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he Dice in Mat's Head Are Actually....

by Anubis: 2005-10-24 | 6.86 out of 10 (28 votes)

Recent Categories: Mat, Thom, Moiraine, and the Tower of Ghenjei

TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 42 - Before the Arrow

"He had no idea why he had not simply ignored them. Except that his step was lighter and he felt full of vinegar. No wonder, really, leaving tomorrow at last. The dice seemed to be spinning in his head, and there was no knowing what pips would show when they landed."

Note here that the dice are purely metaphorical. Mat is not actually hearing dice. He says they seemed to be spinning in his head. He is feeling the same feeling he feels when he is rolling dice in a cup. Chance is being altered, there is going to be a metaphoric "toss of the dice" and the results are going to be important, and decided on one event. Very similar to dicing.

TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 44 - The Lesser Sadness

"That should bring the Shaido in right enough, especially if Couladin was leading. If Couladin really was leading, if he thought Rand was with the pikes, if the pikes could hold until the horse arrived. . . A lot of ifs. Mat could hear those dice rolling in his head again. This was the biggest gamble he had ever taken in his life. He wondered how long it was until nightfall; a man should be able to make his way out in the night. He wished those dice would get out of his head, or else fall so he knew what they showed. Scowling into the rain, he booted Pips on down the hillside."

Here the dice are still pretty metaphorical, but they are becoming more real. Mat is starting to take his metaphor or dice rolling in his head, and transpond it to reality. Instead of just having the same feeling as he gets when dice are rolling in the cup, he is starting to actually hear the sounds of dice rolling in his head.

Now, I dont have my books one me [thats a lie, im just too lazy to look up a quote right now and you all know this anyways] but later on when Mat hears the dice, they are solid, they are almost physical, and they cause definate feeling. He feels like his skull is being used as a dice cup.

Now, what have we seen in the way of talents?

Siuan Sanche sees a glow around Ta'veren.

Min sees visions.

Hurin smells violence.

Male channelers feel an itch when females channel.

Now, the Talents are metaphysical. There is not actually light bouncing off solid objects around people that reflects into Mins eyes and is transmitted throught the ocular nerve into her brain and experianced as images. Ta'veren do not actually emit light that Siuan sees. Violence does not actually leave a smell that Hurins nose is magicly able to pick up on, and Saidar does not stimulate the nerves on the forearms of male channelers causing them to itch. These talents are all a sort of Sixth Sense that is experianced as one of the five senses sort of modified to take in information it could not have possibly obtained naturally.

Now, we have instances of Talents being manifested as sight, and smell and a sensation. Why not hearing? Why not, instead of a smell, or visions, or a sensation, you hear something? Like a fog horn. Or a beep. Or maybe... dice in your head?

Here is my theory:

The Dice in Mats head are a Talent.

The dice in Mats head are sort of like the glow that Siuan Sanche sees around Ta'veren, or Mins visions. The Dice are merely a represantation of Mats ability to sense his own Ta'verenness working. Every time Mat has heard the dice, there has been something significant in regards to the pattern happening. He meets Tuon. Battles. Dicing.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2005-11-02

I still believe there is merit in the idea that the Finns are involved in the Dice. However, I like this idea. Mat can sense his Ta'vereness. A bit more development would have been good, Anubis. But, since we have some information already being discussed in the other Mat theory, it makes it easier for us to compare quotes from both. So, your explanation is that Mat's Talent has become more refined over time, which is why there are growing differences from the first time the dice role. It might help if you could explain a variety of moments he hears it and what his Ta'vereness might have done to help...such as killing Couladin, etc.

2

a dragonburned fool: 2005-11-02

Very good idea, Anubis: sensing of the own Web of Destiny in action. Tel'maral'allein is actually re-arrangement of the Pattern. The Pattern seems not allways to be re-arranged with the same intensity - sometimes there are more important events, sometimes less important ones. The ta'veren is according to it not in the same degree active all the time. But when it is re-arranged, the Pattern itself must be on a verge about what course will it take - the one that it would take without the ta'veren and the one forced by the ta'veren. It must be a tension and this tension may be sensed somehow. I don't think the Talent channelers have to see ta'veren is detecting exactly the same. Nicola is sensing Mat in time when he IIRC doesn't her the dice. A battle is a situation when many lives are on the verge, and if the life of a ta'veren is also on a verge, it would open very different futures for the rest of the world - so the tel'maral'alein will be more active. But the cases when Mat's dice stopped are the best here - Mat is to make an important action and depending of the decision different futures open. Elayne and Nynaeve convince Mat to come in the palace (and meet Tylin) and his future is already determined, the tension is solved and Mat senses it as the dice stopping.

3

Bob the Ogier Builder: 2005-11-02

Isn't everybody way off base about this? I mean, the dice started rolling around in Mat's head way before he ever went to Finnland (I seem to remember them when he escaped Tar Valon via ship after having the Shaidar Logoth knife removed, the same night the assassins tried to kill him and Thom Merillin on the ship headed for Caemlyn).

I think you're right, Anubis - this is something inborn, a Talent and not some far-fetched Snakes and Foxes plot.

4

Tristin: 2005-11-02

The only thing I can think of against this theory is that talents usually work referring to other people, I can't think of any time when we see a talent that one can see that actually works upon the person with the talent. This is true of Min's visions, Hurin's smell, Siuan isn't taveren so it doesn't apply...

Even Perrin's talent the wolfbrother thing...if that can be called a talent, is mostly directed towards others, i.e., he can't smell himself and what not (unless he is in a closed room or something).

It seems that if Matt had a talent it would be for feeling shifts in the pattern or being able to predict that they were coming up or something. But that would apply not only to his own destiny but to others as well and he has never (to my knowledge) felt the dice to a shift in the pattern that didn't involve him or other taveren, i.e., Perrin and Rand.

I suppose this *could* be a Talent that only works regarding oneself but it seems a bit of a stretch.

5

Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-02

Anubis,

Really like this theory! Excellent idea.

It would be sort of like Min's talent if you think about it. Min sees parts of the Pattern and Mat knows when something big will happen in the pattern due to the dice.

6

Shock Lance: 2005-11-02

I really like the idea that Mat's Dice are a talent and not from the Finn's or anyone else (Lanfear). But also like Perrin who is a Wolfbrother and the wolves senced this and in a sence honed his talent. Just as Rand could always Channel but needed teaching, could the Finn have senced Mat's Talent and enhanced it somehow? Sorry really should put this in a Theory of my own but thought it might bring some discussion here.

7

WinespringBrother: 2005-11-02

This is one of the best theories I've seen in a while. It explains why the Aelfinn called Mat "Gambler" (at least partially anyway). He is the master of chance, and can read the pattern in a limited way to control the outcome to his favor.

And he may have loaded the dice in his favor, by visiting the Aelfinn and Eelfinn as well, with their answers and gifts.

8

Astra-al: 2005-11-02

Tristin-

You forgot dreaming and fortelling. Now there haven't been any cases of fortellings regarding the forteller's future, but dreamers do have dreams about their own futures, so it could be something like that only more directly tied to him than anyone. *shrugs*

I like the theory Anubis. It makes sense.

9

Tristin: 2005-11-03

no i still don't like it. dreaming is still about other people, we have know evidence that Talents work on only the person with the Talent. Even with dreaming as a partial exception, because a true dream can sometimes show the dreamer interacting with others. If Matt's ability were a talent it seems he would feel shifts in the pattern as caused by other Taveren and what not.

10

Lauric: 2005-11-03

Really good theory Anubis, you've got my vote! I never wanted to accept the Finn being the source of the Dice (especially after KoD) and Lanfear being the source was simply laughable. The Battles were a gift from the Finn, so this would be his inborn Talent like Rand's channeling and Perrin's Wolfbrother...ness... (Don't really know a good/actual name for it, but I consider that a talent)

11

therobotbadger: 2005-11-03

**Note here that the dice are purely metaphorical. Mat is not actually hearing dice.**

**Here the dice are still pretty metaphorical, but they are becoming more real. Mat is starting to take his metaphor or dice rolling in his head, and transpond it to reality. **

Says who? On what basis can you say that at one point the dice are metaphorical and at another they are some sort of actual sensation (albeit a metaphysically caused sensation)?

Note that in your quote from tFoH, Mat says he can hear the dice "again." He obviously directly associates these dice in his head now with dice in his head from previous times. He doesn't note any distinction. These dice that you say are "still pretty metaphorical" are the same dice to Mat as the ones you say are "purely metaphorical."

I do think you've got a good idea about the dice being a Talent. They do allow Mat to be aware of a part of the Pattern he normally would not: namely events dangerous or significant to him. This same general function of seeing parts of the Pattern physically obscured is performed by the other Talents you've listed: seeing ta'veren, sniffing, and Min's visions. I would also add Foretelling to that list, myself. I'm not so sure about the channeling awarenesses.

However, assuming the argument that the dice are a Talent is true, I think the argument about them being metaphorical is strange. Were the visions Min saw as a child merely "metaphorical visions"? No, they were real from the time they started. Did Hurin ever smell "metaphorical violence?" No, he started smelling violence and he still smells violence. I think, in the same way, Mat started out in tDR hearing and feeling dice and still hears and feels dice. When it started he may not have understood the importance of it and may have treated it like some sort of excitement from a night of winning at dice, leading to the confusion of interpretation. However, none of the other Talents evolved, and I think if Mat's dice are a Talent they haven't either.

12

Zorpisuttle: 2005-11-03

While I always thought that Mat's Talent was his luck, because his luck seems different from ordinary ta'verenness, the Dice being another Talent does sound more plausible than my *Finn conspiracy theory.

**The Dice are merely a represantation of Mats ability to sense his own Ta'verenness working.**

Are you saying that the dice are dependent upon being ta'veren, sort of like the ability to see ta'veren is something only channelers can do? (According to RJ's blog, only channelers can see ta'veren and Ogier can't channel, although that begs the question of why Alar the Ogier could sense Rand's ta'veren-ness.)

On the other hand,

**If Matt's ability were a talent it seems he would feel shifts in the pattern as caused by other Taveren and what not.**

It does seem a bit odd that his Talent would have such a narrow focus, but maybe it's just that no other ta'veren have been "on his radar" in a while, or if they were, it was all connected anyway in some sort of huge mesh of ta'veren choices. It is called a "web of destiny" after all.

13

solomonrex: 2005-11-03

To clarify, I've looked into this a lot and the dice didn't get into his head until after the dagger healing and visitation from Lanfear, hence the two main theories about his luck.

I like this too, kind of. It may have something to do with the 'finn, however, and the fact that RJ hasn't described it as a 'gift' is a really big knock. He's made the other 'gifts' pretty clear, and I always argue that this isn't the Fantasy X-men - not everyone has a 'gift' and ta'veren doesn't equal a superpower for 'luck.'

14

haertchen: 2005-11-03

Tristin: "dreaming is still about other people"

All we would need to do to falsify this is get a single counter-example. As my prime couter-example, I propose Egwene's dream near the end of CoT, predicting that she was soon going to be in a serious predicament, and something about the Seanchen was going to get her out of it. Other examples include her head being on a chopping block, and someone coming to rescue her, etc. Dreaming clearly senses the pattern, and it can easily involve the dreamer. I see no reason Matt's dice can't be a Talent.

15

Lauric: 2005-11-03

**I like this too, kind of. It may have something to do with the 'finn, however, and the fact that RJ hasn't described it as a 'gift' is a really big knock. He's made the other 'gifts' pretty clear, and I always argue that this isn't the Fantasy X-men - not everyone has a 'gift' and ta'veren doesn't equal a superpower for 'luck**

Ok Soloman, I can see that as well, however, one of RJ's big things is balance. In a 3 part "piece" as our Ta'veren are, they would need to be balanced. They can all general an army, as we've seen, Mat happens to be best at it but I wouldn't call it a balance. The dice 'Talent' would be though, when he realizes what they are.

As for RJ not calling them a Gift, well, it's obvious he doesn't want us to know exactly what they are at this point. Second, it's just like Mat to call it a curse... "I'm no bloody hero!" but he...is...in fact..a hero.

It fits his character to look at it in a bad light because he doesn't understand/want it.

16

Tristin: 2005-11-03

no. dreaming involves the dreamer occasionally but egwene doesn't dream only about herself and Min doesn't see visions which only pertain to her. my question is how could a talent pertain only to the person with the talent, especially if that supposed talent is to sense shifts in the pattern due to taverenness

17

therobotbadger: 2005-11-04

Tristin:

Better question, why wouldn't it? Is there any compelling reason why Mat could NOT have a Talent pertaining to only himself?

True, all the Talents we've seen before have involved either others or others and the self. But there doesn't seem to really be any organization to it. Sure, Min can't see visions ON herself, but she can see visions involving herself. A Foreteller could more than likely Foretell something about herself (interesting note, we haven't seen any male Foretellers... yet). A Dreamer can Dream about herself. Whether it involves others or not seems to be irrelevant to most Talents. Sure, it may, or it may not.

I don't see why it's such a stretch for you to believe that a Talent could be self-affecting.

18

JakOShadows: 2005-11-04

I agree that the dice are some form of talent. At first, he doesn't sense them very much, but after a certain amount of time he becomes more aware. And nice catch Lauric, because he doesn't like having talents that make him a better hero. There just doesn't seem to be much evidence to support this. And to be honest, I don't know where to look. But I do think any other explanation is too far fetched. And he does seem to rely on luck as much as anything, so he makes good use of it.

19

mako0424: 2005-11-04

Tristan, i think your being a little narrow in your eprceived understanding of what a Talent entails. It would seem the other way around, a Talent is meant to be individualistic for that very reason, to benefit one self.

although luckily, alot of Talents have more uises, ie. healing, Dreaming, and seeing auras or violence, but its also how you use it. If Hurin only ever smelled violence and ran away from it to protect himself, would this be for other people, not really, it is a survival thing.

And i think Mat's dice in his head, let him know something curcial is happening and his luck, and ta'verne twisting of chance will usually if not always, pull it in his favor. right?

well to turn your thing back around Trist, would the Pattern maybe not grant this Talent, because being Ta'veren and giving him good luck and benefical situations almost always benefits everyone around him in huge numbers, including his Talent will most likely lead up to and help at the LB, and also let him win, thus saving the world...seems like his Talent maybe be individualized but only so that everyone else could beenfit from it without ever realizing, ie, still within the Pattern.

We know Rand was te Dragon, Perrin became a Wolfbrother, and Mat got this huge Talent. seems the Pattern or maybe the Creator set up our three heroes to have these advantages for themselves and the World to use in the Last Battle.

In conclusion, i agree that this is an inborn Talent, made stronger by Mat's maturing, and situations like the dagger healing, and the trip to the finns, but also the closer he gets to the LB and what not, they all get stronger and more important.

Hurin, Perrin, Egwene, and Mat's Talents are all thought lost or ancient, and are all brought back near the Last Battle, for the good of the people, and these have no direct relationships to channeling.

20

terez: 2005-11-04

As more evidence that Mat's luck is a Talent almost, and perhaps purely, all his own, he "hones" his own talent merely by taking chances, and making wagers. Mat made a wager with Gaebril in Caemlyn. This was, of course, right after his luck went crazy in Tar Valon. The crux of the wager, in Mat's mind, was Comar, because Comar was the only real threat to the girls that Mat was aware of. I think the encounter with Comar is crucial to analizing Mat's particular talent. First, there was the faliure of the methodical search for him, and then the true tactic:

TITLE: The Dragon Reborn CHAPTER 49, "A Storm in Tear"

"Boy," Thom muttered, "if we don't go back to The White Crescent, I am going to go to sleep here in the rain." He stopped to cough. "Do you realize you've marched right past three inns? Light, I am so tired I can't think. do you have a scheme of where to go that you have not told me?"

Mat stared blearily up the street at a tall man in a cloak hurrying around a corner. Light, I am tired. (Mat thought) Rand is five hundred leagues from here, playing at being the bloody Dragon. "What? Three inns?" they were standing almost in front of another, the Golden Cup according to the sign creaking in the wind. It looked nothing like a dice cup, but he decided to give it a try anyway. "One more, Thom. If we don't find them here, we'll go back and go to bed." Bed sounded better than a dice game with a hundred gold marks riding on the toss, but he made himself go in."

So, Mat gave in to delirium for a minute or two, and the random gamble he had made in the first place took over his chances, bringing him from a search for a needle in a haystack to a direct hit.

Next, Mat discovers that Comar is using weighted dice. There is nothing metaphorical about the fact that Comar's dice are weighted.

"Weighted dice," Thom said, then coughed. "When he wants to be sure of winning, he uses the dice that always show the same face. He is smart enough not to have nade it the highest toss - folk become suspicious if you always throw the king" - he raised an eyebrow at Mat - "just one that's all but impossible to beat, but he cannot change that they always show the same face."

Thom then demonstrated how to switch two sets of dice without being seen. He was VERY nervous about Mat's insistence he could expose Comar. But Mat didn't allow Comar to switch the dice.

He reached for the dice, but Mat scooped them up ahead of him. Comar glared, but let him have the cup. If both tosses were the same, they would throw again until one man won. mat smiled as he rattled the dice. He did not mean to give Comar a chance to change them. If they threw the same toss three or four times in a row - exactly the same, every time - even these Defenders would listen. The whole common room would see; they would have to back his word.

He spilled the dice onto the tabletop. They bounced oddly. He felt - something - shifting. It was as if his luck had gone wild. The room seemed to be writhing around him, tugging at the dice with threads. for some reason he wanted to look at the door, but he kept his eyes on the dice. They came to rest. Five crowns. Comar's eyes looked ready to pop out of his head.

"You lose," Mat said softly. If his luck was in to this extent, perhaps it was time to push it. A voice in the back of his head told him to think, but he was too tired to listen. "I think your luck is about used up, Comar. If you've harmed those girls, it's all gone."

The actual shifting of the weight of the dice goes a lot further than the normal lucky toss for Mat. More than a normal ratio manipulation, Mat's luck actually changed the ~physical~ makeup of something.

And then - The Dice, rolling in his head on the way into the Stone.

Mat is not a gambler, but The Gambler. As long as the odds are inherently random, he makes his own odds.

21

therobotbadger: 2005-11-05

I don't see how that quote augments the idea that his dice are a Talent. The quote only talks about his luck working for him. Not where it came from or how it works (besides that it can work on a physical level). Maybe I just don't understand what your argument is, so could you please clarify? How does this quote indicate that Mat's mental dice are a Talent? Not his luck, mind you, the dice.

22

Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-05

I think that Mat's luck has mostly to due with his being ta'veren. Its more the dice in Mat's head being the Talent.

Also, why would the Aelfinn/Eelfinn put these dice into his head? What would be their reasoning for doing that?

It seems to me much more likely that the dice are a Talent.

23

deep thought: 2005-11-05

Well Anubis, I must say that I quite like the idea that Mat's dice are a Talent. I suppose that it is a fairly harmless enough statement; I mean RJ seems to be pretty ambiguous as to the definition of what a Talent actually is. Of course we have an idea of what people with Talents can do (e.g. sniff out evil, see peoples auras etc.) but this doesn't give any definitive idea as to what may be considered a Talent. Is channelling a Talent? Is communicating with wolves a Talent?

The Talents we know about have more obvious mechanisms and results. At the end of the day what Mat can do has no clear benefit to him that I can see. What I mean here is that he has always known when something major was going to occur but he never gained any knowledge about which choice he should make and therefore do anything about it (if someone can prove me wrong here please do so), to take the right path (so to speak). So if is a Talent then this begs the question: What can it be used for? To this question I have no answer. What is clear this 'dice' mechanism gives RJ an easy way of telling us when something monumental occurs (at least in Mat's story). It is also clear that his Talent (if that's what it truely is) is developing in complexity as you seem to have indicated in your theory: from KoD we know that now Mat is hearing 'set's' of dice tumbling in his head indicating the requirement for many things to happen before the correct path is taken.

All in all, I feel that this is a nice theory and will most likely turn out to be the case. But whatever you call the dice in Mats head I don't really see what difference it really makes (unless of course it has some use in book 12), "a rose by any other name...".

Maybe RJ will look at this site, see your theory and think: 'yeah, that's what it is' and use the idea. Unlikely, but who knows??

24

Anubis: 2005-11-05

**A bit more development would have been good, Anubis.**

Looking around I see this has taken a life of its own... its funny, development comes after my theories, not before..

25

JakOShadows: 2005-11-06

Actually, I do think Mat has used the dice talent as best he could. Because he always knows when the dice stop most of the time. Then when he hears the dice stop, he know what moment to think about and that his decision at that moment is what's affecting things. Whereas Rand and Perrin have no clue what decision or when is affecting their course. So knowing is the first step to acting on it, and with the dice he knows when and where the pivotal moments are.

26

deep thought: 2005-11-08

JakO, what you say may be true about Mat trying to use the knowledge of the dice the best he could, however although he may know when he is to make an important decision the dice do not help him make the right one. He does that pretty much on his own (with the help of his extraordinary luck). Maybe that will change in the final book and they will become more helpful, but at the moment it looks more like a way of informing the reader when some important decision has just been made.

Anyway, despite this I think it is fairly unimportant whether we call Mats dice a Talent since we know what it is they do anyway. Calling it a Talent is simply a way of saying that it is not something the finns put there (or anybody else for that matter). In other words there is no hidden plot to draw Mat into a trap using the dice which, lets face it, seems unlikely. Rather, the dice seem to be something which are inextricably related to his luck; every decision he makes is a gamble, and of course nobody knows where he got his luck. It seemed to appear just after Mat had his link to the Shadar Logoth knife severed and he himself thinks that the luck might be some sort of after effect of carrying it (I am not sure on this, though). Whatever the case both his luck and the dice (in however a primative a form) appeared before he met the finns, so it is fairly safe to say they had nothing to do with it.

27

Khazhul: 2005-11-08

I took it as the dice stopped when the pivotal moment just happened not that it was about to happen. I'll have to reread those parts and see if there was a decision made after the dice stopped. My interpretation was Mat knew something was going to happen soon and when that happened he would make less decisions on logic and more on chance, trusting to his luck. Also, after the moment passed he knows exactly what was a pivotal moment in his life and could base future decisions off of that when luck wasn't rolling in his head.

28

Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-09

Yes, Khazul, it seemed to me too that the dice stopped the moment a pivotal occasion occurred. There starting was usually from a couple days before the event to maybe a week or two, so it let Mat know that something big and important is coming - and as he interprets it, something that will probably come close to killing him.

29

lurk: 2005-11-10

The dice stop after the decision is made. but Mat always wonders why the bloody dice stopped. The onluy hing he knows is that the rolling dice mean that something big is going to happen to him but he never knows what it is. So the only use mat makes of the dice is be very aware of them and knowing something is going to happen to him. It makes him more alert although he does't know what to look for.

30

High Lord Calvin: 2005-11-11

I think it likely you're right Anubis.

However, the significant question here seems to be: is it something inherent in Mat like the Old Blood, or something he picked up somewhere that he might lose? I believe it is Mat's own luck. He has said (I forget where) that he was, "always lucky."

I think it was enhanced by his experiences, sure, like any other talent it can be cultivated or not. If you're good at drawing, but you never draw, you'll still be able to whip up a good sketch spur of the minute. But if you are constantly drawing, you'll be able to do detailed, intricate, complex stuff. Like Mat.

I also think that Mat is luckier than normal folk most of the time, but when the dice are rolling in his head, that's his cue that Chance went on vacation and Fate stepped in as his temporary guardian angel, physically warping the universe. If he did not have experience with it, he would not know whether he could rely upon it. Until now, Mat has been reluctant to really trust anything he could not see. I think soon, he's going to take a really big risk *because* the dice are spinning in his head.

31

Tristin: 2005-11-12

I don't think we can tie Matt's luck to this supposed talent.

Matt's luck is ta'verenness. When things go write for him it is because he is a ta'veren. Matt wasn't always lucky until he became a ta'veren. There is an incident in TWOTW where he talks about loosing whilst dicing with a Merchant's guard. Moreover his luck does mature as his ta'verenness begins to turn the pattern around him. This isn't a gift mature, the process is his becoming ta'veren, the same kind of thing happened with Perrin and Rand. Becoming the Dragon and the WolfKing didn't happen overnight, similiarly becoming the Gambler developed...each is their ta'verenness manifesting itself differently...we see the pattern shift around each of them in different ways.

The dice in Matt's head are metaphorical. It's fine to say that is when he feels the pattern shift around him, that doesn't make it a gift. I would say that Rand and Perrin can feel the same thing happening or see it happening but they don't think of it as dice because they are not gamblers.

The problem with saying it is a talent is that there are usually several or lots of people with the same talent. Why doesn't anyone else have the "dice" talent. If it is a talent for just the soul of the Gambler, then is it still a talent? Even those with the rarest talents, like Hurin and Min, have been told of others who once had their gift.

Moreover as I have said, why would Matt only feel the pattern shift around him? He's been around Rand enough to feel the dice as related to him if it were really a talent.

Matt's dice are metaphorical. He feels a shift in the pattern, or feels his luck about to take off and as a result names them dice.

32

Bayle: 2005-11-15

Tristan:

"Matt's luck is ta'verenness. When things go write for him it is because he is a ta'veren. Matt wasn't always lucky until he became a ta'veren. There is an incident in TWOTW where he talks about loosing whilst dicing with a Merchant's guard. Moreover his luck does mature as his ta'verenness begins to turn the pattern around him. This isn't a gift mature, the process is his becoming ta'veren, the same kind of thing happened with Perrin and Rand. Becoming the Dragon and the WolfKing didn't happen overnight, similiarly becoming the Gambler developed...each is their ta'verenness manifesting itself differently...we see the pattern shift around each of them in different ways."

Mat's luck is more than Ta'verenness, I think. And the Dice are more than just his being ta'veren as well. My primary evidence for this is that the Dice are not always going off for hist simple ta'veren pattern shifting. And in fact, Ta'veren influence can't really be called luck anyway, it is much more, as Moiraine said one, playing with chance, causing things that normally wouldn't happen to happen. Ta'veren cause just as many bad things to befall as good. no still born babies... many many many weddings, rolling out of bed and breaking your neck...

Mat's Dice however are something above and beyond this. They don't rattle/stop for his simple ta'veren shifting. This is seen while his Ta'verenness is at work with the Sea Folk in Ebou Dar after first meeting the gholam... The dice continue to rumble, and stop only when the house falls on him as the seanchan attack the harbor.

Also, you say mat wasn't lucky until he became Ta'veren. Well I'll have to side with Callendor on this one, he doesn't BECOME ta'veren, nor do Rand nor Perrin. They simply ARE ta'veren. Their very existance is ta'veren, spun out from birth. Their GIFTS mature, wolf brother, channelling, dice, but not their ta'veren'ness, that's a constant.

At least, that's the way I see it.

33

El Bogarto: 2005-11-16

Bayle -

People do just become Ta'veren.

RJ in his Q&A section of Glimmers stated that:

One becomes ta'veren according to the needs of the Wheel. No one is born ta'veren. Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared.

34

Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-16

I agree that Mat's luck is more than ta'verenness but I do believe that Ta'veren mature. Imagine a ta'veren that is a baby - I just don't see that happening. I thought there was something that RJ said about that but I can't remember...

35

Bayle: 2005-11-17

Ok, I am sorry about my spun from birth comment, I suppose that makes perfect sense. And Ta'veren do mature, you're correct there too... My last paragraph was sorta bunk. I mean we see all three ta'veren now able to see each other just thinking each other's names, the colors swirling and what not.

Though I will say Rand being found by Tam, and being born on the slopes, etc, brough to the two rivers, and two other boys being born within days of him might signify an early ta'veren-ish event...

No back to the subject at hand,

What do you all think about the maturing of the Dice in his head? Since KoD he has begun to distinguish between the different sets of dice, or different coming troubles, and also is able to tell their "size" by the intensity of the rumble. What do you think he will be able to do with this? Again my guess is that he will intuitively know when the stakes are greatest and when to take the biggest risks, but that is only a guess...

36

Callandor: 2005-11-18

** My primary evidence for this is that the Dice are not always going off for hist simple ta'veren pattern shifting. And in fact, Ta'veren influence can't really be called luck anyway, it is much more, as Moiraine said one, playing with chance, causing things that normally wouldn't happen to happen. Ta'veren cause just as many bad things to befall as good. no still born babies... many many many weddings, rolling out of bed and breaking your neck...**

Yes, that's luck, man. Why is Rand and Lews Therin both refered to by the Forsaken as lucky to be alive? Simple answer: they were both ta'veren.

**They don't rattle/stop for his simple ta'veren shifting. This is seen while his Ta'verenness is at work with the Sea Folk in Ebou Dar after first meeting the gholam... The dice continue to rumble, and stop only when the house falls on him as the seanchan attack the harbor.**

It's really hard for you to just say it isn't Pattern events that are the cause of the dice.

After all, if you look at every single event, they pretty much are on a set up to the events that brought him to marry Tuon (which we know was Foretold and pre-planned). Sure, there are more than likely other events and they won't simply "stop" now that he's married -- but I can't see anyway to just shrug off them being ta'veren events.

**Also, you say mat wasn't lucky until he became Ta'veren. Well I'll have to side with Callendor on this one, he doesn't BECOME ta'veren, nor do Rand nor Perrin. They simply ARE ta'veren. Their very existance is ta'veren, spun out from birth. Their GIFTS mature, wolf brother, channelling, dice, but not their ta'veren'ness, that's a constant.**

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that once a person is ta'veren, they don't flicker on and off for Pattern events and non-Pattern events. They stay ta'veren constant until the alterations the Wheel requires are done or they die. But, they're not born ta'veren -- I never said that.

37

Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-22

*** Yes, that's luck, man. Why is Rand and Lews Therin both refered to by the Forsaken as lucky to be alive? Simple answer: they were both ta'veren. ***

Yes some of it can be called luck, but luck is only really when good and unlikely things happen for you. Most of the stuff that happens is not luck but the suspension of chance.

I wouldn't call falling out of bed and breaking my neck luck and neither would Rand if his ta'verennes caused it.

38

Anubis: 2005-11-25

**Most of the stuff that happens is not luck but the suspension of chance.**

What is "Luck" if not a favorable suspension of chance?

Sure, all the "lucky" things that happen to Rand and Mat and Perrin may not be favorable, but they are all the pattern guiding them toward winning the last battle.

Luck is usually viewed as a favorable thing, but there is such thing as bad luck. They would both, however, be luck.

39

primaris: 2005-11-25

The dice started soon after his link with the knife was severed. This makes perfect sense if it is a talent. Perrin only learnt he was a Wolfbrother when he met another WB (Elyas) - something monumental. Channelling, another form of talent (in my opinion) often starts in a key moment of their lives: e.g.

For Nynaeve it started when Egwene was dying.

For Rand: At the Eye of the World, near a pool of pure Saidin, and when he left his home for the first time (healing Bela)

also Min started at the same age many women start channelling.

If the same rules apply for when talents (including channelling) manifest themselves for the various sexes, usually after a main event then it is safe to say that the dice are a talent.

40

Callandor: 2005-11-25

**Yes some of it can be called luck, but luck is only really when good and unlikely things happen for you. Most of the stuff that happens is not luck but the suspension of chance.

I wouldn't call falling out of bed and breaking my neck luck and neither would Rand if his ta'verennes caused it.**

What does it mean to be ta'veren? It's very simple:

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 35 - Into the Woods

"Balance," Min broke in hastily. Rand's face was so dark, he looked ready to burst. Maybe he had been right to come after all. Certainly there was no point letting him throw this meeting away in a tantrum. She gave no one a chance to speak. "There is always a balance of good against bad. That's how the Pattern works. Even he doesn't change that. As night balances day, good balances harm. Since he came, there hasn't been a single stillbirth in the city, not one child born deformed. There are more marriages some days than used to be in a week, and for every man who chokes to death on a feather, a woman tumbles head over heels down three flights of stairs and, instead of breaking her neck, stands up without a bruise. Name the evil, and you can point to the good. The turning of the Wheel requires balance, and he only increases the chances of what might have happened anyway in nature." Suddenly she colored, realizing they were both looking at her. Staring, more like.**

Some of it can be called luck? No, it is luck -- saying "some" of it is luck is being silly and ignoring what is flatly presented.

41

Anubis: 2005-11-25

Lets put it this way. The way the pattern makes Ta'Veren lucky is by making people it doesnt like, unlucky. Its not an addition of luck, more like a shifting of it. There is still balance.

42

lurk: 2005-11-26

Callandor,

doesn't your qoute from Min plainly say Tavereness promotes chance and the pattern choses the outcome to be favourable to you or not. So around a taveren chance is more present but the web still requires balance so bad luck and good luck are increased in an equal amount.

Actually take a sword fight for example, if chance is promoted the chance of one of the opponents to slip or trip is increased. This is bad luck for the one tripping and getting killed but good luck for the one doing the killing.

In relation to this topic I believe that Mat is just plain lucky, maybe even so to be called a talent. This means that in normal life he has more good luck than bad luck. Now we have the fact that he is taveren. so he promotes chance around him. Because he is more lucky than others (probably by a fair margin) he seems luckier than ever (and he actually is, more good luck is happening to him than bad luck) The only thing he needs for his luck to flourish is as much randomness as he can get. That is why he is more lucky with dice than with cards.

In another thread I said that because the pattern is more in chaos than ever (partly because of demandreds doing, let the lord of chaos rule) the influence of taveren is greater (the pattern needs them to bring back order). This would mean that chance is promoted even stronger, making mat even luckier.

Btw, Demandred is a gambler too, I couldn't find a quote saying he is lucky but usually gamblers exist because they are lucky. My guess is that Demandred is lucky too. Interesting thought would be nice if we learn more from it in book 12 :)

43

Bayle: 2005-11-28

Yes, being Ta'veren is suspension of chance, and as Min says quoting Fel's work, it is a "balance" to the good and evil, the good luck and the bad luck. But being Ta'veren is all luck, as you say.

I contend that Mat is different in that his luck is primarily and predominantly good. He is truly Lucky and not "Unlucky" Yes, he has won at dice when the pattern needed him to, but he has also uncannily won at dice/cards/whatever when the pattern DIDN'T need to. Sure he loses sometimes, but not so often that it even matters in the long run. Mat is different in that when chance is suspended, it is almost always good luck for him that occurs, not simply a balance of good and bad things happening.

44

Anubis: 2005-11-29

In all fairness, plenty of bad things have happened to Mat.

He had a house fall on him, the whole trollocs attacking the Two Rivers thing, been in more battles then he can count, was hung, and has a Gholam out to kill him.

His "luck" is mostly just keeping him alive.

45

JakOShadows: 2005-11-29

And Bayle, if you remember correctly, he needed all that coin he won from dicing to pay for the Band and etc. You notice in KoD that he doesn't need to win so he doesn't, granted it was considered good luck at the moment too, but at other times it seems like he won even when it was that dangerous. So there is some connection to need.

46

Zarul Argia: 2005-12-01

I really like this theory. It does seem plausible that the dice are indeed a talent and not the 'finns doing. However, whether this is a talent or not, I don't beleive that Mat's luck is supposed to be this good but that it is amplified by his Ta'veren-ness.

47

Callandor: 2005-12-01

**doesn't your qoute from Min plainly say Tavereness promotes chance and the pattern choses the outcome to be favourable to you or not. So around a taveren chance is more present but the web still requires balance so bad luck and good luck are increased in an equal amount.**

Which is exactly what I am saying. Lord of the Dawn is saying that luck is only good things -- it's not. There's good luck and bad luck; ta'veren increase the chance of both to promote balance.

**In relation to this topic I believe that Mat is just plain lucky, maybe even so to be called a talent.**

IT'S NOT A TALENT. IT'S SIMPLY BEING A TA'VEREN.

**Because he is more lucky than others (probably by a fair margin) he seems luckier than ever (and he actually is, more good luck is happening to him than bad luck) The only thing he needs for his luck to flourish is as much randomness as he can get. That is why he is more lucky with dice than with cards.**

1. He's not "luckier" than everyone -- Rand has similar luck with dice and cards around him.

2. Again, look at Min's quote. Ta'veren just promote balance. Look for the good of Mat's luck, and you can point to the bad.

**Btw, Demandred is a gambler too, I couldn't find a quote saying he is lucky but usually gamblers exist because they are lucky. My guess is that Demandred is lucky too. Interesting thought would be nice if we learn more from it in book 12 :)**

Not really. Gamblers gamble because they enjoy it mostly. Mat liked to gamble before he had his ta'veren luck. Demandred is a general, and is willing to take risks to get the end result. Lucky? Sure he probably feels he's lucky sometimes -- but being a gambler doesn't mean that you're lucky all the time.

**I contend that Mat is different in that his luck is primarily and predominantly good.**

Again, point to the good, and you can point to the bad.

**Yes, he has won at dice when the pattern needed him to, but he has also uncannily won at dice/cards/whatever when the pattern DIDN'T need to.**

Example?

**Mat is different in that when chance is suspended, it is almost always good luck for him that occurs, not simply a balance of good and bad things happening.**

You mean like Mat rolling nothing by sixes when he needs to? You mean the same thing that happened around Rand?

**You notice in KoD that he doesn't need to win so he doesn't, granted it was considered good luck at the moment too, but at other times it seems like he won even when it was that dangerous.**

More importantly in Knife of Dreams, Mat has an incident where he needs to lose -- and he does. Interesting that at two instances he needed to win at one, and needed to lose at another. Both cases the needed result happened. How can this not be seen as ta'vereness?

48

kyeo138: 2005-12-07

I like this theory.

From the Dragon Reborn: Chapter 30,

"He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow, his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. His mother had always seemed to know what he was up to, and Nynaeve able to see through whatever defenses he put up. But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth."

I think that he had a talent that was enhanced by the Shadar Logoth experience, and then perhaps further enhanced by the 'finns. Maybe that's why he can sense the dice in his head.

Also, in New Spring, the prologue:

"It did make a terrible sense. Men who could channel seldom knew what they were doing, at least in the beginning. At first, they often just seemed to be lucky. Events favored them, and frequently, like the blacksmith, they rose to prominence with unexpected suddenness. Siuan was right. The Black Ajah had begun a slaughter."

They were killing 'lucky' people in the off-chance that they were male channelers. Some of them could've possessed this luck talent.

49

FraKcture: 2005-12-08

"**I contend that Mat is different in that his luck is primarily and predominantly good.**

Again, point to the good, and you can point to the bad."

Come on, Cal. If this were true, how did Mat make all that money? How did he get so rich if he loses as much as he wins?

When it comes to Mat's tavereness and how it affects chance around him, I agree that there is as much bad as good. But when it comes to Mat's luck, I contend that Mat is luckier than he is unlucky.

ACOS, chapter 12, A Morning of Victory, Gareth Bryne speaking:

"The tale is, Shen an Calhar never loses, whatever the odds."

Sounds to me like Mat usually beats the odds.

"More importantly in Knife of Dreams, Mat has an incident where he needs to lose -- and he does. Interesting that at two instances he needed to win at one, and needed to lose at another. Both cases the needed result happened. How can this not be seen as ta'vereness?"

Couldn't agree with you more.

So there are (at least) 2 effects of being taveren. There's the primary effect of making sure the person accomplishes what the pattern needs him/her to do. I would suggest that this is almost always "good". (Unless you want to start debating whether or not there are "bad" taveren.) And then there's the secondary effect of bending chance around others. This is where there is as much bad as there is good.

The dice in Mat's head are something that nobody else seems to have. Perrin and Rand never describe dice in their heads the way Mat does. So I think based on that you have to say they are something more than simply being taveren. But on the other hand, it could be that this is a personality trait of Mat. Perhaps it's a feeling that all taveren get and Mat, because he likes to gamble, calls the feeling "the dice in his head". And maybe Rand and Perrin just never mentally describe this feeling in their POV. But I think that's unlikely. I don't recall the other 2 having a feeling that could be the same as what Mat feels. (Anyone have a quote to suggest otherwise? I sure don't.)

So it is a Talent? I dunno.... Don't really care. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If Rand and Perrin do not feel this feeling, and you want to define a Talent as something that defies the laws of physics and is not something done with the one power, then I suppose you could call the dice a Talent. I think deep thought summed it up fairly well earlier:

"RJ seems to be pretty ambiguous as to the definition of what a Talent actually is. Of course we have an idea of what people with Talents can do (e.g. sniff out evil, see peoples auras etc.) but this doesn't give any definitive idea as to what may be considered a Talent."

I agree!

"2. Again, look at Min's quote. Ta'veren just promote balance. Look for the good of Mat's luck, and you can point to the bad."

I must disagree with your interpretation of Min's quote. I believe she is saying that the pattern uses a taveren to balance the bad of others. I think this goes back to what I am saying regarding primary and secondary taveren effects. I argue that primary taveren effects (things that directly affect the taveren) are generally good because they are balancing the bad of others. (i.e., the pattern is using the taveren to provide balance for the creator against the DO. Unless - as I said, you want to debate that there are "bad" taveren.) But the secondary taveren effects - causing strange happenings around them - are equally good and bad. So it depends upon what is being balanced and I think this is what is causing the two sides of this debate. In a way, both sides are correct.

50

Sampson: 2005-12-13

Anubis, I really liked your theory. It makes sense.

The dice are a flag, that is triggered when certain events/threads are reaching a critical juncture or crossroads. I do not know for sure, but I can not remember the dice ever stopping when Mat is alone. So the dice really do not apply directly to Mat or his luck. It is basically Mat’s 6th sense which enables him to “hear” when he thread in the pattern is approaching an important decision (dice in his head) and when the decision has been made (dice stop).

I do not think the Finns had anything to do with Mat’s “luck”. I definitely think the SL Dagger & Healing had something to do with it.

Mat’s luck is a compilation of a number of elements.

(1) He was basically “born” lucky.

(2) He is tav’ern. A focal point in the pattern.

(3) He has been tainted by a power that was manifested from a community’s emotion and will, that is powerful enough to kill and requires a greater power to heal or contain it.

(4) He has the added bonus of having vivid & detailed “memories” of men that have lived in the past.

(5) He is the Horn Blower – is it possible that the horn would pass along some kind of attribute that enables or helps the blower survive?

Those are the “only” important incidents that happened prior to Mat “hearing the dice” and noticing his incredible run of luck.

51

Darkelve: 2005-12-17

I would like to point out that, in my view, the *very* first time his luck came into play was in Shadar Logoth.

If you re-read the part where our 3 fav. Emondsfielders meet with Mordeth, you see Mordeth panicking *the moment* Mat reaches the dagger.

This is probably an outing of Mat's luck. Like in the saying 'need is the key'. The SL Dagger is linked to Mordeth's powers and Mat picking up the dagger, from under a boatload of other treasure -no less- is a clear indication to me for the first time his luck came into play. Maybe Mat grabbing the dagger was the only way they could be saved from Mordeth at that moment.

52

JakOShadows: 2005-12-20

Nice point, Darkelf. And maybe that's why fain has become so powerful since carrying the dagger. Because it is the source of Mordeth's power. But it is ideally different than we normally percieve his influence. I always thought what made him powerful was that he fed off the infection of Aridhol, not that he relied on a powerful dagger. But that would explain how he got the king's ear too. And it could be possible the Mordeth already had strong powers before he infected Aridhol and that what happened there was an off spring of that. Because the fog and Mordeth seem to operate very differently. Nice insight on that. I'll have read that passage again.

53

vergere6: 2005-12-25

The dice in Mat's head seem to stop rattling when certain crucial decisions are made by him-they always seem to end up in him fulfilling some prophecy or another, something vital being achieved from the Karaetheon Cycle

How does that tie up to Shadar Logoth? The luck does seem to have come from there, but what's the connection between SL and the Pattern exactly? That's the question we have to ask here, in my opinion.

54

Callandor: 2005-12-30

**Come on, Cal. If this were true, how did Mat make all that money? How did he get so rich if he loses as much as he wins?**

Where am I saying that Mat has lost as much as he has won??

What I am saying is very simple: Having "luck" is both "good luck" (IE: Mat's winnings) and "bad luck."

Why is everyone having such a hard time seeing this? We see it in Rand all the time, but nooooooo it can't ever be Mat.

**When it comes to Mat's tavereness and how it affects chance around him, I agree that there is as much bad as good. But when it comes to Mat's luck, I contend that Mat is luckier than he is unlucky.**

And again I have not said different -- all I'm saying, and very simply, is that you cannot say that it's all "good luck." It's both good and bad, and the "luckier" you are, the more you are of both.

**So there are (at least) 2 effects of being taveren. There's the primary effect of making sure the person accomplishes what the pattern needs him/her to do. I would suggest that this is almost always "good". (Unless you want to start debating whether or not there are "bad" taveren.) And then there's the secondary effect of bending chance around others. This is where there is as much bad as there is good.**

No, you're construing two effects that are the same thing. Again:

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 35 - Into the Woods

"Balance," Min broke in hastily. Rand's face was so dark, he looked ready to burst. Maybe he had been right to come after all. Certainly there was no point letting him throw this meeting away in a tantrum. She gave no one a chance to speak. "There is always a balance of good against bad. That's how the Pattern works. Even he doesn't change that. As night balances day, good balances harm. Since he came, there hasn't been a single stillbirth in the city, not one child born deformed. There are more marriages some days than used to be in a week, and for every man who chokes to death on a feather, a woman tumbles head over heels down three flights of stairs and, instead of breaking her neck, stands up without a bruise. Name the evil, and you can point to the good. The turning of the Wheel requires balance, and he only increases the chances of what might have happened anyway in nature." Suddenly she colored, realizing they were both looking at her. Staring, more like.**

Ta'veren are spun out to re-correct the balance of the Pattern, which is being thrown off by the choices humanity makes. Whether this is for a lot more "good" or more "evil" it doesn't matter; ta'veren bring good and evil back into the proper balance. There are technically things as "evil" ta'veren, but it's only in the balance. They will bring about favorable situations for evil to appear or an increase in evil will accompany them, while at the same time they increase the good too. Again, balance.

The bending of chance is just the process of doing this. That bending is making the outcome more likely to happen; the outcome the Pattern wants. It's not two seperate effects -- it's the same process but it's the objective, and the means.

**I must disagree with your interpretation of Min's quote. I believe she is saying that the pattern uses a taveren to balance the bad of others.**

How is she saying that? She says it flat out: "Name the evil, and you can point to the good. The turning of the Wheel requires balance, and he only increases the chances of what might have happened anyway in nature."

The Pattern requires balance -- between good and evil (refer to what Moiraine says: the Creator is good, the Dark One is evil, the Pattern is neutral). Ta'veren increase the likelihood of what would naturally happen.

And, yet again, look to the list of good and bad things she mentions.

**Those are the “only” important incidents that happened prior to Mat “hearing the dice” and noticing his incredible run of luck.**

Mat heard the dice before he got his memories from the Finn. However, he did have his flashback from the Old Blood (it seems) before he heard the dice.

55

Ozymandias: 2006-01-04

I just want to throw in here something I noticed long after I read this the first time (as in ten seconds ago, lol). In your initial quote, you interpret it to mean that Mat doesn't actually have any real dice spinning in his head. Now the context of that passage may give the lie to my words, but is it not possible that the "seemed" isn't referring to the existence of the dice, but rather to the motion of the dice, the "spinning"?

That had absolutely nothing to do with proving or disproving your theory, but I wanted to point it out. Actually, what do those quotes have to do with the theory?

56

Anubis: 2006-01-04

**Actually, what do those quotes have to do with the theory**

They show that the dice did not just appear out of nowhere and rather developed over time, like a developing sense rather then a gift from the finns or something.

57

jak o shadows: 2006-01-05

Ok I'm going to throw this one out there and you can all have a good bash at it.

I think that with Mat there are two elements in conflict. I agree that he has a talent. He is inately lucky, always has been, by his own admission. The conflict arises because he is also Ta'veren.

As we all know Ta'veren twist the pattern around them or are pushed in certain directions by the pattern. Mat has always fought this, being the stubborn and wilful young fella that he is. So you have him being pushed more often than the other two ta'veren who have resigned themselves to their destined roles more than Mat.

In my opinion Ta'vereness is a kink of luck but it is both bad and Good or more acurately a neutral luck, Mat fights it constantly so the pattern has to contort more to get him to do what he has to.

This is where Mat's own inate luck comes in. It then has to compensate for the ta'veren twisting to try to ensure a favourable outcome for Mat. The rattling of the dice he hears is the interaction of his thread in the pattern being pushed in a certain direction and his own ability compensating. A kind of resonance if you like. I think he may be hearing his own thread vibrating with the interaction. The reson it is getting louder or clearer is that he is getting more used to hearing it, practice makes perfect.

So to put it simply the sound of the dice is the interaction of neutral ta'veren luck and Mats own natural biased inate luck.

58

brother of Battles: 2010-10-06

I can't supply the quote directly, but didn't Elaida have a foretelling about her walking through the rubble of the black tower? That would show that foretelling also works for the weilder of that talent.