling, his amazing knowledge of everything. However, before I support your idea too much; can you prove Moridin was free in Lord of Chaos? I don't believe there is proof he is around in Lord of Chaos. I wouldn't go to the two personalities idea, though. I don't think that is the case, although it is possible the DO held on to Taim's body and placed Ishamael into that body, and the Moridin character is a MoM...anyway. I know there are other things against the Taim/Moridin idea, which I am sure Callandor will remind me of here in no time, but it is a good rehash before the end of the series.
Anubis: 2005-08-12
Ordinairly this would be one of those theories that i immediatly dismiss. but... if you start thinking taim is ishmael things make ALOT of sense. How do you explain the dumais wells rescue? I can think of a few ways but i would rather hear yours.
SugarBullet: 2005-08-12
I seem to recall Jordan saying something in response to a "Taimendred" question essentially said that demandred is not taim and that: "Taim is one paranoid S.O.B." Can anyone help me out there? Taim as a Paranoid S.O.B. is very intesting if you consider him to be Ish.
Jahar Narishma: 2005-08-12
You could also make the point that the Taim plot, becoming Rand's ally and being in charge of the Black Tower and all that, was the final straw in making Ishidin Nae'blis...of course, I happen to agree that he would have been anyways, but for those who don't, it's another useful piece of evidence. Even if Ishy/Moridin were destined to be Nae'blis anyways, becoming the de facto head of the Black Tower would explain why Ishidin was named Nae'blis when he was...after all, we hadn't seen him for a while, last time we did, he got himself killed facing Rand...it would make far more sense for there to be an intervening success to explain being given such an honor.
It would also explain why Taim has sometimes seemed to be on Rand's side, as well. In LOC, right after Rand gives out the sword pins and the dragon pin for Taim, they sit and talk over a glass of wine, and the madness comes back, to the point that he is talking to himself and Taim can tell. Rather than striking at him in his moment of weakness, Taim tells him:
"'You must hold on,' Taim said softly. 'If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail.'" LOC, p 765, Ch. 42, "The Black Tower."
As we know, Ishidin wants Rand to reach the Last Battle, telling other darkfriends only to kill him if they must, and even going so far as to give Rand a hand at Shadar Logoth.
But really, the main thing that makes me wonder if Taim is really Ishidin is the fact that Ishy/Moridin is really the only Forsaken who hasn't managed to completely and utterly screw up every single little detail of his assignments. Similarly, Taim is one of the few Darkfriends who is similarly competent. Every single other Darkfriend winds up futzing things up when push comes to shove, except Taim, who not only succeeds, but shows initiative, an ability to adapt his plans, gains the trust of Rand, defeats Aes Sedai, brings in a bunch of new recruits, etc etc.
The real test would be if we could see Taim's POV regarding Dashiva's disappearance. Dashivangar was killed at the Cleansing, something that Ishidin would likely know, since he knew who showed up and who didn't, and since the DO, and likely Ishidin as well, seem to know when Forsaken die. Taim, on the other hand, was not at the Cleansing, as far as we know, and knew little about it other than that it occurred and was successful. He probably knew that Dashiva had been sent out with Kisman, Rochaid, et al to track down and kill Rand, so his immediate lack of presence might not make it obvious. If, in the next book, Taim knows what happened to Dashiva, then it's likely that he is Ishidin. If, on the other hand, Taim not only has little knowledge of Dashiva's fate, but also seems less evil, due to Dashiva's lack of presence, then this would imply that maybe Taim isn't Ishidin, and also that much of Taim's actions were influenced by Dashiva.
First Selector: 2005-08-12
Excellent theory!
This would also explain such things as the disproportionate number of darkfriend Asha'man that come from Taim's palace.
Also, although limited as it is, in Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva's final POV, we don't see him bellyaching about listening to Taim, as he most probably would unless, of course, Taim is Mordin.
As an afterthought, it would be like Ishamael to use two identities to confuse his minions and enemies to protect himself.
Jahar Narishma: 2005-08-13
Also, Ishamael likes taking on grandiose titles. It wasn't enough to be "Ishamael," he also had to be "Ba'alzamon," and later, upon becoming Nae'blis, "Moridin."
Similarly, it's not enough for Taim to be Mazrim Taim, head of the Black Tower, he has to go ahead an name himself "M'Hael," and not just as a title. He's not "The M'Hael, Mazrim Tain," or "M'Hael Taim." No, he's just "M'Hael," it's his name, it's how his followers refer to him.
Certainly not conclusive, but it is another interesting piece of the puzzle
Sodas: 2005-08-13
The biggest problem with the theory is that Taim's personality. He subtly hates Rand, more akin to Demandred's personality, than the mutual respect that Ishmael seems to have for the Dragon.
Callandor: 2005-08-13
**Taim was freed by Liandrin and her cronies. One of Liandrin's plans was to release Taim and set him up as a false Dragon as revealed in the Stone of Tear. I believe that Taim was freed but was then killed.**
Well, first off, it's not for sure whether it was a true plan or not, let alone if it was carried out by Liandrin's crew. After all, they, at the time of the plan, seem to have gone straight from Tear to Tanchico, and not a word has been voiced by Liandrin (in POVs) or her crew about being elsewhere in that time. You could say that they did this before, but the same problems emerge -- no mention of it.
However, that's not to say that Taim couldn't (and most likely was) freed by other Black Ajah. Just most likely not Liandrin's crew ;)
**My next supposition is that Taim is Moridin/Ishamael.**
Interesting one, if not unheard of.
**This would explain why LTT hates him so much, he has not shown such hatred to anyone else including the Forsaken.**
Problem is that Lews Therin also hates Asha'man in general, anyone that channels in "his" "presence," Rand, himself, and basically anyone. He also, is quite a paradox. He wants to die and end his suffering (Lord of Chaos chapter 18 (no quote yet, sorry)), but he also doesn't want to die (Lord of Choas chapter 46). He also says "don't trust anyone" in The Fires of Heaven, and later in the series (believe The Path of Daggers), says "the man who trusts no one is dead" or similar.
Furthermore, going off what Lews Therin's reactions are, is very likely going off Rand's suppressed reactions ;) (but that's a pet theory).
**The only major argument against this is that Moridin and Taim both gave Slayer orders. True he did but not at the same time, maybe he gave the first order as Moridin to get the statues and only kill him if he must, but then got a new message from the DO or changed his mind (week I know)and gave the second order just to kill him. Also remember we do have precedent of 2 different personallities contained in the same body, LTT/Rand and Slayer himself. Could Morridin/Taim be another Slayer?**
Yes, it is a weak objection ;) But plausible if Taim is Ishamael, but that's unlikely.
1. Ishamael would have to use the Mask of Mirrors; he doesn't look anything like Taim except being a man. Moridin is the same case.
2. Ishamael was, as far as we know, dead at the time Taim came to Caemlyn. It is possible he was transmigrated before this, but you'd have to prove that.
3. (Nitpick) Slayer more than likely has two souls in his body that have remained distinct, rather than two personalities.
4. We've seen Moridin's POV, and it doesn't suggest anything of another personality, like Rand and Lews Therin or Isam and Luc in Slayer. Doesn't mean its out of question, just very unlikely.
5. You'd have to explain what Ishamael/Moridin has been doing to either be at the Black Tower as much as people ascribe and continuing with his plans.
It's possible that it could be done, but with the information we have, and Ishamael being known dead still at the time introduced to Taim, it's very unlikely that Taim is Ishamael.
**Ishamael shows up, tortures Taim, becomes him, and as that quote says, he compelled four guards, four of Bashere's guards in a very wicked manner it would seem.**
Well, also at the point of Taim's escape, we are pretty sure that Ishamael was still quite dead. Earliest placement of Ishamael's transmigration (by GLotD's theories) places it just before Asmodean was killed. Too late even for Taim's escape with that plan, if it was true.
**Then the so-called Aiel comment isn't something from the AoL...it is straight from Ishamael's mouth.**
Is a nice point in favor, but it could also point to Taim being his own man, and trained by Ishamael at an earlier date (probably before he proclaimed himself).
**I don't believe there is proof he is around in Lord of Chaos.**
Earliest showning of Moridin is in A Crown of Swords, chapter 25, Mindtrap. However, there is what seems to be earlier indications of Moridin, in A Crown of Swords, chapter 15, Insects (this is with Carridin, who had memories/orders implanted by Ishamael in The Great Hunt, that seem to spring to life in the chapter, implying possibly that Ishamael was transmigrated then, and the orders were "reborn" so to say). But there isn't any real evidence of Moridin in Lord of Chaos, no. Might be suggestive ones, but I doubt there is.
**As we know, Ishidin wants Rand to reach the Last Battle, telling other darkfriends only to kill him if they must, and even going so far as to give Rand a hand at Shadar Logoth.**
Yes, but it could also very easily be Taim showing genuine concern (even I doubt that ;)) or concern over orders that place him to "watch over" Rand or make sure he stays alive.
**Similarly, Taim is one of the few Darkfriends who is similarly competent. Every single other Darkfriend winds up futzing things up when push comes to shove, except Taim, who not only succeeds, but shows initiative, an ability to adapt his plans, gains the trust of Rand, defeats Aes Sedai, brings in a bunch of new recruits, etc etc.**
Well, the The Path of Daggers attack wasn't a smashing good success ;)
**This would also explain such things as the disproportionate number of darkfriend Asha'man that come from Taim's palace.**
Or that Taim is a high placed Darkfriend, who trained them and looks out for other potential Darkfriends ;)
Rune420: 2005-08-13
I havn't decided one way or the other on whether I believe this is possible, but I think I'll give this bit of info to see if someone can explain it way good.
Isn't Ishmael/Moridin supposed to be as strong as Rand? Taim is weaker than him, we know this because of that scene when Rand first takes Taim to the black tower. Of course Taim *could* have not been drawing as much as he can, but this is still a shaky point for me.
But I do think there's an elegance to this idea, the dark one's greatest servant (with the possible exception of SH) is the one that's teaching the Asha'Man.
I don't think I'm gonna be joining a "Taimidin" faction any time soon though ^_^.
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-08-13
sorry guys, i'm afraid i must say something against this theory.
To start with, we know that Moridin isn't disquising himself as Taim with illusion due to the fact that Bashere didn't recognise him. This established, i ask you how Rand failed to realise that the person helping him out against Sammael was Taim. We can make a fairly confident assumption that he was not using illusion then due to the fact that Rand's description of him seems pretty much the normal look of him.
Mappo: 2005-08-13
Here's what Moridin says when he meets with the other Forsaken in WH:
br>[b]"Killed?" Moridin moved his hands as though weighing something. "If it comes to that, yes," he said finally. "But finding him is no problem. When he touches the Choedan Kal, you will know where he is. And you will go there and take him. Or kill him, if necessary. The Nae'blis has spoken." [/b]
He says something similar to Kisman:
[b]And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions."[/b]
And here's what Taim had ordered:
[b]"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance[/b]
So Ishy/Taim first orders Rand to be killed while everything implies that his plan had been Rand to be kept alive and then when Rand is much more dangerous, being close to cleansing saidin he does not want him killed, unless really necessary. This whole sequence of events doesn't fit with Taim=Moridin theory at all, IMO.
Garayur: 2005-08-13
Perhaps Taim is a modern Dreadlord that has been trained and groomed by Ishidin. I like the theory but it would be fairly difficult to be moving around all the time as both taim and moridin. Moridin seems to spend most of his time jumping around and spying, while taim hangs out in the black tower training dark asha'man. Look at all the amyrilin has to deal with, taims workload probably isn't that bad but he would still be busy all day. plus he would have to continuosly wear a power disguise.
Davian93: 2005-08-13
My only major problem with this theory is where in the world does Ishy find the time to moonlight as Taim??? Taim is constantly training people at the Black Tower...I doubt he has time to be both there, at Shayol Ghul and fit in some time to sleep.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-08-13
I almost completely agree.
I was just rereading that section of the series, and my thought had been, "Hmmmm, could Taim be Ish?" Then you posted the theory before I could make one. I love it.
However, I had a couple hours to continually reread the areas in question, and I had one problem, that I would like to hear thoughts on. The Sword and Dragon to mark Dedicated and Asha'man. His reaction to recieving those is very similar to Demandred's or Sammael's. He resents that Rand is bestowing an honor on him, feeling that Rand had no right to bestow the honor, as he had already earned it.
Ishamael never seemed to have this problem that we know of.
However every other part of Taim's quirkiness is explained away by being Ishamael.
So, what are your thoughts on that problem?
JakOShadows: 2005-08-13
There's a lot of good evidence to support this theory. And I like how there aren't many flaws to counteract them. But the truth is one of the other forsaken has the skills to do it if he gets past his pride, so I Ishy was back at that time he could have "inspired" them to do a better job. But I do think that, given all the evidence, Ishy did have a hand in this. And you also got to remember that we have no insight into what Demandred has been doing, even though Taim does seem to be quite out of character. The main thing I'm trying to say is, there is a lot of good circumstantial proof this theory, but it is not quite on firm footing yet.
Tamyrlin: 2005-08-13
By the way, we have talked about Be'lal, and how the DO could have transmigrated him. Isn't it possible Taim was freed, memories distilled, and his body was given to Be'lal? :)
Callandor: 2005-08-14
**There's a lot of good evidence to support this theory. And I like how there aren't many flaws to counteract them.**
Except our knowledge telling us that Ishamael was still dead at the time Taim appeared. That's a big problem.
** Perhaps Taim is a modern Dreadlord that has been trained and groomed by Ishidin. I like the theory but it would be fairly difficult to be moving around all the time as both taim and moridin.**
Much more likely cause it can solve to glaring problems:
1. Ishamael died -- Taim could've been trained before this of course and possibly continued afterwards (or, it could as easily be no more training).
2. It seems Taim would be quite busy, and hard to be him and Moridin at the same time, in quite different places.
terez: 2005-08-14
" By the way, we have talked about Be'lal, and how the DO could have transmigrated him. Isn't it possible Taim was freed, memories distilled, and his body was given to Be'lal? :) "
But for one thing: Taim's contempt for the sword.
Lilbaz: 2005-08-14
Am I missing somthing, Ishamael died in book 5, and Taim appeared in book 6. How do we know that Ishamael was still dead when Taim first appeared? Good arguments against the theory, could Taim be a replacement Forsaken. Is the number of 13 forsaken important, it take 13 channelers and 13 Half men to force someone into the service of the DO. Could this be the plan for Rand and does this mean that we can expect another powerful channeler to be another Forsaken, replacing Asmodean and Belal?
mako0424: 2005-08-14
I think this theory is right.
Everyone either looks very hard for things in favor or against theories in general but seems to blazen by the obvious details that are even more crucial.
Ok, everyone is suggesting that Ishamael's death, Taim's appearance, and Moridin's renewal doesnt coincedence well enough, but it more importantly doesn't contradict one another.
Also i think a great point in favor is what success of Moridin's was big enough to earn Nae'blis, well duh! the placement of himself as Rand's right-hand man, grudingly and no trust, but The Leader of the Black Tower is more powerful that the Dragon in many ways, and Moridin has also brought tons of Asha'man to his cause, and we know that the Black ajah for a long time received instructions from Ishy, to te point that he killed Jalarni and replaced her with Alviarhin as head of the surpreme council on Black ajah.
A huge point everyone brushed by, Bashere doesn't recognize Taim. We know if anyone remembers Taim it would be Bashere, and Bashere questions him, and everyone else must realize how suspicious Taim's spiel in reposnse is. Taim says all those things to make Bashere angry enough not to think about it too much. This also leands huge support to the Taim having been toruted for all information, which if lets say was the intention the entire time, Ihsy Moridin could have askjed every innocuous question possible to ensure a great cover.
Ok, fine another point everyone thinks is important, if they are the same that means Moridin would have to hold onto a Mask of Mirrors disguise almost 24/7, ok so what! would a man who uses the True Power without any reserve and so callously really care about holding a disguise all day long, he probably would use the True Power to do it too.
Another point everyone mentions, Taim must be really busy while Moridin spys alot, ok well i see no solid argument. Im sure Taim has alot of his own eyes-and-ears now with the Black Tower growing so ferociously, and Taim out of every Asha'man at the Black Tower has the most cause and leeway to Travel about all day long, which lends more support to him being Moridin. Whos going to tell the M'Hael, where r u going? by yourself? you Travel alot, no, no one will say anything. Moridin's kind of craziness is also totally transferrable to Taim who is constantly showing anger, respect, and surprise around Rand with his almost smiles, quirks, and repressed glares and anger.
Another huge point no body mentioned, This would totally explain why Taim had one of the Seals when he showed up in Caemlyn. Taim may have been a powerful False Dragon, but doesn't fully explain how he would come by a SEal, and also why he didnt lose it when caught by the Aes'Sedai and was attempted at being broken free or gentled, somehow he retained the Seal the entire time, ya right.
There are tons of more points, but i think this theory almost speaks for itself, not to say at least that if we find out Taim actually is a Forsaken-groomed Dreadlord or something, i wont be totally surpirsed, or anything, and i'll swallow my prde, but this explains alot more.
Jahar Narishma: 2005-08-14
"Except our knowledge telling us that Ishamael was still dead at the time Taim appeared. That's a big problem."
Not really. We know that Ishy is dead, but unlike Aginor and Balthamel, we don't get to see their actual reincarnation sequence. The first glimpse we get of Ishy is when he's already established as Nae'blis and calls himself Moridin.
Now, we do know that when Forsaken are transmigrated, they are usually given some new task to make up for the fact that they done futzed up. We also know that during the time that Taim shows up, the DO is offering the prize of Nae'blis to several Forsaken to get them to try harder with certain plans.
Now, I personally think that Ishamael would have been Nae'blis anyways, given that he's been the most successful of the Forsaken even if he weren't Taim...but the DO, like all good bosses, probably likes to give out rewards in response to serious successes. Even if Ishamael was to have been Nae'blis, it figures that the DO might wait until he had done something particularly successful to attain the title.
Look, Ishy wouldn't have known that he'd be put in charge of the BT. That wasn't something that he really could have accomplished. In fact, it seems more likely that the original plan, regardless of Taim's true identity, was to establish Taim as Rand's next teacher, like Asmodean. In fact, if Taim showing up was part of a specific darkfriend plot and not just coincidence, then it also implies that Taim or whoever set him up knew about Asmodean's death.
Now, supposing that Taim was Ishamael. The original plan was to show up an be Rand's new teacher, which sort of fits with some of Ishy's earlier plotting, in that he alone, of all the Forsaken, wants to bring Al'Thor to the dark side of his own volition, rather than kill him, or making him a love slave like Lanfear. So Ishy shows up, planning on following this plan, and then Al'Thor puts him in charge of training men who can channel and makes him his lieutenant. This is almost better than the original plan, but it's also a bit much for Ishy to handle on his own, so what does he do? He brings in Osangar, who he knows isn't going to futz things up again, and has him help out as Dashiva.
That being said, the main objection to Taim being Ishidin is that one gets the impression that the Nae'blis would have better things to do than train Asha'man.
Anubis: 2005-08-14
1. We dont know how Ishy or Taim spend the vast majority of their time.
2. **But for one thing: Taim's contempt for the sword.** When did Ishmael/Morridin ever use a sword?
3. More for Callandor, your main objection was that Ishy was dead (to our knowledge) at the time. Considering that we know next to nothing about how long it takes to reincarnate someone Dark One style, and the fact that Ishmael was the most important person to be given a new body, this doesnt hold that much water.
Callandor: 2005-08-14
**Am I missing somthing, Ishamael died in book 5, and Taim appeared in book 6.**
Yes, you're missing one thing: Ishamael died in book 3, The Dragon Reborn ;). However, your general objection, is still valid.
**Is the number of 13 forsaken important, it take 13 channelers and 13 Half men to force someone into the service of the DO.**
The number 13 isn't important at all, shown by that there were more than 13 Chosen in the Age of Legends. Also, the Black Ajah is more likely to take part in the turning of a channeler, since there are more than them, and when have the Forsaken really truely worked together in numbers greater than 2 (even the 4 that got together in The Fires of Heaven, had trust problems up the wazoo)? The Forsaken would most likely summon 13 Black Ajah, and 13 Myrddraal to preform the turning (like Liandrin said Be'lal was doing in book 3).
**Ok, everyone is suggesting that Ishamael's death, Taim's appearance, and Moridin's renewal doesnt coincedence well enough, but it more importantly doesn't contradict one another.**
It does if Ishamael wasn't transmigrated before book 6, which most likely is true, and we have no backing at all to the contrary.
**Also i think a great point in favor is what success of Moridin's was big enough to earn Nae'blis, well duh! the placement of himself as Rand's right-hand man, grudingly and no trust, but The Leader of the Black Tower is more powerful that the Dragon in many ways, and Moridin has also brought tons of Asha'man to his cause, and we know that the Black ajah for a long time received instructions from Ishy, to te point that he killed Jalarni and replaced her with Alviarhin as head of the surpreme council on Black ajah.**
Mako... you do realize that Ishamael had all his actions before the series started that should've been enough to make him named Nae'blis.
Things such as the Trolloc Wars (started by him, if not always run by him), the creation of the Black Ajah, the destruction of Artur Hawkwing's empire, the send off of what would become the Seanchan Empire (and their eventual return), the reduction of Aes Sedai controlled land to the island of Tar Valon. And then what might be considered moderate successes in the time of the series, even if they weren't as great as the earlier. Things like keeping the Forsaken in line as much as possible then (Graendal alludes to this in The Fires of Heaven), the possible using of the Eye of the World (if you believe this is what started the weakening and destruction of the seals), the watching and guiding of the Seanchan arrival.
Now, if Ishamael is Taim, and was placed, sure, it's another thing to add under his belt. But it would also be added under his belt if he trained Taim, and was then set up in the Black Tower while Ishamael was gone (doubtful the setup was under Ishamael's orders, but the fact that Taim would be Ishamael's pawn is what would be added to Ishamael's resume).
** This also leands huge support to the Taim having been toruted for all information, which if lets say was the intention the entire time, Ihsy Moridin could have askjed every innocuous question possible to ensure a great cover.**
But if he was tortured for information, Ishamael wouldn't learn what he looked like to use for the Mask of Mirrors? That seems doubtful.
**Another point everyone mentions, Taim must be really busy while Moridin spys alot, ok well i see no solid argument. Im sure Taim has alot of his own eyes-and-ears now with the Black Tower growing so ferociously, and Taim out of every Asha'man at the Black Tower has the most cause and leeway to Travel about all day long, which lends more support to him being Moridin. Whos going to tell the M'Hael, where r u going? by yourself? you Travel alot, no, no one will say anything. Moridin's kind of craziness is also totally transferrable to Taim who is constantly showing anger, respect, and surprise around Rand with his almost smiles, quirks, and repressed glares and anger.**
Taim is the least likely person to Travel from the Black Tower, because he does not recruit anymore (except under order from Rand, like with the Two Rivers). He hasn't since probably the middle to late Lord of Chaos (and I know he says it at one point). His job is to be at the Black Tower, and train the students, every day. As far as we know, he has done that, except when recruiting, and meeting with Rand.
Case in point: in Lord of Choas, chapter 11, Lessons and Teachers, Rand gets bonded by Alanna (technically that happened in chapter 10, but it's right after it happened). He then flees from Caemlyn, and Travels to the Black Tower, spur of the moment. He meets and talks with Taim.
Now, think about this. Rand earlier was at the Palace, he went the Inn that Verin and Alanna were at because news of them came up, so it was relatively spur of the moment as well. Rand is next seen headed straight for the Royal Palace. Ok. So, say you're Ishamael. What would you be doing? Since Rand seems busy doing other things, you might be out doing the other things we know Ishamael does (all his Forsaken manuverings). Yet, it would be completely unknown, even with spies in the Palace, that Rand was headed to the Black Tower again so soon -- spies couldn't say whether Rand was going to Travel to Cairhien or Tear or anywhere else for that matter. They couldn't give a warning to Ishamael "RAND IS GOING TO THE FARM! GET BACK QUICK!"
Yet, Taim is there when Rand appears. Odds are, he never left. Unlikely Ishamael has the time like that to just waste, even if he is in a good spot as the M'Hael.
Heck, if Rand has enough on his plate to not be able to run the Black Tower, I'm highly doubting Ishamael could've, even if he was back at that time, and still do what he does.
**Not really. We know that Ishy is dead, but unlike Aginor and Balthamel, we don't get to see their actual reincarnation sequence. The first glimpse we get of Ishy is when he's already established as Nae'blis and calls himself Moridin.**
1. We do see Osan'gar and Aran'gar just after they were transmigrated. It's in the Prologue to Lord of Chaos.
2. No. We first "see" Moridin in A Crown of Swords, chapter 25, Mindtrap. He is not Nae'blis then. He is only named bliss sometime between The Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart (hard to say exactly due to the overlap that abounds between those two books alone).
**Even if Ishamael was to have been Nae'blis, it figures that the DO might wait until he had done something particularly successful to attain the title.**
Such as getting under control two Forsaken, via the mindtrap?
**In fact, if Taim showing up was part of a specific darkfriend plot and not just coincidence, then it also implies that Taim or whoever set him up knew about Asmodean's death.**
There's a month of Randland time that passes from the day Rand announces his amnesty, the same day that Asmodean is killed, and the day Taim arrives in Caemlyn. That's enough time to alter plans for Taim to go in thinking he can be appart of this channeling school (even though, yes, it's unlikely they would plan on him being the leader).
**So Ishy shows up, planning on following this plan, and then Al'Thor puts him in charge of training men who can channel and makes him his lieutenant.**
1. Please give at least hints that show Ishamael would've been back at the time to do this.
2. So, in this Ishamael (assuming he was somehow back at this time), is completely unaware of the knowledge that Asmodean was Rand's teacher? That seems to be knowledge well spread to the rest of the Forsaken (not the specific details, but that he was his teacher).
**This is almost better than the original plan, but it's also a bit much for Ishy to handle on his own, so what does he do? He brings in Osangar, who he knows isn't going to futz things up again, and has him help out as Dashiva.**
But:
1. Dashiva wasn't in the Black Tower until some time past mid-Lord of Chaos (he definately wasn't at the Black Tower the first 2 times Rand visits, and most likely is by the time he announces that the farm is now the Black Tower, and they are Asha'man).
2. Dashiva didn't spend much time at the Black Tower.
3. Dashiva spent the rest of his time past Dumai's Wells, with Rand (heck, that'd be the place Ishamael would most likely want to be if anywhere).
4. It's not that Dashiva was the one put in place to teach the Asha'man -- that's Taim.
That's hardly helping Ishamael at the Black Tower, if he was Taim.
**That being said, the main objection to Taim being Ishidin is that one gets the impression that the Nae'blis would have better things to do than train Asha'man.**
Not just better things to do, but that it would be incredibly hard for him to be at the Black Tower, and still fulfill his other roles that we know he does as Ishamael/Moridin (widespread Shadow manuverings). Kinda like how you don't look for Mesaana's secret identity, as an Aes Sedai in the Salidar Aes Sedai. Kinda hard to bounce back and forth between them, even with Travelling involved.
Crazy Ernie: 2005-08-15
Has anyone considered the saa? Almost every time we see Moridin, there is a reference to the saa, usually something about the increased number of them. If Ishy/Moridin is masquerading as Taim, he clearly has to be using some form of Illusion given that their physical appearances are very different. But would the Illusion hide the saa? We know that Illusion doesn't work very well when the (Illusion) appearance is very different from the actual physical appearance, or when there is rapid movement (e.g. Alviarin & Mesanna). Given the limitations of Illusion, I don't think it could disguise lots of black flecks flowing randomly across Taim's eyes. Anyone else have an opinion on this?
Callandor: 2005-08-15
**3. More for Callandor, your main objection was that Ishy was dead (to our knowledge) at the time. Considering that we know next to nothing about how long it takes to reincarnate someone Dark One style, and the fact that Ishmael was the most important person to be given a new body, this doesnt hold that much water.**
Since we didn't see Moridin until A Crown of Swords, and no evidence has come forward yet about any release prior to that, how are we to say that he was transmigrated way before we see him?
Case in point, Osan'gar and Aran'gar were dead for around a year and a half (17 months about). Yet, we first see them at the start of Lord of Chaos. We didn't see them at all during the inbetween time... because they were dead.
Please show some hints or something besides, "Theres a long time between his death and his appearance where he could've been reborn and we just didn't know."
Moridin was out a bit before he's first see, but saying he was out by The Fires of Heaven or the start of Lord of Chaos or even earlier than those two (since some seem to imply that he's been back since Taim was freed in The Shadow Rising), seems ridiculous. Some hints are needed for that claim to even begin to be taken seriously.
Richard: 2005-08-15
I like this theory... I want to like it, but -- there is always a but -- doesn't ishi have to be "sane" to play Taim, I'm not entirely sure he can be so sane when being Taim and kind of mad when being Moridin. Pluss, doesn't he have the saas (or whatever those sparks dancing in the eyes are called) nowdays?
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-15
Anubis, I believe Terez's comment was providing a reason that Be'lal is unlikely Taim, not Ishamael.
Ishamael does not use a sword. We always see him with a staff. So, in this respect, Taim resembles Ishamael more than Be'lal.
But then, if Taim isn't Ishamael, he could have picked up his contempt of swords from Ishamael (if he was indead trained by him), along with other views.
Dumai Wells: 2005-08-15
RJ went out of his way to make it seem like Taim was Demandred, but we come to find out he was messing with us and Taim is definately not Demandred. Why would he give that Demandred run around to us, only to make Taim to actually be Ishmael? This is way too outlandish even for RJ. You guys have to get into Ishmael's head. Do you really think he would lower himself and pose as Taim? Remember how arrogant he is, he is Naeblis and the Dark's Champion. He is a cut above the other forsaken and would never bow down to Rand the way Taim is constantly forced to. Also remember one thing, we know that Osangar was Dashiva, and we know that Demandred is also connected to the black tower somehow... "you were responsible for watching him Demandred, you and Osangar".. and now we are supposed to believe that Ishmael is Taim? So Demandred, Osangar, AND Ishmael all connected to the Black Tower? I dont think so. Also as far as we know, Ishmael has been only been using the True Power exclusively since his Transmigration and in his opinion has no desire to use the inferior one power. Also remember that in TEOTW Ishmael was using the name Balzamon, he let Rand, Mat, and Perrin believe he was the actual Dark One, he never said it outright but he let them believe, this man would not downgrade to pose as Taim, even the forsaken would say "one would think Ishmael thought he was the Dark One himself" Sorry but Taim is definately not Ishmael.
Anubis: 2005-08-15
Let me get this straight. I dont know for sure, and you dont know for sure, so you are right? Get ahold of yourself captain arrogance. Im just saying its possible.
Anubis: 2005-08-15
Heres the thing Callandor. And this is why I think its crap that you dont believe Morridin was around before we saw him.
1. When we first see Osan and Aran they are freshly reincarnated. Just getting used to their bodies. When we see Morridin he already has Saa, and is more then comfortable in his new form, is well established, and shows no sign of discomfort, or getting used to a new body. I imagine it would take a minimum of weeks to get used to a new bodys mannerisms, habbits, strengths, etc.
2. The toxic twins were next to worthless. A geneticist, and a greedy tratorous bastard. Wow, mark them highest priority on my bring back to life list. Ishy on the other hand is the DOs main man. They have been working together, hand in hand, for over three thousand years. Do you think it is just a bit possible, that the Dark One may have given Ishmael slightly higher priority then the gars?
2.5 argument that morridin was around before he came onscreen, combined with argument that morridin would have been reincarnated faster (if it is possible and if it isnt provide quotes) then the Garrs.
In my opinion thinking Ishmael was out of action for more then three books is wishfull thinking.
JakOShadows: 2005-08-16
Now that I read all of your arguments, it seems quite a bit out of character for Ishy to pose as Taim. And he definitely doesn't have enough time considering his role as pointman. I do think he was transmigrated way before the time he appeared in the book. I think he could have been doing some behind the scenes work, maybe personally guiding his puppet leader at the BT. But there is no proof either way still. Personally, I think Ishy is not posing as Taim, but there is not enough evidence to back up either side of the argument.
Ishamael: 2005-08-16
I seem to remember Ishy asking the D.O. for aid just b4 he "died" in TDR. What if the D.O. really did give him aid...we dont know the full extent of the power of D.O. What if he never really died...just somehow became moridin by some D.O power we dont know of. Then he figures he would lay low for the next few books..to plan a little better. RJ makes us think what he wants us too think. It it up to our imaginations to do the rest. Now with that being said..doesn't mean Ishy is Taim. Taim is Taim...not Ishy..not Dem...and I dont see how anyone could have even have thought so...perhaps..some people thought Taim was dem..cause it was implied so..then later refuted by RJ..but Sammael even rules out Taim as Dem in LOC..threads woven of Shadow...saying events in the south had Demandreds markings all over them..he always liked using proxies....shoulda been reasoned out right then that Taim is Demandreds drone...not Ishy..not Dem...just Taim...acting on Dems orders..to an extent
Laughingman: 2005-08-16
Not everyone has to be a Forsaken/Chosen in disguise, or even taking orders from them. In the War of Power/The Collapse and even in the Trolloc Wars years after Saidin became tainted there were always Dreadlords. Darkfriends who could channel. The Chosen were pretty much just the highest ranking Dreadlords, or the first to submit to the Dark One.
To me, Taim is a Dreadlord, a darkfriend who can channel, and a very high ranking one, possibly a NEW chosen, or getting ready to be.
But the thing that stands out about Taim being Moridin/Ishy is this. Its reported that Taim was in battle at the time Rand fought Ishy. Quite clearly stated, by Aes Sedai and by Taim himself. So if Taim is Ishy, then it would have had to have happened after that. I'm willing to go along with Callandor as saying that Taim was probably trained BY Ishy, but I don't think there is any possible way Taim could BE Ishy.
Lilbaz: 2005-08-16
Really good arguments for both sides, my main reason for thinking that Taim COULD be Ishy is LTT's reaction, that if he killed him maybe he would be forgiven killing his wife and family? Who else would be a worthy enough kill for that crime?
There is a lot of support for the idea that Taim is Ishy's puppet, but would Ishy's trained darkfriend go against his wishes and order the death of Rand? Unless ofcourse he told Taim but then why would he tell the ashaman to kill him if he must himself? All I know is that RJ writes a great story and I can't wait to find out :).
Callandor: 2005-08-17
**But would the Illusion hide the saa?**
More than likely, it would. It's not a very major change, all someone would have to do is put the Illusion over their eyes to change them to whatever they want, and it should work.
However, with Ishamael and Moridin looking compartively nothing like Taim, the durability, so to speak, of the entire Illusion might be questionable.
**Let me get this straight. I dont know for sure, and you dont know for sure, so you are right? Get ahold of yourself captain arrogance. Im just saying its possible.**
Prove it. Otherwise, fall to the likely answer: he was dead.
**1. When we first see Osan and Aran they are freshly reincarnated. Just getting used to their bodies. When we see Morridin he already has Saa, and is more then comfortable in his new form, is well established, and shows no sign of discomfort, or getting used to a new body. I imagine it would take a minimum of weeks to get used to a new bodys mannerisms, habbits, strengths, etc.**
Notice how I have continually said that when we first see Moridin it is obviously after he has been transmigrated. Of course it wasn't when he was fresh out of the grave -- but to assume it was weeks or months since he was brought back, is supposition.
**2. The toxic twins were next to worthless. A geneticist, and a greedy tratorous bastard. Wow, mark them highest priority on my bring back to life list. Ishy on the other hand is the DOs main man. They have been working together, hand in hand, for over three thousand years. Do you think it is just a bit possible, that the Dark One may have given Ishmael slightly higher priority then the gars?**
Funny that the Dark One didn't think they were useless, since he brought them back.
**In my opinion thinking Ishmael was out of action for more then three books is wishfull thinking.**
Well, sorry, you're going to have to do a lot more proving than that to even begin to make this likely Anubis. Yes, Ishamael is an important player in the Forsaken, but by all accounts he was not transmigrated until around late Lord of Chaos (at the very earliest due to A Crown of Swords being roughly a week of Randland time), or A Crown of Swords. Plain and simple.
Ishamael transmigrated before anyone else... to do what? To spend night and day training students for the Black Tower, while seemingly to ignore his position of importance?
**I seem to remember Ishy asking the D.O. for aid just b4 he "died" in TDR. What if the D.O. really did give him aid...we dont know the full extent of the power of D.O. What if he never really died...just somehow became moridin by some D.O power we dont know of.**
Because we have no basis for such a power at all. We know the Dark One can transmigrate his Forsaken, but the Forsaken do have to die and be inactive for a while until they are given a new body. We don't have any basis that Ishamael somehow did not die (which he did, since he had a sword through his chest, Rand saw the body, Mat saw the body, and the body rotted away completely quite quickly), but was immediately active as Moridin.
Furthermore, actions that the Forsaken take in The Shadow Rising, The Fires of Heaven, and Lord of Chaos do not signify Ishamael being back. Rand isn't given nearly as difficult confrontation, Ishamael/Moridin isn't hounding at his heels, the Forsaken seemingly work together without Ishamael/Moridin to no success, and the Dark plans seem to take a slight de-railing until around the time of Moridin's appearance. The closest someone could come to an action that might be Ishamael-like, is the killing of Asmodean, which is equally unbased.
**Really good arguments for both sides, my main reason for thinking that Taim COULD be Ishy is LTT's reaction, that if he killed him maybe he would be forgiven killing his wife and family? Who else would be a worthy enough kill for that crime?**
Lews Therin at times rants about killing Taim, killing all male channelers, killing the Forsaken, that Rand cannot trust anyone, and the person who doesn't trust anyone is dead (or words to that effect). Picking out a strightforward meaning of Lews Therin is quite difficult, and hardly proof of anything.
Garayur: 2005-08-17
Also when Rand comes face to face with Ishidin in CoS there is no reaction from LTT. Rand had a conversation with Ishidin in Shadar Logoth when Ishiden saves him and there is no ranting raving reaction while LTT always rants and raves in Taims presence. That shows that LTT doesn't rant because Taim is ishidin, he rant's because he hates taim or whatever reason.
*A hand grabbed his right wrist. "You are a fool," a man's deep voice said. "Count yourself lucky I don't care to see you die today." The hand began drawing him up. "Are you going to help?" the voice demanded. "I don't intend to carry you on my shoulders, or kill Sammael for you."
Shaking off his shock, Rand reached up and grabbed the rim of the hole, pulling despite the agony of his side. Despite the agony, he managed to acquire the Void again, too, and seize saidin. He did not channel, but he wanted to be ready.
His head and shoulders came above the floor, and he could see the other man, a big fellow little older than he, with hair black as the night and a coat black as an Asha'man's. Rand had never seen him before. At least he was not one of the Forsaken; those faces he knew. He thought he did, anyway. "Who are you?" he demanded.
Still heaving, the man barked a laugh. "Just say I'm a wanderer passing through. Do you really want to talk now?"
Saving his breath, Rand struggled upward, getting his chest over the lip, his waist. Abruptly he realized that a glow bathed the floor around them like the glow of a full moon.
Twisting to look over his shoulder, he saw Mashadar. Not a tendril, but a shining silver-gray wave rolling out of one of the balconies, arching over their heads. Descending. Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.
Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. Everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed.
Unsteadily, he got to his feet and offered a hand. "I think we best move quickly. What happened there?"
The other man pushed himself up with a grimace at Rand's proffered hand. He was easily as tall as Rand, rare except among the Aiel. "I don't know what happened," he snarled. "Run, if you want to live." He suited his own words immediately, dashing toward a row of open arches. Not in the nearest wall. Mashadar had come from that one.
Fumbling for the Void, Rand limped after him as fast as he could, but before they were completely across the floor, the lightnings fell again, a storm of silver arrows. The two of them darted through the archways pursued by the thunder of walls and floor collapsing behind them, by clouds of dust and a hail of stones.
Shoulders hunched and an arm across his face, Rand ran coughing through a broad room where trembling arches supported the ceiling and bits of stone rained down. He burst out into a street before he knew it, stumbling three steps before stopping. The pain in his side made him want to bend over, but he thought his legs might give way if he did. His wounded foot throbbed; it seemed a year ago that that red wire of Fire and Air had stabbed his heel. His rescuer stood watching him; covered with dust head to toe, the fellow managed to look a king.
"Who are you?" Rand asked again. "One of Taim's men? Or did you teach yourself? You can go to Caemlyn, you know, to the Black Tower. You don't have to live afraid of Aes Sedai." For some reason, saying that made him frown; he could not understand why.
"I have never been afraid of Aes Sedai," the man snapped, then drew a deep breath. "You probably should leave here now, but if you intend to stay and kill Sammael, you had better try thinking like him. You have shown you can. He always liked destroying a man in sight of one of that man's triumphs, if he could. Lacking that, somewhere the man had marked as his would do."
"The Waygate," Rand said slowly. If he could be said to. have marked anything in Shadar Logoth, it had to be the Waygate. "He's waiting near the Waygate. And he has traps set." Wards as well, it seemed, like those in Illian, to detect a man channeling. Sammael had planned this well.
The man laughed wryly. "You can find the way, it seems. If you're led by the hand. Try not to stumble. A great many plans will have to be relaid if you let yourself be killed now." Turning, he started across the street for an alleyway just ahead of them.
"Wait," Rand called. The. fellow kept on, not looking back. "Who are you? What plans?" The man vanished into the alley.
Rand teetered after him, but when he reached the mouth of the narrow alley, it was empty.*
Anubis: 2005-08-17
**Funny that the Dark One didn't think they were useless, since he brought them back. **
useless is perhaps the wrong word for it, but they have been degraded from free acting chosen to spies. Heres the thing. When your playing Chess, and you get a pawn to the other side of the board, you dont say "oh hey, i want a bishop, or a knight". No, you get the freaking queen. (btw thats my favorite way to win at chess, keep getting queens untill checkmate is accidental)
**Ishamael transmigrated before anyone else... to do what? To spend night and day training students for the Black Tower, while seemingly to ignore his position of importance? **
you cant see the usefullness of having Ishmael alive while noone else, including your own Chosen knows about it? And you assume because we havent seen ishmael in action that he isnt doing things? We have seen his pov what... twice? Im supposed to assume thats all he does because theres no proof of anything else?
Heres the thing. As far as im concened, untill YOU prove otherwise Ishmael controls the gholam. The gholam killed Fel at the end of Lord of Chaos. Of the forsaken, only Ishmael would take the ramblings of a philosopher to be a threat. Combine this with the fact that later we see the Gholam carrying out Ishmaels orders to kill Mat. Im combining the comment between Bors and the lady Shaine and the "he wants you dead as much as he wants her" comment to reach that conclusion. So ishmael was alive as early as Lord of Chaos, and probably earlier to have discovered Fel and realized that his writings were a threat. Wow, the hits keep on coming.
And im not trying to prove anything. If you think any of this can be proven then you have some serious issues. Im just trying to get the point across that it is indeed possible. This website is www.theoryland.com not www.provenfactsabout thewheeloftime.com
drz1649: 2005-08-17
disproof: Rand did not recognise Moridin when he helped him during the fight with Sammael in Shadar Logoth. it seems implausible to maintain that Ishy/Moridin would be maintaining a Mask of Mirrors every time he appears as Taim. though maybe he can do it with the TP - is it possible to wield both at once?
(have other non-DF's seen both Moridin and Taim? think some Aes Sedai - Nynaeve? - saw him at Ebou Dar, but none apart from that)
though it would explain the seeming incongruences over Taim's age, learning and behaviour, it just doesn't seem in character for Ishy to actually visibly take a powerful role in Randland affairs. he's a behind the scenes kind of guy, and - as many have pointed out - when he deviates from that behaviour things usually go very wrong for him.
I must admit, it's a seductive idea though. I think RJ is going to pull something special out of his hat to explain Taim, but I doubt it'll be this.
Callandor: 2005-08-17
**useless is perhaps the wrong word for it, but they have been degraded from free acting chosen to spies.**
And all the Forsaken haven't been degraded? Lanfear and Moghedien haven't? Graendal hasn't? They've all been brought in under control.
**Heres the thing. When your playing Chess, and you get a pawn to the other side of the board, you dont say "oh hey, i want a bishop, or a knight". No, you get the freaking queen. (btw thats my favorite way to win at chess, keep getting queens untill checkmate is accidental)**
Play any Chessmaster game when they get a pawn to the other side -- they do not always get a queen. Also, there are sometimes limits imposed in chess for the number of queens you can have (but that's generally house rules if people for some reason impliment them).
**you cant see the usefullness of having Ishmael alive while noone else, including your own Chosen knows about it? And you assume because we havent seen ishmael in action that he isnt doing things? We have seen his pov what... twice? Im supposed to assume thats all he does because theres no proof of anything else?**
We've seen his point of view 3 times: the Watcher, the Prologue to The Path of Daggers, and chapter 2 of The Path of Daggers.
And the "usefulness" of Moridin alive, with no one knowing of it? What is one of the first things that we know Moridin does? He gathers in two of the Forsaken directly under his leash. By this time, it's questionable whether he already knew of and had control of Osan'gar and Aran'gar, and then we know that soon after this he brings into line Graendal, and has helped eliminate Sammael. That's 5 out of 8 Forsaken (since you wouldn't count Moridin himself) directly under control very soon after we know he's shown up.
Moridin's purpose isn't to be secretive. He's purpose is to gather in the Forsaken and get them to stop screwing up and work to do evil things.
**Heres the thing. As far as im concened, until YOU prove otherwise Ishmael controls the gholam.**
Ok, can you just pick a more random claim?
**Combine this with the fact that later we see the Gholam carrying out Ishmaels orders to kill Mat.**
That was Sammael that ordered that gholam. Otherwise, him saying he would send "someone" to help with the Aes Sedai, makes no sense.
**Im combining the comment between Bors and the lady Shaine and the "he wants you dead as much as he wants her" comment to reach that conclusion. So ishmael was alive as early as Lord of Chaos, and probably earlier to have discovered Fel and realized that his writings were a threat. Wow, the hits keep on coming.**
No, not really. On the gholam in Ebou Dar, you are clearly wrong -- that was Sammael ordering it.
The gholam that killed Fel -- you can pick a random Forsaken out of your backside and you have as equal an arguement. We've all seen the Forsaken at one time or another be philisophical.
**disproof: Rand did not recognise Moridin when he helped him during the fight with Sammael in Shadar Logoth. it seems implausible to maintain that Ishy/Moridin would be maintaining a Mask of Mirrors every time he appears as Taim. though maybe he can do it with the TP - is it possible to wield both at once?**
Moridin bares basically no resemblance to Taim at all. He's too young for one (by a lot), and doesn't have the "hawk-nose" that Taim has, and also he is nearly as tall as Rand when Taim is around average height. It would have to be a Mask of Mirrors that he was using.
**(have other non-DF's seen both Moridin and Taim? think some Aes Sedai - Nynaeve? - saw him at Ebou Dar, but none apart from that)**
No, I believe you mean when Aviendha sees the gholam just before leaving. Moridin as far as I know has only been seen by the Forsaken, his servants, Darkfriends, and Rand (if you want to throw in the distinction of Black Ajah, maybe, but they are Darkfriends so I don't see the point).
**though it would explain the seeming incongruences over Taim's age, learning and behaviour, it just doesn't seem in character for Ishy to actually visibly take a powerful role in Randland affairs.**
However, all those characteristics can be shown as well, if Taim was taught by Ishamael.
Anubis: 2005-08-18
**disproof: Rand did not recognise Moridin when he helped him during the fight with Sammael in Shadar Logoth. it seems implausible to maintain that Ishy/Moridin would be maintaining a Mask of Mirrors every time he appears as Taim. though maybe he can do it with the TP - is it possible to wield both at once?**
that doesnt disprove anything. In order for someone to masquerade as Taim, a mask of mirrors would be mandatory. Too many people know what he looks like. The shaving of the beard comment is interesting simply because it is the kind of thing that would reveal a MoM. (huh... your face is smooth? but i see hair... OH NO). It could be a red herring, but its an interesting theory that has yet to be disproven dispite what some people may say.
Garayur: 2005-08-18
oh yes, here is some more disproof.
*"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.
"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order. And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions." The man said he was one of the Chosen, and no one was mad enough to make that claim unless it was true, yet he seemed to think al'Thor's belongings more important than his death, the killing incidental and not really necessary.* WH
Mappo: 2005-08-18
Anubis, Sammael controlled the gholam which was very close to killing Elayne in ACOS:
ACOS ch.15
(Carridin and Sammael talking):
""Great Master...." He worked his mouth to find moisture. "Great Master, there are witches ... Aes Sedai... here. I cannot be sure how many. If they hear a whisper...."
Waving him to silence, Sammael paced a few quick steps, three times up and back, hands clasped behind his back. He did not look worried, only ... considering. Finally he nodded. "I will send you ... someone ... to deal with these Aes Sedai." He barked a short laugh. "I almost wish I could see their faces. "
It's pretty clear that Sammael was talking about the gholam. We don't know who sent the gholam that killed Fel.
Anubis: 2005-08-18
Everyone has their off days....
Though I find it HIGHLY doubtfull that Sammael ordered Fel killed. Hell, Barthanes could have been Sammael, but that is still questionable. I find it more likely that the single Gholam is obeying multiple forsaken. Sammy and Ishy. Ishys prescence was very apparent in Ebou Dar at that time... though to be honest at this point im arguing more for the sake of arguing..
In my head theres a couple things that say YES Ishy controls the Gholam (at least part of the time) and a couple that say he doesnt know it exists.
Oh well, thats Ishy for you. Though my main point still stands in regard to the theory... Ishy ordered Fel dead (:P come up with another likely candidate) therefore ishy was active at least in LoC.
Anubis: 2005-08-19
**Play any Chessmaster game when they get a pawn to the other side -- they do not always get a queen.**
only other piece worth getting would be knight, and knights pwn in certian situations.
Laughingman: 2005-08-20
I'm still sticking with Taim as Taim, a high level dreadlord, but since tangents have already been wandered on. Is there a theoryland string on who killed Fel? I know the gholam killed him, but who ordered his death and who would have KNOWN to order his death? The teacher of the school a darkfriend perhaps? Just something tossed out there for fun.
JakOShadows: 2005-08-20
Anubis: I was just curious about one thing. If one forsaken gave a gholam a command, why would he go get a command from another forsaken. I think he would go back to his master and tell him the jobs done. Then he would be put back into his box. I don't think Ishmael would give away a gholam without a very good reason. And it is possible that Sammy sent the gholam to kill Mat, but it was sent to kill the Aes Sedai. And I don't see what interest he has in those Aes Sedai. At that point in the book, it seemed like he was more worried about the upcoming battle in which they would have no affect. He wouldn't waste a gholam on that. Rather, I think they were sent by someone else who's interests were being encroached upon by the Aes Sedai. I don't know who it would be, but Sammuel seems to not be involved with the Aes Sedai's plots.
Callandor: 2005-08-21
**Though I find it HIGHLY doubtfull that Sammael ordered Fel killed.**
I do too, my point was that you simply saying Ishamael ordered the gholam to kill Fel is unbased. It could've been any of the Forsaken, and while Ishamael does get bonus points for being a deep philosopher, 8 other Forsaken get even more bonus points, because we know they were alive at the time.
**I find it more likely that the single Gholam is obeying multiple forsaken.**
Well, the question is with the distance. Can a gholam Travel via a gateway? Unknown, and there have been quite a few debates about whether they might or might not be able to, but nothing terribly definitive. With the distances involved, and the apparent timing (very short) from Sammael saying he would send someone to deal with the Aes Sedai to when the gholam shows up, it's quite likely that there is at least 2 gholam.
However, it's all moot if gholam can Travel via gateways.
**Ishys prescence was very apparent in Ebou Dar at that time... though to be honest at this point im arguing more for the sake of arguing..**
Meh. :)
**Oh well, thats Ishy for you. Though my main point still stands in regard to the theory... Ishy ordered Fel dead (:P come up with another likely candidate) therefore ishy was active at least in LoC.**
As I've said, you can pick from Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage, Graendal, Sammael, Moghedien (yes, Moghedien! ;)), Osan'gar, or Aran'gar and they all have a better claim than Ishamael for the soul reason that we know they were alive at the time Fel was killed. Ishamael is questionable. You'd have to do more than simply say "He may have ordered it." Indeed, it's a cool canidate for the person who ordered the gholam (and as I'm sure I've said before, I personally wouldn't mind Ishamael back by Lord of Chaos -- I just don't see that in anything we've been given so far), but that's not explaining anything.
(Not to mention, it would place Ishamael at the earliest, active around the time of Dumai's Wells, way after Taim is in the Black Tower. Hardly proof for this.)
**only other piece worth getting would be knight, and knights pwn in certian situations.**
Just goes to show your original assertion is wrong -- you don't always go for the Queen; you don't always go for the big and powerful when the useful are needed.
**If one forsaken gave a gholam a command, why would he go get a command from another forsaken. I think he would go back to his master and tell him the jobs done.**
Well, it could be that Sammael came upon the gholam while it was doing a mission, and ordered it to do another mission. RJ has said that the Forsaken can order ordinary Fades around (not Shaidar Haran, as we've seen), and they will do exactly what they say due to what the Dark One has given them, and he strongly implied that the gholam were the same way. Could be that the gholam need to finish an order or it could be that the order at hand, the most pressing one (or closest), takes supremicy.
Or it could be there are two gholam ;)
**And I don't see what interest he has in those Aes Sedai. At that point in the book, it seemed like he was more worried about the upcoming battle in which they would have no affect. He wouldn't waste a gholam on that.**
Sammael was after the Ebou Dar stash, and Carridin and Mili Skane were trying to locate it for him. They were being interfered by Elayne and Nynaeve and co. (the Aes Sedai) in their search for the Bowl of the Winds. Carridin complained, and Sammael said he would send "someone" to deal with the Aes Sedai (quote above).
Sammael was after the Ebou Dar stash the same reason Moghedien and any other Chosen would be -- possible angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal. And we know that Sammael got involved in it, since some of his lackies got some of the stash, got it to Illian (where Greandal's angreal came from -- originally in the stash, you see), and where he got the binder for Sevanna. Sammael was focused on the incoming battle with Rand, but if he found the right things in the stash, he could've slaughtered Rand easily -- but he was interfered. Hence, the gholam.
mako0424: 2005-08-22
I always assumed that Sammael had been commanding the gholam whilst in Ebou Dar because of the referejnces to the cache of angreal and what not, but i cant remember my chronolgy well, but i thought Herid Fel had been killed before Sammael's death in which case it does bear further investigation, because in that scenario i always assumed that Ishy/Moridin had Fel murdered because Fel had come close to some philosophical point of interest which would possibly help Rand figure something out about the Last Battle and what not.
I assume that Moridin could prolly order Sammy or someone else to order the gholam, you know ranks of heirarchy and stuff, but then you have to wonder who controls gholam now, and what was it Fel figured out.
I believe Rand, with Min's help, will figure it out near the end, but tgell no one, ie. Rand's Death will be directly tied to the existence of the Dark One, so Rand has to die for the Dark Oe to be defeated, but he can be transmigrated or something else, i dunno, but you understand my point.
Anubis: 2005-08-23
**Just goes to show your original assertion is wrong -- you don't always go for the Queen; you don't always go for the big and powerful when the useful are needed. **
I never intended that you go for the "most powerfull". And besides, the most powerfull piece is always the most usefull one. Ishmael played several roles. Deulist, Manipulator, Assassin, General. And he was successfull in all of them. The only time he lost was when he went toe to toe with the Dragon Reborn, and even that was nothing more then a minor setback. Seems to me that Ishmael, who already has multiple eyes in all of our main characters places, would be a MUCH more usefull (or powerfull) piece.
BTW RJ and Ishy both seem to have a taoist view of war.
Anubis: 2005-08-23
XD Our argument so far:
Callandor: Well you cant prove that he was alive
Anubis: Well you cant prove he wasnt
Callandor: Well that makes YOU wrong
Anubis: No YOUR wrong.
Callandor: Infant
Anubis: Jerk
Callandor: BARRRIER THEORY
Anubis: STUPID
XD we seem to do this in every thread.
William Seeker: 2005-08-23
That makes sense. In the Lord of Chaos, it's mentioned that Taim is just about as strong as Rand. Ishy would defenitly be at least near as strong as Rand.
Callandor: 2005-08-23
**I never intended that you go for the "most powerfull". And besides, the most powerfull piece is always the most usefull one.**
What?! You did exactly that:
**Heres the thing. When your playing Chess, and you get a pawn to the other side of the board, you dont say "oh hey, i want a bishop, or a knight". No, you get the freaking queen. (btw thats my favorite way to win at chess, keep getting queens untill checkmate is accidental)**
To which you then said in another reply (after I questioned you on it):
**only other piece worth getting would be knight, and knights pwn in certian situations.**
So quit generalizing. The most powerful piece isn't always the most useful. It certainly is helpful, but not always the most useful.
**XD Our argument so far:
Callandor: Well you cant prove that he was alive
Anubis: Well you cant prove he wasnt**
Well, I'd really like to point out how I don't have to prove that he wasn't alive -- we saw him die in The Dragon Reborn, and don't see him till A Crown of Swords, nor any actions that give off any hints of an earlier arrival. I'm sorry, you're the one making this claim -- the burden of proof is on you. The simplest answer is: Ishamael was dead from the end of The Dragon Reborn till early A Crown of Swords. Want me to believe elsewise? Prove it to me. Otherwise, you're claims is useless.
Dannil Lewin: 2005-08-25
Another point in favor of this theory I don't think anyone has mentioned yet comes when Moridin is contemplating the Shah'ra (I think that's the spelling) game, especially the fisher piece that resembles Rand. At the end of the scene he cracks up thinking how hard it is to lose a game when you play both sides. If Taim is Moridin/Ishamael he is very well placed to play both sides of the game. In that same scene he comments on how Rand is moving at his direction. Rand definately takes at least some advice from Taim, and he never did that with Dashiva so it can't be through him that he is being controlled...I know that if Taim was simply a proxy for Moridin this could happen too, but I like this Taim as Moridin/Ishy theory.
Callandor: 2005-08-26
**If Taim is Moridin/Ishamael he is very well placed to play both sides of the game.**
But Moridin doesn't have to be Taim to control both sides. With the power he had then, he had Osan'gar (with Rand), Aran'gar (with Salidar Aes Sedai), Moghedien (seemingly random places), and Cyndane (unknown) directly under thumb. That's just as far as we know -- he could've easily had Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana under control as well at that point, and Graendal was just the final piece.
Moridin, by controlling the Forsaken who are in both sides of many conflicts, controls both sides of the game. Not to mention the Darkfriends he would have to draw on for control as well.
**Rand definately takes at least some advice from Taim, and he never did that with Dashiva so it can't be through him that he is being controlled...I know that if Taim was simply a proxy for Moridin this could happen too, but I like this Taim as Moridin/Ishy theory.**
At the time, the only previous time Rand met with Taim was at Dumai's Wells. From then, to The Path of Daggers, they do not interact -- and in The Path of Daggers, they do not meet until near the very end of the book, and haven't met again since.
Rand took as little advice and "control" from Taim because he was never truely around the man.
Traveller: 2005-08-28
Another thing that could back you up in the whole Ishy is Taim thing is:
"Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his . . . anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison."
This shows that Moridin had been using lots and lots of the TP in order to gain the saa so quickly. If he was masquerading as Taim, he would be using the TP constantly to avoid Rand noticing him weaving the mirror thing to disguise himself.
Callandor: 2005-08-28
**This shows that Moridin had been using lots and lots of the TP in order to gain the saa so quickly. If he was masquerading as Taim, he would be using the TP constantly to avoid Rand noticing him weaving the mirror thing to disguise himself.**
Or he could weave an tied of inverted Mask of Mirrors. Or, it could be that Taim is just Taim, and Moridin has been doing other things.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-08-31
I just found something else that is a good indication of Taim being Ishamael, while I was rereading The Path of Daggers, in preperation for Knife of Dreams.
Following the attack on the Palace, Taim comes to check on Rand and the other Asha'man that Rand chose after Dumai's Wells. He also comes to report that Gedwyn, Rochaid, Torval and Kisman have deserted.
At this point, Rand proceeds to shock Taim.
"Rand smiled at him, a hard feral smile. 'Add Corlan Dashiva to your list of deserters, Taim. Next time I visit the Black Tower, I expect to see his head on your Traitor's Tree.'
'Dashiva?' Taim snarled, his eyes widening in surprise. 'It will be as you say. When next you visit the Black Tower.' That quickly, he recovered himself, all polished stone and poise once more."
Now, it is a well accepted fact that Taim is a darkfriend of some sort. And with a Forsaken posing as a student, it would stand to reason that Taim was well aware of who Dashiva really was. Also, Taim never raises anybody to Asha'man unless he is afraid of him, Logain, or else they are darkfriends, his little coterie.
Now, no matter how well you channel, nobody can order the death of a Forsaken unless they are sure that no retribution will be brought from the Dark One. The only person in that situation at this point is Moridin, who clearly is Ishamael.
Further, quite a few Forsaken have been rounded up and made to serve Moridin, and it would stand to reason that Dashiva was one of those, being brought back from the dead after being freed and all.
In that situation, it would stand to reason that Dashiva takes orders from Taim/Ishamael. Were he ordered to stay close to Rand and not to harm him, Taim would indeed be shocked to learn that he had been disobeyed. Thus, the punishment for disobeying is that Taim will not even try to save him, and Dashiva's life is forfeit.
I know that Callandor is going to like taking this one apart, but I should very much enjoy reading that. Good luck.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-01
Flinn: I don't see Taim demonstrating he has power. Rather, I see it as he is afraid of what will happen when he's caught in between a rock in hard spot since he can't kill a forsaken. And I think Rand kind of knows what's going on from his smile. So his anger was to cover to make it look like he'll get it done. Not that he really would.
Callandor: 2005-09-01
**Now, it is a well accepted fact that Taim is a darkfriend of some sort. And with a Forsaken posing as a student, it would stand to reason that Taim was well aware of who Dashiva really was.**
Hardly. We've examples of Moghedien in Liandrin's group acting as a servant (none of them knew until she showed herself), Mesaana in the Tower (Alviarin knows she's in the Tower but does not know who she is, and Lanfear and Asmodean in the Waste (all the Darkfriends thought they were nothing more than other Darkfriends, though higher up than thenselves). The main theme of the Shadow is: "The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing." It's a major advantage if Darkfriends are exposed -- but a major disadvantage of them working together.
**Also, Taim never raises anybody to Asha'man unless he is afraid of him, Logain, or else they are darkfriends, his little coterie.**
How is this an indication that Taim is nothing more than a Darkfriend as well? Furthermore, if Ishamael was Taim, why would he raise Logain if he was afraid of him? Do you see Ishamael being afraid of Logain? Maybe Logain being afraid of Ishamael, but not the other way around.
**Now, no matter how well you channel, nobody can order the death of a Forsaken unless they are sure that no retribution will be brought from the Dark One. The only person in that situation at this point is Moridin, who clearly is Ishamael.**
Taim puts the name on the list, and what would he care if he didn't know Dashiva was Osan'gar? He wouldn't think he was ordering the potential death of a Forsaken then. Furthermore, if Taim did know, he could put the order out so as not to blow his cover, and figure that Dashiva, a Forsaken, could fend for himself.
**Further, quite a few Forsaken have been rounded up and made to serve Moridin, and it would stand to reason that Dashiva was one of those, being brought back from the dead after being freed and all.**
Indeed he was rounded up by Moridin (shown by him being at the Forsaken Coffee Hour in Winter's Heart).
But again, where is this any proof that Ishamael is Taim? Osan'gar can be rounded up like any other Forsaken, and it doesn't point a lick towards Ishamael being Taim.
**In that situation, it would stand to reason that Dashiva takes orders from Taim/Ishamael. Were he ordered to stay close to Rand and not to harm him, Taim would indeed be shocked to learn that he had been disobeyed. Thus, the punishment for disobeying is that Taim will not even try to save him, and Dashiva's life is forfeit.**
The thing is: Dashiva wouldn't disobey Ishamael. Why do you think he went to the Cleansing in the first place? Fear of what Ishamael would do if he didn't.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Crouching again, he bit his lip. This forest was a very dangerous place, more so than he had expected, and nowhere for a genius. But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him. The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning. He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that he was the Great Lord. Moridin would find out somehow if he fled, and kill him. Worse, if al'Thor succeeded, the Great Lord might decide to kill both of them, and Osan'gar as well. He did not care whether they died, but he did very much about himself.**
If Ishamael was Taim, and gave an order to Dashiva to watch over and protect Rand, Dashiva would not break this order for fear of retribution. He simply would not have attacked Rand.
Furthermore, since Ishamael more than likely knows this, he wouldn't be shocked by it rather more likely he'd be angry over it. After all, Osan'gar had just disobeyed and nearly killed Rand and disrupted all his plans. For what?
And do you see Ishamael letting him live if he did give such an order? Why would Osan'gar be at the Forsaken Coffee Hour in Winter's Heart then, instead of dead?
The problem is you're going off the assumption that Taim knows Dashiva is Osan'gar. That is not known, we have examples that fully support Taim not knowing at all, and it would easily explain his actions.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-01
JackOShadows:
Okay, even if it was just a slip, then why would Taim actually mark him off as a Traitor to be killed on sight?
We have seen on multiple occasions that Darkfriends and Forsaken are far more afraid of the Dark One, than they are of Rand. They say this during their meetings pretty frequently.
Now that I look for them, I see them pretty frequently. Another example of this is in Winter's Heart on page 360.
"Crossing the striped floor, Moridin laid a hand on Osan'gar's shoulder, his smile made more ominous by the saa. The shorter man swallowed, and gave a wavering smile in return. 'It is well you've never considered how to remove the Great Lord's shadow," Moridin said quietly. How long had he been outside? Osan'gar's smile grew more sickly. "Al'thor is not as wise as you. Tell them, Cyndane.'
[...]
'Killed?'Moridin moved his hands as though weighing something. 'If it comes to that, yes,' he said finally. 'But finding him is no problem. When he touches the Choedan Kal, you will know where he is. And you will go there and take him . Or kill him, if necessary. The Nae'blis has spoken.'
'As the Nae'blis commands," Cyndane said eagerly, bowing her head, and echoes of her ran around the room, though Aran'gar sounded sullen, Osan'gar desperate, and Graendal oddly thoughtful.'"
At this point, Osan'gar knows what is going to happen to him if he fails. He is well aware of the order set on him, and knows that none can interject, except Moridin and Taim.
Since Taim is apparently unwilling to respond to a Forsaken, that means that he has orders from a higher ranking Forsaken, like Moridin, or he is Moridin.
Because Osan'gar's death order is sent out as soon as Taim returns, that means that he had no time to get orders from Moridin.
That leaves only one conclusion.
And I really do want to hear your thoughts Callandor, they are generally pretty insightful.
Traveller: 2005-09-02
Yeah , i think that the quote looks more like Taim knows who Dashiva is, and is terrified of condemning him to death, so he puts on a brave face kinda thing.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-02
Okay, I thought that it was obvious that Taim knew Dashiva was Osan'gar. If you need further proof, I will provide the obvious one. The spark.
Dashiva obviously had the spark inborn. Taim knows how to recognize that in a male.
I don't suppose that you need to be led to the conclusion.
Callandor: 2005-09-03
**Okay, even if it was just a slip, then why would Taim actually mark him off as a Traitor to be killed on sight?**
Again, this depends on if Taim knew Dashiva was Osan'gar. I gave 3 distinct examples of Darkfriends working in direct contact with Forsaken, and either didn't know the people originally were Forsaken (Lanfear and Asmodean, as well as Moghedien originally), or didn't know the total extent of their cover (Mesaana).
If Taim didn't know Dashiva was Osan'gar you have your answer right there: he was simply following an order to maintain his cover because he thought Dashiva was nothing more than another renegade.
**At this point, Osan'gar knows what is going to happen to him if he fails. He is well aware of the order set on him, and knows that none can interject, except Moridin and Taim.**
Osan'gar is far more likely looking desperate since he was supposed to watch over Rand, and not attack him, rather than an order by the M'Hael of whom he does not truely follow.
**Because Osan'gar's death order is sent out as soon as Taim returns, that means that he had no time to get orders from Moridin.
That leaves only one conclusion.**
No, it does not. It leaves a multitude:
1. Taim was ignorant of Dashiva being Osan'gar (a very big favorite).
2. Taim simply getting too far out of line, and thinking quite highly of himself.
3. Taim following direct orders from Rand and only going through with them to maintain his cover.
4. Taim posting the order figuring Dashiva could handle himself.
5. The far-flung option, which you seem to think is the only one, that Taim is Ishamael.
Callandor: 2005-09-06
**Okay, I thought that it was obvious that Taim knew Dashiva was Osan'gar. If you need further proof, I will provide the obvious one. The spark.
Dashiva obviously had the spark inborn. Taim knows how to recognize that in a male.
I don't suppose that you need to be led to the conclusion.**
How would Dashiva have the spark inborn? He's Osan'gar, so it would be impossible to say whether he had the spark inborn or was a learner in the first place.
In any case, Taim mentioned that Jahar had the spark inborn and made it to be a case of importance or rarity (which it is) -- he didn't mention anything about Dashiva.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-06
Okay, this took a while to write, and it had to be done elsewhere first then copied over. I know that you have argued the point too long to concede it Callandor, but you no longer have any arguments.
** In any case, Taim mentioned that Jahar had the spark inborn and made it to be a case of importance or rarity (which it is) -- he didn't mention anything about Dashiva. **
That was the point that I was getting to. If he didn't mention anything about Dashiva's spark, then there had to be a reason. If he was told not to reveal it to Rand, then that alone sets Dashiva out from all others.
Also, #2 seems incredibly improbable. Even if we were to assume that he were not Ishamael, and was simply taught by Ish, then what are the odds that he will let Taim het out of control? He doesn't let actual Forsaken far out of his control. Also, we have never seen any character overstep his bound with the Forsaken (Barring of course Fain).
As for #3, Taim has already blown his cover as soon as Rand checks the list of Traitors. He listed all of Rand's Asha'man as deserters. So assuming that Rand is going to check the list of Traitors, which is why he adds Dashiva so you say, Rand would be like, "Blood and ashes Taim, why did you list Morr, Flinn, etc... as traitors?"
As far as #4 goes, it is possible, but only if it were paired with another reason. Keep in mind that if they are listed as a Traitor, then all Asha'man hunt them. If a few dozen come upon a Forsaken, the Forsaken can either flee or die. No other choice, and Taim is intelligent enough to know that.
** **Also, Taim never raises anybody to Asha'man unless he is afraid of him, Logain, or else they are darkfriends, his little coterie.**
How is this an indication that Taim is nothing more than a Darkfriend as well? Furthermore, if Ishamael was Taim, why would he raise Logain if he was afraid of him? Do you see Ishamael being afraid of Logain? Maybe Logain being afraid of Ishamael, but not the other way around. **
Well, when Logain shows up, Taim has a few choices.
He can attempt to kill Logain. Logain may not have hundreds of years of experience, like Ishamael, but he is almost as strong, if not as strong as Ish/Taim. Even supposing that he kills Logain, he has to explain why he killed another man who has channeled for a long time, that came seeking the amnesty.
He can refuse Logain the dragon, which Logain would not have settled for, resulting in the same situation as if Taim tried to kill him.
Or, he can give Logain the Dragon and be done with it. No harm, and Rand doesn't have to know anything about it.
That doesn't seem like a hard choice
** **Now, no matter how well you channel, nobody can order the death of a Forsaken unless they are sure that no retribution will be brought from the Dark One. The only person in that situation at this point is Moridin, who clearly is Ishamael.**
Taim puts the name on the list, and what would he care if he didn't know Dashiva was Osan'gar? He wouldn't think he was ordering the potential death of a Forsaken then. Furthermore, if Taim did know, he could put the order out so as not to blow his cover, and figure that Dashiva, a Forsaken, could fend for himself.**
It isn't even a question of whether or not Dashiva can fend for himself, which he certainly could not if a dozen Asha'man came for him. It is a matter of the Dark One. The Dark One would not take too kindly to having one of his Forsaken, that he went through all the trouble of transmigrating, to be killed by some uppty ex-False Dragon. And Taim knows that. Even the Forsaken don't want to do anything that might be construed as Treason by the Dark One. That terrifies them more than death. By far
09/06/2005||21:44:56 guessjeremy: ** **Now, no matter how well you channel, nobody can order the death of a Forsaken unless they are sure that no retribution will be brought from the Dark One. The only person in that situation at this point is Moridin, who clearly is Ishamael.**
Taim puts the name on the list, and what would he care if he didn't know Dashiva was Osan'gar? He wouldn't think he was ordering the potential death of a Forsaken then. Furthermore, if Taim did know, he could put the order out so as not to blow his cover, and figure that Dashiva, a Forsaken, could fend for himself. **
It isn't even a question of whether or not Dashiva can fend for himself, which he certainly could not if a dozen Asha'man came for him. It is a matter of the Dark One. The Dark One would not take too kindly to having one of his Forsaken, that he went through all the trouble of transmigrating, to be killed by some uppty ex-False Dragon. And Taim knows that. Even the Forsaken don't want to do anything that might be construed as Treason by the Dark One. That terrifies them more than death. By far**
**Further, quite a few Forsaken have been rounded up and made to serve Moridin, and it would stand to reason that Dashiva was one of those, being brought back from the dead after being freed and all.**
Indeed he was rounded up by Moridin (shown by him being at the Forsaken Coffee Hour in Winter's Heart).
But again, where is this any proof that Ishamael is Taim? Osan'gar can be rounded up like any other Forsaken, and it doesn't point a lick towards Ishamael being Taim. **
Well, when Dashiva is first chosen out, Taim protests quite hardily. Of course Ish wants somebody to keep an eye on Rand, but he also wants to keep an eye on Osan'gar. This would explain both Dashiva's being risen to Asha'man, as well as why Taim didn't want him to go.
09/06/2005||21:47:57 guessjeremy: **
**Further, quite a few Forsaken have been rounded up and made to serve Moridin, and it would stand to reason that Dashiva was one of those, being brought back from the dead after being freed and all.**
Indeed he was rounded up by Moridin (shown by him being at the Forsaken Coffee Hour in Winter's Heart).
But again, where is this any proof that Ishamael is Taim? Osan'gar can be rounded up like any other Forsaken, and it doesn't point a lick towards Ishamael being Taim. **
Well, when Dashiva is first chosen out, Taim protests quite hardily. Of course Ish wants somebody to keep an eye on Rand, but he also wants to keep an eye on Osan'gar. This would explain both Dashiva's being risen to Asha'man, as well as why Taim didn't want him to go.
** The thing is: Dashiva wouldn't disobey Ishamael. Why do you think he went to the Cleansing in the first place? Fear of what Ishamael would do if he didn't. **
I know it may be hard to accept, but the Dark One's orders were to let the Lord of Chaos rule. He wants Rand alive. Thus, he not only disobeyed the Nae'blis, but the Dark One too. He was at the Cleansing, and didn't back off when he was losing the battle like the others did for one simple reason. Moridin probably told him very simply, that the only way to redeem himself, was to stop Rand, and not to come back if he hadn't. That is why Dashiva was the only one dead.
** Furthermore, since Ishamael more than likely knows this, he wouldn't be shocked by it rather more likely he'd be angry over it. After all, Osan'gar had just disobeyed and nearly killed Rand and disrupted all his plans. For what? **
Excellent point. Moridin would be angry. That is why he snarled when he heard that Dashiva turned renegade. Not only did Moridin no longer have an Asha'man spy among Rand's ranks, but he almost killed Rand, and disobeyed Moridin's direct order, as well as the Dark One's. That would cover the shock and the anger.
Okay, I think that about covers all of your points.
Callandor: 2005-09-08
**That was the point that I was getting to. If he didn't mention anything about Dashiva's spark, then there had to be a reason. If he was told not to reveal it to Rand, then that alone sets Dashiva out from all others.**
Ok, answer me this one question:
Can you prove that Taim knew Dashiva was Osan'gar?
Guess what? No -- you can't. You're taking it as a foregone conclusion, and completely not admitting that it is not proven at all.
Taim had to have a reason? Yeah, he does -- like if he never knew about Dashiva being a sparker, since he more than likely isn't since he's a transmigrated Forsaken.
**Also, #2 seems incredibly improbable. Even if we were to assume that he were not Ishamael, and was simply taught by Ish, then what are the odds that he will let Taim het out of control? He doesn't let actual Forsaken far out of his control. Also, we have never seen any character overstep his bound with the Forsaken (Barring of course Fain).**
Yeah, it's unlikely, but it's still a possiblity. See, unlike you, I try to present all options -- or at least as many as I know of or could think of.
**As for #3, Taim has already blown his cover as soon as Rand checks the list of Traitors. He listed all of Rand's Asha'man as deserters. So assuming that Rand is going to check the list of Traitors, which is why he adds Dashiva so you say, Rand would be like, "Blood and ashes Taim, why did you list Morr, Flinn, etc... as traitors?"**
Has Rand checked the list? Surprisingly -- no!
**As far as #4 goes, it is possible, but only if it were paired with another reason. Keep in mind that if they are listed as a Traitor, then all Asha'man hunt them. If a few dozen come upon a Forsaken, the Forsaken can either flee or die. No other choice, and Taim is intelligent enough to know that.**
Yeah, which is why he would also be intelligent enough to know that any Forsaken isn't going to be like non-Forsaken people, and just go try to live a normal life again or whatever they try to do.
Besides, again, Taim (according to you) knew Dashiva was a Forsaken.
By the way, lovely that you completely ignored option 1, and didn't say anything on it.
**He can attempt to kill Logain. Logain may not have hundreds of years of experience, like Ishamael, but he is almost as strong, if not as strong as Ish/Taim. Even supposing that he kills Logain, he has to explain why he killed another man who has channeled for a long time, that came seeking the amnesty.**
Or he can kill him in his sleep, remove and destroy the body, and say Logain jumped ship.
It's not like Taim/Ishamael would have to kill Logain in the front of every Asha'man.
**Or, he can give Logain the Dragon and be done with it. No harm, and Rand doesn't have to know anything about it.
That doesn't seem like a hard choice**
And it shouldn't be. But Logain makes Taim out to be not willing to risk not raising Taim, or being afraid of Logain. Ishamael would be neither of these. It's out of character.
**It isn't even a question of whether or not Dashiva can fend for himself, which he certainly could not if a dozen Asha'man came for him. It is a matter of the Dark One. The Dark One would not take too kindly to having one of his Forsaken, that he went through all the trouble of transmigrating, to be killed by some uppty ex-False Dragon. And Taim knows that. Even the Forsaken don't want to do anything that might be construed as Treason by the Dark One. That terrifies them more than death. By far**
1. Where would a dozen Asha'man find Dashiva, when we the reader had no clue where he was until he showed back up at the Cleansing (ignoring the Forsaken Coffee hour, for obvious reasons)? C'mon! It's not like the Forsaken walk around with beacons attached to them. Furthermore -- Dashiva knows how to hid himself, all the Forsaken do.
2. The Dark One transmigrated a man who overdosed on the One Power -- I doubt he'd care how Osan'gar died, as long as he can return since the Dark One has few resources.
3. How does Taim know that? Again, there is the entire possiblity that Taim is nothing more than a Darkfriend, never knew of Dashiva, and was simply doing what he was told. How the hell are you being so certain in these matters?
4. How would Dashiva being killed be treason? That's not treason -- that's dying.
**Well, when Dashiva is first chosen out, Taim protests quite hardily. Of course Ish wants somebody to keep an eye on Rand, but he also wants to keep an eye on Osan'gar. This would explain both Dashiva's being risen to Asha'man, as well as why Taim didn't want him to go.**
Look at the book:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 2 - The Butcher's Yard
"He will do," Rand said, but he did not sound sure himself.
"Dashiva is gaining his strength rapidly, but his head is in the clouds often as not. Even when it isn't, he is not always entirely there. Maybe he's just a daydreamer, and maybe the taint on saidin is touching his brain already. Better for you to chose Torval or Rochaid or—"
Taim's opposition seemed to sweep away Rand's uncertainty. "I said Dashiva will do. Tell him he's to come with me, then turn the prisoners over to the Wise Ones and go. I don't intend to stand here all day arguing. Perrin, ready everyone to move. Find me when they are." Without another word he strode off, Min clinging to his arm, and Nandera and Sulin like shadows. Taim's dark eyes glittered; then he was stalking away himself, shouting for Gedwyn and Rochaid, Torval and Kisman. Black-coated men came running.**
Taim's opposition is short because Rand made it short -- he clearly wanted one of his 4 by Rand. Once again, how is the situation any different than if Taim is nothing more than a Darkfriend and completely ignorant of Dashiva?
You try to make this seem sealing for Ishamael, when it's nothing of the sort.
**I know it may be hard to accept, but the Dark One's orders were to let the Lord of Chaos rule. He wants Rand alive. Thus, he not only disobeyed the Nae'blis, but the Dark One too. He was at the Cleansing, and didn't back off when he was losing the battle like the others did for one simple reason. Moridin probably told him very simply, that the only way to redeem himself, was to stop Rand, and not to come back if he hadn't. That is why Dashiva was the only one dead.**
1. I know it may be hard to accept, but the Nae'blis clearly gave permission for Rand to be killed if needed. Useless objection.
2. Funny how Dashiva mentions no other orders by Moridin in his point of view at the Cleansing.
3. At the Forsaken Coffee Hour, after the attack on Rand, there isn't any reference or remark or gesture or anything to signify an order for redeeming nor the need for one.
**Excellent point. Moridin would be angry. That is why he snarled when he heard that Dashiva turned renegade. Not only did Moridin no longer have an Asha'man spy among Rand's ranks, but he almost killed Rand, and disobeyed Moridin's direct order, as well as the Dark One's. That would cover the shock and the anger.**
But the thing you miss entirely is this:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Crouching again, he bit his lip. This forest was a very dangerous place, more so than he had expected, and nowhere for a genius. But the fact remained that Moridin terrified him. The man had always terrified him, from the very beginning. He had been mad with power before they were sealed into the Bore, and since they had been freed, he seemed to think that he was the Great Lord. Moridin would find out somehow if he fled, and kill him. Worse, if al'Thor succeeded, the Great Lord might decide to kill both of them, and Osan'gar as well. He did not care whether they died, but he did very much about himself.**
Dashiva would not break an order made by Moridin.
You ignored this point entirely.
**Okay, I think that about covers all of your points.**
I assure you, it does not.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-09
** Can you prove that Taim knew Dashiva was Osan'gar?
Guess what? No -- you can't. You're taking it as a foregone conclusion, and completely not admitting that it is not proven at all. **
No, much like in most situations, it cannot be proven, however I can present evidence.
Apparently, no matter how much evidence I show you, you aren't accepting it. However, I will review all of the evidence, just so you can see how much you are ignoring.
Dashiva had the Spark inborn. I understand your reluctance concerning this issue, but it is a very good possibility, and for the answer to that, we will have to wait for RJ to begin answering our questions again. However, as it cannot be proven either way, we must refer to that pesky thing called evidence.
Taim never raises anybody to Asha'man unless he is afraid of him, Logain, or else they are darkfriends, his little coterie.
In this situation, that must mean that Taim knows that Dashiva is a darkfriend at least. You could also opt for the fear option. However, that would be more detrimental to your argument, and as such, I am going to assume the former.
However, Taim treats Dashiva differently than he does the other, normal, Asha'man darkfriends. I assume that you need proof of this, as you need proof of everything, no matter how obvious.
The only proof necessary for that claim is when Rand chose his Asha'man to accompany him. Taim tells Rand to choose any full Asha'man. Rand, using Ta'veren, points randomly to Dashiva. Taim is clearly upset by this, and asks Rand to choose anybody else.
By doing this, Taim shows that, although he wants to keep an eye on Rand, he also wants to keep Dashiva close to him. He doesn't care who else goes with Rand, so long as one of Taim's loyal Asha'man accompany Rand. This shows, as I said, that Dashiva is set apart from all other Asha'man.
You have said that Osan'gar wouldn't disobey Ishamael, but he did. That isn't even up for dispute, because he tried to kill Rand. Now, killing Rand is accepted only if there is a good reason for him to die; such as Rand possibly cleansing the Source. However, trying to kill him just because he is bothering you, or because of a guilty conscience is not an acceptable reason.
I know that you are going to try arguing that point as well, so I will forestall you. Robert Jordan told us why Dashiva attacked Rand.
“Question:
One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osangar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."
Robert Jordan Answers:
Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.”
Now, upon learning of a Chosen disobeying not only the Dark One, but also your direct order. In that situation, I would be snarling too. I would also be shocked upon learning of this. Which perfectly describes Taim's reaction upon learning of Dashiva's attack.
Also, like I said, were Rand to check the list of Traitors, Rand would know right away that Taim had added the Asha'man that Rand kept with him. So why would he add Dashiva?
He wouldn't do it assuming that a Forsaken can take care of himself, because there is no reason at all to do it. Taim doesn't need to maintain his cover, because he has already blown it.
And no, option 2 is not possible. No Forsaken or Darkfriend oversteps his bounds. Nobody will even mislead in the Dark One's name. And Darkfriends are terrified that they will offend a Forsaken. Lady Shiane is a perfect example of this. She is relatively powerful as far as non-channelers go. However, when a Forsaken tells her to make an Aes Sedai's visit as unpleasant as possible, she is so afraid that Moridin might take it amiss, that she goes harder than she strictly has to on them. And even Channelers don't want to offend the Dark One, no matter how they can channel. They are more terrified of the Dark One, than of death.
No, Taim cannot kill Logain. It is very simply that Logain has established a base of power. He already has people who will speak up, and say, “But he wasn't saying that he wanted to leave. He kept saying that Taim and his students are not to be trusted. Now he is dead. Hmmmm... too complicated for me to figure out what is going on.”
It isn't necessarily a fear of killing Logain that I am referring to. I mean to say, a fear of what will happen if he tries to. He runs many risks by not raising Logain, and very few by raising him. It would be very much like Ishamael to see this situation, and decide that it is not worth it to keep Logain from being raised.
** 1. Where would a dozen Asha'man find Dashiva, when we the reader had no clue where he was until he showed back up at the Cleansing (ignoring the Forsaken Coffee hour, for obvious reasons)? C'mon! It's not like the Forsaken walk around with beacons attached to them. Furthermore -- Dashiva knows how to hid himself, all the Forsaken do. **
Asha'man go out hunting for those who have been declared Traitors. So wouldn't it then follow that were they to come across Dashiva, they would attempt to kill him? To be fair, Asha'man see more of the world than we do, because there are more of them, and they go out to every corner of the continent.
** 1. I know it may be hard to accept, but the Nae'blis clearly gave permission for Rand to be killed if needed. Useless objection. **
He gave permission for Rand to be killed, if necessary, and only then when it serves a higher purpose. Once again, guilty conscience, and annoyance is not an acceptable reason to kill Rand. Useless objection ;-)
** 2. Funny how Dashiva mentions no other orders by Moridin in his point of view at the Cleansing. **
Why would he?
** 3. At the Forsaken Coffee Hour, after the attack on Rand, there isn't any reference or remark or gesture or anything to signify an order for redeeming nor the need for one. **
Osan'gar is far more troubled than the others. Hence why he said, “As the Nae'blis commands” desperately
And the reason for redeeming has already been established. He tried to kill Rand for a trivial and mundane reason.
** Dashiva would not break an order made by Moridin. **
He already did. It was something that was shown to us in the story. Not something that was alluded to, nor something that was implied. We saw him disobey Moridin's order. This isn't even something that would matter in the Taim/Moridin connection. Osan'gar was rounded up by Moridin and told to obey Taim. By disobeying Taim, he disobeys Moridin.
** I assure you, it does not. **
Not if you ignore everything that I say, then it doesn't. I meant that it covers everything on the condition that you paid attention. I thought that was implied.
charkorik: 2005-09-13
Being the leader of an army doesn't seem like Ishamael's style. He is more of the advisor type. Somebody who would pretend to be giving good advice, while actually leading the advisee to make poor choices.
Anubis: 2005-09-13
** Being the leader of an army doesn't seem like Ishamael's style. He is more of the advisor type. Somebody who would pretend to be giving good advice, while actually leading the advisee to make poor choices. **
Ishamael is whatever the hell he wants to be. That is why he is Nae Bliss. He has had 3.5k years to practice and hone various skills. I wouldnt call him a great general, but he has deffinatly led troops in battle, or at least given orders.
If you need an example then try the Trolloc Wars. Of course he also commanded in the AOL I believe.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-14
** Being the leader of an army doesn't seem like Ishamael's style. He is more of the advisor type. Somebody who would pretend to be giving good advice, while actually leading the advisee to make poor choices. **
Ishamael is not a general, that is true. However, he did not go to Rand with the intention of being a general, or leading troops. He went to Rand to "form a compact". My guess would be that Taim/Ishamael/Moridin, intended to use this so that he would be at Rand's side with the ablity to influence him.
So, actually, Taim did follow Ishamael's pattern of controlling people.
Anubis: 2005-09-14
Ishamael was "assuredly the Dark One's top captain-general despite the fact that he never held a direct field command."
pg 50 of The BWB.
So Ishamael was a general. I am right and you are wrong. :P
JakOShadows: 2005-09-14
Flinn: If what you say is true, and that he is not trying to kill him but influence him, then why would he order the Asha'man to kill Rand. That seems very out of character for Ishy who seems to be controlling the over plan which is not to kill Rand. And the way I see it is that whether Taim is a darkfriend or not, he is helping them more than Rand with his actions. Maybe he thinks Rand is going crazy, and who wouldn't agree, but I don't think it was part of any initial plan of the shadow for Taim to hook up with Rand.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-14
Anubis,
Are you aware of what a Captain-General actually is?
A Captain-General is more of a Governer for the military. (S)he would not even command troops in any fashion. It is a military title to the same degree that Commander in Cheif is. That is to say that while they are technically military, they do not command troops as such. They are more likely to say something along the lines of, "Invade this place." or "Defend this city." Then leaves it to actual military leaders to figure out how to carry out the orders.
To say that he is a military leader is technically true, but not in the same fashion as say, Demandred, Sammael, or Ba'al.
If you would count that as a military leader, then every Forsaken is a military leader.
However, this is not what he specializes in, nor would it be something that he would choose to do.
Wompat: 2005-09-15
Flinn,
then why is Gareth Bryne considered one of the best generals in the world, if during his expirience as CAPTAIN-GENERAL of Andor he never actually commanded troops?
Anubis: 2005-09-15
Captain General
In the battles of Hawkwings rise, a Captain General was a rank above Lieutenant-General and below the highest "temporary" rank of Marshal-General.
So a Captain General would not be the supreme commander, that would be the Dark One. Ishamael would be in the rank that determines which places to attack. While lesser generals would determine the exact means to carry out the attack. Although, strategy isnt a huge element when you are dealing with huge armies of trollocs.
Anubis: 2005-09-15
**If you would count that as a military leader, then every Forsaken is a military leader.**
Oh, and if you read the BWB it mentions that several of the forsaken, Asmodean never held a field command, Lanfear is never mentioned as anything but an assassin and govenor, Graendal was never a field commander, Mogheiden is never mentioned as commanding, Balthamael and Aginor also never commanded.
Traveller: 2005-09-15
They do sound incredibly similar but even if Ishy is Taim, it still must be coincidence, coz M'Hael in the Old tongue is Great Leader, and Ishamael means Betrayer of Hope in the Old Tongue, so it is not some sly simliarity to see who would notice kinda thing, I don't think.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-15
Even as Captain-General, you have to have a good knowledge of how military systems and tactics work to judge how your officers are doing. You can't say attack this place and have no knowledge of how to do it or whether it is possible or not. The only difference between an officer and a captain-general is that the captain general might have a better grasp of the politics and the effect his orders may have on the world's view of their country. But they can't be ignorant of military knowledge.
JakOShadows: 2005-09-15
Sorry, I didn't quite think about how the last bit sounded there. After all the stuff about a captain-general having to know about about the military, I don't mean to imply that Ishy can't do that. I just meant that if he wanted to avoid doing that kind of work, it would be a bad base of operation for him to choose. But it is likely that he knows how to do it since the reference book says that was his basic job in the war of power.
Callandor: 2005-09-16
**Apparently, no matter how much evidence I show you, you aren't accepting it. However, I will review all of the evidence, just so you can see how much you are ignoring.**
Apparently, you're ignoring all of my posts, where I counter every single piece of "evidence" you've given -- that's not ignoring it at all.
**Dashiva had the Spark inborn. I understand your reluctance concerning this issue, but it is a very good possibility, and for the answer to that, we will have to wait for RJ to begin answering our questions again. However, as it cannot be proven either way, we must refer to that pesky thing called evidence.**
I love that you said with absolute assurance "Dashiva had the spark inborn," but then say that it's unknown (because this is the actual truth.
Stick to what the facts are, not what you are trying to make the facts into.
**Taim never raises anybody to Asha'man unless he is afraid of him, Logain, or else they are darkfriends, his little coterie.**
You're jumping the gun really fast. Yes, all those Taim raises Asha'man are suspicious, but he raised a lot more Asha'man by the time of Dumai's Wells than his lackies and Dashiva:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 55 - Dumai's Wells
Inside the dome, the last fighting died even as Rand looked. Under the eyes of a scant handful of red-marked men and Maidens, disarmed Shaido were removing their garments with stolid faces; taken in battle, they would wear gai'shain white for a year and a day even if the Shaido somehow succeeded in overrunning the camp. Cairhienin and Mayeners provided guards for a large knot of angry Warders and Younglings mixed with fearful servants, almost as many guards as prisoners. Nearly a dozen Aes Sedai were being shielded by an equal number of Asha'man wearing sword and Dragon. The Aes Sedai looked sick and frightened. Rand recognized three, though Nesune was the only one he could name. He did not recognize any of their Asha'man jailers. A number of the women Rand had shielded and rendered unconscious were laid out with those prisoners, some of them beginning to stir, while black-coated soldiers and Dedicated with the silver sword on their collars were using saidin to drag others across the ground and lay them in that row. Some of them brought the two unconscious Aes Sedai and the angular woman out of the copse; she was still screaming. When they were added to the cluster, some of the Aes Sedai abruptly turned away and vomited.**
There were roughly 10-12 full Asha'man at Dumai's Wells (no for sure number, sadly), and 5 of those we know at least were unseemly (lackies and Dashiva).
By the way, it's important with the second bolding that Dedicated and soliders are remarked as differently, so the comment isn't read as nearly a dozen Asha'man and Dedicated -- it's clearly Asha'man being refered to.
**In this situation, that must mean that Taim knows that Dashiva is a darkfriend at least. You could also opt for the fear option. However, that would be more detrimental to your argument, and as such, I am going to assume the former.**
Variety of options:
1. Taim thought Dashiva was a Darkfriend.
2. Taim was scared of Dashiva.
3. Taim knew nothing about Dashiva.
**The only proof necessary for that claim is when Rand chose his Asha'man to accompany him. Taim tells Rand to choose any full Asha'man. Rand, using Ta'veren, points randomly to Dashiva. Taim is clearly upset by this, and asks Rand to choose anybody else.**
False, he tells him to pick Torval or Rochaid, and more than likely was going to rattle off Kisman and Gedwyn.
And Taim was shocked.
**By doing this, Taim shows that, although he wants to keep an eye on Rand, he also wants to keep Dashiva close to him.**
How's that? If you can get such a specific reason, from a generic response, how on earth are you not a fortune teller?
Look, Taim wanted one of his coterie. Rand wanted Dashiva (picked randomly of course). How you draw Taim wanting Dashiva, is nothing more than you asserting something that is not there.
**This shows, as I said, that Dashiva is set apart from all other Asha'man.**
Indeed, almost as if Taim didn't trust Dashiva, or didn't know what he would do.
**You have said that Osan'gar wouldn't disobey Ishamael, but he did. That isn't even up for dispute, because he tried to kill Rand.**
1. Taim is the one who ordered Rand's death in the first place, since he sent the Fearsome Foursome to kill Rand, so how is this breaking Ishamael's order when Ishamael is breaking it already, if he is Taim?
2. It was the Dark One's order, not Ishamael's.
3. You ask why did Dashiva try to kill Rand, if he was going to break an order. What if he wasn't breaking the order?
See, what you fail to address, is this:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
Osan'gar frowned at "idiots" and "blind fools," as well he might, but he quickly smoothed that plain, creased face, so unlike the one he had been born with. By whatever name he was called, he had always known who he dared challenge and who not. "A matter of chance," he said calmly, though he did begin dry-washing his hands. An old habit. He was garbed like some ruler of this Age, in a coat so heavy with golden embroidery that it almost hid the red of the cloth, and boots fringed with golden tassels. There was enough white lace at his neck and wrists to clothe a child. The man had never known the meaning of excess. If not for his particular skills, he never would have been Chosen. Realizing what his hands were doing, Osan'gar snatched the tall cuendillar wineglass from the round table beside his chair and inhaled the dark wine's aroma deeply. "Simply probabilities," he murmured, trying to sound offhand. "Next time, he will be killed or taken. Chance can't protect him forever."**
1. The italics is simply more confirmation that Dashiva wouldn't challange certain people (I would think you would agree Ishamael would obviously be one of those people) to go along with him not breaking certain orders.
2. Dashiva says, openly, that Rand will be killed eventually. Want to know the surprising thing? This is before Moridin said Rand can be killed if necessary.
Think about that. Dashiva has attempted to kill Rand. With the order in place, it's something that should have him killed or in bad standing at least. And what is he doing? Bragging about how Rand will fall sooner or later openly.
And, why was the order removed? Because Rand was going to Cleanse saidin. Which came from two pieces of knowledge:
1. Rand saying his plans to Cleanse saidin (first or second time, makes no difference -- second more than likely did it though).
2. Cyndane's information of Rand having the Choedan Kal.
Hate to tell you, it points highly to two likely things:
1. The order being recinded before the attack and Osan'gar doing it of his own acord -- later made more clear at the Forsaken Coffee Hour.
2. Moridin telling Osan'gar to go do the attack personally (can put it however you want, such as "capture him if you can, kill him if you have to").
In either cases, Taim's reaction doesn't make sense if Taim is Moridin.
1. Osan'gar didn't break any orders, since the command would've been lifted.
2. Moridin ordered Osan'gar to do the command, so why be upset over it??
**Now, upon learning of a Chosen disobeying not only the Dark One, but also your direct order. In that situation, I would be snarling too. I would also be shocked upon learning of this. Which perfectly describes Taim's reaction upon learning of Dashiva's attack.**
It does describe Taim's reaction -- except it doesn't fit what we know about Dashiva and the attack. Which is why it's hardly "proof" that Taim is Ishamael/Moridin.
**Also, like I said, were Rand to check the list of Traitors, Rand would know right away that Taim had added the Asha'man that Rand kept with him. So why would he add Dashiva?**
Good question -- I answered it very simply: More than likely, because Taim didn't know who Dashiva was.
**And no, option 2 is not possible. No Forsaken or Darkfriend oversteps his bounds. Nobody will even mislead in the Dark One's name. And Darkfriends are terrified that they will offend a Forsaken. Lady Shiane is a perfect example of this. She is relatively powerful as far as non-channelers go. However, when a Forsaken tells her to make an Aes Sedai's visit as unpleasant as possible, she is so afraid that Moridin might take it amiss, that she goes harder than she strictly has to on them. And even Channelers don't want to offend the Dark One, no matter how they can channel. They are more terrified of the Dark One, than of death.**
LOL!
One name: Liandrin. Yeah right, no one oversteps the Shadow's bounds. Just happens that Liandrin tries to Compel if not kill a Forsaken. Oh, and what's this?
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 18 - A Hound of Darkness
It had to be so. Who else could have so cowed the others? Liandrin looked at them standing around the walls. Round-faced Eldrith Jhondar, for once not looking vague at all despite an ink smudge on her nose, nodded vigorously. The others seemed afraid to twitch. Why one of the Forsaken-they were not supposed to use that name, but usually did, among themselves-why Moghedien would have masqueraded as a servant, she could not understand. The woman had or could have everything that she herself wanted. Not just knowledge of the One Power beyond her dreams, but power. Power over others, power over, the world. And immortality. Power for a lifetime that would never end. She and her sisters had speculated on dissension among the Forsaken; there had been orders at odds with each other, and orders given to other Darkfriends at odds with theirs. Perhaps Moghedien had been hiding from the rest of the Forsaken.**
Hmm, it seems other Darkfriends have overstepped their bounds, too.
**No, Taim cannot kill Logain. It is very simply that Logain has established a base of power.**
Again, he doesn't need to kill him in front of everyone. Hell, if Taim is Ishamael/Moridin, he can get into his dreams and pull him into tel'aran'rhiod and simply kill him there like he's done with other Darkfriends -- everyone will think he died in his sleep.
Taim cannot kill Logain; Ishamael/Moridin easily could. Heck, Taim might even be able to do it if he can be sneeky enough, but there is a chance of it being linked. With Ishamael/Moridin doing it -- it's simple.
**It isn't necessarily a fear of killing Logain that I am referring to. I mean to say, a fear of what will happen if he tries to.**
That is what I meant by fear -- I highly doubt he fears Logain personally; the only thing he might fear is being torn down by jackels (IE: the students).
**Asha'man go out hunting for those who have been declared Traitors. So wouldn't it then follow that were they to come across Dashiva, they would attempt to kill him?**
No duh, but think about this for a moment before answering:
Osan'gar is a Forsaken. He's out of where he was hiding. So, where was he? Very possible he was trying to enter into another place to be effective, but where is that going to be? Almost assuredly no place an Asha'man goes for recruiting. I'm not talking like they don't go to certain countries -- they go to every single one now. I'm talking the ruling areas, the centers of power that the Forsaken go to in order to have power to control, where Asha'man do not go for recruiting.
And, again, let's say an Asha'man does go into such a place -- Osan'gar can either kill him (since you know, knowledge is handy), or if he's forewarned or sees the person earlier he can disguise himself.
**He gave permission for Rand to be killed, if necessary, and only then when it serves a higher purpose. Once again, guilty conscience, and annoyance is not an acceptable reason to kill Rand. Useless objection**
Uh, no. Read again.
**Why would he?**
Well, since he's thinking specifically about Moridin, and what he's been ordered to do, you would think that he would bring up something else that happened if it did.
**And the reason for redeeming has already been established. He tried to kill Rand for a trivial and mundane reason.**
And he was redeemed for this?? Again, no reference or remark or gesture or anything to signify an order for redeeming nor the need for one.
**He already did. It was something that was shown to us in the story. Not something that was alluded to, nor something that was implied. We saw him disobey Moridin's order.**
Already explained above.
**Osan'gar was rounded up by Moridin and told to obey Taim. By disobeying Taim, he disobeys Moridin.**
Ah!
So now it's NOT Taim is truely Ishamael/Moridin -- it's Taim is a subject of Ishamael/Moridin?
Keep your position straight.
(Besides, you'd have to show where Moridin tells Osan'gar to obey Taim. That would be an interesting one.)
**Not if you ignore everything that I say, then it doesn't. I meant that it covers everything on the condition that you paid attention. I thought that was implied.**
If you read my posts, you would see that I addressed your points.
**That is to say that while they are technically military, they do not command troops as such. They are more likely to say something along the lines of, "Invade this place." or "Defend this city." Then leaves it to actual military leaders to figure out how to carry out the orders.
To say that he is a military leader is technically true, but not in the same fashion as say, Demandred, Sammael, or Ba'al.**
Uh huh.... Right. Care to explain?
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount
Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! A pitiful, shattered wretch. But it is not enough. You humbled me in the Hall of Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen. But I am the greater, now. I will not let you die without knowing that. When you die, your last thought will be the full knowledge of your defeat, of how complete and utter it is. If I let you die at all."**
And, you know, Ishamael being the leader of the Trolloc Wars and all....
But, no, never a general....
**However, this is not what he specializes in, nor would it be something that he would choose to do.**
Going by what he's actually done, he's a general, has led troops, and so have many of the Forsaken.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-16
Wombat,
He did not start with the rank of Captain-General. He moved up to that rank by being such a good commander. That is why he is considered one of the best generals alive. He knows how to win battles.
Anubis,
That was exactly what I said. As such, he would not be concerned with how to win a battle. He would be concerned with what battles to win. We see him doing this with the Forsaken at the coffee-hour. He doesn't care how they stop Rand, he just wanted Rand stopped.
A Captain-General will get military strategists to actually decide how a battle is to be won, once the Captain-General explains which battles must be won.
The entire point of the argument is that he would not be the one who would want to command actual troops. We can agree on that, right? Well, that is what Taim is doing. This is not what Ish usually does, and he is doing it because this was not his original plan.
His original plan was to be Rand's advisor. Explaining which battles to win, and which ones to avoid, like he did for Hawkwing. Hmmmmm... sounds exactly like a Captain-General, which is what Ish does have experience at being.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-19
The point is that he did not try to become the leader of the Black Tower. He tried to become Rand's partner. The actual things he would do would be very close to that of a Captain-General. He would be advising Rand on where to attack, and where to defend. Not how to get those things done.
Anubis: 2005-09-19
**That was exactly what I said. As such, he would not be concerned with how to win a battle. He would be concerned with what battles to win.**
Yes, and telling troops where to strike makes you a general.
Anubis: 2005-09-19
Gah sorry... ok here we go
**The entire point of the argument is that he would not be the one who would want to command actual troops. We can agree on that, right? Well, that is what Taim is doing.**
Ishamael did not command troops that we know of(in battle). However the quote by the Watcher stating that he had gained expertise in areas Sammael had scorned and in some he favored too is a little bit tempting, but not proof.
Of course, Taims command of the Asha'Man smacks of somebody who is used to telling armies where to strike, and not how. The Asha'man rescue attempt is poorly orchestrated, poorly planned, and untill the last bit poorly executed.
Of course this doesnt help or harm the Taim = Ishy Theory so why are we talking about it?
lurk: 2005-09-20
Well i was reading the entire thread and found as compelling evidence for Taim to be Ishy as for Taim not being Ishy.
That is always good to keep the discussion going. If I look through all this I see something that I know from giving training.
The student (especially the really ignorant one) copies a lot from his or her teacher. It is the easiest way to learn everything.
We see this with the aes sedai.They handle weaves in the similar way as they were trained (for the sheer surprise the yellow ajah displayed when Nynaeve used fire for healing.This was unheard of healing was about using water,air and spirit.
The other example is Rand who is a dimwit with a blade when he gets it from Tam.He is trained by Lan and takes over several aspects of Lans character (have to be like a stone,hard duty is heavier than a moiuntain etc.) Because he sees that is a good way for his teacher (lan) todealwith everything that comes on his path.
So the many similaries between Ishy and Taim might be because of the teacher - student relationship they had.So i see this theory helping me believing more in the Ishy as a trainer theorie that is around the board.
Canan Urgas: 2006-04-06
please stop saying taim is demandred! please! robert jordan said demandreds alter ego HAS NOT APPEARED before book 10.
if taim is anybody but himself i would doubt that its moridin. as for whoever said he was osangar/dashiva, they have been seen together many times so it cant be that either. i think taim is himself, the original mazrim taim
Darkholme: 2008-07-03
To start off this is my first post here but I was listening to KoD while at work and found something interesting in the epilogue. RJ made two direct comments on the floor tiles in the Black Tower Palace. That they are red and black. If I remember correctly Moridin wears red and black, I know this doesn't prove anything but it did provide some more fodder for the Moridin = Taim discussion.
Ozymandias: 2008-07-08
Its possible Darkholme, but not likely. Without finding any specific evidence... its just logistically too tough.
Moridin would not be able to keep up that charade for long, given his frequent lengthy absences doing other things. Also, Dashiva would have recognized him, and he can't channel to hide his appearance, as hes with a bunch of male channelers.
Oh, and Taim was around before Moridin.
Darkholme: 2008-07-14
But taking into account that it was mentioned, by Demandred I think, Moridin has a large number of saa due to exclusive use of the True Power. He could easily use that to create the illusion.
Also, if I remember correctly that when Moridin is introduced into the series that he already seems to have a "power base" if you will. Not at all like seeing Arangar and Osangar being reborn.
Again, this is just fodder and by no means direct proof that Taim=Moridin.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-07-18
Darkholme:
"To start off this is my first post here but I was listening to KoD while at work and found something interesting in the epilogue. RJ made two direct comments on the floor tiles in the Black Tower Palace. That they are red and black. If I remember correctly Moridin wears red and black, I know this doesn't prove anything but it did provide some more fodder for the Moridin = Taim discussion."
All the red and black color motif does is provide some evidence about Taim's current employer. Taim was captured by the Aes Sedai at exactly the same time that Ishamael (now Moridin) was fighting Rand in the skies over Falme, so can you explain how you think that Moridin could be masquerading as Taim?
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TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 12 – The Amyrlin Seat
Siuan felt a tightness loosen in her chest. "I hoped it was he," she said softly. "I have had reports from women who could only tell what they had heard, and rumors by the score come with every trader's boat and merchant's wagon, but I could not be sure." She took a deep breath. "Yet I think I can name the day it happened. Did you know the two false Dragons no longer trouble the world?"
"I had not heard, Mother. That is good news."
"Yes. Mazrim Taim is in the hands of our sisters in Saldaea, and the poor fellow in Haddon Mirk, the Light have pity on his soul, was taken by the Tairens and executed on the spot. No one even seems to know what his name was. Both were taken on the same day and, according to rumor, under the same circumstances. They were in battle, and winning, when suddenly a great light flashed in the sky, and a vision appeared, just for an instant. There are a dozen different versions of what it was, but in both cases the result was exactly the same. The false Dragon's horse reared up and threw him. He was knocked unconscious, and his followers cried out that he was dead, and fled the field, and he was taken. Some of my reports speak of visions in the sky at Falme. I'll wager a gold mark to a week-old delta perch that was the instant Rand al'Thor proclaimed himself."
"The true Dragon has been Reborn," Verin said almost to herself, "and so the Pattern has no room for false Dragons anymore. We have loosed the Dragon Reborn on the world. The Light have mercy on us."
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Darkholme:
"Also, if I remember correctly that when Moridin is introduced into the series that he already seems to have a "power base" if you will. Not at all like seeing Arangar and Osangar being reborn."
You don't suppose that's because Moridin was abroad in the world previously as Ishamael for a significant time, while Aginor and Balthamel had been free from their prison for only a short time before they were both killed at the Eye of the World?
MatrimCauthon: 2008-08-26
I don't think that Taim could be Morridin because Taim has shown no signs of the Saa, that I know of anyway....... It would almost be more believable that in face Rand and Morridin are the same person even though that is utterly ridiculous