ortal Stones and Other Worlds...
by Cha Faile: 2004-12-17 | 2 out of 10 (2 votes)
We know that people in this world can use Portal Stones to move from world to world, so is it possible for someone from another world to enter the world of Rand?
The core of the theory is this: I think that someone could enter the present World and stay there for as long as they wish, perhaps live there for the rest of their lives.
Unfortunately, i have found no quotations that could support the idea, it was more of a revelation.:)
If people from "our" world could enter other worlds, other people could enter "our world".
Rand, Mat, Selene etc use the Portal Stone to travel somewhere but if they chose, they could stay in that world.
What if someone from another world, who knew how to use a Stone came into, what is fondly referred to as, "Randland" and began to live there.
The only problems that i foresee are the fact that nothing has yet been mentioned that could suggest this was a possibility. Also, the Portal Stones don't connect with every world and few have extensive knowledge of them. Another problem is this: What motives would a person have to enter another world? Perhaps travelling, like Rand but got stranded in this world-doubtful. Maybe, they sought to learn more of other worlds? I'm sure the Brown Ajah would leap at the chance to enter a different world.
As for people who could have come through a Stone...maybe Padan Fain?
Despite the lack of evidence, it seems logical to me that this could occur. But then again, my logic could be slightly warped.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-06
I guess I am partial to any theory touching on Portal Stones and T'A'R. In our study of T'A'R and the Unseen World, we found that Mirror Worlds reside within a dimension of T'A'R. They are mirrors of reality, and their existence depends on the unseen world. In other words, "Lanfear through Loial makes an important point. The world Rand and company traveled to was a "weak reflection." There is only one real universe. Each person has one thread. There is only one Creator and Dark One, and the Mirror Worlds are reflections of what might have been, not a part of reality. All of these clues point to the fact that these worlds reside somewhere inside the Pattern but outside of the real universe. It all points to the fact that the Mirror Worlds reside within the Unseen World, where these reflections can play themselves out but cannot affect the real world. If these worlds resided in real time and space somewhere, then those inhabitants would be able to travel using the Portal Stones and visit the real world. This isn't possible. Mirror Worlds don't really exist; they are a simulation run by the pattern of probabilities and possibilities. (quote from the study)" There is only one "real" Rand, every other Rand is a simulation, a mirror, and has no "reality" outside the bounds of its simulation. So, a simulated Rand, using a portal stone in a mirror world, could not enter the "real" world. That is my opinion. Real people can go visit their simulations, their mirrors, but mirrors cannot come out of the mirror (unless there is a bubble of evil and your evil twins attempt to take you over...this being one of a few exceptions to the rule.)
2
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-02-06
The big white book says Seanchan creatures were brought back through a portal stone, pretty much validating your theory.
Though I thought Verin mentioned that no one has used Portal Stones since the Age of Legends. Is that right? If so, it kind of screws up the idea that the Seanchan knew how. But anything's possible I guess.
3
a dragonburned fool: 2005-02-07
Well, Cha Faile, there is an evidence: the Seanchan beasts (grolms, rakens, torms, krolms, lopars) have their origin from the mirror worlds and are imported via Portal stones. BWB said so in the chapter about the Seanchan exotic animals. However the best quote is from one interview Jordan gave:
quote:
Q15: Were the Seanchan animals created before or after the Shadowspawn?
A15: They are the ‘exotics'. They were brought to Randland from parallel dimensions (like in the portal stones). When Rand saw grolm in the PS world, he was seeing them in the native ‘land'.
So grolms have their native land in the weak reflection Rand visited, and nevertheless they were brought to Rand's world and here they are able to give birth, and they litle ones to give birth etc. So the possibility of something from an other world to live well in Rand's world is well proven.
4
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-07
Just as Moghedien somehow used T'A'R to push Birgitte out and somehow that produced a real body in the real world, doesn't mean Birgitte should or could naturally have brought herself into the real world. If an individual created by a mirror world could transport himself or herself through a portal stone into the real world, it would have happened. It can't happen. Can a real person go to a mirror world, and bring back an entity created by a mirror world? It would appear that may be a possibility. However, the caveat remains; mirror worlds are reflections of real worlds. In other words, if there are grolm in a mirror world, there are grolm in a real world that the mirror world reflects. How the grolm were brought back to the real world is an exception to a rule, just as giving Birgitte a real body was an exception.
5
Anubis: 2005-02-08
Animals maybe, humans might be a little more difficult. Or it might not matter. Animals exist simultaneously in TAR and the Waking World, this could be the difference meaning people cant switch worlds. Or it could mean nothing, there is really no evidence.
Its a crazy theory when you start thinking about it. What was stoping Rand from living in the other world? It would seem that his Taverenness affected him in the other world. Does this mean that the real world is the only one with Taveren? Perhaps that is the difference between the real world and the "reflections" (oh god stop me now i have no idea where i am going with this). So lets say we have 1001 worlds. We really have infinite but you cant do math with infinite worlds so... here goes. In 500 worlds the shadow controlls the pattern. In 500 worlds the shadow is sealed. There would be varrying degrees of sealed and in controll etc etc. Then we have the "real" world. It would be the balance point. The shadow wins, it gets majority, it is free in all. Reverse is true as well. Because this world is the odd man out, it is more hotly contested and it gets heroes. (There should only be one set of heroes because there is only one TAR for all the worlds... right?)
However, if this is the case, then it is unlikely someone would be able to jump worlds. It requires a Ta'veren to make a huge jump like that and if the Ta'veren are only in Randland then Randland would force them to come back.
6
Flinnd: 2005-02-09
So... what would happen if a man and a woman entered a mirror world and decided to live there and have some children. Are those children native to Randland or native to the mirror world? If they are native the mirror world, will they exist at all in Randland (seeing as their parents were never there to give birth to them)? This would give us a soul being spun in an alternate world that doesn't currently exist in Randland.
I know this doesn't answer anything specific in this theory, but I feel it applies to the topic. It gives us the possibility of a soul being "more real" in a mirror world than in Randland-proper, which could allow for a native mirror-worlder to travel to Randland.
7
Khaos: 2005-02-15
Anubis I am fairly sure that Verin mentions from her studies is that the Dark One is the only constant in all realities he is either bound in all or free in all and although she doesn't say it if you fill in the blank the randland reality being the 'real' one is the determining factor.
As for the whole idea I'm with tamyrlin a mirror worlder cannot choose to cross over themselves but evidence would suggest that they can be brought over by a 'Real' worlder.
How this would affect the soul I'm not sure and what would be the consequences of having two differnt versions of the same person. Maybe thats how RJ plans to have things fall out maybe Rand will gather up a few mirror Rands some will die satidfying prophecy and allowing him to live on.
8
Lugh of the Vanth: 2006-11-16
Clarify if I'm wrong, please, since I don't have my books on hand at the moment. I thought that the Portal Stones, aside from taking a "traveler" to reflections of this world, could take a person to other stones in the same world and other worlds entirely.
So, a person from a reflection of Randland would have trouble existing, since their reality is a weak parallel of the current onem but couldn't a person from another world entirely, a world that isn't a reflection of the real one, but one that runs alongside the real one live in Randland?
9
JakOShadows: 2006-11-18
Lugh:
It might be possible, but the only world we could say that about would be finnland. We haven't seen any other real worlds as your talking about. At least not that I know of.
10
ValaV: 2007-01-27
Instead of Verin going to a Portal stone world, it would be interesting to learn that she came from one. Consider that she learned she could channel even though she lived inside Far Madding, a place that is guarded by channeling. Unless in a different world it was not. That's is assuming she never took a walk outside the vicinity. Also, she has never met Cadsuane, only heard of her although Verin is old enough and has been in the tower long enough and most other AS recognize her on sight. Also consider Verin's age, since the oldest Knitting cirle member is over 400 and she is at least half as much older than any other Aes Sedai yet Verin states that herself, her children, and her grandchildren would be long dead should she not have made a curiosity choice (meaning she might not ever have been raised to Aes Sedai in this world's Tower). Which is strange in itself because being an Aes Sedai does not make u live a longer life, but shorter one.
?? :)
11
minalth: 2007-01-31
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that most aes sedi do not know whether they can channel or not until they travelled to the tower to be tested.
Verin wouldn't have had to know that she could channel before going to the tower and therefore this is not evidence that she is from another world.
12
JakOShadows: 2007-02-01
ValaV:
I think you may have misinterpreted the books there. The three oaths give AS shorter life spans than AS in the AoL, but they still can live far longer lives than the average person. It isn't impossible.
13
englermeister: 2008-05-08
khaos:"Verin mentions from her studies is that the Dark One is the only constant in all realities he is either bound in all or free in all"
in the books it is said that if the DO is freed in one mirror world he is freed in them all but if he is still bound in one he is bound in them all.
I think RJ meant the pattern to be something big, so big that it was impossible to fully comprehend. like understanding everything about the pattern would reveal the meaning of life or some such. If this is the case then I'm not sure RJ would have worked everything out about these mirror worlds other than the rules necesary to the actual story.
so the thoughts about someone from a mirror world coming to the 'real' world might be like that. but then again if a 'real' person travelled to a mirror world wouldn't that have the same problems with two souls and such as a 'mirror' person travelling to the 'real' world and living in the same world. If someone native to the mirror world worked out how to use a portal stone I don't see why they couldn't travel to the 'real' world.
however it may be that the strength of the reflection of the world may limit travel. such as a thin reflection might not be able to travel to a more solid world only to a weaker one and back again. this would limit travel to the 'real' world other than for people who were from it. but that wouldn't stop reflections of people in other worlds travelling to other mirror worlds.
or none of this may have answers as RJ meant it to be never understood.
14
vardene: 2008-05-11
***in the books it is said that if the DO is freed in one mirror world he is freed in them all but if he is still bound in one he is bound in them all***.
Yeah, really confusing. So if Rand breaks the seals, then the DO is but LT seals up the patch in another world so the DO is not free. How does anyone explain that?
***so the thoughts about someone from a mirror world coming to the 'real' world might be like that. but then again if a 'real' person travelled to a mirror world wouldn't that have the same problems with two souls and such as a 'mirror' person travelling ***
Do i smell a theory? :)
15
JakOShadows: 2008-05-15
vardene: I know its a big no-no to do this, but it can be related through physics. You know how when matter travels through space it leaves a trail of antimatter. That's how I think of all of the mirror world's other people. And when they interact, it creates an alternate reality, which also is theory of physics. That there are bunches of alternate dimensions that we can't sense in anyway, that are created every moment and are in actually all the other paths the universe could have taken. To me, it seems to essentially be the same thing Verin is saying, only she says it in a less scientific sense, which can make it more or less confusing depending on how you think.
16
Blue Moon: 2008-10-16
Sorry for digging up this old thread but I started re-reading the books again and it got me wondering about the potential use for the Portal Stones. Of course, this could all be moot since I'm back at the beginning and don't recall all of the finer points of the later books and I'm only referencing books 2 and 3 and the guide here.
First, reading through this theory, I don't think it is possible for someone living in a reflection world to bring themself into the real world; I do, however, think a real world person may be able to transport a portal world person to the real world, though I'm not sure what effects that might have on that person. We've seen it is possible with the exotic Seanchan creatures.
The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
Chapter 3, The Age of Legends, pp. 36 (capitalization added for emphasis):
There are records of people of the Age even transporting to other worlds, both AMONG THE STARS (? really?!) and in other dimensions. Portal Stones, activated by the One Power, allowed the users AND ANY WHO ACCOMPANIED THEM to travel to other dimensions and worlds within the universe of the Wheel. It is doubtful that Portal Stones were used regularly by any other than Aes Sedai, because skill and strength in the Power were needed to activate them.
Granted, that "and any who accompanied them" part may not refer to portal stone world people coming back with them though.
Here's some things that stuck out to me while re-reading the first few books:
Verin tells Egwene that there are 3 constants in any and all worlds (I'm paraphrasing, of course). The Creator, The Dark One, and Tel'aran'rhiod.
(From The Dragon Reborn, chapter 21: A World of Dreams, pp. 239-240)
"...There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all.So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned in all."
"...The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod, "the Unseen World." Perhaps "the World of Dreams" is a better translation."
What I got from this is the Dark One doesn't necessarily have to be fought or his prison re-sealed in the real world. If he's bound in one, he's bound in them all.
And then there was this (capitalization added by me):
The Great Hunt
Chapter 16, In the Mirror of Darkness, pp. 258:
(Loial talking to Rand while riding in the Portal Stone world after meeting Selene [Lanfear])
"She is a fascinating woman, isn't she? Some of the Elders don't know as much as she does about history--- especially the Age of Legends--- and about--- oh, yes. She says you were right about the Ways, Rand. The Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She says there are worlds where it is TIME RATHER THAN DISTANCE that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round. Those worlds--- this one, all the others--- are reflections of the real world, she says. This one seems pale to us because it is a weak reflection, a world that had little chance of ever being. OTHERS ARE ALMOST AS LIKELY AS OURS. THOSE ARE AS SOLID AS OUR WORLD, AND HAVE PEOPLE. THE SAME PEOPLE, SHE SAYS, RAND. Imagine it! YOU COULD GO TO ONE OF THEM AND MEET YOURSELF. The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be."
Time didn't drastically change this first trip. He was only two or three days ahead of Fain when they re-appeared in the real world and had to wait in Kinslayer's Dagger in order to take back the Horn of Valere and the Shadar Logoth dagger.
However, there was a problem when Rand tried transporting himself, Verin, Perrin, Loail, Mat, Ingtar and the other Shienaran soldiers out of Cairhein to Toman Head:
Remember all those flickers?
And then...
The Great Hunt, Chapter 37, What Might Be, pp. 532:
A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. I have won again, Lews Therin.
That time using the Stone took them four months.
I think it's important to note that in those lives he saw, he was many things: a farmer, a soldier, etc. Sometimes he knew he was the Dragon, sometimes not. But each time, he heard Ishmael whisper those words to him, so I think it's safe to assume that no matter what choices he makes, in any world or life he is and was the Dragon. That doesn't change.
So I started to wonder if it were possible if he could somehow create a diversion at Tarmon Gai'don using a Portal Rand while he tried to sneak in under the radar, either through Tel'aran'rhiod or a Portal Stone world, to re-seal the DO's prison. Or something to that effect. I don't have a theory, I'm just wondering if anyone thinks it's possible.
Yes, there's inherent problems with this thought. To name the ones off the top of my head:
1. Lanfear spoke of the instruction book (if you will) for the Stones, Mirrors of the Wheel, but Verin says it is generally believed that no copy survived the Breaking whole. So how would Rand be able to go to just the right world where he could find an "as likely" Rand and work out a plan. I've nothing to suggest that this is even possible but perhaps those books of Fel's that Min is reading could provide a clue. That's a wing and a prayer though. And he can't get it from Lanfear now, that's for sure! So I don't know how to solve this problem unless he asked the Finn people or some other twist of fate happens.
2. In those worlds he did get a glimpse in, on going to Toman Head, he died in every one. So even though Loail said you could go to one of the more likely worlds and meet yourself, would it be too late? Then again, there's that whole time thing regarding those Portal Stone worlds (and I doubt this but it's worth throwing in the stew pot anyway, perhaps that is a clue to the whole "twice dawns the day" thing, but that would only apply to Rand... or maybe an eclipse? I don't know, it's been a while since I've read the whole series through).
Then again, as I said earlier, I'm back at the beginning of the books and this may all be moot. Which, if that's the case, I apologize for dusting off this old thread :)
