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n Search of Moiraine: A Bargain
by Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17 | 5.59 out of 10 (17 votes)
Recent Categories: Mat, Thom, Moiraine, and the Tower of Ghenjei
With this in mind, as I was replying to a theory that was posted, the thought came to me, why would the Finns hold Moiraine, if she is being held, for so long? Why wouldn’t they have made clothing from her skin and sent her back to the soul pool long ago? While I agree, it is possible that Moiraine is on the run, somehow holding the Finns at bay, I doubt that conclusion, because we know that Lanfear was held by both the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn:
TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
"Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger."
Having gone through at the same time, the doorway having melted, struggling with the OP, Lanfear seemingly having gone through some form of power decrease as her new incarnation Cyndane, Lan’s bond having been passed and he experiencing some form of illness typically associated with bonds that are cut, and Moiraine’s inability to free herself, suggest to me that Moiraine lost the use of the OP and is being held by the Finns.
I know this is a theory based on a theory, but I am going to proceed with it freely admitting that fallacy.
Theory: I believe Moiraine is being held by the Finns, having lost the ability channel, yet she hasn't been killed because the Finns have been inside of Mat’s and Moiraine’s head, have read their futures, and they know that Mat will return to their lands. Not only that, they know if they keep Moiraine, they will be able to bargain for something they want that Mat has or that Mat will bring.
Development:
I am sure you will ask the first question that comes to Mind. Why would they care if Mat returned? I believe there are four potential reasons.
Reason 1: Mat is Ta'veren
The Finns hadn't tasted the sweetness of a ta'veren for a long time, a very long time.
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway
"He is another," the woman on the left whispered. "The strain. The strain." "The savor," the man said. "It has been long." "There is yet time," the other woman told them. She sounded calm-they all did-but there was a sharpness to her voice when she turned back to Mat. "Ask. Ask."
Mat is another one, the strain, the savor, they tell him to keep asking, they want him to stay, but they know he must leave because two at one time are one too many. The Finns experience something orgasmic in breathing in the essence of a Ta’veren, someone around whom the Pattern is formed. Ta'veren contact, reading the thread of such an individual is a drug, and these creatures are addicted. In fact, it is possible that they have led him down a path that would lead him back to them. Consider how Mat was guided during his first encounter with the Finns
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway
"If you do not go to Rhuidean," the woman on the right said, "you will die." The bell tolled again, louder this time; Mat felt its tremor through his boots. The looks the three shared were plainly anxious. He opened his mouth, but they were only concerned with each other.â€
They led him by the nose to Eelfinn, Mat’s run in with that second doorway was not chance. These are devious creatures that exert their own form of control on the Pattern. What better way to change the course of the Pattern than to influence a Ta’veren or two? By reading Moiraine’s thread, they know that Mat will be willing to come back and bargain for her. No skin off their backs, but maybe a little bit off Mat’s, if the Eelfinn are lucky.
This leads to the second reason they would keep Moiraine alive.
Reason 2: Revenge, They Are Evil, Remember?
I believe it is likely that the Finns see a variety of futures and send you towards whichever future they desire, not necessarily the one that must happen or that the Pattern wants shaped or that the Wheel intended. And it is possible that Ta’veren can have an effect on the Finns too, which may be why Mat lived through his experience with the hanging. If keeping Moiraine alive, they believe they can bargain for Mat’s life, I believe they would do it. They know they can get their hands on a Ta’veren that escaped them because his Ta’veren abilities led him to ask for leavetaking, but not his life, which they gave to him. In many ways, they might consider they gave him a life, because they knew they would get it back, soon.
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
"Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings. It does not matter so long as you stay away from the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be. They are not to be trusted, archer.â€
Birgitte believes they shouldn't be trusted, and for good reason. We know that they have made clothes out of the flesh of the individuals who make bad bargains. We have reason to believe they kill many people, and the Eelfinn probably are not accustomed to losing the game, ever. They want revenge, they want the life they gave back, and Moiraine is their ticket to the Gambler, the guy who always wins.
Reason 3: New Treaties
A Ter’angreal doorway has been destroyed. We do not know all of the terms of the Treaty that was signed with the Finns, but I think it is possible when a doorway is destroyed, the treaty is null and void, at least with the Eelfinn. Obviously, the Finns created the treaty because it was beneficial to them, so they could be anxious to create another treaty. I think Mat could be directly related to the creation of a new treaty with the Finns.
Reason 4: The Third Person
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: A Village In Shiota
“If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have see all of us live and die as captives.â€
Surely, the Finns know Mat is coming, and yet Moiraine lives and has seen all of them leaving alive, although I doubt this will be the case. We have reason to believe three of them will leave, but the fourth, the Third man Mat will bring, I believe will not leave. As with Mat, it is possible they know that Mat will bring this individual, someone Moiraine does not know, could it be Olver, and I think that this individual will become captive because of his value to the Finns.
Conclusion:
Moiraine’s quote means many things. First, I think her quote can be interpreted to suggest she is captive, definitively. And if all three do not come, she will die in captivity, as she might if all three do show up. Moiraine’s life is important to Rand’s success, according to Min, so we know that her thread, it’s future, known to the Finns, is valuable, yet they have not killed her, knowing Mat will be returning to rescue her. In my estimation, this suggests that Mat and his party is more valuable to them than Moiraine for the reasons above. I know I have not fleshed this out completely, but I think it is detailed enough for us to discuss possibilities.
By the way, I would appreciate additional suggestions as to the value Mat and his party offer to the Finns, if you agree with my general premise. If not, let's hear it.
Comments
therobotbadger: 2005-10-17
I don't know that the 'Finn would simply decide to hold Moiraine on their own. I mean, they seemed pretty eager to kill Mat no matter what his bargain, and he's a delicious ta'veren. He's likely worth something more to them than Moiraine, her value possibly being merely as a tether to bring Mat back.
My idea about the situation is that Moiraine, possessing her foresight from the rings, bargained to stay with the Eelfinn, knowing it was necessary to the Pattern.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17
Right, that was my point, the Finns are holding Moiraine, not killing her, because they want Mat. While Moiraine possessed such information, I am quite sure the Finns already knew anything Moiraine knew.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-17
I have a couple of points. First, about the treaty and making a new one, I can't say I agree, but if it does happen, will Mat's ta'veren-ness affect things? It doesn't seem like it based on past dealings with the Finns, but Mat can have that effect, like with the Sea Folk, and the Finns are theoretically part of the Pattern, so that may not be such a good idea for the Finns after all.
Secondly, I think the whole idea that the Finns are "guiding" Mat is a little too much like omnipotence. I mean, saying that the Finns guide Mat is like saying the Finns ARE the Pattern/Wheel of Time, which HAS to be the overriding and ultimate force (interesting idea there... do the Finns act as the Fates in Greek Mythology and tend to the Pattern? Expect more on that). Therefore, the Aelfinns probably wouldn't direct Mat to the Eelfinns, knowing Mat wouldn't make a bargain and would escape. And if theyre working together, wouldn't the Eelfinn know that Mat would survive their punishment? I'm confusing myself, but hopefully I got the point across.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17
The treaty idea is just speculation associated with this theory. I think it is an interesting twist, but I certainly have no support for it.
However, regarding the guidance, I disagree. The Finns are evil. They are intelligent creatures with the ability to read the threads of the future. They have certain abilities that allow them to grant questions and wishes. Birgitte warns to stay away from them. I can't imagine how you can say the Aelfinn didn't lead Mat right to the Eelfinn on purpose. The fact that Mat escaped the Eelfinn, as I mentioned, I believe has much to do with his status as Ta'veren. There are many possible futures, so the Eelfinn knew it was possible that he would escape. But they like to play the game and they are held to the rules of the game. I can't imagine that they wouldn't want another chance to bargain with him, especially when they have something that he wants, something that is key to the success of the Light.
Hammar: 2005-10-17
Wow, a lot to think about. I thought that I had the entire situation figured out after KoD, however, you opened the doors wide open.
Moiraine is a captive, definitely in the Tower of Ghenjei. After reading KoD it would be impossible to deny that. Her losing her ability to channel also answers the question of Lan losing the bond. Her letter to Thom says that Thom, Mat, and only one other must go. Noal hints that he would like to go and while Thom and Mat dont say anything, I think it is almost implied that he will be the third. I think everything is based on who the third person that goes will be. I believe it will be either a choice between Noal and Olver.
I believe Noal to be Jain Fairstrider, and visiting the Tower would be another adventure for him. Also, I could believe him dying at the Tower due to his dark and shady past.
You would have to be blind, however, to not take Olver into consideration, because of his obsession with the Snakes and Foxes game. Also, I believe Olver to be Gaidal Cain reborn, so it would just seem fitting.
Conclusion:
I haven't really disputed anything you said except I believe that Moiraine will be successfully freed from capture from the Finns. Rand needs her and I can't wait to see Rand's reaction to a meeting with her. We know Thom will live to marry her, and Mat will live also. I think that the third person who comes (whether it be Noal or Olver) will make the essential new bargain with the Finns, which doesn't necessarily mean their death. (remember the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn are the same species but have different characteristics)
For instance, and this is a bit out there, Olver could be revealed that he is, in fact, Gaidal Cain reborn, and the bargain he would have to make would be to never be re-born in the pattern, and this being his last lifetime. Noal, Jain Fairstrider, would have to give up all his memories of all the lands he has visited and seen to the Finns, who we all know are suckers for sight and knowledge.
reTaardad: 2005-10-17
"I believe Moiraine is being held by the Finns, having lost the ability channel, yet she hasn't been killed because the Finns have been inside of Mat’s and Moiraine’s head, have read their futures, and they know that Mat will return to their lands. Not only that, they know if they keep Moiraine, they will be able to bargain for something they want that Mat has or that Mat will bring."
Maybe this is the point at which Mat gives up "half the light of the world?"
I really really like the last three reasons, Tamyrlin, especially Reason 4. The Foxes seem to be sticklers for bargaining, so exchanging one Randlander for Moiraine seems about right. But what if Mat and Thom are willing to exchange a person, whom they believe fitting, that the Finns don't find acceptable (remember Moiraine's warnings considering questions in The Shadow Rising)? Even so, I don't believe that the connection will be resumed between Randland and the Foxes. Whether this would disrupt the connection to the Snakes, I can't say.
As to your request, Mat has lived through bargaining with the Finns, so I think that's value enough to the Finn rescue party.
I'm thinking that Olver is going to find a way to beat the Finns without cheating, accompany them there, and RJ is finally going to show us how to play Snakes and Foxes by way of the characters actions in Finnland, then they'll all live happily ever after...without Olver, hopefully.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17
Thanks, Hammar, I had forgotten about Noal. Jain Farstrider, would he bargain himself, I can't see Mat being able to stop him? He seems a bit distraught regarding his past, it is an interesting question. I think Moiraine says "Man", so maybe there is a greater likelihood that it will be Jain, since Mat would really fight bringing Olver. I just had a fun thought. What if it isn't three? That is what Moiraine saw, but what if Olver sneaks in with them? That seems like Olver's style...hmm, I would love to see that twist.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-17
While I can agree that the *'finns might want to savour more people showing up, especially ta'veren, there is another possibility. The *'finns could be on another world, but it's still in the pattern. If the DO gets loose they might be as effected by the DO getting loose as anyone else. Actually, if you consider the reaction between the Taint and Shaidar Logoth, they might be worse off. The Shadow is just as likely to turn on anything that threatens its supremecy. If Mat hadn't gone to Rhuidean, he would have died and the fate of the world would have been tossed to the wind.
In the very quote you use Birgitte says that they are not evil, only alien. They're in the same category as the Seanchan. They appear evil to everyone on this side of the Areyth Ocean, but are they evil? Slavey isn't the most savoury of practices, but they think it's for the best. They think they're actually doing what's best for the world. Tuon's own thoughts indicate that she hopes to bring Setalle Anan "around" to the idea da'covale are necessary. The *'finns might look strange and have weird practices, but I don't think they're evil per se. It is true that they shouldn't be trusted, I don't really think revenge is a primary motivator for them.
Your next reason might be possible, but from Moiraine's letter she comments that in some of her visions she sees them all living and dying as captives. If they're all captives then how are new treaties going to be created? Further, I'm not sure where this is from, but hasn't there been thoughts about other doorways existing? The loss of this doorway might not mean much to them. In addition if they can access this world through the Tower of Ghenji then it might not be detrimental to them at all. The doorways, which were probably made by Aes Sedai since they are ter'angreal were probably just for convience, rather then as the sole portals to their realm.
As you said, Olver is a candidate, however Moiraine says that she doesn't know who the 3rd is. Olver showed up before Moiraine went through the doorway, so it's a pretty good possibility that she would either know him or at least know of him. Especially with her Eyes and Ears. Rumour of an ugly child would have reached her and she probably could have recognized him from his description. It's more likely that it's someone that had to have appeared after the events at the docks at Cairhien. The candidate that I'd wager on would be the one that volunteered to go, Noal. He's seen more than most men ever could and would probably be a prize that the *'finns would savour. He seems to have some issues to work out and the *'finns might be able to help him with that, especially if he was lying about being Jain's 'cousin' and we know about Jain leaving his wife and child.
It's possible that Moiraine offered to stay there with the *'finns as a part of her bargain, remember she'd give anything for the Dragon Reborn to succeed. If this was the one chance for this to happen, I don't doubt that she'd try. What she got in return, well, we obviously don't know, but the usual has been suggested, more strength in the power, knowledge, etc. If this is the case then it's possible that Noal, might well offer to Moiraine's place in an exchange. Moiraine might be vaulable, but Jain Farstrider, assuming that it is him, would also be one hell of a prize.
...of course the other possibility is that Mat & Thom are gonna cheat like mad, music, fire, iron, the whole works to get them out of there. I can see that happening as well. I also think it'd be more fun.
Hammar: 2005-10-17
Thanks for the praise, what with me being only a week old to Theoryland, I am very excited haha.
Anyway back to the good stuff, I think Thom, Mat, and Noal will most likely be the ones to go. However, there is no way to win at the game Snakes and Foxes right? Unless you cheat...Olver hasn't figured out that you lose every time, so perhaps he will find out a way to cheat and beat the Foxes (Finns) at their own game? That sounds like something RJ would come up with.
One interesting and wacky note, you aren't allowed to bring any fire, iron, or instruments of music into the Finnworld, but can't Thom be considered an instrument of music?
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-17
Thom could be a music instrument. Mat's got Aludra's matches. Don't really know what they're gonna do for iron, but a few ideas have been tossed around.
Quite a few of them are listed here if you feel like doing some reading.
Theory
Aan-allein: 2005-10-17
Your third reason opens up some interesting possibilities.
If the treaty was broken (I'm assuming the treaty kept them in their land and bound them to the bargaining table, so to speak) when the door melted, perhaps they could now affect events in randland more directly (Asmodean.)
So maybe Lanfear got her three wishes
1.Kill bastard Asmodean cause he knows she said she wanted to usurp the DO.
2.She wants answers from the other finns.
3.She wants a quick clean death(this is assuming that she and Moiraine were stilled/burned out when the doorway melted...death would benefit her.)
Callandor: 2005-10-18
**These are devious creatures that exert their own form of control on the Pattern. What better way to change the course of the Pattern than to influence a Ta’veren or two?**
Question you have to ask though is, is it really a change to the Pattern? Or are the Aelfinn telling the absolute truth that Mat was fated to go to Rhuidean, and simply couldn't be any happier about it?
Then if you so wish, you can simply say that the Finn are holding Mat, because he is fated to return anyway, and they know this.
**As with Mat, it is possible they know that Mat will bring this individual, someone Moiraine does not know, could it be Olver, and I think that this individual will become captive because of his value to the Finns.**
Olver is hardly a man though; most likely it's Noal.
** I can't imagine how you can say the Aelfinn didn't lead Mat right to the Eelfinn on purpose.**
They led him there, yes, but only because he was fated to go there. I wouldn't call that guiding -- more of saying, "Hey, you need to go here and you will, so get going."
**Also, I believe Olver to be Gaidal Cain reborn, so it would just seem fitting.**
He's not. Olver is Olver. RJ has said it explicitly.
**(remember the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn are the same species but have different characteristics**
I wouldn't say that. They are physically different, so not quite the same species to me.
**As you said, Olver is a candidate, however Moiraine says that she doesn't know who the 3rd is. Olver showed up before Moiraine went through the doorway, so it's a pretty good possibility that she would either know him or at least know of him.**
No, he didn't. Olver was picked up in Maerone, in Lord of Chaos -- after Moiraine went through the doorway. But, Moiraine does specify a "man", and Olver is hardly that.
**One interesting and wacky note, you aren't allowed to bring any fire, iron, or instruments of music into the Finnworld, but can't Thom be considered an instrument of music?**
Yes, technically, since High Chant is similar to singing as he says.
UberAshaman: 2005-10-18
I like the idea that Olver will follow Thom, Mat and Noal into the Tower because well, I've always thought that 4 of them would save Moiraine because of the 4 ways to cheat aginst the Finns, and that each person would bring one 'cheat' into the party.
Also, I've always thought that the Finns aren't completely evil. I think they kept Moiraine because she was vital to the fight against the Dark One and it was maybe part of a bargain she made or something like that. Maybe. I've thought this (the part about them not being evil) because we all know how Aridhol fell into darkness etc. Well, in the story told by Moiraine(?) she says that while Shadar Logoth/Aridhol is now the way it is and it was like that when people lived there, they still fought the Shadow and were against the Shadow. It's just that the way that they fought was too radical and hard and 'evil' that they eventually were tainted etc. and fell into decay, destruction and so-on.
So Aridhol/SH fought the Shadow but were still considered evil by everyone else because of how they fought the Shadow. So they weren't evil like the Shadow, but were so different than the rest of humanity that they were evil. Sounds like the story Biritte gave Perrin. => The Shadow Rising, Ch. 28, The Tower of Ghenjei - "They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be."
On a sidenote, where Aridhol fought the Shadow continually, they became so hard that they became tainted. This kinda mirrors Rand and him being so hard, and then becoming tainted at Shadar Logoth by Moridin and that someone said (maybe Cadsuane) that his victory in the Last Battle would be as bad as his defeat. The situation just seems similar to how Aridhol fell.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-18
I guess there is a point to doing a reread every now and then. Ok, so Olver isn't known to Moiraine. For some reason I thought he was picked up on the way back from the Waste.
Meh. Anyway from what Moiraine said having Olver come along would be bad.
"Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out."
Aelfinn: 2005-10-18
**So Aridhol/SH fought the Shadow but were still considered evil by everyone else because of how they fought the Shadow. So they weren't evil like the Shadow, but were so different than the rest of humanity that they were evil. Sounds like the story Biritte gave Perrin. => The Shadow Rising, Ch. 28, The Tower of Ghenjei - "They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be."
**On a sidenote, where Aridhol fought the Shadow continually, they became so hard that they became tainted. This kinda mirrors Rand and him being so hard, and then becoming tainted at Shadar Logoth by Moridin and that someone said (maybe Cadsuane) that his victory in the Last Battle would be as bad as his defeat. The situation just seems similar to how Aridhol fell. **
No, Aridhol was evil. There are different kinds of evil, Shadow and Shadar Logoth being two. The Finns are different, but not evil, thanks to someone for their example of Seanchan; Shadar Logoth was different AND evil.
drz1649: 2005-10-18
it's a good theory, but you might debate the wisdom of taking Noal to the 'Finns. remember the prohibitions against asking questions touching the Shadow, and speculation of what would happen to the Forsaken if they went through either doorway (Lanfear obviously didn't get the best treatment).
so note the mystery around Noal's past. (this is assuming he is Jain, which seems pretty obvious to me. it's would be pretty anti-climactic if he turned out to just be his cousin. it'd be like Moridin actually being Ishy's long lost little brother). there's his disappearance in the vicinity of Shayol Ghul - his last known whereabouts - Ishy's cryptic comments about painting him as a fool (I forget where, somewhere in book 1 or 2) and his apparently being tortured in the past - constant references to his broken, yet nimble, hands. Noal/Jain could conceivably be tainted or perhaps even bear the mark of the Shadow. something about him definitely isn't on the level. and the 'Finns aren't the most tolerant bunch at the best of times.
I always thought the three would be Thom (music), Mat (Aludra's fire) & Lan (iron, plus he's MOIRAINE'S FREAKING WARDER). but it seems like Lan isn't going to be available so Jain'll be an interesting substitute. it is hard to see where else his story could be going, unless it's related to Isam/Slayer or Lan somehow (he captured Isam's mothers co-conspirator, if I remember correctly).
as for Olver, I think he'll figure out how to cheat in the game, but won't actually get to go into the Tower.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-18
A few points. First, we have no reason to believe that the Finns have to aim those who come through the doorway, along the path that the Pattern would choose for that individual. We know there are a myriad of potential futures, as Moiraine sees of her own life, and the Aelfinn created Mat's fate by telling him he had to go to Rhuidean. We have no reason to believe them, and we have no reason to believe they have Mat's best interests in mind. In fact, it would seem the Eelfinn love to play the game and to take advantage of those who play with them.
Second, I disagree with the assertion that the Finns are evil like the Seanchan are evil. Birgitte is specific in her warning. They are so different from mankind, that we might as well consider them evil, because of how dangerous they are to mankind. They are alien. Their beliefs are alien. Their powers are alien. The Seanchan are merely another culture, and the comparison ends there. I think those who have replied along this line are going a bit too easy on a race of beings that make skin out of humans.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-18
The Finns are evil because they, like the Dark One, are totally removed from humanity. They do not care about humankind, and their indifference is construed as evil. Being detached from the Pattern, which is good, is the equivalent about being evil. Therefore, they are evil because they are so far removed from humans and human interests, but not in the way the DO is, because the DO is interested in dominating and destroying the world, while the Finns are dispassionate observers working for their own ends, which aren't those of the Pattern
Balinor: 2005-10-18
An interesting theory, but perhaps a bit complicated. One question we should all probably be asking though, is how did Moiraine know she would end up in the Tower of Ghenjei? I believe that she received this knowledge by going throught the three rings (arches?) ter'angreal in Rhuidean. I believe one of the Wise Ones described it as a woman seeing almost all of the different paths her life could take (similar to the one in the White Tower, but different). That's how she knows that Mat and Thom should bring just one more person with them; she's seen all of the possible futures, and only one has a chance of them all surviving. If Moiraine saw someone give themselves up to the Finns for everyone else to escape, I think she might have mentioned it in the letter; she's got a surprisingly honest streak, although she does conceal things from time to time.
But in her letter, I think she was telling the whole truth. Now, as to why she's being held by the Finns, couldn't Moiraine have arranged to stay with them? Moiraine seems to have surprising knowledge of the Finns, and she's seen this outcome of herself being held by them from going through the doorway ter'angreal. Why wouldn't she know that they grant gifts (I hate to call them wishes; seems too D&D-ish)
Moiraine is also very clever; so why wouldn't she ask the Finns to stay in Finnland as one of her gifts? This could have upset the Finns, but they have to agree, so they hold her as a captive. Why would Moiraine do this? Could be several reasons; she's seen possible futures, perhaps she knows that if the Shadow believes she is dead, then she later returns right before the last battle, then maybe the Dark is off balance, and the Light has a better chance. There have also been attempts on her life before (the Draghkar in the Great Hunt), so maybe it's safer for her to stay in Finnland for the time being. Maybe Mat will get another gift or piece of knowledge from the Finns that will turn the tide during the last battle, but only if he goes to save Moiraine...
As to who goes with Mat and Thom, I think it's pretty clear that the characters have decided it will be Noal. I believe that Noal speaks up after Mat has explained about the memories in his head that he got from the Finns. Perhaps some of Noal's memories of his life as Jain Farstrider were lost when he became of captive of Ishamael in the Blight. He may want to go, thinking that the Finns can restore some of his memories (or perhaps he believes that they can restore his wife to him). Since the Finns have a problem with questions that touch on the Shadow, perhaps having Noal with them will give Mat and Thom an edge will in Finnland? If the Finns can't give Noal what he wants because it touches on the Shadow, then they may be forced to let everyone leave.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-18
Balinor, why would you presume Moiraine wanted to be held? We know she sacrificed herself, her bond, and being Rand's counselor, to save him. Moiraine worked so hard to guide Rand; to knowingly give it up, when she could request to leave, doesn't make any plot sense.
Also, we know the Eelfinn hold individuals and then kill them. Why would we presume in this instance that Moiraine wants to be there, and that the Finns don't want her? Especially considering the fact that we know in many futures Moiraine sees, all of them die in captivity.
Finally, Moiraine tells Thom that she isn't telling him everything. She isn't. She gave him enough information to bring three people in. She didn't tell him how she came to be held by the Finns. She didn't explain why Mat had to come with. Moiraine say her potential futures. She knew she would be held by the Finns, and she knew that only the future where Mat learns of the letter on his own time, is there a chance for her to survive. So, she knowingly knocks Lanfear through the door, because she believed, even though the Finn would hold her, she would have a slight chance of living.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-18
Tam, that's just my point. The *'finns are removed from humanity, just the the Seanchan are removed from Western culture. It's merely the scale that's different. The Seanchan are a different culture, but they're still alien. The only difference is order of magnitudes.
As for why Moiraine would choose to be held, well, Min has foreseen that she still has a role to play. If Moiraine knew that she still has something to do, she would give up her freedom for a chance to fulfill her role.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-18
This idea, SBX, makes no sense to me. Why didn't Moiraine ask for leavetaking and her life, if you believe she got her three wishes? If the Finns know what will happen without her, why don't they just let her go at the right time. Forget Mat coming to rescue her with Thom. It seems a bit unnecessary, if the Finns are so concerned about the DO not getting released.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-18
From a Chat with Tamyrlin:
tamyrlin:: if they enjoy killing, which seems obvious, then them not killing her suggest they value her.
ShadowbaneX:: yes, but they might just value the sense of the person, their experiences, etc. They've already had a go at Mat. Why would they want him back?
tamyrlin:: of Moiraine, yet kill Lanfear?
tamyrlin:: Moiraine's sense compared to Mat's sense?
ShadowbaneX:: but they've already got him. Why would they want him back?
tamyrlin:: you think they are keeping Moiraine alive because of her sense, and that is all?
ShadowbaneX:: I think they're keeping her alive because that's part of their bargain.
tamyrlin:: Mat doesn't understand exactly what is happening. his impressions are impressions no more
tamyrlin:: nope, can't be
ShadowbaneX:: why not?
tamyrlin:: so you think Moiraine has seen her death...by age, in finnland?
ShadowbaneX:: I think she's seen alot in her trip in Rhuidean, otherwise her letter to Thom makes no sense. She's seen life and death.
tamyrlin:: if they know Mat is coming back, you don't think Moiraine holds some value to that connection, since they know he is coming back for her?
ShadowbaneX:: why would they care? They've read him. If the rest of the ideas are right, perhaps they spared Mat (sorta) and accepting Moiraine as a chance for Noal?
tamyrlin:: read him?
ShadowbaneX:: yup
tamyrlin:: it is in the reading that is the drug. that is like saying, "well, they already smoked some weed". why would they want more?
tamyrlin:: They almost allowed their buildings to come apart, just to savor the sensation of Mat and you don't think they would want him back?
ShadowbaneX:: because they have very good memory. There are people that go in and leave and yet there were still able to give those memories to Mat. Or what's more if Mat's right, they keep on reading the person after they leave. They'll still have all of that.
tamyrlin:: it isn't the memory it is the sensation
ShadowbaneX:: well Mat & Rand together.
tamyrlin:: they didn't want him to leave
tamyrlin:: no - that brought their kingdom down they don't want both at the same time
tamyrlin:: but they were willing to sacrifice it a bit longer to sense him
tamyrlin:: if it was simply the memories and that was it we wouldn't have witnessed that part
tamyrlin:: if Mat was there on his own, they wouldn't have rushed him out and why do you think the Finns are beholden to doing what the Pattern wants?
ShadowbaneX:: because it's the universe. If it goes so do they. There's also the possibility of anominity between the Shadow and the *'finns.
tamyrlin:: You imagine they care like a human would care? they look out for themselves just like everyone else
ShadowbaneX:: yes, they do. And if the DO gets out and he comes looking to wipe them out, they might care about that.
tamyrlin:: the Pattern is responsible for shaping itself, not the other way around
tamyrlin:: do you really believe they are afraid they will change the course of the world as to do something the Wheel couldn't correct?
tamyrlin:: I think Mat's ta'vereness is what got him out of there in the first place
ShadowbaneX:: not afraid, just know that they have their role to play, just as everyone else does
tamyrlin:: ? know they have a role? no one else acts like that
tamyrlin:: you are telling me, they gave Mat the best advice they could? and hanging Mat was part of their role?
ShadowbaneX:: if they didn't give Mat his memories or let him live, then the Light side fails, the DO gets free and then the DO comes looking for them.
tamyrlin:: so they really don't like to kill humans, and wouldn't have liked a chance to skin Mat? according to? the Finns?
ShadowbaneX:: they might like doing that, but it he has something else to do...
tamyrlin:: are they the Wheel of not? you are suggesting their are a corrective tool?
ShadowbaneX:: I think they have a part to play, just as everyone else does.
tamyrlin:: that doesn't make sense. of course, everyone has a thread, that doens't have anything to do with the Finns looking out for themselves
tamyrlin:: killing people, skinning them, holding them, and tricking them. you treat them like they are benign characters
ShadowbaneX:: they're alien. The kill those that they can. If Mat didn't have something else to do that holds part of the universe in the balance, they might well have flayed him and worn him around as a suit.
tamyrlin:: so if Mat hadn't asked for leavetaking, you don't think they would have held him until he died?
ShadowbaneX:: not benign, just different, yet still with something to do. If they had done something irreperable to Mat, and the Light would have lost because of it, that's not good for them. The DO breaks everything and they go away.
tamyrlin:: they are not responsible for weaving, you are not accepting that part
ShadowbaneX:: They're looking out for themselves.
tamyrlin:: no - the Wheel wouldn't have let them. it is the Wheel, the Pattern, not the Finns. the Finns might have tried. the Wheel foiled their attempt.
ShadowbaneX:: did Mat ask for the leave taking or did the Wheel make him ask?
tamyrlin:: his Ta'vereness led him to ask for leavetaking
ShadowbaneX:: right, so there's the Wheel's influence. He couldn't have stayed behind.
tamyrlin:: but, if he hadn't the Wheel would have figured out another way to get him out of finnland
tamyrlin:: I agree, but that isn't the Finns part. it is the Wheel's. the Finns aren't looking out for the Wheel
ShadowbaneX:: they're looking out for themselves, that's a given, but sometimes the Wheel and their own course are going in the same direction.
tamyrlin:: sure - but not in a human way, they are devious
tamyrlin:: they might see a common thread, but they are still going to get out of it what they can
ShadowbaneX:: yup. Which in this case are Mat's memories, Moiraine's, Lanfear's, Noal's, etc, that's quite a bit., especially since they hadn't had anything else for decades, if not centuries.
tamyrlin:: why didn't they just let Moiraine leave, if she was key just like Mat to the Light winning? the Light can't win without Moiraine
ShadowbaneX:: this is where Moiraine's vision's come into play. It could be that she had to be apart for a time.
ShadowbaneX:: as in why Thom had to wait for Mat to ask. If she was out too soon, it could have lead to disaster.
tamyrlin:: she says nothing like that. she doesn't say anything about the timing of her getting out
ShadowbaneX:: Moiraine is at the top of Rand's list. Knowing that she's alive might alter him before the right time.
tamyrlin:: So, why Mat then?They should just let her go at the right time
ShadowbaneX:: only that it has to be done when Mat asks. When Mat asks is the right time. She might not know weeks, days or years, only when Mat asks.
tamyrlin:: Since they know what is at stake. they can read her thread. they know, screw mat knowing
ShadowbaneX:: because Mat has to do it. It's the journey of when. Each step is just as important as the last one. A must lead to B, then to C, D, E, etc. If you go right from A to E without the steps in between, you lose.
tamyrlin:: Or, the Finns want Mat to come back in either with himself or somebody else
ShadowbaneX:: I like my idea better
tamyrlin:: lol, of course you do
ShadowbaneX:: my explaination makes more sense to me. I've been told time and again that my mind works differently than others. A chance to nab Mat makes sense for you. For me that's too small. Too little gain. I see it as a dance, or perhaps an equation. You start somewhere and you need to do a set series of equations or steps, learning and progressing as you go. If you skip a step, everything is a mess and nothing makes sense. It's only by following the correct steps that everything falls into place and the proper result is yielded.
tamyrlin:: I don't agree. the Pattern doesn't work that way. The Wheel has Heroes because the Pattern doesn't work that way. one person cannot stop it. the Wheel knows what will happen. knows how to plan ahead for contingencies when things don't happen in the order
ShadowbaneX:: but what if Moiraine staying with the Finns and Mat releasing her are the contingencies?
tamyrlin:: could be, but Mat being a contingency suggests to me that the Finns want something.
Jalwin Moerad: 2005-10-18
Tamyrlin, you make an interesting point when you suggest that the Aelfinn might guide people along certain paths in the pattern, in particular Mat's. That, in turn, raises an interesting implication: if Moiraine went to the Aelfinn, got 3 answers, and then saw completely different answers to her questions after having gone through the Rhuidean rings, how would the Aelfinn respond? I doubt she had three questions that could also be answered by the rings, but the possibility for one or two exists. Perhaps the Eelfinn, at the Aelfinn's behest, wish to keep her because she has this outside perspective on the future, or even that she can reveal the truth of their machinations.
On your point about the Eelfinn and the Aelfinn being evil, however, I completely disagree. The books suggest that the first links between Randland and the Finn world were made in the Age of Legends. If the Finns were evil, don't you think the Aes Sedai in the AOL would have noticed something? If there was no violence in the AoL society, finding a people who made clothes from human skin an were pure evil would probably have been a shock to the Aes Sedai. Can you imagine them keeping that doorway open after that? No, so unless they changed for the worse, they aren't pure evil.
Of course, the idea that they changed for the worse brings up the idea of possible taint on the Finns themselves. Who knows how the shadow works; if the Ways could become tainted, why not the home of the Finns, which was also made (in Randland, anyway) with the power?
BURN: 2005-10-18
As Mat is primarily based on Oden, I think it is a fairly safe bet that the tradeoff he makes in the bargain with the Finn is an eye. "half the light of the world to save the world" could refer to saving Moiraine. Min did have a vision that indicated Rand would fail without a woman "that was dead". Mat's first encounter with the Finns followed Norse myth almost chapter and verse. I don't see why his second would be any different. Thoughts?
Callandor: 2005-10-18
**I always thought the three would be Thom (music), Mat (Aludra's fire) & Lan (iron, plus he's MOIRAINE'S FREAKING WARDER)**
Well, he isn't Moiraine's Warder anymore ;) Plus, it's a man Moiraine didn't knoew, so he's clearly out.
**We know there are a myriad of potential futures, as Moiraine sees of her own life, and the Aelfinn created Mat's fate by telling him he had to go to Rhuidean. We have no reason to believe them, and we have no reason to believe they have Mat's best interests in mind.**
But, Tam, what is a major difference between Mat and Moiraine? (Yeah, sex, channeling, height, but think better ;)). Mat is a ta'veren. His future has less choices to make. It's hard to say that they didn't have his best intentions at hand, when they knew he was destined to do these certain things; after all, they told him them.
Plus, the way Mat couldn't even leave Rand's side or even speak about leaving -- I mean what else is going to happen? He was going to follow Rand, because the Pattern was going to force him to do it or he was going to do it. Following Rand took him to Rhuidean.
I don't see that as any guiding, unless you wish to say it was the Pattern doing it, and not the Aelfinn.
**One question we should all probably be asking though, is how did Moiraine know she would end up in the Tower of Ghenjei? I believe that she received this knowledge by going throught the three rings (arches?) ter'angreal in Rhuidean.**
Yes, that is the source. That is how she saw all the results of Thom taking himself, him and Mat, him, Mat and the other, all of it.
Dumai Wells: 2005-10-19
Noal is the key. She specifies that the rescue will never be successful without all three being there. If Noal is Jain, which seems pretty likely after reading KOD, then the snakes and foxes will have a field day rummaging through his experiences.
TSR CH "Doorways" Moiraine says: "Sensations, emotions, experiences. They rummage through them; you can feel them doing it, making your skin crawl"
In the letter she tells Thom to heed the rules to the game closely. Obviously He will provide the music, Mat will probably provide both the fire and the iron getting both from aludra. Remember that she also deals with iron. The problem is how can they hide those things from them when they specifically ask if you are carrying any of those things before anything else..also, they can read the pattern in someways and if mat is correct then they are in hhis head anyway so they should see his and thom's scheme to begin with. I just feel like they might be taken with Noal and while they are "savoring" his adventures thom and mat will make a move.
Anubis: 2005-10-19
**You would have to be blind, however, to not take Olver into consideration, because of his obsession with the Snakes and Foxes game. Also, I believe Olver to be Gaidal Cain reborn, so it would just seem fitting.**
listening to a child's information and taking him into battle are two VERY different things. Also moiraine said 3 men. thom mat and one other man. not one other boy.
and btw. Oliver = Gaidal has been killed, lit on fire, defecated on, buried, dug up, chopped into tiny pieces, lit on fire again, and scattered for the crows. Its dead. leave it alone.
therobotbadger: 2005-10-19
**Also, we know the Eelfinn hold individuals and then kill them. Why would we presume in this instance that Moiraine wants to be there... Especially considering the fact that we know in many futures Moiraine sees, all of them die in captivity. **
**Why didn't Moiraine ask for leavetaking and her life, if you believe she got her three wishes?**
Moiraine saw her fate in the rings and knew she would need to step aside for a time. (Possibly every future she saw in which she did not stay in the doorway ended in disaster.) She asked, as part of her bargain, the Eelfinn to keep her until Mat comes for her. They accept, knowing that they want Mat to come back, probably demanding some price from her. She doesn't know when Mat will come back, just that he will in his own time. Once Mat comes back, however, her bargain is complete, and if Mat doesn't get her out the 'Finn are free to keep her or skin her as they so desire. She only uses the word "captive" to describe one of the bad outcomes (which she only uses after discussing Mat's return); before he comes back she is there by choice and not a captive. She doesn't ask for leavetaking in her bargain because she desires the exact opposite: to stay.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-20
I cannot understand why Moiraine would simply step aside, and choose to be held. She saw her future. Her future being pushing Lanfear through the doorway, and being taken and held by the Finns, because that is what the Eelfinn do. Her only chance at survival is through writing a letter to Thom, and waiting until Mat and Thom and another Man come to save her, which isn't guaranteed whatsoever. Moiraine gives us no reason to believe that she saw, in her futures, that she was going to ask to stay to be held by the Finns for future good she can and will do. This idea that Moiraine would willingly "step aside" doesn't fit with her character. If she could have left by other means, she would have.
Dumai Wells: 2005-10-20
Hey I wanted to ask a question after reading Tamyrlin's last response. Does time flow differently in finnland? I'm not sure but I think I remember Moiraine saying something about it in TSR? I might be confusing it with the world of dreams but its just a thought. It would be interesting if it did because that could change everything. Maybe we'll find out that only a few days have passed for her while she's in there instead of several months.
Village Idiot: 2005-10-20
Moiraine definitely found out about her present situation from the rings in Rhuidan. As for not being able to get back into the present world, I believe that since the doorway got destroyed there is simply no way for her to get back. If I remember correctly, the 'finns physically grabbed Mat and hauled him out. They didn't just poof him away. Lanfear only returned because she got killed or killed herself. Perhaps these 'finns do kill everyone they deal with. That is if Mat actually died. Hmmm. Another thing I beleive is that Moiraine still has her powers.
As far Moiraine surviving in the world of the 'finns, I really don't know. I would think that if she did make her "wish" she wouldn't have anything to worry about. Then, again Mat is the only one that has dealt with them before. Perhaps he is the only one that has an idea of how.
Wow I'm going to have to think this one over again. I seem to be making more questions for myself. Later perhaps.
Khazhul: 2005-10-20
I know that the letter says three must come but I would still like to consider that more might have to come. (The Olver theory). Just because Moiraine wrote that three must come doesn't make it the truth or the WHOLE truth. She might not be able to mention Olver because while she might have knowledge of him, the others can not, it might mean failure if they did. I don't believe myself that Olver will sit idly by while the others go in, it's his favorite game and he's been itching for battle.
Now to debunk my theory a little myself but as we know, Moiraine being AS can find loopholes in telling the truth. She does say that more than three coming will mean death for all but does that mean three coming at the same time? Maybe Olver does his own thing there that helps but not directly related to her escape so Moiraine didn't see him in her visions.
I have a question also becuase I'm not sure on this. Is it positive fact that both the snakes and the foxes rummage through the sensations of memories and such or was Moiraine just talking about the doorway in Tear? Maybe the Ruidean doorway (foxes?) get something else out of the deal. They might have tried to kill Mat unlike the ones in Tear because they don't read the pattern like they do. They don't know Mat is important. I don't remember them being excited about having a Taveren in their midst too. But I don't have my library with me so I can't be sure. Just some food for theory thought.
Kylin Taimar: 2005-10-20
Maybe you’re all going about this in the wrong way. You are focusing on the rescuers as the cause of and effect of Moiraine’s going into the Doorway. There are a myriad of other reasons, but the one that comes to me is probably the simplest. Sometimes in Chess, you have use the Queen to take out the other Queen in order to save the King.
Moiraine knew a lot about her possible futures, but the ones you’re not considering is the ones that involved taking Lanfear into the doorway. Why take Lanfear into it? I can tell you three very good reasons: Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. Do you think that Lanfear would have allowed any of these three to live? She could have seen the futures where she did not stop Lanfear that day, which very would could have ended with the deaths of Rand’s lovers. What would happen at Tar’mon Gaidon if Andor had not been rallied, if Min weren’t there to ensure that Rand and the Asha’man learned from Cadsuane, if Aviendha weren’t there to help get the Bowl of Winds? I’m just putting this out there to give you another road to think down.
Heron: 2005-10-20
I think that the Eelfinns are guiding Mat along a certain path. I think they enjoy the game they play with humans more than anything else. And that the bargains, gifts, wishes and foretellings are a way of controlling humans to reach their own goal. Their goal I think is to keep the game going. Through the encounters with the Finns we've seen its easy to see that they don't live for much else if anything. So it would be logical for them to try and keep randland going strong and full of humans. The finn also don't like the shadow hate it in fact so it would also seem logical to assume that the finns don't want the DO to rule the human world as he woud'nt be happy if anyone met them. Which would make the Finns seriously unhappy as well. If this is true then it be that the Finns are trying to keep the DO away and have the humans continue to vist them.
One point to go with this is Mat. Mat is vital to the light as it's said(can't remenber where) that if any of the three Mat/Perrin/Rand die then the shadow will win before the LB will even start. I think that Mat would have died if he did'nt have the battle memories(that's my opinion)given to him by the Eelfinns. In which case the Finns havd had a chance to give the light no chance of winning the LB. So they decided to let the two sides continue batterling without giving it outright to the shadow. this shows that the Finns are not Dark.
These things make me think that the Finns are trying to control the Humans and not for the dark
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-20
It does make sense for Moiraine to step aside Tam. Remember in her letter to Rand. There were two possible outcomes that day at the docks. Moiraine going to *'finn-land is one. The other is Rand starts calling himself Lews Therin and is Lanfear's lover. Moiraine's ultimate goal is not Rand, but to get Rand to Tarmon Gaidon. If the only way for that to happen is to be the prisoner of the *'finns for a while then I can easily see her doing that. Her entire life is devoted to seeing that goal accomplished. She'd give her life for that. I'm fairly sure she'd give than her life for that, ie she'd willingly sit out for a time if it meant that her quest succeeded.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-20
Sbx, c'mon there is no connection. She hit Lanfear through the doorway to protect Rand. In other words, she willing became prisoner of the Finns, to protect Rand, but not as one of her wishes from the Eelfinn. If she had three wishes, wishing to remain with them has nothing to do with the outcome regarding Lanfear, and sounds ridiculous. Moiraine didn't want to give up her quest with Rand, yet she was forced to because of Lanfear. The idea that Moiraine would ask the Finns to be held as one of her wishes is ridiculous.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-20
no it's not. Min's viewing said that she still has something to do. "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?" Almost certainly allows for your contingencies from our previous chat. If everything goes wrong with the rescue there's still a chance. However, she still has something to do, and it's quite possible that she needed to be away for a time. The everyone thinking that she was dead is a part of this. Remember the first name at the top of Rand's mental list? It's Moiraine. Her return might help him learn a few things that he needs to before he faces the Dark One, but she needed to be away, Rand needed to think she was dead and gone before that could happen.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-20
This is the problem I continue to have with what you are suggesting. As with the Finns, it is the Wheel that corrects, not Moiraine and not the Finns. Moiraine wants to live. We know now that Moiraine is coming back, but you pretend like this was all Moiraine's plan. She saw an inevitable future during which if she went through the doorway with Moiraine, Rand would have a chance. If she didn't, he wouldn't. She also saw that if Mat asked about her letter from Thom at his request, at that time they would have enough information (he needed Birgitte and Olver, to get the necessary pieces about getting into the tower) to get to her and potentially save her. We have no indication she wanted to remain prisoner until an appointed time which she helped decide that she would exit and save the world. It is the Wheel that is spinning this, Moiraine is a thread in it. I can't believe you are pushing the idea that Moiraine purposefully wished to be held prisoner. If you say that she wished for her life, then I might agree with such a proposition, smart enough to ask for her life, just not leavetaking. But if you are suggesting that she knew she would get three wishes and she asked to be held by them, I think you are way off the mark. If she was that smart, she would have asked for her life and leavetaking.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-20
I'm not saying that one of her wishes was to remain with the *'finns, I'm saying that was one of the things she was willing to give up in order to get her other requests, whatever they might have been.
Further, what if, in her trip in Rhuidean she saw that if she asked and got both her life and her freedom that it would be disaster for Rand?
Heron: 2005-10-20
Why would Moiraine wish to be held prisoner if she had three wishes then it would be smarter to wish for her to stay as long as she likes then go when she likes or when Mat and co come to rescue her. I think she's being held against her will by the Finns. Thet're doing it maybe to influence people in a way. Or she is'nt able to get out from the inside(like when you lock yourself out of your house) because the doorway melted and the Tower of Genjhgi(not sure on spelling) can only be opened on the outside by doing the opening move of the game snakes and foxes.
The way RJ wrote that to open the ToG you had to say and do the things thatopen the game of Snakes and Foxes(a triangle and wavy lines I think) was so good it just seemed to fit and be so obvious after Olver said it
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-20
I'm fine with that Sbx, and I agree it is possible that she was what to wish for that would do best for her to say, as in, what would keep her alive long enough to be rescued. However, that is assuming she got her wishes.
mako0424: 2005-10-20
I agree with this theory, i think the Finns were looking forward to Mat coming back, they should have known right. Well, from Knife of Dreams, we are to assume that the third person will be Noal, but i still think it will be Olver, and he will be held captive, but thats when we find out time runs differently, and Moiraine, being Aes Sedai could survive the passage of time, while Olver is only finally discovered and revealed to be Gaidal Cain.
Birgitte will hear this gfrom Mat and go in to save him, possibly, Tower of Ghenji again, but i think it will be in Tel Aran Rhiod, and that he will have age enough to become a fighter, maybe still young, but past puberty.
Callandor: 2005-10-21
**Hey I wanted to ask a question after reading Tamyrlin's last response. Does time flow differently in finnland? I'm not sure but I think I remember Moiraine saying something about it in TSR? I might be confusing it with the world of dreams but its just a thought. It would be interesting if it did because that could change everything. Maybe we'll find out that only a few days have passed for her while she's in there instead of several months.**
Yes, time flows differently in Aelfinn and Eelfinn land (different from both is why I include both). Aelfinnland seemed to run nearly the same as Randland if not exactly the same -- Eelfinnland ran completely different and why Mat survived being hung soon after Rand exited after seven days.
Both could function like tel'aran'rhiod, where time is relatively random. Sometimes faster, slower, or nearly the same as the real world.
**I know that the letter says three must come but I would still like to consider that more might have to come. (The Olver theory).**
More means death.
**Just because Moiraine wrote that three must come doesn't make it the truth or the WHOLE truth. She might not be able to mention Olver because while she might have knowledge of him, the others can not, it might mean failure if they did.**
Whatever. Moiraine gave the knowledge she knew. If she held back, why would she? How would they be impinged by what she learned?
She's seen them go with more than four people. It means death. Death for all or death for individuals in either case it's death. That's not a lie about it.
Moiraine's an Aes Sedai -- but she's a damn Aes Sedai knowing she will be in need of rescue. Why would she hold back any information that she knew?
**Why take Lanfear into it?**
Because either Rand was killed at the docks or he was captured and showed up later responding to Lews Therin. Moiraine says this in her letter.
**I agree with this theory, i think the Finns were looking forward to Mat coming back, they should have known right. Well, from Knife of Dreams, we are to assume that the third person will be Noal, but i still think it will be Olver, and he will be held captive, but thats when we find out time runs differently, and Moiraine, being Aes Sedai could survive the passage of time, while Olver is only finally discovered and revealed to be Gaidal Cain.**
1. Again, Olver is not a "man." Moiraine specifically stated "a man I don't know" or of the like, but it was "man."
2. Olver is not Gaidal Cain. Forget the notion. RJ has confirmed it many times.
Khazhul: 2005-10-21
**Whatever. Moiraine gave the knowledge she knew. If she held back, why would she? How would they be impinged by what she learned?**
I guess I can only respond to this by what I previously wrote. She wouldn't say anything about it if the three that come aren't supposed to KNOW about it. The same reason she knew that Mat couldn't see the letter until he asked for it. She had knowledge Mat was needed for her rescue but didn't leave him a letter becuase the events had to happen a certain way.
**She's seen them go with more than four people. It means death. Death for all or death for individuals in either case it's death. That's not a lie about it.**
We all know that everything in these books are from the perspective of individuals. Just becuase someone thinks something or thinks they know the whole truth doesn't mean that it is the whole truth. I might not have said this clearly before but I was trying to put across that only three are supposed to come and rescue Moiraine. My point is, does this mean no one else can enter for any other reason? I guess I just don't accept that Olver will sit idly by while three of his favorite people go into a place of danger. Mat his guardian/father figure, Thom one of his uncles, and Noal his hero. He might enter later while everyone is outside getting concerned over the events but afraid to enter. Does Moiraine have knowledge that he'll enter? Who knows, maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. That might be the factor of whether they all live, all are captured, or all die.
**Moiraine's an Aes Sedai -- but she's a damn Aes Sedai knowing she will be in need of rescue. Why would she hold back any information that she knew?**
I think I answered this to the best of my abilities above. And now to address one last issue here by using a quote again from above.
**Whatever. Moiraine gave the knowledge she knew.**
Whatever? Seriously, is rudeness that necessary. I like reading others theories, sometimes they make me think about things differently, sometimes they change my perspective. Hell, a few theories here have made me do a complete 180 on what I firmly believed. I don't dismiss your perspective on the theory, nor do I dismiss your objections. I would, however, like to keep things civil.
lurk: 2005-10-21
I read the entire thread and the thing coming back into my head was Olver.
Olver is known for sneaking away and following people he should not. what if he follows, goes in after Mat, Thom and Noal and rescues the day. Maybe the finn don´t know how to deal with kids. They are used to making their bargains with adults. Kids can ask surprising questions.
Furthermore the fact is that he is continuously playing S&F and it is remarked several times that he has to learn that you cannot win without cheating.
Maybe with his life or that of the three men in the world he probably likes most on the line he leanrs that he has to cheat.
Music = Thoms voice (not recognisable)
Fire = aludra´s firesticks maybe nicked by Olver(not recognisable)
iron = noals steel knife But mat and Thom also use knifes!(Mat had a steel kife that passed the test in tear)
courage = Mat definately (look at how he went after the forsaken, black ajah and the gholam)
So he ingredients are there
Music to dazzle: Thom starts singing fire to blind: Olver lights a firestick
courage to strenghten: mat keeps his head cool and tells the rest what to do
Iron to bind: the knifes keep the finn at bay
just playing a scenario in my mind
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-21
the iron is likely cold iron, which is different from steel. Somewhere, a long time ago, someone posted old folk lore that the fair folk, ie faeries, couldn't stand the touch of cold iron. They loose all of their powers or something similar if they're touched by it. Something tells me knives and daggers just ain't gonna cut it.
Lauric: 2005-10-21
Getting out of work, forgive me if i'm repeating what someone already said...
On that note:
Noal will be the third contestant.. it mentions, more than once, that he wanted to see the Tower of Ghenjei. (Something like "that was one thing he never got to do" when he was talking about his 'cousin' jain)
One for one? Absolutely, it'll be mr Farstrider who has then done 'everything he wanted to do'. It's just too well set up :)
I agree that they're trying to get Mat back to Finnland, just not your reasoning. I think (as I know was pointed out) they aren't evil, in actuality, just very very different. I think that they have a sense of being able to read/alter the pattern in a fashion. I think they can do this because their world (parallel to Randland) is actually...you ready? INSIDE the Wheel of Time. They're considered evil because they ... weave the pattern and must do so without bias, but they realize Mat has to return to them in order to get Moiraine so that she can help with the Last Battle and thus not let the DO destroy the Wheel (The Finn's home).
I know, it's a stretch, but i'm in a hurry! :p
Tristin: 2005-10-21
On a side note:
Regarding the evil of snakes and foxes, I think that people in Randland can safely think of them as evil in the same sense that a deer can think of a hunter as evil. The human hunter sees himself as so far above the animal that killing it is a sport...a distraction...a game. Wearing a deer-skin jacket is like having a very comfortable trophy. In fact, the Randlanders are almost identical to the deer precisely because in our world and in theirs the prey always gets something for playing (most of the time). It might be a saltblock or big pile of carrots and apples...a few wishes or the answer to some questions...
In the end it all comes down to what is the right definition of evil. There seem to be two kinds: (1) chaos-evil--the kind of evil which continually works to undermine order and creation, (2) selfish evil--the kind of evil which turned SL in on itself...everyone trying to get the most out of everyone else (i.e., capitalism hahaha jk sort of.).
Madoc Comadrin: 2005-10-21
***Whatever. Moiraine gave the knowledge she knew. If she held back, why would she? How would they be impinged by what she learned? ***
I don't know why she would hold back anything, but I think that she does not speak as plainly as she could. Note that the letter says: "Remember what you know about the game of Snakes and Foxes. Remember, and heed."
What she does not say is make sure you bring some firesticks and cold iron and Thom get ready to give the High Chant. Or whatever it is that they are supposed to HEED from the game of Snakes and Foxes.
So she is (perhaps) playing some games with her letter. Tercel on the message board had the intersting idea that maybe there is a hidden message in the letter. A cipher like is used in the "Game of Houses."
Certainly Thom could decipher the hidden message. In TDR Thom says that he can recognize a code or cipher even if he doesn't know what it says. And he has had some time to puzzle out any hidden meaning.
One other part of the letter makes me suspect some hidden meaning: "There are many things I cannot tell you lest I bring disaster, but what I can, I will. Heed carefully what I say."
The heed carefully bit may be a tip off for a secret message. And the part about not being able to tell everything *might* mean that not everyone can know everything. e.g. there's a part that you should not tell Matt.
Now under the (speculative) assumption that there is a hidden message what would it say.
1) Mushy stuff for Thom. Maybe
2) More directions about the rescue that Matt and/or the third man should not know. Interesting.
So to keep the Olver story alive (not that I 100% believe in Olver being in on the rescue), I can imagine the secret message going like this: While only 3 of you must make the attempt, when I see the attempt working that is when there is a boy also comes in, but not with the 3 of you. And Mat is really pissed that the boy is there, so don't tell him that the boy may come or it won't work. But when the 3 of you come and the boy doesn't show up later, then we all end up as captives and don't escape.
Anyway, you get the idea. My only conclusions are that 1) Moiraine is not speaking as plainly as it appears at first. 2) There are indications of a hidden message. 3) We can't rule out that Olver ends up going in.
jibbin: 2005-10-22
hey everyone, just curious, how many ppl here read the glossary? did no one notice that the Aelfinn look like snakes, and the Eelfinn look like foxes?
At this point every ones saying to me, whats your point?
There is a game in Rands World, where the only way you can win, is by cheating, a game where there is a spider's web like board. a game that a young lad called Olver, loves playing it.
*Click*
When Mat is visiting the 'finns worlds, there passageways rotate around, passing the same places, windows with the same view. Just as if you were following a web, around a board.
Some how, that game links in, not really positive how, but it has to be, RJ wouldn't place the game in, refering to it so often.
oh, yeah, i seem to remember someone saying that they saw Brigitte with a younger man, in reference to Gaidal Cain, so far Olver is the only one that can be him, though it doesnt make much sense to me, but i cannot see RJ dropping in a brand new character in the last book, but he may.
silverwolf: 2005-10-22
Olver is not Gaidal Cain! RJ has said so explicitly, repeatedly, and concretely. The theory is dead: Let it drop. If you really want to discuss it, there is a thread for people who enjoy that particular exercise in futility under the "Most popular Theories" section (unless it has been removed since it is a dead topic; it was there last I checked). The current thread is in no way related to theories pertaining to Gaidal Cain's identity--please keep such speculation out of this discussion.
Hammar: 2005-10-23
I just recently read the few chapters in KoD dealing with this theory. I believe that the prophecy about Mat giving up half the light in the world may have something to do with this "rescue." Mat seems convinced that the finns can see through his eyes. So if he intentionally makes himself blind (i.e. blindfolding himself) or he becomes blind by some accident, the finns can't see what he is doing. Therefore Mat, Thom, and Noal (and perhaps Olver) can fool the finns at the their own game and rescue Moiraine.
Callandor: 2005-10-23
**I guess I can only respond to this by what I previously wrote. She wouldn't say anything about it if the three that come aren't supposed to KNOW about it. The same reason she knew that Mat couldn't see the letter until he asked for it. She had knowledge Mat was needed for her rescue but didn't leave him a letter becuase the events had to happen a certain way.**
So it's not the Eelfinn determining a person's destiny now -- it's Moiraine?
**We all know that everything in these books are from the perspective of individuals. Just becuase someone thinks something or thinks they know the whole truth doesn't mean that it is the whole truth.**
You're saying Moiraine is either completely seeing things wrong in her repeated viewings or that she hasn't explained them correctly. DEATH TO MORE THAN THREE.
**My point is, does this mean no one else can enter for any other reason?**
Yes -- MORE MEANS DEATH.
**Does Moiraine have knowledge that he'll enter?**
As far as we have been informed -- no. No one else will enter.
**They're considered evil because they ... weave the pattern and must do so without bias, but they realize Mat has to return to them in order to get Moiraine so that she can help with the Last Battle and thus not let the DO destroy the Wheel (The Finn's home).**
They're a parallel world -- not the Wheel of Time.
**hey everyone, just curious, how many ppl here read the glossary? did no one notice that the Aelfinn look like snakes, and the Eelfinn look like foxes?**
They're both described that way when Mat visits both races as well, in The Shadow Rising.
**oh, yeah, i seem to remember someone saying that they saw Brigitte with a younger man, in reference to Gaidal Cain, so far Olver is the only one that can be him, though it doesnt make much sense to me, but i cannot see RJ dropping in a brand new character in the last book, but he may.**
Olver is not Gaidal Cain.
**Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q: He's too old.
RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
Q: Is the difference in time constant?
RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.
Q: It's different for different people, then?
RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.**
He's a red herring that so many people have swallowed hook, line, and sinker. Gaidal Cain is just a random kid out in the world over ~there~ and will almost certainly have no effect on the story anymore at all.
The Last Battle will be won by the Light -- we know that. Gaidal is reborn now. He's needed for later events.
dutch206: 2005-10-23
I don't have enough information to make a 5 paragraph theory out of this, but I strongly suspect that Mat is a version of Odin, a roguish norse deity. In Norse legend, Odin traded one of his eyes to learn secret lore. I think this might be how Mat loses "half the light of the world". It would be just like the 'finns to do that to Mat to punish him for beating them the first time.
As for the rest of Tamyrlin's theory, T has built theories on top of theories, resulting in a house of cards. However, I happen to like this version of events. It makes logical sense. Won't we all be surprised when RJ comes up with something totally different than we imagined??
: 2005-10-24
**So it's not the Eelfinn determining a person's destiny now -- it's Moiraine?**
I don't remember any part of the books saying that the Eelfinn determined destiny. Granted I don't have the side reference guides and such, I only have the books so if the Eelfinn DO determine destiny could you quote that. I thought that was just anothers theory that they did. I'm also not saying Moiraine determines destiny, I'm saying she is manipulating events so she has the highest probability of survival. She might be leaving things out of the letter because if Thom, Mat, or the one other know about it before entering the tower, it will lessen her chances then yes, I believe she would leave it out.
**You're saying Moiraine is either completely seeing things wrong in her repeated viewings or that she hasn't explained them correctly. DEATH TO MORE THAN THREE.**
I'm saying we don't know exactly what Moiraine saw as we didn't enter the rings with her. Our only knowledge of what she saw is in her letter to Thom. I'm saying also that she can tell the truth but not the whole truth to manipulate everyone to do what she thinks needs to be done. Did Moiraine's visions end at the rescue? Did she see herself helping Rand one more time just as Min's viewings said she must? (Assuming that Moiraine is the dead person in her failed veiwing) If Moiraine knows she is needed then she will do anything to be there.
**Yes -- MORE MEANS DEATH.**
My thought/theory is that more TRYING means death. More than three coming in for HER rescue means death. If you look at the quote from the book it says:
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: A Village In Shiota
“If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all..."
If a fourth person enters not trying to rescue Moiraine but with some other agenda: rescueing Mat, wanting an adventure, etc.. maybe what they do in the Finn world, why not aimed at rescuing Moiraine directly will affect the rescue. Such as two Ta'veren being there at the same time affected them all.
I guess I just can't accept Olver not having any part. Too much points at him and his obsession with Snakes and Foxes. Was he brought in just to get Mat interested in it? I guess that could be the case but I doubt it. My thought is that Olver is a hero of the horn reborn. Which one? I don't know as I don't know all of them. Not Gaidal but there are many more and I don't think we have all of them but just look at the training he is going through: horseriding, soldiering, tactics, womanizing :), poetry, etc, etc, etc.. If he is a hero of the horn, it stands to reason he would be somewhat Ta'veren himself. Him entering might give the same or similar effect that Rand and Mat did in Tear. That might force the snakes and foxes to want to get rid of them instead of imprisoning them.
I don't know, maybe I'm just building a vapor thin theory here, but I still don't believe that Olver won't be involved.
: 2005-10-25
Now, Callandor, Isn't that interesting; Olver is a **red herring**. That puts a rather abrupt end to the line of reasoning about Gaidal Cain. Although it does seem that Olver will have some effect on the story according to your RJ quotes. All the same thanks for that little gem 'cos I was beginning to wonder how Olver could age conveniently to suite Birgitte (wouldn't that have been nice?).
Anyway I have some points for consideration regarding Mat and the 'left eye' thing:
First of all I wonder, do we agree that debate has been specifically over Mats left eye? This is significant.
There have been many comments regarding the suggestion that Mat is to somehow to lose his eye both from Min's viewings and from Egwene's dreams. In Egwene's dreams she sees him weighing his left eye (against what we don't know) but this looks like (and I know I am repeating what has already been said here) when, also in another of Egwene's dreams, he was weighing two Aes Sedai that he brought out of Ebou Dar. It seems then that it should be part of a consious decision to lose either the left eye itself or the sight in the eye, more likely the former according to another one of Egwene's dreams: you know the one with the wide brimmed hat covering his eye and blood streaming down his face, althougth I am well aware that this could be somehow metaphorical, but it just seems so specific.
So if with the assumption of the loss of his eye, this begs the question: why the hell would he willingly give up his own eye? Well, if we remember the description of Mat's foxhead medallion I believe that it has the old symbol for the Aes Sedai in place of it's left eye, perhaps this is a clue that somehow the power of the Eelfinn extends only to seeing through Mat's left eye. Maybe Mat will figure this out. Even considering this as the best explanation I have, I cannot see that Mat would seriously consider gouging his own eye out, even with Thom's encouragement I'm still not sure. Perhaps he will only cover the eye until he reaches the tower of Ghenjei where he may ask the Eelfinn to get out of his head...perhaps.
Oh, it seems fairly obvious that when Mat read Moiraine's letter to Thom in KoD and she said to remember the rules of Snakes and Foxes. She probably means for Thom to take an instrument (music to dazzle) for the Aelfinn (they are snakes remember), Mat to bring some fireworks (or just firesticks) to blind the Eelfinn, and the iron to bind is either to be brought by our mysterious third party member or is already where Moiraine is being held. The courage to strengthen is obviously something that each member of the party carries within.
I would like to ask whether anybody has any ideas as to the spatial layout of the world of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and two things specifically: Firstly in tSR what was going on when Mat, Rand and Moiraine all went through the doorway and spoke to the Aelfinn? Also do the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn live in the same place or what? If so why do you need two separate door ter'angreal to reach them?
Finally as a minor point it seems quite clear that the Eelfinn at least probably have some defense against the one power, maybe they all wear medallions like the one they gave Mat, and/or the place where they are keeping Moiraine is made of the same material or the entire place is like the stedding. If this is so it confuses the nature of how the Aelfinn and Eelfinn live together since we know that Rand was able to use his flame wrought sword when with the Aelfinn. Food for thought anyway.
Apologies for the lack of quotes, I'm afraid I don't the relevent books with me at uni.
Tristin: 2005-10-28
I agree...for all of you people who think "giving up half the light of the world" means Mat's eye...why would he cut it out of his own head. Or agree to let someone else do it. This is self-mutilation beyond anything we've seen in the series. I could see him getting his eye poke out in a fight of some kind but that doesn't really fit with the balance scale vision and all that.
ambrosjb: 2005-10-29
Hi guys, this is actually my first post, but I just needed to throw something out to all of you.
I think we need to think a little harder about what Moraine's 3 wishes/gifts would have been. While I'm not sure what all 3 of them would have been, I think it's almost a given that she would ask what Rand needs to do to win the last battle or how she can help him, etc. She would have also asked to leave with her life. The last one I have no idea. Here's the snag, the Finns would have given her the info for Rand to win the last battle but in order to leave she has to be rescued by Matt and Thom and one other.
Again, I apologize if this has been thrown around, but we might be able to come up with something by guessing her wishes. Moraine knew the most about the Finns by far. It would only make sense that she would have asked how to help Rand.
Callandor: 2005-10-30
**I agree...for all of you people who think "giving up half the light of the world" means Mat's eye...why would he cut it out of his own head. Or agree to let someone else do it. This is self-mutilation beyond anything we've seen in the series.**
Mat thinks (and it's what we have to go on for facts about them for now, but it's important that Mat thinks it anyway) that the Aelfinn and/or Eelfinn put some sort of tracking device on him to see his memories until he dies. Implying that it could actually be physically located, in an eye.
Mat going into the Tower of Ghenjei to get Moiraine, and it's success, could be compromised if they still have this link. So, if he removes the eye that has it (if one does), they will not have the link and the group will stand a better chance of success. Hence, half the light for the world.
JakOShadows: 2005-11-01
Tam:
In general the theory looks good. The finns did enjoy reading the pattern around Mat and they do enjoy "playing their game" with Randlanders. But I don't necessarily think they have control over how it happens. They just know it will happen. And I do believe that Noal will be their third person, because he has the most to offer out of anyone in their group.
As to who is going to bring what, I don't know who is going to do what but Mat, Thom, and Noal all have what is needed. I was just wondering if anyone has considered that the ter'angreal Mat has might be the iron. I don't think it'll get taken away, but it could be used against the finns. And Mat, Thom, and Noal certainly have a lot of courage. So they have the means to cheat.
But I don't understand why Moiraine would leave so much out. A lot of people are saying that it would be different than what she says, but why would she lie about what has to be done. There may be somethings she doesn't want Mat to know, and left as clues for Thom, but it could be she didn't know exactly how it would happen. She probably only knew that only three people could come to have any chance of being freed - Mat, Thom, and a man she didn't know.
And as to her wishes, I think it is still largely speculation. The only new thing we know about her situation is that she is captive. So it could mean that when she made her wishes, she had to choose between Rand and her. And she chose Rand. My speculation would be: I want Rand to win the LB. I want to be stronger in the one power. I want to remain unharmed. Hence, she would accomplish everything she wants but has to sacrifice her freedom for a short time. I'm not saying it couldn't happen differently, but rather just giving an example of how the situation could be set up. Somepeople seem to think that she had a choice to leave, when I don't think she did. Not to mention, the ter'angreal doorway to Randland was melted so she might not have been able to leave. So it is not as simple as just wishing to leave and be alive.
As to Mat losing his eye, I tend to think it is the connection to the finns that he is trying to remove. So he makes a request to remove the finns connection from his eye, and to do that they have to pull out his eye or blind him in someway. And if Egwene's vision is almost taken literally maybe he'll dice with the finns to get a deal. Because he has already asked three requests. That would be a cool thing to see.
Tristin: 2005-11-02
it would be funny if he diced to have the finns out of his head, wins, and then they cut his eye out to complete the bargain.
as for the iron being matt's medalion, i don't know why the little critters would have gave it to him in the first place if they knew it could and (if they see the future) would be used against them.
JakOShadows: 2005-11-02
Tristin:
They did try to kill him after they gave it to them. They probably didn't mean for Rand to step walk up and save him, so that could be why, who knows. His luck has to count for something right.
raven killer: 2005-11-03
I agree that in the tower, not during the last battle, is when mat will give up "half the light in the world" (proving that moiraine will have a huge part in TG since this action "saves it") and i think that he will lose his left eye as part of the bargain. if egwene's dream is to be belived (sorry i lost the bookmark on the page AND forget the book...) "Mat balancing his left eye on a scale" will mean the A and E will want his eye for some purpose.
I don't have much time to think about it so any extensions on this theory would be cool.
FraKcture: 2005-11-03
At this point, we do not even know if Moiraine has made any wishes. Perhaps being "held" means not having made any wishes yet. Perhaps this is what happened to Lanfear. She was "held" for awhile and then finally decided to try making the wishes and died in the attempt (to finally be recycled as Cyndane). Tam and Shadowbane had quite a debate trying to reason out why Moirane is still being held. And I'm simply suggesting yet another viewpoint. I don't know if I'm right, just suggesting.
Perhaps when the group arrives to rescue her, then she will use her wishes. Moirane may have learned this from the rings; that if she bargained with the Eelfinn before Mat arrived, she would die.
My view of the rescue is that Olver will not be one of the "3 men", but I do feel that he will have some part to play. Just getting them to the tower, maybe. Noal / Jain is the obvious choice for the third man. But Bayle Doman has an outside shot as well since he is the person who knows where it is.
My bottom line is that at this point, I remain firmly unconvinced regarding this theory. But I do agree with the theories that Mat's "giving up half the light" has to do with freeing Moirane. I like Callandor's description the best of all so far. But I also liked the comment (I think it was an anonymous one) linking Mat's foxhead's funky eye with Mat's losing his eye prophecies. There may be some something there as well. Perhaps the foxhead acts as a medium for the link, but I don't see how giving up the medallion could satisfy "give up half the light". But it does offer some explanation regarding why the Eelfinn give things away to begin with. Are there any theories that have explored this already?
Jiana: 2005-11-03
I like where you went with this Tam. I tried to read through the whole thread, and I will after I submit this reply... I had to go ahead and do it or I would forget my train of thought. :)
**Maybe this is the point at which Mat gives up "half the light of the world?"**
A lot of people, including me, have assumed that this means he will lose an eye, due to the dream or viewing of him with an eye on a balance scale, and the one of him with blood streaming down his face but you can't see his eyes. While I still mostly agree with that, I have another idea just to throw out there. What are the 2 literal lights of the world? The sun and the moon. What is half the light of the world? Could be the moon. Perhaps it isn't Olver who follows. I can just see him wanting to go so badly that Mat puts him under the guard of Harnan, Vanin, et al., so Olver wouldn't possibly be able to go at that point. But what if Tuon were to follow her Toy? Noal could very well make a new bargain with the 'Finn, I do agree with that. But Moiraine says that if more than three come, it spells disaster. So... The letter only says that the *third* will be a man. It doesn't say anything about what gender other people would be if they come also, only that it would not work out well. So would it not be possible, then, for Tuon, the Daughter of the Nine Moons, to follow and be trapped or killed? Like I said, just an idea, but it would fulfill the 'Finn's statement, and nicely wrap up the Seanchan. If Mat is the Prince of Ravens now, what will he be after Tuon becomes Empress? Why, quite possibly the leader of the Seanchan.
This, IMO, would nicely wrap up the Seanchan and tie them to Rand's side for TG, while at the same time keeping the Seanchan from "reclaiming" any of the mainlands. I realize this may be a little disjointed, but I'd be surprised if you all are not used to that from me by now :) and as I said, it's more just a speculation than an actual theory.
Jiana: 2005-11-03
Oh, and just by the way, did anyone else think Mat's falling in love was odd and really not like him at all??? :)
JakOShadows: 2005-11-03
Jiana: Yes, that is, that he fell in love. But I don't think Tuon will die. Rather, I think it will be a political marriage and falling in love partly that will allow them to create an allowance. Because there are some big differences to overcome otherwise. And we have also seen that Egwene's dreams a fairly direct, so it seems likely he will lose his eye.
Saidar Haran: 2005-11-04
Ok, I just thought of this and had to post it.
Tuon says that she doesn't want to channel; she chooses not to and that makes her different from Seta and Bethamin. I personally don't think that Tuon will go into the Tower; however, if she does, perhaps she and Mat will give up Saidar to the 'Finns. Often channelers describe channelling as being filled with the Light; so half the Light of the world could be half of the Power. I hope this doesn't happen, but it is a thought. Destroy it at your leisure.
JakOShadows: 2005-11-04
Good catch Saidar Haran, except that Tuon probably won't go to the finns. But it was an interesting idea as to giving up half the light of the world. I more or less think the quote is related to Mat related to losing his eye though.
Saidar Haran: 2005-11-04
I agree that Mat will give up his eye, I just thought the other idea was interesting. But it doesn't change my opinions.
Village Idiot: 2005-11-05
Just something I had a question about and have never heard an answer for.
I know that the twisted doorframe was a terangreal. Would the shining tower be a terangreal also? And if so wouldn't taking something as powerful as Mat's terangreal to the world of the A and E be devestating?
Callandor: 2005-11-06
**I know that the twisted doorframe was a terangreal. Would the shining tower be a terangreal also? And if so wouldn't taking something as powerful as Mat's terangreal to the world of the A and E be devestating?**
As far as we know it's a natural structure. It's probably a bit too big to be a ter'angreal, but who knows.
Bayle: 2005-11-09
A little note on the "Fire to blind" bit. I didn't see anyone mention this, but most seem to presume the fire is to blind the finns, but perhaps that's too literal, and the "Cheaty" way to win the game, is to blind your self.
I do think the self-mutilation of mat's eye is a bit much, but I don't in the least rule out the possibility that Mat will end up blind, or 1/2 blind, and I think the fire will be what does it. He blinds himself with the fire, perhaps looking into the explosion of a firework too closely, like staring at the sun. This will blind him, but the side effect will blind the finns trying to see through his eyes.
Just a thought...
JakOShadows: 2005-11-10
I didn't think that the finns saw through his eyes though. I agree he won't do it purposely, but I always thought the finns read around your head, not through your eyes. Similar to Min's viewing, only a bit more complicated since they can see your thoughts. If your basing it off what Mat says, I tend to believe he doesn't have it quite right either.
vergere6: 2005-12-15
Wouldn't it be very very ironic if the Finns themselves have given Mat the means to dispose of them? Here, i'm thinking of either the ashanderai or the foxhead medallion.
On the other hand,i agree with SBX, i think the finns are doing what they have to in order to safeguard themselves, and are not really evil. Maybe the pattern requires that they safeguard themselves.
How are they able to detect taveren? because they can see the Pattern, maybe even chunks of it, like Min sees portions relevant to individual people. Maybe when you view a taveren, you are viewing the entire pattern, or something like that.. The finns are essential to prepare Rand and Mat for TG, just like Elyas was necessary for Perrin. These Taveren seem to meet and need guides, and it just might be that Mat's guides, in a very strange way, are the finns.
Moiraine has to come back, she was the one who kept wanting Rand to become harder, and now she will be the one finally to teach him laughter and tears. maybe a Cadsuane-Moiraine encounter? (remember, the last time those two met, Cadsuane pushed Moiraine around totally)
One more thought:If the finns are into manipulating people, and even Taveren as some seem to suggest, did they manipulate Rand?
JakOShadows: 2005-12-16
vergere6:
I don't think that it is intentional for the finns to manipulate people, just that their doing it for their own ends. They use their talents to help Randlanders, and in return they try and either get their skins or kill someone or talk with them so that they can sense the pattern. It is exactly like trading. The other person is trying to get the greatest benefit to themselves possible, and if it happens to coincide with being manipulative then so be it. So the point of all this is that they aren't purposely trying to manipulate Mat and Rand, Mat and Rand just happen to be tied to the finns.
Darkelve: 2005-12-19
@Tamyrlin
about this quote:
"What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"
Everyone seems to assume this woman is Moraine. But wouldn't it be ironic if the woman without whom he'll almost certainly fail is Lanfear/Cyndane? ;)
Remember:
- we don't know Moraine is alive or dead
- Lanfear died, we are sure of that, hence "dead"
- Lanfear is 'no more', she is called 'Cyndane' nowadays, hence "gone"
So maybe Rand will almost certainly fail without Lanfear. Or without so else, who knows, but Lanfear is a very good candidate.
JakOShadows: 2005-12-20
It doesn't seem to likely in my mind. Because Rand will be squaring off against Moridin, and if he gets killed, so would Lanfear and Moghedien right. Or else he would have to know about the mindtraps, which he might not. Of course LTT might, but a lot relies on chance for him to figure out how to use them before they are "unusable." And plus, why would RJ misdirect us so much about it if we know Moiraine has to come back anyways, and that she was the most important influence on Rand. It seems like a stretch, but its not completely out of the question. It just doesn't seem likely.
Isgrimner: 2005-12-22
I want to point out a few things I believe pertaining to this theory.
1. I think Moiraine has known she and Thom would be involved romantically since Bearlon in The Eye of the World. I believe Min most likely had a viewing of them when she saw them together. The first evidence of this is when the group meets up in Caemlyn and Moiraine tells Rand that she does not think Thom died in Whitebridge. She does give a flimsy excuse for the knowledge, but I think maybe she did not wish to let on where exactly her knowledge for this belief truely came. The next clue comes in Tear when Moiraine states to Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve that believes she knows the face of the man she will marry better than all of them. She attempts to cover this slip by alluding to the fact that they may share an ignorance. Up to this point the main ways we have been shown that could give Moiraine this knowledge is Min's viewings, a foretelling, or a prophecy. I think it unlikely that it would be anything but Min's viewing.
Later in the Shadow Rising, Moiraine guarantees Thom that she will see him again. By the first oath, Moiraine at least has to believe this for fact in order to say it. Now, this knowledge also could have come from the answers she was given from the Finns as I believe (don't have books on me right now) she had already went through the doorway. Still, I don't think she would have used one of her limited three questions on the matter of Thom. I would believe all her questions revelved someway around Rand, Perrin, and Mat in some fashion.
I think this shows evidence early on that Moiraine had knowledge that she believed, that linked her in some fashion to Thom, and the best sourse for her to have that knowledge seems one of Min's viewings.
2. Regarding Olver and the possible "red herring"/unfulfilled use, I think Olver could do absolutly nothing the rest of the series and have already contributed to a major event in the story. Mat would not have remained in Ebou Dar long enough for a wall to fall on him and injure him if not for Olver. He was ready to leave with Elayne and Nyneave when Olver was missing. This is a major turning as it led to Mat meeting Tuon. Perhaps Olver will have a more significant role in the series yet, but I think this event would be enough to remove Olver's character in the books from being a red herring.
Anubis: 2005-12-23
**- we don't know Moraine is alive or dead
- Lanfear died, we are sure of that, hence "dead"
- Lanfear is 'no more', she is called 'Cyndane' nowadays, hence "gone" **
Min believed Moiraine to be dead, as did everyone else excepting Thom. Therefore she refers to Moiraine as dead and gone. It wasnt some viewing.
Callandor: 2005-12-25
**- we don't know Moraine is alive or dead
- Lanfear died, we are sure of that, hence "dead"
- Lanfear is 'no more', she is called 'Cyndane' nowadays, hence "gone" **
1. We know Moiraine is alive.
2. I'd really like to see you prove that Lanfear died.
Jalwin Moerad: 2006-04-11
Regarding the third person on this expedition: I've been thinking that it would be too simple for Noal to go as the third person. He really doesn't have any connection to iron or Moiraine. And Olver really has nothing to offer, so I can't imagine why they would take him. So I think that the third person will be Perrin. Think about it; as a blacksmith, he has a real connection to iron as well as an iron hammer. He also has a connection to Moiraine. Now, the only difficulty I can see is that Moiraine doesn't name him, but that could just be her not trying to force the pattern, just as she told Thom he couldn't reveal her letter's contents to Mat until he asked. Perrin is in the area, and they have to get together sometime. I think Perrin will be the third person, accompanying Mat and Thom to the Finns.
Sleethe: 2009-11-28
**This idea that Moiraine would willingly "step aside" doesn't fit with her character. If she could have left by other means, she would have.** Tamyrlin, I know this comes very late, but if memory serves me correctly Moiriane is willing to do ANYTHING to defeat the DO. In TEoTW or TGH she even made it clear that she was prepared to do murder to reach her goal, and that is to see the dragon reborn fight and win the last battle. With that in mind, it will then be in her character to "step aside"......if it allows Rand to reach TG.