asema is a substitute for Taim
by Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-07-19 | 4.71 out of 10 (14 votes)
Something similar to this has come up before I'm sure, but a particular link stood out to me as I reread Book 8 and 9.
A quote from Book 4:
"Joiya shrugged. "As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al'Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years." Perhaps put himself in two places at once. Even the sort who have always rallied to a false Dragon will hesitate in the face of the indiscriminate slaughter and worse laid at his feet. Those who do not shrink at such butchery will seek out the Rand al'Thor who seems to revel in blood. The nations will unite as they did in the Aiel War ..." She gave Aviendha an apologetic smile, incongruous beneath those merciless eyes. "... but no doubt much more quickly. Even the Dragon Reborn cannot stand against that, not forever. He will be crushed before the Last Battle even begins, by the very ones he was meant to save. The Dark One will break free, the day of Tarrnon Gai'don will come, and the Shadow will cover the earth and remake the Pattern for all time. That is Liandrin's plan." There was not a hint of satisfaction in her voice, but no horror, either."
Presuming Liandrin's plan was in fact given to her by a Forsaken, it became apparent that Taim wouldn't do. He either couldn't be found, or became part of a new plan centered on Rand's amnesty. But what to do with the old plan?
Turns out there was someone who could do exactly what Taim would have. Butchery and carnage that gives Rand a bad name. Making life difficult for Rand by association. Possibly meant to lure him to correct the problem himself, much as Fain tried in the Two Rivers.
Joiya's description of what was planned for Taim eventually came to pass with Masema.
If you consider that he is receiving Seanchan in secret, there can be no doubt that only a high-ranking Seanchan could pull that off. Suroth.
Masema was compulsed (not compelled, ha!) by the Forsaken and has been ordered to plan movements with Suroth, and vice-versa. He is overly eager to Travel in a direction that leads him and Perrin closer to the Seanchan.
Semirhage is the nearest Forsaken (be she Anath or Therava), but there's no real reason to pin this on any particular one of them. It could have been any of them, though Demandred and Semirhage stand out since we have confirmed little of their plots.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-08-15
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Old plans don't die, they're just recycled. But i think the Seanchan connection has more to do with where Masema is active (Ghealdan and Tarabon/Almoth) than with a concerted effort on Masema's part to stay close to the Seanchan and his source of orders. Then again, Masema doesn't seem to be falling all over himself answering the Lord Dragon's summons.
2
JakOShadows: 2005-08-16
Masema might have been influenced by some of the forsaken after he gained power, but I don't see him being very open to influence. In tGH, he seems crazy enough to mess up Rand's plans already. No one ever saw mess like this coming from him, except maybe the people who knew him. And since the forsaken wouldn't know him very well it would seem unlikely, but it is possible. The phrase possible but not plausible comes to mind here.
3
Dorindha: 2005-08-16
I'm not convinced, sorry. Masema is mad, and we have Perrin's scent test on that, but he has been mad before he started meeting with the Seanchan, and has been a nuisance since before then also. I doubt the Seachan would have been in a position to meet with him much before we see them doing so, as I doubt even Suroth could find a reason to meet with the Prophet before they had expanded as far as Amadicia, as any raken sighting outside Altara and Tarabon would undermine the surprise attack on Amador.
I think the Seanchan (not Suroth following Shadow orders) are probably trying to get him on side (or at least, so he thinks he is), as it makes their job easier for expansion into Ghealden.
It is true that he gives the DR a bad name, and it may be that that fulfils some plans of the shadow, but I do not think that it is on a scale comparable to what Taim could have done. There is a very strong residual fear of false dragons, which would have a much stronger pull to war than someone who is essentially a nuisance, not a military threat.
4
Davian93: 2005-08-16
****Old plans don't die, they're just recycled. But i think the Seanchan connection has more to do with where Masema is active (Ghealdan and Tarabon/Almoth) than with a concerted effort on Masema's part to stay close to the Seanchan and his source of orders. Then again, Masema doesn't seem to be falling all over himself answering the Lord Dragon's summons. ****
I agree that its a strong possibility. I've always thought Masema was a tool of Demandred. Think about it, Demandred gets to singlehandedly destroy the Dragon's (as he sees it) reputation. Considering the hate he has for Rand/LTT this fits in perfectly. It also falls under the DO's "LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE" dictim that he gave Demandred. So with Demandred involved with Masema and the Seanchan that would also fit in with Sammael's belief that Demi was responsible for "events in the south" as he termed in while in Ebou Dar with Greandal. It may be recycled but its still a good idea, eh?
5
Laughingman: 2005-08-16
Hmmmm, Having issues with this one. I agree that there are similarities there. I'm not so sure that Masema would have to be compelled to do all that though. He's painted as being a little kooky back in 'The Great Hunt' and even kookier in 'The Dragon Reborn' I really think that he's just acting on his own, or at least started off that way, as simply an example of the damage that fanatics can do to their own cause. That fanatical light was stated after The Dragon Reborn's camp was attacked at the beginning of the Dragon Reborn.
In addition, When Nynaeve runs into Uno in Ghealdan, Uno catches us up with what they've been doing. They arrived in Jehannah, Moraine's contact wasn't there to meet them. Masema just started babbling about the Dragon Reborn, and one thing led to another.
The meetings with the Seanchan would apparantly have to do with Masema's belief that only the Dragon Reborn should be allowed to channel and that only begrudgingly.
6
brother of Battles: 2005-08-16
I like this theory. Think about it, Liandrin's plan was not only to give Rand a bad name, it was also to make people afraid of him. How better to do that then to have a so-called "Prophet" send his "Desciples" out and "Convert" any none believer. Just because the forsaken didn't know who Masema was doesn't mean they will continuely ignore something as major a man proclaiming the DR. Especially when they want his name and reputation tarnished.
Who knows, Taim might well still be part of the plan. The M'Heal is the old tounge, and how meny common people know the old tounge to know that isn't a title for the Dragon Reborn. Also, who knows where the recruting parties go to? Taim started up his "Privet" leasons, I am guessing, pretty quickly since every member in it is a full Asha'man. The combined efforts of both Taim and Masema can have been the "recycled" plan of any or all forsaken. And it is most assured that they are letting the Lord of Chaos rule.
TWO THUMBS WAY UP!?!?!
7
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-16
Isn't Graendal the one who worked with the mad, or otherwise insane? Masema has always been a little off. It probably wouldn't take much to tweak his madness along a path that aids the Forsaken.
Compulsion works better when the person being manipulated wants to do what you are asking. Masema wants to spread the word. Give him an extra push in that direction, and he is doing what he wants to do anyway. Just remove his inhibitions a bit...
Also, there is still the question of whether Joiya was telling the truth. She is not bound by the oath against lying. It could well be that the plan was always for Masema rather than Taim, but Joiya, et all. say it is Taim to mislead. Also, if there is an Oath against revealing darkfriend plans, saying it is Taim rather than Mesema gets around that oath as well -- congecture of course.
8
Garayur: 2005-08-16
Masema is mad, You don't control mad men because of the sheer unpredicibility of them. He was always a little wierd and besides what need of the shadow to set up taim or force hime to discredit Rand if someone is already doing it for you.
9
Callandor: 2005-08-17
**Turns out there was someone who could do exactly what Taim would have. Butchery and carnage that gives Rand a bad name. Making life difficult for Rand by association. Possibly meant to lure him to correct the problem himself, much as Fain tried in the Two Rivers.**
But the plan was for Taim to be Rand. He would do everything as Rand.
I'd place him as a proxy of Demandred, but not in this respect of a Black Ajah plot.
10
Darkshadow: 2005-08-18
Nice theory, since the books never tell us just how exactly did taim get freed from his Aes Sedi captors.
I believe the BA got to Taim and made a deal with him.In exchange for his freedom, Taim would impersonate Rand and wreak chaos and destruction. From LoC Taim says,"Submit? I had thought more of a compact between us. I would be the lesser partner, of course, yet I have had years than you to study the Power. There is much I could teach you." Then just as suddenly, he switches from domineering to submissive replying "I submit to the Dragon Reborn. I will serve and obey."(The corners of his mouth quivered again in that almost smile as he rose.) This only reinstates that Taim is biding his time till he has enough power and authority that he can do what he pleases and all in Rand's name.
Let's face it, every single move Taim has done, from naming himself the M'hael to making only those loyal to him Asha'man has only increased tensions between the world and Rand (again what Liandrin's plan called for)
Another point, why is it that most of the Asha'man we see from Taim are darkfriends (especially the ones he sent to kill Rand). So if this theory is correct, Taim was rescued by dark sisters and has many darkfriend male channelers in his control. Kinda raises a lot of speculation, like how he was able to live along time without going mad from the taint.
11
Traveller: 2005-08-20
I really like this idea- also because I have always harboured a sneaking suspicion that Masema is a DA: It could just have easily been him as the Shienaran soldier Bors sees at the DA meeting with Ba'alzamon, and Ingtar couldn't have shot the arrow at Rand/the Amyrlin coz he was close by.
However, I am not saying any of this is true, I am just opening my mind to different options.
12
brother of Battles: 2005-08-22
"I really like this idea- also because I have always harboured a sneaking suspicion that Masema is a DA: It could just have easily been him as the Shienaran soldier Bors sees at the DA meeting with Ba'alzamon, and Ingtar couldn't have shot the arrow at Rand/the Amyrlin coz he was close by."
Traveller -
The arrow was shot at Rand in Fal Dara by a gray man. Ingtar himself says that at the end of book 2. He says something about having to open the sally gate for a man you barely even notice when you are looking directly at him. In my opinion the only creature that fits that discription is a Grey Man.
Plus, I am 100% possitive it was Ingtar at the DF meeting with Bors because I think it was Lan that said something about Ingtar comeing back from a hunting trip that was happening at the same time as the meeting. Through why no one was suspicious of him I don't get. Who goes hunting in the Borderlands by himself and why someone as good as Ingtar can not bring anything back with him?
So basically I don't think Masema was a darkfriend before he became the Prophet. He might not even realize what he is doing is evil right now. He is crazy and if compulsion is being used on him as well....all I can say is OUCH.
13
Callandor: 2005-08-23
**Plus, I am 100% possitive it was Ingtar at the DF meeting with Bors because I think it was Lan that said something about Ingtar comeing back from a hunting trip that was happening at the same time as the meeting.**
More than likely it wasn't the man you were thinking of. Ingtar's sword is always behind his back, and the Shinearan at the Darkfriend Social reached for his waist by habit for a sword. Ingtar could've been there, and just not mentioned, or it could be he got his orders from Liandrin at Fal Dara itself.
14
silverwolf: 2005-09-11
Masema was acting much as he is long before he met the Seanchan. However, the rest of the theory seems plausible--one of the Forsaken using compulsion during TDR to make Masema a little more...violent and a little less principled is entirely possible; it might even account for why he hates Aes Sedai now, a trait not common among Shienarins and not evident in Masema until TSR. Anath/Semirhage might be using him now, but I think Demandred is a more likely candidate for reasons stated in other, earlier responses.
