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at's Mental Dice Link Him To The Eelfinn

by Zorpisuttle: 2005-10-16 | 4.65 out of 10 (31 votes)

Recent Categories: Mat, Thom, Moiraine, and the Tower of Ghenjei

Theory: I propose that the dice in Mat's head are directly connected to the Eelfinn's memory-harvesting system.

In chapter 8 of Knife of Dreams, Mat remembers dying and comes to an unpleasant realization about his memories. He muses that his replacement memories had to have been hand-picked, so to speak, since there weren't any of anyone's childhood, like there might be if it was just a random assortment. Also, the memories tend to suit the characterization the *Finn gave him ("trickster, gambler, son of battles"). He wonders what the *Finn "do with memories, anyway".

We know from Moiraine that the Aelfinn "rummage around" in visitor's heads, though even she doesn't know why. The Eelfinn appear to do the same. Mat reaches the conclusion that

"Maybe they created some sort of link to any human who visted them, a link that allowed them to copy all of a man's memories after that right up to the moment he died." [Chapter 8, KoD]

Sounds pretty logical to me. But what could that link be? Ironically enough, it was Mat saying

"Having those foxes in his head was a thousand times worse than the dice however hard those dice rattled." [Chapter 8, KoD]

that made me think of the dice as that link.

After all, it's pretty obvious that they are in some way connected to his foretold future. They stop whenever something fateful happens- and they roll for battles (though never street brawls, interestingly enough) and for many things connected with Tuon. Very telling also is that we first hear of the dice rolling in The Fires of Heaven, chapter 42, after Mat has visited both the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. Also, we've never heard of any other character having these fate-alarms in their head. Moiraine and Rand have both visited the Aelfinn doorway, but they only have other people in their heads, not nonliving objects. Partially because of that, I think that planting the dice was something that the Eelfinn did.

There are more reasons I think the Eelfinn did it rather than the Aelfinn. We know that there's some measure of collaboration between the Eelfinn and the Aelfinn, but they differ from each other in a number of ways. The Eelfinn seem more aggressive- they wear human-skin suspenders and took Mat's death as the price. Also, the very fact that they ask a price for their services makes them different from the Aelfinn- the customary "rummage through your memories at the door" isn't enough of a reward. They seem more likely to try to trick the customer (by planting a memory-collecting device in them) than the Aelfinn. Maybe as a result of those tricksy Eelfinn, foxes in WoT folklore are seen as much more sly than snakes.

In the same vein, they could actually have been fufilling their bargain, but in a sneaky way.

The actual text of Mat's first request is

'"I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. Well, if I had my way I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer--!"

"Done," one of the men growled, and Mat blinked.' [Chapter 24, The Shadow Rising]

He got the holes in his memory filled, sure enough, but he also asked for the holes in his life filled. What he technically asks for is the answer to his questions, but Eelfinn aren't the Aelfinn. They don't give answers, they grant wishes. So his wish for the holes in his life filled- that could be interpreted as a wish to understand his fate, as well as a restatement of the 'holes in my memory'. Indeed, he asks them to fill in the holes in his future as well as the holes in his past. Well, he already has a future, but he doesn't understand it, which is the problem. So they gave him a way to understand it- the dice. The dice tell him when something fateful occurs, keeping him informed of the future course of his life. But in order for them to know that something fateful has occured, they need to be able to scan his thread the way the *Finn can- thus, the dice are most likely directly linked to the Eelfinn.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-16

Welcome to Theoryland, Zorpisuttle. You have submitted a great first theory. There is a definite change regarding the dice in Mat's head and it makes complete sense that it would have something to do with the Finns. We know that the Finns are a form of "evil" in the sense that they are very different from humans, and have their own motives for giving information and tracking, if Mat is right, human memories. Have you considered that Mat is being guided by the Eelfinn, using the Dice. In other words, do the Eelfinn have anything invested in Mat doing what he has done? What does Mat's fate have to do with the Eelfinn? I like the line of thought you have here, because I have a theory regarding the Eelfinn wanting Mat to return to their lands, by holding Moiraine. I think I may be able to use some of what you have done here to support that idea. Good luck. I doubt all of the replies you will receive will be quite as positive. :)

2

jason wolfbrother: 2005-10-17

just one problem. Mat first hears the dice in TDR way before either trip through a doorway.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 52 - In Search of a Remedy

With a laugh that made even the sullen folk in the street look at him, he headed back for The White Crescent, uncaring of mud or the damp heat. He could feel the dice tumbling inside his head.**

Otherwise I kinda like this theory. But the dice appeared before the journey so no dice (pun intended).

3

a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-17

The main hole in this theory is that IIRC the forst time the dice in Mat's head appear is in tDR when he goes out of Tar Valon. This is before he visited any *finns. Or do you mean that *finns arranged to be active in Mat's head even BEFORE Mat came to them?

4

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17

I want to read that quote in context. It seemed to be saying, that as he was watching the dice, he could feel them tumble in his head. However, no mention of this until late in Fires of Heaven when it actually becomes a "fate" device. And that was the only mention of "dice" being in his head in the Dragon Reborn. Can anyone post the context around that first quote in Dragon Reborn, because IIRC, it isn't the same thing.

5

samwise: 2005-10-17

FIrst post.

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but it seeems that since the Finns "cooperate" only for a price, they will release Moraine to Mat for the price of his eye. Rand can not win "save the world" without Moraine. Mat will give up half the light in the world to save the world. Why would the Finns ask for his eye of all things? Maybe Mat will offer it off-handedly and the Finns will take it literally.

6

Traveller: 2005-10-17

Yes, I think that this is definitely possible:

When the dice are mentioned before, no big thing seems to be made of them, but they would (and are) when Mat actually feels dice tumbling around.

Unless someone can provide a better quote from before the Eelfinn visit, the quote that jason wolfbrother made can be explained simply by using a kind of metaphor, Mat simply saying that he can feel that his luck is part of what was happenning that night.

I do agree that this is more plausible than what I thought before- Lanfear planting the dice; but I think that it still depends on whether you take the quote from before his visit to the Eelfinns literally or not.

7

Davian93: 2005-10-17

****Maybe Mat will offer it off-handedly and the Finns will take it literally****

Excerpt from Book 12 (early draft)

"Why, I'd give my right eye for Moiraine to be free."

"Done"

"Done"

"What?!? I was just...Thom you're the one who likes her, you give an eye. Take your bloody hands off me!"

Several Finn surrounded Mat and one pulled out a large silver spoon and proceeded to scoop his eye out...

8

lurk: 2005-10-17

well i agree with Zorpisutle and tam here. But JWB your quote is something to be looked into.

I have always linked the dice in mats head with his thread of fate. evertime something important happens to mat when the dice start tumbling and when they stop he has always done something with regard to his fate.

The absolutely strangest one imo was not leaving ebou dar because he had to find olver. Thus he stayed and came to meet tuon. One of the major parts of his destiny. when that wall crumbled onto him the dice stopped dead.

same with the trust issue in Wh. Tuon needed the trust from mat to make up her mind about what to do.

It would be interesting to see if the dice are linked to the seanchan only or that they can be linked to the seanchan somehow.

Mat is absolutely necessary to get the seanchan to figth in the last battle with Rand. I need to find some proof of this though

9

jason wolfbrother: 2005-10-17

Here you go Tam.

**TDR Ch. 52 In Search of a Remedy

Mat grinned at the white-haired man. "I have enjoyed knowing you, Thom."

As he hurried out into the street, he found himself wondering why he had said that. He isnt't going to bloody die. That woman will keep him alive if she has to drag him kicking and screaming out of his grave by his mustaches. Yes, but who is going to keep me alive?

Ahead of him, the Stone of Tear loomed over the city, impregnable, a fortress besieged a hundred times, a stone on which a hundred armies had broken their teeth. And he had to get inside. And bring out three women. Somehow.

With a laugh that made even the sullen folk in the street look at him, he headed back for The White Crescent, uncaring of mud or the damp heat. He could feel the dice tumbling inside his head.**

So nothing to do with an actual game of dice. Just the fate of three women held inside a fortress that had never fallen. Nothing special ;)

10

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17

Again, I think it is a figure of speech at this point, maybe a precursor to what Jordan knew was coming, a play on words.

11

therobotbadger: 2005-10-17

I think the fact that the quote says Mat "felt" the dice makes it more than a metaphor. If he had "heard" or "saw" them in his head, or something along those lines, then I could see it being metaphorical. But that fact that this quote says he felt the dice tumbling in his head at a key moment in Mat's fate leads me to believe it's more than a turn of phrase.

I always associated the dice with Mat's ta'verenness. I mean, the dice are symbolic for luck, and I think it's pretty much agreed by everyone that Mat's luck comes from him being ta'veren. Unless we're saying that the 'Finn gave Mat his luck, which I don't think I can get behind.

12

Zorpisuttle: 2005-10-17

I'm pretty sure it's a figure of speech, though if it isn't I'll be forced to eat raven. I used the Encyclopedia WoT to get the information about when Mat first heard the dice, because I didn't remember, and it said that the first time was in Chapter 24 of TFoH. I went with their assessment.

As for your idea, Tamyrlin, I think it's definitely likely that the *Finns would use the link to control him. Obviously, the Aelfinn at least can see the future pattern of an individual's life. I'm not sure if the Eelfinn can- that might be one of the respects in which they differ- but I suppose if they're planting links then they ought to know how to work them. The Aelfinn were very adamant about him obeying his fate and not letting his thread be cast adrift- adamant enough that they told him his fate, even though that was technically a fourth question. They definately want the savory ta'veren alive, and perhaps under their control, or at least some control. The Eelfinn might want to control him for similar reasons- tasty memories and some sexy suspenders as a bonus. I'd say both species of *Finn have a vested interest in controlling Mat and keeping an eye on his oh-so-delicious life thread. (Mmm, tastes like ta'veren!)

13

Anuzan: 2005-10-17

Your Theory is a rather good one but i seem to remember that the dice appeared when the link between the shadar logath dagger was broken cause thats when his luck started to kick.

On that first night he gambled as he left tar valon his luck went nuts and this is what is linked to the dice

14

Callandor: 2005-10-18

**I want to read that quote in context. It seemed to be saying, that as he was watching the dice, he could feel them tumble in his head. However, no mention of this until late in Fires of Heaven when it actually becomes a "fate" device.**

But the dice in Tear were obviously a fate device too. They start up just before he breaks into the Stone.

**Why would the Finns ask for his eye of all things? Maybe Mat will offer it off-handedly and the Finns will take it literally.**

Or because that is where their connection is -- what better place to "see" the world, than an eye?

**Unless someone can provide a better quote from before the Eelfinn visit, the quote that jason wolfbrother made can be explained simply by using a kind of metaphor, Mat simply saying that he can feel that his luck is part of what was happenning that night.**

Then that metaphor can be applied to every instance Mat hears the dice.

**I have always linked the dice in mats head with his thread of fate. evertime something important happens to mat when the dice start tumbling and when they stop he has always done something with regard to his fate.**

Well, since he went into the Stone (when the dice started) he got Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene out of the jail and away from the Black Ajah, and helped infiltrate the Stone of Tear. This, allowed him to stay in the Stone, he met up with everyone else, and eventually went into the doorway there and eventually to Rhuidean.

I don't see why people do not include this event as a big one for Mat's fate, yet include ones such as him buying a zebra.

**Unless we're saying that the 'Finn gave Mat his luck, which I don't think I can get behind.**

That clearly didn't happen since he was lucky way before he went through either of their doorways.

15

Zorpisuttle: 2005-10-18

**But the dice in Tear were obviously a fate device too. They start up just before he breaks into the Stone.**

But then where do they come from? Why does Mat have fate alarms and nobody else does? If it was just one of those ta'veren things, then wouldn't Rand and Perrin have some sort of equivalent fate alarms? I mean, obviously it wouldn't be dice because that's Mat's province, but you'd think they'd have something.

I'm pretty sure that the dice are connected to his fate as revealed/understood by the *Finn. The Eelfinn may not be in the habit of telling one's fate unless asked ("holes in my life"), and even then they would give it in the form of an item rather than a verbal answer, but the Aelfinn don't tell fates unless they're asked or they feel it's important enough to tell even if they haven't been asked. So both species of *Finn can read life-threads, though it isn't necessarily their main function.

I think the dice only roll and stop for *Finn-approved 'fate-alities'. If they started before he met the *Finn, then how do the dice know when to roll? Is it just the Pattern's whims, which would mean it had to do with being ta'veren, which would mean we have to look for a similar device in Rand's and Perrin's heads?

Also, I just thought of this- do the Tear dice ever stop? RJ makes a point of mentioning when Mat's dice stop in his head. Unless you can find me a quote saying when they stopped dead, I'm going to assume they're a metaphor.

16

lurk: 2005-10-18

That is a good remark Zorpisuttle, everytime the dice were linked to his fate it is in Mat's POV that they stopped.

I think this is a very strong indication that the dice from tear are not exactly the same as the dice further on in the books

17

icspots: 2005-10-18

Okay so try this. (please note that this requires you to believe that Matt's "dice in his head" quote in TDR was metaphor or ta'vereness and not the same as the rest of the books)

The dice in Matt's head are the little red light going on on the Finn's camcorder. They read his thread and know when those juicy things are going to happen so they're grabbing them.

This also explains Matt's new memories if you don't agree with the theory of dead souls going to the ToG. So all of the people from Matt's memories went to the Finn's but maybe the Finn's "recorded" their experiences through the link they forged after they left the tower. So if souls don't go to the ToG then that could also explain how many of the memories that the Finn's had were of the person's death.

18

Zorpisuttle: 2005-10-18

**The dice in Mat's head are the little red light going on on the Finn's camcorder. They read his thread and know when those juicy things are going to happen so they're grabbing them.**

Either that, or it's the Eelfinn killing two birds with one stone. They seem the types. I can see them interpreting Mat's request for the "holes in his life filled" as a request to understand his fate better, thus they get a chance to plant their recording device in his head while legitimately fufilling his wish. We know they have leeway in granting requests/answering questions- the fourth question that the Aelfinn answer is proof enough of this- and I figure that if the Eelfinn thought they could get something out of giving him a little extra (which he did specify that he wanted, with his talk of answering questions), they would jump at the chance. And after all, the more you buy the more you have to pay. The Eelfinn enjoy being paid very much, I would imagine.

**This also explains Matt's new memories...**

Which is basically what Mat realizes in KoD.

19

Callandor: 2005-10-19

**But then where do they come from? Why does Mat have fate alarms and nobody else does? If it was just one of those ta'veren things, then wouldn't Rand and Perrin have some sort of equivalent fate alarms? I mean, obviously it wouldn't be dice because that's Mat's province, but you'd think they'd have something.**

We do not know. Yes, it's still possible for us to not know things.

Why is Rand the only channeler among the three? Why is Perrin a wolfbrother?

As far as we know it's natural, or from the Shadow, or from Shadar Logoth dagger, for Mat. The Aelfinn do not explain it since Mat had the dice in his head before he went into them.

"Also, I just thought of this- do the Tear dice ever stop? RJ makes a point of mentioning when Mat's dice stop in his head. Unless you can find me a quote saying when they stopped dead, I'm going to assume they're a metaphor."

Then you're going to have to explain how Mat was feeling them. Otherwise, you're ignoring evidence.

20

Anuzan: 2005-10-19

Guys, i believe both the finns can see the future that of those they go through the doorways.

So wouldnt they get the memories from what they see in the peoples futures because what they see would be stuff like battles that were death or turning points in the peoples lifes

21

Tamyrlin: 2005-10-19

Callandor, the quote was explained away. Does Mat talk about the dice stopping, during this one moment that can be found regarding dice in his head? Mat was felling lucky; it was a metaphor. It isn't until after his trip to the Eelfinn, that the dice become a regular occurrence, spinning in his head, which he notices as something new and annoying and disconcerting. Are you suggesting that the Finns couldn't have accentuated something about Mat, that might already have been a small talent that he had. He was lucky, so they turned his luck into a fate indicator. That one reference doesn't kill this theory. It is a huge stretch to say that the reference to dice in his head...compared to his location and what he was about to do, creates causation.

22

haertchen: 2005-10-19

"Also, I just thought of this- do the Tear dice ever stop? RJ makes a point of mentioning when Mat's dice stop in his head. Unless you can find me a quote saying when they stopped dead, I'm going to assume they're a metaphor."

I'm afraid this doesn't work. Most abilities characters in the series have, develop slowly. Rand starts remembering things from LTT well before he hears a voice explicitely. Mat's memories become explicit slowly. Perrin begins to understand wolves over the course of time. The vague nature of the dice Matt feels in his head is much more likely to be due to the fact that its one of the early manifestations, rather than any truly fundamental difference.

23

Baean AimaDe: 2005-10-19

Except mat's "talent" for dice doesn't develop Slowly. we go from one minor reference(sp?) in TDR to TFoH where every referrence(sp?) from then on. There is no gradual like you see with the others, no steps along the way.

24

Callandor: 2005-10-19

** Mat was felling lucky; it was a metaphor.**

Then why is he feeling them in his head if they are just a metaphor? Why isn't it "Mat could sense the dice weren't in his favor" or something else? Why is it that Mat specifically feels the dice in his head, at a time when it was of obvious importance to his destiny -- if it was just a metaphor?

**It is a huge stretch to say that the reference to dice in his head...compared to his location and what he was about to do, creates causation.**

How is it a huge stretch Tam? It said explicitly -- the dice were felt; they were felt in his head.

Where's the stretch here? And I haven't been the one shouting causation here -- others have said the dice indicate key times in Mat's fate. I would agree. The time in Tear is a perfect example of it.

Is the cause the Shadar Logoth dagger? Is it blind Pattern interference? Is it a ta'veren feature? Who knows. But the time in Tear where Mat felt the dice in his head is the same circumstances as any other time that people bring up.

Others have said that Mat doesn't hear the dice stop in this instance. Well, everyone would agree that Mat clearly hears the dice in the Battle of Cairhien -- but they never stop either.

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 42 - Before the Arrow

"He had no idea why he had not simply ignored them. Except that his step was lighter and he felt full of vinegar. No wonder, really, leaving tomorrow at last. The dice seemed to be spinning in his head, and there was no knowing what pips would show when they landed. Odd, that. It must be Melindhra worrying him. Yes. He would definitely leave early, and as quietly as a mouse tiptoeing on feathers.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 44 - The Lesser Sadness

That should bring the Shaido in right enough, especially if Couladin was leading. If Couladin really was leading, if he thought Rand was with the pikes, if the pikes could hold until the horse arrived. . . A lot of ifs. Mat could hear those dice rolling in his head again. This was the biggest gamble he had ever taken in his life. He wondered how long it was until nightfall; a man should be able to make his way out in the night. He wished those dice would get out of his head, or else fall so he knew what they showed. Scowling into the rain, he booted Pips on down the hillside.**

They're mentioned at continuing, but not stopping.

25

Crazy Ernie: 2005-10-24

I kind of like this theory, but I think the quote from TDR makes it unlikely at best. I think the wording is too specific and too similar to how Matt describes the dice in his head later, to be taken as a metaphor.

It seems to me that this would be a great question to ask RJ on the book tour - Is the episode with the Stone of Tear the first time Mat feels the dice in his head?

26

IkilledAsmodean: 2005-10-25

I'm with Callandor here. The dice were there before the Finns. It seems to be quite a bit more than a metaphor, especiually as in Mat's own POV, (which has been sued several tiems in this argument) that first mention was described as the dice tumbling in his head. Instances since then have oftened described it in exactly the same way. Tumbling in his head.

As for the theory on this being a developing manifestation, remember that it's generally attributed with his luck. Whicy was a slow manifestation in itself. He got stronger and strogner in his luck, and still gets more so. He was very lucky before they left Emond's Feild in the first place. And slowly, that luck built. Everyone usually indicates the dagger as some sort of catalyst, but he was lucky before that. He started speaking the Old Tounge before that. he started building into the guy he is by KOD then and there before the original party even fully makes it out of Andor. And now? well, we don't even get those references about him losing anymore. He used to lose some at cards, and still occasionally at dice. Now he seems to NEVER lose at just about anything. And the dice come with mroe frequency, as well, and have grown so, book by book, over time.

Like Rand and Perrin, Mat had natural things that developed and continue to develop. To chalk some of it up to the Finns, another peice to Shadar Logoth, throw another batch out as a metaphor.....I don't buy that.

The dice in his head in Tear are the same dice that are in his head now.

Why do I smell a pair of factions forming here?

27

a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-26

Aelfinns are able to read futures in the very moment of the meeting with the questioner. So I'm still sceptical that *Finns would need to place a tracking mechanism in Mat's head. But if the dice is just something indicating important for Finns entry in one's life, why cannot this alarm work also BEFORE the person entered the lands of *finns? Eelfinns and Aelfinns have very strange timing synchronization tto Randland.

***"Also, I just thought of this- do the Tear dice ever stop? RJ makes a point of mentioning when Mat's dice stop in his head. Unless you can find me a quote saying when they stopped dead, I'm going to assume they're a metaphor." ***

The dice stopping became mentioned in Mat's head relatively late, the first time I reacll it was in Ebou Dar (or was it in Salidar). In ny case Mat is wondering about he strange stopping of dice in Ebou Dar. And it doesn;t happen earlier with the dice that often were heard in battles and other dangerous moments.

28

brother of Battles: 2005-10-26

"Moiraine and Rand have both visited the Aelfinn doorway, but they only have other people in their heads, not nonliving objects. Partially because of that, I think that planting the dice was something that the Eelfinn did."

When was it ever said that Moiraine heard voices in her head? I thought it was just Rand, and as it turns out, it was more then just a voice. I want to believe this was just a typo, but I don't think it was. As far as I know, nothing outwardly bad happened to Moiraine when she went into the doorframe.

It doesn't sound like that bad of a thoery besides that little mistake though. But I still think Mat "giving up half the light of the world to save the other half" is just a metephore also. I do NOT think he will have to give up his eye. I think Mat is going to have to sacrifice the Sanchan lands to save Randland. He is going to give up of half of the world, so that his half will be saved.

29

vlad snuffles: 2005-10-27

your theory is valid, and an intelligent one, but it is still not made explicitly certain whether or not something happened to Moiraine when she visited the Aelfinn. For all we know, she was given a new Talent. It is still unexplained how she knew she wasn’t going to die in the letter she left for Thom, or how it was crucial for certain events that Mat didn’t know the letter was from her until he asked.

30

Zorpisuttle: 2005-10-27

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear with the Moiraine mention. I just meant that she had a Warder, therefore she had "someone in her head". Unclear explanation on my part.

"He was very lucky before they left Emond's Feild in the first place" In what way? I don't know what book it's in, but I remember him saying something about playing dice with a merchant's guard and losing terribly. Granted, that probably happened a while ago and his luck could have manifested a bit by the time Moiraine came, so I suppose it doesn't really matter.

31

IkilledAsmodean: 2005-10-27

Vlad.....perhaps you should go back and re-read the events after Moirane went through the door in Rhuiden in the Aiel Waste. She came across somethign allowing her to see the effects of the great many decisions of her life.

In other words...she knew this would happen the same way she knew she would have to go fight Lanfear in the first place. The same reason she knew that Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve needed Thom in Tanchico before they ever left. Etc...

32

terez: 2005-10-28

I agree that the Eelfinn are most likely still in Mat's head in one way or another, but I also agree that the dice in Tear were the fateful dice. One thing that I have been wondering, though, is how the Eelfinn obtained the memories of the men that were given to Mat. I think I remember RJ saying in an interview that those men had been through the doorway, but weren't they all wetlanders? Hasn't the doorway been in Rhuidean since the first millineum of this Age? Aren't most of Mat's memories from the second millineum, or specifically between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years?

33

lurk: 2005-10-28

I´m stll not sure about the dice in Tear. Although the wording is similar to the wording in the latter books. In the latter books they are always mentioned several times before Mat does something related to his fate. And they are always mentioned to stop.

What happende in Tear though is that Mat used fireworks as a destructive device. It is in his fate to help Aludra make cannons so the dice could be linked to this

34

a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-28

Zorpisuttle, I'm very interested to know what do you think about a possibility that Eelfinns place the mental dice in Mat's head not only after Mat's visit to them, but also in Mat's life BEFORE he visited the Aelfinns? I mean that because the timing synchronization between the worlds of Finns and the Rand''s worlds is known to be really ... odd, and because *finns can read futures during the seance, placing the dice also in Mat's PAST wouldn't be so impossible. They search also for memories before the visitor's visit and they would also nead detection device there, right?

35

IkilledAsmodean: 2005-10-28

Not seeing the results of the dice, or having that mentionned heavily is very similar to the first book, and Rand channeling. He does it several tiems without us knowing he was doing it, or without it being mentioned, as his ability developed. Which is parellel to the dice in Tear. We didn't hear much until it developed further regarding either skill.

Anyone else not convinced?

36

terez: 2005-10-29

"I´m still not sure about the dice in Tear. Although the wording is similar to the wording in the latter books. In the latter books they are always mentioned several times before Mat does something related to his fate. And they are always mentioned to stop."

lurk, I really don't think this gives any evidence that the dice in Tear are different. It has already been pointed out above that the dice terminus is not always documented, and that every new ability aquired by our ta'veren develops is the same gradual fashion. It's good plot development to do so, and we like RJ for it.

It is in his fate to help Aludra make cannons so the dice could be linked to this""

It seems fairly obvious that the dice are connected to Mat's luck. His luck went off the hook as he was escaping Tar Valon. It started, in my opinion, with meeting Lanfear, Galad and Gawyn, Mat still weak from being Healed by the Amyrlin's Circle, and the Amyrlin's seal, the gambling at Southarbor, footpads, meeting up with Thom, and jumping on a ship for Tear, Gaebril and Tallanvor in Caemlyn, Comar in Tear, and on the way to the Stone, The Dice. He gambled some more in Tear, got in a barroom brawl with his cards, of course (only the dice love him), met the Aelfinn (at the same time as Rand and Moiraine), flipped a coin and went to Chaendar and then to Rhuidean, met the Eelfinn (at the same time Rand was in the Heart ter'angreal, and also at the same time Moiraine was in the rings. And Aviendha.) I suppose it's possible that the Eelfinn manipulated his dice in some way, but the dice were there to begin with.

"Zorpisuttle, I'm very interested to know what do you think about a possibility that Eelfinn place the mental dice in Mat's head not only after Mat's visit to them, but also in Mat's life BEFORE he visited the Aelfinn?"

dbf, I know you didn't ask me :), but although I think it's very possible technically - if it were true, what kind of role would the finns play? Too huge.

Anyone else not convinced? (IKA)

I'm convinced that the Eelfinn have some sort of hold on Mat, and that they would be spying on his life and everything around him through his eyes, or an eye, makes a lot of sense. I'm also convinced that The Dice led Mat to the finns, not the other way around.

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Callandor: 2005-10-30

**One thing that I have been wondering, though, is how the Eelfinn obtained the memories of the men that were given to Mat. I think I remember RJ saying in an interview that those men had been through the doorway, but weren't they all wetlanders? Hasn't the doorway been in Rhuidean since the first millineum of this Age? Aren't most of Mat's memories from the second millineum, or specifically between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years?**

Jordan said most of the men came through the Tower of Ghenjei.

**And they are always mentioned to stop.**

No, they're not. I specifically quoted this in the Battle of Cairhien, which no one doubts were the "fate dice", that they are not referenced to stop. So, what's your objection beyond dislike?

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Sevas Tra: 2005-10-30

We find out in tSR that the ToG can be accessed in the World of Dreams.

We know that anybody can enter the World of Dreams by chance. Also, anyone who does is not in tWoD to as great a degree as a Dreamwalker is.

Perhaps the memories Mat was given were from people who Dreamed themselves to the ToG (woke up later) and then never realized that the Finns were inside their minds.

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a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-31

***dbf, I know you didn't ask me :), but although I think it's very possible technically - if it were true, what kind of role would the finns play? Too huge. I'm convinced that the Eelfinn have some sort of hold on Mat, and that they would be spying on his life and everything around him through his eyes, or an eye, makes a lot of sense. I'm also convinced that The Dice led Mat to the finns, not the other way around.***

I asked Zorpisuttle, because it's his theory, and because I believe it would be of help to his theory against the problem with the earliest dice effects. But I'm also grad, you answer to me, Terez. :) No, I don't think that assuming *finns intervention in the past will make them allmighty. Any limitations could be in play here. Also suggested in this particular case is only a read-only "intervention" to a very specific group of threads (only to those who entered the *Finns realm). If dice are tracking device in the person's past, this will reduce their powers even more in sense that *finns would need some unknown mechanism to track person's past instead of just reading it en-block, and mechanisms usually have lots of limitations.

I don't think that we need assuming any synchronized link between *finns and Mat for them to see anything from Mat's future. We don't need such tracking device, because we have seen the Aelfinns able to read Mat's future in the very moment of Mat's first visit. They don't need to see through Mat's eye in the future, because they do it already when Mat is visiting them. They can do tricks with timeflow - it's a known fact and we don't need to be scared to assume that they have a different approach to timeflow. We can explain their tricks with memories and future in any way, but the simple fact is that they have better way to know people's future than the traditional spyware.

I personally prefer another explanation of Mat's mental dice - that they are part of his Shadar Logoth influenced luck (actually a resonance between both Evils that brought into Mat's possession "Dark One's own luck") - an idea I recently posted on the message board. But Zorpisuttle's theory is also to be considered as backup variant, but only if it copes in plausible manner with the dice appearances before the Eelfinns and even before the Aelfinns visit. Read-only intervention in the past is the solutiona I can think out about.

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lurk: 2005-10-31

~**And they are always mentioned to stop.**

No, they're not. I specifically quoted this in the Battle of Cairhien, which no one doubts were the "fate dice", that they are not referenced to stop. So, what's your objection beyond dislike? ~

Callandor I agree with your quotes. But they are two in comparison to about twenty or thirty where it is specifically mentioned that the dice stopped (dead) in his head. It is not a matter of dislike it is just something I want to point at specifically.

Maybe it is something developing gradually like perrins wolf abilities. Maybe it is something RJ developed later in the books to put more emphasis on the dice, I do not know.

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Callandor: 2005-11-01

**But they are two in comparison to about twenty or thirty where it is specifically mentioned that the dice stopped (dead) in his head. It is not a matter of dislike it is just something I want to point at specifically.**

Yeah, that's great that 20 or 30 mention stopping -- two specific times did not mention stopping. Hence, it's not always mentioned that the dice stop. It's important to establish that both are fate dice and one occurs before seeing the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, and the other after. Hence, the Finn aren't responsible for the dice.

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Bring Eben Back: 2005-11-01

I seem to rememeber a theory that was posted a while back regarding the dice as well. Didnt Lanfear use a ter'angreal taken from the White Tower that was carved in the shape of dice on Mat?

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Callandor: 2005-11-01

**Didnt Lanfear use a ter'angreal taken from the White Tower that was carved in the shape of dice on Mat?**

No. It was only speculated about. Jordan has confirmed that Lanfear played no part in Mat's luck at all -- she was just checking his health. No ter'angreal or anything.

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Tristin: 2005-11-02

no one knows why a terangreal like that would continue to affect him after channeling into it ceased or why she would do something to make Matt more lucky at all.

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IkilledAsmodean: 2005-11-02

It should also be noted that a lot of the time, we don't see how the dice start. So it's not as though we get a complete start to finish look at every particular fated situation. only some. There are those we do not see the beginning of, and those we do not see the end of, and probably those we do not even hear about.

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terez: 2005-11-05

“Jordan said most of the men came through the Tower of Ghenjei.” (Callandor)

Thanks. That clears it up.

“I personally prefer another explanation of Mat's mental dice - that they are part of his Shadar Logoth influenced luck (actually a resonance between both Evils that brought into Mat's possession "Dark One's own luck") - an idea I recently posted on the message board. But Zorpisuttle's theory is also to be considered as backup variant, but only if it copes in plausible manner with the dice appearances before the Eelfinns and even before the Aelfinns visit. Read-only intervention in the past is the solution I can think out about.” (aDBF)

I don’t know if this idea has been presented before, but it seems that Mat’s luck is a combination of his willingness to take chances in instances of long odds, and his ta’veren-ness. Could the onset of his luck, and then the dice, have started with his blowing of the Horn? Mat took a gamble when he blew the Horn, big time:

TITLE: The Great Hunt CHAPTER 47, “The Grave Is No Bar to My Call”

**“It has to be there at the Last Battle,” Mat said, licking his lips. “Nothing says it can’t be used before then.” He pulled the Horn free of its lashings and looked at them anxiously. “Nothing says it can’t.” ... Mat’s hand shook as he raised the Horn of Valere to his lips.**

The fact that Mat was licking his lips, and the fact that he repeated “nothing says it can’t,” as though trying to convince himself, shows that he wasn’t really sure. He probably thought it might not be able to be used again so soon, or perhaps he thought it would have some ill effect. Also, Ba’alzamon’s satisfaction in his presumption that Rand was now bound to the Horn, and Tuon’s comment about the urgency of Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne becoming even more urgent if he had blown the Horn, which she suspected, make it clear that Mat made a major choice in the Pattern when he blew it. The next time we see Mat after he blew the Horn, he’s pretty much unconscious from the taint of the dagger. As soon as he is Healed, the luck is a part of him – and, it develops very quickly. Perhaps the dagger only held his talent back. Rand and Perrin came into their talents in the Eye of the World, but Mat picked up the dagger, and its influence put a hold on his talent. It makes sense to me.

I am much fonder of the idea that Mat’s luck is his own ta’veren making than it being a by-product of the Shadow, or Shadar Logoth, or the Finns. I also put a little evidence for this on Anubis’ counter-theory which came out recently. I’m interested to know what you think, dbf. :) If you're still paying attention, that is.

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Bayle: 2005-11-10

Has anyone thought of the rolling of the dice as being the dark one's influence, or perhaps a dicing game between the creator and the dark one? The thought just came to me, similar to two god's playing chess with human pieces (or the AoL game where humans are used as "pawns"), and maybe this would give more credence to the term "Dark One's own luck."

RJ himself said in an interview, something along the lines of, "mat may have the dark one's own luck, and in a true sense perhaps he does" (totally paraphrased)

Also the old term "the dark one's eyes" being a roll of all ones came to mind. The dice, when they come up bad, causing things to happen in the Dark One's favor, when good, in favor of the Light...

So in essence, I don't think the Finn's placed the dice in Mat's head, I think it is a Talent perhaps, or something else, that has grown with time into what it is now. Had the "all one pips" roll been called "snake eyes" as it is irl, well that would be a whole different story :P

Oh yes, and perhaps "blinding" himself, however that plays out, will be the way to blind the dark one's eyes...

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El Bogarto: 2005-11-11

Bayle, I too found RJ's comment about Mat's luck to be thought provoking.

Mat's luck works best on random things - in other words, the more chaos there is, the luckier Mat gets.

The DO is sowing chaos as part of his master plan to break free.

I deduce an odd correlation: the more chaotic things get, the closer the DO gets to breaking free – and Mat gets luckier.

Perhaps his luck is the Pattern’s own attempt to incorporate the rising power of chaos for the good of the Age Lace, - a Ta’veren twisting the loose threads into something coherent.

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Darren: 2005-12-22

A completely invalid theory. I'm shocked you all rated it so high. The dice and what they symbolize are all chronicled in "The Dragon Reborn" a whole novel before he meets either the snakes or the foxes.

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timmooo: 2006-04-03

Jason Wolfbrother says that

Mat heard the dice in tDR before he went througgh the doorway, but their is a possibility that the finns can tell who will come through the door and could form the link from afar before the time. I do not remember exactly but i believe the dice got worse after he went thrpugh the doorway, after the link was secured.

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JakOShadows: 2006-04-05

Jason:

The only problem with that is that Mat is in a completely different world or reality from them, so that makes it a lot less likely. We know that they have some ability to read the pattern, but being able to pick someone out that is going to come through the doorway should require more direct touch on the pattern though. The forsaken have trouble tracking where Rand and Mat and Perrin will be going; and they are in the pattern and trying to track ta'veren. So all the current evidence in the book points the fact that its not likely.

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sogoloth: 2006-04-06

Considering that the dice mentioned in TDR are at a very critical time for Matt, and the description of how they are rolling "in his head" to me indicates that this is the beginning of his ability.

Also, Matt's ability has been growing. In KoD he has upgraded to multiple dice rolling in his head at the same time. So it seems his ability, like Perrins' wolfbrother and Rand's channeling, is developing and getting stronger. While this is not in-and-of itself evidense one way or the other, I do believe it adds weight to the idea that this is an inborn ability that Matt has as opposed to a gift from the *finn.

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BrainFireBob: 2006-07-25

There are also quotes of times- like when they were in Tear and he looked at Guenna's house in a flash of lightning- that he said his head felt like it was going to "explode." I think these incidents- which occur throughout tDR and early in tSR- are also incidents of his talent- the sound is too loud for him to recognize it as dice