1
Tamyrlin: 2005-01-03
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
i've seen this before, but on the message boards. First time someone's posted it here, as far as i can tell.
Yes, Luc/Isam/Slayer has appeared and has been alluded to in the previous books. And yes, all of that may be foreshadowing that will be addressed in 'Knife of Dreams.' But there's more to it than just "he'll have some significant role to play" in the book. What role do you think he'll play, and how will that role be significant enough to title a book for it?
2
Callandor: 2005-01-04
Truth be told, this would not be the first novel titled after a character if it is (The Dragon Reborn ;)). But like Frenzy said, what would be the role of Slayer? This is not going to be the Last Battle (unless the 12th book is just recap ;)), so what role could Slayer take part in?
3
Dannil Lewin: 2005-01-04
Perhaps we will see Isam turned to the good in this book...although I think that highly unlikely. I think more likely we will see a merging of Rand and LTT similar to what we see in Luc/Isam...
4
Caramoor: 2005-01-04
I think the title is meant to encompass more than just one character. Dreams can also mean aspirations or hopes. When those dreams fall to ruin, we are left with a feeling of hurt that is "cutting". So the novel will likely place the world and the characters into postion to see their greatest hopes destroyed. For example, Egwene uniting the AS - Elayne bringing here kingdom together - Rand living happily ever after (it still has to be a hope of his) - Perrin wanting to have Faile safe and to himself. These are all examples of hopes or dreams that are on the edge of a knife and could likely never come to fruition.
But I also beleive it will cover many other aspects of the world, including TAR. What IS going to happen to Birgitte? What kind of effect will that have on her? What role does Isam have in the story? Why should someone never enter TAR in the flesh? Many scenarios could be derived from the title that effect the "literal" world. But I think the title is meant to encompass all things in the world.
5
bigjellybeans: 2005-01-04
This is a decent theory. It could be that or I think it is a ter-angreal that we have yet to see.
6
fistandantilus: 2005-01-05
If I had to guess as to what the title refers to, it would definitely be Slayer. He seems to be the only one who uses TAR to facilitate his killings.
However, it could be that the Aes Sedai, or the Asha'man figure out a way to use TAR as a weapon. It would more likely be the Asha'man due to the Oaths. But it seems to point to Slayer, which is good because he deserves a bigger part.
7
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-05
Has anyone considered that it might refer to Ewgene? She is currently prisioner in the WT but if she is taken off forkroot and just shielded so she can be questioned, she may start doing some of those thing the Wise Ones don't allow while dreaming.
8
The Dragons Advocate: 2005-01-10
I think the Knife of Dreams is going to be just as caramoor described it to be like, everyones greatest hopes and aspirations meeting an ending that leaves the characters devastated. Rands attempts to unify the Seanchean with the mainland, Elayne failing to gain control of the Lion Throne, Egwene trying to unify with the other AS, and Perrin meeting an unfortunate ending with finding Faile, but her dead corpse
What do you guys think?
9
terez: 2005-01-11
Although "Knife of Dreams" may have allusion to many aspects of the plot, I think the idea that Slayer will be the main object of the reference is sound. "Crossroads of Twilight" is surely a set-up to this. Actually, CoT, the book, was almost purely set-up. There was not very much resolution in that book. Perrin's situation was not resolved. Mat's situation was not resolved. Egwene and Rand were both tied off with extreme cliffhangers, with forboding. No book up to this point has ended this way, with no resolution at the end at all.
Back to the title of CoT, is has already been established that the reference was to the Shadowbrothers, brought to life by Slayer's slaying of the wolves, "crossroads" and "twilight" both being dangerous places to come across darkhounds, as per legend. The abnormally large packs were mentioned, but were not pursued. They were only revealed to be hunting more important prey than Perrin. If RJ is really going to end it in 12 books, it is long past time to make Slayer's objectives more clear. He is massing Darkhounds for the last battle.
It seems, from Perrin's "wolfdream" experiences in TAR that the wolves are somehow guardians of this realm. Slayer's objective might include a weakening of the safety of the World of Dreams through the turning of its wolf guardians, thus a "Knife of Dreams". Perhaps Egwene will play a major role in the uncovering of this plot, assuming that the forkroot does not impair her Dreaming abilities. Perrin will surely play a role.
Perhaps the title refers to a Knife made of Dreams; dreams used as a weapon. Slayer, Egwene, and Perrin have all shown this ability. Perhaps they will all three use it in this book. This is also a good setting to bring the Tower of Ghenjei into play.
We shall see.
10
ImmDude123456: 2005-01-12
However this theory is likely, I think it is also very possible that this title is a only a minor circumstance in this book.
"Crossroads of Twilight" referred to the large packs of Dark Hounds that circled Perrin's camp but whether this will or will not have some more meaningful circumstance in the next few books is yet to be found out.
I'm simply stating that RJ has named a few books and chapters very decievingly i guess this isnt really a theory more of a shooting down of all theories on this subject, but I felt the need to share my thoughts with some other WOT fanatics.
11
WCDWarder: 2005-01-21
Terez stated: "Perhaps the title refers to a Knife made of Dreams; dreams used as a weapon. Slayer, Egwene, and Perrin have all shown this ability." This is in line with my thoughts on the title. T'A'R has been largely ignored for a while now, but we know it will likely return as a plot device.
And I highly doubt that Slayer would be the main focus of any book at this point. He hasn't been a minor chracter, but RJ has shown no interest in making him the heart of a major storyline yet. That's not to say that he hasn't had a large role, just not on par with the main Shadow characters like Padan Fain. I see him more on par with the Super-fade (I forget his name). An important character, but not one to base a novel on.
That said, I think the dream world will play a huge part in Knife of Dreams. That means we can expect to see more of Slayer, Perrin, Egwene, the Wise Ones, the Forsaken, and of course Rand in T'A'R. My guess is that Eg escapes using the T'A'R, the Wise Ones proactively use it to their advantage, Slayer uses it in his customary way (maybe leading Perrin back to the Tower of Ghenjei), and the Forsaken have more cockatil-hour-type activities there.
12
terez: 2005-01-29
One thought that I have had recently is that the actions of Rand in TAR are largely hinted at but obscure in the POV sense, with exception of the flesh entry scenes in which he fought various Forsaken. But with close examination of the small details, it seems that Rand might have even more knowledge of what to do in TAR than anyone else. Remember the scene where he spied on the AS and Egwene, and discovered the location of Salidar from Suian's map? If he has found such a source of valuable information in TAR previously, I certainly don't think he would fail to go back to the source for more. I can see a lot of opportunity for Rand to use TAR as a weapon in the upcoming book, especially considering the foreshadowing of his imminent doom at the end of CoT. I personally would like to see more showcasing of his talents there. Also, Perrin, Egwene, and Rand have all discovered each other in the World of Dreams, but appear not to have mentioned it to each other. Does that seem strange to anyone but me?
13
bigjellybeans: 2005-01-30
WCD warder what do you mean when you say "and of course Rand in T'A'R." As far as I know Rand only goes to TAR twice. And he does not use it the same way as Perrin or egwene would. So I think it's safe to say it's not a tool that Rand regularily relies on. No to mention the little threat of the sanchean. Im not criticizing your theory Im just curious of why.
14
Aiel Finn: 2005-01-31
Rand goes to T'A'R more than twice. He also enters T'A'R to spy a number of times. One example that comes to mind is when he spies on the Wise Ones meeting in the Stone. However, he seems to use gateways to get around as if he doesn't know how to travel in T'A'R another way.
15
WCDWarder: 2005-01-31
Big Jelly Beans,
In my prior posting I said I believed that Knife of Dreams may be a hint that T'A'R will be back in play more than it has in the most recent books. I mentioned Rand as possibly entering T'A'R because he has done it before, so I believe it possible he will again. Whether he will go there and what he would do there is anyone's guess. I already mentioned the specific activities I expect to see. I included Rand just didn't want to leave any stone unturned. As I am sure you have noticed, when you leave someone major out of a list like the one in my previous post, others here in theroyland tend to point out the omission.
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terez: 2005-01-31
Again, for evidence of Rand's familiarity with TAR: as early as tDR, Perrin ran into Rand in the Wolfdream (TAR). Rand was fighting off a continuous bevy of Myrddraal and Darkfriends. Perrin called out to Rand, and Rand tried to kill him thinking him an enemy in familiar form. Rand realized later on waking that it really was Perrin, and he almost killed him, and made a comment that he could not make any more mistakes like that in the future. Although Rand was not aware of the details of TAR at the time, and appears to have just dreamed himself there, and stayed, he obviously knew enough that real people could meet each other there, and really be harmed. Rand was inadvertently using TAR as a training ground. His POV's never contradict the possibility that he is in fact more skilled than Perrin and Egwene in the World of Dreams. RJ has been very secretive, hint hint, about Rand's dreaming ability ever since Rand asked Asmodean (first request!) how to shield his dreams.
17
WCDWarder: 2005-02-01
Terez,
Great point! Rand's encounter with Perrin was so far back in the series that it slipped my mind. I agree it is very possible he may have some dreaming ability, too. That encounter certainly did not seem like the typical flash non-dreamers have that bring them to T'A'R for a short time.
18
Dannil Lewin: 2005-02-01
I think that the Knife of Dreams is actually the punishment or negative side effect from entering T'A'R in the flesh. I read somewhere, I think it was at Dragonmount, that RJ said he is going to reveal a terrible consequence for something that has already happened in the books and that our reaction will be "Gasp, how terrible."
Since the wise ones claim that it is evil to enter T'A'R in the flesh but Egwene and Rand both do it anyway this seems like the most likely event to have a terrible consequence revealed.
19
Callandor: 2005-02-01
**Again, for evidence of Rand's familiarity with TAR: as early as tDR, Perrin ran into Rand in the Wolfdream (TAR). Rand was fighting off a continuous bevy of Myrddraal and Darkfriends. Perrin called out to Rand, and Rand tried to kill him thinking him an enemy in familiar form. Rand realized later on waking that it really was Perrin, and he almost killed him, and made a comment that he could not make any more mistakes like that in the future. Although Rand was not aware of the details of TAR at the time, and appears to have just dreamed himself there, and stayed, he obviously knew enough that real people could meet each other there, and really be harmed. Rand was inadvertently using TAR as a training ground. His POV's never contradict the possibility that he is in fact more skilled than Perrin and Egwene in the World of Dreams. RJ has been very secretive, hint hint, about Rand's dreaming ability ever since Rand asked Asmodean (first request!) how to shield his dreams.**
Rand has no dreaming ability at all. He can only enter Tel'aran'rhiod via channeling or, in this case, being pulled in.
Rand was being hunted by the Shadow, specifically Lanfear and Ishamael, and they have all been playing scramble with Rand's dreams (Ishamael as early as The Eye of the World, Lanfear all the way until Rand learns to shield his dreams).
Read the passages explaining it:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod
"Rand," she said uncertainly. "It's Egwene. I am Egwene." There was a sword in his hands, suddenly, out of nowhere. Its blade was worked out of a single flame, slightly curved and graven with a heron. "My mother gave me honeycake," he said in a tight voice, "with the smell of poison rank on it. My father had a knife for my ribs. She - she offered kisses, and more." Sweat slicked his face; his stare seemed enough to set her afire. "What do you bring?"**
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 32 - The First Ship
Only, there had been so many faces, faces he knew. Tam, and his mother, and Mat, and Perrin. All trying to kill him. It had not really been them, of course. Only their faces, on Shadowspawn. He thought it had not really been them. Even in his dreams it seemed the Shadowspawn walked. Were they only dreams? Some dreams were real, he knew. And others were only dreams, nightmares, or hopes. But how to tell the difference? Min had walked his dreams one night - and tried to plant a knife in his back. He was still surprised at how much that had pained him. He had been careless, let her come close, let down his guard. Around Min, he had not felt any need to be on his guard in so long, despite the things she saw when she looked at him. Being with her had been like having balm soothed into his wounds.**
Egwene was in Tel'aran'rhiod for the first time when she met Rand.
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terez: 2005-02-01
Even if Rand can only enter TAR in the flesh, that still constitutes dreaming ability. He is able to use it to do the same things. And the chapter in which Rand encountered Perrin was chapter 36 of tDR, "Daughter of the Night," which was after the two chapters quoted above. In his encounter with Perrin, Rand learned something very important about the rules of the realm that he did not understand when he encountered Egwene earlier - he learned to recognize the difference between an image sent to taunt him and a real person. In the scene where he spied on the Wise Ones and AS, he said that he had just come to the Stone by chance that time, but he also learned something valuable there - that people were using the World of Dreams to meet each other. He knows that there are certain things that can be done there that will hold true in the real world, such as inverting the weaves on the traps he had set on Callandor.
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Aiel Finn: 2005-02-02
Rand may have just been in T'A'R in a nightmare. Remember that they take on a life of their own, and the can hold a dreamer in them. Either way, I think that the "evil" of entering T'A'R in the flesh is some sort of soul merging, or some kind of openness of the soul. I think that this is both part of how Slayer was made, and of Rand's voices and faces.
22
Callandor: 2005-02-02
**Even if Rand can only enter TAR in the flesh, that still constitutes dreaming ability. He is able to use it to do the same things.**
No he is not. A dreamer does not enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh; what Perrin does seems to be a middle ground where he dreams himself in, but can go "too far" into the dream and can possibly die.
Rand enters Tel'aran'rhiod fully, via a gateway. He is there only in the flesh (or if he has been pulled in by someone else).
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn
“Please.” Moghedien caught at Nynaeve's skirt. “I tell you, we must get away.” Stark panic made her voice painful. Moghedien's clawing terror mirrored itself on her face. “They are here in the flesh. The flesh!”
“Why will you not understand what I tell you? Even if they had only dreamed themselves here, either would be stronger than we. Here in the flesh, they could crush us without blinking. In the flesh they can draw saidin more deeply than we can draw saidar dreaming.”
“You brainless fool,” Moghedien sobbed, shaking Nynaeve's skirt with both hands as if wanting to shake Nynaeve. “It does not matter how brave you are. We are linked, but you contribute nothing the way you are. Not a shred. It is my strength, and your madness. They are here in the flesh, not dreaming! They are using things you have never dreamed of! They will destroy us if we stay!”**
If you need more proof that what Rand does is very different then dreaming ability, there are more instances.
23
ranman38: 2005-02-04
I buy the Isam theory. He is quite literally the "Knife of Dreams"
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terez: 2005-02-19
As to "if you need any more proof that what Rand does is very different than dreaming ability..." - what Rand does is very different from the sleep-dreaming ability that is more safe to use, but flesh-dreaming is still dreaming ability. He can do things there that he cannot do in the real world. He can affect things there that others cannot through sleep-dreaming. He has dreaming ability.
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flayer: 2005-05-22
terez
hate to break it to u, but DREAMING, the talent, requires u to be asleep (yes or an aiel dream walker trance).
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Ozymandias: 2005-10-19
thought that I'd resurrect this for one second just to say: What WAS the knife of dreams? We really didn't see anything to justify that title. So either Jordan is stuck for creative and catchy titles... or I missed a key part of the book.
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reTaardad: 2005-10-19
Maybe the title, much like the other books, only refers to the quote specific to each book. What are the "Fires of Heaven" or the "Path of Daggers?" They're only references to the quote that Jordan writes on the opening page of the books. I don't think that the titles are particularly related to the story line of the books (unlike "The Eye of the World" or "The Dragon Reborn," which were pretty obviously related to the stories), rather I think they're just pulled from the quotes.
I understand why Jordan wouldn't want to make the title specific to the story; how would you have liked to pick up the book and seen the title "Rand - Hand = This Book"?
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Anubis: 2005-10-19
the path of daggers refers to a seanchan saying.
"on the heights the paths are paved with daggers"
basicly meaning for high royalty there are thousands of ways to slip up and die, its like walking on daggers. a path of daggers.
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Ozymandias: 2005-10-19
Well, the Path of Daggers can be tied to him walking the tight line between winning and losing, having to balance Taim, Forsaken, rebellion, the Tower, all that. That ties in. Fires of Heaven, is, admittedly, a strange one. I was just confused. Those are the only two books (FoH and KoD) whihc don't relate to the plot. The exception, not the rule, so I thought I was missing something
