he Tower of Ghenjei and the Ghosts
by WCDWarder: 2005-06-22 | 3.33 out of 10 (12 votes)
The recent theory posted by Psychmusician got me thinking about the Tower of Ghenjei and the recent series of ghost sightings. I believe the two are linked, and either the Dark One generally, or, more specifically, Slayer, is integral to the influx of ghosts.
RJ has indicated that Matt's memories were harvested in part through the Tower of Ghenjei, and used by the 'finn to grant Matt's wish.
"Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'finns have obtained these memories?
Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name."
So now Matt recalls a very significant number of lives (and deaths), lives that he never lived and sometimes overlapped. Unfortunately, I do not have the books with me to give specific citations to the series. But I do remember Matt indicating early in the series that he remembered a battle from the perspective of warriors on both sides. I also refer to Theron's statement in an earlier theory regarding Matt's memories, where he states:
"Many of his memories have Artur Hawkwing in them. Now Hawkwing was alive for over 80 years and Mat has over three distinct different memories involving Hawkwing by three distinctly different people. He also has at least one memory of Hawkwing's time, but not of the man himself, again, the memory was taken from a different person. This means that if the memories were his, Mat's soul would need to be reborn in an 80-year period of time, and climb through the ranks as a soldier very quickly at least four times. Not very likely."
Thus Matt has the memories of a very significant number of people, all of whom must have been made available to the 'finn through the doorway or the Tower.
We know the doorway ter'angreal has not always been very accessible, so it is a fair assumption that most of these people's memories were accessed through the Tower of Ghenjei. That means they entered the Tower. And since their memories often include their deaths, that means they entered the Tower after dying.
Thus my theory is this: The Tower of Ghenjei is a portal to the afterlife, the soul pool, or whatever you want to call the place people go when they die. In other words, the souls of the dead leave Randland through the Tower.
A somewhat less certain extension of this conclusion is that the large number of ghost sightings in Rand Land is related to the Dark One. The Dark One, or his minion, Slayer, has closed off the Tower in some way. How this was done, and what the Dark One has to gain from it (aside from the chaos and confusion caused by having a world full of Haley Joel Osments), I do not know. But considering the Dark One's power over the dead, and Slayer's connection to the Tower of Ghenjei, I believe this 2nd part of my theory is plausible.
If anyone can add something more to support this, I would love to read it. And if anyone has some citations to the books that refute or support my theory, that would be great, too. I hope to find references myself in a couple weeks when I have some free time to do the research.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-07-14
So, in summary, you believe the Tower of Ghenjei acts as some form of gateway through which all souls of the dead pass. I don't believe there is enough in the books to substantiate such a belief. I understand the connection between the memories of death and the memories stuck in Mat's head by the Finns. However, we know the Tower of Ghenjei is a portal to Finnland. Are you suggesting the land of the Finns is also part of the gateway or path to the final resting place of the soul? Although, you have brought up an interesting question. Is the Tower a direct doorway, like the ter'angreal, to Finnland, or is Finnland one of many potential destinations accessible through the doorway?
2
Ashaman Samuel: 2005-07-14
All right I could go for this mainly because if the tower is the gateway and is blocked, then teh DO has no limit to transmitigation, even balefired Chosen can come back. But it seems a tad shakey. If you can come up with more evidence to back it up more people will go for it.
3
Callandor: 2005-07-14
**And since their memories often include their deaths, that means they entered the Tower after dying.**
That doesn't mean it's the only way that the Finn could've gotten people's deaths.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway
"The answers are true," Moiraine said slowly, "so long as they are in regard to your own future. That much is certain." She watched Rand, and himself, weighing the effect of her words. "As to how, though, there is only speculation. That world is ... folded . . .in strange ways. I cannot be clearer. It may be that that allows them to read the thread of a human life, read the various ways it may yet be woven into the Pattern. Or perhaps it is a talent of the people. The answers are often obscure, however. If you need help working out what yours mean, I offer my services." Her eyes flickered from one of them to the other, and Mat nearly swore. She did not believe him about no answers. Unless it was simply general Aes Sedai suspicion."
Because of the way their world works or possibly a talent of the Finn, they might be able to see an entire thread's course in the Pattern and all the possible ways it could end -- hence, giving rise to how they can see people dying, and how they can get the most memories/sensations out of a single person.
So, I would say I don't agree with this at all.
4
terez: 2005-07-15
We know very little of what happens to people after they die. We know what happens to the Heroes of the Horn, and we have Osan'gar's POV referring to his "second, far more horrific" sleep. We have the Aiel saying, "life is a dream from which we must all wake." We have Ishamael's boast that the dead belong to the DO. We have Lews Therin's comments about dead people that never shut up. What else do we have?
5
joebball1212: 2005-07-15
I agree with the part where you said that Slayer has closed the tower for any to enter,because when Perrin chased him there and met Birgitte, she tld him the tower is very dangerous. If people used to enter it regularly, and no one ever said anything bad happening to them other than any price from the finns, why did they stop? Why is it now dangerous. I beleive the rest of the theory is possible, and sounds very probable, but I don't beleive in it until there is more proof.
6
lurk: 2005-07-15
I was thinking, are Mat's memories from heroes, or at least people with a major role within the pattern?
If so isn't it plausible that the souls of these people are continuously reincarnated.
(similar to the heroes of the horn but different because the heroes of the horn ar granted a sort of awareness while in the world of dreams. Instead of being kept in Finnland, probably in blissful ignorance, they remain in the world of dreams. Maybe that is why Birgitte warned Perrin in his wolf dream of the danger of the tower. Maybe by entering in the dreamworld you can be held within the tower.)
Then a part of the memories of these people could cling to the new carrier of the soul. If a person like this would enter finnland and the finn are able to read the entire soul and get their information this way. Hence the memories of dying that Mat has.
Then the Tower of Ghenjei is not a portal to the afterlife
7
ThunderWalker: 2005-07-15
I was under the impression that the Tower of Ghenjei was built on one of the Wheels turnings. Not that it was created by the Creator when he created everything else.
If the Tower of Ghenjei was created, as the portal stones where, by someone (whether human or not), then it couldn't be the gateway between the living and dead, since people (human or other) were supposedly dying before the Tower was built.
And there is the question of WHERE the tower was built. Was it created in real world, dream world, or both.
A counter argument, of course, could be that the Tower was built at the location of a pre-existing portal between life and death...
8
solomonrex: 2005-07-15
I think it's easy to put the end of this one to bed. Rand saw ghosts - almost exactly as Mat doesn later - in the Great Hunt. I just read it last night (starting the big ramp up to the next book). The DO was too weak to open up the tower in tGH.
I think it's much more likely that the ghosts have something to do with Fain/Mordeth/Machin Shin. Since we have Fain placed in the town just before Rand entered, and we know Fain is from South Randland, and the experiences were so similar. Read tGH again, should be in Ch. 10
9
Birgitte: 2005-07-15
I don't really buy into this theory for the same reason as Callandor, but it did get me speculating about what it would mean if it turned out to be right.
Assuming this theory is correct, would that make the Tower of Ghenjei the in between place where the DO picks up the souls of the dead Forsaken? Or would the DO grab the souls during their journey to the Tower of Ghenjei? Is there an actual journey, or do the souls go to the Tower the instant the body dies? Just idle speculation. As I said, I don't really think this theory is true.
Solomonrex-
**I think it's easy to put the end of this one to bed. Rand saw ghosts - almost exactly as Mat doesn later - in the Great Hunt. I just read it last night (starting the big ramp up to the next book). The DO was too weak to open up the tower in tGH.**
I wouldn't be too sure the DO didn't have the power to close the tower to dead souls. The DO already had the power to effect the dead souls before then. He had to have gotten the souls of Aginor and Balthamel before then since they were killed in tEotW, anyway and I'd say that's an indication of a fair amount of power, though it could be that the only reason he was able to get to their souls was that they were Forsaken. And a small nitpick, WCDWarder is saying the DO closed to Tower, not opened it;)
10
Callandor: 2005-07-16
**Rand saw ghosts - almost exactly as Mat doesn later - in the Great Hunt.**
I take it you mean the section in the house with the flies? If that is the one you are refering to, this is not ghosts -- but a weave of saidar.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 10 - The Hunt Begins
"That door burst open, and - Blink. The room was freezing. So cold. Flies blackened the table; the walls were a shifting mass of flies, the floor, the ceiling, all black with them. They crawled on Rand, covering him, crawled over his face, his eyes, into his nose, his mouth. Light, help me. Cold. The flies buzzed like thunder. Cold. It penetrated the void, mocking the emptiness, encasing him in ice. Desperately he reached for the flickering light. His stomach twisted, but the light was warm. Warm. Hot. He was hot.
Suddenly he was tearing at . . . something. He did not know what, or how. Cobwebs made of steel. Moonbeams carved from stone. They crumbled at his touch, but he knew he had not touched anything. They shriveled and melted with the heat that surged through him, heat like a forge fire, heat like the world burning, heat like-
It was gone. Panting, he looked around with wide eyes. A few flies lay on the half-carved roast, in the platter. Dead flies. Six flies. Only six. There were more in the bowls, half a dozen tiny black specks among the cold vegetables. All dead. He staggered out into the street.**
Rand severed something with saidin, and it is refered to as a web (IE: cobwebs), just like weavings of the One Power were refered to in the Age of Legends (as per Rand's near slip in Crossroads of Twilight).
No ghosts. This was more than likely an attempt by Lanfear to get Rand to channel more and more, which fits perfectly with her motives later on and throughout The Great Hunt.
11
Knife Hand: 2005-07-16
We know from the great hunt that many worlds exist in which different outcomes have occured. I beleive in the world rand visited and met seleen the shadow won a crucial battle as opposed to the forces of light that won it in rand land, and was punctuated y the raven statue that was raised instead of the (Hawk? some kind of bird that escapes my mind) statue raised in rand land.
Also in Matt's visits into the lands of the Aelfinn/Eilfinn there are multiple references to windows/doors.
It is my beleif that the tower of Ghenjei is some sort of stable center where all the different possibilities worlds meet. This not only explains how the Eilfinn i think it was have the power to give knowledge (they have a view of every consequence of every choice, since we can make the assumption each window is a view into a different possibility world) but also supports your theory that the tower is some kind of gateway that people could use for travelling between the worlds of different possibilty.
My personal beleif (and im touching on some other theories here, forgive me) is that the ter'angreal used to visit the Finns are the windows/doors to the tower of Ghenjei, and the reason Morraine cant leave is because the doorway from the Aelfinn is now destroyed.
12
JakOShadows: 2005-07-16
Knife Hand: It's possible, but there is also the other doorway she could go through to get out. Unless the rule applies that she can't go through the same doorway again even in leaving. It is possible though. I still couldn't see all souls there though. Maybe only the ones that have been through the doorway or have gone close to the tower of Genjei.
13
Anubis: 2005-07-17
**Suddenly he was tearing at . . . something. He did not know what, or how. Cobwebs made of steel. Moonbeams carved from stone. They crumbled at his touch, but he knew he had not touched anything. They shriveled and melted with the heat that surged through him, heat like a forge fire, heat like the world burning, heat like-**
Its always lanfear with you people, I'm begining to think you are obsesed. It was Siuan, Moir, and Verin shielding Rand and tieing it off earlier. After Rand leaves they ask if they did the right thing (letting him go or shielding him are options) and then they comment on his strength. Considering that they already discussed his Ta'veren ness, and that only Siuan knew exactly how strong Rand was in that regard, it is obvious that they were talking about his strength as a channeler, which they discovered when they placed the shield.
14
Callandor: 2005-07-17
**Its always lanfear with you people, I'm begining to think you are obsesed.**
Well, she was seen in the area, and her actions throughout The Great Hunt have been for Rand to channel more -- excuse me for believing what is put in front of me. Until you can explain how "ghosts" have anything to do with cobwebs or moonbeams that are severed by saidin (and it was saidin), and then shrivl away to nothingness, while Rand cannot sense them -- then please understand that it was Lanfear, who was in the area, her motives match up with the rest of The Great Hunt, and is a saidar channeler. Case closed.
15
Sampson: 2005-07-27
Since the Finns read the thread of a person's life, they would also know when & how that person should die.
I can not accept that the ToG is the path that souls are sent to the pool where they can be reused. What if the Finns got a wild hair and didn't let one of the hero's leave and chill in T'A'R?
I think they read the thread of a person's life, placed it in storage and gave the memories of these threads into Mat's head.
The Ghosts are around because the world is about to transition into another age. The barriers are weakening between the worlds. So just like our world, for some reason a person's soul still has connectivity to the “real” world. They can not be fully into either.
The ToG can not be the gateway, because of the shear number of people being killed. There are a number of Armies, not to mention the brigandines and the environments where law and order has broken down, where people are being killed or dieing constantly. The world would be over run with Ghosts and it wouldn't be a few isolated incidents.
I do not know why the ghosts have appeared, but I would tend to think that it has something to do with the DO being able to touch the world and influence the environment with growing power. Maybe the DO is slipping and he is concentrating more on winning instead of receiving souls :)
16
JakOShadows: 2005-07-29
What about the other souls that aren't connected to the DO at all though? Are you saying that the ones connected to the DO still have to be pulled to him in some way? Because I thought the souls all went to one place, then from there the oaths to the dark one are what allowed him his manipulations after death.
17
Richard: 2005-07-29
The tower of Ghenjei "ghost" are a likely explanation for what Mat and Rand saw. But rather than Ghosts, they seem residues of memories to me. Just people being about their bussiness. Not crosing walls and scaring the shit out of family.
The other ghost seem to be localised around one particular place... that city. Maybe Fain? Maybe the DO? is something like that for perrin senses to react like that. But I do not think that this ghosts and the ones MAt/Rand saw are anything like. These ones are ghosts. The things that Mat saw were probably fragments of memories from the tower.
