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azrim Taim: Dreadlord Commander
by Dumai Wells: 2005-09-21 | 5.84 out of 10 (19 votes)
Previous Categories: Taim - Then and Now
We know that Kisman, Rochaid, Torval, & Gedwyn were Darkfriends. WH Kisman POV..."he wanted to live forever, those things had been promised"..."The Great Lord knew he wanted to"..etc etc.
The point I am trying to make is that it's only logical to assume that if Mazrim Taim's four most favorite Ashaman were darkfriends, then he is too. So what is my theory?
I know what I have laid out so far all of you have heard before. Well, I believe that Mazrim Taim's specific purpose now will be to train darkfriend channelers and produce dreadlords to fight for the shadow at the last battle and command them like he did for Rand at Dumai's Wells. This is not the Age of Legends. The dreadlords that fought for the shadow then were mostly made up of darkfriend aes sedai, both male and female. The forsaken were just the 13 most powerful of those aes sedai. In this age, especially because of the taint, there are a lot less channelers. Before the black tower there were no men, and a lot less women. Where will the dreadlords come from? Well, The black ajah of course, those the shadow turns by force, and the darkfriend ashaman trained by taim. I belive that as soon as the shadow learned of Rand's amnesty, they set Mazrim Taim into play. They gave him the seal, and gave him his assignment. Even if they are trying to get that seal and others now (killing Dobraine and ravaging Bashere's tent) by the way Taim is the one who saw rand give bashere that seal to hold in the first place.
We know that the shadow plays chess, not checkers. At that time, they needed Taim to get in good with Rand, and by giving him the seal, they did just that. Even the story he gave rand about how he got it was perfect. Well, Rand never trusted him, but he did trust him enough to give him the task of starting the black tower. Even that gray man that Taim killed for Rand i believe to be a ploy. It's all an act to get rand to never suspect what taim is up to.
Read what Logain says to Rand in COT pg 557:"Taim does a great many things people think are at your direction..but he has his own plans"..."Flinn and Narishma and Manfor are on the deserters list like every Ashaman you kept with you. And he has a coterie of twenty or thirty he keeps close and trains privately". "Every man who wears the Dragon is one of that group, except me..."No matter what you've done, its time to turn your eyes to the black tower before Taim splits it worse than the white tower. If he does, you'll find the larger part is loyal to him, not you, they know him, most have never seen you."
We know that Rand has to know that Taim was behind the attacks in POD and the foursome following him to Far Madding.
WH page 719 soft cover Gedwyn says: "I say we aren't going near him until I know where the others are, The MHael will kill us if...
This chapter was Rands POV, that means if we read it, Rand heard it, he knows Taim was behind it, he has to. So I ask the question, why hasn't Rand gone after taim? You read Winters Heart, you know how badly Rand wanted to kill the foursome, he stayed in far madding a long time just to get them, even Lan says "give it up" and Rand's reply? "when the sun turns green"
My point is that RJ has done this on purpose. Rand's response to to Logain after hearing what he says about the split black tower.. COT page 558:"Taim will have to wait"
Why is he so calm? RJ has done this on purpose because he will not kill off Taim. Taim has a purpose, and that is to lead the dreadlords for the Shadow. Here's another point. RJ loves working with polar opposites.
Creator - Dark One
Saidan - Saidar
Rand - Ishamael
Egwene - Elaida(not dark, still opposite)
Logain - Taim
And this is also where Logain's glory will come into play. He will lead the good ashaman against Taim and his bad dreadlord darkfriend Ashaman at the last battle just like Egwene will lead the aes sedai, Alviarin or some high ranking black ajah sister will lead the black ajah. Rand has his own duties at the Last battle, I dont believe he will actually be in the thick of the fighting. So, this is my theory:
1. TAIM IS A DARKFRIEND
2. HE HAS BEEN FORSAKEN TRAINED
3. HAS A SPECIFIC SHADOW
4. ASSIGNMENT SINCE THE BEG
5. WILL SURVIVE RAND'S WRATH TILL THE LAST BATTLE AND WILL COMMAND THE DREADLORDS HE TRAINED AGAINST THR LIGHT AND WILL BE TAKEN OUT BY LOGAIN HENCE LOGAIN'S GLORY.
Btw, I have also read winespring brothers "real black tower" theory and I must disagree( even though I respect winespring brother's theories greatly) I dont believe there is another black tower, I just believe there is one and that is where Taim is training the dreadlords. The ashaman there probably revere him and believe anything he says, and will convert a large chunk to the shadow and take them with him.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-10
Dumai, it is comprehensive and well thought out. Your stance is a bit more detailed than theories in the past regarding Taim being a darkfriend. I like how you take the stance that Taim has been a setup all along. We tend to buy into Moiraine's speech about the Pattern throwing out false Dragon's until the real one comes forward. Taim being broken out by the Black Ajah works with what you say. Also, the seal being in his possession; we know Ishamael could easily have found one and given it to Taim. I tend to lean toward Ishamael. And this is something to consider, that I have never considered before: the Shadow has been looking for Rand, and in the process has likely found tons of male channelers. It stands to reason that Ishamael could have found Taim, or he was found by other darkfriends, and that his strength was encouraging enough for Ishamael to set up Taim for this exact purpose, to befriend Rand, get on the inside, and to begin training dreadlords. I don't like how Rand has ignored the problem, and I am not sure I get a clear picture of your take on that issue. Is it your belief Rand hasn't gone against him simply because Jordan wants Taim to live to the end to head the Dreadlords?
Callandor: 2005-10-10
**The point I am trying to make is that it's only logical to assume that if Mazrim Taim's four most favorite Ashaman were darkfriends, then he is too.**
You would think it would be logical, and fit absolutely perfectly -- but some just don't see it.
But, they will.
**In this age, especially because of the taint, there are a lot less channelers.**
Don't know what you mean. The taint doesn't have anything to do with the lesser amount of channelers, except giving Aes Sedai the reasoning to gentle male channelers. It's a reasoning, but not the cause.
**Before the black tower there were no men, and a lot less women.**
False, there were wilders as well in the dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars, and it seems obvious that male channelers would go to the Shadow for hope of some help told or not.
**I belive that as soon as the shadow learned of Rand's amnesty, they set Mazrim Taim into play.**
Maybe not "right away" since Taim was already coming into that area before hand, but if Taim is a Darkfriend dreadlord, it's beyond a doubt he is where he is on orders of some kind by the Shadow. Whether that was to get close to Rand originally, and the school became an unexpected opprotunity is hard to say, but in either case, orders are present.
**Even if they are trying to get that seal and others now (killing Dobraine and ravaging Bashere's tent) by the way Taim is the one who saw rand give bashere that seal to hold in the first place.**
True, but one could simply deduce that Rand gave the seals to ones he could trust, and Bashere is certainly one of the most trusted.
**Even the story he gave rand about how he got it was perfect.**
Not truely perfect, since it doesn't explain how he got it/kept it after being captured, but Rand is ignorant of asking that little detail.
**Well, Rand never trusted him, but he did trust him enough to give him the task of starting the black tower.**
He didn't like him, but he trusted him only as much by lack of choice really.
**We know that Rand has to know that Taim was behind the attacks in POD and the foursome following him to Far Madding.**
No. Rand might suspect strongly, but it's a complete unknown if he feels that way. In Rand's thinking, it could simply be people deserting and turning against Rand. But, it would be stupid of him not to see higher orders playing in here -- all depends on if he thinks they come from Taim.
**This chapter was Rands POV, that means if we read it, Rand heard it, he knows Taim was behind it, he has to. So I ask the question, why hasn't Rand gone after taim?**
Very convincing quote -- except that Rand had just seen Gedwyn and Torval dead and right after attacking "them" saying this, they are revealed to be an illusion made by Fain.
I would use it as perfect proof for Taim's evilness -- but Rand is probably going to discredit it since it was obviously Fain's work. But, it might tip the scales if he gets another nudge, like the one he got from Logain.
**Why is he so calm? RJ has done this on purpose because he will not kill off Taim. Taim has a purpose, and that is to lead the dreadlords for the Shadow.**
Well, I wouldn't phrase it like that. Jordan would easily kill of Taim -- it's just not time to ;)
Rand is so calm because he has another target -- remember, he had the Shadow on one hand, and the Black Tower on the other; he struck the Seanchan hoping for a truce.
However, you might consider this quote proof that Rand considers Taim evil:
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm
Rand leaned back in his chair, careful not to let his tiredness show. The seals on the Dark One's prison on one hand, Taim splitting the Asha'man on the other. Was the seventh seal already broken? Was the Shadow beginning the opening moves of the Last Battle? "You told me something once, Bashere. If your enemy offers you two targets. . . ."**
Might be skirting subtly a lot, but you could use it to say Rand believes the Shadow and Taim to be in line.
**5. WILL SURVIVE RAND'S WRATH TILL THE LAST BATTLE AND WILL COMMAND THE DREADLORDS HE TRAINED AGAINST THR LIGHT AND WILL BE TAKEN OUT BY LOGAIN HENCE LOGAIN'S GLORY.**
I wouldn't put it as the Last Battle. I believe Rand will deal specifically with Taim next (after the Seanchan), and there will be the main conflict, but it might be that Taim and other followers escape to take part in the Last Battle and truely die there.
**And this is something to consider, that I have never considered before: the Shadow has been looking for Rand, and in the process has likely found tons of male channelers. It stands to reason that Ishamael could have found Taim, or he was found by other darkfriends, and that his strength was encouraging enough for Ishamael to set up Taim for this exact purpose, to befriend Rand, get on the inside, and to begin training dreadlords.**
Maybe, I could see it working, but it seems a strange thing for Ishamael to do. But, who cares about the how and why exactly to me ;) It's in proving Taim is a Darkfriend that's the key!
Traveller: 2005-10-11
I think this theory will help put things straight because of the great and simple way it has been explained. i believe pretty much that it is correct except that I can't make up my mind whether Taim is a high-ranking darkfriend, or a Forsaken, or what?
This theory has actually really helped me get my head around what is going on with taim, especially in relation to the other Asha'man. I think you are right about Logain leading the 'good' asha'man against Taim and his asha'man, but I think it would be interesting to speculate the ratio of good to bad, perhaps 1:5?
lurk: 2005-10-13
I really like this theory, although I thought at first that Taim was good before he was put in the second place (something he really dislikes) what made him turn bad.
There has been too much evidence around to prove me wrong. Taim is a dreadlord and most likely shadow trained.
Good theory dumai wells start a faction and I'll join
Davian93: 2005-10-15
Warning: Knife of Dreams Spoilers in this Reply
Okay where to start...First of all we have no way of knowing if Taim was always a Darkfriend or if he recently turned to the Dark side. Basically we know for a fact at this point that Taim is a DF and could possibly be a new Chosen to replace the deceased ones. Two things confirm this decisively for us: Taim's "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" statement and his sudden obsession with Black and Red (Moridin's colors). So yes Taim is a Darkfriend and in charge of 100 new Dreadlords probably reporting to Moridin. Reasons for this are Moridin doesnt exactly trust or rely on the current Forsaken. They havent exactly proven trustworthy or useful in any manner. They're more bumbling than anything.
I would guess that Taim turned to the Shadow sometime after the end of LoC simply due to being sick of Rand's arrogance and a perceived lack of appreciation/dissatifaction with the role he has been given.
There were several indications that Taim was a good guy before this. First he gives Rand a Seal. Unlikely that the DO or a Forsaken would be willing to authorize this. Second his clear concern for Rand when Rand collapses at the Black Tower "You must hang on if anyone can" This was not a faked reaction. That was Taim worried about the DR surviving till the Last Battle. Taim rescuing Rand at Dumai's wells. This could be Forsaken clashing or this could be Taim coming to the rescue because he is a good guy. I would lean to him turning after this point. Not getting the charge of the AS from Dumai's Wells plus Rand pretty much treating him like crap are good motivations to go to the Shadow.
Another point to raise: At that point Dashiva (Osan'gar) was planted at the Black Tower. IF Taim was a DF there would be no need to plant a Forsaken at the BT. So probably Taim turned afterward, otherwise there is no need to for Osan'gar to be there.
silverwolf: 2005-10-16
Davian93: I noticed the two points you raise from KoD as well, and either one would be great evidence to support your claim; both make it...difficult to dispute (I would say indisputable, but this is Theoryland, so someone's probably going to challenge it...[shakes head]). Not sure about Taim originally being good, though--as Callandor said, how'd he keep the seal during captivity? One could argue that he received it afterward, but we don't know what country he was in when he escaped and his comments on receiving the seal seem to indicate otherwise.
Davian93: 2005-10-16
****Not sure about Taim originally being good, though--as Callandor said, how'd he keep the seal during captivity? One could argue that he received it afterward, but we don't know what country he was in when he escaped and his comments on receiving the seal seem to indicate otherwise. ****
The Seal is a big question mark for Taim having been good at one point. According to Taim, he got it ""In the last place you would expect," Taim replied, "which I suppose is the first place to look for the others. A decaying little farm in Saldaea. I stopped for water, and the farmer gave it to me. He was old, with no children or grandchildren to pass it on to, and he thought I was the Dragon Reborn. He claimed his family had guarded it more than two thousand years. Claimed they were kings and queens during the Trolloc Wars, and nobles under Artur Hawkwing. His tale could have been true. No more unlikely than finding that in a hut only a few days ride from the Blightborder.""
So according to Taim he got it in Saldaea, which means he got it before he was captured by the AS. He was freed/escaped in the Black Hills so its doubtful he made it back to Saldaea or would go back to Saldaea, but we dont know for a fact where he went to start. We know he ended up in Camelyn after being tracked by Bashere and his 9000 Saldaeans. So if he got the Seal before he was captured, the AS confiscated it and he reclaimed it after his escape. Perhaps it was on one of the two AS that were killed in his escape.
Callandor: 2005-10-16
Knife of Dreams Spoilers again
**I would guess that Taim turned to the Shadow sometime after the end of LoC simply due to being sick of Rand's arrogance and a perceived lack of appreciation/dissatifaction with the role he has been given.**
I wouldn't say that. If he was ever good, it was before Dumai's Wells he turned, because by then he already has his lackies and they are already doing bascially his bidding which is certainly up to no good. After all, if you believe Taim ordered the attack on Demira to cause a rift between the Aes Sedai and Rand (which seems to be his perogative), who do you think were the ones that carried it out?
**Second his clear concern for Rand when Rand collapses at the Black Tower "You must hang on if anyone can" This was not a faked reaction. That was Taim worried about the DR surviving till the Last Battle.**
It could be Taim worrying over the survive of Rand on orders. After all, we know of Elza as one Darkfriend clearly concerned over Rand's survival -- just to see him fail and die.
** Taim rescuing Rand at Dumai's wells. This could be Forsaken clashing or this could be Taim coming to the rescue because he is a good guy. I would lean to him turning after this point. Not getting the charge of the AS from Dumai's Wells plus Rand pretty much treating him like crap are good motivations to go to the Shadow.**
If he was good at all, I'd say he turned before Dumai's Wells simply because it seemed to be Forsaken influenced even with its outcome, and it's result was direct with a split between Rand and the Aes Sedai, which Taim as only enhanced again and again.
**IF Taim was a DF there would be no need to plant a Forsaken at the BT.**
So, by that logic, since theres Black Ajah in the White Tower, theres no need for Mesaana there? Or that because theres Black Ajah in Salidar theres no need for Aran'gar to be there?
And, added to this, Osan'gar didn't spend long there anyway, so I wouldn't call it quite being planted there.
Hammar: 2005-10-16
WARNING - Knife of Dreams Spoiler
1. It seems likely that when Taim was freed, it was done so by Black Ajah under orders of one of the Forsaken (most likely Ishy). So he was then given the seal to present to Rand as a trust gift. (Thanks to everyone else's proof on how impossible it was for him to have had the seal throughout the capture)
So this makes sense that if Taim hasn't been a DF all along, he has at least been so for as long as he's been at large.
2. I know RJ likes coincidences, but listen to this. Rand declares his amnesty for male channelers but he is really clueless in how to go on with finding them. "Coincidentally", Taim shows up and knows of a way to test for a resonance (which seems like Forsaken-taught) of saidin and find male channelers.
3. Taim tells Rand to hang on to sanity, only because he is under the "let Rand live" edict that the Dark One/Ishy/Moridin all impower, and he wishes to further gain trust.
4. Some people say that Taim saved Rand at The Wells, but questions keep coming up with that statement. How did Taim know that Rand needed help? And how the heck did Taim know WHERE Rand was. Unless, Galina (Black Ajah) had been updating one of the forsaken of her whereabouts, and in turn that forsaken ordered Taim to step in when it was getting too far. Correct me if im wrong in this please but I have read the series several times and I have still failed to realize HOW Taim knew exactly where Rand was at The Wells.
5. The last point of interest somewhat of a prediction. At the end of KOD, Taim lets it be known he is a high ranking Dreadlord. He allows Pevara and the Reds to bond some Asha'man that are with Taim. This is leading to the Foretelling that Elaida had, which went something along the lines of, The Black Tower will be in ruins and sisters will be walking its grounds. So maybe a soon battle between Taim's Asha'man and bonded Aes Sedai and Logain's Asha'man and bonded Aes Sedai. Which could lead to the Black Tower being ruined and whichever side wins (Logain's because he has more sisters) will have sisters walking its grounds. (which leads to another theory that then all the asha'man will live in the white tower and Logain will get his glory as being the Head Asha'man)
near3decades: 2005-10-17
WARNING: Knife of Dreams Spoiler
Good post, Dumai
Tamyrlin: You ask about the reason why Rand has ignored this problem thus far, and to me, the answer is simple. Let's look at a couple other examples that will illustrate my point.
Who killed Asmodean? RJ has blatantly not answered this seemingly simple question for over a decade...why? Is Asmodean's killer THAT pivotal to the story? No. RJ does not answer this question, because it (IMO) leads to other questions that he cannot/will not answer. RJ does not want to reveal what he has not written yet, and this is the main reason he will not answer this question.
The question of Lanfear/Cyndane and Moiraine, their time with the Finns, and escape...all of which could very well be linked to the question of Asmodean's killer. I am partly surprised that he revealed Cyndane to be Lanfear, but I think he just needed to give us *something* to sate us until this situation is resolved.
The point I'm trying to make is this: RJ does not want what he has not written yet to validated until you read it in the story. Theories, predictions, conjecture, etc. are all fine and good, but he is not going to make anything concrete until the words are officially spoken, once and for all, in the story itself. This is why he refuses to answer certain questions, and why he gets visibly upset every time he gets these same questions. It's got to be frustrating for the guy...
With all that said, now I'm going to get to the point, and I really don't care how badly I will certainly get flamed for this: RJ has been lying to us. I believe that he has planned all along for a big bombshell in the last book...a huge blind-siding blow to Rand that he never realized...and hopefully, we wouldn't either until the same moment.
There is no Taim...Taim is dead. Never have we seen any darkfriend in the entire story get *saved* from capture...with the exception of the Forsaken themselves. Galina, Liandrin, we have many examples...no rescues. Moghedien, Lanfear, Aginor/Balthamel...rescued. So why Taim? Why is this guy the sole exception to the rule?
There is no Taim...Taim is dead. There is only Demandred.
At the end of Knife of Dreams...*Let the Lord of Chaos Rule*. That's what they say...who is they? There is only one other place in the story this same phrase is used. I think most of us know where that phrase was said, who said it...and most importantly...who it was said to.
Until it is definitively proven in the story, I stand by the belief that:
There is no Taim. Taim is dead. There is only Demandred.
If I am proven to be wrong (IN THE STORY), I will happily eat those words.
Enjoy, everyone
Again, great post Dumai
near3decades: 2005-10-17
Hammar: Boy, I like that last paragraph...good pickup on Eladia's Foretelling.
Logain's glory being the First Tamyrlin of the new age...which implies either that Rand is dead, burned out, or has stepped aside.
Good angle, Hammar
near3decades: 2005-10-17
I apologize for this extra post, but if there is a way to edit previous posts in this forum, I haven't found it yet...
Something has always bugged me about Demandred.
*Have I not done well, Master?*
What, exactly, had he done at that point? Can anyone elaborate?
I can only think of one thing, but I am interested to hear what anyone else has to say.
Heron: 2005-10-17
Um could it be that he's starting to convert some asha'man to the shadow I mean he's training the first real male Dreadlords since the Trolloc Wars as you can argue that the BA have always been Dreadlords but are only hidden in the white tower. Training new Dreadlords is pretty important, it just can't be the Forsaken(whats left after rand and co have been at them) verus all the good channellers+ the choden kal+ callandor which in my eyes = a** whooping :-)
Callandor: 2005-10-17
Warning; Knife of Dreams Spoilers
**2. I know RJ likes coincidences, but listen to this. Rand declares his amnesty for male channelers but he is really clueless in how to go on with finding them. "Coincidentally", Taim shows up and knows of a way to test for a resonance (which seems like Forsaken-taught) of saidin and find male channelers.**
Jordan has said that Taim was on way to Andor because he knew it was a safe spot for male channelers from Aes Sedai.
What Jordan doesn't say, and few pick up on, is what was Taim's source of information.
**3. Taim tells Rand to hang on to sanity, only because he is under the "let Rand live" edict that the Dark One/Ishy/Moridin all impower, and he wishes to further gain trust.**
Well, sadly, we don't know that. But given that Taim is a Darkfriend, it does make the most perfect sense. Especially since we've seen similar reactions from Elza, the Black Ajah amongst Rand's group that Rand must live only to see him die at the Last Battle.
**4. Some people say that Taim saved Rand at The Wells, but questions keep coming up with that statement. How did Taim know that Rand needed help? And how the heck did Taim know WHERE Rand was. Unless, Galina (Black Ajah) had been updating one of the forsaken of her whereabouts, and in turn that forsaken ordered Taim to step in when it was getting too far. Correct me if im wrong in this please but I have read the series several times and I have still failed to realize HOW Taim knew exactly where Rand was at The Wells.**
Jordan has answered this. He said that Taim went to Cairhien to talk to Rand (which Taim does reference), saw that Rand wasn't there, Perrin wasn't there, the Tower Aes Sedai weren't there, and a large group of Aiel weren't there and put it together. He then gated along the most likely path to Tar Valon, and when he found Rand he went back to the Black Tower, got the Asha'man and returned.
What Jordan doesn't say, and neither does Taim, is why he went to Cairhien at that time. Presumably it's for a trivial matter, but who knows.
Also, while it can be seen as helping, yes, it also did irrevocable damage to Rand's feelings toward Aes Sedai for a good long while. Taim being a Darkfriend, you can see this is exactly as he has been operating, if you so believe he was behind the attacks on Demira Sedai in Caemlyn. He's done nothing but try to distance Rand from Aes Sedai and make it more and more difficult for them to work together, hence furthering the Shadow's goals of chaos.
**5. The last point of interest somewhat of a prediction. At the end of KOD, Taim lets it be known he is a high ranking Dreadlord.**
To us at least -- remember, the Aes Sedai, at least Pevara, have no clue what the saying means at all.
**So maybe a soon battle between Taim's Asha'man and bonded Aes Sedai and Logain's Asha'man and bonded Aes Sedai.**
The question is would Taim allow his Asha'man to be bonded? Remember, the Tower Aes Sedai don't get to pick anyone they want -- the Asha'man has to be accepting.
In either case, it does stretch the conflict between the Tower and Rebels to the Asha'man since the Rebels will start (if they haven't already) to bond Asha'man as well.
**RJ does not want to reveal what he has not written yet, and this is the main reason he will not answer this question.**
RJ has said that the main reason he hasn't said who killed Asmodean is simply because people cannot figure it out. I do recall him saying in an interview that Asmodean's death wasn't that important to the overall storyline.
**With all that said, now I'm going to get to the point, and I really don't care how badly I will certainly get flamed for this: RJ has been lying to us. I believe that he has planned all along for a big bombshell in the last book...a huge blind-siding blow to Rand that he never realized...and hopefully, we wouldn't either until the same moment.**
RJ doesn't lie to us deliberately. If it's important to the plot, and he wants to keep it that way, he won't lie to us about it -- he just will RAFO it. That was your entire point.
He misquotes himself a few times, yes, but it's never deliberate lying.
**There is no Taim...Taim is dead. There is only Demandred.**
Taim is not Demandred. Get the thought out of your head.
We know he's not Demandred, IN THE STORY if you so wish it, since he would've recognized Damer Flinn at the Cleansing since he was the first one Taim tested and made such a fuss over. Instead, Demdandred is surprised that Flinn is a "tottering old... Asha'man!"
**What, exactly, had he done at that point? Can anyone elaborate?**
We don't know. Most people chalk it up to the actions of Taim -- that Demandred or Ishamael has been feeding Taim orders and he's been doing them.
**Um could it be that he's starting to convert some asha'man to the shadow**
Undoubtedly -- that's why all the Asha'man around Taim (his "favorites") laugh when he says "Let the lord of chaos rule."
Dumai Wells: 2005-10-18
Tamyrlin, in response to your question:
"Is it your belief Rand hasn't gone against him simply because Jordan wants Taim to live to the end to head the Dreadlords?"
Yes, that is exactly what I believe. It fits in well with the story because right now Rand is dealing with the Seanchan and doesnt have the time to go after Taim, and since I believe RJ wants to keep him in the story, it does not surprise me that in KOD Rand says again to logain "I'll put an end to it when i have time but the seanchan have to come first and maybe tarmon gaidon too"
very nicely done by rj so he can keep taim around to do his duty which is keep recruiting and training dreadlords.
Minor Knife of Dreams Spoiler:
but after reading KOD, i still dont understand why Rand is so lax when it comes to Taim. Doesnt he suspect Taim of being of maybe being one of the people behind the ashaman attacks in POD? I dont get it. Rand is supposed to be this brilliant guy who can come up with the genius plan to cleanse the taint but doesnt see something right in front of his face? Callandor help me out please.
near3decades: 2005-10-18
Callandor:
I have been reading this site off and on for a few years now, and I have always respected your opinions, and knowledge of the series...and I have agreed with you on most things.
I cannot agree with you on this, however. You say RJ does not deliberately lie, and I believe you are correct...most of the time. In this case, however, he cannot RAFO this topic.
RAFO =
a) You are right, but I'm not going to confirm it at this time.
b) You are right, but perhaps not in the way you think you are, and I'm not going to confirm it at this time.
He cannot RAFO this topic, and he never could...that's the problem with taking so long to finish, heh. He has had try to side-step and deflect some very astute and pointed questions for over a decade, and that has to be tough.
I am not going to try to prove Taimandred...many others have attempted to do so, and I would just be repeating what they have said. However, I will say this - I want to walk away from Taimandred, but I see too many things that have Demandred's MO written all over them to leave it...or give over, as you said.
As we all know, Demandred would have been the most acclaimed man of his age, were it not for Lews Therin's existence. Always second best, and almost were his life. These things we all know as fact.
Why would someone with that kind of drive, that kind of ambition, that kind of skill, start using *proxies*? Put another way, why would someone who chafed at being second-best, further distance themself from their accomplishments in this age? Something in that stew just doesn't sit right with me, and that's the reason I stick by this theory.
Thanks for responding to my question about *what had he done at that point*. Anything involving the Black Tower is probably the correct answer, but here's the thing...what did *he* do? I submit that during Lord of Chaos, the Black Tower and the number of Asha'man who could channel effectively seemed to spring up out of nowhere (no idea how much time passes during LoC?), but I just never thought that alone would be enough to get pleased laughter from the Dark One. After KoD, certainly, and maybe even PoD...but not by the end of LoC. That's just my opinion, though.
Also of note:
As far as I know, Demandred is the only Chosen to receive direct instruction from the Dark One, and the only one to get a pleased reaction to what they have done. The Dark One even asked *Would you be Nae'Blis?* Then proceeds to tell Demandred what to do (who is to live, who is to die) to achieve this...and yet Moridin is to all appearances Nae'Blis? Hmm...mistake on RJ's part, or has Demandred been screwed yet again? Demandred has not failed yet, unlike all of the others (as of the end of KoD). Thoughts, anyone?
Callandor: 2005-10-18
**but after reading KOD, i still dont understand why Rand is so lax when it comes to Taim. Doesnt he suspect Taim of being of maybe being one of the people behind the ashaman attacks in POD? I dont get it. Rand is supposed to be this brilliant guy who can come up with the genius plan to cleanse the taint but doesnt see something right in front of his face? Callandor help me out please.**
Rand has some clues that Taim is a bad guy, but the largest one comes from an Illusion made by Fain, so Rand might completely discredit it (in the Illusion, they outright say they have orders from the M'Hael). Rand simply has other things to do, even if he knows the danger. He puts the truce with the Seanchan as a greater importance than the Black Tower. He maybe right, but it's getting much worse very quickly. I'm sure Rand knows of the risk, and could even possibly think Taim isn't all that good -- but sadly Rand's in the position of right now having to juggle big things with two hands.
**I cannot agree with you on this, however. You say RJ does not deliberately lie, and I believe you are correct...most of the time. In this case, however, he cannot RAFO this topic.**
RJ can RAFO any topic he wants. When he doesn't he's giving out the information. When he does, he's saving it because it might be important later on or he might use it or he hasn't made up his mind on it.
Jordan does not lie to us -- he RAFO's instead.
**He cannot RAFO this topic, and he never could...that's the problem with taking so long to finish, heh. He has had try to side-step and deflect some very astute and pointed questions for over a decade, and that has to be tough.**
RJ has RAFOed Taimandred many times before, and he's even stated FLAT OUT that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.
**I am not going to try to prove Taimandred...many others have attempted to do so, and I would just be repeating what they have said. However, I will say this - I want to walk away from Taimandred, but I see too many things that have Demandred's MO written all over them to leave it...or give over, as you said.**
It's very simple:
1. Taim is Forsaken trained.
2. His trainer was possibly Demandred or Ishamael/Moridin.
All you're "Demanadred" MO's can be explained away.
**Why would someone with that kind of drive, that kind of ambition, that kind of skill, start using *proxies*? Put another way, why would someone who chafed at being second-best, further distance themself from their accomplishments in this age? Something in that stew just doesn't sit right with me, and that's the reason I stick by this theory.**
Because that actually IS his MO? That he uses proxies? Sammael blatantly explains that:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow
"He cut in sharply. "You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to." Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. "Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans." Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. "So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it." There had been a long struggle after the Bore was opened into the Great Lord's prison, many years before enough strength was gathered to move openly. This time, when the final seal was shattered, he would present the Great Lord with nations ready to follow. If they did not know who they followed, what did that matter? He would not fail, as Be'lal and Rahvin had. The Great Lord would see who served him best. "You tell him!"
Now, why would Sammael be lying to himself in his own thoughts about such a topic?
**Thanks for responding to my question about *what had he done at that point*. Anything involving the Black Tower is probably the correct answer, but here's the thing...what did *he* do? I submit that during Lord of Chaos, the Black Tower and the number of Asha'man who could channel effectively seemed to spring up out of nowhere (no idea how much time passes during LoC?), but I just never thought that alone would be enough to get pleased laughter from the Dark One. After KoD, certainly, and maybe even PoD...but not by the end of LoC. That's just my opinion, though**
From start of the Black Tower to Dumai's Wells is roughly two months. It's not that the male channelers "sprang" out of nowhere -- they were always there, just as learners not wilders. It's the same reason that the White Tower (at least the rebels) has had it's own amazing leap in numbers: they actually began to seek out channelers, not have them simply come to the Tower.
What Demandred did is subjective to what you believe. If Taim is Demandred's pawn, Demandred truely didn't "do" anything -- he achieved the end by ordering it.
The big thing is causing chaos between the relation of Rand and the Aes Sedai. The major point of this was Dumai's Wells. If Demandred tipped Taim off, or planned it through him, or simply ordered him to find and help out Rand, whatever the means, it still would've been Demandred's hand on the major divisive act between Rand and the Aes Sedai. After Dumai's Wells, Rand really does not trust Aes Sedai; he barely did before, after he hardly has any trust (and says so many times). If you so wish you can take a specific example of this, with Rand having the rebels kneel and swear fealty to him which is still giving Aes Sedai gripes as much as five books later -- at this moment, Taim seems to be as close to happy as ever. If you accept the motive, you know obviously why.
If you accept that this was Demandred's accomplishment, and that his means was Taim, you can also believe that it was Taim who was behind the attacks on Demira Sedai in Caemlyn, which was the catalyst for Rand leaving Caemlyn of Cairhien and eventually being captured. It nearly shattered the relationship between the rebels and Rand.
You can look into this for some of Taim's "smaller" acts, or failed acts, in Lord of Chaos as well. What does Taim do at least twice in the book? He tries to show Rand that he could "take care" of the Aes Sedai problem -- obviously meaning to kill them. Why would this be desired? Because the Aes Sedai would go flipping pissed at it! A male channeler killing Aes Sedai in a pre-planned manner so? You could make a case that it would've united the Tower to lead a strike on the Black Tower right away. That surely would've messed up the relation between Rand and the White Tower.
Post-Lord of Chaos you can see this continuing. What does Taim want to do right away after Dumai's Wells? He wants the Aes Sedai to be set up as prisoners in the Black Tower.
The next major divisive act (sure there's minor ones, but I just don't care much right now to list everything) is the forced bonding of Aes Sedai that came to attack the Black Tower. Yes, shame on Elaida for ordering it if you wish, but Taim's actions were equally as bad for the relationship because it not only evaporated any chance of ties to the White Tower for a bit -- but it sure pissed off the rebels when they finally learned of it in Knife of Dreams (as Romanda thought -- it was an abomination, and she even knew they were Elaida's!).
Warning: Knife of Dreams Spoiler follows:
Then finally there are Taim's actions in Knife of Dreams. Why does he so casually accept the Aes Sedai wishing to ask to bond Asha'man? Just as he said, "Let the lord of chaos rule."
It's even more division, more uneasiness, more tenstion all aimed between Rand and the Aes Sedai.
**As far as I know, Demandred is the only Chosen to receive direct instruction from the Dark One, and the only one to get a pleased reaction to what they have done.**
Semirhage possibly recieved instruction on her setup in Seanchan, as well as Mesaana in the Tower.
**Hmm...mistake on RJ's part, or has Demandred been screwed yet again?**
Screwed yet again I would say. Demandred has done good strides, yes, but they still pale in comparison to what Ishamael did over 3500+ years of history and keeping the Light continually from uniting completely. Demandred is doing good things (or at least it seems it's his work); however, Ishamael was doing the exact same thing, and more times, thousands of years ago.
**Demandred has not failed yet, unlike all of the others (as of the end of KoD). Thoughts, anyone?**
He somewhat has since he was supposed to keep an eye on Rand, and even Graendal was calling him down for not doing it. But he hasn't failed on the level of Moghedien or anything.
Fireball: 2005-10-23
Interesting theories one and all..
I disgree with Taim being merely a darkfriend. (WARNING: SPOILER) At the end of KoD Taim says "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". Well that phrase was used once before. Go back to the LoC in the Prologue (link)
when Demandred gives the Dark Lord's message, "You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. But it stays here, held close. Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing. Nor do the others, whether alive or dead. The first part of the Great Lord's message was simple. Let the Lord of Chaos rule. His words, exact."
Since that message is not to be said to anyone else, Demandred is the only male to have heard it. The fact that Taim states it seems more than coincidence.
As for training the "Dreadlords", it seems to make logical sense that channelers for the DO will have to come from somewhere. (btw, Why there are no "Dread Ladies" :) ?)
Callandor: 2005-10-23
**Since that message is not to be said to anyone else, Demandred is the only male to have heard it. The fact that Taim states it seems more than coincidence.**
Of course its more than coincidence -- but I don't think we should think of Taim as a Forsaken because of it. Darkfriend, Dreadlord, whatever -- Shadow alligned and not a Forsaken is good enough.
haertchen: 2005-10-26
"As for training the "Dreadlords", it seems to make logical sense that channelers for the DO will have to come from somewhere. (btw, Why there are no "Dread Ladies" :) ?)"
I think because the female dark channelers are also called DreadLords. . .
red hand: 2005-11-25
i have a question about the bonded sisters. i thought that it was logain that was the catalyst for the bonding. in knife of dreams, taim is given credit for this. is this right??
Callandor: 2005-11-25
**i have a question about the bonded sisters. i thought that it was logain that was the catalyst for the bonding. in knife of dreams, taim is given credit for this. is this right??**
Taim ordered the Aes Sedai to be bonded, since Rand said he could not attack Aes Sedai. It's a very nice twisting of Rand's words. Logain came to really symbolize the cause of the Aes Sedai being bonded, though, because he himself bonded 2 and all the ones that are bonded are to Logain's men, not Taim's.
JakOShadows: 2005-11-27
Actually, I thought that Taim was just now starting to do that, whereas Logain did it out of his own accord. They don't coordinate with each other very much considering their situation.
FraKcture: 2005-11-29
Callandor:
"I'm sure Rand knows of the risk, and could even possibly think Taim isn't all that good -- but sadly Rand's in the position of right now having to juggle big things with two hands."
WRONG. With one hand. ;-)
Anubis: 2005-11-29
**I think because the female dark channelers are also called DreadLords. . .**
Yes, in the english language when refering to mixed company, usually the male form takes dominance. Hence Policemen, Firemen, Servicemen etc. A group of Lords and Ladies would simply be refered to as a group of Lords.
Darkshadow: 2005-11-29
Back on the Taim is a dreadlord issue... what about the red and black livery that Jordan intentionally stated at the end of KOD(Moridin's colors)?? what about the fact that when Rand faced Tel Janin (Sammael) in Shadar Logoth and it was MORIDIN who happened to be there?? I would think that if Taim worked for Demandred, it would be Demandred and not Moridin we would have found as well at SL.
Honestly, none of the Forsaken trust the other to let them in on each others' schemes, so Moridin just happening to be there is too coincidental. And we have evidence that Moridin was already watching some of the Forsaken (such as Sammael and Grandael)and Rand used Ashaman to help combat Sammael's traps, meaning Taim knew when Rand was going to face Sammael.
However much Demandred was known to use proxies... i dont think he would teach any of them many of the interesting weaves we know that are out there, but Logain questioned Rand in KOD if he was keeping the weaves used against the thousands of Trollocs for his cronies just like Taim does. All of the Forsaken that we see their POV dont trust Darkfriends at all. So the possibility that Demandred teaching Taim seems far-fetched. He wouldn't want to teach a male channeler almost at the level with Rand in terms of Strength in the OP anything that Taim might use against him. And as we know that Taim IS NOT Demandred, that leaves us with only one conclusion.....TAIM IS MORIDIN
JakOShadows: 2005-11-30
Darkshadow:
Taim is not Moridin, he is a set-up. Right now, Moridin is working with Taim, but Demandred probably set him up before that. Because Moridin appeared after Taim was put into place. And we have seen him take orders from Demandred and Moridin. But Taim is Taim, not a forsaken posing as him.
Callandor: 2005-12-01
**And we have evidence that Moridin was already watching some of the Forsaken (such as Sammael and Grandael)and Rand used Ashaman to help combat Sammael's traps, meaning Taim knew when Rand was going to face Sammael.**
False. Remember, they were Rand's Asha'man who had not been to the Black Tower since before Dumai's Wells.
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords
"What are we doing here?" Dashiva said, looking about incredulously. Around them stretched hundreds of sharp-peaked tents, gray and dusty white, tents and picket-lines of already saddled horses. Caemlyn lay not many miles away, hidden behind the trees, and the Black Tower not much farther, but Taim would not know of this unless he had a spy watching. One of Fedwin Morr's tasks had been to listen, to feel, for anyone trying to spy. In a ripple of murmurs spreading outward from the ropes, men with bold noses and serpentine swords rose from their heels and turned to stare expectantly toward Rand. Here and there women stood as well; Saldaean women often rode to the wars with their husbands, at least among the nobles and officers. There would be none of that today, though.**
**And as we know that Taim IS NOT Demandred, that leaves us with only one conclusion.....TAIM IS MORIDIN**
Or... Taim is a pawn OF Moridin's.
Darkshadow: 2005-12-18
But he is still someone Lews Therin knows because in Lord of Chaos (when Rand was talking to Taim after naming the male channelers Asha'man) LTT was screaming in Rand's head
I will kill him, and then them,. They must serve him. It is plain; they must serve him.
Go away, Rand shouted back silently. You are nothing but a voice! Stretching toward the Source.
Oh, Light, I killed them all. All that I loved. If I kill him, it will be well,though. I can make it up, if I kill him finally.
As we know, it was Ishamael who showed LTT how he killed all that he loved and both could be called archenemies. Even after this quote, with Taim looking concerned for Rand's sanity, note that Moridin also didn't want Rand to die and helped him in Shadar Logoth against Sammael.
While Callandor will say that it still doesn't prove anything, Robert Jordan likes to hide things by putting them out in the open and so far, we haven't really been introduced to any of the forsaken's proxies, something Jordan would have included in 11 books if it had an important role in the story.
Cirrus: 2005-12-19
i believe in this theory also, but theres one problem with your writing, just a minor error that doesn't really effect ur overall theory.
u quoted: Lan says "give it up" and Rand's reply? "when the sun turns green"
this doesnt apply to rands hunt, however. This is when Lan has fallen off the roof, and Rand is holding him up from falling. Lan wants Rand to drop him and save himself, which Rand will not do.... if someone thinks or can even prove that im terribly wrong, go ahead, this is just what i interpreted it as
PillowFriends: 2005-12-20
Callandor:
**Don't know what you mean. The taint doesn't have anything to do with the lesser amount of channelers, except giving Aes Sedai the reasoning to gentle male channelers. It's a reasoning, but not the cause.**
Reason or cause, that's just semantics.
I believe it does. First of all, male channelers are actively eliminated (through various means) from the population, resulting in a fewer number of channelers, specifically male channelers. Secondly, I believe I have read indications in the series, although I can't quote it directly, that the ability to channel can be genetic. Thus, as the male channelers are killed off, there would be fewer male AND female channels born due to few male channelers to pass on their genes.
JakOShadows: 2005-12-20
That's interesting line of thought, but I always interpreted that to mean that LTT didn't like the idea of him having power, rather than him being Ishmael. I think the reason it would bring that reaction is because LTT knows what happened to him, and doesn't want to risk that happening to the leader of his male channelers. Plus, how would LTT recognize the soul of Ishmael? I always thought he relied on the same sense as Rand would, and Rand doesn't have a sixth sense as far as we know. It would be very ironic if it were true, but I don't think RJ would have reacted to Taimandred the way he did if it were Ishmael. And plus, we don't see him until book seven anyways. There is just too much that is unaccounted for.
Cirrus: 2005-12-21
No, i dont think Taim is Moridin himself, for one reason. Taim was around while Ishy/Moridin was still dead. Although the DO can revive people, i doubt he can have someone be dead and alive, or in two places at the same time.
it's possible that this Taim is just an imposter, but again i doubt this, because Taim has no Saa floating across his eyes. The price for using the dark source, this would destroy any chance of disguising himself he had. Although originaly it may just show up while channeling the dark ones power (i refuse to call it the true source, seing as how the real true source, the one power, comes from the creator, while the dark source is an imitation), to much abuse causes the Saa to appear completley at random, and we can all agree that Moridin has been using the DS quite frequently.
Dumai Wells: 2005-12-21
PillowFriends, nice post, that is exactly what I meant when I wrote that "because of the taint there are a lot less channelers" . The taint is not the reason, the female aes sedai gentling the men and thus slowly but surely wiping out the channeling spark or ability is the reason. Also, The spark or the ability to channel is definately connected with genes. It's just like anything else, if your father was a good singer than you may also be a good singer but that doesnt mean that you cant be a good singer if your father wasnt and it doesnt mean that you would be a good singer if your father was. And I went back and read that chapter of winter's heart and you are correct, Lan was talking about letting go his hand, not the fight against the foursome.
Callandor: 2005-12-23
**Reason or cause, that's just semantics.**
And semantics are important, because it's two different things.
The taint doesn't cause there to be less amounts of channelers. The taint just drives male channelers mad and eventually kills them.
What makes fewer channelers is Aes Sedai culling out male channelers by gentling them.
See, the person was giving the wrong credit to the cause of fewer channelers and I corrected that. The taint is the justification for gentling male channelers -- but it's not the cause for there to be less amounts of channelers.
Dumai Wells: 2005-12-23
Callandor, you are wrong, when I wrote "because of the taint" what I meant was the gentling being the reason. I didnt elaborate in the post but I figured people would know what I meant. You took it the other way and that is understandble because I didnt elaborate. When I say "because of the taint" I am expecting the reader to be well versed enough in the series to understand I mean the gentling. Go back and read it. "In this age, especially because of the taint, there are a lot less channelers."
PillowFriends: 2005-12-24
**And semantics are important, because it's two different things.**
My Webster's dictionary uses the word "cause" to define "reason" and the word "reason" to define "cause". Also, my Thesaurus lists them under each other. So, I submit that they are one in the same. Not that this matters one bit to this theory. The point is that the taint, directly or indirectly, is a cause/reason for fewer channelers.
Callandor: 2005-12-25
**Callandor, you are wrong, when I wrote "because of the taint" what I meant was the gentling being the reason.**
Well, you should've explained your reasoning. Again, it's not because of the taint that there are less channelers -- it's Aes Sedai gentling male channelers. What you intend to write, and what you do write are two dramatically different things. So don't tell me I'm "wrong" just because I'm cannot psychicly read what you wish to post.
**When I say "because of the taint" I am expecting the reader to be well versed enough in the series to understand I mean the gentling.**
Yes, because I'm the ignorant one here, given that I knew exactly what you meant but you still worded it terribly and tried to explain the wrong conclusion. Don't care -- you didn't explain it right, so I corrected it. That's it.
tworiverswoman: 2005-12-26
Quote: “Very convincing quote -- except that Rand had just seen Gedwyn and Torval dead and right after attacking "them" saying this, they are revealed to be an illusion made by Fain.â€
Dispute – I’ve seen a lot of conversation on the boards that suggest that this is just one of the earliest versions of the “dead walkingâ€. We didn’t know at this time that this was possible, and I can’t think of any GOOD reason for Fain to have created such an illusion.
Quote: “RJ has been lying to us.â€
Dispute – someone else pointed it out long ago – an author who actively LIES to his audience to conceal something will lose his audience’s loyalty posthaste. If you cannot trust a flat statement made by the writer during Q & A, then there is no point in further conversation with that writer. Robert Jordan has been in the game far too long to be that stupid.
Therefore, TAIM IS NOT DEMANDRED! (Although I was really sorry to see that belief evaporate.) RJ has said, quite bluntly, that he is not. Further, he has gone on to say that we have not yet seen Demandred’s “alter-egoâ€, by which I assume he means that, other than the Dark Friend Socials, or the scene at Shayol Ghul, we have never seen Demandred out in the “real world.†At least, not through Crossroads of Twilight. KoD is another matter.
OTOH, I gotta say that an author who depends on Q & A sessions to clarify things that are left too murky in his books is not doing his job properly. Case in point – Taim finding out where Rand’s kidnappers had taken him and gathering up the Asha’man to save him. If a reader doesn’t find that kind of thing out by reading it in an on-line forum, there’s NO WAY to comprehend this. And, even though I have become an avid reader/participant on these boards, until I read Callandor’s statement half-way up this thread I had not read that explanation ANYWHERE.
Quote: “RAFO =
a) You are right, but I'm not going to confirm it at this time.
b) You are right, but perhaps not in the way you think you are, and I'm not going to confirm it at this time.â€
Dispute: No, RAFO just means “Read And Find Out.†Nothing else. It CERTAINLY doesn’t necessarily mean “You are right.â€
Callandor: 2005-12-30
**The point is that the taint, directly or indirectly, is a cause/reason for fewer channelers.**
But their answer was incomplete -- that's the entire reason for pointing it out. Aes Sedai culling society of male channelers is why there are fewer channelers. The taint is their reasoning for this. Simply saying the taint is the reason for fewer male channelers is incomplete, and misleading.
**Dispute – I’ve seen a lot of conversation on the boards that suggest that this is just one of the earliest versions of the “dead walkingâ€. We didn’t know at this time that this was possible, and I can’t think of any GOOD reason for Fain to have created such an illusion.**
A distraction for Rand. But also, why would Fain be harmed by Rand attacking ghosts?
**If a reader doesn’t find that kind of thing out by reading it in an on-line forum, there’s NO WAY to comprehend this. And, even though I have become an avid reader/participant on these boards, until I read Callandor’s statement half-way up this thread I had not read that explanation ANYWHERE.**
It's slightly implied in Taim's responses after Dumai's Wells:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 55 - Dumai's Wells
Taim turned to Rand, that almost-smile on his lips. "Under the circumstances, I trust you will not hold it against me, violating your command about confronting Aes Sedai. I had reason to visit you in Cairhien, and...." He shrugged. "You look the worse for wear. You will allow me to?" The slight twist of his lips flattened as Rand stepped back from his outstretched hand, pulling Min with him. She hung on tighter than ever.**
But a few more words on the topic wouldn't have hurt.
Anubis: 2006-08-04
**
The taint doesn't cause there to be less amounts of channelers. The taint just drives male channelers mad and eventually kills them.
What makes fewer channelers is Aes Sedai culling out male channelers by gentling them. **
And what do you suppose is the reason/cause for Aes Sedai to be culling out the male channelers?
JakOShadows: 2006-08-04
Anubis:
I always thought it was not intended to happen. The reason it happened was that the AS couldn't manage to come up with a better solution in the chaos of the breaking. Yes, they could have just used them for breeding or some other thing, but I think they just went for the quick solution. And as a result, the gentling and killing of the male channelers caused that gene to be culled. That is if you believe genetics has something to do with it. I believe it is a combination of genetics and your soul that affects your channeling ability. That and also the way male channelers were treated for all those years would also prevent men who could to eventually learn to channel from ever trying. So I think that is what is meant by the culling of the ability to channel.
Anubis: 2006-08-04
Direct cause as opposed to indirect cause. The Aes Sedai went with the only solution available to them and stuck with it because it worked and other solutions were too risky to test.
**This is the best theory ever...such brilliance**
Of course you think it's a good theory, hopefully you wouldnt have posted it if you didn"t.
Note from Tamyrlin: Stuff like that gets posted, Anubis, because the guy behind the curtain has a sense of humor.
Callandor: 2006-08-04
**And what do you suppose is the reason/cause for Aes Sedai to be culling out the male channelers?**
The taint driving them mad -- but it is not the taint itself that is causing fewer male channelers. It's and incomplete answer, and misleading.
AshamanCain: 2008-06-30
I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but in LoC, no one went to the Black Tower to tell them that Rand was captured if I remember correctly. The only way Taim would have known what had happened was if he was in contact with the Black Ajah Galina. Now if he was in contact with the Black Ajah, he probably didn't want the tower to have Rand or possibly a command from the Forsaken. Just my opinion.
natural1dave: 2008-07-08
that's a great point...how exactly did taim and the ashaman know that rand was kidnapped let alone know where to travel to?
also, as for the number of men alive who can channel. i think you can count the names on your fingers and toes of the men the aes sedai have gentled over the last 100 years. that would hardly put a dent in the quantity of men channelers. granted most might've never known they could channel and had lived a normal life if they weren't tested, but looking at the amount of female channelers and the miniscule amount of men gentled it is not far fetched that there are at least a thousand men alive that can channel.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-07-15
natural1dave:
"that's a great point...how exactly did taim and the ashaman know that rand was kidnapped let alone know where to travel to?"
From RJ:
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East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden June 1995 - Karl-Johan Noren reporting
On the Asha'man finding Rand in Lord of Chaos, he said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: "Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B." [exact quote!]. When finding out of the disappearance of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man.
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natural1dave:
"also, as for the number of men alive who can channel. i think you can count the names on your fingers and toes of the men the aes sedai have gentled over the last 100 years. that would hardly put a dent in the quantity of men channelers. granted most might've never known they could channel and had lived a normal life if they weren't tested, but looking at the amount of female channelers and the miniscule amount of men gentled it is not far fetched that there are at least a thousand men alive that can channel."
Saying that there have been fewer than twenty men gentled in the last hundred years is understating it a bit, I think. Elaida says twenty-four have been found in the last twenty years:
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TITLE – Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings
"Four hundred rabble, Alviarin." She felt calmer already, for Alviarin's mouth had thinned. Just a fraction, but she savored any crack in the woman's facade. "If there are that many. Only a fool could believe that more than one or two can channel. At most! In ten years, we have found only six men with the ability. Just twenty-four in the last twenty years. And you know how the land has been scoured. As for Taim... " The name burned her mouth; the only false Dragon ever to escape being gentled once in the hands of Aes Sedai. Not a thing she wanted in the Chronicles under her reign, certainly not until she decided how it should be recorded. At present the Chronicles told nothing after his capture.
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Realnow: 2008-07-28
I believe its in SR, but they pretty much flat out say that the reason that channelers are getting rarer is due to the gentling of men.
Anyone know the quote im talking about? because it really lays this to rest and basically says genetics and the lack of male channelers is the reason for the decline of both quantity and quality of channelers
Ozymandias: 2008-08-01
Realnow,
It's said the Aes Sedai believe thats the reason channelers are getting rarer. However, we've seen significant evidence to disprove this thought as faulty (as are most Aes Sedai assumptions). Egwene has managed to recruit unprecedented numbers of women who can channel, or learn to, to her camp. Perhaps not as many as in the AoL, but a far greater number than would have been imagined a few years earlier. Same with Taim and the Dark Tower.
The problem is that the Aes Sedai are passive in their approach to finding both men and women, and a general stigma around the power means girls who can learn don't come wandering in, and aren't tested in any sort of methodical fashion, as in Seanchan. In fact, if you want a true analysis of the decline of, for lack of a better term, the "channeling gene" all you have to do is contrast the number of sul'dam with the general population of Seanchan... there is a practice of finding girls who can channel there, which gives a much more accurate count.
Taking anything said in the books thats admitted to be speculation on the part of the characters is usually a mistake... and to be honest, its usually even more of a mistake when its a female character saying it, as they're almost universally wrong in their assumptions.
Marie Curie 7: 2008-08-02
Ozymandias:
"It's said the Aes Sedai believe thats the reason channelers are getting rarer. However, we've seen significant evidence to disprove this thought as faulty (as are most Aes Sedai assumptions). Egwene has managed to recruit unprecedented numbers of women who can channel, or learn to, to her camp. Perhaps not as many as in the AoL, but a far greater number than would have been imagined a few years earlier. Same with Taim and the Dark Tower.
The problem is that the Aes Sedai are passive in their approach to finding both men and women, and a general stigma around the power means girls who can learn don't come wandering in, and aren't tested in any sort of methodical fashion, as in Seanchan. In fact, if you want a true analysis of the decline of, for lack of a better term, the "channeling gene" all you have to do is contrast the number of sul'dam with the general population of Seanchan... there is a practice of finding girls who can channel there, which gives a much more accurate count."
Well, RJ said in interviews that the culling of male channelers is the reason that there are fewer in the current Age compared to the numbers in the Age of Legends:
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RJ's blog 2 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"
For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the "present day" sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.
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So, because of the culling of male channelers, the percentage of people with the ability to channel has dropped two- or three-fold from what it was in the Age of Legends. You're right, though, that Aes Sedai have been rather passive at finding girls who can channel, which is another reason that their numbers have dropped, but that's a separate issue - the number of channelers that they could find if they were more aggressive in recruiting would still be two or three times fewer on a percentage basis than the number that could have been found in the Age of Legends.
renningerjp: 2010-07-26
The reason she found so many channelers is because she started recruiting from a lot of places Aes Sedai dont go much like small towns and the like. Places like these that are not visited, would have males that dont go crazy (since those who can learn but are not natural channelers will likely not touch the source) and a greater number of females since they are not recruited by the WT. They would in turn have kids, and thus the genetic pool for channeling remains strong. So not only is it said somewhere that this is the reason, Egwene's strategy, which you mentioned, actually reinforces it instead of dispelling it.