Nazbaque: 2006-02-04

**I see 3 reasons:

1) RJ is the creator of the books, so what he says is basically equal to the books.

2) Sammael had balefire sweeped at him

3) If he escaped that somehow, then the waves of Mashadar coming in would have killed him. He didn't have enough time to travel**

1)I clearly wrote "in the books" and I meant in the books.

2 and 3)"Sammael had to be dead. He had to be" These are the classical words that have been used in I don't know how many stories. Whoever thinks those words is always wrong.

Everyone is missing my point. I wrote "Taim is more likely Sammy than Demmy" MORE LIKELY. If Sammy is dead and therefore can't be Taim then it's even less possible for Demmy to be Taim.

Callandor: 2006-02-04

**1)I clearly wrote "in the books" and I meant in the books.

2 and 3)"Sammael had to be dead. He had to be" These are the classical words that have been used in I don't know how many stories. Whoever thinks those words is always wrong.**

1. It's Jordan's series -- his word is the books.

2. Generally they're wrong -- in this instance, Rand was spot on right.

**Everyone is missing my point. I wrote "Taim is more likely Sammy than Demmy" MORE LIKELY. If Sammy is dead and therefore can't be Taim then it's even less possible for Demmy to be Taim.**

No, Demandred would be more likely since Taim is still alive, and Demandred is still alive. Sammael is dead, and has been for a while. He can't be Taim for simply physical reasons.

Demandred cannot be Taim, because Jordan has specifically eliminated Demandred from being Taim.

Lord of the Dawn: 2006-02-05

***2 and 3)"Sammael had to be dead. He had to be" These are the classical words that have been used in I don't know how many stories. Whoever thinks those words is always wrong. ***

Until I am given a possible way that Sammael could have escaped, I will continue to believe that he is dead for those reasons.

Nazbaque: 2006-02-07

**No, Demandred would be more likely since Taim is still alive, and Demandred is still alive. Sammael is dead, and has been for a while. He can't be Taim for simply physical reasons.**

How do you know Dem is not Taim? Beccause RJ said so. How do you know Sammy is dead? Because RJ said so.

So they are equally likely to be Taim, if you consider RJ's word good enough. It is human to change your mind. RJ is human so he could. What is in the books, can't be changed.

Show me a quote from the books that proves Sammael dead. Until then I'll believe he is not.

Callandor: 2006-02-09

**How do you know Dem is not Taim? Beccause RJ said so. How do you know Sammy is dead? Because RJ said so.**

Yeah, you finally get it.

**So they are equally likely to be Taim, if you consider RJ's word good enough. It is human to change your mind. RJ is human so he could. What is in the books, can't be changed.**

Yes, they're equally likely to be Taim. That's my point -- both cannot be Taim. Demandred has a tad more going for him since both him and Taim are still alive, while Sammael is dead. But, Jordan has refuted Demandred being Taim anyway on several occasions.

Yes, Jordan can change his mind. That is why he does not give a definate answer on any question he has the potential to change his mind on. If there's the possibility, he won't answer. If he wants to keep the mystery going, he won't answer. If he hasn't made up his mind, he won't answer.

HE HAS ANSWERED THESE QUESTIONS. THE ISSUE IS SETTLED.

Rodel Ituralde: 2006-02-11

Ok, nothing to do with the taimandred theory(which has been confermed to be not true by RJ so i dont belive it no matter the evedence) but I have heard a theory about Demandred being behind Asuwana's weird behavoir (no, not Demandred being Asuwana, being behind Asuwana, RJ has already said we havent met Demandred's alter ego). Ishamael was supposed to be behind three major events in the third age: the BA, the Whitecloaks, and the Senchan. The BA has been taken over by Mesanna, and a lot of evidence leads to the theory of semirhage being anath. This theory said that possibly Demandred had taken over control of the Whitecloaks (three forsaken who always worked together in AOL takes over three ishamael projects). I cant remember where I read this but I thought I might as well mention it.

Rodel Ituralde: 2006-02-11

I hadnt read Demandred among the WCs yet when I posted this. Sorry

Nazbaque: 2006-02-14

**Yes, they're equally likely to be Taim. That's my point -- both cannot be Taim. Demandred has a tad more going for him since both him and Taim are still alive, while Sammael is dead. But, Jordan has refuted Demandred being Taim anyway on several occasions.**

Sammael is more likely. There is nothing IN THE BOOKS against it. While the Flinn-insident proves that Demandred can't be Taim.

PS. Callie, you don't have to be rude when someone disagrees with you.

arcaneix: 2006-03-01

taim is demandred.it seems so clear to me.

Callandor: 2006-03-01

**Sammael is more likely. There is nothing IN THE BOOKS against it. While the Flinn-insident proves that Demandred can't be Taim.

PS. Callie, you don't have to be rude when someone disagrees with you.**

1. Jordan said Sammael died. Jordan knows better than you. Jordan does not lie to questions he answers -- he simply will RAFO the ones he doesn't want to answer at that time. Sammael is dead.

2. You're not disagreeing with me.

**taim is demandred.it seems so clear to me.**

Taim is not Demandred. Jordan has confirmed this on several instances, as well as obvious examples in the book.

**Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."**

**Q: "Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?"

A: "I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem."**

Demandred is not Mazrim Taim.

Ishamael666: 2006-03-02

Do you read posts above you, arcaneix?

Demandred≠Taim because RJ said so.

Sammael≠Taim because Sammael's dead.

Eek: 2006-03-02

Rj has stated that Demandred isn't Taim, that we have not yet seen Demandreds alias on screen. He has also stated that Sammael is dead, killed by Mashadar(Spelling probably wrong)

Lews Therin Tell-on-em: 2006-03-31

Um, sorry to be a spoilsport with RJ saying we haven't yet seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen, but that was after COT and before KOD. Possibly a new character (possibly the bloke who fought in tear and then went to Arad Doman, any suggestions?).

JakOShadows: 2006-04-01

Tell-On-Them:

Are you talking Darlin? Because we have seen him before. He was in Cairhein with Caraline Damodred in ACoS. And I believe Rand had seen him before as well. He was either a high lord in Tear or Caemlyn. I forget where, but I don't believe he is a new character. Unless you are talking about someone else, then find the name if you can. But I thought everyone we met in that chapter we had seen before(or was not likely to be Demandred's proxy, like the soldier guarding the heart of the stone).

Callandor: 2006-04-01

I thought they meant Weiramon Saniago, since he's shown some possible Darkfriend tendencies. But, we've seen him for a long time, well before Crossroads, so it's not going to be him as Demandred unless Jordan's quote is wrong.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-01

I can't see Weiramon being a DF. He's an idiot. And one trait we've seen in Darkfriends in high places is that theyre cunning. They have to be, because stupid Darkfriends exposed to that kind of power and position and therefore scrutiny are incredibly vulnerable. The Game of Houses almost demands that that kind of secret be ferreted out. A commoner has no problem hiding it because he's a lowly commoner, and can afford to be a bit more clumsy about it, but Wieramon is the dumbest noble we've met, and in addition, he hasn't been overtly obvious about DF tendencies, meaning he probably isn't. You just can't keep that kind of secret for that long when you're that stupid.

Callandor: 2006-04-02

**I can't see Weiramon being a DF. He's an idiot. And one trait we've seen in Darkfriends in high places is that theyre cunning.**

Again, I said Darkfriend tendencies.

And it can be said that it takes great cunning to be playing the fool to deliberately mess up a persons plans, and keeping them thinking you're just a fool.

**They have to be, because stupid Darkfriends exposed to that kind of power and position and therefore scrutiny are incredibly vulnerable.**

Right, the Forsaken aren't stupid ;)

**A commoner has no problem hiding it because he's a lowly commoner, and can afford to be a bit more clumsy about it, but Wieramon is the dumbest noble we've met, and in addition, he hasn't been overtly obvious about DF tendencies, meaning he probably isn't. You just can't keep that kind of secret for that long when you're that stupid.**

Well, he is somewhat obvious in The Path of Daggers, with the multiple times he changes Rand's orders and "fouls up" yet seems to survive. He seems incredibly stupid, yet he always seems to survive being stupid, showing he's not just what he seems (or he has a better time surviving than Rand does).

The most questioning situation is also in this same section:

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 23 - Fog of War, Storm of Battle

Absorbed in one another, Weiramon and Gedwyn did not hear him riding up on them. Gedwyn was idly playing with his reins, his features cold with contempt. The Tairen was red-faced. "I don't care who you are," he was saying to the black-coated man in a low, hard voice, spittle flying, "I won't take more risk without a command direct from the lips of--"

Abruptly the pair became aware of Bertome, and Weiramon's mouth snapped shut. He glared as if he wanted to kill Bertome. The Asha'man's ever-present smile melted away. The wind gusted, cold and sharp as clouds drifted across the sun, but no colder than Gedwyn's sudden stare. With a small shock Bertome realized the man also wanted to strike him dead on the spot.

Gedwyn's icily murderous gaze did not change, but Weiramon's face underwent a remarkable transformation. The red faded slowly as he produced a smile in an instant, an oily smile with only a trace of mocking condescension. "I've been thinking about you, Bertome," he said heartily. "A pity al'Thor strangled your cousin. With his own hands, I hear. Frankly, I was surprised you came when he called. I've seen him watching you. I fear he plans something more... interesting... for you than thrashing your heels on the floor while his fingers tighten on your throat." Bertome suppressed a sigh, and not only at the fool's clumsiness. A good many thought to manipulate him with Colavaere's death. She had been his favorite cousin, but ambitious beyond reason. Saighan had good claims to the Sun Throne, yet she could not have held it against the strength of Riatin or Damodred either one, let alone both together, not without the open blessings of the White Tower or the Dragon Reborn. Still, she bad been his favorite. What did Weiramon want? Certainly not what it seemed on the surface. Even this Tairen oaf was not that simple.**

Gedwyn of course being an ever so famous Darkfriend, and it's highly unlikely Weiramon would doubt the order came from Rand since he like all the commanders knows Rand is using the Asha'man to great effect in this campaign.

But anyway, whether Weiramon is a Darkfriend of not doesn't matter on this discussion: he's not Demandred in desguise, if it's even the one the person originally meant.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-02

I never really considered that quote in that Light. Or lack thereof, I suppose ;). I still don't think he's a Darkfriend, but that is suspicious, and, as you said, its irrelevant. Halwin Norry killed Asmodean, by the way.

Lews Therin Tell-on-em: 2006-04-07

1st. No, i wasn't talking about Darlin, because he does, as you said, pop up all over the place. No, i meant the "minor" character that rand met in KOD when he went to Tear and this guy said that he apparentky fought in the Stone of Tear (in TSR). Not very likely, but we've got FS hindering every ruler in the joint, wouldn't it perhaps be a GREAT idea if someone went and bugged RAND?!

2. Um, about Norry killing Asmo, is there a thoery that i've missed somewhere?!?!

Farzon: 2006-04-13

I don't think Demandred could be Taim mainly because of the presence of Osan'gar/Dashiva at the Black Tower. It seems the Forsaken like to keep their spheres of influence seperate from each others. As such, the Forsaken would be spread out among the different factions or realms in the world. Also, I would think that we can assume that one Forsaken would not move into the realm of a former, now dead, Forsaken because of how petty they are towards each other. So if we take RJ's statement that we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego in action, then we should try to figure out where he is so that we can go "That's him!" when he finally gets revealed.

To begin I think we can start by eliminating places and factions.

Aginor/Osan'gar->none/Asha'man

Asmodean->peddlers or Aiel Waste

Balthamel/Aran'gar->none/rebel Aes Sedai

Be'lal->Tear

Graendal->Arad Doman

Ishamael/Moridin->everywhere/nowhere

Lanfear/Cyndane->TAR/Moridin's pocket

Mesaana->White Tower

Moghedien->sneaky places, now Moridin's pocket

Rahvin->Andor

Sammael->Illian

Semirhage->Seanchan

Next, we can start examining the other places that are left and see how feasible each are for Demandred to hide in, based on what we know about Demandred and the world in general, and eliminate them if it's unlikely. I only looked at each area's positions of power since Demandred was a general, and he doesn't seem like the type to surround himself with rabble.

Altara - overrun by the Seanchan. Demandred isn't likely to be in a place under the influence of another of the Forsaken (Semirhage).

Amadicia/Whitecloaks - also overrun by the Seanchan, and he isn't likely to be Asunawa or else he would have taken out Fain while "Ordeith" was with Pedron Niall (Fain being a wild card to be death with by all sides).

Tarabon - also overrun by the Seanchan, Ituralde leading other Taraboners against them. Demandred can't be Ituralde because Ituralde has too much history, as well as currently being a pawn of Graendal to some degree.

Cairhien - Game of Houses is way too confusing for someone to just come and blend in. Also, I think it's unlikely Demandred could have held in his hate of Lews Therin for Rand to have held Cairhien as he has.

Murandy - NOT attacked by the Seanchan, despite bordering Seanchan controlled lands, lots of internal fighting with hordes of Dragonsworn, Whitecloaks were causing even more chaos, yet the supposedly weak King Roedran manages to survive all that and is now strengthening his position, with help from the Band of the Red Hand. I think King Roedran could be a good possibility, since he's a leader (like Demandred being a general) among chaos, hiring the Band could count as an attempt to get Mat (Mat left only a short while before the hiring), and we haven't actually seen Roedran, which keeps him within RJ's "have yet to see Demandred's alter ego".

Ghealdan - also lots of chaos, the Prophet being the unofficial head honcho there. But I think Masema (only source of influence within the Dragonsworn) can't be Demandred since he was already a battle hardened soldier with lots of history when Rand went to Shienar, when only Ishamael, Aginor, and Belthamel were unsealed.

Far Madding - no True Source there, no Demandred.

Mayene - too small, influence done by politics (of Berelain), no Demandred.

Aiel - customs prevent anyone other than the Car'a'carn from using the Aiel, and they've been around Rand too long--see the Cairhien reasoning.

Tinkers and Amayar - pacifists, enough said.

Shara - a footnote at best.

Sea Folk - women controlled society, despite the presence of a "Master of the Blades", also focused more on trade, so not as useful to someone like Demandred (presumably).

Borderlands - we've seen Agelmar (for Shienar) too early for him to be Demandred, and Bashere (for Saldaea) is too close to Rand, as well as being Faile's father. Kandor and Arafel's country and military leaders probably also have too much history to be Demandred. And on a side note, since there's not really any other place to put this, not Gareth Bryne either, having met Rand too early on, as well as being displaced by Rahvin.

So, if we assume Demandred is some sort of leader and not a commoner, that the Forsaken don't encroach on each other, that they don't replace each other and that I haven't left out any factions, lands or major suspects, then my best guess for Demandred's identity would be King Roedran of Murandy. My follow up guesses would be some unintroduced general from the Borderlands, followed by someone completely new.

MythMan: 2006-04-14

Taim is not Demandred.

but..

Taim is Demandred.

Wait, don't reply yet :)

My idea here is that Taim is -Rand's- Demandred. Just as Demandred was to LTT, so is Taim to Rand.

This makes more sense if we assume that everything that has happened, will happen again. The lace of an age will be spun again with only small changes in the pattern each age. If that is the case, then the roles each Forsaken had before they were Forsaken, will need to be filled by someone in Rand's life as the Wheel cannot spin them out over again (since they are Forsaken and still around).

New people, old roles.

It's all about balance.

New Forsaken: 2006-04-14

I think the key to finding Demandred has to be in LoC. We see him in the beginning and at the end. He asks the GLotD, "haven't I done well." This must be refering to letting "the Lord of Chaos Rule." So what happened that let chaos rule. The problem I see is that Rand's capture is huge in the book and he obviously was part of Mesana's scheme but we dont have direct involement by a male that we can see. Another huge thing that happened in LoC is the founding of the Black Tower. Another incident was that the Saldeans came to Andor.

We also have in a later book one of the other Forsaken yelling at Aginor that he and Demandred were supposed to keep an eye on Rand. So putting these together it has to be something to do with the Black Tower. I think that Demandred is in the Black Tower as someone we have not seen yet because knows the four renegades that attack Rand later in PoD. This also puts Demandred with male channelers, Messana with the female channelers, and Semmirhage with the Senchan (sp?)and their female channelers. This shows the three penetrating the three strongest groups of channelers in Randland. No offense to the wise ones or Sea folk is intended in that statement.

JakOShadows: 2006-04-14

Mythman:

That's an interesting idea there. Kind of like Min shares very similar characteristics to Ilyena, or it is implied. The only problem is it doesn't seem like a necessary thing to be required. I could see needing a woman for Rand to fall in love with, but in the big scheme of things, compared to the forsaken and rebellions, the dissension created by Taim doesn't seem to be essential to the end result. But I agree it is entirely possible, given all the clues that we have seen of him. It could also be said that it wasn't necessarily what the pattern was trying to do, but it was something that would naturally happen. The person who is second best always feels like he is being slighted in someway because people like the other guy better. It could just be human nature repeating itself.

evilbeaver: 2006-04-17

Callandor, give it up before you get an aneurism...

No matter HOW many times RJ says "Taim is not Demandred," or that "Sammael is dead," or that "Olver is not GC," there are always going to be a slew of people who will continue to disagree.

It's like the evolution debate going on. You can point till you're blue in the face and say "These are FACTS." However, these people will just sit and tell you that they don't believe in facts, they have their feelings.

It is a really sad situation when the author of a well planned-out, well thought-out series states FLATLY that something isn't so, and the people turn around and say that the author must be wrong about his own series.

Just ignore them and they'll go away ;)

MythMan: 2006-04-17

Jak:

Consider this along with what I said..

Rand is -not- the Creator's champion, he is the Champion of the Wheel. It is his job (and the other two as well) to bring Balance back where it has started to tip out. Remember, it is said in one of the books that in ages past, the Dragon has been turned to the Shadow.. I'd have to find the exact quote, but I cannot think of a better example of balance going where balance is needed.

It is the nature of any wheel to have a need to be balanced. We get hit over the head with the concept of balance in these books from almost the very first pages. The Wheel -wants- to achieve balance, it seeks it..so when something happens in the ages to toss the Wheel out of balance, It will spin out what it needs in order to regain that balance.

In this age..Rand, Matt and Perin. Three that the Wheel spins patterns -around- in order to achieve balance. The neat thing about it is, the Wheel should use a similar method to achive balance again..in other words..drift to what it knows. Once in an age past, the Wheel spun out LTT and his 100 companions. Wouldn't it make sense to try that again? Spin out Rand and some other version of his 100 companions?

Therfore, balance should happen somewhere as far as the Forsaken are considered as well. It just makes sense from a balance point of view, that the Light should have a counter part for each one of the Forsaken. The irony here of course is that the Forsaken are outside of the Wheel to some degree as they exist and cannot be 'respun' back into the pattern. Therefore, something similar, but just a bit different, should be spun into thier place instead.

This is of course all the preamble to my first theory. I have a hunch on my next reading that I should be able to match up the counterparts of balance through events. I think we'll find that some major character vanishes or spins out each time one of the Forsaken do. Likewise, everytime a Forsaken plays too much a part in events, another major character arrives.

Canan Urgas: 2006-04-18

Can people please leave taim alone? he is his very own self and always has been!!! All it is is that he wants to be like the other male forsaken

JakOShadows: 2006-04-18

Mythman:

I know the pattern requires balance. But there is also the fact that the pattern changes ever so slightly with each turning. And would you not agree whether or not there is someone in this age who plays the exact same role that Demandred plays in the aol is fairly minor. I'm not going to say its impossible, because I believe it is quite possible it is, but the fact of it is there is no evidence to solidly back it up.

Callandor: 2006-04-19

**No matter HOW many times RJ says "Taim is not Demandred," or that "Sammael is dead," or that "Olver is not GC," there are always going to be a slew of people who will continue to disagree.**

All the more important to show how wrong they are.

**Rand is -not- the Creator's champion, he is the Champion of the Wheel. It is his job (and the other two as well) to bring Balance back where it has started to tip out. Remember, it is said in one of the books that in ages past, the Dragon has been turned to the Shadow.. I'd have to find the exact quote, but I cannot think of a better example of balance going where balance is needed.**

That was Ishamael that said the Dragon had turned previously, and I can get the quote where Rand says the exact opposite if you're truly in need of it. But I consider it moot since Jordan effectively said the Dragon never has turned with his comment "You believed Ishamael?!" in regards to the issue.

The Dragon has never turned.

**The irony here of course is that the Forsaken are outside of the Wheel to some degree as they exist and cannot be 'respun' back into the pattern.**

Where's this stated? You're going to have to explain why Jordan says the exact opposite:

**Q: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man. Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things alltogether?

A: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.

Q: So threads and souls are the same thing?



A: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment.

The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.

Q: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

A: What? Do they have souls you mean?

Q: Yeah, and how do their threads work.



A: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.**

greatwolf: 2006-12-12

Callandor, your arguement against Taimandred seems to be based on what jordan said in an interview.However, RJ has repeatedly warned that he'll not divulge information that he intends to reveal in forthcoming books. i agree with him, spoilers are no good.Well, most of the time.If Taim is to be reveled as Demandred, i dont see RJ letting us off the hook till he's good and ready. He has never said no right out that i recall. Bogus? how do you want to interpret that?I suggest you put that fine mind of yours to tackling the theory's points on its merit without allowing that statement to limit discussion.

As for the theory itself, ablar made some fine points and managed to link the two pretty well in my opinion.But i thought the relationship btw Taim, Dashiva and Demandred is especially telling.RJ has said there are no new forsaken and why. If so, why would Dashiva allow Taim to command LT's death? As aginor, he's one of the forsaken, far above mere darkfriends as we see with delana/arangar. Any of the forsaken would have taken the opportunity to take over.And he was one of the strongest in the AOL, with more knowledge than anyone in htis age who managed to teach himself unless he knows otherwise.

The other problem is that it would be impossible to explain taim any other way than as demandred.Consider for example,Taim's age. Rand was certain he must have been channeling for 15yrs-how?

If taim had channelled that long he'd have slowed. meaning he's probably much older and has channeled even more than 15yrs. How? How does he survive the taint that long?As a darkfriend? In saldea? And rand says to be suspicious of anyone who learns too fast(forget taim's blushes at that point)yet taim picked Travelling rather fast. he teaches all sorts, with no one to teach him and rand has never wondered where he learnt it all.How do you learn testing except in a group setting?In a few years in saldea?And why was he so confident with rand and the saldeans all ready to kill him unless he was warded? and who taught him wards? Rand couldn't do any of that without Asmodean's teaching.Who taught taim? that he could know of wards and predict what sammel could do with a ward? Logain is aware how much he knows, he couldn't accept that rand with a few yrs of channeling knew enough to cleanse th taint that couldn't be done in the AOL.

Perhaps you should reconsider your stand.

greatwolf: 2006-12-15

here's one of the quotes i was looking for:

W.H.

**wonderful news**

"you were responsible for watching him,Osan'gar," she went on, her voice caressing every syllable."you and demandred"

It places demandred very close to rand, rand's his charge. the only other possibility is dobraine and that doesn't fit at all.

Callandor: 2006-12-16

**Callandor, your arguement against Taimandred seems to be based on what jordan said in an interview.However, RJ has repeatedly warned that he'll not divulge information that he intends to reveal in forthcoming books. i agree with him, spoilers are no good.Well, most of the time.If Taim is to be reveled as Demandred, i dont see RJ letting us off the hook till he's good and ready. He has never said no right out that i recall. Bogus? how do you want to interpret that?I suggest you put that fine mind of yours to tackling the theory's points on its merit without allowing that statement to limit discussion.**

There are no merits to the theories points, because Jordan has already shown the entire theory to be false. Repeatedly.

Jordan doesn't give answers to those questions which he wants to save for later, or might change his mind on. He's given the exact same answer about Taimandred many times -- obviously, he's more than fine with us knowing that Taim is not Demandred. Continuing in such delusion is just that: deluding yourself.

Here, have a few more:

**Date: 2003-01-07 | Location: Barnes and Noble

Type: Book Signing | Questioner: WinespringBrother

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

A: No, that is totally bogus.**

**Date: 2005-09-03 | Location: DragonCon 2005

Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Isabela

Q: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

A: I was surprised... but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.**

**The other problem is that it would be impossible to explain taim any other way than as demandred.Consider for example,Taim's age. Rand was certain he must have been channeling for 15yrs-how?**

It's not impossible to explain Taim without invoking Taimandred. For example: Taim can be Forsaken trained rather than being an actual Forsaken.

As for age, that's another thing Jordan has cleared up:

**Date: 2005-09-02 | Location: DragonCon 2005

Type: Book Signing | Questioner: WinespringBrother

Q: How old is Taim and has he slowed?

A: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I'll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.**

And he clarifies specifically Rand's judgement of Taim in his blog (10/04/2005):

**For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.**

Look for yourself: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

**Perhaps you should reconsider your stand.**

There's absolutely nothing to reconsider. Taim is Taim. Taim is almost certainly Forsaken trained. What's else there to reconsider? The entire argument, every single point, of Taimandred has been revoked and shown as false.

**It places demandred very close to rand, rand's his charge. the only other possibility is dobraine and that doesn't fit at all.**

Amazingly, it is possible that Demandred can keep a watch on Rand and the Black Tower -- without being Taim himself.

lordoftwilight: 2006-12-18

Well Taim may be demandred but I blieve it more lickly he would be Morridin. For a couple of reasons, one being what he makes the people wear: rd and black, these are colors assciated with Morridin. Secondly tin is manipulating Rand like Ishmeal/Morridin would since he is a philosipher. Another point Demandred liked Illyena(please excuse mispelling), LTT's old Wife/ lover. SO if Taim was Demandred he would probably go after Rand's women(not that Rand owns them but the women are Rands and Rand their man). Tim in the end of CoT says: "let the Lord of Chaos Rule". This would be associated with taim in the begging of one of the books(can't remeber which) where he is playing the old game with the fisher, and trying to control it and win the gam into where the DO would win. Also if Memory serves Demondred was more combat and millitiristic and was honored and insulted from the honors of LTT. So when Taim said:"I sent him away, Taim said."What good are swords? I can barely avoid stabbing myself, and I've never felt the lack. They have the power, now." This would be something that someone who would not say, like a Philospher who studies history and human patterns and bases theories off of them. LIke Ishmeal was in the age of Legends.

Also LTT would have a bigger revenge fettish against someone who made him kill his wife and all of his kin like Ishmeal did. So if anyone Damendred would more likly be be Dashiva, since he hates what LTT did to him.

If Dashiva isn't Demondred then it would be the reincarnation of Asmoden since they both would hate LTT/Rand. Demandred for the insults of the Age of Legends and Asmoden would hate Rands guts for binding him(asmoden) against his will for his suirvival against the wreath of the other Forsaken

greatwolf: 2006-12-19

Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Isabela

Q: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

A: I was surprised... but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.**

**The other problem is that it would be impossible to explain taim any other way than as demandred.Consider for example,Taim's age. Rand was certain he must have been channeling for 15yrs-how?**

Callandor, i admire your persistence but it shouldn't be carried too far. i asked for proof outside the interviews. As far as the series is presently concerned, the majority of proof still points to taimandred! It would take RJ some juggling to come up with anything else and likely still wouldn't wash. Not unless Taim developed the same hatred for LT that demandred had(as evidenced by perrin's nose among others) and LT suddenly transfered his feelings for demandred to Taim. i doubt RJ will hold to this bit wordtwisting for long, and it wont be any surprise when he does. But hold on to it if you wish.

***It's not impossible to explain Taim without invoking Taimandred. For example: Taim can be Forsaken trained rather than being an actual Forsaken.***

Forsaken trained? in how many months that the forsaken have been loose? Trained enough to intimidate osan'gar?standing in a position of clear authority among DFs who can channel? like a general? whose nose happens to resemble Demandred's?

And if you want to claim one of the forsaken sent him, why then does he resent playing second fiddle to rand so? Separating the two will only raise more Qs.

***As for age, that's another thing Jordan has cleared up:

**Date: 2005-09-02 | Location: DragonCon 2005

Type: Book Signing | Questioner: WinespringBrother

Q: How old is Taim and has he slowed?

A: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I'll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.**

And he clarifies specifically Rand's judgement of Taim in his blog (10/04/2005):

**For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.***

Another red herring. if he has slowed, its because he's been channeling. how long? a year? ten? how much fatigue does a channeler have to go through before age shows on his face? why did the black ajah go to so much effort to free him? just another guy? would demandred keep watch on rand by proxy(after a direct command by the DO?)

***There's absolutely nothing to reconsider. Taim is Taim. Taim is almost certainly Forsaken trained. ***What's else there to reconsider? ***

A portion of wisdom lies in knowing when to give up.

TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-19

Alright everyone this is my first posting. I have to say most of the evidence in the books seems to point to Taim being Demandred. Mr. Jordan's comments seem to defuse that. So at this point all the arguments for and against have been laid on the table and I think the question now is--how do you explain Taim acting SO MUCH like Demandred if he's not Demandred. Perhaps Demandred used some sort of Compulsion that imprints a portion of his persoality onto Taim or makes a link with him that allows him at times to directly control him. I don't have the books with me to get quotes, but the wording from some of the chapters with Taim is eerily similar to the wording in the section about Demandred in the reference book. I just find it strange that RJ would make Taim act so much like Demandred without some sort of connection. If anyone has any ideas let me know. If I sound ridiculous let me know too.

Callandor: 2006-12-20

**Well Taim may be demandred but I blieve it more lickly he would be Morridin. For a couple of reasons, one being what he makes the people wear: rd and black, these are colors assciated with Morridin.**

They are his colors, but those that serve him -- not himself -- are seen to wear them. Those like Cyndane and Moghedien. And being assoicated with Moridin is not the same as being Moridin.

**Secondly tin is manipulating Rand like Ishmeal/Morridin would since he is a philosipher.**

You're going to have to be more specific than this and give examples. Taim really isn't one for manipulating Rand so much, unless it's in one key area (and even then it's not so much manipulating Rand but working towards the goal of): splitting Rand from the Aes Sedai. That's in line with what the Shadow stands to benefit -- hardly actions specific to an individual.

**If Dashiva isn't Demondred then it would be the reincarnation of Asmoden since they both would hate LTT/Rand.**

Dashiva has been clearly shown to be Osan'gar, the transmigrated Forsaken that was once Aginor.

But there are many problems with Moridin being Taim, two obvious ones being:

1. Taim has been in the series throughout the time Ishamael is dead, and even mentioned prior to this. We've seen him on screen since Lord of Chaos, and he was clearly an actual figure throughout The Fires of Heaven (since Bashere was chasing him). All through this, there's a clear fact: Ishamael was dead. Moridin did not appear on the screen until A Crown of Swords, and being generous might have a timeline that extends to late Lord of Chaos (but that's being very generous with speculation). Taim, again, showed up in the very first chapters of Lord of Chaos. He's there for about a month before it's even likely Dashiva showed up. How can Moridin be factoring into this, since he was awaiting transmigration at the time?

2. Taim still exhibits the characteristics of Taim. This goes all the way to the most recent information:

**TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER EPILOGUE - Remember the Old Saying

The palace the Murandian had spoken of was just that, two stories of white marble topped with pointed domes and spires in the style of Saldaea, separated from a large space of bare, hard-packed ground by the white platform. It was not large among palaces, but most nobles lived in buildings far smaller and less grand.**

The work Taim has been doing on the Black Tower wasn't really done until around The Path of Daggers or Winter's Heart -- and it's in the Saldaean style, which would fit naturally with Taim since he is Saldaean. Would be quite a strange thing if Moridin was designing palaces this way.

**Callandor, i admire your persistence but it shouldn't be carried too far. i asked for proof outside the interviews. As far as the series is presently concerned, the majority of proof still points to taimandred! It would take RJ some juggling to come up with anything else and likely still wouldn't wash. Not unless Taim developed the same hatred for LT that demandred had(as evidenced by perrin's nose among others) and LT suddenly transfered his feelings for demandred to Taim. i doubt RJ will hold to this bit wordtwisting for long, and it wont be any surprise when he does. But hold on to it if you wish.**

1. Yes, you're refusing to deal with the overabundance of directly stated interview questions for... what reasons again? None? Because you don't want to? And you try to phrase this as if I'm the one whose delusional, here. Pssh.

2. The majority of nothing points to Taim being Demandred. It's like saying if you eliminate all the evidence against it, the books clearly point to Egwene being the Dragon Reborn!

3. It would not take Jordan some "juggling" for the completely circumstantial and greatly puffed up theory that is Taimandred to be completely wrong -- after all, he's stated it at least FOUR TIMES that we have on record here.

**Forsaken trained? in how many months that the forsaken have been loose? Trained enough to intimidate osan'gar?standing in a position of clear authority among DFs who can channel? like a general? whose nose happens to resemble Demandred's?**

Oh, my, it seems you've caught me. There couldn't possibly have been a Forsaken that was freed since around 983 NE (about 15 years before the series began). Oh, no, wait there was: Ishamael.

Maybe that is why Taim has connotations of Forsaken, and still utilizes Moridin's colors -- because he was trained by Ishamael, who is Moridin.

There's more than enough time for Taim to be a Forsaken trained Dreadlord.

**And if you want to claim one of the forsaken sent him, why then does he resent playing second fiddle to rand so? Separating the two will only raise more Qs.**

Uh, because Rand is Rand? Because Taim is an ambitions bastard? Because Taim is an arrogant bastard? It's not some impassable point that Taim just hates Rand and hates playing the charade that he does.

**Another red herring. if he has slowed, its because he's been channeling. how long? a year? ten? how much fatigue does a channeler have to go through before age shows on his face? why did the black ajah go to so much effort to free him? just another guy? would demandred keep watch on rand by proxy(after a direct command by the DO?)**

It is truly amazing that you're somehow stooping to the level of blatantly disregarding a statement by the author, regarding this specific series, FROM THE AUTHORS OWN BLOG.

How much fatigue does a channeler have to go through for it to show? I don't know, and I really don't care -- Jordan specifically said that it did.

How long has Taim been channeling? Quite an important question, and one that isn't known yet. Point is that Taim is in his late twenties, and his age was due to being travel worn.

Why did the Black Ajah go to so much effort to free him? Maybe because they were ordered to by someone who knew what Taim was and how he could be important? Someone who wanted him freed, and didn't like that he was trapped? Maybe someone who had previously been using Taim before for their own goals?

Would Demandred watch Rand by proxy? I don't see why not (he is known for using them...). And there's always the possibility that Demandred is watching Rand directly anyway -- just not as Taim. And it's pathetic to say that Demandred is watching over Rand, so he must be Taim. Taim hasn't seen Rand in going on 4 books now. Taim's almost entirely been off by himself with the Black Tower -- not watching Rand.

**A portion of wisdom lies in knowing when to give up.**

I'm sorry, was this supposed to be directed at me? It seems perfectly suited to be a statement to no one, but is truly just you voicing your own thoughts.

Again, there's nothing to reconsider. There are at least four direct statements by Jordan saying that Demandred is not Taim. Every single "reason" and argument for Taimandred has been completely refuted. The only people that persist in the nonsense are ones like you who have to exclude half of what they do not want to deal with because they cannot give up their delusions.

**So at this point all the arguments for and against have been laid on the table and I think the question now is--how do you explain Taim acting SO MUCH like Demandred if he's not Demandred.**

It entirely lies in two things:

1. The "evidence" for Taim being Demandred is entirely circumstantial. "Taim doesn't like being in Rand's shadow, so he must be Demandred." Yeah, or he just hates Rand and thinks a lot of himself. Quite a lot of people have these same reactions.

2. Taim is Forsaken trained.

That right there is all you need to know.

JakOShadows: 2006-12-20

TheDragonMustLive:

We haven't seen Taim act so much like Demandred. He uses the same phrasings for somethings and why not if he spent several years training with Demandred or Ishmael. And if your refering to the "so-called Aeil" statement, any of the forsaken might have used that phrase too. So I don't believe it is too far of a stretch to say that Taim could have just picked up their attitudes by training with them.

LordofTwilight:

It's fairly certain that Dashiva is Osan'gar, because he didn't show up at the forsaken coffee hour in KoD nor did we see him in CoT. And we know Osan'gar was killed in WH. Not to mention, as far as we know, Asmo cannot be reborn in any fashion because the DO said so himself in the end of LoC. So I'm pretty sure you missed the mark there. As for Ishmael being Taim, it is possible I guess, but it definitely wouldn't be his MO. Look at the first three books, he never once posed as someone else to get to Rand. He may have had some hand in training Taim, since we know Taim most likely got some training before Demandred escaped the bore. And we know he is considered on of the more successful darkfriends, so he could have a close connection to the forsaken even if he isn't one of them. Mainly, it just seems as if Ishy has bigger things to plan right now, rather than assume the identity of Taim.

greatwolf: 2006-12-22

hmmph. you guys just do what you do best, take something simple and complicate it.

TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-23

I would have no problem leaving it at that except for one thing -- the thing that starts him on this fit of rage is when Rand says that since he is the first Asha'man, that makes Taim the second. That is the DEFINING POINT of Demandred's hatred of LTT. It's not just a simple dislike of not being on top, it's an absolute personal hatred of being second to a specific individual for your whole life. I could understand Taim being irritated by that comment, but to go into this fit of rage over it can't be explained by just arrogance or being trained by the Forsaken. I'm not arguing for Taimandred here, but I just feel that there has to be more of a connection there somehow. Just the feeling I get.

Callandor: 2006-12-24

**hmmph. you guys just do what you do best, take something simple and complicate it.**

Hmm, where have I heard that before? Oh, that's right, I have it as part of my signature.

And if the best you're reduced to is saying "It's complicated" as some from of objection, when what your advocating has been completely ruled out, do what is left to you: sulk.

And even the implication that Taim being Demandred is somehow more simple is quite laughable.

**I would have no problem leaving it at that except for one thing -- the thing that starts him on this fit of rage is when Rand says that since he is the first Asha'man, that makes Taim the second. That is the DEFINING POINT of Demandred's hatred of LTT.**

Taim is not Demandred. I've quoted Jordan saying this FOUR distinct times.

Again, just because Taim is an arrogant bastard, or that Rand is an a******, or whatever other human trait they happen to express does not mean that Taim must be Demandred.

**I could understand Taim being irritated by that comment, but to go into this fit of rage over it can't be explained by just arrogance or being trained by the Forsaken. I'm not arguing for Taimandred here, but I just feel that there has to be more of a connection there somehow. Just the feeling I get.**

If Taim isn't Demandred, what's the connection here? Taim is still Taim....

You're entire argument is that Taim's "fit of rage" (which hardly fits what happened in the first place) is so out of the ordinary that it is distinct to what Demandred's past is like. So, if it's distinct to just Demandred, and Taim is expressing it, and you're arguing for this... I think you left out the punch line where you said "Taim is Demandred."

greatwolf: 2006-12-25

Callandor, assuming Taim isn't demandred, what do we have? We have Taim sharing same hook nose profile with demandred. why? linking and fordaken trained wont explain that, so we'll call it COINCIDENCE. Why does he share the same half smile? Just another COINCIDENCE! And of course the hatred they both have for LTT(and viceversa) just happens to be coincidence based on the fact that Taim was trained by an arrogant cuss(or some such).

And he ORDERS Dashiva and co to kill (COINCIDENTALLY AT THE SAME TIME DEMANDRED DOES)to kill Rand/LT despite the fact that the DO's ordered otherwise(and he's not even one of the forsaken).

BTW, where did you get evidence he's forsaken trained? or just another fancy hallucination?

When was he trained? there was very little time between TEoTW and his capture in TGH. Perhaps he was trained in captivity?

I mustn't forget. RJ says there no new forsaken, something about being contemptous of channelers of this age-yet dashiva went against rand on his orders.

You know if RJ admits he's been playing aes sedai word games on this one, you'll going to be very red in the face. If he dont, the series will do a little somersault.

Callandor: 2006-12-29

**Callandor, assuming Taim isn't demandred, what do we have? We have Taim sharing same hook nose profile with demandred. why? linking and fordaken trained wont explain that, so we'll call it COINCIDENCE. Why does he share the same half smile? Just another COINCIDENCE! And of course the hatred they both have for LTT(and viceversa) just happens to be coincidence based on the fact that Taim was trained by an arrogant cuss(or some such).**

1. They both have hooked noses? Is this the best you can do, really? Look to Bashere, Faile, Deira -- or do this short cut: look to just about any Saldaean, because they standardly have hooked noses. Taim is Saldaean. No way we can explain this match with him and Demandred....

2. Half smile? Again, another thing that is hardly unique like, say, one eye or one arm. Rand has done it, Mat has done it, Aram has done it, Fain has done it, Elayne has done it, Laras has done it, Leane has done it, etc. etc. Do you want to include "small" smiles? How about grimaces? Smirks? More and more and more and more. And the examples I gave were just up till The Fires of Heaven. It can be from just Taim's inside knowledge of what he is doing (which is NOT being Demandred for one), not just because it so magically has to be that Taim is Demandred.

3. Where is Taim said to hate Lews Therin? Demandred hates Lews Therin; Taim as far as we know considers him nothing other than what everyone else does: dead, and a man of legend/myth/history. Demandred transfered his hate to Rand, yes, but whoopie. So did all the Forsaken. And as shocking as it sounds, the Forsaken aren't alone in their hatred of Rand. To give just one example, take Fain. Is Mazrim Taim Fain because of this hatred they share? To give another take Toram Riatin. Is he Taim because of this hatred they share? How about Rochaid? Or Gedwyn? So on and so on. Furthermore, Taim hating Rand is hardly a known thing. He can just see him as important and annoying. Niall didn't hate Rand, but he sure found him important enough to use him, and certainly was annoyed that his actions were ruining his plans (though I guess you could argue he wouldn't attribute them to Rand himself, but I'd say it serves my point).

All three of these examples are completely circumstantial.

**And he ORDERS Dashiva and co to kill (COINCIDENTALLY AT THE SAME TIME DEMANDRED DOES)to kill Rand/LT despite the fact that the DO's ordered otherwise(and he's not even one of the forsaken).**

Yeah, he ordered them to kill Rand, when it's quite likely he has no idea that Dashiva was a Forsaken (a la Liandrin and Moghedien early on, Suroth and Semirhage, and Alviarin and Mesaana). As well, I believe you're misconstruing the situation -- Taim was obviously shocked that Dashiva was involved, and it would seem hardly correct to say that he ordered him.

The timing is also suspect for when the order was truly lifted, due to the entire reason the order was lifted was due to finding out Rand had the Choedan Kal and was intending to Cleanse saidin -- something known in The Path of Daggers. Plus, why would Osan'gar be openly talking about the "simple probablilities" of the next attack on Rand killing him, when there is still a standing order to not kill Rand? Moridin's words in Winter's Heart seem to be nothing more than confirmation of what has been already decided -- before the attack.

A final point is that there have been two ordered attacks on Rand by Taim that we know of. Only one was followed by Demandred's order of one of the people (Kisman), and that was the attack to go ahead on Rand in Far Madding. Dashiva was not involved with that attack, though the other four were, which shows nothing other than that Taim can be an important and powerful Darkfriend -- like say a Dreadlord. And you would think the fact that Taim and Demandred both make separate orders for the same thing as if they didn't know of each others orders would tip you off that they're not one in the same (as has been confirmed, again, previously by Jordan).

**BTW, where did you get evidence he's forsaken trained? or just another fancy hallucination?

When was he trained? there was very little time between TEoTW and his capture in TGH. Perhaps he was trained in captivity?**

1. Because Taim is not Demandred -- see above.

2. Taim has advanced knowledge prior to meeting Rand that more than implies being trained, IE: knowing gateway and Traveling are synonymous, knowing the weave for finding the talent to channel, Healing, all the advanced weaves he has taught all the Asha'man, and all the other weaves he's kept in reserve for his private classes.

3. Taim knows the trick for ignoring heat and cold. There is not one single solitary example of a 3rd Ager knowing this trick without being taught it in the series -- but Mazrim Taim. Exceptions that important do not exist in this series.

4. Taim has from his own admission been channeling for quite some time, and estimated to be channeling for even longer (though his age being more established by Jordan -- but still sadly vague -- does shorten it a bit). From what he's said about teaching other men to channel it's been quite a few years. Jordan himself has said Taim has slowed, which takes time to actually get the effect. And Taim is a sparker.

**Date: 2005-09-02 | Location: DragonCon 2005

Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: WinespringBrother

Q: Was Taim a sparker or a learner? I.E., did Taim had the spark or could he learn how to channel?

A: He was born with the Spark.**

Putting this all together means Taim has been channeling for a long time, a lot of the time (training channelers does take a lot of One Power usage), and has absolutely no known effects of the taint. If he's important enough in the Darkfriend structure, there's a simple answer for this: he's been given black cords so there would be none to exceptionally little taint effect on him.

At the very least of this Taim has been taught things with the One Power. He's been channeling for some time, so that puts his first usage before the start of the series. The only people that could give him that knowledge are Forsaken, and the only one to do that early enough is Ishamael. The fact that it explains Taim's actions later on in the series (such as the focus on dividing Rand from Aes Sedai, the colors of Moridin) speaks all the stronger to this notion.

And I already explained when Taim would've been trained in a prior post, if you'd actually take the time to read them (back on 12/20/06):

**Oh, my, it seems you've caught me. There couldn't possibly have been a Forsaken that was freed since around 983 NE (about 15 years before the series began). Oh, no, wait there was: Ishamael.

Maybe that is why Taim has connotations of Forsaken, and still utilizes Moridin's colors -- because he was trained by Ishamael, who is Moridin.

There's more than enough time for Taim to be a Forsaken trained Dreadlord.**

**I mustn't forget. RJ says there no new forsaken, something about being contemptous of channelers of this age-yet dashiva went against rand on his orders.**

Yeah, great, thanks for knowing what I continually point out to people. Any bearing here? None that I can see.

**You know if RJ admits he's been playing aes sedai word games on this one, you'll going to be very red in the face. If he dont, the series will do a little somersault.**

Yes, please, do tell how this statement can be Aes Sedai "word games:"

**Date: 2003-01-07 | Location: Barnes and Noble

Type: Book Signing | Questioner: WinespringBrother

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

A: No, that is totally bogus.**

Hmm, yes, I can see all kinds of ways to get around that. And nevermind the fact that there are three other statements that directly support that clear and concise statement of refutation. You're thinking I'm going to be "red in the face?" Please. My view has already been vindicated four times over -- it's your view that has been smashed to bits and tossed out into a river, yet you're for some reason still holding onto that delusion.

vardene: 2007-01-02

Briefly callandor, i could go on with this but what'd be the point? It wont change what jordan has said or your opinion. If jordan had said "no demandred's not taim he's..." there'd have been an end to and speculation, but as things stand, the doubts will remain...

vardene: 2007-01-04

*** My view has already been vindicated four times over -- it's your view that has been smashed to bits and tossed out into a river, yet you're for some reason still holding onto that delusion.***

Callandor, if RJ had said right out"Demandred is..." he would have killed all speculation, but as long as he allows doubts, there'll be theories and Taimandred happens to be the strongest of these, it cant be wished away or shut off. i'm not even half convinced with your theories. If you'd brought up a more convincing candidate, perhaps i'd have considered.

*** yet you're for some reason still holding onto that delusion.***

Have you read TPoD? chap 27,

** Callandor is flawed.. ..inducing a wildness of the mind.. ..God knows what insanity..

Do you consider yourself sane? or think someone delusional? Perhaps you think you're jordan? or God? Any voices?

Callandor: 2007-01-04

**Briefly callandor, i could go on with this but what'd be the point? It wont change what jordan has said or your opinion. If jordan had said "no demandred's not taim he's..." there'd have been an end to and speculation, but as things stand, the doubts will remain...**

**Callandor, if RJ had said right out"Demandred is..." he would have killed all speculation, but as long as he allows doubts, there'll be theories and Taimandred happens to be the strongest of these, it cant be wished away or shut off.**

1. Please. Don't even try to pass this off as if you're doing me any favors by backing away.

2. Jordan has said exactly this. Four times in fact:

**Date: 2003-01-07 | Location: Barnes and Noble

Type: Book Signing | Questioner: WinespringBrother

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

A: No, that is totally bogus.**

Again, I can't see how this is murky or has any wiggle room.

**Date: 2005-09-03 | Location: DragonCon 2005

Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Isabela

Q: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

A: I was surprised... but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.**

Hey, in case you can't pick up on it, allow my to do useless translating: "Yeah, it's totally bogus (see the above quote). I would've said so once it was first brought up, but part of my fun/job is to allow you to keep these ridiculous notions for some time -- even if you go to extreme lengths."

**Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."

A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."**

What was it that you said about Jordan stating simple things? Something about "No, Demandred is not Taim...."

**Q: "Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?"

A: "I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem."**

Well, now this is just getting ridiculous, right? Apparently not, since you continue to need to have this delusion maintained in light of MULTIPLE CLEAR AND UNCONFLICTING STATEMENTS TO THE CONTRARY.

**Do you consider yourself sane? or think someone delusional? Perhaps you think you're jordan? or God? Any voices?**

I've never heard that one before! You know it's strange, you'd think there might be some type of award for such things -- oh, wait, there is! link

Again, please. I'm not the one trying to somehow completely evade the issue of the author saying the view I'm pushing for is flat wrong. I'm not the one saying "If only Jordan had said this..." when in fact he has on four separate occasions. That you'd stoop low enough to try to be witty and original with going with my screen name -- and drawing pathetic implications of it, instead of, I don't know, dealing with the issue is a bit sad. But what do you have left to do, honestly? You have no evidence that hasn't been flatly contraverted.

Davian93: 2007-01-05

****Taimandred happens to be the strongest of these, it cant be wished away or shut off. ****

Yes it can. RJ already killed it. Do you need a signed letter from him to have this theory go away. Demandred is not Taim and Taim is not Demandred. Its not gonna happen.

Catalyst: 2007-01-06

Unless I am mistaken, Jordan said it right out that Taim is not Demandred. If I am mistaken, we continue to argue. Yet who can he be? In the books, in Demandred's POV it is not written where he stabilized himself. And about Taim... is it said right out that he is a DF? He might think that Rand is a false Dragon and Taim himself the true. And he gathers his cronies because... he is regathering the Hundred Companions, perhaps? Or some other reason? Read, theorize, theoritate (I don't know english well and I don't know the correct word) and write it down.

Callandor: 2007-01-08

**And about Taim... is it said right out that he is a DF?**

No, but it doesn't need to be, and there's really no other option to explain what he's done. His knowledge, his actions, and his orders all point specifically to that Taim is not on the Light's side. I mean he knew exactly what Kisman, Gedwyn, Torval, and Rochaid were when he ordered them to kill Rand -- twice. There's no other way to explain his comment at the end of Knife of Dreams other than just supposing he knows it for some reason when no one else does but the Forsaken.

**And he gathers his cronies because... he is regathering the Hundred Companions, perhaps? Or some other reason? Read, theorize, theoritate (I don't know english well and I don't know the correct word) and write it down.**

All been done and comes back to the same points:

1. Taim is a Darkfriend in the least.

2. Taim is most certainly Forsaken trained.

3. Taim seems to be working for a specific Forsaken now.

4. Whoever that Forsaken is, his actions such as with the Black Tower and the relationship between Rand and Aes Sedai are clearly meant to forward the Shadow's agenda.

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-09

***And he gathers his cronies because... he is regathering the Hundred Companions, perhaps? Or some other reason? Read, theorize, theoritate (I don't know english well and I don't know the correct word) and write it down.***

He's training Dreadlords. Taim is not Demandred, but he is a Darkfriend, trained by morridin. I n the end of KoD he says 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' Where did he learn that if he's not a Dreadlord? It comes from the 4th age, and this is the 3rd age!

Davian93: 2007-01-09

****He's training Dreadlords. Taim is not Demandred, but he is a Darkfriend, trained by morridin. I n the end of KoD he says 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' Where did he learn that if he's not a Dreadlord? It comes from the 4th age, and this is the 3rd age!****

My personal theory, first stated right after KoD came out is that Taim is a new Forsaken and the extra chair present at the meeting of the Chosen was for him. Not alot of people agree with me however. They say that the DO is biased towards 3rd Age channelers and wouldn't raise one of the them to Forsaken. But I stand by my theory.

Gandelail: 2007-01-10

Okay, so at this point in the debate I don't think it matters what I think, or really what any of us think about the Taimandred theories...

We've beat both sides to death and in spite of evidence from each camp that they believe to make it clear that Taim is/isn't Damandred. Why don't we take a break from Taimandred for a moment and come up with something new that might please both camps? Who knows, maybe we have a chance at finding an answer once we take the blinders off and stop staring only at the arguments for or against Taim.

Anybody with me?

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-11

*Anybody with me?*

I am!!

Callandor: 2007-01-12

**Why don't we take a break from Taimandred for a moment and come up with something new that might please both camps? Who knows, maybe we have a chance at finding an answer once we take the blinders off and stop staring only at the arguments for or against Taim.**

There's nothing to discuss. The Taimandred argument is non-existant, except only to the delusional. It's been stated wrong by Jordan on four separate occasions that we have recorded, all the "evidence" for it is nothing but circumstantial, and it was hardly convincing even in its "strongest" form (IE: initially).

It's completely shattered and there's no argument.

Anubis: 2007-01-12

**Anybody with me?**

I'm not. RJ has said that Taim is not Demandred. Therefore Taim is not Demandred and any "evidence" to the contrary is merely people who haven't been following the discussion.

vardene: 2007-01-12

I also think its best we call this issue quits. I never expected to convince everyone of Taimandred yet i felt the need to remark on it because its the only one rj has ever shot down that i disagreed with. The very basis of what is done here at TL is to piece bit together to get a pix. To me that failed with the Taim/Demndred issue. So much evidence that counts for nothing! Why? (i dont really want any replies to this) I've thot of the consequences too.I thought hey, is there a way RJ could back out of this?

***i like to watch you squirm***

Is that what the denials were about?

RJ said somewhere that madness couldn't be healed.(an interview or blog) yet the prophecies of the dragon maintain rand would

*** "heal wounds of madness" ***

I just really had to ask, is there more? But i certainly have no intention of carrying on the arguement. I've definitely had enough of the "delusional" language. (been used more than six times). Since theoryland and RJ have said so, i accept taimandred out. No more arguemnts.

Feyd2Black: 2007-01-13

Greetings all! Tis my first post. Not long found the site and loving it muchly, looking forward to talking to you all. This thread caught my eye whilst lurking.

I agree 100% with Callandor, the logical evidence says Taim is not Demandred. RJ says so, end of story.

But even rereading the books, the feeling that Taim is Demandred is overwhelming. His anger at being second Asha'man, fair enough he is arrogant, but it seems so much more personal.

And LTTs hatred, "kill him now, kill him now" etc, why so strong if not someone he recognises?(although it may just be his general hatred of male channellers, the madness, Ilyenna etc)

Again, I agree that Taim is trained somehow, he must have been. Rand had LTTs instincts helping him to start with, Taim isnt a respun hero(probably). Wilders tend to specalise in one thing, not the massive amount of abilities and weaves Taim shows. Ishamel is the only possibilty due to his freedom. But with him gone, Demandred can use Taim.

I propose that Demandred has decided to use something from this Age, and has bonded Taim. Or linked somehow, some form of compulsion perhaps.

This explains LTTs hatred, as he can sense Demandred in Taim.

It explains how Demandred is close enough to Rand to keep an eye on him, without actually being there.

Taims anger could be the backlash of Demandreds anger.

The arguments over the orders given to kill Rand I cant comment on, as have only re-read up to the end of COS so far.

Be gentle.......

Davian93: 2007-01-14

I doubt highly that Demandred bonded Taim. In fact, considering that both Taim and Moridin have a penchance for black and red as their personal colors its far more likely that Moridin has taken Taim under his wing, not Demandred. That's my feeling at least. Taim is Moridin's ace up the sleeve so to speak.

Callandor: 2007-01-14

**I never expected to convince everyone of Taimandred yet i felt the need to remark on it because its the only one rj has ever shot down that i disagreed with.**

I disagreed with his answer that the One Power is finite and infinitely recyclable (not simply infinite in supply), but that doesn't mean that because I prefer something else that Jordan is wrong.

**So much evidence that counts for nothing! Why? (i dont really want any replies to this) I've thot of the consequences too.I thought hey, is there a way RJ could back out of this?**

1. Again the "evidence" was always circumstantial at best. Taim doesn't fully smile, Demandred doesn't fully smile; Taim doesn't like Rand, Demandred hates Rand; etc. It's simply not evidence for it. Call it deliberate red herrings by Jordan (a few of them certainly are), drawing way too great of conclusions from practically nothing by readers (surely), or just coincidences. Point is that it's not evience.

2. Of course Jordan can "back out" of what he says. It's his story. He can do whatever he wants. Thing is, though, he never has. That's why he gives RAFOs -- to leave him room to potentially change his mind, to decide, as well as to keep suspense on an issue. He's especially careful with RAFOs, so any issue that he gives a distinct answer on (let alone four times that is the exact same) is obviously settled in his mind.

**Since theoryland and RJ have said so, i accept taimandred out. No more arguemnts.**

Most excellent.

**And LTTs hatred, "kill him now, kill him now" etc, why so strong if not someone he recognises?(although it may just be his general hatred of male channellers, the madness, Ilyenna etc)**

There's a few simple ones if you think that Lews Therin, deep down, is truly Rand: link

**Ishamel is the only possibilty due to his freedom. But with him gone, Demandred can use Taim.

I propose that Demandred has decided to use something from this Age, and has bonded Taim. Or linked somehow, some form of compulsion perhaps.**

It is still possible that Taim for a time "shifted" teachers from Ishamael to Demandred while Ishamael was dead. But really it is more complicated to say so, rather than just being who Taim is evokes Demandred-like qualities (because they aren't so unique).

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-14

Why can't Taim be Morridin? LTT hated him, to and it would make sense.

Gandelail: 2007-01-14

Just for the record, I was merely being diplomatic. I have never bought into the taimandred theories even before I knew of RJ dismissing them. All I was doing was suggesting that try to find another theory.

:)

Kathy Sedai: 2007-01-14

But again, unfortunately, The Creator "RJ" has decreed Taim is NOT Demandred. So why don't we put these very fine minds into figuring out who he is, not who he isn't.

Callandor: 2007-01-17

**Why can't Taim be Morridin? LTT hated him, to and it would make sense.**

Because Taim showed up in Caemlyn before there's any true indication (or even potential indication) that Ishamael had been transmigrated into Moridin. Moridin appeared in A Crown of Swords; the earliest leeway given for him is late Lord of Chaos for his transmigration. That's about 2 months since the start of Lord of Chaos, when Taim showed up. As well, again, Taim built a Saldaean palace in the Black Tower -- Moridin, like Demandred, would have absolutely no reason to do that. But Taim just being Taim would have perfect reason to: because he's from Saldaea.

**But again, unfortunately, The Creator "RJ" has decreed Taim is NOT Demandred. So why don't we put these very fine minds into figuring out who he is, not who he isn't.**

It's simple who he is, and hence why looking for another theory isn't much: Taim is Taim. He's not anyone but himself. Theories circulate around what he is (just a Darkfriend, Dreadlord, normal person, etc.), what he's up to, who he might work for, etc. But Taim is Taim.

Gandelail: 2007-01-18

If I'm not mistaken, Kathy Sedai was suggesting that since it is clear that Taim is Taim and noone else, that we should put our 'fine minds' toward finding out who Demandred is (if he is posing as someone) or where he might be, etc.

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-20

According to Sammael, Demandred is in the south.

Kathy Sedai: 2007-01-21

That is exactly what I am suggesting. My thoughts that he may be Masema in disguise was shot down, based on the comment by RJ that he was not one of the currently seen characters. It did seem logical, how could such a totally disliked, antisocial git become a great leader? But alas, he is not Demandred. But I am dying to know who is!

Davian93: 2007-01-22

****According to Sammael, Demandred is in the south. ****

For one thing, Sammael is/was an idiot and another is that he thought the Seanchan (aka the South) were Demandred's proxy which we know now is actually where Semi was hidden. So basically, its a very good possibility that Sammael was completely wrong.

dragonrider3: 2007-01-25

hmm, it all sounds pretty heated. If i may suggest-it may have been argued already- Taim could be bonded to Demandred. Many things seem to be possible with bonds and links seen so far in the series. Sammael had a trick that allowed him to send a 'proxy' message to rand. Perhaps Demandred can do the same with Taim. I don't have any particular quote to support this though.

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-30

*For one thing, Sammael is/was an idiot and another is that he thought the Seanchan (aka the South) were Demandred's proxy*

Wait....I thought he meant the Dragonsworn.

Davian93: 2007-02-01

To Myrelle:

It's also possible he was referring to the Dragonsworn as they are in the same area.

JakOShadows: 2007-02-01

Davian93:

I agree with Myrelle on that note. Although he might have been talking about the Seanchan too, because he was operating around Ebou Dar at the time. But personally I lean towards the dragonsworn, because it seemed like a lot of people knew about Semirhage's operation. That and they were a surprise attack too.

Davian93: 2007-02-03

****I agree with Myrelle on that note. Although he might have been talking about the Seanchan too, because he was operating around Ebou Dar at the time. But personally I lean towards the dragonsworn, because it seemed like a lot of people knew about Semirhage's operation. That and they were a surprise attack too.****

I actually went back and reread the passage in question where Sammael is talking to Graendal:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow



He cut in sharply. "You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to." Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. "Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans." Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. "So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it."

Personally, its sounds more like the Seanchan to me just off the carve out and south comments Sammael makes. Also, Sammael makes the comment while in Arad Doman and directly "south" is Tarabon and the major Seafolk Islands which were the main holdings of the Seanchan at that point. The Dragonsworn wouldn't be considered directly south from either Arad Doman or Illian where the Seanchan would more likely fit that bill. Also, the Seanchan were actually carving out and holding territory much more effieciently than the Dragonsworn who were an undisciplined mob.

Catalyst: 2007-02-06

It might mean everything. Demandred is in the south at that moment, but I wonder if he was talking about the Land of Madmen. It is considered to be lifeless volcanic island, but who knows what might be hidden there? I hope that we will see activities there as A Memory Of Light is published.

greatwolf: 2007-02-08

** To Myrelle:

It's also possible he was referring to the Dragonsworn as they are in the same area.**

At the time, Rand was massing an army aimed at sammael's illian. Obviously this is what he was referring to. He knows of demandred's affiliation to the BT though the exact nature of this affiliation is yet to be revealed. Taim may be one of the proxies he spoke of, and rand as well, he believes demandred put rand to attacking him. perhaps he also thought of exposing taim and demandred both.

Davian93: 2007-02-12

****At the time, Rand was massing an army aimed at sammael's illian. Obviously this is what he was referring to. He knows of demandred's affiliation to the BT though the exact nature of this affiliation is yet to be revealed. Taim may be one of the proxies he spoke of, and rand as well, he believes demandred put rand to attacking him. perhaps he also thought of exposing taim and demandred both. ****

When you make grand sweeping statements of what you call truth and fact, its always nice to back it up with quotes and evidence. We do not know of any direct connection between the BT and Demandred. We do know that Demandred ordered some of the known DF Ashaman to kill Rand but that this happened without Taim's knowledge at some point during PoD. We have no evidence that Sammael thought that Demandred was behind Rand's buildup against him.

JakOShadows: 2007-02-13

Another thing that leads me to think it is the dragonsworn is that we haven't much of how they started. And if you think about an uprising like that, it takes quite a bit of organization. A shared hatred so to speak. And since we haven't seen where Demandred is actually operating from, and we just happen to know about Sammuel's comment, this leads me to believe that Demandred is partly behind those events. All the other chaotic events happening in the world can be pinned down to one person or another, but the riots in Ghealdean we are still unsure about, which leads to believe Demandred was behind it.

On that note though, it seems as if Demandred has never really established a distinct base of operations. Unless you count Ghealdean I guess, which is kind of not anymore because the mob has left the city. But as of right now, he kind of manipulates lots of people from the shadow. He's commanded people in the BT. I'm pretty sure he help with the rise of the prophet. So I think even if we did figure out who he has been operating through and as in anyway, it would be unimportant because he hasn't pinned himself down to one operation like Rahvin or Sammuel.

VerinRocks: 2007-09-17

This is my first time on the site and I wanted to say good job. Taimandred is still an excellent theory based on the text.

Just two questions for Callandor:

You said that LTT could be a construct of Rand's insanity? I know that was posted before that construct knew Semirhage's face in KoD, but surely the construct couldn't have called Lanfear Mierin at the end of TSR and said she had always been ambitious. I think the various comments from the Forsaken and Cadsuane about the taint causing him to have what we might term schizophrenia are red herrings. Please forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere.

Question 2: Does the name Itan mean anything to you?

Davian93: 2007-09-19

Unfortunately for you and for the rest of us, Callandor no longer participates here on Theoryland. He is currently on an extended hiatus from the boards.

****You said that LTT could be a construct of Rand's insanity? I know that was posted before that construct knew Semirhage's face in KoD, but surely the construct couldn't have called Lanfear Mierin at the end of TSR and said she had always been ambitious. I think the various comments from the Forsaken and Cadsuane about the taint causing him to have what we might term schizophrenia are red herrings. Please forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere.****

To answer your question very poorly, the evidence that you quote concerning LTT's memories does not negate the construct theory but rather it supports it. Callandor in no way states that the LTT memories are not real but rather the LTT personality is an artificial creation made by Rand to help him deal with the memories that are filtering across from barrier between past lives. He goes on to theorize that this barrier has been weakened by taint degradation in the 3rd Age by Rand's channeling of tainted saiden. So naturally Rand has access to LTT's past memories but there is no real person to go along with it just an aritficial creation by Rand.

lt birgy: 2007-09-23

Hi. i've found the construct theory rather intriguing. Yet i'm not quite sure how its supposed to work out. Does it mean LT is a figment of rand's imagination or that Rand isn't real? What/who is an itan?

vardene: 2007-09-23

One issue that hasn't been properly addressed is that of Taim's power skill and knowledge levels. They are way too high for a third ager and he seems to know 'things' readily e.g about sammael and the wards, about testing men who could channel. If you believe he is fordaken trained well, but how come they just happened to have taught him those things he needed? He also knew enough of channeling to hold cadsuane (with help from other sisters) with her angreal and ter'angreal back before he was captured in saldea. Could you explain that?

VerinRocks: 2007-09-26

Itan is someone I know from a WoT MUD. Callandor's presentation of his answers reminds me very much of him.

Davian93: 2007-10-02

****He also knew enough of channeling to hold cadsuane (with help from other sisters) with her angreal and ter'angreal back before he was captured in saldea. Could you explain that?****

Simple, he never was close enough to them to make a difference. He was knocked off his horse during a battle and captured by the Saldeans afterwards. The AS probably never had a chance to confront him one on one. They would have had to make it through his army to reach him.

Dragon Tamer: 2008-02-28

"Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.
I definitely agree with ablar. This just screams out to me. The question was has he POSED as Taim. RJ says no because Demandred IS Taim. That is how he is being devious in an Aes Sedai way. This also explain when RJ said we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego and since he just is Taim, he doesn't really have an alter ego. It is possible that Demandred was free early and so he has been just living as Taim.

Prince of Shandalle: 2009-10-25

RJ did state that Demandred wasn't one and the same as Taim. So that's out of the way.

Sammael gives us the best clue when he says:

"I know what demandred is up to. Events to the south have his name all over them.." or something along those lines. He's in Arad Doman when he says that.

I don't think that Dem is in any countries that we know however. We know he likes to use proxies.

I'm proposing that he's in the Land of Madmen, to the far south of the Sea Folk islands. He's using proxies to conceal himself.

In the brief release of work from the new ebook, it seems that dem has a monarchy and a country as he has armies as his "rule is secure".

He has turned the continent into his.

Dreamendless: 2010-03-07

I have a feeling the Demandred is posing as King Roedran of Murandy. It is the only nation in the south (Sammael's guess to Graendal) that has no Forsaken or Seanchan control. And in POD when Talmanes tells Egwene of Roedran's plan to draw Murandy together was quite unlike him. In COT Elayne found a spy for Roedran in Caemlyn, one of the cities held by Rand, who Demandred was able to watch. Then when he reports to Moridin in TGS, he says that his rule is secure, and his armies ready. Murandy is the only semi secure nation besides the Borderlands with no other influance from the Forsaken/Seanchan.

pathofdaggers: 2010-08-06

I don't know why no one has ever considered that Demandred and Taim based on all arguments both for and against the taimandred theory are the same person just as Luc and Isam. The whole thing fits! 2 completely different people sharing the same body/memories in a weird way!

Nocterequiem: 2012-12-31

Despite all of the evidence in the books pointing to Taim, unless RJ lied to keep the truth hidden (which in all possibility he might have), the theory is debunked. Logically speaking, I don't think that Demandred could accomplish what he has if he had to spend as much time as I believe it would take to set up the Black Tower and recruit and train enough men to get to where the Black Tower is in under two years.

My heart wants to say that they are the same, but my head is telling me no. Taim was trained by Ishamael, is a tool of Moridins, and is the 3rd Age's first Forsaken.