Ozymandias: 2006-04-19

Tam, my hang up on the issue comes from the fact that IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL!!! I just want to reconcile a few statements we've heard here to try and make my point.

A.) The Wheel is imnipotent and all powerful, as well as infallible (except for minor changes, which, of course, does not in any way disprove the entire notion of the Wheel's infallibility).

B.) Mirror Worlds, that ever present bone between me and Tam, act as a "probability engine," in which all possiblities are not only forseen but acted out, giving accurate showings of side effects and stuff.

C.) There is NO WAY to influence the Pattern. The Dark One cannot do it (though you do of course claim he can influence individual threads of the Pattern, which really makes it influence over the Pattern, now doesn't it?), nor can anyone or anything else, save balefire and ta'veren.

Now, since we know the Pattern, or the Wheel rather, has complete foreknowledge of everything that is to come, it can take a course which will lead it to its desired end. All well and good. I won't even bother to get into my argument with the entire concept of the Mirror World as a probability engine, because I've already discussed it for 26 pages and gotten nothing out of it. So I'll accept that as fact for the purposes of argument. However, if this is the case, why even go to a Last Battle? Why bring it to that? I can think of only one argument, and that is that the Wheel wants to have some sort of story told in its tapestry of time. Which sounds hollow when I say it out loud. Other than that, there is no rationale for this according to the precepts that Callandor and Tam have laid out, among other contributors. Why would the Pattern ever lay out its own possible destruction?

And, while we're at it, Tam, you have irrefutably contradicted a key point being made throughout the argument. It has been claimed that the Dark One has a certain modicum of influence over the Pattern, which is what introduces the possiblity for major variation like losing the Last Battle. Well, apparently not. We KNOW that the Mirror Worlds make up a part of some greater design. I believe Lanfear says it. But in any case, its clear that there ARE functioning societies in those worlds, and therefore, they also are under the sway of the Pattern. And yet, somehow the Dark One triumphed in those worlds. How is this possible? It shouldn't be, since according to you the Dark One is INCAPABLE of triumphing anywhere, at anytime. And, lets be honest: if the Pattern is so all powerful and infallible, why even CONSIDER the possibility of the Dark One winning? I believe in a court of law this is called "stepping on a rake," your argument just brought up a whole new line of evidence which completely contradicts your point.

Nevermind the fact that your completely contradicting scores of evidence received from the text to the contrary of this theory. I mean, you can say "how do they know whats right or wrong, they could be mistakenly assuming it, its happened before." All well and good, but if you want to be a complete skeptic, you could also say they could be wrong about Rand being the Dragon, or Seanchan to be descended from Hawkwings armies, or that Aes Sedai are unable to lie (Black Ajah excepted). I mean, you can't blatantly say that all those references to losing the Last Battle are ignorance. Otherwise the entire foundation of this fantasy universe is undermined; how do we know it exists at all, or that IT isn't a Mirror World and one of the so-called Mirror Worlds isn't the real reality (had to throw it in there, Tam). Tam made this same exact argument; because RJ decides to focus on this world, it becomes, by definition, reality. I don't agree with that, but whatever. Same concept here. Because RJ has said this so conclusively so many times, and not had anyone in the entire Randland universe ever question it once, we can assume it is fact.

Let me recap:

1.) We have assumed that Mirror Worlds help the Wheel plot out future courses, and despite the fact that we have clearly seen that takeover by the DO is a possiblity, you claim that it is an impossiblity.

2.) We hear from scores of characters that the DO can win, and never heard that questioned, and yet you ignore that rock-solid evidence because it doesn't suit your theory, and claim every character who says that, including the foremost philosophers of any age (Elan Morin, for example), must be wrong.

3.) Somehow, despite the omnipotence of the Wheel and the Pattern, it has consciously steered itself towards a showdown it clearly does not have to have, since it can do whatever it wants.

4.) We have heard it said that though the Dark One cannot have ANY influence over the Pattern (which WAS said, mind you), we can clearly see that the Dark One IS able to influence the Pattern, or at least individual threads.

5.) You claim that the Pattern has the ability to affect the most minor of things, like the use of balefire, and yet you simultaneously claim that it is possible for slight deviations to occur, which implies that if circumstances are right, the use of balefire might have continued for ONE person, thereby ruining the infallibility theory, as well as the idea that ta'veren can correct these deviations, since clearly any kind of corrective device has to have something to work with, not a burned out thread.

6.) Finally, you claim the Wheel is infallible and that it rigorously controls everything in the Pattern, despite all the evidence to the contrary: minor shifts, ta'veren, balefire certainly. And then refuse to accept that even though the infallibility theory is disproved, that something else with more power than ANY of those three things could influence the Pattern.

Just my two cents. I feel like most of that is damning evidence for this idea. I mean, the evidence you use to support your ideas, like those of the Mirror Worlds, are providing direct contradictions to your core belief. I think I can sum it up with one sentence or two.

why would the Wheel bother to plan out the probability of a DO takeover, like in the Mirror World, when according to you that is inherently impossible? It clearly is possible, since it happened in a Mirror World, an entity controlled by the Pattern in which by any logical reasoning would have no reason to let the Dark One win (set aside thepossiblity that he can) since it already knows it won't let him win in this world.

If you find a plausible explanation for all that I'll be highly impressed.

Tamyrlin: 2006-04-20

...Ozy.

First of all, you and I both know, the books support the position of this world being the Real World, off which all "mirror" worlds are based. The fact that you continue to ignore that position, and use your skewed view of Mirror Worlds to direct this conversation, changes this entire discussion. Do you want to discuss Mirror Worlds or not? This doesn't seem the place for it, but you have certainly attempted to make it an issue, which it isn't. You have yet to prove the Dark One has won in the Real World. Until you do so, your argument is baseless.

Second, you fail to add into your argument that the entire Seven Age thing is Planned. It is a Plan. The Wheel has a Plan. It is always Seven Ages in length. It repeats itself, over and over again. The same Plan. Over and over again, with small variation. Predestined. All of these things are facts. Where does your argument account for any of this? You are using an empty argument by asserting that it doesn't make sense for the Wheel to plan for the Dark One, therefore it doesn't. You and I know that is a terrible argument to make. The Wheel uses its power to correct the Pattern when human behavior takes it off course. It anticipates these changes, obviously.

Third, no one ever said the Dark One has no influence. In fact, I am rather sure it has been said that the Dark One's influence is anticipated. However, I did notice that you simply ignored the fact that the Forsaken are still under the control of the Pattern.

Fourth, no one claimed the Wheel was infallible, but it does control every thread, therefore, it is a puppet master. The Wheel allows for some free will, otherwise, it wouldn't need to use "corrective measures". It allows for human behavior, but it cannot be denied that it gets what it wants. As much as Rand didn't want to be the Dragon, he is the Dragon. As much as he doesn't want to fight the Dark One, he is fighting him. As much as Mat runs, he can't escape. The pull of the Wheel is inescapable for those threads within the Pattern...I don't know why this bothers you so much.

Fifth, to your final question. The Dark One is imprisoned. Technically, he has no influence that isn't provided by the Wheel allowing for his a Bore to be made into his prison. If it allows for such an event, obviously it will then attempt to anticipate repercussions of such an event. But it wouldn't allow for such a thing, in my opinion, if the Wheel didn't sufficiently believe it could compensate for any affect he might have. In other words, it wouldn't let him out, if it didn't anticipate how to lock him back up, which is exactly what the Dragon was born to do...and crazy, he was prophecied about three thousand years in advance to do such a thing...hmm...

Finally, if you really believe the Wheel doesn't control events, why hasn't Rand been killed yet...lucky?

Balinor: 2006-04-20

I'm not sure how this thread devolved into a discussion of the Pattern and predestination, but I'd like to throw in my two cents.

I've never been a big fan of predestination, as it tends to lead to circular logic. And that appears to be happening in this case.

I don't want to rehash the entire argument, I just want to make a few salient points. It appears that Callandor and Tamyrlin are of the same opinion, that being that The Wheel is a big predestination machine, wrapping everyone's threads up into one great big bow. And truly, that is the function of the Wheel, to weave the Age Lace from the Pattern. But the way they are saying it sounds like they are also saying the Dark One is bound by the Pattern as well, and the Dark One can never break free of the Pattern, because he is bound by it. See the circularity?

I will use a couple of Callandor's quotes (since he seems to like using quotes) to show that this argument is wrong.

**The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.**

Clearly the Dark One is NOT affected by the Pattern. RJ says so in this quote. He is outside of the Pattern. Notice another portion of the quote. "Human behavior" is throwing the Pattern out of balance. The Pattern spins out corrective mechanisms (ta'veren) to account for "human behavior".

ASSUMPTION 1) The Dark One is NOT human. I think we can all agree on this point. The Pattern does not spin out ta'veren to deal with the Dark One (at least not directly). It spins them out to deal with "human" behavior that throws the Wheel out of balance.

ASSUMPTION 2) The Dark One cannot manipulate the Pattern freely, but he CAN manipulate it to some degree. I think we can also all agree on this point. It's been stated several times throughout the series that the Dark One is still bound in his prison, he's not free to touch the Pattern, but his ability to manipulate it increases as the series goes on. The Dark One has to rely on human intermediates (The Forsaken) to accomplish most of his goals. This is where ta'veren can come in: they can correct the actions of the Forsaken.

Now it's time for the second quote:

**Why did the tainting of saidin occur? Because the Pattern wanted it to happen. How's that? Because the exact same circumstances to allow it to happen were present. So, how is that control? Because the Pattern directly controls what occurs at such important events for Ages such as this; it'd be completely ridiculous to say "Nope, this important event has no Pattern control here." **

This is where your argument falls apart. RJ says himself that the DO is outside the Pattern. The DO (and only the DO) tainted saidin. How can this be the design of the Pattern? I'll grant you that the "circumstances that allowed it to happen" were put in place by the Pattern, but the DO CHOSE to taint saidin. Why, because it furthers his goal of spreading chaos. (Also, because he's a right bastard, and that's what right bastards do.) What you are arguing is that the Pattern, in essence, tainted itself. Why would the Pattern allow that to happen to itself? As far as we know, never before in the history of the Wheel of Time did any part of the One Power become tainted. This was new to this Age. It was new to the Pattern. IT HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE! (One can make the argument that word of an event of that magnitude would be passed from age to age, like stories of wolfbrothers, and humanity learning to channel). Now, doesn't that defy the purpose of the Pattern? Doesn't the Wheel Pattern each Age as similar to each same Age before? That is, there are 7 Ages, each First Age is similar to each other First Age, Seventh Age is similar to every other 7th Age, but 1st Ages are not necessarily similar to 7th Ages. So, we have the Pattern causing something to happen that had not happened before. Have we caught the Pattern going against its own nature? Can the Pattern break its own laws? No, because the simple answer is, the Pattern did not cause saidin to be tainted. The DO saw an opportunity to increase chaos, and he took it. Because he is OUTSIDE the Pattern! The Pattern CANNOT be responsible for the actions of agents outside of itself. What is can do is start spinning out corrective mechanisms, and that's what it's been doing for most of this Age.

It seems to me that people are trying to ascribe properties of the Creator to Its Creation (the Wheel): its omnipotent, its omniscient, it controls the destinies of everyone in it. I think this interpretation is wrong, and I think if asked RJ flat out, (and he deigned to answer you) he would say it's wrong as well. In my opinion, the Pattern is like Nature and evolution. If you look at the natural history of our earth, it's roughly broken up into ages. Nature has its own set of laws, and according to these laws it evolves life out of what is available. These life forms coexist, and adapt to their environment, and flourish or die out according to their own merits. Every so often, something happens that upsets the balance, and the environment changes (like a massive meteor strike or global warming). Nature then starts over with what is left, according to its own laws. Thus begins a new age. Nature can't prevent certain events from happening, it just reacts. Because Nature isn't a sentient being. Neither is the Pattern. People keep ascribing human qualities to the Pattern (it "wants" to do this, it "takes this action", etc.) but its not. The Pattern is like a computer program, and the Creator is the programmer. The Pattern just runs. Sometimes the code degrades, or a virus (the DO) slips in. The Pattern can't prevent this, but it can take corrective action, and it does.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Pattern CAN'T account for every action that takes place, particularly beacuse the DO is OUTSIDE of it, and keeps throwing monkey wrenches in the works. The Pattern takes what action it can to repair the damage, and weaves on. It is by no means some monolithic, omniscient weaver that controls everything in the universe. It doesn't have to, beacuse it has its own internally consistent set of rules, and most things will just naturally take care of themselves. The Pattern just has to worry about the big stuff.

BUT THERE IS A CHANCE THE DARK ONE WILL WIN! Why? Because there is conflict. If the Dark One didn't think he could break free, why would he go to all the trouble of trying to break out? Why would the Creator imprison him in the first place?

ASSUMPTION 3) The Dark One is an intelligent, logical being. He's been imprisoned a long time. In that time, he'd be able to do a lot of thinking. If he could reason out that he could never break free, I think he would have quit already. Obviously, he doesn't think so, because he's still trying.

And the last reason I believe the Dark One CAN win, is a personal one. Obviously, Robert Jordan is the author of this series, and as the author, he knows how it will turn out. From what he has said, he's known the last page of the last book since he began. So it is already predetermined (in a way) what will happen to the DO. Obviously, we all hope Rand and Co. will win, and the DO will stay imprisoned. But I don't believe that RJ ever assumed that the end would be a given. Predestined. If I thought that that's what he intended, I'd stop reading this series right now, and never pick it up again. There's has to be a chance the good guys will lose, or there's no drama. RJ is too good of a writer not to know that. That's my two cents.

One last thought I'd like to share about the mirror worlds. Doesn't Verin say in the Great Hunt, that the DO is still imprisoned in all of the Mirror Worlds? That if he breaks free in one, he breaks free in all of them? I think the world that Rand and Loial visit is just dead, not because the DO is free, but because wars or some calamity have killed all of the inhbitants (except for the grolm). It's my personal opinion that IF the DO does break free, ALL of the worlds will cease to exist, because he will destroy all of Creation.

JakOShadows: 2006-04-21

Ozzy and Balinor:

I don't think you interpreting what Tam and Callandor are saying here. If they don't mind, I'll try and explain this concept to in a different way. Let's take a look at the tainting of saidin again. Let's say that the mirror worlds are probability machines, and that the pattern realized that there would be no way to stop the tainting of the one power in the last battle. So even though the DO had sufficent control to taint the one power, he didn't have enough control to stop the pattern from doing anything about it. So instead, the pattern chose to use its control to taint only saidin, by creating the division between male and female channelers in the AoL. So in short, what happened is that the DO could only control that one event, and even though they bettered the pattern in that one event, the pattern has influence over everything and can get the best circumstances out of a bad situation. The same could be said for anything that has happened to Rand. The pattern can't stop the DO from trying to assassinate Rand, but it can make a flock of birds throw of the assassins aim. So the power of the pattern is not through absolute control, but rather, it is the power to try use all of the threads in the pattern to its advantage. The DO has to focus all his energy in one spot to accomplish this, when the pattern doesn't need to do that, because it already influences all the threads in the weaving of events. And as for some more circumstantial evidence, look at the strategy of the DO/Moridin. He commands them not to kill Rand, but instead asks them to "Let the lord of chaos rule." Now to me, this means that he figures he can't defeat Rand directly, because he is ta'veren. Instead, he is trying to bring down the pattern around Rand, by creating chaos and using it to draw up more followers. I wrote a theory about this called, "How the DO will remake the world in his image." In short, it goes on to say that the only way it is possible is that he has to control a solid majority of the threads in the pattern. And I go on to say that it is inherintly very difficult to do, considering how close he was in the War of Power. Now if you don't agree with that theory, fine, but it seems like ya'll are reading the pattern's power as absolute control, and it is not. It just has more resources at hands, so to say, and this means that the DO is going to have a very tough time manipulating events considering he has fewer resources to draw on. And the DO's resources would be slightly weaker as well, considering the threads have to be in the pattern. So no, it is not absolute control, but it is a very one-sided battle.

Callandor: 2006-04-21

**C.) There is NO WAY to influence the Pattern. The Dark One cannot do it (though you do of course claim he can influence individual threads of the Pattern, which really makes it influence over the Pattern, now doesn't it?), nor can anyone or anything else, save balefire and ta'veren.**

It all depends on what you see as influence. You count the tainting of saidin to be an influence of the Dark One. I don't, because the situations were only allowed to come about by the Pattern allowing it. You can call it influence if you so chose, but it's really just ignoring a larger process.

**However, if this is the case, why even go to a Last Battle? Why bring it to that? I can think of only one argument, and that is that the Wheel wants to have some sort of story told in its tapestry of time. Which sounds hollow when I say it out loud. Other than that, there is no rationale for this according to the precepts that Callandor and Tam have laid out, among other contributors. Why would the Pattern ever lay out its own possible destruction?**

To shape the coming Ages -- how hard is that to get through? You tried this with the tainting of saidin and the drilling of the Bore and it didn't work there either.

**But in any case, its clear that there ARE functioning societies in those worlds, and therefore, they also are under the sway of the Pattern. And yet, somehow the Dark One triumphed in those worlds. How is this possible? It shouldn't be, since according to you the Dark One is INCAPABLE of triumphing anywhere, at anytime.**

Paradox. If the Dark One is free in one world, he's free in all. But if he's held in one world, he's held in all.

And I'd like to see what makes you say the Dark One triumphed in those worlds.

**All well and good, but if you want to be a complete skeptic, you could also say they could be wrong about Rand being the Dragon, or Seanchan to be descended from Hawkwings armies, or that Aes Sedai are unable to lie (Black Ajah excepted).**

In this case skeptic is being a synonym for complete moron.

**2.) We hear from scores of characters that the DO can win, and never heard that questioned, and yet you ignore that rock-solid evidence because it doesn't suit your theory, and claim every character who says that, including the foremost philosophers of any age (Elan Morin, for example), must be wrong.**

Just as you're ignoring the scores of evidence showing that the Wheel/Pattern has complete control over the events that are currently happening.

We're being shown that the characters are completely wrong to even think that the Last Battle will not be won.

Quote all the ones you want with people saying that the Last Battle can be lost; we know differently because we've been told and shown it multiple times.

**3.) Somehow, despite the omnipotence of the Wheel and the Pattern, it has consciously steered itself towards a showdown it clearly does not have to have, since it can do whatever it wants.**

I still don't get this. How is this a "showdown it clearly does not want to have?"

The Wheel/Pattern is controlling the events in the series do a degree which it becomes laughable to say that there's free will -- it's going towards the "Last Battle." Obviously it's not something it doesn't want to have. We've already been told that the Light wins this battle and the world continues on. There's obviously a reason for why events are moving toward the Last Battle.

The reason is simple: just like with the drilling of the Bore, the tainting of saidin, and the Breaking of the world, and many other events of the Age of Legends were defining for the 3rd Age, the Last Battle, the Cleansing of saidin, a whole plethora of other events of the 3rd Age will be defining for the 4th Age (and easily for other Ages past the 4th Ages as well).

**4.) We have heard it said that though the Dark One cannot have ANY influence over the Pattern (which WAS said, mind you), we can clearly see that the Dark One IS able to influence the Pattern, or at least individual threads.**

Again, go back to your failed example of the tainting of saidin. Is it influence, if the Dark One can do these things only when the Wheel/Pattern allows the proper circumstances to be present?

Put it another way: is it truly change if it is fated? Of course not.

**5.) You claim that the Pattern has the ability to affect the most minor of things, like the use of balefire, and yet you simultaneously claim that it is possible for slight deviations to occur, which implies that if circumstances are right, the use of balefire might have continued for ONE person, thereby ruining the infallibility theory, as well as the idea that ta'veren can correct these deviations, since clearly any kind of corrective device has to have something to work with, not a burned out thread.**

You're rambling.

First off, where's it stated that balefire is a small thing? If Tam said that, which I doubt, he's more wrong than he's been in a long time. Look at Mat's example. His death and subsequent return to life via the balefiring of Rahvin was clearly fated and planned by the Wheel/Pattern.

It's situational, and you're not even factoring that in (worse, you're thinking that you are, but you're not). Free will exists for minor minor minor minor things that are no importance to the Wheel/Pattern's overall plans. But, those build up over time and cause the Pattern to be put off balance. Hence, ta'veren are spun out to be self-correcting.

I really have no idea how you got to simply dismissing ta'veren as doing this since Jordan has said this on several times, and it's said explicitly in the BWB.

**Finally, you claim the Wheel is infallible and that it rigorously controls everything in the Pattern, despite all the evidence to the contrary: minor shifts, ta'veren, balefire certainly.**

How on earth are you putting ta'veren as an example of the Pattern not having rigorous control, when they are the pinnicle example of such?

**why would the Wheel bother to plan out the probability of a DO takeover, like in the Mirror World, when according to you that is inherently impossible?**

Because it's impossible by the Wheel/Pattern defending against it. It's the same view that if everyone just sits still, the Last Battle will be won because we already know the Light has won. People still have to carry out the actions. That's why they can't just "sit still" and let events go in complete disdain from doing them.

And, again, who says that the Dark One has won in those Mirror Worlds, anyway? The Wheel/Pattern is using decisions gone in other ways and the outcomes.

**But the way they are saying it sounds like they are also saying the Dark One is bound by the Pattern as well, and the Dark One can never break free of the Pattern, because he is bound by it. See the circularity?**

That has never been stated by Tam or me and it is amazing that you even suggest it. I've pointed out at least three times that the Dark One and the Creator are the only forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern. In fact, you quote the specific instance of Jordan saying this that I gave in the thread.

**I will use a couple of Callandor's quotes (since he seems to like using quotes) to show that this argument is wrong.**

Since that's not what we're arguing, you're going to have an easy time destroying the straw man you created.

**The Pattern does not spin out ta'veren to deal with the Dark One (at least not directly). It spins them out to deal with "human" behavior that throws the Wheel out of balance.**

Which is throwing off the balance of the Pattern which is maintained between Light and Shadow, and if the Dark One were ever to break free it would completely destroy any balance. Hence, ta'veren do work against the Dark One.

**The Dark One cannot manipulate the Pattern freely, but he CAN manipulate it to some degree. I think we can also all agree on this point. It's been stated several times throughout the series that the Dark One is still bound in his prison, he's not free to touch the Pattern, but his ability to manipulate it increases as the series goes on. The Dark One has to rely on human intermediates (The Forsaken) to accomplish most of his goals. This is where ta'veren can come in: they can correct the actions of the Forsaken.**

And take the process back further: why is the Dark One allowed to impact the world to whatever degree he can by his prison? Because the Pattern/Wheel allowed the drilling of his prison, and the imperfect sealing of his prision. How, if the Wheel/Pattern allows an event to happen is it influence? Again, it's the same argument as: is it change if it is fated? Of course not.

**This is where your argument falls apart. RJ says himself that the DO is outside the Pattern. The DO (and only the DO) tainted saidin. How can this be the design of the Pattern?**

Yeah, he tainted saidin. Big deal. Read again at why:

**Question: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?**

Get it? The Pattern/Wheel ALLOWED for saidin to be tainted. It did this because the situation had to be exactly right.

**What you are arguing is that the Pattern, in essence, tainted itself. Why would the Pattern allow that to happen to itself?**

Because of the impact it had on future Ages Why was the Dark One's prison drilled? Because of the impact it had. Why was saidin tainted? Because of the impact it had. Why was the Dark One sealed the way he was? Because of the impact it had.

These events are central to the shaping of the 3rd Age. You're asking WHY the Wheel/Pattern would allow them to happen? Maybe because it actually weaves the reality of those Ages? Just a little bit.

**As far as we know, never before in the history of the Wheel of Time did any part of the One Power become tainted. This was new to this Age. It was new to the Pattern. IT HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!**

And what is making you say that? The Wheel of Time repeats. It'd be ridiculous to say that such a central aspect of an Age would not happen again and again as the Wheel repeated.

**! (One can make the argument that word of an event of that magnitude would be passed from age to age, like stories of wolfbrothers, and humanity learning to channel).**

Uh, yeah. You're giving the exact same reasoning against you saying with such conviction that "IT HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!", without any proof?

**Now, doesn't that defy the purpose of the Pattern? Doesn't the Wheel Pattern each Age as similar to each same Age before?**

Yes, it does. Hence, why it's ridiculous to assume the tainting of saidin had not happen before, or will not happen again.

**Have we caught the Pattern going against its own nature? Can the Pattern break its own laws? No, because the simple answer is, the Pattern did not cause saidin to be tainted.**

1. No, because the Pattern isn't breaking any rules.

2. No, because the Pattern/Wheel controlled the exact circumstances to allow saidin to be tainted.

**I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Pattern CAN'T account for every action that takes place, particularly beacuse the DO is OUTSIDE of it, and keeps throwing monkey wrenches in the works.**

And you're missing the key part: the reason the Dark One has the influence he has is because of the Bore into his prison which the Pattern allowed to happen.

If the influence wasn't wanted/planned/controlled, the Bore would've never taken place.

**BUT THERE IS A CHANCE THE DARK ONE WILL WIN! Why? Because there is conflict. If the Dark One didn't think he could break free, why would he go to all the trouble of trying to break out? Why would the Creator imprison him in the first place?**

1. Because what else is a prisoner do but try to break free, no matter how futile it is?

2. Because he can? Because the Dark One was his antithesis? Because the Creator is a major jackass?

**Obviously, we all hope Rand and Co. will win, and the DO will stay imprisoned. But I don't believe that RJ ever assumed that the end would be a given.**

Uh, yes, it has been a given this entire time. I've quoted before why this is, by nature of the world, and the evidence for this much of which comes from Jordan saying so himself.

**If I thought that that's what he intended, I'd stop reading this series right now, and never pick it up again.**

Then do so, because that's what it has been since book 1.

**There's has to be a chance the good guys will lose, or there's no drama.**

There's the illusion of it; they don't know (even though the should know) that the Light wins.

And the drama of a story isn't just in what happens being shown. We've known events would happen for a long time, but it's not that we don't read them because we know they will happen. We knew for a long time that Rand would face Semirhage and lose a hand -- did it stop us from reading? Hell no, because we wanted to know why, how, when, etc. Things just happening isn't the only conflict in a story.

Aryl: 2006-04-21

Sogoloth, as far as the "videogame" reference, the quote I was making wasn't a videogame. I did admit, that the idea was a little iffy. I personally think that mat's "dicing luck" is not a part of his being ta'veren. I wouldn't even put this bit of info here, but it does seem to support things in the book. The game as I have quoted is a "pen & paper" role playing game. It has LOTS of room for difference, if not More than there is in the story books. It accounts for a great many things. Now.. it wasn't one of the story books, so many purist's will not agree that it guarantee's anything. Just because it says that his luck is a result of being a ta'veren, does not mean that thats what RJ meant, or had intended. However, if he had a say in this books release, and it says that, then perhaps, just maybe it is true. Just a piece of evidence that seems to prove against my own theory. I hate that sometimes. Dark Ones Advocate... err.

Khazhul: 2006-04-21

**ASSUMPTION 2) The Dark One cannot manipulate the Pattern freely, but he CAN manipulate it to some degree. I think we can also all agree on this point. It's been stated several times throughout the series that the Dark One is still bound in his prison, he's not free to touch the Pattern, but his ability to manipulate it increases as the series goes on. The Dark One has to rely on human intermediates (The Forsaken) to accomplish most of his goals. This is where ta'veren can come in: they can correct the actions of the Forsaken.**

So you are saying that the Dark One is not controlled by the pattern. Ok, I agree. You are also saying that he can really only affect the pattern through the Forsaken and his human followers. Ok, again I agree. Now according to the RJ quote the Forsaken and other DO followers ARE bound by the pattern. The DO has to use people that are bound by the pattern. The pattern controls them. Why does everyone seem to gloss over this?

**As far as we know, never before in the history of the Wheel of Time did any part of the One Power become tainted. This was new to this Age. It was new to the Pattern. IT HAD NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE! (One can make the argument that word of an event of that magnitude would be passed from age to age, like stories of wolfbrothers, and humanity learning to channel). Now, doesn't that defy the purpose of the Pattern? Doesn't the Wheel Pattern each Age as similar to each same Age before? That is, there are 7 Ages, each First Age is similar to each other First Age, Seventh Age is similar to every other 7th Age, but 1st Ages are not necessarily similar to 7th Ages. So, we have the Pattern causing something to happen that had not happened before. Have we caught the Pattern going against its own nature? Can the Pattern break its own laws? No, because the simple answer is, the Pattern did not cause saidin to be tainted. The DO saw an opportunity to increase chaos, and he took it. Because he is OUTSIDE the Pattern! The Pattern CANNOT be responsible for the actions of agents outside of itself. What is can do is start spinning out corrective mechanisms, and that's what it's been doing for most of this Age. **

What evidence do you have that this has never happened before? Is it because there was no word of it? They barely know anything of importance from the Age of Legends which was the PREVIOUS age. They mention nothing of the age before the Age of Legends which was just two ages ago. Now take that logic back 6 ages? They know nothing of that time. Why would word of the tainting be passed down to this age? There was a time, an age, maybe two where there was no One Power. It has to be rediscovered.

As for the wolfbrother thing I believe the Aes Sedai all say basically the same thing. “Is this something new or an ability that has returned?” Since we know the wolves say it’s returned that is answered for us but the Aes Sedai don’t know.

**It seems to me that people are trying to ascribe properties of the Creator to Its Creation (the Wheel): its omnipotent, its omniscient, it controls the destinies of everyone in it. I think this interpretation is wrong, and I think if asked RJ flat out, (and he deigned to answer you) he would say it's wrong as well. In my opinion, the Pattern is like Nature and evolution. If you look at the natural history of our earth, it's roughly broken up into ages. Nature has its own set of laws, and according to these laws it evolves life out of what is available. These life forms coexist, and adapt to their environment, and flourish or die out according to their own merits. Every so often, something happens that upsets the balance, and the environment changes (like a massive meteor strike or global warming). Nature then starts over with what is left, according to its own laws. Thus begins a new age.**

That’s a fine opinion. Not backed up by any quotes or evidence but a fine opinion none the less. As such it will remain completely invalid for the sake of arguing theories.

**Nature can't prevent certain events from happening, it just reacts. Because Nature isn't a sentient being.**

I know of a few religions here that would disagree but we’ll not get into that.

**Neither is the Pattern. People keep ascribing human qualities to the Pattern (it "wants" to do this, it "takes this action", etc.) but its not. The Pattern is like a computer program, and the Creator is the programmer. The Pattern just runs. Sometimes the code degrades, or a virus (the DO) slips in. The Pattern can't prevent this, but it can take corrective action, and it does.**

All of this is you personal opinion unless you provide evidence otherwise. The pattern as a sentient being is probably a good topic for another thread.

Now it sounds like you are saying the pattern is reactionary? If that is what you are saying I would have to disagree. The prophecies themselves prove that wrong.

Another thing, how did the DO ‘slip in’? Lanfear and her friends drilled the bore. Lanfear and friends, who are controlled by the pattern. The pattern allowed for him to be let in, not slipped in.

**I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Pattern CAN'T account for every action that takes place, particularly beacuse the DO is OUTSIDE of it, and keeps throwing monkey wrenches in the works. The Pattern takes what action it can to repair the damage, and weaves on. It is by no means some monolithic, omniscient weaver that controls everything in the universe. It doesn't have to, beacuse it has its own internally consistent set of rules, and most things will just naturally take care of themselves. The Pattern just has to worry about the big stuff.**

Those ‘monkey wrenches’ are accounted by the pattern. The pattern knew of the long summer, the long winter, the ghosts, the famine from food corrupting because it IS ALL IN THE PROPHECIES.

**BUT THERE IS A CHANCE THE DARK ONE WILL WIN! Why? Because there is conflict. If the Dark One didn't think he could break free, why would he go to all the trouble of trying to break out? Why would the Creator imprison him in the first place? **

We could get into a debate on how you can’t have a coin without two sides and such but I think you get my point. Why would he keep trying to break free? What else is he going to do? If you had an eternity in prison what would you occupy your time with? I guess I would have to assume the creator imprisoned him so he wouldn’t destroy what the Creator created.

**ASSUMPTION 3) The Dark One is an intelligent, logical being. He's been imprisoned a long time. In that time, he'd be able to do a lot of thinking. If he could reason out that he could never break free, I think he would have quit already. Obviously, he doesn't think so, because he's still trying.**

See above response.

**And the last reason I believe the Dark One CAN win, is a personal one. Obviously, Robert Jordan is the author of this series, and as the author, he knows how it will turn out. From what he has said, he's known the last page of the last book since he began. So it is already predetermined (in a way) what will happen to the DO. Obviously, we all hope Rand and Co. will win, and the DO will stay imprisoned. But I don't believe that RJ ever assumed that the end would be a given. Predestined. If I thought that that's what he intended, I'd stop reading this series right now, and never pick it up again. There's has to be a chance the good guys will lose, or there's no drama. RJ is too good of a writer not to know that. That's my two cents.**

No drama if you know the good guys will win? What about the drama of who lives and who dies? There is drama even if you know the end. When I travel I can fly, drive, or take a train. It’s not always the destination that counts, sometimes it’s how you get there.

According to your logic we should all just kill ourselves now because we already know our destiny. We’re all going to die someday. What’s the point of living knowing that? Perhaps because there is drama in the journey?

Ok, now for everyone that complains that this is going off topic. It is not. This thread is about what accounts for Mat’s luck. Callandor is saying that there is no luck, just the illusion of luck because this world is predetermined, not random. If that is true, then his luck is because he is Ta’Veren and not some special crazy ability that is above and beyond anything other that the fact that the pattern requires him to win when it counts.

Callandor: 2006-04-21

**Let's say that the mirror worlds are probability machines, and that the pattern realized that there would be no way to stop the tainting of the one power in the last battle. So even though the DO had sufficent control to taint the one power, he didn't have enough control to stop the pattern from doing anything about it. So instead, the pattern chose to use its control to taint only saidin, by creating the division between male and female channelers in the AoL. So in short, what happened is that the DO could only control that one event, and even though they bettered the pattern in that one event, the pattern has influence over everything and can get the best circumstances out of a bad situation.**

Essentially it, but I just view it differently.

You're seeing it as "The Dark One tainted saidin; the Pattern reacted and changed plans."

I view it as "The Pattern planned for it to happen by allowing the circumstances to come about." That's why the seals were use. That's why the Fateful Concord occured (Jordan has said that if women had been present, saidar would've been tainted, too). That's partly why the drilling of the Bore occured. It was all set up so that saidin could be tainted.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-21

Balinor, when it comes down to it, you're really not arguing the end result of what I said. I don't think the Dark One stands even a remotely even chance of winning. All I'm saying is that he is ABLE to influence the Pattern and throw it off course, at which point the Pattern introduces ta'veren and makes other changes to minimize the effects of the Dark One's influence.

There are so many holes in the idea of predestination that there is no way it could possibly be true in the absolute sense that Tam and Callie are pitching it. In a perfect world, maybe thats how it works, but in this world, with the DO and everything, it just CAN'T work in that manner. Thats why bad things happen.

Tamyrlin: 2006-04-21

Ozy, the problem is, we are pitching the idea based on the philosophy Jordan is pitching. You are not. The Dark One has influence because the plan set forth by the Creator allowed for the Wheel to weave the world is such a way as to allow for the Bore to me made. Also, the Creator obviously created the following Age as the one in which the Dragon fights the Dark One in order to fix the Bore. You are avoiding all of the large gaps in your idea; namely the existence of prophecy, ta'veren, and the blatant quotes in the BWB that say the exact same thing we are saying. Rand can't avoid his destiny, yet you continue to say the Pattern isn't in control. Neither of us has said the Dark One cannot influence the Pattern, as far as I recall. But we have said that the Dark One's influence was built into the original plan for the Seven Ages, the plan the Wheel carries out and has for as long as it has existed.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-22

Let me see if I can sum up what I think you're saying.

The Creator does his thing and brings the Wheel and stuff into existence. I don't mean any sarcasm or skepticism with this one, though it may come across like that. He then decides that in order to make things interesting and give the Pattern somehting to talk about, so to speak, he ties in this element of the Dark One and the constant stuggle between Light and Shadow. And while it may seem to those involved in the conflict that there is a chance for loss while they are engaged in the conflict, in reality, its all planned out.

That, to me, is the gist of what you're saying. Thats the only way I could possible reconcile every point of this argument into a theory that makes sense. Because nothing else accounts for the presence of all the variables that have been pointed out over the course of this debate.

And despite your claims that you represent the ideas espoused by RJ, you unfortunately do not. Or rather, you defend those ideas that support your belief and blatantly ignore those that support mine.

Let me see if I can locate the relevant parts of your argument. The quotes you have to back you up, which come from the BWB, the only book capable of dealing with the Dark One and the Pattern in such an objective way, say this:

"change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism"

all well and good, we have all agreed that change occurs, and ta'veren correct it. The next one more or less mirrors what I said above (ironically, without having read this quote first):

"The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel’s own correcting mechanism”

Even accepting this as a fact, which it clearly isn’t due to the inclusion of the doubt-inducing word “thought”, it still doesn’t even touch on the influence of the Dark One.

Before moving on to my own evidence, let me say something. It has been implied strongly, even outright stated on a few occaisions, that the Dark One’s influence on the Pattern is clearly nominal. Yes, he can tempt a few people, but in the end, its useless. All well and good. This pretty much amounts to saying the Dark One has no effect; since the only changes that matter and can’t be fixed by ta’veren are major ones, minor changes can be discounted as actual deviation for the purpose of this argument, because the Wheel can deal with such changes easily.

So let me go on. Firstly…. “if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation [the Pattern]” BWB, 16.

And since he clearly has the power to do this, as stated on page 49 of the BWB, your theory is inadmissible and has been clearly contradicted. There IS a chance that the Dark One could conquer all. Let me also point out something that has been tacitly, and maybe even openly, debated: His ability to influence this world. He can. Despite claims to the contrary, that he cannot directly influence the Pattern, he can. “he has the ability to affect the physical world” BWB, 48. My apologies Tam, Callie, and anyone else agreeing with that viewpoint; direct contradiction from the man himself that the Dark One DOES have direct influence over this world. It does not say “he can only affect it through the use of proxies” though those proxies are the only way for him to break free.

Let me make a few points from the standpoint of logic and rationality, as well. The Pattern is NOT all-knowing. It has been claimed that, aside from the minor variation brought in by human behavior, which in and of itself provides balance to the Pattern, the Pattern is all controlling of all events. Wrong. The Dark One is outside the knowledge or influence of the Pattern. The Pattern can set events up all to its liking, but that doesn’t mean the Dark One will act on those chances. For example, take the Taint. According to your line of argument, the Taint is a part of the 3rd Age, and major plotline, so to speak, set up by the Pattern to be part of the overall story. And according to the nature of the Wheel, this has been plotted out IN ADVANCE. That means that the Pattern bases its entire future plan upon this one event happening. But the Dark One could have not Tainted saidin. Then what happens? The Pattern can’t predict that, and now your entire theory is caput, because the Pattern CAN’T determine future events for a certainty. And if you claim that the Pattern will adapt to whatever changes come its way, be it being Tainted or not, well, that screws your theory also. Because you claim the Pattern is all knowing. The BWB claims the Pattern can see infinitely and correctly into the future. But clearly it can’t. So where are we left? The nature of the Dark One precludes any chance of ultimate predicting ability.

I’m not saying the Pattern isn’t infinitely adaptable. I’m not saying the Dark One will win. All I’m saying is that your idea of total predestination is WRONG. Get over yourselves enough for one second to realize that no, you don’t represent RJ’s ideas, and that if you use a little common sense, you know that the unequivocal stance your taking on this issue can’t be right either. I agree with you that in theory, the Pattern is all knowing, all powerful, yada yada yada. But the presence of the Dark One changes all that. The Dark One can influence individual threads of the Pattern. Isn’t that evidence enough? He can influence the entire Pattern through his weather changes. You may say that the Wheel sets up the conditions for that to happen, but it doesn’t know whether the Dark One will or not. And if it bases its future plan on the fact that the Dark One will; well, it doesn’t know that, and if its wrong, then your theory goes straight to hell. Obviously the Pattern has a backup plan, but that’s not what we’re arguing. Your saying the Pattern can never be wrong and that it accounts for everything sans human behavior. That every major event that has happened or that will happen has been 100% planned for. Statistically, that is a physical impossibility. My one piece of hard evidence is enough to shoot down even a nearly infinite amount of evidence you have, because all I have to do is show, in one meager instance, that what you’re saying could possibly be incorrect. I have done so above. There is a possibility, however remote, that the Pattern is wrong. And that’s all I need to say.

haertchen: 2006-04-22

I was doing a reread, and I discovered a quote that relates directly to the subject at hand.

The following is from the discussion between Min and Siuan about Rand's unilateral decision to get Callandor before (in Moiraine and Suian's decision) he is ready, and about whether they can/should control him.

***

Siuan`'s tiredness seemed to slide from her shoulders. She straightened and stood looking down at Min. "You had best hope we can. Did you think we could just let him run about loose? Headstrong and stubborn, untrained, unprepared, maybe going mad already. Do you think we could trust to the Pattern, to his destiny, to keep him alive, like some story? This isn't a story, he isn't some invincible hero, and if his thread is snipped out of the Pattern, the wheel of time won't notice his going, and the Creator will produce no miracles to save us. If Moiraine cannot reef his sails, he may well get himself killed, and where are we then? Where is the world? The Dark One's prison is failing. He will touch the world again; it is only a matter of time. If Rand Al'thor is not there to face him in the Last Battle, if the headstrong young fool gets himself killed first, the world is doomed. The War of the Power all over again, with no Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions. Then fire and shadow, forever." She stopped suddenly, peering at Min's face. "So that's the way the wind sets, is it? You and Rand. I did not expect this."

**************************************

We can and will argue over how much Siuan actually knows about the subject. On the other hand, I have seen no quotes that relate so directly to the subject at hand.

The real problem, as I see it, is that it *is* a story, Rand "really" is an invincible hero (well, something like that.) However, this can't be true within the "suspension of disbelief" world that we create when reading them. This world needs real tension, real difficulties. Thus I lean towards accepting the quote above as legitimate.

There are two levels of control (the Pattern and RJ) and I suspect people are attributing power to the Pattern that really belongs to RJ. (E.g. the story will come out OK, for some value of OK.)

Tamyrlin: 2006-04-22

Ozy, you are killing me. You keep on twisting my words, by suggesting that I have ever said something like "the Pattern is infallible" or "the Dark One can't influence the Pattern". Of course, I have never said those things. However, you then gloss over the blatant facts that go against your disbelief in the predestination of this world. The BWB clearly states that the Creator setup this Plan for the Ages, and that the Wheel weaves this plan together. And that this same plan repeats itself over and over again, with slight variation. If your theory or disagreement with predestination were true, there is no chance that this same Seven Ages of billions of threads could ever be woven into the same exact Pattern (with slight variations) Turning after Turning, if not for the fact that the Ages were predestined. In your view of the world, the Patterns of each Turning would vary greatly, to the point of not being the same. Ages wouldn't ever repeat themselves, because how could they, according to your view? It isn't Callandor and I having an issue of "getting over ourselves". It is the simple fact that Jordan is writing about a world where every major event is predestined. How can you even begin to say that the Pattern cannot account for the existence of the Dark One, when the Creator is the one who set the whole thing up in the first place? Furthermore, how can you ignore the fact that the plan calls for the birth of the Dragon Reborn to defeat the Dark One, if the Wheel wasn't taking into account the actions of the Dark One as they pertain to this world, three thousand years in advance of when the seals break, in order to give prophecy so far in advance of these events?

Callandor: 2006-04-23

**And despite your claims that you represent the ideas espoused by RJ, you unfortunately do not. Or rather, you defend those ideas that support your belief and blatantly ignore those that support mine.**

It's funny that you're talking of ignoring things, when you're ignoring large sections of evidence that we've presented.

**Even accepting this as a fact, which it clearly isn’t due to the inclusion of the doubt-inducing word “thought”, it still doesn’t even touch on the influence of the Dark One.**

Which is again you simply failing to take this one step further back.

**Before moving on to my own evidence, let me say something. It has been implied strongly, even outright stated on a few occaisions, that the Dark One’s influence on the Pattern is clearly nominal. Yes, he can tempt a few people, but in the end, its useless. All well and good. This pretty much amounts to saying the Dark One has no effect; since the only changes that matter and can’t be fixed by ta’veren are major ones, minor changes can be discounted as actual deviation for the purpose of this argument, because the Wheel can deal with such changes easily.**

1. His influence isn't useless; it's planned on. That's not being useless. It is however depending on if you want to call it "influence" or not because it's planned for.

2. Major changes in this world is a completely useless statement. Major changes are ones brought about by ta'veren, not ones that ta'veren cannot change.

** Let me also point out something that has been tacitly, and maybe even openly, debated: His ability to influence this world. He can. Despite claims to the contrary, that he cannot directly influence the Pattern, he can.**

Please point out where either Tam or I said this. The point we've been making is whether you would even call it influence because it is planned for.

Everyone can see the Dark One's influence in Knife of Dreams -- you'd have to be a god damn idiot not to. Food is rotting like mad, hallways are changing every once and a while, people are spewing bugs, and the dead are walking -- all pretty easy to see as the Dark One's influence.

Yet look at the last one: the dead are walking. What is it about this that's so important? It's one of the key signals to the Last Battle being soon. IT WAS PLANNED FOR. It's the exact same thing as with the tainting of saidin. Is it influence when it's predicted and planned for? Is it change when it's fated? Of course not.

**The Pattern is NOT all-knowing. It has been claimed that, aside from the minor variation brought in by human behavior, which in and of itself provides balance to the Pattern, the Pattern is all controlling of all events. Wrong. The Dark One is outside the knowledge or influence of the Pattern. The Pattern can set events up all to its liking, but that doesn’t mean the Dark One will act on those chances.**

Right. Of course.

Oh wait, I forget. The two classic examples we have of such for sure events -- the tainting of saidin and the dead walking -- what happened? The Dark One came through with those.

**But the Dark One could have not Tainted saidin.**

But he didn't. The same way he didn't decide not to make the dead walk. Both events clearly controlled by the Wheel/Pattern, even if you want to toss "choice" to the Dark One.

The "influence" you're clamouring for is the exact amount the Wheel/Pattern gave to the Dark One, and not a hair more, when and how it wanted.

**The BWB claims the Pattern can see infinitely and correctly into the future. But clearly it can’t.**

Uh huh. Clearly it cannot because we have quotes saying that it can, and we have been given perfect examples of it doing this. Clearly, the Pattern cannot do this. Yeah, right.

**All I’m saying is that your idea of total predestination is WRONG.**

And if we were arguing for that, you'd be right. We're not. How many times must we point out that there is free will? How many times must we point out that ta'veren are needed to re-correct the balance of that free will?

What we're saying is that what the Wheel/Pattern wants, it gets by any means. It always will. When it doesn't matter, if the event is small enough, it doesn't need to have it exactly it's way. But when it's important, it will always get it's way.

**Get over yourselves enough for one second to realize that no, you don’t represent RJ’s ideas, and that if you use a little common sense, you know that the unequivocal stance your taking on this issue can’t be right either.**

Uh huh. I'll have to point out again that we're using quotes from the series Jordan has written here, and the specific examples he's shown, as well as his own words. Yeah, we're so incorrect here.

**You may say that the Wheel sets up the conditions for that to happen, but it doesn’t know whether the Dark One will or not.**

Again -- what is one of the key signs of the Last Battle coming soon? The dead walking. A thing that cannot be more clearly a work of the Dark One.

Yet, it's planned for.

**That every major event that has happened or that will happen has been 100% planned for. Statistically, that is a physical impossibility.**

I don't know how many times that we have to repeat: this is Jordan's series; prophecy, predetermination, and fate are facts of the world. We're not claiming it; we're re-stating it to you to understand.

**My one piece of hard evidence is enough to shoot down even a nearly infinite amount of evidence you have, because all I have to do is show, in one meager instance, that what you’re saying could possibly be incorrect. I have done so above.**

That's funny, I haven't seen it.

**However, this can't be true within the "suspension of disbelief" world that we create when reading them. This world needs real tension, real difficulties. Thus I lean towards accepting the quote above as legitimate.**

You'll see this is nothing other than Siuan venting. In The Eye of the World, Min saw events that Rand would do, briefly things like Callandor, the rain in the waste, taking the Crown of Illian, etc. How can it be that those would be Viewings, things that are CERTAIN to happen no matter what, if Rand was going to die before completing them? These events are fated to Rand, just like all Viewings are fated to people. The Wheel/Pattern is going to demand that they be carried out the way it wants.

That means that Rand will not die without carrying out those events.

Saidar Haran: 2006-04-24

Clearly, someone is going to have to make a theory on predestination in order for this thread to get back on track. I haven't read many of the recent replies, but I read enough to know they don't mention Mat. Perhaps I'll even make the new theory myself.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-27

Callandor, much of the evidence we get is just barely vague enough that it DOESN'T automatically imply that the Pattern can see an infinite distance into the future. I mean... its all well and good to say the Pattern planned for every event ever, but where is the proof? Your justification thus far has been this: Because it happened, the Pattern planned for it. If we had solid proof that the Pattern planned for everything, this would be valid. However, your assuming that because its happening, the Pattern allows for it, and use that as a justification in your argument of predetermination.

One point I haven't adequately addressed in its relation to the whole issue is that of free will? Why? Why is there free will, even in a minor fashion? You can say human behavior, but that doesn't account for it. The Pattern is powerful enough to control for a myriad of other actions, its clearly powerful enough to control for free will. So why is it allowed for? Why does the Pattern/Creator feel that its so necessary for there to be free will when its patently obvious, according to you, that it just creates extra work for them to fix because in the end it all has to end up exactly so? Its just not rational. I know Tam will jump in with some ridiculously speculative argument about the Creator not having the same rationality as us, but thats just a foolish concept, since the Creator is not making his principle creation as the exact opposites of himself.

And Callandor, you claim that the Dark One's influence is predicted for, but it CANNOT BE! This is outright stated. No ambiguity. The Dark One is outside the Pattern. The Pattern cannot predict for beings outside its existence. Bam. There is no way for the Pattern to know if the Dark One will even bother to exercise his influence. Therefore, it CANNOT plan for his influence being there! Don't you see? The Pattern CANNOT have planned for the Taint, because it has no idea that the Taint would even be there! for the purposes of argument I'll agree with you that for the Tainting to happen, conditions had to be prepared for the Dark One that only the Pattern could set up. But even so, there is still a chance that the Dark One doesn't decide to take advantage of that. The Pattern has no physical way of knowing one way or another. So, even if the Dark One had a 99.99% chance of Tainting, there is still that .01% chance he doesn't. And that means that the Pattern is NOT omniscient. It doesn't know the future for a certainty. It doesn't plan for everything. It tries to anticipate, but it has no concrete knowledge. This inability by the Pattern to predict the actions of the Dark One is the one irrefutable point that has been drilled (forgive the weak pun ;) through your theory.

Let me reiterate: The Pattern cannot predict for the actions of the Dark One. All of the major events of this Age, or most, are in some way related to an action the Dark One has taken, or will take. Therefore, the Pattern is incapable of predicting with a certainty any of the major events of this age.

Is that clear enough? And no, Saidar Haran, no separate theory is necessary. I think we're good here, and besides, it'll take months to get it out anyways. Tam has explained his process to me, and its very... thorough. It takes a loooong time for theories to go through

Ozymandias: 2006-04-27

A few final comments. In two places RJ comes tantalizingly close to saying that the Pattern is completely predetermined. He says "no one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change or alter its destiny".

Note that RJ specifically exludes creatures OUTSIDE the Pattern from that description. If NOTHING could change the Pattern's Manifest Destiny, for lack of a better term, he would have said so. Instead, he is careful to specifiy that it is only creatures of the Pattern that are powerless against it. Jordan even contradicts himself slightly by saying that people can in fact effect "slight change" on the Pattern, as compared to the "no change" he later claims. But thats above and beyond the point.

I guess I also have a theoretical question for you: can the Creator alter the Pattern? I ask this rhetorically, since he obviously can (seeing as he's the one who created it). HE can alter its design; his presence in EotW is a clear symbol that he IS changing things so that they go the right way. So right then and there your theory that the WHEEL is omniscient/omnipotent is shot to hell.

Let me make this point again. I am NOT saying that the Pattern, in the best of all possible worlds (thank you, Voltaire) isn't omniscient. But the Dark One is the "monkey wrench" (as someone so succinctly put it) in its designs. The Dark One is unpredictable. That is point A. The Dark One can influence the Pattern. That is point B. When we combine points A and B to get point C, we find that the Dark One exerts an uncontrollable/unpredictable influence on the Pattern that the Wheel cannot predict. If the Wheel can't predict it, then clearly it is NOT omniscient/omnipotent, as you claim,

Tamyrlin: 2006-04-29

Ozy, you have not listened, I answered you question in our discussion in chat. The Pattern doesn't "plan", the Creator created the Wheel and the Pattern. He planned each Age, and he knows of the DO's existence. He planned for each Age and how it happened, and the Wheel is putting that plan into action by weaving the Pattern. Therefore, your one idea, that you think ruins pre-destination, doesn't fly.

Callandor: 2006-04-29

**Callandor, much of the evidence we get is just barely vague enough that it DOESN'T automatically imply that the Pattern can see an infinite distance into the future. I mean... its all well and good to say the Pattern planned for every event ever, but where is the proof?**

Where am I saying this Ozy? I'm saying the Wheel/Pattern gets events that it wants to happen to happen every single time. The major events to the Wheel/Pattern. Does the Pattern see every single little tiny event, like person x making third attempt at making a spark for a fire on August 24 5:56 pm? No, don't be ridiculous. You keep trying to frame this as if I'm saying there is no free will, everything is planned, and everything is so terrible because of it.

**One point I haven't adequately addressed in its relation to the whole issue is that of free will? Why? Why is there free will, even in a minor fashion?**

Because the Creator wanted there to be, because he was lazy, because he didn't think his plan all the way through. Take your pick.

**Why does the Pattern/Creator feel that its so necessary for there to be free will when its patently obvious, according to you, that it just creates extra work for them to fix because in the end it all has to end up exactly so?**

Where have I ever said that free will was necessary?

I'm getting tired of saying this: quite attributing words that I am not saying to me Ozy.

**And Callandor, you claim that the Dark One's influence is predicted for, but it CANNOT BE! This is outright stated.**

Really?

Then please explain what I have brought up, Ozy. How is it that the Wheel/Pattern gave the exact specific conditions for saidin, and only saidin, to be tainted? How is it that the Wheel/Pattern has accounted for the Dark One being close to breaking free/gaining more influence, and spinning the Dragon soul out into the world? How has it planned for all the events necessary for the Dragon soul to be reborn the exact way that it has desired so far? How has it planned for the Dark One making ghosts appear?

And doing a majority of these around 3000+ years before hand.

** The Dark One is outside the Pattern. The Pattern cannot predict for beings outside its existence. Bam. There is no way for the Pattern to know if the Dark One will even bother to exercise his influence. Therefore, it CANNOT plan for his influence being there! Don't you see?**

No, I don't, since that doesn't make any sense with what we've seen in the series.

It's this simple Ozy. The Dark One has the influence on the Pattern that he has because the Wheel/Pattern allowed for him to have exactly that much influence.

You know, the drilling? That event you still can't seem to get around to that the Wheel/Pattern forced to happen for specific reasons, because you claim the Pattern wouldn't weave "for it's own destruction" (as if that can come close to happening if the Wheel/Pattern is determining/controlling/planning for the degree of influence).

**The Pattern CANNOT have planned for the Taint, because it has no idea that the Taint would even be there!**

Again, then how did it just so happen that the exact circumstances necessary for the tainting of saidin came about for such a singularly important event for one Age, and ths subsequent Age?

You haven't given any answer to this Ozy. You're ignoring it.

**for the purposes of argument I'll agree with you that for the Tainting to happen, conditions had to be prepared for the Dark One that only the Pattern could set up.**

Which is planning, Man!

How hard is that to see?

**The Pattern has no physical way of knowing one way or another.**

Again -- it created the exact same circumstances for saidin to be tainted, and lo and behold it was. It predicted about 3000+ years before hand that the Dark One would make ghosts appear, and lo and behold they did. Hmmmmmmm.

**Let me reiterate: The Pattern cannot predict for the actions of the Dark One. All of the major events of this Age, or most, are in some way related to an action the Dark One has taken, or will take. Therefore, the Pattern is incapable of predicting with a certainty any of the major events of this age.**

And I'll repeat again: the books show exactly the opposite. You even agree they show the opposite, then try to claim that they don't.

**Is that clear enough?**

It's perfectly clear, and dead wrong.

**I guess I also have a theoretical question for you: can the Creator alter the Pattern?**

Of course, but he never will because he doesn't intervene.

**HE can alter its design; his presence in EotW is a clear symbol that he IS changing things so that they go the right way.**

How's that? The Creator does not intervene. Jordan has stipulated that several times.

**So right then and there your theory that the WHEEL is omniscient/omnipotent is shot to hell.**

And if I had been arguing for that, I'd be something.

**The Dark One is unpredictable. That is point A. The Dark One can influence the Pattern. That is point B. When we combine points A and B to get point C, we find that the Dark One exerts an uncontrollable/unpredictable influence on the Pattern that the Wheel cannot predict. If the Wheel can't predict it, then clearly it is NOT omniscient/omnipotent, as you claim,**

And let me keep restating:

1. I am not saying the Wheel is controlling/predetermining every single thing. It's controlling and predetermining the major events for it's plan.

2. Yes, the Dark One has influence. As I said, if you read Knife of Dreams, you'd have to be an idiot not to see that.

3. The key point you're missing, and I'd say downright ignoring, is that the Wheel/Pattern is what gave the Dark One the influence he has now.

4. We've seen that the Wheel/Pattern has predicted the Dark One's "actions" -- again, the ghosts.

haertchen: 2006-04-29

***Ozy, you have not listened, I answered you question in our discussion in chat.***

The rest of us would like the full discussion here.

***The Pattern doesn't "plan", the Creator created the Wheel and the Pattern. He planned each Age, and he knows of the DO's existence. He planned for each Age and how it happened, and the Wheel is putting that plan into action by weaving the Pattern. Therefore, your one idea, that you think ruins pre-destination, doesn't fly.***

Did the creator plan for every version or realization of the ages, and make sure they all work out exactly as intended, or did he provide the wheel with heuristics that it can use to make general decisions? If so, how can humans be said to have any free wheel in any meaningful sense?

I feel that it fits better with the scheme described in the books that the Creator just created general heuristics and leaves it up to humanity to strain the wheel's weave or not, as they see fit.

Oh, and Callandor: I was thinking about your argument about the viewings. That's probably the most cogent argument I've seen so far, but I have some quibles with it.

Basically, at least some fortellings and viewing seem to refer to events after Tarmon Gaidon. In particular, Birgette's viewings of Gaidal as a younger man would have to be after Tarmon Gaidon. Does this mean the light is predestined to win Tarmon Gaidon? Or is it possible the DO's influence might destroy even Min's viewings?

JakOShadows: 2006-04-29

Ozzy:

It isn't that difficult for the pattern to see ahead to the future. You could argue that the mirror worlds act as a predicting machine. Or you could look at the struggle as a game of chess. And if you've ever played chess good, you tend to plan all your moves ahead and try to see all the opponents counterattacks. Now picture a giant supercomputer playing against you, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for it to see all the moves. The pattern can be viewed in the exact same sense, a very intelligent entity, that it is playing a game with the DO with more weapons at hand to begin with. So its not that much of stretch that the pattern can predict what the DO is going to do and make a plan that includes it.

Callandor: 2006-04-29

**Oh, and Callandor: I was thinking about your argument about the viewings. That's probably the most cogent argument I've seen so far, but I have some quibles with it.

Basically, at least some fortellings and viewing seem to refer to events after Tarmon Gaidon. In particular, Birgette's viewings of Gaidal as a younger man would have to be after Tarmon Gaidon. Does this mean the light is predestined to win Tarmon Gaidon? Or is it possible the DO's influence might destroy even Min's viewings?**

I've said several times now: we know the outcome of the Last Battle. The Light wins. From the 4th Age histories, to Jordan's own comments, to, yes, Fortellings and Viewings we know there still are people after the Last Battle to tell a story, a world to still continue, and one in which the Dark One has not won.

haertchen: 2006-04-30

***I've said several times now: we know the outcome of the Last Battle. The Light wins. From the 4th Age histories, to Jordan's own comments, to, yes, Fortellings and Viewings we know there still are people after the Last Battle to tell a story, a world to still continue, and one in which the Dark One has not won.***

Yes, of course. The thing is that this is meta-knowledge, as it were. We know this because (1) RJ doesn't want to be lynched, (2) he wanted the story to be about humanity's salvation and (3) we have the quotes from the omniscient view.

But despite all this, I can't help but think that there has to be some tension within the world itself, without our insights. At the point we are at in the series, I can't help but believe the Shadow has a decent shot at winning. Otherwise, what's the point? I don't feel the journey is enough. The shadow has to be able to unravel the pattern and destroy Min's viewings.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-01

An interesting discussion on predestination in Randland. So according to the ‘general’ consensus on what RJ has said re predestination – almost everything in Randland is predestined ?

This would mean that all events –lucky events included- are predestined, and when looking from the outside, cannot be luck (ie, to those outside the pattern - this means that luck doesn’t exist). It also means that free will doesn’t exist, for free will cannot, by definition, exist in a world that is predestined.

Now quite obviously Free Will exists in Randland.

From skimming through the posts, am I correct is saying - The explanation offered for this, apparently contradictory stance, is that people’s choices aren’t predetermined (ie RJ is using the word loosely/incorrectly), and the mirror worlds are what allow The Pattern to tell what is ‘going to happen’? Forgive me if this has already been answered, but don’t the mirror worlds just reflect ‘what could have BEEN’ ? Ie. The mirror worlds are also in the present, but are reflections what would the world could have been if different decisions were made, if an event had a different outcome etc etc?

A weird outcome of this predestination thingy is that there should be no need for Ta’veren…because :

-everyone is already almost completely predestined…which is what the books suggest Ta’veren are.

-It should mean (because ta’veren do exist) that it is impossible for Ta’veren ‘to be bound tighter by the web’ etc…because everyone is already (almost) completely bound by the web.

-It should mean that Ta’veren have the same amount of choices as anyone…because everyone’s choices are already predetermined.

The suicide argument is a simple one. For a person with free will - there are no if’s, no but’s - for it is quite literally impossible to prevent someone who truly wants to commit suicide from committing suicide (the exception being - unless you put them in a straight jacket in a padded cell, sedate them and drip feed them…but in that situation, you have taken away anything that makes them human).

Tamyrlin: 2006-05-01

Snakes, I see no reason whatsoever, that in this universe Jordan created, that his Creator couldn't have created a system that was based on a pre-destined plan, that allowed for free will for some individuals, or for all individuals for some period of time, as long as those choices didn't change those plans in any significant way. Especially considering every Jordan quote and every quote from the BWB, suggests that very thing. Without predestination, a turning of seven Ages would never repeat itself. There is no argument against this. If a turning of Seven Ages repeats itself with small variations, then predestination exists. Otherwise, the repetition would be impossible. Here are some pertinent quotes about Mirror Worlds and Tel'aran'rhiod. First, Mirror Worlds: "Reflections of what will be are fainter than reflections of what is or what was, just as Hurin says the trail he followed was faint." Then, Tel'aran'rhoid, "The weave of the Pattern could be read there- past, present and future-by one who knew how." Then consider the example of Rand and company using the Portal Stones, when they were thrust through an huge number of "futures" of their own, lived hundreds of variations of their future lives.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be

"He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, gleeman, sailor, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and the sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who had survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in her eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer's daughter met on the road to Caemlyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear. I have won again, Lews Therin."

Callandor: 2006-05-01

**So according to the ‘general’ consensus on what RJ has said re predestination – almost everything in Randland is predestined?**

No, the centrally important events are predetermined. Rand taking Callandor, proving that he's the Dragon Reborn. Rand taking Illian. Rand, Mat, and Perrin doing innumerable other events.

**This would mean that all events –lucky events included- are predestined, and when looking from the outside, cannot be luck (ie, to those outside the pattern - this means that luck doesn’t exist). It also means that free will doesn’t exist, for free will cannot, by definition, exist in a world that is predestined.**

Yes, luck is an illusion, for those events that are predetermined. But not every single event is. Only the majorly important -- IE: ta'veren, and their... "subsidiaries" I guess (people/things that help get ta'veren goals).

**A weird outcome of this predestination thingy is that there should be no need for Ta’veren…because :

-everyone is already almost completely predestined…which is what the books suggest Ta’veren are.

-It should mean (because ta’veren do exist) that it is impossible for Ta’veren ‘to be bound tighter by the web’ etc…because everyone is already (almost) completely bound by the web.

-It should mean that Ta’veren have the same amount of choices as anyone…because everyone’s choices are already predetermined.**

Which is exactly why there is free will in the world, why there are ta'veren, and why their choices are severely limited in comparison to anyone elses (and anyone else still has limited choices anyway).

**The suicide argument is a simple one. For a person with free will - there are no if’s, no but’s - for it is quite literally impossible to prevent someone who truly wants to commit suicide from committing suicide**

Which is why you can say that Rand has no free will, essentially. Or you can just say that Rand doesn't want to kill himself, and never would due to his sense of duty.

But it all gets back to the same point: for ta'veren, there truly is no such thing as "luck" since their events are so important to the Wheel/Pattern that they have essentially no free will. Luck is an illusion for them.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-01

Hi Tam, thanks for the clarification on the mirror/dream worlds.

That does partly answer the paradox that is 'predestination'. It of course means, that RJ is not using the word 'predestination' in the traditional sense that we would use it, but rather, that people will be guided in certain directions...for if the dream worlds etc are reflections of what could be, then things aren't truly predestined (as we would normally understand it), but that there is a predestined plan, and the pattern guides people towards that plan...hence the possibility for variation...because free will still exists.

If that's the case, then luck would also still exist. The pattern could use a person's luck...but it wouldn't necessarily be the cause of it (talking about Mat here).

sogoloth: 2006-05-02

I agree with Call's last post here, its the best explanation of RJ's "predestined" world I've heard. It explains both free will and the limited choices of Ta'veren, as well as variations in the pattern from age to age.

Snakes said something I find interesting in his last post:

**that there is a predestined plan, and the pattern GUIDES (emphasis mine) people towards that plan...hence the possibility for variation...because free will still exists.

If that's the case, then luck would also still exist. The pattern could use a person's luck...but it wouldn't necessarily be the cause of it (talking about Mat here).**

I agree that an average person has luck, in that they are less bound by Wheel and thus have a greater degree of free will, and that the Pattern is far less concerned with what goes on in their lives. More is left to chance if you will.

Yet if that is so then no Ta'veren could have any luck at all, least of all ones so strongly Ta'veren as Mat, Perrin, and Rand are. They have little if any choice in the weave of their lives, since everything in the world at this point pivots off their actions/decisions.

To sum it up, if Ta'veren are the correcting mechanism for the Wheel, then they are essentially the counter balance to free will, since their actions:

a. Are pre-destined by the Wheel to keep the Pattern of the Age on course

b. Change the fates and life threads of everyone around them, curving chance to the Patterns required outcome.

Essentially, they remove the option of free will from everyone around them, including themselves. This is what makes them a corrective mechanism for the Pattern, and what allows the Pattern to obtain its objective for any given age.

I have previously been on the fence on this subject, but given the discussion of pre-destination and its implications, I have to side with Callandor on this one. Ta'veren don't have luck, they can't afford to. They are too important to the Wheel to allow them the luxury of free will or luck. Especially these three, upon whose shoulders the hopes of the world reside.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-02

Hi Callandor

**No, the centrally important events are predetermined. Rand taking Callandor, proving that he's the Dragon Reborn…**

I don’t know that Rand taking Illian must of necessity be predetermined (not that it matters really)….but events like Rand taking Callandor, and many other events he (and other Ta’veren) must do in order to fulfil prophecy…that they are predertimined is certainly something we can agree on…it’s the in between stuff we seem to disagree on.

On the DO one argument, I’ll have to side with Ozy to a certain extent…the Pattern doesn’t truly know what the DO is going to do (but it would have a pretty good idea…just not a perfect understanding of what the DO will do).

The pattern didn’t plan for something that could be it’s own destruction - there would be no point…unless the creators plan included a spanner in the works just for the fun of it (it WOULD make life more interesting for an immortal being)

However…the DO does have to go THROUGH the pattern (the bore) to effect the world….now I suppose that this bore could be like a hole in a dam…but (if a dam were sentient) as the water (DO) passes through, the dam gets some ideas of it’s characteristics, and it’s limitations…so to the pattern…

…and the pattern presumably can plan for the sealing of the DO…but I don’t think it planned at all for the tainting of saidin…remember This world is Predestined… logically in this world…the sealing should occur exactly the same as it has in the past.

The Pattern, because it is a creature of predestination, doesn’t want ANY change from the plan. I would say that a creature of predestination (the pattern) is incapable of planning for any other outcome than the outcome it is predestined to try and achieve…Yet circumstances happened that had never happened before (for a Major event), and the DO took advantage of it…the effects of free will I would say.

Now I do have a bugbear with my own argument here…Ishamael saying he and LTT had fought time beyond number, and it was just the same fight over and over again (or something to that effect)…which suggests that the DO has been free over and over again (but I can’t remember if that’s correct or not)

Hi Sogoloth

**Essentially, they remove the option of free will from everyone around them, including themselves. This is what makes them a corrective mechanism for the Pattern, and what allows the Pattern to obtain its objective for any given age.**

Unless the BWB or some other source says differently (I don't have the BWB), There is a quote somewhere in the books, in relation to peoples choices around Ta'veren that essential reads something like "they can't make choices they would not otherwise make of their own free will, even if only in exceptional circumstances". That's not the exact wording, but I can't find where in the book that is.

Also, I didn't quite follow your reasoning for why you believe that in a world with a predestined plan, Ta'veren can't have luck. If predestination in Randland is really a predestined plan, then it makes sense (to me) that the pattern can weave Ta'veren into a tighter pattern with fewer choices.

It also means the pattern can make use of peoples attributes, like channelling, or wolfbrotherness.

If luck for Ta’veren didn’t exist in Randland, there would be no need for the prophecy ‘Luck his Soul’.

Even people in Randland understand to some degree the cyclical nature of things (and therefore an amount of predestination)…the Prophecies of the Dragon at the beginning of each book, and the Great Serpent Ring are examples of this understanding….they also understand that Ta’veren are bound tighter to the wheel…so a prophecy like ‘Luck his soul’ would be the educated people of Randland if it didn’t help single Mat out in some way.

Without luck truly existing for Ta’veren, it should read more something like ‘luck their soul’.

Btw, even a person in jail has free will…limited choices…but still free will.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-02

Doh, it should ready :

**so a prophecy like ‘Luck his soul’ would sound silly to the educated people of Randland if it didn’t help single Mat out in some way.

Aryl: 2006-05-02

I agree with much on this board lately. It's interesting really. Now, to quote sogoloth. "To sum it up, if Ta'veren are the correcting mechanism for the Wheel, then they are essentially the counter balance to free will, since their actions: "

The whole "correcting mechanism" thing is interesting. If ta'veren are truly a correcting mechanism, then any given ta'veren could be specifically to correct certain issues. What if Mat was intended to throw some more chaos (or order, depending on how you look at it) onto the wheel. What if his luck is a way of pushing predetermination? What if he is supposed to balance some sort of "anti-luck" that happens to be out there? If any of these are accurate in any way, then maybe perhaps his "dicing luck" is actually Ta'veren. Hmm. Yet again playing dark ones advocate. Arrg.

Callandor: 2006-05-03

** don’t know that Rand taking Illian must of necessity be predetermined (not that it matters really)….but events like Rand taking Callandor, and many other events he (and other Ta’veren) must do in order to fulfil prophecy…that they are predertimined is certainly something we can agree on…it’s the in between stuff we seem to disagree on.**

Rand taking Illian is the way in which he got the Crown of Swords -- just one of the things Min, and prophecies, foretold.

**On the DO one argument, I’ll have to side with Ozy to a certain extent…the Pattern doesn’t truly know what the DO is going to do (but it would have a pretty good idea…just not a perfect understanding of what the DO will do).**

Then how did the Wheel/Pattern predict 3000+ years before exactly that the Dark One would cause the ghosts to appear?

**The pattern didn’t plan for something that could be it’s own destruction - there would be no point…unless the creators plan included a spanner in the works just for the fun of it (it WOULD make life more interesting for an immortal being)**

See, the thing you an Ozy are simply holding to far too much, is that you're viewing these events as events of destruction; not as events of change.

Of course the Wheel/Pattern wouldn't "plan" for it's own destruction -- that's ridiculous to even consider.

But it did plan exactly for the drilling of the Bore, it did plan for the sealing and how it happened, it did plan for the tainting of saidin, the same way it planned for the birth of Rand and all the auxilliary events before and after.

It's not planning for "it's destruction." It's planning, and carrying out, change.

**…and the pattern presumably can plan for the sealing of the DO…but I don’t think it planned at all for the tainting of saidin…remember This world is Predestined… logically in this world…the sealing should occur exactly the same as it has in the past**

Yeah, and what makes you say that it didn't?

And if the tainting of saidin was not planned by the Wheel/Pattern, how is it that the exact circumstances in order for saidin to be tainted were present at the time?

**The Pattern, because it is a creature of predestination, doesn’t want ANY change from the plan. I would say that a creature of predestination (the pattern) is incapable of planning for any other outcome than the outcome it is predestined to try and achieve…Yet circumstances happened that had never happened before (for a Major event), and the DO took advantage of it…the effects of free will I would say.**

The Pattern is open to changes; but if a change is too big from it's design, it simply will not accept it. Not every event has to follow the Pattern exactly. Just the ones centrally important to it's plans.

And I still don't get where you are getting the idea that the tainting of saidin, or the way the sealing was done, had never occured before or "this way."

**Now I do have a bugbear with my own argument here…Ishamael saying he and LTT had fought time beyond number, and it was just the same fight over and over again (or something to that effect)…which suggests that the DO has been free over and over again (but I can’t remember if that’s correct or not)**

The Dark One has never been free -- otherwise the world would be under his control. He's had "influence" upon the Pattern before.

**Also, I didn't quite follow your reasoning for why you believe that in a world with a predestined plan, Ta'veren can't have luck. If predestination in Randland is really a predestined plan, then it makes sense (to me) that the pattern can weave Ta'veren into a tighter pattern with fewer choices.**

It's this simple:

Ta'veren carry out the centrally important events that the Pattern desires -- they're the self-correcting mechanisms. Those events are planned and the Pattern will only accept it's own ways. There's nothing "lucky" in a completely plan set of events, the same way there's no free will in an event that is fated to happen.

**If luck for Ta’veren didn’t exist in Randland, there would be no need for the prophecy ‘Luck his Soul’.**

Please. If the Dark One weren't a noble, there'd be no reason to call him the Great Lord of the Dark.

**Btw, even a person in jail has free will…limited choices…but still free will.**

How great -- were not dealing with that in any way, shape, or form. We're dealing with events that have to happen a certain way, and are fated to happen that way.

sogoloth: 2006-05-04

Hello Snakes :)

***Unless the BWB or some other source says differently (I don't have the BWB), There is a quote somewhere in the books, in relation to peoples choices around Ta'veren that essential reads something like "they can't make choices they would not otherwise make of their own free will, even if only in exceptional circumstances". That's not the exact wording, but I can't find where in the book that is.***

I know what you're talking about - I can't remember the exact wording either heh. If I understand you here (and please correct me if I'm mistaken), you're saying that people's choices - ie "free will" - cannot be CHANGED by Ta'veren, only INFLUENCED. And I agree. How then does this fit with my statement that Ta'veren removes free will? Well here's how I see it. With people, there are no absolutes. In other words, people are capable of anything. Their choices are based on life's experiences, morals, and any other number of factors too numerous to list here. And that, essentially, is the key here. PROBABILITY is a large factor in free will, and probability is not an absolute. There is no way to say for certain what any one person will do with 100% accuracy. That’s where Ta’veren come in. They warp probability around them to generate the required outcome the Pattern needs. The degree to which they do this is generally determined by the strength of their “Ta’veren-ness”, as well as how probable it is that a person would do what the Pattern needs them to do anyhow. Also to be considered is how important the choice is to the Pattern. In other words if Rand needs Ny to do his laundry, it is highly improbable that she would – and she probably won’t, simply because she would not normally do it. Yet there is a POSIBILITY, no matter how miniscule, that she would. And that’s where Ta’veren comes into play. If the LB depended upon Ny doing Rand’s laundry (and lets assume that no one would know this fact) she would do it – despite the fact that the odds of her doing it normally are astronomically low - because that is what the Pattern needs, and Rand would be the Pattern’s catalyst for making sure that event took place. There is no way to say with 100% certainty what any person would or would not do, and Ta’veren use this fact to affect the outcome of the Pattern.

*** Also, I didn't quite follow your reasoning for why you believe that in a world with a predestined plan, Ta'veren can't have luck. If predestination in Randland is really a predestined plan, then it makes sense (to me) that the pattern can weave Ta'veren into a tighter pattern with fewer choices.***

Because Randland is NOT ENTIRELY predestined. Free will does exist, it just takes 2nd place to what the Pattern needs. So Farmer Joe could choose to plow his fields on Monday or Tuesday and it wouldn’t make any difference, unless that action/decision had a direct or indirect impact on what the Pattern requires for the Age. The Pattern dictates only those actions and decisions that directly or indirectly affect its required outcome. Anything that falls outside of those parameters is open game. That’s why Ta’veren exist in the first place, to make sure the Pattern achieves what it needs when the free will of people divert it from its desired destination (to put it in linear terms). That, also, is why Ta’veren have so much less free will than “normal” people. Following this reasoning, the stronger Ta’veren a person is, the less choices or free will they have. Also consider that the Pattern itself is not subject to the same rules people are – it knows when/if something is important to its desired outcome, and arranges things accordingly.

As for luck, Ta’veren’s luck is determined in the same manner – if a lucky or unlucky event happens to a Ta’veren it is subject to how important that event is to the Pattern’s desired outcome. Rand could trip and fall on his butt, an unlucky event that has no bearing on the Pattern’s required outcome. Yet if that fall meant that he would break his neck and die than the Pattern shifts chance so that he “gets lucky” and only falls on his butt. The reason Mat gets so lucky is that being a strong Ta’veren, his actions/decisions have a large impact on the people around him, either directly or indirectly. Consider that Mat NEEDS to be lucky – both to be a great battle master and for the sake of his men. They follow him for many reasons, but a lot of that is based on how lucky he is. If he wasn’t as lucky as he is, many men would not follow him. So Mat’s being lucky IS REQUIRED FOR MAT TO FULFILL THE ROLE THE PATTERN NEEDS OF HIM. This fulfills the prophesy “Luck his Soul” because he is lucky – as is required by the Pattern. The catalyst for his luck is his being Ta’veren. Remember one of the defining characteristics of being Ta’veren is the ability to shape chance. The stronger Ta’veren someone is, the stronger this capability is.

The reason that the other Ta’veren aren’t always noted for their luck (though at one point or another both Perrin and Rand have been noted to be lucky, though no where near the number of times Mat gets the reference. Please check the above posts, I believe Callandor has listed several instances of “lucky” references) is because they have other abilities that stand out and are identifiable to people – ie channeling and wolf brotherness. Mat doesn’t have anything like this, so the one thing people have to focus on is his luck. And again, Mat requires a great deal of luck to serve his purpose to the Pattern, so the Pattern provides him what he needs. The mechanism for this luck is his being Ta’veren.

JakOShadows: 2006-05-05

I was just thinking about all the examples people were throwing around and I thought of a perfect example that demonstrates predetermination in the pattern. At the end of tGH, when Rand and co. are trying to escape with the HoV, events occur in the exact way that require Rand to proclaim himself the DR. They were caught between two armies, Rand was trying to save Egwene, they needed to return the HoV, and the only way to successfully do that was to blow the HoV. In doing that, the dragon banner needed to be raised, and as a result, Rand needed to proclaim himself the DR. In reading that book, you could just feel all the events drawing him and everyone else to that moment at that place in the pattern so that the required circumstances could occur. Rand even mentions how it feels that there were strings tugging in different directions and he felt that major events depended on this decision. It was one of my favorite books for that exact reason, and I believe it is the best piece of evidence for predetermination.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-05

Hi All

Most every comment below is based on the belief (as it seems to be explained above) that the Pattern is a ‘creature’ (for what of a better word) bound to a calling – that is - keeping a predestined plan on track.

Hi Callandor

**Then how did the Wheel/Pattern predict 3000+ years before exactly that the Dark One would cause the ghosts to appear?**

Uh, cause it’s happened before. This is a circular timeline.

……..

See, the thing you an Ozy are simply holding to far too much, is that you're viewing these events as events of destruction; not as events of change.

The books say that the DO wants to break the wheel of time. The pattern exists as we know it as a circular cycle…breaking the wheel of time breaks that pattern – The Pattern. That’s destruction.

……..

**Of course the Wheel/Pattern wouldn't "plan" for it's own destruction -- that's ridiculous to even consider.**

Glad we agree on that.

………

**But it did plan exactly for the drilling of the Bore…***

Second time around we can certainly agree on that. First time around, the only way you can say that is if you also argue that the Creator programmed the bore into the Pattern.

……..

** it did plan for the sealing and how it happened…**

Of course it did

………..

**… it did plan for the tainting of saidin,…**

Not the first time…RJ even ‘implies’ LTT’s time may well have been the first time – though that is not a certainty.

If the Pattern is bound to keep a predestined plan on track, then every age repeats it’s relative age in the cycle before – RJ quite strongly suggests that that tainting either very rarely occurs, or has not occurred before…ie - it’s an aberration.

………..

** the same way it planned for the birth of Rand and all the auxilliary events before and after.**

Yes, it planned for Rands birth. That doesn’t automatically put the tainting the same boat.

…………

**…and the pattern presumably can plan for the sealing of the DO…but I don’t think it planned at all for the tainting of saidin…remember This world is Predestined… logically in this world…the sealing should occur exactly the same as it has in the past**

**Yeah, and what makes you say that it didn't?**

RJ – see above

……….

And if the tainting of saidin was not planned by the Wheel/Pattern, how is it that the exact circumstances in order for saidin to be tainted were present at the time?

Free will.

……….

**The Dark One has never been free -- otherwise the world would be under his control. He's had "influence" upon the Pattern before.**

Yup, my apologies, was obviously distracted when I wrote that. The DO has never been free 

…….

**Btw, even a person in jail has free will…limited choices…but still free will.**

**How great -- were not dealing with that in any way, shape, or form. We're dealing with events that have to happen a certain way, and are fated to happen that way.**

Actually we are talking about a similar situation – Ta’veren are in a similar boat. Some people are arguing that Randland people (and Ta’veren in particular) both have free will and that they don’t. Those people arguing that Ta’veren both do and don’t have free will (all at the same time) simply can’t have it both ways…a person otherwise has free will or they don’t.

The only way to truly remove free will from a person is to take over that persons brains (which would destroy anything that makes them human). A middle ground is not possible (unless you are saying the Pattern only takes over their brains ‘occasionally’)

But a person can have limited choices and still have free will. Ta’verens choices are very limited…but they do have free will.

--Hope I didn’t miss anything out there.

………………………………………………..

Hi Sogoloth

**If I understand you here (and please correct me if I'm mistaken), you're saying that people's choices - ie "free will" - cannot be CHANGED by Ta'veren, only INFLUENCED.**

Yes, that’s what I was saying 

Now, without reposting everything you said following that, It seems that you are saying that Mat’s luck is because he NEEDS to be lucky ?

If so, this comes back to the argument of “the Pattern Provides what is needful’ to Ta’veren (which is an argument for which I’ve previously posted my arguments against this line of thinking, so I won’t repost them).

But secondly…the Pattern readily uses any ability a person has to help fulfil it’s predestined plan (eg Perrin’s Wolfbrotherness for example – and many other peoples abilities)…so even with your line of reasoning…it doesn’t rule out Mat having an ability for luck….the only way to rule that possibility out is to say that The Pattern never ever makes use of a persons ability, and only ever makes use of it’s own web twisting abilities to provide Ta’veren with what they need (which is of course not true at all).

sogoloth: 2006-05-08

Hello Snakes! You asked:

***Now, without reposting everything you said following that, It seems that you are saying that Mat’s luck is because he NEEDS to be lucky ? ***

A: Pretty much, yes. I would say that is a major player in Mat's luck, assuming that his luck is really just a manifestation of his being Ta'veren.

***If so, this comes back to the argument of “the Pattern Provides what is needful’ to Ta’veren (which is an argument for which I’ve previously posted my arguments against this line of thinking, so I won’t repost them). ***

A: I should re-read your arguments against "the Pattern providing what Ta'veren need", though I will say that there appears to be plenty of evidence that the Pattern provides its Ta'veren with what they need in order to perform the functions they are required to perform. How else would they be able to achieve what the Pattern needs them to? If the Pattern doesn't provide what a Ta'veren needs, then how does it happen? I'm not following your logic here, can you explain?

***But secondly…the Pattern readily uses any ability a person has to help fulfil it’s predestined plan (eg Perrin’s Wolfbrotherness for example – and many other peoples abilities)…so even with your line of reasoning…it doesn’t rule out Mat having an ability for luck….the only way to rule that possibility out is to say that The Pattern never ever makes use of a persons ability, and only ever makes use of it’s own web twisting abilities to provide Ta’veren with what they need (which is of course not true at all).***

A: Hmmm, this appears to be a contradiction. The Pattern is providing these Ta'veren with their abilities, such as channeling and wolfbrotherness. It is the Pattern that dictates who gets what ability, isn't it? If so, than isn't it logical to say that the Pattern is providing it's Ta'veren what they need to do the job? It isn't like these abilities are just randomly appearing and the Pattern says "well, this guy/gal happens to have an ability I need to use so I'm gonna have to take advantage of that". No, the Pattern gives those threads - be they Ta'veren or otherwise - EXACTLY what they need in order to do what they were intended to do. And it knows what abilities people are going to get before they’re even born. Following this logic, it is the Pattern that gave Rand the ability to channel, because Rand NEEDS to channel in order to fulfill his purpose. Perrin NEEDS to be a wolfbrother in order to fulfill his purpose. And Mat NEEDS to be lucky. Is it possible that Mat's luck is an ability instead of sheer Ta'vereness? Of course it is. Honestly it is RJ's call on that one, he's the writer. But I just don't see how it would be logical for the Pattern to give an "ability" that does primarily the same thing that being Ta'veren does... affects chance in favor of the needs of the Ta'veren. It seems redundant and unnecessary.

On the subject of "Need", I remember a few of the postings on that subject. All had one theme in common: they concentrated on "immediate need" ie: the current situation as it pertained to the moment the Ta'veren was in. Now, certainly, "immediate need" would have to play a big role in a Ta'veren's life. But I think this is only part of a much bigger picture. I would not limit need to real time. In other words, only people view time as linear. The Pattern does not appear to view things that way. I would say that the Pattern provides its Ta'veren not just with their immediate needs, but also what that thread may need on the grand scale of things. I believe Mat's luck falls into this category. In other words, the Pattern sees that Mat's need for luck goes way beyond the immediate situations he finds himself in. So while Mat may or may not need coin for his army (an argument I've seen alot of references to), he needs the perception of great luck in order for his troops to follow and remain loyal to him. This “grand scale need” in turn feeds Rand's "grand scale need” for a general with skill beyond compare, and a unified army to back that general, experienced enough and confident enough in their leader to perform their required task for the LB. In my opinion, this scenario furthers validates the mechanics of Ta’veren and explains Mats abilities w/o introducing a new ability in the last book.

Khazhul: 2006-05-08

Here is some food for thought. If the boring into the Dark One's prison was not planned, then to what purpose was the Dragon's soul spun out for? He was born to do what he did, seal up the bore, and yes, even seal it up as badly as he did. I don't have LTT's timeline but I am pretty sure he was born before the bore was drilled. If that is true, I will have to say that the pattern planned/allowed the drilling.

Callandor: 2006-05-08

**Uh, cause it’s happened before. This is a circular timeline.**

Ah! Of course. So, your answer is that because time is circular, hence the Wheel of Time is a Wheel, the Dark One is bound by the Wheel, then?

Your entire point is that the Dark One is some uncountable force; that he has to choose to do these actions he does.

You said:

**On the DO one argument, I’ll have to side with Ozy to a certain extent…the Pattern doesn’t truly know what the DO is going to do (but it would have a pretty good idea…just not a perfect understanding of what the DO will do).**

Then how on earth is it even concievable, let alone demonstrated in the books, that the Dark One's actions are predicted 3000+ years in advance?

Simply saying "it's a circular timeline" isn't answering anything.

**The books say that the DO wants to break the wheel of time. The pattern exists as we know it as a circular cycle…breaking the wheel of time breaks that pattern – The Pattern. That’s destruction.**

Yeah, the Dark One wants to destroy the Pattern -- but the thing you and Ozy are doing is saying that because the Pattern/Wheel allowed for his prison to be drilled into, it's planning for it's own destruction.

It's not. The Pattern/Wheel is planning for change.

**Second time around we can certainly agree on that. First time around, the only way you can say that is if you also argue that the Creator programmed the bore into the Pattern.**

Who cares if it was the 51st or 1,025,653,321,763 time around? Even saying that you agree the Wheel/Pattern planned ONE SINGLE TIME for the drilling of the Dark One's prison completely negates your position that the Pattern/Wheel doesn't "plan for it's own destruction".

**Of course it did**

Hence bringing up the entire issue of why you can't see this as the Wheel/Pattern planning for change, not for "destruction." If it's planning for change, a thing it constantly does, how can you even begin to say that it doesn't have that change under complete and total control -- as we've seen and been told in the series?

**Not the first time…RJ even ‘implies’ LTT’s time may well have been the first time – though that is not a certainty.**

I'd really love to see you're certainty.

Again, whether it was the first time, the 5th, or the seven trillionth, it does not matter. The exact circumstances had to come about, and they did. The Wheel/Pattern brought them about. It PLANNED for it.

**If the Pattern is bound to keep a predestined plan on track, then every age repeats it’s relative age in the cycle before – RJ quite strongly suggests that that tainting either very rarely occurs, or has not occurred before…ie - it’s an aberration.**

I'd love to see this evidence that you keep using to speak for Jordan.

**Yes, it planned for Rands birth. That doesn’t automatically put the tainting the same boat.**

Well, let's show that this does put this exactly on the same level as the tainting. The Wheel/Pattern planned for Rand's birth, and all the events that came before it necessary for it come about. Why did it plan for Rand's birth? Because it knew the Last Battle was coming. Why? Because the Wheel/Pattern was allowing it to. Why? Because it is controlling change and carrying it out.

The tainting of saidin is easily see as completely planned for in the exact same sense as any major event that Rand carried out in the series. Why? Because it was so fundamental to the 2nd and 3rd Ages, and it had to be the exact circumstances that brought about the tainting and it did.

**Me: And if the tainting of saidin was not planned by the Wheel/Pattern, how is it that the exact circumstances in order for saidin to be tainted were present at the time?

You: Free will.**

This isn't even an answer, snakes. We have Jordan saying that the cirucmstances had to be exactly right, it was an event of singular importance of the Age and following Age, and the event that led to the sealing of the Dark One -- how is this "free will?"

**Actually we are talking about a similar situation – Ta’veren are in a similar boat. Some people are arguing that Randland people (and Ta’veren in particular) both have free will and that they don’t. Those people arguing that Ta’veren both do and don’t have free will (all at the same time) simply can’t have it both ways…a person otherwise has free will or they don’t.**

No, the thing is that they can have it both ways because we're told that they can:

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"**

If the changes are small enough not to have any effect, the person, even ta'veren, can have free will. At other times, when the events and decisions are of sounding importance to the Pattern/Wheel there is no free will in the decision becuase the Wheel/Pattern demands that events play out exactly as it desires.

The latter happens to a degree in ta'veren that it's essentially pointless to say that they have free will -- especially in Rand's case.

**The only way to truly remove free will from a person is to take over that persons brains (which would destroy anything that makes them human). A middle ground is not possible (unless you are saying the Pattern only takes over their brains ‘occasionally’)**

No, snakes, there is a middle ground -- we're told it explicitly. Ta'veren and normal people both have free will and both do not. They have free will with events that have room for change and the Pattern allows it; other times they will have no free will at all because the Wheel/Pattern demands actions to happen the way it desires.

**If so, this comes back to the argument of “the Pattern Provides what is needful’ to Ta’veren (which is an argument for which I’ve previously posted my arguments against this line of thinking, so I won’t repost them).**

And completely ignored the huge gapping wholes in them.

**But secondly…the Pattern readily uses any ability a person has to help fulfil it’s predestined plan (eg Perrin’s Wolfbrotherness for example – and many other peoples abilities)…so even with your line of reasoning…it doesn’t rule out Mat having an ability for luck….the only way to rule that possibility out is to say that The Pattern never ever makes use of a persons ability, and only ever makes use of it’s own web twisting abilities to provide Ta’veren with what they need (which is of course not true at all).**

You're essentially saying that the Wheel/Pattern just throws people's souls, with their abilities, into the mix and see what it can use at a later time. Forget what is needed to be done, Rand could've been a female wolfbrother and the Wheel would've been fine according to you -- nevermind that it's fundamentally necessary that Rand be a specific soul, with specific abilities, and so on.

You think it's chance that Perrin is a wolfbrother? I don't. Not for a moment. I specifically do not believe that it's chance that the Pattern just tossed this ability to Perrin at some way earlier point and only later realized "Hey, we can use this!" This Age allows wolfbrothers. Jordan has said that is not the case in all Ages:

**Week 13 Question: If a wolfbrother is reborn in another Age, will he be a wolfbrother again? In other words, is being a wolfbrother a trait related to the soul? Can women be wolfbrothers?

Robert Jordan Answers: Women certainly can be wolfbrothers, though the term would be wolfsisters. A wolfbrother or wolfsister reborn in another age would only be a wolfbrother or wolfsister again if that were possible in that Age. The ability to speak with wolves doesn't exist in every Age. In the "current" Age, it is a fairly new thing, appearing not too long ago. There are tales of it, sometimes just vague stories of people who supposedly "can talk to animals," without necessarily mentioning wolves, but remember that Elyas's ability was taken, at least by some Aes Sedai, as a sign that he was linked to the Shadow.**

It's frankly ridiculous to assume that the Pattern tosses everything to the wind, and then works how best to suit it's plans at a much later time. Perrin was born with this ability to be a wolfbrother. It was clearly planned. Rand was born a channeler, born with Lews Therin's soul. It was clearly planned. You're not only assuming that Mat has some other confabulating ability of "dicing luck" -- but further that it was a hodgepodge of Pattern decision to give it to him.

The Wheel/Pattern plans for every majorly important event to occur the way it desires. What occurs around Mat is a clear example of that planning. It's not "luck;" that's an illusion. It's ta'vereness.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-08

Hi Sogoloth

**A: I should re-read your arguments against "the Pattern providing what Ta'veren need", though I will say that there appears to be plenty of evidence that the Pattern provides its Ta'veren with what they need in order to perform the functions they are required to perform. How else would they be able to achieve what the Pattern needs them to? If the Pattern doesn't provide what a Ta'veren needs, then how does it happen? I'm not following your logic here, can you explain?**

Heh, no, my previous arguments weren’t that the pattern didn’t provide what Ta’veren need, as the Pattern does provide Ta’veren what they need. Rather my arguments were that Mat has had no consistent NEED to win, but that Mat’s dicing luck (in particular) is consistent (in that since Tar Valon he never ever loses more than he wins)

A: Hmmm, this appears to be a contradiction. The Pattern is providing these Ta'veren with their abilities, such as channeling and wolfbrotherness. It is the Pattern that dictates who gets what ability, isn't it?

There have been many arguments over this, but most agree that people that are born with abilities have those abilities tied to their souls. The question you are asking is “Did the Pattern make use of a soul with the wolfbrotherness to be Perrin…or Did the pattern give the soul that became Perrin wolfbrotherness at the time of his birth”. Personally I think the answer is the first option….the same question could be asked of Rand…did the pattern give Rand the ability to channel, or did it use him as the dragon because of his ability to channel (among other traits) ?

Also, when prophecy says “Luck his soul”…doesn’t that suggest to you that luck is tied to his soul, rather than the pattern suddenly plonking it in his lap?

I know that’s not all you wrote, but running out of time…have to go to work

………..

Hi Khazul

** Here is some food for thought. If the boring into the Dark One's prison was not planned, then to what purpose was the Dragon's soul spun out for? He was born to do what he did, seal up the bore, and yes, even seal it up as badly as he did. I don't have LTT's timeline but I am pretty sure he was born before the bore was drilled. If that is true, I will have to say that the pattern planned/allowed the drilling.**

LTT was born before the bore yes. However, LTT’s time wasn’t the first time the DO has been free. After the first time (and there WAS a first time… somewhere… sometime… but there was a first time the DO was freed). After that first time, the Pattern no doubt had to find a means of sealing the DO out again. And it seems that this pattern has been repeating itself over and over.

But say LTT’s time was the first time…the pattern would simply have made use of what tools were available to seal the DO away (as it would have had to do at the actual first time)…and that tool was LTT (if LTT’s was the first time)

Saidar Haran: 2006-05-09

Snakes,

Could you provide that quote? I don't recall seeing it and I think it's important. If the tainting occurs only rarely, though, then the Breaking occurs only rarely and therefore the entire Fouth(?) Age as we've seen it occurs only rarely, so I find this unlikely.

sogoloth: 2006-05-10

Hello Snakes!

You wrote...

***The question you are asking is “Did the Pattern make use of a soul with the wolfbrotherness to be Perrin…or Did the pattern give the soul that became Perrin wolfbrotherness at the time of his birth”.***

A: No, thats not what I'm asking at all. Honestly my previous post wasn't asking anything. I was simply using Perrin and Rand as examples to help substantiate my point. It was a rhetorical question. Here's what I'm getting at.

I don't believe it is really relevant whether a soul has abilities attached to it or if a thread receives those abilities at birth. That really is 6 of 1 half-a-dozen of another imo. What matters is the Patterns plans for a soul/thread. And the Pattern's plans for a Ta'veren are strict in that a Ta'veren is spun out for a very specific purpose, or several purposes. Ta'veren are supplied with what they need - either before birth "attached to their soul" or at birth, take your pick. The results are the same. It is NEED that drives a Ta'veren, need to accomplish their purpose for the Pattern. Mat's need for “luck” goes beyond any mere gambling. Please review my previous post for my thoughts on "Grand Scale Need", I believe it explains Mats dicing luck when considered in those terms. Whether any Pattern-granted abilities are given at birth or are attached to a persons soul are simply irrelevant imo. Certainly, it makes no difference in the Patten’s outcome. A thread has its abilities while being woven, regardless of when those abilities were granted.

You said:

***Also, when prophecy says “Luck his soul”…doesn’t that suggest to you that luck is tied to his soul, rather than the pattern suddenly plonking it in his lap?***

A: Possibly. Or it could simply be a poetic description of Mat, a person of prophesy, to help the wise identify him. It doesn’t mean that he has any abilities, it just means that’s how he’ll be recognized by people. Or, you could be right and it could mean exactly what you’re thinking. Thats the problem with Prophesy, its never clear until after events have transpired what exactly they mean. That is also why prophesy is a poor source for evidence on a matters such as this. There is simply no way to prove either opinion based on prophesy alone. However, when reviewed with all the other evidence presented by the books and our knowledge of the mechanics of Ta’veren within the pattern, I lean towards Mat’s luck being a manifestation of the affects of being Ta’veren. I don't feel that Mat had luck "plonked in his lap" at all. The Pattern had a purpose for Mat that requires him to be a great battle leader, perhaps the greatest ever, because Rand needs exactly that. And great battle leaders need to have 2 things in order to be successful:

1. A great deal of luck

2. The support and confidence of his/her men

Mat is “lucky” because the Pattern needs for him to be “lucky”. Not just at gambling, but all the time. The perception of luck is what helps bind his men to him, which in turn helps Rand have an army mighty enough to win the LB. Therefore, Mat needs to be “lucky” in order to perform the tasks required of him by the Pattern. This need is a “grand scale need”, and therefore is not reliant upon the immediate circumstances Mat finds himself in. The natural effects of being a Ta'veren are the manipulation of chance for to the required outcome of the Pattern. This would be construed by most humans as luck. Therefore, following this logic, Mat’s “luck” is a human interpretation of Mat’s inherent Ta’veren ability to shape chance as required by the Pattern. “Luck his soul” is still just a human interpretation of a figure of Prophesy. It is not proof positive that Mat has any ability separate from being Ta’veren. It is simply a description of how people will view Mat, put into terms that your average Joe/Jane can understand.

Callandor: 2006-05-10

**However, LTT’s time wasn’t the first time the DO has been free.**

Again, the Dark One has never been free.

**After that first time, the Pattern no doubt had to find a means of sealing the DO out again. And it seems that this pattern has been repeating itself over and over.

But say LTT’s time was the first time…the pattern would simply have made use of what tools were available to seal the DO away (as it would have had to do at the actual first time)…and that tool was LTT (if LTT’s was the first time)**

Uh huh.

1. As Saidar said, I'd really love to see some evidence for this, aside from just your suppostions.

2. Again, the Dark One has never been freed.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-11

Hi Sadar Haran/Callandor

Looking for that quote atm, but like most quotes it’s buried somewhere. If I remember right - basically someone asked RJ why the DO didn’t taint saidar at the same time as saidin, and RJ said words to the effect of “if he could have, the DO one would have tainted the female source as well, but he had to have a very select set of circumstances in order to taint the OP”. That’s not it exactly. I’ll keep looking for that quote.

Callandor, you hinted at this same quote

**We have Jordan saying that the cirucmstances had to be exactly right, it was an event of singular importance of the Age and following Age, and the event that led to the sealing of the Dark One --**

Perhaps you know where to find it?

Callandor

**Ah! Of course. So, your answer is that because time is circular, hence the Wheel of Time is a Wheel, the Dark One is bound by the Wheel, then?

Your entire point is that the Dark One is some uncountable force; that he has to choose to do these actions he does.**

The DO is outside the pattern… outside the pattern, the Pattern has no hold at all on the DO - but when the DO reaches through the bore into the pattern, then, to an extent, the DO is bound by the Pattern (otherwise he would be truly ‘free’). If the Pattern had complete control, then the DO would not be able to reach through at all…or… the pattern would not need to reseal the DO.

I made a ‘water going through hole in a Dam wall’ analogy a couple of posts back regarding the DO being bound to some extent by the pattern when he reaches through the bore into the pattern…not exactly the same, but close enough to paint a picture.

Also Callandor, you are using, to support your argument, the flawed idea that the Pattern is in complete control of all events central to it’s predestined plan. The Pattern is not in complete control…. If the pattern had complete control over events, then Ta’veren would not be needed.

…even by arguing that Ta’veren existing - the Pattern is showing complete control…once more…had it complete control…it would not need Ta’veren.

Free will is what stops the Pattern from having complete control.

Your quote **"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"**

Perhaps your understanding of ‘free will’ is different to mine. I see free will as the ability of a person to rationalise and make their own decision.

By that definition, the only way to not have free will is for someone/something else to do your thinking for you – ie, only automatons do not have free will.

Furthering that thought - even a person with a bomb strapped to his body (and a captor with a remote detonator) has a choice when told “Do xxxxx or die!” That persons are limited to ‘do xxxx, or dying’…so those choices suck…and that person may not want to make either choice…but that person can still rationalise which path he/she wants to follow…and he/she can still make a choice (to do xxxx…or to die…yes, people can choose to die). That choice is theirs to make…it’s the results that are likely to be unpleasant.

…Ta’veren are similar…they have few choices…but those choices are still theirs to rationalise and make.

…Of course if the above person didn’t have free will, then there would be no need for the threat by the captor…they would just do what the captor wanted. Much the same as with Rand.

… if Rand didn’t have free will…if Rand wasn’t able to rationalise and make his own decisions…then the Pattern wouldn’t need to go to extreme lengths to make sure certain things happened.

The Patterns influence/guiding and/or limiting of choices does not stop Rand (etc) from rational thought, deliberation, consideration, and eventually reaching his own decision (however heavily influenced etc)

So as I said, there is no middle ground…you otherwise have free will, or you don’t. There is no quote in the books, and you have shown no quote that says otherwise. People in Randland have free will, always.

**If so, this comes back to the argument of “the Pattern Provides what is needful’ to Ta’veren (which is an argument for which I’ve previously posted my arguments against this line of thinking, so I won’t repost them).**

**And completely ignored the huge gapping wholes in them.**

Not at all. Despite your trying to put words through hoops, and many many attempts to divert attention away from my arguments to things I never said (most of your first post was spent ‘answering’ things I never said)… I saw nothing you wrote that formed a strong argument against the case as a whole, nor anything that invalidated most of my arguments (a couple of things I wrote, I realised were wrong). So far, I know that I can read the books again and again, and I know I’ll always come back to the same conclusion…’the pattern provides what is needful’ is not responsible for Mat’s Dicing Luck.

**It's frankly ridiculous to assume that the Pattern tosses everything to the wind, and then works how best to suit it's plans at a much later time. Perrin was born with this ability to be a wolfbrother. It was clearly planned. Rand was born a channeler, born with Lews Therin's soul. It was clearly planned.

Yep frankly ridiculous to suggest anything otherwise…which is why in my last post I said just this thing. I’m not sure how you happen to misinterpret things I post quite so often.

**You think it's chance that Perrin is a wolfbrother?**

Not at all, the pattern chose him to be Perrin, knowing he had the ability to be a wolfbrother.

Just like the Pattern chose Mat knowing that he had the ability for luck ‘Luck his soul’.

….

You know, I personally don’t think the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument has done a very good job in this debate…but then I’m sure that some on that side will think the same of me….yet the simple fact remains that the Ta’veren argument hasn’t ever been able to substantiate RJ’s comment ‘when they say he has the DO’s own luck, Mat can get as angry as he want’s, but in a way it’s true” quote….

And further…if nothing else at all, the “luck his soul” prophecy specifically states Mat’s luck is tied to his soul. The more I think about this particular quote, the more I realise Mat was born with a luck ability…most likely just like Mins/Perrins/Hurins/Channelers etc etc etc…it comes on at a certain age in life… around the same time/age Rand and Perrin developed their abilities.

The ‘it’s Ta’veren’ argument’ simply can’t substantiate the ‘luck his soul’ prophecy…being Ta’veren isn’t tied to Mat’s soul…it will fade away when the Pattern is finished with him…being Lucky is tied to Mat’s soul…he’ll be lucky after the Ta’veren goes, otherwise ‘luck his soul’ cannot be true.

Callandor: 2006-05-12

**Question: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?**

I don't see how this is adding at all to your suppositions.

**The DO is outside the pattern… outside the pattern, the Pattern has no hold at all on the DO - but when the DO reaches through the bore into the pattern, then, to an extent, the DO is bound by the Pattern (otherwise he would be truly ‘free’).**

This is quite amazing.

You keep insisting that things the Dark One does are uncontrollable, unpredictable, and it seems the first time these things happened. Yet, you then say that because of how the Dark One has to influence the world, there is control over his actions -- which is exactly what I have been saying to you all along.

**If the Pattern had complete control, then the DO would not be able to reach through at all…or… the pattern would not need to reseal the DO.**

YET AGAIN, you're simply making your same old argument that "the Pattern/Wheel wouldn't weave it's own destruction." in a new form.

How is it that if the Pattern had complete control, the Dark One wouldn't need to go through it? The Dark One is the one trying to do this; the Pattern is simply allowing him to a minor degree to succeed, to forward change.

You continue to ignore the fact that the Wheel/Pattern weaves it's plan forward, and that plan is about change. The reason the Age of Legends and the 3rd Age are different is because there were changes that were instigated. The Wheel/Pattern brought those about.

**Also Callandor, you are using, to support your argument, the flawed idea that the Pattern is in complete control of all events central to it’s predestined plan. The Pattern is not in complete control…. If the pattern had complete control over events, then Ta’veren would not be needed.**

Hence the entire emphasis on "that the Pattern is in complete control of all events central to it’s predestined plan." Not all events are central to it's plan; some events can occur different, and the Pattern has room for it, and just takes them in and weaves on. I don't know how many more times I'm going to have to quote this:

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"**

There still is free will in this world; that free will will cause deviations in the Wheel/Pattern's plan to crop up eventually because even the small choices build up. That is why ta'veren are needed: to readdress the balance (IE: to put the Wheel/Pattern's plan back on easy street). It is these events, the ones central to the Wheel/Pattern's plan, that are predetermined and have no chance in hell of going any other way but exactly the way the Wheel/Pattern desires.

**…even by arguing that Ta’veren existing - the Pattern is showing complete control…once more…had it complete control…it would not need Ta’veren.**

Hence why it doesn't have complete control, which I have never said. It has complete control over events central to it's plan. Those are not all events. Get that into your head, because I've only been saying it for a couple of weeks now.

**Free will is what stops the Pattern from having complete control.**

No really. That's why it doesn't have complete control in all events -- because there is free will. That is why it does have complete control in the events central to it's plan -- because those events have no free will and will only happen the way the Wheel/Pattern desires.

**Perhaps your understanding of ‘free will’ is different to mine. I see free will as the ability of a person to rationalise and make their own decision.

By that definition, the only way to not have free will is for someone/something else to do your thinking for you – ie, only automatons do not have free will.**

Whatever your defintion of free will is, I don't care. This isn't your series. It's Jordan's. The quote explains exactly what is meant by free will in his world: "If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in."

That should be more than enough to satsify your criteria, it just has to be that the decision has no major impact immediately on the Wheel/Pattern's plan. But even if it doesn't, oh well, that's your problem that you need to work around in order to grasp this fundamental and simple aspect of Joran's world.

**…Ta’veren are similar…they have few choices…but those choices are still theirs to rationalise and make.**

Really? Please explain how in Tear in The Shadow Rising it got to the point that Mat wanted to leave Rand's side so much and couldn't that he couldn't even speak of leaving.

**The Patterns influence/guiding and/or limiting of choices does not stop Rand (etc) from rational thought, deliberation, consideration, and eventually reaching his own decision (however heavily influenced etc)**

And when have I said that the Wheel/Pattern controlling events central to it's plan, somehow makes it so that Rand cannot think?

**So as I said, there is no middle ground…you otherwise have free will, or you don’t. There is no quote in the books, and you have shown no quote that says otherwise. People in Randland have free will, always.**

False. There is a middle ground, and I quoted it explicitly to you.

Sometimes certain people in Randland have free will -- they can make choices that the Pattern has room to take in and just continues on.

Other times they have no free will -- the events are central to the Wheel/Pattern's plan, and will happen only the way it desires.

**So far, I know that I can read the books again and again, and I know I’ll always come back to the same conclusion…’the pattern provides what is needful’ is not responsible for Mat’s Dicing Luck.**

Saying you read them, and not commenting a single solitary thing about them, and then just blithely saying "Oh, I'm still self-assured of my position." How wonderful. Face up to what I wrote above about your incorrect view of this, or just move on and ignore it.

**Yep frankly ridiculous to suggest anything otherwise…which is why in my last post I said just this thing. I’m not sure how you happen to misinterpret things I post quite so often.**

Because it's this simple: you didn't say that.

**But secondly…the Pattern readily uses any ability a person has to help fulfil it’s predestined plan (eg Perrin’s Wolfbrotherness for example – and many other peoples abilities)…so even with your line of reasoning…it doesn’t rule out Mat having an ability for luck….the only way to rule that possibility out is to say that The Pattern never ever makes use of a persons ability, and only ever makes use of it’s own web twisting abilities to provide Ta’veren with what they need (which is of course not true at all).**

You're saying that the only way to stop your idea of Mat having this "dicing luck" is to show that the Wheel/Pattern provide everything for it -- something that I showed at great lengths originally and you so wonderfully ignored.

Given that you feel this is ridiculous, your taking a stance other than it. What's left? The Pattern just taking events and tossing them to the wind, and only doing anything far after the effect.

But if you agree that the Wheel/Pattern is planning for what Rand, Mat, and Perrin do, I have no problems; I'd thank you for finally coming around and accepting that your original notion is completely false.

**Not at all, the pattern chose him to be Perrin, knowing he had the ability to be a wolfbrother.

Just like the Pattern chose Mat knowing that he had the ability for luck ‘Luck his soul’.**

Right, it chose Mat to have this unknown, unexplained, unseen anywhere else ability -- instead of Mat's "luck" being nothing more than a mere illusion of ta'veren twisting of events.

**You know, I personally don’t think the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument has done a very good job in this debate…but then I’m sure that some on that side will think the same of me….yet the simple fact remains that the Ta’veren argument hasn’t ever been able to substantiate RJ’s comment ‘when they say he has the DO’s own luck, Mat can get as angry as he want’s, but in a way it’s true” quote….**

How does your answer explain it at all? Your answer isn't that fundamentally different than ta'verenness; you're just saying instead of it being all Wheel/Pattern, that they gave Mat an ability.

And if you want to discuss what theories apparently do not explain, please actually go through my comments that I made way back when this all started that you so perfectly ignored and have continued to ignore.

**And further…if nothing else at all, the “luck his soul” prophecy specifically states Mat’s luck is tied to his soul.**

Right, because it would have to mean that Mat has some unknown, unexplained, and further unseen ability instead of it just being that Mat would be associated with luck due to being ta'veren.

**The ‘it’s Ta’veren’ argument’ simply can’t substantiate the ‘luck his soul’ prophecy…being Ta’veren isn’t tied to Mat’s soul…it will fade away when the Pattern is finished with him…being Lucky is tied to Mat’s soul…he’ll be lucky after the Ta’veren goes, otherwise ‘luck his soul’ cannot be true.**

Of course, because this prophecy was dealing with Mat's "dicing luck his soul".... Oh wait, no it didn't.

Don't even try to pander off your view that this ability is effecting Mat's "dicing luck" only -- that's one of your central flaws with your view: it doesn't explain why Mat is "lucky" in other aspects, like battles, encounters that happen to him, etc. that ta'vereness explains and even anticipates.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-12

Hi Sogoloth

That’s fair enough. I have no true problem with your overall interpretation of Mat’s overall luck.

I do have a problem with any comparison of Mat’s Dicing Luck to what we do know of as Ta’veren luck. I do have a problem with your concept not explaining in anyway RJ’s ‘Mat’s luck is in a way, like the DO’s own luck’. And I do still have a difference of opinion with you re the luck his soul prophecy…

…See, I think you are missing the point when it comes to abilities attached to the soul. If an ability is attached to a persons soul, then it doesn’t disappear when Ta’vereness fades…if it’s just something given by the Pattern because the person is Ta’veren, then it will disappear when Ta’vereness fades (of course the absolutely proof of this, one way or another, will only ever happen if RJ shows scenes at the end of the book of after Ta’vereness has left Mat…unlikely).

…So further to that, if it’s an ability attached to the soul, then it’s an ability in addition to Ta’veren…but this doesn’t mean that ability won’t be used by the pattern - quite the contrary, the pattern is making use of many, many peoples abilities. The pattern making use of their abilities, doesn’t invalidate their abilities.

Now whether or not you wish to think of Prophecy as litteral and figurative…because ‘luck his soul’ is strongly suggestive of a permanent luck, and Ta’veren can come and go…then it really does appear to me that his luck is literally attached to his soul.

Hi Callandor

**1. As Saidar said, I'd really love to see some evidence for this, aside from just your suppostions.

2. Again, the Dark One has never been freed.**

1. Callandor, the concept of predestination is a philosophical proposition. It’s traditional concept is also a proposition that doesn’t stand up to any form of rational thought that follows it’s concepts through to their ultimate end.

However RJ’s idea (if it is his idea) of the Pattern keeping a predestined plan on track ‘only just’ stands up to any kind of scrutiny. Further, because it isn’t a concept of predestination as we would ‘traditionally’ understand it, and I think a lot of people are getting confused by that.

There have been posted quotes by RJ re predestination (in interview?), and book quotes, which you are using, for example, to say the pattern removes free will…but the interpretation ‘this shows that they don’t have free will in this circumstance’ is a matter of your (Callandor’s) philosophy on what free will is. To me it doesn’t show the removal of free will at all (as explained in my previous post).

Some/many of your disagreements with me on the predestination , is based on your philosophical concept what free will is. I don’t have a problem with that. You just need to recognise that what you are arguing (re free will, and possibly other arguments) is, in the end, based on a matter of your opinion.

You know…after the Creator created the world...there was a first time for absolutely everything (I’m sure you can agree to that). So there was a ‘first time’ the DO was ‘freed’.

Now, the only possible way you can argue that the ‘freeing’ of the DO (I using the term ‘freeing’ loosely) is predestined the first time around, is to argue that the creator programmed the ‘freeing’ of the DO into the plan that is ‘the Patterns predestined plan’.

If this is you are arguing, then I have no beef with that belief. I doubt it’s provable either way.

… but to me it seems extremely unlikely that the creator did this, for which reasons I’ve explained before.

It is my belief (and that’s all it is, because it’s not provable either way), that the first ever ‘freeing’ of the DO (whenever it occurred) was an aberation from the plan, able to happen because people have free will (and also possibly because the DO appears, even fully jailed to still have influence through the Pattern…re Merin announcement of a single source of power etc in LTT’s time…how did she know that, before the bore?)

…anyway…I could keep going on that track…but as you can see, it’s not backed up by book quotes, it’s just following a thought through to it’s end. The problem both you and I and everyone else face…is very little argument over this stuff, re the freeing of the DO actually proves anything one way or another…because it’s interpretation comes down to a persons philosophies/beliefs.

2. Each time I have used this term in the post you are quoting, it has been with the view of the people of Randland…in LTT’s time, he was ‘free’, in Rands time, the DO is getting ‘free’, and they fear him being completely ‘free’ . It’s so much easier to say ‘he’s free’ than ‘he’s free within the restrictions of the bore’. I wouldn’t have thought such wording would be a bone of contention for you, but oh well.

JakOShadows: 2006-05-13

snake-n-foxes:

Why is it so hard for you to believe that Mat being ta'veren isn't part of being lucky. Several people have given ample evidence that to serve his purpose he needs incredible. And being ta'veren, he will get what he needs. Why try and come up with a far more complicated solution? And if you are going to keep on saying that it is a different skill, I would like to see a little more than it is a different ability than ta'veren. If you can't substantiate what that other skill is at all, then it is hard to believe that it isn't ta'veren, for which we already have a good explanation.

JakOShadows: 2006-05-13

Sorry about the typo. This is what I meant to say.

"Several people have given ample evidence that to serve his purpose he needs incredible luck."

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-14

Hi Callandor

**Whatever your defintion of free will is, I don't care. This isn't your series. It's Jordan's. The quote explains exactly what is meant by free will in his world: "If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in."**

Jordan has not even attempted to define free will in this quote - He has simply talked about peoples choices, and the pattern limiting them.

The use of that quote to attempt to define free will is something done purely by yourself, using your own definition of free will.

**Really? Please explain how in Tear in The Shadow Rising it got to the point that Mat wanted to leave Rand's side so much and couldn't that he couldn't even speak of leaving.**

Truly the best argument you’ve shown to support your belief. And I don’t have any counter for this. ‘the pattern took over Mat’s mind!’. Now see, that fits what I was saying about free will.

Perhaps the only oddity being that this appears the only time we’ve seen this happen....then again, recently we've seen (with the swirling colours) that with practice the Ta'veren are able to resist. It may just be that Mat wasn't practiced at that time (or it may not be that at all).

**You continue to ignore the fact that the Wheel/Pattern weaves it's plan forward, and that plan is about change. The reason the Age of Legends and the 3rd Age are different is because there were changes that were instigated. The Wheel/Pattern brought those about.**

Okay, maybe I am missing something here. The Pattern is about Change? The Pattern is a ‘creature’ bound to keep a predestined plan on track…is it not?

If so, then the ‘change’ as you call it, is not change at all…but nothing more than the Pattern recycling old events from the previous cycle of the Wheel.

**You keep insisting that things the Dark One does are uncontrollable, unpredictable, and it seems the first time these things happened. Yet, you then say that because of how the Dark One has to influence the world, there is control over his actions -- which is exactly what I have been saying to you all along.**

It’s the degree of control that we seem to differ on. You say the Pattern has complete control over the DO, I say it doesn’t…but it does have some control, and it does have a good idea of what he’s going to do (seeing as it’s happened before).

**How is it that if the Pattern had complete control, the Dark One wouldn't need to go through it?**

You misread what I said. I said **“If the Pattern had complete control, then the DO would not be able to reach through at all…or… the pattern would not need to reseal the DO.”**

**Because it's this simple: you didn't say that.**

You know, I’ve finally figured out how you manage to misinterpret what I say so often. You are trying so hard to find ‘holes’ in what I am saying, that you end up not even reading the whole of what I write. I’m flattered, really. But you need to go back and look at the whole of the paragraph you quoted, to understand what it’s saying.

………………

Hi JakOShadows

Ta'veren Luck takes care of what Ta'veren Luck normally takes care of, Mat's Dicing Luck takes care of his Dicing Luck. What's complicated about that?

The only theory that needs to come up with an incredibily complicated line of reasoning to support it….is actually what the 'Mat's Dicing Luck = Ta'Veren Luck' Theory.

As I said right back at (or near) the very beginning, to me Mat’s Dicing Luck is likely to come from either an ability, or the Dagger, but that neither is particularly provable. But…suppose it is an ability (which I believe it is) :

1.1 Mat's Dicing luck doesn't exhibit balance...Ta'veren luck must...My theory offers a very simple explanation, But the MDL=TVL has to go to incredible lengths to try and explain this.

1.2 The books make it clear that Ta’veren Luck spreads out in odd random ways, and that luck never stays focused. My Theory offers a simple explanation for this. But the MDL=TVL explanation of this is full of complications.

1.3 Ta’veren luck varies in size over time, sometimes down to so small that Ta’veren (Rand in this case) don’t even notice the ‘effects’. Mat always notices his Dicing Luck. My Theory offers a simple explanation. The MDL=TVL theory once more has to come up with complicated explanations for this.

1.4 Prophecy say’s “Luck his Soul”. My theory simply agree’s with this. But the MDL=TVL theory, you have to come up with a convoluted explanation to explain it away.

1.5 RJ’s ‘In away Mat has the DO’s own luck’. My theory simply agrees with this. But MDL=TVL can’t explain this.

1.6 The number of times Mat’s Luck is highlighted over and above that of any other Character. My Theory offers a simple explaination. But the MDL=TVL theory really can’t explain why RJ highlights Mat’s Luck so much.

The big argument that MDL=TVL pulls out is the ‘pattern provides what is needful’…yet I have shown (to some degree…as some disagree) through many many examples, that Mat hasn’t had need to win consistently, and no need to win as much as he has. My Theory doesn’t need an argument that is doubtful to support it…the MDL=TVL does.

The latest argument is the predestination argument…and as you can see…there’s NOTHING more convoluted that that argument.

So, uh….my theory is very simple…it’s the MDL=TVL theory that isn’t.

Callandor: 2006-05-14

**See, I think you are missing the point when it comes to abilities attached to the soul. If an ability is attached to a persons soul, then it doesn’t disappear when Ta’vereness fades…if it’s just something given by the Pattern because the person is Ta’veren, then it will disappear when Ta’vereness fades (of course the absolutely proof of this, one way or another, will only ever happen if RJ shows scenes at the end of the book of after Ta’vereness has left Mat…unlikely).**

I don't for one minute believe that Rand is a channeler for any other reason than the Pattern knew, planned for, and made sure of him being ta'veren. Same thing with Perrin. Being ta'veren is truly the only ability "given" by the Pattern/Wheel that would fade once the Pattern/Wheel is done with them.

**…So further to that, if it’s an ability attached to the soul, then it’s an ability in addition to Ta’veren…but this doesn’t mean that ability won’t be used by the pattern - quite the contrary, the pattern is making use of many, many peoples abilities. The pattern making use of their abilities, doesn’t invalidate their abilities.**

Right, it just so happens that this "ability" is perfectly explained by ta'vereness and nothing else is needed at all to explain it.

**However RJ’s idea (if it is his idea) of the Pattern keeping a predestined plan on track ‘only just’ stands up to any kind of scrutiny. Further, because it isn’t a concept of predestination as we would ‘traditionally’ understand it, and I think a lot of people are getting confused by that.**

Yes, namely you treating this as if it's a world philosophical paper, instead of the world where it's Jordan's rules, Jordan's way, the real world be damned.

**There have been posted quotes by RJ re predestination (in interview?), and book quotes, which you are using, for example, to say the pattern removes free will…but the interpretation ‘this shows that they don’t have free will in this circumstance’ is a matter of your (Callandor’s) philosophy on what free will is. To me it doesn’t show the removal of free will at all (as explained in my previous post).**

Yet again, no. I am using Jordan's defintion of free will; you are using your own defintion, and claiming you have the right to do that.

Jordan's:

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"**

If there is room for change, a person has free will. If the Wheel/Pattern demands something happen the way it wants, there is no free will. You can argue that if they comply, and go along with the change (IE: they want to see these certain events), they're "freer" but the events are going to happen whether or not the person wants them to. Rand didn't want to proclaim to be the Dragon Reborn; events forced him to declare himself. Mat didn't want to go to Rhuidean; events forced him to go. Mat didn't want to marry Tuon (at least for a very long time); events still forced him to. Perrin certainly didn't give a damn about the Shaido originally; events forced him to be the one to destory them.

**Some/many of your disagreements with me on the predestination , is based on your philosophical concept what free will is.**

Yes, they are. I'm using Jordan's concept. You are not.

MY view of free will has absolutely nothing about the Wheel or Pattern at all -- but that's not what we're dealing with in this discussion. We're dealing with Jordan's view; I am using his words, his description of what a free event is. You are not.

** You just need to recognise that what you are arguing (re free will, and possibly other arguments) is, in the end, based on a matter of your opinion.**

**You know…after the Creator created the world...there was a first time for absolutely everything (I’m sure you can agree to that). So there was a ‘first time’ the DO was ‘freed’.**

No, I would completely disagree with that.

The Dark One has never been freed. There would be no series if he had ever been freed from his prison.

He has had influence before because his prision has been weakened before. But there is a great big difference between that, and him being "freed."

**Now, the only possible way you can argue that the ‘freeing’ of the DO (I using the term ‘freeing’ loosely) is predestined the first time around, is to argue that the creator programmed the ‘freeing’ of the DO into the plan that is ‘the Patterns predestined plan’.**

Or for you to understand that I am not in any way arguing that the Dark One has ever been freed.

**It is my belief (and that’s all it is, because it’s not provable either way), that the first ever ‘freeing’ of the DO (whenever it occurred) was an aberation from the plan, able to happen because people have free will (and also possibly because the DO appears, even fully jailed to still have influence through the Pattern…re Merin announcement of a single source of power etc in LTT’s time…how did she know that, before the bore?)**

If the Dark One had ever been freed, you might have something. But he never has been freed. Ever.

**The problem both you and I and everyone else face…is very little argument over this stuff, re the freeing of the DO actually proves anything one way or another…because it’s interpretation comes down to a persons philosophies/beliefs.**

You're right, it does. It comes down to one person's: Jordan's. He's explicitly stated his views in this world about determinism and free will -- I've quoted them to you several times in this thread alone.

**2. Each time I have used this term in the post you are quoting, it has been with the view of the people of Randland…in LTT’s time, he was ‘free’, in Rands time, the DO is getting ‘free’, and they fear him being completely ‘free’ .**

So don't use that because it is incorrect. The Dark One has never, ever, been free. Get it right.

**It’s so much easier to say ‘he’s free’ than ‘he’s free within the restrictions of the bore’.**

Maybe. It's easier to say "God feeds the plants" than to say "The plants photosynthesize radiation eminating from the sun and convert it into natural starchy sugars." Does it make it right? Absolutely not. Ease has nothing to do with this. Get it right.

**I wouldn’t have thought such wording would be a bone of contention for you, but oh well.**

Right, because it's so unimportant to speak correctly, use the concepts correctly, and show that you know what you are talking about.

Saying "the Dark One was freed" is incorrect. The Dark One has never been free. Ever.

sogoloth: 2006-05-15

Hello Snakes! Thank you for such a good debate, and for keeping it civil. Much respect :)

You wrote:

*** I do have a problem with any comparison of Mat’s Dicing Luck to what we do know of as Ta’veren luck. ***

The fact that you are separating Mat’s luck into two instances (“Dicing Luck” vs “Ta’veren Luck”) is based on an assumption that you are correct. Your theory is not a proven fact, therefore your assertion that this is an issue of conflict (and subsequently a mistake on my part) is illogical. My thoughts on “Grand Scale Need” address the concept of “Dicing Luck” vs. “Ta’veren Luck” as a point of discussion, and as a counterpoint to your theory.

IMO, “Grand Scale Need” is the Patterns’ way of providing its Ta’veren with what they need for the “Big Picture”. In other words, the Pattern does not see things in linear terms. The Pattern looks at the “Big Picture” so to speak, and arranges things accordingly. Now to apply this concept to Mat’s luck with gambling:

When Mat was a boy toy for the Queen, he had no need for coin. It has been contended in previous posts within this thread that this lack of “Immediate Need” for coin is proof for Mat’s “Dicing Luck”, since he didn’t “need” coin but won it anyway. This seems to be one of the primary basis’ for the theory that Mat has “Dicing Luck”, not associated with “Ta’veren Luck”. However, when the “Grand Scale Need” concept is applied, the “Dicing Luck” theory can be negated. How so? Because when Mat gambles the Pattern is providing it’s Ta’veren with what he’ll need LATER IN THE TIMELINE. That is, primarily, the perception of his men that he is lucky, thus they have a deeper respect for him and a deeper confidence that he will be victorious in his battles. This confidence in turn solidifies Mat as a leader, and fulfills his “Grand Scale Need” to be able to support Rand as a Battle Master with a seasoned, loyal army. It is the “Big Picture” that the Pattern is basing it’s Ta’veren’s needs off of, not the immediate situation the Ta’veren finds him/herself in. This concept still applies for “Immediate Need”, as the Pattern knows the needs of it’s Ta’veren long before the Ta’veren is in that situation, ie: before the need is immediate. So what appears as “Immediate Need” to a Ta’veren (and everyone else for that matter) is NOT immediate to the Pattern, since the Pattern already knows the Ta’veren will be in that given situation. This is how the “Grand Scale Need” concept negates the point of “Dicing Luck” vs “Ta’veren Luck” imo.

*** I do have a problem with your concept not explaining in anyway RJ’s ‘Mat’s luck is in a way, like the DO’s own luck’. ***

I’m so glad you brought this up!! This quote was why I was on the fence about this theory for so long, despite the fact that the quote is generic enough that it could be open to other interpretations. Don’t agree? Well then let’s examine the quote for a moment.

Robert Jordan Quote :

“When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.” [emphasis mine].

OK, so we could take that to mean what you’re thinking: that Mat has a “Luck” ability of some kind. Or we could take it to mean that the Pattern provides Ta’veren a way to counter the affects of the DO’s influence on the Pattern, just as they provide a counter-balance to Free Will. As a matter of fact, it is the same attribute that keeps both the DO’s influence and Free Will in check! How efficient! The DO can influence the world (not touch it directly, but INFLUENCE it) through various lives, as well as most recently the physical world itself. Ta’veren essentially do the same thing. So “in a way” the Pattern mirrors the “DO’s own luck” because it gives Ta’veren the ability to shape chance and affect the world around them, similar to how the DO influences the world and life threads of those who submit to him. This provides balance for the DO’s influence within the Pattern, as well as people’s free will, does it not? Tricky logic, but seemingly congruent with RJ’s thinking.

On a side note, I believe this to be the strongest point of your theory. However when the “Grand Scale Need” concept is applied to all the other evidence available to us, this points to it being “Ta’veren Luck” imo. And as I have shown above, the RJ quote is open to interpretation. Therefore, unless I see a direct quote from RJ specifically stating that Mat has an extra “Luck” ability, it must be taken into context as circumstantial evidence and is thus dismissed based on its ambiguity.

I would be interested in hearing if anyone has asked RJ point blank about Mat’s luck, or to clarify his previous statement. Even if we get a RAFO I would grant this quote a lot more weight in terms of applying it as evidence to this theory. Until such time, I don’t consider it to hold enough weight to merit proof positive.

*** And I do still have a difference of opinion with you re the luck his soul prophecy… ***

You seem to be basing your counterpoint on the supposition that your interpretation of the prophesy “Luck His Soul” is correct. I have a different interpretation of this prophesy. I believe that this simply refers to how Mat will be known, or how he will be recognized for who he is. Both interpretations COULD be valid. However, since neither interpretation can be confirmed at this time, this prophesy cannot be considered as valid evidence to support either of us. As I have stated in a previous post, prophesy is a poor source of evidence as it is far to open to interpretation. It could be proof of your theory or it could simply be a description of Mat that would allow the Wise to recognize him. It doesn’t substantiate either theory (“Dicing Luck” vs. “Ta’veren Luck”). Because of this ambiguity, it must also be considered circumstantial evidence and cannot be considered as proof of anything either way.

*** …See, I think you are missing the point when it comes to abilities attached to the soul. If an ability is attached to a persons soul, then it doesn’t disappear when Ta’vereness fades…***

I don’t believe I am missing your point, I just don’t see this particular point as relevant to this discussion. You ascertain that your interpretation of the prophesy “Luck His Soul” qualifies your idea that abilities are tied to a person’s soul. Maybe its true, maybe it isn’t. Either way it has no apparent bearing on how the Pattern uses people – and subsequently their abilities – while they’re being woven into the Tapestry of the Age. Once a person is being “spun” within the Pattern their abilities become relevant, not until then. Unless they’re bound to the Horn of course.

Actually I agree with you that abilities and/or Talents are probably bound to a soul, simply because of the Horn. But I believe you are missing the point (right back at ya =P) in that whether they have these abilities attached to their soul or are granted these abilities when being born simply bears no relevance to this theory. It just doesn’t matter when the abilities were granted, only that they exist and that the Pattern makes use of them. Again, you are making a supposition that your interpretation of the “Luck His Soul” prophesy is correct. You have no way of proving that it is, any more than I have proof that it isn’t. Therefore it cannot be used as evidence for either of us.

*** …if it’s just something given by the Pattern because the person is Ta’veren, then it will disappear when Ta’vereness fades (of course the absolutely proof of this, one way or another, will only ever happen if RJ shows scenes at the end of the book of after Ta’vereness has left Mat…unlikely). ***

This seems to be a pretty big jump of supposition. If you can provide proof great. If not, supposition is not evidence, sorry :)

*** …So further to that, if it’s an ability attached to the soul, then it’s an ability in addition to Ta’veren…***

I don’t see how you can make that jump here either. Especially since it seems likely that anyone bound to the Horn is very likely required to be Ta’veren. At least those Hero’s we’ve been exposed to have all been Ta’veren. Not the “smaller” Ta’veren either (Ta’veren for a day – sounds like some kinda contest prize or something), the “big” ones whose whole adult lives affect the outcome of the Pattern. These Horn-bound Ta’veren never have their Ta’veren abilities fade, at least from what we’ve been shown so far.

In regards to being Ta’veren fading from a person... this is true for some Ta’veren, but not all. Artur Hawking never had his… Ta’vereness… fade from him. Neither did LTT. Both are also bound by the Horn… interesting in and of itself. Could it mean that any soul bound by the Horn is Ta’veren their whole lives (once it manifests itself, anyways)? Possibly, but that would be a discussion for a different thread.

*** …but this doesn’t mean that ability won’t be used by the pattern - quite the contrary, the pattern is making use of many, many peoples abilities. The pattern making use of their abilities, doesn’t invalidate their abilities. ***

I never said that the Pattern didn’t make use of their (or anyone’s) abilities, nor did I say that the Pattern making use of them invalidates their abilities. Honestly, I’m not sure what you were trying to convey here. Can you explain?

In summation I believe your counterpoints all revolve around your assumption that your interpretation of the “Luck His Soul” prophesy is correct. Also, you have given a lot of weight to an RJ quote that imo can easily be interpreted in different ways. Unless you can provide proof that validates your suppositions, I cannot agree with your theory. Though I will say that you did – and continue to do – an excellent job collecting evidence, as well as presenting it logically.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-15

Callandor quotes :

**Yet again, no. I am using Jordan's defintion of free will; you are using your own defintion, and claiming you have the right to do that**

**Yes, they are. I'm using Jordan's concept. You are not.**

**MY view of free will has absolutely nothing about the Wheel or Pattern at all -- but that's not what we're dealing with in this discussion. We're dealing with Jordan's view; I am using his words, his description of what a free event is. You are not.**

**You're right, it does. It comes down to one person's: Jordan's. He's explicitly stated his views in this world about determinism and free will -- I've quoted them to you several times in this thread alone.**

Sadly, no Callandor - the quote you supplied had nothing to do with free will (my last post also pointed this out)

You have been applying your own philsophy of free will to this quote, and claiming Jordan said it...he did not.

Jordan hasn’t made any quotes about lack of free will in Randland that I have seen.

This is the quote you are using :

***"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"***

It talks simply about limited choice...not about the removal of free will.

….

SnF said **2. Each time I have used this term in the post you are quoting, it has been with the view of the people of Randland…in LTT’s time, he was ‘free’, in Rands time, the DO is getting ‘free’, and they fear him being completely ‘free’ .**

Callandor’s replies

**The Dark One has never been freed. There would be no series if he had ever been freed from his prison.**

**If the Dark One had ever been freed, you might have something. But he never has been freed. Ever.**

**So don't use that because it is incorrect. The Dark One has never, ever, been free. Get it right.**

Interesting, hasn’t Jordan used the term ‘free’ in the books quite a bit? Aren’t the people of the current age worried about the DO getting ‘free’ when all the seals are broken? Are you also going to tell Jordan to get it right?

Callandor, my use the use of the word ‘free’, is truly quite easy to understand – it’s a relative term.

It doesn’t need explaining to understand it…absolutely everyone knows the DO has never truly been free…the DO has been ‘free’ in Randland can only ever be a relative term…see…simple.

Given that, I can only presume that the reason you ‘don’t understand’ what I’m saying is that you choose not to understand.

In the end, I see no reason to change what I’m saying.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-15

I said :

**See, I think you are missing the point when it comes to abilities attached to the soul. If an ability is attached to a persons soul, then it doesn’t disappear when Ta’vereness fades…if it’s just something given by the Pattern because the person is Ta’veren, then it will disappear when Ta’vereness fades (of course the absolutely proof of this, one way or another, will only ever happen if RJ shows scenes at the end of the book of after Ta’vereness has left Mat…unlikely).**

Callandor Said :

**I don't for one minute believe that Rand is a channeler for any other reason than the Pattern knew, planned for, and made sure of him being ta'veren. Same thing with Perrin. Being ta'veren is truly the only ability "given" by the Pattern/Wheel that would fade once the Pattern/Wheel is done with them.**

I’m glad we agree on that, even if I was talking to Sogoloth.

….

I said :

**…So further to that, if it’s an ability attached to the soul, then it’s an ability in addition to Ta’veren…but this doesn’t mean that ability won’t be used by the pattern - quite the contrary, the pattern is making use of many, many peoples abilities. The pattern making use of their abilities, doesn’t invalidate their abilities.**

Callandor said :

**Right, it just so happens that this "ability" is perfectly explained by ta'vereness and nothing else is needed at all to explain it.**

As your answer doesn’t actually make any remark about the quote to which you were replying, I’ll presume you agree with what I said.

(Certainly there’s enough book proof that it’s correct – Rand, Egwene, Perrin, Min, Hurin are all obvious examples of it.)

But in reply to your answer…the MDL=TVL theory is full of debatable holes, and dubious support. It’s attempts to explain away the many inconsistencies is of necessity, very convoluted indeed.

The simplest answer, is that Mat has an ability for luck. ‘Mat has an ability for luck’ needs nothing further said….as it matches all the criteria…

…the MDL=TVL theory needs an incredible amount of putting events through hoops and loops to substantiate it.

…but as Jordan hasn’t exactly come right out and said ‘Mat has an ability for luck’…it’s downfall is that it isn’t provable.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-16

Hi Sogoloth, great debating points !

**It has been contended in previous posts within this thread that this lack of “Immediate Need” for coin is proof for Mat’s “Dicing Luck”, since he didn’t “need” coin but won it anyway. This seems to be one of the primary basis’ for the theory that Mat has “Dicing Luck”, not associated with “Ta’veren Luck”.**

Hey, it’s about time the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument’ recognised the overall need. They have been forever arguing ‘he needed money to get out of Tar Valon, he needed Money for the Armies, He needed money to be accepted by the lords etc etc”. Now those are quite easy to argue against, but the overall ‘need’ isn’t. Heh, of course, Mat has still won a great deal more than he ever needed (he gave a great deal away to Luca. He won much more than he needed at the time in Tar Valon – ie he could have won it at a steadier rate and still ended up with the same, from gambling in Carhein, Tear, with the Aiel etc etc …but that’s just a side issue really)

“When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.” [emphasis mine].

**OK, so we could take that to mean what you’re thinking: that Mat has a “Luck” ability of some kind. Or we could take it to mean that the Pattern provides Ta’veren a way to counter the affects of the DO’s influence on the Pattern, just as they provide a counter-balance to Free Will.**

Ah…you are applying this to all Ta’veren now? Yet Mat is the only Ta’veren to receive this comment in the books – and multiple times at that. Mat is the sole person to be singled out by RJ in the interview, re this type of luck. Mat is the one RJ consistently singles out with mentions of luck in the books. Mat is the one where prophecy says ‘luck his soul’….to me it’s fairly obvious this comment was meant for Mat, and Mat alone – not all three Ta’veren.

**I would be interested in hearing if anyone has asked RJ point blank about Mat’s luck, or to clarify his previous statement.**

Hasn’t been asked unfortunately. The question asked re that, was about whether or not Lanfear gave Mat his luck.

**You seem to be basing your counterpoint on the supposition that your interpretation of the prophesy “Luck His Soul” is correct. I have a different interpretation of this prophesy.**

Heh, everyone has to base their argument on something, don’t they ? I’ve no problem with you having a different interpretation, however, as I said – if Mat’s luck wasn’t attached to his soul…if his luck faded after Ta’veren faded…then the prophecy wouldn’t be true.

***But I believe you are missing the point (right back at ya =P) in that whether they have these abilities attached to their soul or are granted these abilities when being born simply bears no relevance to this theory. It just doesn’t matter when the abilities were granted, only that they exist and that the Pattern makes use of them.***

Further on you wrote :

**I never said that the Pattern didn’t make use of their (or anyone’s) abilities, nor did I say that the Pattern making use of them invalidates their abilities. Honestly, I’m not sure what you were trying to convey here. Can you explain?**

Heh, it’s relevance is…if you are trying to invalidate my belief that Mat’s ability is inborn…then you can’t if you agree that people can be born with abilities, and the Pattern can make use of them.

However, as I’ve pointed out previously…Mat having an extra ability, simplifies things a great deal. It’s the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument’ that makes things complicated and murky.

……

*** …if it’s just something given by the Pattern because the person is Ta’veren, then it will disappear when Ta’vereness fades (of course the absolutely proof of this, one way or another, will only ever happen if RJ shows scenes at the end of the book of after Ta’vereness has left Mat…unlikely). ***

This seems to be a pretty big jump of supposition.**

You’ll have to explain further…that quote contains a double supposition – the first IF it’s something given by the pattern, and the second supposition (which hinges on the first) that it will disappear when Ta’vereness Dissappears.

Heh…actually…I’m not sure what you are arguing anymore…are you arguing that Mat’s Dicing Luck is indeed an ability, and that the ability doesn’t matter? Or are you arguing that Mat’s luck is purely Ta’veren based, with no ability involved?

…….

I Said *** …So further to that, if it’s an ability attached to the soul, then it’s an ability in addition to Ta’veren…***

Sogo said **I don’t see how you can make that jump here either. Especially since it seems likely that anyone bound to the Horn is very likely required to be Ta’veren.

That’s not a jump at all. Ta’veren isn’t attached to the soul. The Pattern gives Ta’vereness to people whom it has plans for. They are predestined to be Ta’veren, but it’s not attached to the soul, and it can fade. If an ability is attached to the soul…then as far as we know, it never fades, and it is an ability in addition to being Ta’veren…once more, Rand’s channelling ability, and Perrin’s wolfbrotherness are prime examples.

**In regards to being Ta’veren fading from a person... this is true for some Ta’veren, but not all. Artur Hawking never had his… Ta’vereness… fade from him.**

The histories do suggest that Artur Hawkwing was always Ta’veren. First we have to recognise history gets warped…Thom Merrilon stated this very thing to Elayne – something along the lines of ‘Do you really believe that Artur Hawkwing fought 100 duels in one day?”. Second, the Histories don’t actually say whether he was Ta’veren his whole life or not, just that he was the greatest Ta’veren since LTT.

This actually brings me to a question I’d always wondered about…are Kings/Queens considered Ta’veren ? An Emporor like Artur Hawkwing would certainly seem to me to match the Ta’veren description.

You mentioned something about the Horn being tied to Mat’s soul…I didn’t quite follow the argument there…

Callandor: 2006-05-16

**Sadly, no Callandor - the quote you supplied had nothing to do with free will (my last post also pointed this out)

You have been applying your own philsophy of free will to this quote, and claiming Jordan said it...he did not.**

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern

"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"**

**It talks simply about limited choice...not about the removal of free will.**

Right.... Because the limitation of choice, including the explicit statement that some situations have to be a certain way, is in NO WAY dealing with free will. No, not at all.

**Interesting, hasn’t Jordan used the term ‘free’ in the books quite a bit? Aren’t the people of the current age worried about the DO getting ‘free’ when all the seals are broken? Are you also going to tell Jordan to get it right?**

Yes, they're worried that the Dark One will get free with the seals being broken -- but there being no seals doesn't mean the Dark One is immediately "freed".

Dark One being freed = Dark One has escaped his prison.

Seals being broken = Dark One is back to the same amount of influence he had at the Age of Legends (when he wasn't free).

**Callandor, my use the use of the word ‘free’, is truly quite easy to understand – it’s a relative term.**

The Dark One has never been freed. Ever.

**It doesn’t need explaining to understand it…absolutely everyone knows the DO has never truly been free…the DO has been ‘free’ in Randland can only ever be a relative term…see…simple.**

If everyone knows the Dark One has never been freed, why are you using it?

**But in reply to your answer…the MDL=TVL theory is full of debatable holes, and dubious support. It’s attempts to explain away the many inconsistencies is of necessity, very convoluted indeed.

The simplest answer, is that Mat has an ability for luck. ‘Mat has an ability for luck’ needs nothing further said….as it matches all the criteria…**

Would you mind explaining these "holes" that are so debatable? I've seen absolutely nothing that you have presented that even comes close to being "debatable" in this discussion; there's just you willfullying ignoring given evidence.

**…the MDL=TVL theory needs an incredible amount of putting events through hoops and loops to substantiate it.**

Uh huh.

So, would you mind explaining how Mat tripping to avoid being killed by the gholam is "Mat's dicing luck?"

I have yet to see any explanation for any given situation that can be explained as "Oh, it's dicing luck there."

On the other hand, any situation of singular "oddness," a situation that would make anyone seeing it declare "That's one lucky bastard!", can be perfectly explained by nothing other than Mat is ta'veren. But you keep peddling this belief as if you're proving holes in this fundamental aspect of ta'vereness.

dwilson: 2006-05-17

If you look at this from the perspective of actually writing a book, it makes logical sense that you would give each character their own special ability above and beyond the common ability of all being ta'veren, so as we know - rand has channeling, perrin is a wolfbrother, and mat IS lucky. There has been alot of "vivid discussion" in here about whether mat's "luckiness" is tied to his soul and or to the pattern directly - or not.

I would like to propose an alternate source of mats luck, mats luck is tied to the dark one. My direct evidence to support this theory is 2 seperate acts by 2 forsaken, and 2 circumstantial points.

the first point of evidence is that in the EOTW it is highly suggested/indicated that mat drunk from the cup that ishmael gave him to drink in his dream.

the second point of evidence is that it is highly probably that lanfear cast some type of spell at him when he was recovering at tar valon - i think its in TDR. after that incident his luck increased substantially in the taverns etc around tar valon.

(sorry i cant quote as dont have books handy)

the first circumstantial point is only really to show that mat has some connection to the dark one not that the dark one has made him lucky.

So that is that in i think LOC he is attacked by aiel warriers that arrive via a gateway in the middle of murandy whilst him and the band are on the moove at 45 miles per day - so it makes sense that they have must have known where exactly to position the gateway "right at his tent" by some kind of exact science - hence the link.

the second circumstantial point is that we have seen that there is a common saying in this age of the "dark ones own luck" like the snakes and foxes sayings, it can be postulated that once upon a time that saying the dark ones own luck stemmed from an actual incident or known behavour. so when you look at the incidents from both ishmael and lanfear and the fact that mat IS lucky its another bit of supporting evidence.

Callandor: 2006-05-19

**Hey, it’s about time the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument’ recognised the overall need. They have been forever arguing ‘he needed money to get out of Tar Valon, he needed Money for the Armies, He needed money to be accepted by the lords etc etc”. Now those are quite easy to argue against, but the overall ‘need’ isn’t.**

That's funny, you have yet to give a convincing reason why Mat wouldn't need money for any of the reasons presented before.

**Yet Mat is the only Ta’veren to receive this comment in the books – and multiple times at that.**

I don't know how many times I have to keep quoting where the "Dark One's luck" is attributed to many people throughout the series.

**Hasn’t been asked unfortunately. The question asked re that, was about whether or not Lanfear gave Mat his luck.**

Hence why Mat was "singled out" by Jordan.

**However, as I’ve pointed out previously…Mat having an extra ability, simplifies things a great deal. It’s the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument’ that makes things complicated and murky.**

How so?

You're supposed "ability" of "dicing luck" for Mat is only used to explain his dicing luck -- something that's completely unneeded to be explained away with the ta'vereness argument. You still fall back on "Well, it's ta'veren" on points such as how Mat survived the situations he has been in, how Mat is so "lucky" in battles, and how Mat gets what he needs in situations that do not utilize dice.

You're just saying "If it involves dice, it's dicing luck. If it's something else, it's ta'veren."

How does saying "Whatever is "lucky" for Mat is truly ta'veren effect." more complicated or murky than your completely unneeded and plain fabrication of "dicing luck?" You're supposing a completely new ability for to explain for something that needs no explanation beyond that Mat is ta'veren.

**The histories do suggest that Artur Hawkwing was always Ta’veren. First we have to recognise history gets warped…Thom Merrilon stated this very thing to Elayne – something along the lines of ‘Do you really believe that Artur Hawkwing fought 100 duels in one day?”. Second, the Histories don’t actually say whether he was Ta’veren his whole life or not, just that he was the greatest Ta’veren since LTT.**

Or you have to actually realize that people can become ta'veren and never lose it until they die because they never go out of the use for the Wheel/Pattern's plan. Rand is not going to have his ta'vereness fade from him for just this reason -- he's going to die at the specific time with the Wheel/Pattern is done with him and not a moment before.

Rand wasn't always ta'veren, but it won't fade from him either.

**This actually brings me to a question I’d always wondered about…are Kings/Queens considered Ta’veren ?**

Some are, but it's not a requirement to be a King or Queen you have to be ta'veren. Elayne is now a Queen, and she is not ta'veren. Egwene is Amyrlin, and has been for a long time, and we know she is not ta'veren.

Aryl: 2006-05-19

Hi again everyone.

Since this seems to have turned into a destiny debate, I have something to add on that matter. I don't think that "destiny" and free will oppose each other. This links into my belief on the wheel. I think that the wheel is like a wheel on a wagon, that it travels and travels, it turns and turns. Over time it begins to erode. And every once in awhile it needs some repairing. Thats where our ta'veren come along. They don't need to remake it, just adjust it, repair it. They have the skills to do so. But just like any repairman, they have their own ways of doing things. It's my opinion that ta'veren have the tools for the job. Will they succeed? That depends on what they CHOSE. Free will. Inside of destiny. They were destined to be, but their actions are their own. The prophecies, are not necessarily prophecies, but histories of countless dragons who have come before etc. The prophecies vary, depending on when they were written. The pattern reuses souls, this we know. Who knows if the previous souls did some of the prophetic actions? Now to get back on the luck thing, it's both ta'veren, and it's not. He has always been lucky. Is this him being ta'veren? Partly. Remember (Pardon the lack of quote) when the "bubble" in the pattern made Mat's cards come alive? I think this was the pattern's way of staying away from cards, and listen to the dice. (Most of this is ramblings I must admit, from a tired and sickly man here. However I stand by my opinion) Thanks for reading.

Callandor: 2006-05-21

**the first point of evidence is that in the EOTW it is highly suggested/indicated that mat drunk from the cup that ishmael gave him to drink in his dream.**

If you take not acknowledging the subject to be suggestive, sure.

This is nothing other than circumstantial, and very tenuous even if it did play out.

**the second point of evidence is that it is highly probably that lanfear cast some type of spell at him when he was recovering at tar valon - i think its in TDR. after that incident his luck increased substantially in the taverns etc around tar valon.**

No. Jordan has said expressly that Lanfear is not the source of Mat's "luck."

**So that is that in i think LOC he is attacked by aiel warriers that arrive via a gateway in the middle of murandy whilst him and the band are on the moove at 45 miles per day - so it makes sense that they have must have known where exactly to position the gateway "right at his tent" by some kind of exact science - hence the link.**

Is there such a link with Rand as well? The Forsaken were able to know where Rand was quite well on several occasions.

There's a very simple way: Darkfriends. They're in just about every location of society, so it seems quite strange not to assume there isn't at least one Darkfriend in the Band of the Red Hand.

**the second circumstantial point is that we have seen that there is a common saying in this age of the "dark ones own luck" like the snakes and foxes sayings, it can be postulated that once upon a time that saying the dark ones own luck stemmed from an actual incident or known behavour.**

And people call Rand the Light made flesh, is that going to be taken as true? People have said Rand has had the Dark One's own luck before, as well. Does Rand have this same connection that Mat does? Or is it just a saying that people say and there is no such connection?

**But just like any repairman, they have their own ways of doing things. It's my opinion that ta'veren have the tools for the job. Will they succeed? That depends on what they CHOSE. Free will. Inside of destiny. They were destined to be, but their actions are their own.**

Which does not fit into what we know and more importantly what we have seen from our known ta'veren. Take Mat for example:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 13 - Rumors

"Burn me, I will g--" He could not say it. Thinking of going was easy enough, but saying he would? His throat tightened up to strangle the words. "Is it easy for you, Perrin? Going, I mean? Don't you... fee anything? Trying to hold you back? Telling you reasons you shouldn't go?"

...

"Burn me, Perrin. Burn me! I want to g-g--See? I can't even say it, now. Like my head knows I'll do it if I say it. I can't even get it out in my mind!"**

Talk about a clear cut case of nothing but free will and choice, right?....

Mat is physically unable to say he will go with Perrin. He wants to go. But he cannot, physically, say it. That is not free will or choice at all.

**The prophecies, are not necessarily prophecies, but histories of countless dragons who have come before etc.**

Uh, no, they're prophecies. They were made during the time of the Breaking but female channelers who had the Foretelling, as per Jordan.

**Now to get back on the luck thing, it's both ta'veren, and it's not. He has always been lucky. Is this him being ta'veren? Partly. Remember (Pardon the lack of quote) when the "bubble" in the pattern made Mat's cards come alive? I think this was the pattern's way of staying away from cards, and listen to the dice.**

Or it was a bubble of evil that attacked an area that had three ta'veren.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-22

**Right.... Because the limitation of choice, including the explicit statement that some situations have to be a certain way, is in NO WAY dealing with free will. No, not at all.**

That is correct. The decision being made are still the Ta’veren’s to make.

For example, if you look at the events around Falme, you will see that Rands choice was of his own free will…yet he would never have made any other decision…but that’s because of the type of person he is, not because he can’t rationalise a situation and come to a decision.

…once more a man in a prison has free will, a man with a gun to his head being told ‘do xxxx or die’ has free will…otherwise man with a gun to his head wouldn’t need threats…(just like) otherwise the pattern wouldn’t need to go to extravagant means to make sure a decision (eg Rands decision at Falme) goes it’s way.

I personally don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that.

…..

I said **Interesting, hasn’t Jordan used the term ‘free’ in the books quite a bit? Aren’t the people of the current age worried about the DO getting ‘free’ when all the seals are broken? Are you also going to tell Jordan to get it right?**

Cal said **Yes, they're worried that the Dark One will get free with the seals being broken -- but there being no seals doesn't mean the Dark One is immediately "freed".**

…true in a wholistic sense…but more a diversion on your behalf than any sort of answer to what I said.

…the average (educated) person in Randland only knows that when the seals are broken, that is when the DO will be ‘free’…and that is how they (RJ) use the terminology. Even the educated don’t necessarily know that the DO intends to (can?) break the Wheel of Time and become truly free (I ‘think’ this is only known to the forsaken and an elite few etc)..for the rest, the DO is simply ‘free’. If you wish me to stop using ‘the DO being free’ in a relative term (just as Jordan obviously does)…then please feel free to write to RJ, expressing your concern at his obviously misleading use of such phrases. After you receive his reply and post it here…if he agrees with you, then I will be quite happy to stop using the said phrase.

…..

***Would you mind explaining these "holes" that are so debatable? I've seen absolutely nothing that you have presented that even comes close to being "debatable" in this discussion; …***

I presented a multitude of holes in the MDL=TVL argument in my original post, backed up by a plethora of book quotes. As such, this particular statement of yours seems extraordinarily silly to me.

***…there's just you willfullying ignoring given evidence.***

Evidence?... your replies were like many of your replies…they contained (and answered) :

-either outright misinterpretations of what I said (I pointed out quite a bundle of these in your first reply post)

-or were diversions on your part – ie they never answered nor countered what I said, they simply distracted attention away from what I was saying, onto a different argument.

Both I’ve noticed are a frequent tactic of yours (just like in your last). Why you feel the need to use such tactics? Certainly if you wish me to post quoted examples of any of these two tactics of yours, then I’ll be happy to do so.

But as the most obvious example - your original reply to my ‘theory’, barely contained an answer to anything I actually said…most of it was taken up with ‘answers’ to things I never said (your own misinterpreations)…I had to point out quite a few of your ‘misinterpretations’ of my original post.

So, as many of your answers (especially at the start…which seems to be what you are basing your accusation on) have often been a rebuttal of your own misinterpretations of things I said –(ie in reply to things I never said)…why then should I debate those ‘answers’?

….

##1 : I said**…the MDL=TVL theory needs an incredible amount of putting events through hoops and loops to substantiate it.**

Call said***Uh huh.

So, would you mind explaining how Mat tripping to avoid being killed by the gholam is "Mat's dicing luck?"***

I said that??????????? Wow…I can’t explain that!

See what I mean…another diversion :

-first on the basis that your reply ignores just how many complicated arguments the MDL=TVL theory needs to uphold it…and diverts attention to another subject

-secondly it ignores the numerous examples I’ve posted a number of times in my last few posts…to which ##1 (your quote of me) refers.

-thirdly it ignores just how easily those complicated arguments can be solved by admitting that Mat has an ability for luck

…..

**That's funny, you have yet to give a convincing reason why Mat wouldn't need money for any of the reasons presented before.**

Fair enough if you don’t find them convincing. Backed up as they are by a plethora of book quotes, they are convincing enough for me. I like debating, but I’m not overly worried if I don’t convince you - you obviously have your own interpretations of things.

…..

I said**Yet Mat is the only Ta’veren to receive this comment in the books – and multiple times at that.**

Call said**I don't know how many times I have to keep quoting where the "Dark One's luck" is attributed to many people throughout the series.**

Just another diversion, trying to make them sound the same, while ignoring the fact that:

-of the quotes you posted, each person only received a single mention re DO’s luck.

-only Mat has received multiple mention re the DO’s luck

-RJ himself has highlighted the ‘Mat/DO’s luck’ likeness.

The highlighting of Mat’s luck like this, over and above every other person is quite a deliberate act on RJ’s part.

……

I said **However, as I’ve pointed out previously…Mat having an extra ability, simplifies things a great deal. It’s the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument’ that makes things complicated and murky.**

Call said **How so? **

Uh, I’ve pointed it out multiple times in my last few posts…you just left the quotes out.

Call said Part 1 **You're supposed "ability" of "dicing luck" for Mat is only used to explain his dicing luck -- something that's completely unneeded to be explained away with the ta'vereness argument.**

Uh yeah…even when the attributes of TVL don’t match the attributes of MDL, that’s a far stretch.

Call said Part 2 ***You still fall back on "Well, it's ta'veren" on points such as how Mat survived the situations he has been in, how Mat is so "lucky" in battles, and how Mat gets what he needs in situations that do not utilize dice.***

That’s stating the utter obvious. My whole theory says Mat has TVL + MDL.

**You're just saying "If it involves dice, it's dicing luck. If it's something else, it's ta'veren."**

Not quite. I posted what I thought it was in the original post.

**How does saying "Whatever is "lucky" for Mat is truly ta'veren effect." more complicated or murky than your completely unneeded and plain fabrication of "dicing luck?"**

My last few posts have contained numerous summaries of where the MDL=TVL theory requires complex arguments, but a luck ability would offer a simple solution. Considering just how much of everything else from my posts you’ve reposted, I doubt you’ve missed those examples/summaries.

*** You're supposing a completely new ability for to explain for something that needs no explanation beyond that Mat is ta'veren.**

Uh, there’s HEAPS of new abilities in the current time in Randland. And yeah, the TVL=MDL does need explaining…lot’s of it.

Personally, there doesn’t seem to be any new evidence coming up on either side just now.

…………….

Hi Dwilson

**I would like to propose an alternate source of mats luck, mats luck is tied to the dark one. My direct evidence to support this theory is 2 seperate acts by 2 forsaken, and 2 circumstantial points.**

Unfortunately, the Lanfear gave Mat his luck theory has been put to bed by RJ himself.

While I think it’s an ability…there’s a small possibility it’s literally a DO thing…there is a theory on it somewhere on this board.

sogoloth: 2006-05-22

Hello Snakes! Let’s keep this train a rollin’…

*** Hey, it’s about time the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument’ recognised the overall need. They have been forever arguing ‘he needed money to get out of Tar Valon, he needed Money for the Armies, He needed money to be accepted by the lords etc etc”. Now those are quite easy to argue against, but the overall ‘need’ isn’t. Heh, of course, Mat has still won a great deal more than he ever needed (he gave a great deal away to Luca. He won much more than he needed at the time in Tar Valon – ie he could have won it at a steadier rate and still ended up with the same, from gambling in Carhein, Tear, with the Aiel etc etc …but that’s just a side issue really) ***

Mat may have won more than he needed – per the “Immediate Need” – but I believe his luck with gambling is fed by the “Grand Scale Need” to appear lucky to his men. See my previous posts for the reasons I feel he needs to appear lucky to his men. “Grand Scale Need” provides an easy explanation of Mat’s DL imo.

I said in a previous post:

*** OK, so we could take that to mean what you’re thinking: that Mat has a “Luck” ability of some kind. Or we could take it to mean that the Pattern provides Ta’veren a way to counter the affects of the DO’s influence on the Pattern, just as they provide a counter-balance to Free Will. ***

You Replied:

*** Ah…you are applying this to all Ta’veren now? Yet Mat is the only Ta’veren to receive this comment in the books – and multiple times at that. Mat is the sole person to be singled out by RJ in the interview, re this type of luck. Mat is the one RJ consistently singles out with mentions of luck in the books. Mat is the one where prophecy says ‘luck his soul’….to me it’s fairly obvious this comment was meant for Mat, and Mat alone – not all three Ta’veren. ***

I have applied my concept of Ta’veren and their mechanics to all Ta’veren we have been exposed to, yes. It isn’t something new I’ve done, though my understanding of pre-destiny and Ta’veren have changed as I’ve read these theories. That’s why I’ve changed my mind to go from “on the fence” to disagreeing with this theory.

As Callandor has pointed out, Mat is not the only one to have been noted as lucky by the Randlanders. Yes, he has been noted with this comment several more times than anyone else. But that doesn’t mean that by defacto its an ability. Again, “Grand Scale Need” addresses this. As for RJ singling Mat out, as I recall the RJ quote was given in the context of a question about Lanfear giving Mat his luck… that does not substantiate itself as proof positive for a different question or theory, even if they are related. That said, I still agree that the RJ quote is the strongest point of your theory, and not easily negated by the evidence presented to us.

*** Heh, everyone has to base their argument on something, don’t they ? ***

Yes, but evidence is usually the way to base an argument, not supposition. No insult intended. I know you have presented several pieces of evidence to support your theory. But I also feel that you have used supposition in terms of your interpretation of prophesy and the RJ quote. That weakens your case imo.

*** I’ve no problem with you having a different interpretation, however, as I said – if Mat’s luck wasn’t attached to his soul…if his luck faded after Ta’veren faded…then the prophecy wouldn’t be true. ***

As I’ve stated before, prophesy is a poor source of evidence as it is open to interpretation until the events prophesized have unfolded. You say that the prophesy wouldn’t be true… but that’s based on your assumption that your interpretation of the prophesy is correct. If my interpretation is correct – which is that the “Luck His Soul” line of prophesy is simply a method by which Mat can be recognized by the Wise – than Mat’s luck could fade with his Ta’vereness, because when Mats Ta’vereness fades (if it ever does, which I personally doubt) his purpose with the Pattern will have been fulfilled. That doesn’t mean that while Mat’s Tavereness is in full effect he couldn’t fulfill the prophesy, it just means that while he is Ta’veren that’s how he’ll be recognized. Again that’s the problem with prophesy, there’s no way to know for certain. That’s why it can’t be used as evidence, except maybe as circumstantial. Even then it is dubious at best imo.

*** Heh, it’s relevance is…if you are trying to invalidate my belief that Mat’s ability is inborn…then you can’t if you agree that people can be born with abilities, and the Pattern can make use of them. ***

I believe you are misunderstanding me. Of course people are born with abilities, and of course the Pattern makes use of them – once they are born. But because the Pattern can’t make use of a person until they are born, it simply doesn’t make any difference when they got their abilities. In addition, I don’t believe Mat has an ability beyond being Ta’veren. People can be born with abilities or without them. That doesn’t mean that because they are Ta’veren they have to. Just saying “well Rand has an ability, and so does Perrin. Therefore Mat has to have one because everyone else does” is not proof of any kind. Having abilities or not having abilities, Ta’veren get used by the Pattern as needed. Just look at Aurtur Hawking for proof of that. He didn’t have any abilities beyond being a great general – btw Hawking is one of the few char’s to have been noted to be lucky on more than one occasion. And he was the strongest Ta’veren since LTT. Coincidence?

And anyhow, none of that shows that there is any relevance to this theory. Abilities are irrelevant until a person is spun out for the Pattern to make use of them. Period. We’re talking about whether Mat has an ability beyond being Ta’veren or not. Any abilities he has – tied to his soul or otherwise – are not relevant until he gets spun out and put to use by the Pattern. The idea that abilities are tied to the soul is cool, but has no bearing what-so-ever on this discussion. Unless you are trying to use the “Luck His Soul” prophesy as evidence… in which case I refer you to my previous posts, and my response above in this post. Prophesy is not a reliable source of evidence, as it is open to interpretation and thus supposition.

***However, as I’ve pointed out previously…Mat having an extra ability, simplifies things a great deal. It’s the ‘it’s Ta’veren argument’ that makes things complicated and murky. ***

Actually I disagree, I believe your theory complicates what is otherwise easily explained by the effects of Ta’veren. Especially when thought of in the light of the “Grand Scale Need” idea. When the “Grand Scale Need” concept is applied, it simplifies Mat’s luck and explains things completely and effectively. The DL theory requires that we create a whole new set of rules that reflect almost verbatim the mechanics of being Ta’veren, and that we take on faith and supposition there is a difference, based mainly on an RJ quote and a prophesy. Sorry, but imo it is this theory that makes things murky. I would be interested in you explaining how you feel the TL theory is murky, as it seems quite logical to me and the DL is not.

*** You’ll have to explain further…that quote contains a double supposition – the first IF it’s something given by the pattern, and the second supposition (which hinges on the first) that it will disappear when Ta’vereness Dissappears.

Heh…actually…I’m not sure what you are arguing anymore…are you arguing that Mat’s Dicing Luck is indeed an ability, and that the ability doesn’t matter? Or are you arguing that Mat’s luck is purely Ta’veren based, with no ability involved? ***

I believe that Mat’s luck is purely Ta’veren based. To clarify (if I interpret your quote above correctly): I believe it is supposition to say that “if it’s just something given by the Pattern because the person is Ta’veren, then it will disappear when Ta’vereness fades”. We have no way of knowing if that is true or not, therefore any conclusions from that ideal would be based completely on an assumption. That makes it supposition, and supposition cannot be used as evidence. And again, when an ability is granted is not relevant to this theory. The debate is whether Mat has an ability or not. The debate on when abilities are granted belongs in a different thread.

*** That’s not a jump at all. Ta’veren isn’t attached to the soul. The Pattern gives Ta’vereness to people whom it has plans for. They are predestined to be Ta’veren, but it’s not attached to the soul, and it can fade. If an ability is attached to the soul…then as far as we know, it never fades, and it is an ability in addition to being Ta’veren…once more, Rand’s channelling ability, and Perrin’s wolfbrotherness are prime examples. ***

I don’t know that I agree that Ta’veren isn’t attached to the soul. After all, if that’s true then how do you explain LTT/Rand? Or Hawking for that matter? Or any of the Heros of the Horn? Ta’veren fades from people when the Pattern is done with them, but that is for the “small” Ta’veren. Artur Hawking never had Ta’vereness fade, and neither did LTT. I suspect that Perrin and Mat will not have Ta’veren fade from them either, though we’ll have to RAFO on that one. I agree that if an ability is attached to the soul it will not fade. I also do not look at being Ta’veren as an “ability” per se, so much as a condition. Regardless, the jump you are making is that there is an ability in the first place (Mat’s supposed DL). You have not proven that your theory is true, and you cannot use your own theory to help validate or prove your theory. Only verifiable facts can be used to validate a theory, not personal interpretations or suppositions. So far, your counterpoints to me have been just that imo. The only point I feel is debatable is the RJ quote.

*** The histories do suggest that Artur Hawkwing was always Ta’veren. First we have to recognise history gets warped…Thom Merrilon stated this very thing to Elayne – something along the lines of ‘Do you really believe that Artur Hawkwing fought 100 duels in one day?”. Second, the Histories don’t actually say whether he was Ta’veren his whole life or not, just that he was the greatest Ta’veren since LTT. ***

I do not believe that Artur Hawking ever had Ta’veren fade from him, and there has been no evidence in the books that it did. Being described as the greatest Ta’veren since LTT makes it fairly clear that he is one of the Wheel’s pivotal Ta’veren. Also, he is bound to the Horn. By what we’ve been shown so far, it seems that being a “greater” Ta’veren (as opposed to a “small” Ta’veren) is a requirement for being bound by the Horn. Most if not all the “greater” Ta’veren are bound to the Horn by what we’ve been shown so far. That supplies enough evidence imo to validate that Hawking never had his Ta’vereness fade from him. It is true the histories never say one way or another, and it is also true that history gets warped. But based on the mechanics of how the Horn seems to work, I believe it fair to say that it is obvious Hawking was Ta’veren his whole life.

In summation I believe that the condition of being Ta’veren easily explains Mat’s luck. I do not see this explanation as murky or obtuse, nor do I think it complicates Mats luck scenario. On the contrary, I believe being Ta’veren covers Mats abilities completely, and have not seen evidence to that would negate this, with the possible exception of the RJ quote. If any evidence is presented that is not based on supposition or the assumption that this theory is correct, I will be happy to re-evaluate my opinion. As I’ve said, you cannot use this theory to prove this theory. That is flawed logic. Until such time as any such evidence is presented, I cannot support this theory.

JakOShadows: 2006-05-22

Aryl:

That bit about the cards was interesting. You are trying to say that the bubble of evil making the cards attack Mat was guided by the pattern, so that Mat would dice more and his ta'veren luck would kick in to make some money right. That is quite certainly possible, but I always thought that the bubbles of evil were always created by the DO as his seals weakened. If that is so, I think it would be very hard for the pattern to directly affect them. It is quite possible the pattern guided Mat to play cards that night, knowing the bubble of evil would come and the result it would have. But I believe the pattern never had the ability to control the DO. Only predict what he will do and counteract it accordingly. That is in essence what you are saying and I agree it is quite possible, but I just wanted flesh it out a bit.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-23

Hi Sogoloth,

**Mat may have won more than he needed – per the “Immediate Need” – but I believe his luck with gambling is fed by the “Grand Scale Need” to appear lucky to his men. See my previous posts for the reasons I feel he needs to appear lucky to his men. “Grand Scale Need” provides an easy explanation of Mat’s DL imo.**

I’d just like to make a correction to your above statement (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). According to how you view things, Mat’s ‘Grand Scale Need’ provides an easy explanation to ‘The Pattern Provides What is Needful” (to Ta’veren)…which is used to ‘support’ the TVL=MDL argument. You then said

**“Grand Scale Need” provides an easy explanation of Mat’s DL imo.**

You’ve made a jump in logic there that doesn’t necessarily work. You have taken one aspect of Ta’verenness, and said that because it exists, ‘this’ (MDL) has to be Ta’veren.

By their very nature, Ta’veren have a Grand Scale Need. This is the main reason why any argument focusing on this point is difficult to argue against.

…But if you take Perrin for example…Perrin has a GrandScale need…he will be leading the wolves into battle come the last battle. Now Perrin was born with the ability to be a wolfbrother, but he wasn’t born Ta’veren…yet the Pattern is using his inborn ability to fulfil a grandscale need of Ta’veren.

Further, Ta’verenness contains a number of different aspects, and those aspects behave in certain ways (I think you’ll agree with that). ‘The Pattern Provides what is needful’ is just one of those aspects. So something that is believed to be Ta’veren, should not just match ‘The Pattern Provides what is Needful’, but should match the known behaviours of all the relevant Ta’veren aspects.

As an additional note, there are three examples that I can think of in the books where ‘the Pattern Provides what is needful’ has been said (once each by Morraine, Verin, and Thom)…each time it has been said, has been in relation to circumstancial luck (ie. They have been in the right place at the right time). So that ‘appears’ to be how ‘The Pattern Provides what is needful’ works. I’ve yet to see any explanation for how this extends to dicing luck.

**As Callandor has pointed out, Mat is not the only one to have been noted as lucky by the Randlanders. Yes, he has been noted with this comment several more times than anyone else. But that doesn’t mean that by defacto its an ability**

This is quite true…RJ’s quote by itself doesn’t mean Mat has a defacto luck ability – and I’ve never argued that.

My point was : that to support your stance (and in order to explain RJ’s ‘in a way Mat has the DO’s own luck’) - you needed to expand your explanation to include all three Ta’veren….

…now as I said, it seems very obvious to me that RJ in making this statement - RJ has purposely singled Mat out. It doesn’t appear at all to be an error on his part, or a ‘I just forgot to include the other Ta’veren in that statement’. Rather it very much appears to be a deliberate statement. Therefore, any explanation of it shouldn’t include the other Ta’veren….which brings me back to what I’ve said before – The MDL=TVL argument can’t explain this quote of RJ’s away.

**Yes, but evidence is usually the way to base an argument, not supposition.**

Unfortunately this is only half true. . If something can be proven, it’s no longer a theory, is it? It becomes fact….then we wouldn’t be arguing about this. (and where would the fun be?). The norm in these forums, is to present information from the books, and explain how you interpret that information…to reach a conclusion. Is this not what I’ve done? (at the very start of my posts…the arguments on predestination were something else)

**No insult intended. I know you have presented several pieces of evidence to support your theory. But I also feel that you have used supposition in terms of your interpretation of prophesy and the RJ quote. That weakens your case imo.**

No insult taken. You have also used supposition in your interpretation of prophecy…does that also weaken your case?

The simple fact is, MDL can never be proven to be Ta’veren or not (until RJ says so)….so almost everything said in here is supposition in one form or another. I can point out many many places, in both my own argument, your argument, and other peoples arguments, where their cases have been based on supposition….but hey, if we all saw things the same way, there would be no arguments.

**As I’ve stated before, prophesy is a poor source of evidence as it is open to interpretation until the events prophesized have unfolded.**

Generally I’d agree with you...although this particularly prophecy appears to be an exception. One thing about prophecy is that is it always true (in places like Randland)…even if the words didn’t mean what we originally thought they meant. Given that prophecy is always true…If Mat’s Dicing Luck ever left if (say after Ta’verenness fades)…then I can see no way whatsoever that the prophecy could be true…so it appears to be a very literal prophecy.

I do understand your interpretation...but I can’t agree with it because of my views in the above paragraph.

**In addition, I don’t believe Mat has an ability beyond being Ta’veren.**

I’ve no problem with that.

**People can be born with abilities or without them. That doesn’t mean that because they are Ta’veren they have to.**

Quite correct, and I’ve never claimed this.

**Just saying “well Rand has an ability, and so does Perrin. Therefore Mat has to have one because everyone else does” is not proof of any kind.**

Quite correct, and I’ve never claimed this either.

**Having abilities or not having abilities, Ta’veren get used by the Pattern as needed.**

I also agree with this, and have never said otherwise, so I’m not sure why you are bringing them up, but that’s okay.

**Abilities are irrelevant until a person is spun out for the Pattern to make use of them. Period. We’re talking about whether Mat has an ability beyond being Ta’veren or not. Any abilities he has – tied to his soul or otherwise – are not relevant until he gets spun out and put to use by the Pattern. The idea that abilities are tied to the soul is cool, but has no bearing what-so-ever on this discussion.**

Are you are saying that Mat could have an inborn luck ability on top of his Ta’vereness…but that it wouldn’t matter?

If so, I have no problem with that…that’s basically saying that I could be right, but it doesn’t matter to you…which would just be a personal view…and therefore no basis for an argument.

**Actually I disagree, I believe your theory complicates what is otherwise easily explained by the effects of Ta’veren.**

Uh…I disagree quite strongly with this…

-Just have a look at your interpretation of the ‘luck his soul’ quote…an inborn ability agrees with it without the need for explanation…your view took some explaining

-just look at ‘Mat’s luck like the DO’s own luck’…an inborn ability would simply agree with this…TVL=MDL takes quite a bit of explaning.

-look at how TVL requires balance but MDL doesn’t exhibit balance…an inborn ability means no explanation is needed, TVL requires explanation

-look at how TVL never stays focused on any one thing, but MDL stays focused on MDL…an inborn ability doesn’t require any further explanation, TVL does

-look at how MDL never effects other people around him, while TVL does…an inborn ability doesn’t require any further explanation – TVL does

Given that an inborn ability doesn’t require any further explanation for these oddities of MDL Vs TVL…and TVL does require explanation…how then can you claim that it an inborn ability requires a complicated explanation for MDL, and TVL doesn’t?

**I believe it is supposition to say that “if it’s just something given by the Pattern because the person is Ta’veren, then it will disappear when Ta’vereness fades”. We have no way of knowing if that is true or not**

Of course we do. Ta’vereness can come and go as the Pattern requires. That’s a given. Therefore if MDL is purely because Mat is Ta’veren, it has to leave along with Ta’veren (when Ta’verenness fades). That’s plain logic.

**I don’t know that I agree that Ta’veren isn’t attached to the soul. After all, if that’s true then how do you explain LTT/Rand? Or Hawking for that matter? Or any of the Heros of the Horn?**

Ah…now this is something that I’ve always been curious about…are the Heroes of the Horn Ta’veren? I would think so to…so it appears that Ta’vereness would be attached to their soul (but we have no way or knowing if it would fade or not)…but…Mat and Perrin aren’t Heroes of the Horn, so it doesn’t make a difference in Mat’s case.

**Ta’veren fades from people when the Pattern is done with them, but that is for the “small” Ta’veren. Artur Hawking never had Ta’vereness fade, and neither did LTT.**

Now this is supposition…we don’t truly have any information on this, just guesses….probably good guesses, but guesses all the same… LTT is probably the bigger guess…are you saying he was Ta’veren even after he went mad?

**As I’ve said, you cannot use this theory to prove this theory. That is flawed logic.**

I’ve actually said a number of times in this theory that Mat having an inborn ability cannot be proven...but it does present a simple explanation for MDL. The original theory has always been that TVL does not equal MDL.

Callandor: 2006-05-23

**That is correct. The decision being made are still the Ta’veren’s to make.**

False. Again, look at Mat's example that I have quoted. Mat wants to go with Perrin. He is physically incapable of saying it though.

There is no "wanting" it with ta'veren in this. If their desires go along with the course of the Wheel/Pattern's plans, then great. If not, oh well, they're still going to do exactly what the Wheel/Pattern wants them to. Mat wanted to go with Perrin. The Wheel/Pattern demanded that he go to Rhuidean to fulfill his destiny. The Wheel/Pattern got it's way completely against Mat's will.

This isn't "limiting of choice" -- this is complete forcing in instances that the Wheel/Pattern deems important. Until you even address this issue, let alone refute it, you have absolutely no basis for your claims.

**For example, if you look at the events around Falme, you will see that Rands choice was of his own free will**

Care to be a bit more specific? There are quite a few choices that occured at Falme.

If you're refering to Rand declaring himself the Dragon Reborn, I'd disagree strongly. Rand did everything to avoid the situation; it was still forced upon him.

**…once more a man in a prison has free will, a man with a gun to his head being told ‘do xxxx or die’ has free will…otherwise man with a gun to his head wouldn’t need threats…(just like) otherwise the pattern wouldn’t need to go to extravagant means to make sure a decision (eg Rands decision at Falme) goes it’s way.

I personally don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that.**

You're completely agreeing with what I am saying, then saying my point is false.

Once again, confront the issue in the books directly about Mat being incapable to say he'd go with Perrin, or realize your claims have no basis.

**…true in a wholistic sense…but more a diversion on your behalf than any sort of answer to what I said.**

Uh, no, it's completely true. There were no seals on the Dark One's prison for over a century during the Age of Legends -- he didn't escape. The destruction of the seals does not equate to the Dark One getting free of his prison. They're a step that needs to be done for him to escape, but the destruction of them isn't the end.

**…the average (educated) person in Randland only knows that when the seals are broken, that is when the DO will be ‘free’…and that is how they (RJ) use the terminology.**

How great -- we know better, as Jordan has shown and told us.

**If you wish me to stop using ‘the DO being free’ in a relative term (just as Jordan obviously does)…then please feel free to write to RJ, expressing your concern at his obviously misleading use of such phrases.**

You're point is completely useless. If Jordan was using this in such a relative term, how come he expressly showed that this is not true in the events of the Age of Legends?

The characters use the term relatively -- Jordan doesn't. If you want to use this, go right ahead and be limited in other discussions on other topics. You know, Egwene knowing that Rand used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai in Cairhien. It's not true at all; but she's using it to the best of her knowledge, so it's perfectly acceptable for us to believe that even though we know it's completely false from other information.

**I presented a multitude of holes in the MDL=TVL argument in my original post, backed up by a plethora of book quotes. As such, this particular statement of yours seems extraordinarily silly to me.**

Yes, and every single one of them were refuted in my replies -- the ones you expressly ignored. How interesting.

**Evidence?... your replies were like many of your replies…they contained (and answered) :

-either outright misinterpretations of what I said (I pointed out quite a bundle of these in your first reply post)

-or were diversions on your part – ie they never answered nor countered what I said, they simply distracted attention away from what I was saying, onto a different argument.**

Really? Well, maybe if you actually replied to them, you might have some basis. But your complete ignorance of them kinda makes you lose any sense of credibility.

**But as the most obvious example - your original reply to my ‘theory’, barely contained an answer to anything I actually said…most of it was taken up with ‘answers’ to things I never said (your own misinterpreations)…I had to point out quite a few of your ‘misinterpretations’ of my original post.**

And every single one of them is refuted by yet other of my replies showing how they were you saying exactly what I quoted. If you wish to try to mudsling me, and try to slander me, the best you could do is actually try to point to some examples rather than just make your bland generalizations that you use for any type of explanation.

**So, as many of your answers (especially at the start…which seems to be what you are basing your accusation on) have often been a rebuttal of your own misinterpretations of things I said –(ie in reply to things I never said)…why then should I debate those ‘answers’?**

Yes, why should you bring your high and mighty self to reply to my comments that what you're using to try to frame my refutations of your theor are complete and utter nonsense? If that's the case, why even bother bringing your high and mighty self to reply to any post on this thread? You've made your oringial post, and that's enough. Why should you bother yourself replying when people explain that your statements are nothing other than completely false? I surely do not know.

**-first on the basis that your reply ignores just how many complicated arguments the MDL=TVL theory needs to uphold it…and diverts attention to another subject**

Right, it completely ignores that you just generally say "There's holes in the argument."

Hey, Graendal killed Asmodean has holes in it. I won't list them. So if you reply saying that Lanfear killing Asmodean has a hole in it, I can reply to you saying that you're completely ignoring all the evidence I've provided.

This is what I mean by complete generalizations that you claim are explanations. You've given not one single example of these "holes" that I haven't already discussed and refuted -- and those replies you completely ignored.

**-secondly it ignores the numerous examples I’ve posted a number of times in my last few posts…to which ##1 (your quote of me) refers.**

No, it doesn't. You don't list any such examples for me to reply to. You just say "There's holes in it." Ok, like what? The ones you listed before? Yeah, re-read (or in your case, actually read for the first time) my replies from the beginning. I'ved dealt with and refuted every exmaple you have given. You've ignored such replies.

**-thirdly it ignores just how easily those complicated arguments can be solved by admitting that Mat has an ability for luck**

And admitting a stork left you on your parent's doorstep is ignoring how much easier it is that the explanation about how life begins.

And if you wish to play this game, you even STIPULATING that there needs to be an explanation of Mat's "luck" beyond ta'veren is already a complication. You're trying to give a fabricated answer to something that doesn't need to be explained at all beyond what we've already been told many times: Mat is ta'veren.

**Just another diversion, trying to make them sound the same, while ignoring the fact that:

-of the quotes you posted, each person only received a single mention re DO’s luck.

-only Mat has received multiple mention re the DO’s luck

-RJ himself has highlighted the ‘Mat/DO’s luck’ likeness.

The highlighting of Mat’s luck like this, over and above every other person is quite a deliberate act on RJ’s part.**

And you say I have diversions.

1. Who cares if they have one single reference of "Dark One's own luck"? They have it -- oh no! This reminds me of a story. There was a study of a whole slew of cases of UFO encounters. Over 5000 cases if I rememeber. The U.S. government dismissed it as saying "There are only 600 cases that cannot be explained away comepletely." Only 600? The point is to find one. If you tested 5000 drugs for the cure for cancer, and only 600 of them worked, you'd be dismissive of those 600?

You say that only Mat has been refered to as having the Dark One's own luck -- I refute this, then you try to dismiss it. Doesn't work that way.

2. You then try to modify your statement to "multiple times." Well, if you want to make a correction, go right ahead. But that's conceding to my point now, isn't it?

3. In reference to your Jordan quote, you still have not posted the entire question -- just the answer. I have the strangest feeling that if you post that question, you'll find out why Jordan "singled" out Mat.

**Uh, I’ve pointed it out multiple times in my last few posts…you just left the quotes out.**

No, you haven't. You've been complaining that you don't think ta'vereness explains everything we've seen about Mat's "luck" and have been trying to fabricate this completely new ability to explain something that doesn't need to be explained beyond what we already know. You then have the gall to claim that this is somehow simpler than Mat being ta'veren. Again, doesn't work that way.

**Uh yeah…even when the attributes of TVL don’t match the attributes of MDL, that’s a far stretch.**

Once again, would you care to cite an example rather than generalize? I've shown how the same situation you claimed before only applied to Mat, has applied to Rand. I've shown repeatedly how ta'vereness explains Mat's "luck" completely.

On a separate note: of course the attributes don't match. One is a principle seen in the world of the Wheel of Time in many instances (ta'veren) -- the other is a complete supposition by you (this ridiculous "dicing luck").

**That’s stating the utter obvious. My whole theory says Mat has TVL + MDL.**

Yes, it is stating the obvious; apparently you continue to miss how this obvious statement completely nullifies any claim that the "dicing luck" is "simpler." You claim there are two overlapping processes going on here: ta'veren in some situations, and "dicing luck" in others. I say, and the books say, it's all one thing: ta'veren. So, how is your explanation "simpler" by any means at all?

**Not quite. I posted what I thought it was in the original post.**

Of course it's "not quite" what you said -- you required a sloth of extra space to try to explain how it was. You even agreed, just right above this section, that you're point boils down to ta'veren and "dicing luck." In case you missed your own words:

**That’s stating the utter obvious. My whole theory says Mat has TVL + MDL.**

So, even my "not quite" statement, managed to encapsulate your entire theory in a simple sentence.

**My last few posts have contained numerous summaries of where the MDL=TVL theory requires complex arguments, but a luck ability would offer a simple solution. Considering just how much of everything else from my posts you’ve reposted, I doubt you’ve missed those examples/summaries.**

See, here's the thing that gets me. You claim that in any other instance that doesn't involve dice, it's ta'veren. You're using those complex situations as a cop out for you "theory." You then just try to pander this complete fabrication as a more "simpler" explanation when it's anything but.

**Uh, there’s HEAPS of new abilities in the current time in Randland. And yeah, the TVL=MDL does need explaining…lot’s of it.**

And you know what's funny about those new abilities? We've seen examples of other people having them as well, they've been addressed, and explained in the series by Jordan. You're supposing a completely new ability based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. There is not one thing in the books regarding Mat's "luck" that needs explanation beyond "Mat is ta'veren."

Aryl: 2006-05-25

Callandor - I have one thing with what you said "Mat is physically unable to say he will go with Perrin. He wants to go. But he cannot, physically, say it. That is not free will or choice at all." The quotes you supplied do not say that he cannot physically say the words, they say that He says he cannot. What one says one cannot do, and what one cannot do are seperate. This quote that you supplied, you highlighted something yet missed the signifigance of the remaining part of the quote

"**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 13 - Rumors

"Burn me, I will g--" He could not say it. Thinking of going was easy enough, but saying he would? His throat tightened up to strangle the words. "Is it easy for you, Perrin? Going, I mean? Don't you... fee anything? Trying to hold you back? Telling you reasons you shouldn't go?" " Now here is the interesting part of that quote to me, it says TRYING to hold you back. If it could control, and remove free will, this ta'verenness, then it would have right there wouldn't it? Now as for your mention of the dragons prophecies, you are 100% right, the books show that they are prophecies, tried and true, but at the same time, a few contradict each other. In minor ways. Not all the prophecies were written by female channelers during the breaking, some of the quotes in the books from the many propecies, say they are from totally different ages. The dates contradict that particualr information. I just thought that in reality, and not in these wonderful books, the "bible" has it's own prophecies. (I put that in quotes because there are many religious texts that are similar, and many just refer to that sort of thing)But people don't know when the prophecies refer to. Or even who really. A name of the dragon reborn is vague. It is also a possibility that LTT was a "dragon reborn" they called him the dragon if memory serves, but people call rand that as well. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills, who knows what it has woven? The histories given in the book are far from complete. I do respect your theories on these matters, and some are most intruiging, but these two points seemed slightly flawed.

I agree with snakesnfoxes, mat does seem to have "MDL + TVL" both forms of luck have seemed to show themselves.

Ah the bubble of evil, yes it was a bubble of evil, but for the DO to create such things as people keep saying (And I agree) then he would have to warp the pattern, and ta'veren shape the pattern around themselves, pulling things in. Yes the DO may have intended just that thing. But it's also possible that one of the ta'verens purposes is to be a center of much of the webs happenings, and this just happened to slide towards the ta'veren. Just because the DO created the bubble, doesn't mean the "ta'veren luck" didn't pull it in to mat specifically and turn it into some sort of object lesson. (though I do agree that this argument is a tiny bit thin, as I mentioned in my previous post, they were idle ramlbings from a tired and sick man, I have realized a few of my errors, I am no longer sick)

Sogoloth - Alrighty, yet another reference to the heroes of the horn ALL being ta'veren. Certainly the idea does make sense, but I don't remember if they all were. Nowhere does it say that all heroes (I mean in general, not just with the horn) are ta'veren. Why would you have to be a ta'veren to be tied to the horn? This is just a loose thread to proove that once someone is ta'veren they are always ta'veren which has been proven many times, to be false. Someone may be given ta'verenness multiple times, in many lives, but that avoids the other lives each person lives. The last time rand had been spun out onto the pattern was when he was LTT? Not totally believeable. Was he ta'veren EVERY time he was spun out? I doubt it. Do people recieve ta'verenness more than once? Undoubtedly. But it is possible to both gain and lose ta'verenness in the middle of ones life. This has, I believe, been said by Jordan himself. Thought obviously not in those words. Also your argument "I do not believe that Artur Hawking ever had Ta’veren fade from him, and there has been no evidence in the books that it did." Just because there is no evidence in the book about a character that rarely even shows up in the books, does not mean that something did not happen. Lack of evidence has never proven that things happened. Quite the opposite. "Being described as the greatest Ta’veren since LTT makes it fairly clear that he is one of the Wheel’s pivotal Ta’veren" In reference to Artur hawkwing, If he is so 'pivotal' than why is not in this age born to rule as he did before? He Was pivotal, but he isn't so much pivotal now is he? There is very sketchy evidence that rand is tied to the horn, as the heroes recognize him, but these two ta'veren being tied to the horn does not prove that ALL of the horn's heroes are ta'veren. And if it does not prove that, then it also does not prove that being a ta'veren is permanent. The evidence you have supplied keeps saying "by what we’ve been shown so far" but by what we've been shown so far is that we do not know any of the real rules that bind one to the horn, much less any set rules on being ta'veren. This makes it hard to define ANYTHING about being ta'veren, whether they are woven out, or their thread is modified after it has been woven etc. You did say "imo" so I have to settle with that, I have many imo's on these matters. But we have to try and realize we don't know the rules. We can guess, or suppose, or have opinions, but we can't use any of these three to "Prove" anything really.

Aryl: 2006-05-25

I have just realized that I didn't really reply to the post that Jak has posted.

Jak - I am glad you find that interesting, I must say it is a weak theory, the one reason I didn't put that in it's own thread. I was saying something other than mat gaining money though. I was saying that that might have been influenced by the pattern. That maybe the bubble of evil was not direct influence of the DO but rather his way of trying to "bump" the pattern into possibly causing some damage/chaos. If he was not trying anything intentionally, if it was just the effect made by the seals weaking then it wouldn't necessarily be outside the patterns influence, therein placing it in the influence of ta'verenness. You are right that the pattern may have just guided mat there to play cards to have this exact influence on him. But if so, then the pattern knows that this would happen, and if so, then it would be Part of the pattern. As such it should be effectable by ta'verenness. You were right that this theory needs fleshing, but as it's just a little theory, I wasn't sure if it needed it's own thread. But as the idea touched on this subject, I figured it would be somewhat acceptable here. Oddly if this event did happen to intentionally make make sure of his dice, and less sure of cards, it would seem to support that "Mat's Dicing Luck is not Ta'veren". But it would also support that ta'verenness supports the use of any inborn abilities that one may have.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-27

I said **That is correct. The decision being made are still the Ta’veren’s to make.**

Call said **False. Again, look at Mat's example that I have quoted. Mat wants to go with Perrin. He is physically incapable of saying it though.**

I’ve already covered this one with you Callandor (though only briefly). I said it is the strongest evidence you have for your stance…but it is the only example in 11 books (where it 'appears' that the ta’veren could not truly ignore it)…from memory, we have older evidence of Perrin feeling ‘Rand needs me’…but Perrin followed that feeling of his own free will. However, we also have newer evidence of the pattern tinkering with all three ta’veren’s minds (the colours), and with practice they are able to ignore them. So It may be that Mat only needed practice to be able to ignore it (and he didn’t have any practice at ignoring it), or it may truly be that Mat had no way whatsoever of ignoring it. Your example only is a singular instance…and as we have newer examples of the Pattern tinkering with ta’veren minds…and with practice they are able to ignore that tinkering, the example you have provided is not quite conclusive proof….a very good and supporting quote, but not quite conclusive proof.

Further, Aryl’s reply also casts some doubt…much better expressed than I could have myself…but also supporting what I’m saying just here…there is some doubt.

…..

***Care to be a bit more specific? There are quite a few choices that occured at Falme.

If you're refering to Rand declaring himself the Dragon Reborn, I'd disagree strongly. Rand did everything to avoid the situation; it was still forced upon him.***

Yes, I’m talking about Rand declaring himself the Dragon…see below.

……

I said **I personally don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that.**

You said **You're completely agreeing with what I am saying, then saying my point is false.**

You see what I mean…your belief that I am completely agreeing with you, comes down to your philosophy of what free will is. I am quite strongly disagreeing with you, and pointing out that even in the most difficult of circumstances (do this or die)…we still have free will.

…..

**The characters use the term relatively -- Jordan doesn't**

That’s just silly…the characters are RJ.

Call, I’m not arguing with you anymore about the DO being free. It’s quite a pointless argument. I am happy to use the term in the same vein as RJ does, and that’s that.

….

I said **I presented a multitude of holes in the MDL=TVL argument in my original post, backed up by a plethora of book quotes. As such, this particular statement of yours seems extraordinarily silly to me.**

Call said **Yes, and every single one of them were refuted in my replies -- the ones you expressly ignored. How interesting.**

I got a chuckle out of this one. Firstly, almost the whole of your first post, was in reply to things I never said…so almost nothing was refuted.

You managed in that post (from memory) to refute just one quote I made about Elaida, which I happily admitted was wrong…and perhaps one other thing (can’t remember off the top of my head)…hardly refuting every single point I made.

Secondly, I told you I would not reply to your subsequent posts that contained rudeness…yet you continued to display appalling manners, and so I didn’t reply to them. If you wish to call this ‘ignoring evidence’, I will quite happily repeat “I told you I would not be replying to your posts containing rudeness”.

I’ve replied to most points made where there was no rudeness in your posts. But of course, as always, you see things only the way you wish to.

…..

I said **Evidence?... your replies were like many of your replies…they contained (and answered) :

-either outright misinterpretations of what I said (I pointed out quite a bundle of these in your first reply post)

-or were diversions on your part – ie they never answered nor countered what I said, they simply distracted attention away from what I was saying, onto a different argument.**

Call said ***Really? Well, maybe if you actually replied to them, you might have some basis. But your complete ignorance of them kinda makes you lose any sense of credibility.

A diversion from a diversion Call ? You didn’t deny anything I said…simply tried to divert attention…I’m impressed that you would stack diversions, but this tactic is getting incredibly old.

…….

**And every single one of them is refuted by yet other of my replies showing how they were you saying exactly what I quoted. If you wish to try to mudsling me, and try to slander me, the best you could do is actually try to point to some examples rather than just make your bland generalizations that you use for any type of explanation.**

Uh Callandor… when told ‘no that is not what I was saying’….then the argument “I insist that I know what you were saying” is ludicrous beyond belief.

…even though both Tamyrlin and another poster pointed out flaws in your ‘interpretation’s’…. You should only have needed me to say ‘no this is not what I was saying’, and that should have been the end of it…yet you insist on continuing the style of argument referred to in the above paragraph.



Throughout many of my posts here in Theoryland, you are the only one that manages to misinterpret things I say on a regular basis. This no longer surprises me, but as you continue to insist your misinterpretations are correct, it does make any sort of sensible discussion difficult.

……

I said **So, as many of your answers (especially at the start…which seems to be what you are basing your accusation on) have often been a rebuttal of your own misinterpretations of things I said –(ie in reply to things I never said)…why then should I debate those ‘answers’?**

Call said **Yes, why should you bring your high and mighty self to reply to my comments that what you're using to try to frame my refutations of your theor are complete and utter nonsense?**

Call, a debate has a central theme. No debate can make sense if you are talking about two different things…you were replying to things I never said…so a reply to them would not be in direct relation to the ‘theory’ I posted…it wouldn’t make sense in relation to the theory…and so it would be pointless…why then should I debate those answers?

…….

**Right, it completely ignores that you just generally say "There's holes in the argument."**

I pointed out many specific holes in the argument right back from my first post. We are going around in circles here.

……

I said**-secondly it ignores the numerous examples I’ve posted a number of times in my last few posts…to which ##1 (your quote of me) refers.**

Call said**No, it doesn't. You don't list any such examples for me to reply to. You just say "There's holes in it." Ok, like what?**

So you admit there were examples then? (even if you shortened the numerous examples down to just ‘there’s holes in it’)….

We are talking about complications? One side requires explanation, the other side doesn’t…do you wish me to provide cut and pastes of whole MDL=TVL posts explaning away the complications?

……

I said**-thirdly it ignores just how easily those complicated arguments can be solved by admitting that Mat has an ability for luck**

Call said **And admitting a stork left you on your parent's doorstep is ignoring how much easier it is that the explanation about how life begins.**

Incredibly poor example…that is an explanation used for young children, because their parents don’t want them to know about sex yet.

The tooth fairy and Santa Clause are other ‘explantions’ to kids about how money gets left by their bedside if they leave their lost tooth in a glass of water by their bed, and how presents arrive at Christmas…they are just stories…not actual explanations.

…….

**You're trying to give a fabricated answer to something that doesn't need to be explained at all beyond what we've already been told many times: Mat is ta'veren.**

We've told you? Don’t you mean ‘I’VE’ Callandor? …and I’ve noticed a few people agree with me…Tamyrlin included it seems (unless he’s changed his mind), and a few others besides…so the ‘YOU’ is inaccurate too…and I know how you love accuracy in written word (just like the DO being free)

Still…Odd how so many people have had to come up with such complicated explanations, and how they still don’t have answers for RJ’s ‘in a way Mat has the DO’s own luck’, the prophecy ‘luck his soul’, RJ’s highlighting of Mat’s luck over and above everyone else in Randland, the inconsistences between MDL and TVL…

…

Yup…I can see how you arrived at your quote…not at all.

**And you say I have diversions.**

I think other people can see it for themselves. I’ll simply keep posting them as they crop up.

…..

**You say that only Mat has been refered to as having the Dark One's own luck -- I refute this, then you try to dismiss it. Doesn't work that way.**

Call, I said that I was wrong on re the only person to receive that comment …yet the central point is still true…and as such, I modified it to ‘Mat is the only one to have received that comment multiple times’…..and ‘RJ has further singled Mat out in interview re this’, and ‘RJ has highlighted Mat’s luck over and above every other character’…it’s all part of the one.

….

**3. In reference to your Jordan quote, you still have not posted the entire question -- just the answer. I have the strangest feeling that if you post that question, you'll find out why Jordan "singled" out Mat.**

It’s already been posted here somewhere – it was an answer from the ‘did lanfer do anything to mat in Tar Valon’ question.

….

I said **Uh yeah…even when the attributes of TVL don’t match the attributes of MDL, that’s a far stretch.**

Call said**Once again, would you care to cite an example rather than generalize?**

Call later said **On a separate note: of course the attributes don't match…**

Arguing with yourself? But thank you for the admission.

Still, no new evidence on either side.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-27

**Yes, it is stating the obvious; apparently you continue to miss how this obvious statement completely nullifies any claim that the "dicing luck" is "simpler." You claim there are two overlapping processes going on here: ta'veren in some situations, and "dicing luck" in others. I say, and the books say, it's all one thing: ta'veren. So, how is your explanation "simpler" by any means at all?**

Amazing, where is this book quote that says MDL=TVL? You know much better - the books don't say MDL=TVL, in any shape or form.

...MDL being an ability of Mat’s certainly offers a simplified explanation. People just need to go through this theory and look at each of the complications ranging against MDL=TVL….then ask themselves ‘Would an inborn MDL ability offer a very simple answer for those complications?’

Callandor: 2006-05-28

**The quotes you supplied do not say that he cannot physically say the words, they say that He says he cannot. What one says one cannot do, and what one cannot do are seperate.**

Yes, they are. Which is why in this instance, Mat cannot physically say the words:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 13 - Rumors

"Burn me, I will g--" He could not say it. Thinking of going was easy enough, but saying he would? His throat tightened up to strangle the words. "Is it easy for you, Perrin? Going, I mean? Don't you... fee anything? Trying to hold you back? Telling you reasons you shouldn't go?"

...

"Burn me, Perrin. Burn me! I want to g-g--See? I can't even say it, now. Like my head knows I'll do it if I say it. I can't even get it out in my mind!"**

Mat cannot physically say the words.

**If it could control, and remove free will, this ta'verenness, then it would have right there wouldn't it?**

Uh, yeah, and it did. Hence why Mat cannot say he will go with Perrin. He wants to, but he physically cannot.

**Now as for your mention of the dragons prophecies, you are 100% right, the books show that they are prophecies, tried and true, but at the same time, a few contradict each other. In minor ways. Not all the prophecies were written by female channelers during the breaking, some of the quotes in the books from the many propecies, say they are from totally different ages.**

4th Age Prophecies are different from Prophecies of the Dragon.

But it still doesn't change the fac that they are real prophecies, and will come to pass no matter what.

**A name of the dragon reborn is vague. It is also a possibility that LTT was a "dragon reborn" they called him the dragon if memory serves, but people call rand that as well.**

No, Lews Therin was the Dragon. His soul reborn, Rand al'Thor, is the Dragon Reborn. It's one of the basic foundations of the series.

**The wheel weaves as the wheel wills, who knows what it has woven?**

Well, we do, since we've seen that Lews Therin was the Dragon, and Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn.

**I agree with snakesnfoxes, mat does seem to have "MDL + TVL" both forms of luck have seemed to show themselves.**

Based on what?

One is a tried, true, many times seen, and much explained fundamental aspect of the world: ta'vereness.

The other is a completely made up, and unnecessary ability. It's a fabrication to fill a role that is already completely explained by ta'vereness. It's needless complication of a very simple thing.

**Sogoloth - Alrighty, yet another reference to the heroes of the horn ALL being ta'veren. Certainly the idea does make sense, but I don't remember if they all were. Nowhere does it say that all heroes (I mean in general, not just with the horn) are ta'veren. Why would you have to be a ta'veren to be tied to the horn?**

The Heroes of the Horn are the corrective mechanisms of the Wheel; ta'veren are also the corrective mechanisms of the Wheel. It's very simple that all Heroes of the Horn are ta'veren, but just that not all ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn.

**This is just a loose thread to proove that once someone is ta'veren they are always ta'veren which has been proven many times, to be false.**

Yet Hawkwing, and Rand, prove this to be true. They both died (well, Rand will die) still being ta'veren. Not every ta'veren is like this, of course.

**The last time rand had been spun out onto the pattern was when he was LTT? Not totally believeable. Was he ta'veren EVERY time he was spun out? I doubt it.**

Uh.

1. Why is it doubtful that Rand's last incarnation was Lews Therin? That's yet again another foundation of the series.

2. Yes, the Dragon soul will always be ta'veren (not it's entire life, but it will be used to become ta'veren):

**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**

**Just because there is no evidence in the book about a character that rarely even shows up in the books, does not mean that something did not happen. Lack of evidence has never proven that things happened.**

Which is why the evidence is pointing to him still being ta'veren. From whenever he first became ta'veren, to his rise, and all the impact he had right up to his death.

**In reference to Artur hawkwing, If he is so 'pivotal' than why is not in this age born to rule as he did before? He Was pivotal, but he isn't so much pivotal now is he?**

What are you talking about? Hawkwing shaped major parts of the 3rd Age, and what he did is still impacting the world today (most notably the Seanchan of course). That's pivotal.

**There is very sketchy evidence that rand is tied to the horn, as the heroes recognize him, but these two ta'veren being tied to the horn does not prove that ALL of the horn's heroes are ta'veren.**

Right, since you know, you haven't given any other example to show a Hero of the Horn not being a ta'veren yet....

Jordan:

**Q: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man. Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things alltogether?

A: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.

Q: So threads and souls are the same thing?

A: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment.

The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.

Q: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

A: What? Do they have souls you mean?



Q: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

A: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.**

Heroes of the Horn = proper correctives.

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta'veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta'maral'ailen, or the "Web of Destiny."

Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.**

Ta'veren = the proper correctives.

Once again, all Heroes of the Horn are ta'veren. Not all ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn.

**And if it does not prove that, then it also does not prove that being a ta'veren is permanent.**

But Hawkwing's lives and Rand's life does show that it can be.

**This makes it hard to define ANYTHING about being ta'veren, whether they are woven out, or their thread is modified after it has been woven etc.**

Uh, ta'veren, like anyone else, are spun out by the Wheel.

And if your feelings really are "Well, we can't know everything, so we can't know anything." then you're going to be really counter-productive to any type of discussion.

Oatman: 2006-05-29

You know what, you've converted me. Mats Dicing Luck is indeed different from his Ta'veren luck. In fact, you have been so convincing that I now believe that all the coincidinces which keep saving Rands life are not, in fact ta'veren, but rather its Rands Survival Luck.

Also, Perrin can't actually talk to wolves, he's just crazy and THINKS he can. That they arrive to help him when he needs them to is actually Perrins Wolf Luck. Makes perfect sense to me, how about S-n-F?

Callandor: 2006-05-29

**I’ve already covered this one with you Callandor (though only briefly). I said it is the strongest evidence you have for your stance…but it is the only example in 11 books (where it 'appears' that the ta’veren could not truly ignore it)…from memory, we have older evidence of Perrin feeling ‘Rand needs me’…but Perrin followed that feeling of his own free will.**

So, the only example given that completely destroys your assertion that ta'veren still make the choice, is some how irrelevant?

Bottom line, when it comes to a matter of central importance "choice" has nothing to do with it. Things will happen exactly as the Wheel/Pattern wants, as Mat's example shows completely.

**However, we also have newer evidence of the pattern tinkering with all three ta’veren’s minds (the colours), and with practice they are able to ignore them. So It may be that Mat only needed practice to be able to ignore it (and he didn’t have any practice at ignoring it), or it may truly be that Mat had no way whatsoever of ignoring it.**

And how is it that the colors are now subsituting for the Wheel/Pattern's control?

The colors are completely irrelevant to this. This is all about whether ta'veren truly decide what to do (IE: they have "choice"). Mat's example shows that when it comes to matters centrally important to the Wheel/Pattern, they have none. End of story.

**Your example only is a singular instance…and as we have newer examples of the Pattern tinkering with ta’veren minds…and with practice they are able to ignore that tinkering, the example you have provided is not quite conclusive proof….a very good and supporting quote, but not quite conclusive proof.**

Again, the colors have nothing to do with this. And, it doesn't matter if there is one example of it, five examples of it, or a hundred -- there is still ONE INSTANCE where your assertion is completely false. Hence, it's not true for all instances, and you're continuing to stipulate for a false assumption.

Matters of central importance to the Wheel/Pattern go the way the Wheel/Pattern wants, not the way the ta'veren "decides."

**You see what I mean…your belief that I am completely agreeing with you, comes down to your philosophy of what free will is.**

Yet again, my view of what free will has nothing to do with this -- we're dealing with what is free will in the Wheel of Time. We're told explicitly what that is.

**I am quite strongly disagreeing with you, and pointing out that even in the most difficult of circumstances (do this or die)…we still have free will.**

Maybe in the real world, but once again, we're not discussing that. We're discussing the Wheel of Time. I quoted an instance of "difficult of circumstances" and you even blithely agreed it was an instance where Mat had no choice at all in the matter.

**That’s just silly…the characters are RJ.**

No, there is a great deal of difference in what the characters say and what Jordan himself says. Egwene has said before that Rand Compelled sisters in Cairhien -- is this Jordan saying it? No, because it didn't happen. It's Egwene saying what she beliefs. What Jordan says is very different from what the characters say, though at some instances they do allign.

**I got a chuckle out of this one. Firstly, almost the whole of your first post, was in reply to things I never said…so almost nothing was refuted.**

Yet again, care to bring any specifics into this discussion instead of just making generalities and assertions?

**I’ve replied to most points made where there was no rudeness in your posts. But of course, as always, you see things only the way you wish to.**

Wow, as if that wasn't the most hypocritical thing I've heard someone say. Once again, you're the one completely ignoring entire posts here. I've replied to every single one of yours and to all your points, and refuted them. I'm not seeing this my way; I'm stating it as how it is.

**A diversion from a diversion Call ? You didn’t deny anything I said…simply tried to divert attention…I’m impressed that you would stack diversions, but this tactic is getting incredibly old.**

Again, if you cared to read the posts I presented, cared to discuss the points and how they are "diversions" instead of just saying generalities and assertions.

**Throughout many of my posts here in Theoryland, you are the only one that manages to misinterpret things I say on a regular basis. This no longer surprises me, but as you continue to insist your misinterpretations are correct, it does make any sort of sensible discussion difficult.**

Once again, care to list any specifics instead of just generalities and assertions? "You're misinterpreting me!" Yeah? Where? Show me some examples instead of repeatedly decrying the exact same generality.

**Call, a debate has a central theme. No debate can make sense if you are talking about two different things…you were replying to things I never said…so a reply to them would not be in direct relation to the ‘theory’ I posted…it wouldn’t make sense in relation to the theory…and so it would be pointless…why then should I debate those answers?**

Uh huh, once again (have you picked up on any themes here, yet?), care to list any specifics? As well, you're just trying to say "I consider your words trash, so I won't even reply to them." When I list objections and refutations, you conviently say they are misinterpretations, and can't possibly bring yourself to reply.

**I pointed out many specific holes in the argument right back from my first post. We are going around in circles here.**

No kidding we are. Once again, you "pointed out holes", I replied, and then you deliberately ignored all my posts. Hmmmmmm.... Hard to have any discussion when evidence that completely refutes your points is just ignored out right. So, yes, we are going around in circles. You keep saying you've listed these holes, I replied there are no such things, and then you keep on insisting that there are because you ignore the evidence.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-30

For a while now Callandor has been making numerous complaints that I have been ignoring his evidence. I’ve since gone back over his posts, to try and find his ‘evidence’ that I’ve been supposedly ignoring, and found he has posted very little evidence…most of his posts answered very little of what I posted – either ‘misinterpreting’ what I said, or outright ignoring what I said and diverting attention onto other subjects.

Setting aside Callandors many ‘misinterpretations’ in his first reply post (I already pointed them out in my first reply to Callandor – so there is no need to repeat myself on them)… for those who are interested, the following post contains the main points of my post, and Callandors replies to them. I’ve tried to keep them short, but in context (and of course, if they are out of context, I’m sure Callandor will happily correct me).

Of course, I won’t repost my whole first post…that’s too big, and it’s already there if that particular context (or the book quoted evidence) is needed by someone.

The one part I will leave out is ‘The Pattern Provides What is Needful’ argument… it’s too big (but if necessary I can make it a separate post)

PS…it’s a long post, so don’t bother reading if you aren’t interested…in the end it doesn’t achieve anything except to refute an ongoing and silly claim.

…………

4.4 TA’VEREN LUCK IS BOTH GOOD AND BAD.

I said **Rand (while acknowledging that he does have good luck) has had some very unfortunate things happen to him:

Reference 3.4.1 – 3.4.8 (original mistake in numbering, should be 4.4.1 – 4.4.8)

Calls reply

***Thing is none of these are "luck." Rand being born the Dragon Reborn is hardly luck -- that's pure fate. Rand being born when he was born -- again, pure fate. Again the entire argument relies on the Pattern/Wheel determining these things to happen, not just them randomly happening.***

Perhaps some of my examples were poor…but of course Callandor simply ignored the good examples...the examples of bad luck that don’t help the pattern in anyway whatsoever :

- Rand getting his hand blown off (predicted by Min?... But how does it in any way help the Pattern?)

- Rand choosing Dashiva (one of the forsaken)

- The Politicking of the various Lords/Monarchs/Empires/Amyrlin Seats

- Having to pick Taim (instead of Logain, who seems good)

Of course, the whole point of the numerous examples were to point out that Ta’veren do have both bad luck and good luck (I remember a number of people suggesting that they only have good luck)…

….leading to the fact that bad luck must balance the good luck (specific/quoted book evidence re this)…

…Callandor never countered, nor even addressed the book evidence which specifically states that Ta’veren must have bad luck to balance the good…he can’t counter address it because it’s written in black and white, and there is no book quote to the contrary….so no evidence presented there.

…..

However, Call did have this reply

I said ***Ta’veren luck is both good and bad – an almost undebatable truth. Mat, in relation to dicing since Tar Valon, never loses more than he wins, and therefore can be said to never have bad dicing luck.**

Call said ***It's amazing that you draw parallels for "bad luck" in Rand from a variety of sources -- yet for Mat you focus narrowly on just the dice and say there's no bad luck. Isn't it bad luck that Mat got saddled with a wife? Isn't it bad luck that Mat had a building fall on him? Isn't it bad luck that Mat got hung in Rhuidean? Isn't it bad luck that Mat was killed by Rahvin? Isn't it bad luck that Mat has to remember dying so many times? Isn't it bad luck for Mat to be born in a time full of male channelers with the taint? Isn't it bad luck that Mat picked up the Shadar Logoth dagger?***

Call of course, hasn’t answered what I said in any way, shape or form..he can’t as everything I’ve said in that quote, is either very obvious, or backed up by specific book quotes.

So once more he offers no evidence to counter what I said.

…still..I did make reference to Rand’s bad luck…so in answer to his reply :

Mat doesn’t consider TDoNM bad luck – he loves her. The hanging in Rhuidean had nothing at all to do with luck - that was the conscious action of the Snakes-n-foxes with Mat’s ‘payment’ their sole objective… I also doubt that Mat considers his new memories bad luck – they are keeping him alive in battles…andyes you could call it bad luck being born in a time full of male channellers -but hardly terrible luck – Mat’s not the one going mad. That leaves two of his examples left : The dagger sure was bad luck, same with the building falling on him…though the building turned out to be good luck too.

….

In a subsequent post I said **If Mat’s Dicing Luck was Ta’veren luck, then his Dicing Luck should be subject to the same rules as Ta’veren luck – by exhibiting balance (ie by exhibiting both good and bad luck)**

Call replied

***1. As you agreed before, Mat does lose games. He doesn't win every single toss, and his luck goes in cycles.***

Once more Call agrees with me while trying not to…because Mat never loses more than he wins.

then Call said ***2. The entire point I was making is that you're being incredibly general in what you say is "bad luck" in Rand (down to his fated events for crying out loud such as being born), but being ignorantly selective regarding Mat and saying that his dicing luck is the only factor to look at there… ***

This is true…Mat’s Dicing Luck should be subject to the same rules as normal Ta’veren luck…that’s plain logical..

…but with your view…in order for TVL to balance…because Mat has consistent very good luck with dice…to balance that, Mat must have consistent very bad luck elsewhere….plus…to balance Mat’s normal good TVL…he has to have bad TVL luck….so Mat would have stacking sets of Bad Luck (just as he would have stacking sets of good luck MDL + TVL – if both were TVL)…



….Unless someone is prepared to go through the books and add up the amount of bad luck Rand and Mat have…to my knowledge Mat appears to have less bad luck than Rand does….which doesn’t agree with your.

But when we bring it back to the bare basics, once more…I have given a book quoted situation of TVL attributes…to which can compare MDL attributes…and they don’t match….but the reply you have offered is only opinion…so once more no evidence

………

TA’VEREN LUCK SPREADS OUT IN ODD, RANDOM WAYS

TFOH CH30

”I am sorry,” he (Rand in relation to all the Maidens all throwing 6’s) told her without thinking, and she gave him a peculiar look. She did not know, of course; he had not spread it around. The ripple he gave off as ta'veren spread out in odd, random ways.

Proven throughout the books, and through Rands thoughts. Ta’veren ‘luck’ that effects people surrounding the Ta’veren never stays focused on any one person or any one thing for any period of time. Yet Mat’s Dicing Luck always remains focused on Mat, and Mat alone.

Call’s reply

Can’t find Calls direct reply to this. Maybe he agrees (or I missed it).

…………

6. THE NATURE OF MAT’S DICING LUCK

I said

****The Maidens example of Ta’veren (and many other Ta’veren examples)

- effects other people

- effected all other people present

-did not stay focused on the Maidens;

While Mat’s Dicing luck :

- Only ever effects Mat

- Stays focused on Mat****

Call said ***You can say that the ta'veren effect effected the dice -- the same as Mat's ta'veren effect would. And, again, we've seen the effects of ta'vereness working specifically on the ta'veren alone -- how is this any different at all?

(and)

You can say that "Mat's luck" also effects his opponents, since it establishes what he has to beat.***

Basically we have a specific example here of how Ta’verenness effects dicing luck, yet Callandor, has ignored the obvious conclusions that I drew in my above quote.

Callandor has only offered his opinion, but given no example/evidence to back up his opinion…this is because there is no example in the books where a Ta’veren has the same sort of luck over and over again (in the same way as MDL)

……

At the end of my original post, as a summary of one of the problems (evidenced in the main post) with TVL=MDL I said :

**Rands ‘luck effect’ never stays focused vs Mat’s permanently focused dicing luck**

Call said ***And you call other factors dubious? You use ta'veren luck to explain everything else than dicing, yet for some reason when it comes to this extreme it has to be something completely different.***

Perhaps, because it was a summary (the evidence being in the main body), I didn’t put enough words in for Callandor….

…it is blatantly obvious that Rand’s Ta’veren luck effect never stays focused on any one single thing – this was proven in the main body of my post through book quotes, and is seen throughout the books…yet MDL is always focused on Mat (again blatantly obvious). But Callandor somehow arrives at the conclusion that my statement is dubious, yet never justifies why…instead immediately jumping to a different subject (that of ‘extremes’, rather than the subject at hand – ‘ongoing focus’).

……….

7. THE QUALITY/QUANTITY OF MAT’S DICING LUCK

I think we can all accept that since Tar Valon, Mat has never lost more than he won at dice (as there is no example anywhere in the book of such a thing happening)

Call’s reply

***But he does lose***

Which of course is what I said (**Mat has never lost more than he won**), and offers no evidence against what I said.

….

I said **Mat permanently winning more than he loses.... at every single session of dice he sit down to.... I will leave this up to you to decide whether or not such a thing is even theoretically possible in nature.**

Call said **Is it theoretically possible for Mat to sit down and win one game of dice? Yes or no?

Obviously the anwer is yes. This is just an extreme case of that -- added into this, Mat doesn't win every toss, every game.**

Of course I had book evidence stating that Ta’veren ‘luck’ must be things that are possible in nature…and Call’s answer doesn’t present any evidence against this, just his opinion…

….because Mat can obviously win one game…to Callandor it also means that in nature it would be theoretically possible Mat can win every session that he sits down to (within that session he does lose, but never more than he wins).

Callandor offers no evidence, but as I said in my quote…I will leave it up to individuals to decide if the above is possible.

……….

At the end of my original post, in summary of the body of the post – as one of the ‘problems’ with the argument of TVL=MDL, I said

**Ta’veren good & bad luck vs Mat’s only good dicing luck.**

Callandor said ***Terrible reasoning again. You're simply saying that everything remotely possibly bad in Rand's life is bad luck (fate or not), but only looking at Mat's dicing luck for examples of "good luck." Talk about ignoring other examples.***

Callandor ignores that book quotes specifically say Ta’veren luck is balanced – it is both good and bad…against that, it is simple fact that Mat has only good dicing luck (he never loses more than he wins in a session)…both halves of the statement are book quote proven…yet Callandor, says they are not - and offers not a single piece of book evidence.

(Rand’s examples were of course to show how known Ta’veren luck works)

………….

I said ****Robert Jordan saying in an interview. “When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.”**

Call’s reply

And...?

The standard reply when Call has no counter (or no reply at all)…because there is no logical counter for this…the only way to counter this is to in someway say ‘in a way the DO’s own luck = Ta’veren luck’.

If Mat’s ‘in a way the DO’s own luck’ can’t be explained as Ta’veren, then it HAS to be something else. As it’s very obvious that RJ purposely singled Mat’s luck out when he said this (as RJ has been doing throughout the books for quite a while now) , it’s almost impossible to argue that the ‘in a way the DO’s own luck’ is in reference to TVL.

Once again, no evidence offered by Call.

…..

***Prophecy ‘luck his soul’***

Call’s reply

Call agreed in another theory on Mat’s luck, that Mat’s luck was tied to his soul

Someone said **- naming Mat as lucky in the prophecy you quoted,**

Call replied **Which can easily be ta'vereness as the "luck."**

Except of course that :

- Call agreed in another thread that Mat’s Luck was linked to his soul, and

- no other Ta’veren has a similar prophetic luck mention; and

- it’s just like a multitude of other quotes that single Mat’s luck out.

I later posted a whole heap of quotes showing how Mat’s luck is highlighted over and above every other person. The concept being that no single quote specifically shows that there is something odd about Mat’s luck, but that all together it strongly suggests either ‘something odd about Mat’s luck’ or that there is something more to Mat’s luck than normal TVL.

Call dealt with each separately…but ignored reaching any conclusion about the all quotes together as a whole.

But as an idea of his individual handling of the quotes :

I said **- Thom naming Mat 'the luckiest man in the world' (KoD)**

Call said **And people exclaim all the time about the strange things that happen around Rand -- does Rand have a strange ability, now**

Once more, mine was a direct book quote…Callandor offered no book quote evidence in reply.

…….

I said **In other words, being Ta’veren is not a one dimensional thing... they do more than just tug at the threads of the pattern, they also effect chance around them, and the pattern in turn tugs at them.**

Call said ******The problem is that you see luck as this entirely different thing that what it is. Luck in the Wheel of Time is not what we take it to be; luck in any world of predestination isn't what we take it to be (since we don't live in a world accepting predestination).

In the Wheel of Time there's the illusion of luck. Things happen for a specific reason or they don't brought about by control of the Pattern/Wheel. Ta'veren are just the pinnicle of this. A ta'veren being "lucky" isn't them being lucky -- it's the Pattern/Wheel determining the events for them to happen. People just look at it and say "Hey, that's lucky!" or if they're educated they say "Ta'veren."******

What I said, was of course backed up by book quotes. Call’s reply doesn’t actually make any comment on what I said (and offers no quotes besides)…so he presented no evidence against what I said.

……….

Call said ***Two points I can't help but stress enough as the undoing of this entire post. ***

I said *****This is to say that Rand’s ‘luck’ effects people around Rand, and never stays focused on any particular object/item/person for any length of time (ie. a day or more). This thought of Rand’s is also backed up by so many examples in the books that I doubt anyone needs any examples to accept this as fact.

It is also important to note at this stage, that ALL the dicing maidens were throwing 6’s...

... Yet on the flip side - because Rand’s ripple spreads out in odd & random ways, it is also definitely possible for a single person – and not an entire group – to keep throwing winners around Rand... for a time at least.******

Call then said ***Then how is it that Rand, Mat, and Perrin are "lucky" enough to survive all their dangerous encounters? It's ridiculous to assume that ta'veren effects of "luck" only spread outwards but are never focused on the individual for the specific needs of the Pattern/Wheel (IE: the Pattern wants to keep Rand alive to win the Last Battle, so his "luck" brought on by his ta'vereness will make his slow down in order to miss an arrow being shot at where he would be or trip to miss an attack that is where he would've been -- similarly, it's what provides for those ever present objects that are given before the ta'veren needs them).***

Here Call claims **Two points I can't help but stress enough as the undoing of this entire post** and quotes me…. but doesn’t actually reply in answer anything contained in the quotes…which are specifically in relation to Ta’veren CAUSING Dicing Luck (the maidens)…and how the TVL didn’t stay focused forever on the maidens (so the dicing luck went away), how EVERY maiden was throwing 6’s (not just a single person like Mat), how it was OTHER people (not just the Ta’veren) throwing 6’s etc.

Callandor offered did not offer any quotes, did not try to counter a specific dicing luck example…simply tried to divert the conversation to something less specific.

So once more, he offers no evidence offered against what I said.

…………

Other Minor ‘evidence’ presented by Call…

I said **The only true conclusion that can be drawn from this, is that MAT REMEMBER’S BEING LUCKY BEFORE HE BECAME TA’VEREN. Of course, that luck was no where near the dicing luck he now enjoys.**

Call said ***And...?

Mat won and lost gambling before he became ta'veren. He succeeded and failed at tricks before he became ta'veren. And...?***

Of course this was only a very minor argument of mine, but Call’s reply is misleading – yes Mat won and lost at gambling…if you want to boil it that far…Mat still wins and loses at gambling…yet there is a world of difference is there not?

The ***And…?*** Suggests Call has no counter to this, but rather, just wishes to dimiss it.

Still, Mat remembers being lucky ‘more than others’ before becoming Ta’veren, was the only point I was making there. People can make of it what they want.

……..

I said **Mat’s particular luck is not restricted to dice, but dice are the best manifestation of it, as the fall of the dice are the closest thing to pure chance that Mat plays.**

Call said ***Except for battles, which even Mat says dice don't hold a comparsion to for "chance."***

Debatable, but doesn’t exactly answer what I said…one involves pure chance (dice), the other involves human numbers + leadership/training/cohesion/will/strength/speed/skill + equipment/weapons + logistics + chance (battle).

At least some evidence there.

…….

I said **It perhaps could be said to fluctuate, or cycle, up and down in terms of just how good his luck with the dice is (over a period of time).

This fluctuation of course, only occurs within the positive range of luck (ie - its never bad – he always wins more than he loses)**

Call said **That's not a cycle then.**

Call it a fluctuation then…but once again, no evidence offered against what I said.

…..

The discussion then went into Predestination, which I didn’t take part in for a time, but Callandors claims of ignoring his so called evidence, appears to be in relation to what he said near the start.

So in summary, while Call has certainly corrected/ruled out a couple of things I said in my original posts, they were in the end, minor points…and as anyone who cares to look can see…he offered very very little in the way of ‘evidence’.

So in the end, Callandor doesn’t really have any justification for saying that I’ve been ignoring his ‘evidence’.

Saidar Haran: 2006-05-30

**Q: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

A: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.**

Heroes of the Horn = proper correctives.

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta'veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta'maral'ailen, or the "Web of Destiny."

Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.**

Ta'veren = the proper correctives.

Once again, all Heroes of the Horn are ta'veren. Not all ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn. **

Cal, that logic is flawed. You are saying that because one group has a certain purpose, and another group shares that purpose, they are the same groups, when nothing says this and the only evidence for it is Hawking and Rand/LTT, both of which could be isolated cases. I don't buy it.

Saidar Haran: 2006-05-30

**I have yet to see any explanation for any given situation that can be explained as "Oh, it's dicing luck there." **

What about when Mat was dicing with Haral(? that guy in Tear who used weighted dice) and those weighted dice, which are designed to ALWAYS roll the same, are twisted into a better toss? Ta'veren can cause something to happen if it could have happened anyway, however rarely. However, weighted dice should ALWAYS show the same faces, and therefore ta'veren shouldn't be able to affect them. Since they clearly were affected, there must be something other than Ta'veren at work.

sogoloth: 2006-05-30

Hello Aryl,

*** Sogoloth - Alrighty, yet another reference to the heroes of the horn ALL being ta'veren. Certainly the idea does make sense, but I don't remember if they all were. Nowhere does it say that all heroes (I mean in general, not just with the horn) are ta'veren. Why would you have to be a ta'veren to be tied to the horn? This is just a loose thread to proove that once someone is ta'veren they are always ta'veren which has been proven many times, to be false. Someone may be given ta'verenness multiple times, in many lives, but that avoids the other lives each person lives. The last time rand had been spun out onto the pattern was when he was LTT? Not totally believeable. Was he ta'veren EVERY time he was spun out? I doubt it. Do people recieve ta'verenness more than once? Undoubtedly. But it is possible to both gain and lose ta'verenness in the middle of ones life. This has, I believe, been said by Jordan himself. Thought obviously not in those words. Also your argument "I do not believe that Artur Hawking ever had Ta’veren fade from him, and there has been no evidence in the books that it did." Just because there is no evidence in the book about a character that rarely even shows up in the books, does not mean that something did not happen. Lack of evidence has never proven that things happened. Quite the opposite. "Being described as the greatest Ta’veren since LTT makes it fairly clear that he is one of the Wheel’s pivotal Ta’veren" In reference to Artur hawkwing, If he is so 'pivotal' than why is not in this age born to rule as he did before? He Was pivotal, but he isn't so much pivotal now is he? There is very sketchy evidence that rand is tied to the horn, as the heroes recognize him, but these two ta'veren being tied to the horn does not prove that ALL of the horn's heroes are ta'veren. And if it does not prove that, then it also does not prove that being a ta'veren is permanent. The evidence you have supplied keeps saying "by what we’ve been shown so far" but by what we've been shown so far is that we do not know any of the real rules that bind one to the horn, much less any set rules on being ta'veren. This makes it hard to define ANYTHING about being ta'veren, whether they are woven out, or their thread is modified after it has been woven etc. You did say "imo" so I have to settle with that, I have many imo's on these matters. But we have to try and realize we don't know the rules. We can guess, or suppose, or have opinions, but we can't use any of these three to "Prove" anything really. ***

I use “imo” because that’s exactly what it is – my opinion. Sure I could be wrong. But then, so could everyone else who posts here. This is, after all, THEORYLAND. They are all theories until proven otherwise by RJ. The difference with my opinions is that I refer to the books to support them, not just my own personal beliefs. I’ll definitely be interested in finding out the reality on this theory (reality being a term I’m using loosely – this is a fantasy novel, after all). But for the record there is a lot of evidence in the books that supports the idea that Hero’s of the Horn are all Ta’veren, and NONE supporting the idea that they aren’t. If you feel I’m wrong on this assertion please supply evidence from the books or RJ himself.

As for your assertions about Rand/Hawking and their bonds to the Horn… I must admit I’m not really sure where you’re going with that. Rand’s soul is the same soul as LTT. This is confirmed in the books several times, including by Hawking in TGH as well as RJ himself. Actually, this is one of the foundations of the series. To say that the Dragon’s soul has been spun out after the events in the prelude of TEoTW (scene w/ Ishy) yet before Rand was born… well that is supposition on a whole new level friend. Show me some proof – any proof!! – of that and I will gladly recant. Until that time… you’re grasping at straws bro, and coming up with naught but air.

And as for your question as to why Hawking was not spun out to rule again. DUH! This is the DRAGON REBORN’s time. Hawking served his purpose for this Age. The events that made Hawking pivotal happened a long time ago, yet they were crucial to the storyline for the current events. This has been stated several times in both the BWB and the books proper. To ask that question tells me that you either don’t understand my counterpoints or you are arguing for the sake of argument. To state that Hawking was not a pivotal character for the events going on in Randland is ludicrous. True he is only referenced. But the events that revolved around him have had a HUGE impact upon the current storyline. To deny that… well lets just say you may want to re-read the series, and try to stay sober this time =P

All kidding aside, I’m basing my opinions off evidence that is available in the books. This does not make me correct, but it does add weight to my arguments. I did not see anything in your post that was backed up by evidence in the books or by RJ himself. Quite the opposite, your entire post is supposition w/o the presentation of any evidence. It is possible I may have missed something, and if so I apologize. Can you point it out for me if that is the case? I’m happy to re-evaluate my opinion given any new evidence that supports this theory. I currently do not feel anything you said was evidence of any kind, so much as your opinion – which of course you are entitled to – yet I feel evidence is needed to substantiate your claims. I have presented evidence from the books to support my opinions. Callandor has also graciously provided several quotes directly from RJ and the books themselves that add weight to my opinions, even if they were addressed to others. Can you do the same?

Aryl: 2006-05-31

Call- I honestly don't know whether I should be proud that I said something of great debate here that you should feel you need to correct me with such depth. Or whether I should feel like a small child, one that deserves to be berated. So I will start by trying to defend my points.

In trying to keep this post somewhat short I will just quote what your responses to my post were. If you need what I posted, it is just up there.

"His throat tightened up to strangle the words."

Even this is not proof that he did not have a choice, it shows that it would be Difficult, yes, but it does not say he COULD NOT say the words. It does seem to hint doesn't it? Unfortunately a hint doesn't always mean what it seems it means. Mat is and has always been somewhat of a person who worries he might get caught. He thinks ahead, though he doesn't always think of things the way they end up, he does think aheaad. That kind of thinking means he would not want to really go ahead, something in his head pulls him back (this was not said to be his ta'vereness, so there is no proof that this particular moment it is 'taking over' as you seem to believe. Yes it is quite POSSIBLE that he is physically unable to do this, but all, we have to go on is what he Felt, not what really is going on. RJ likes leading us on merry goose chases, and making us doubt what is going on. He has made that clear. He has Intentionally made being a ta'veren somewhat misty, not all there. It's only partially shaded in. We don't know ALL the facts.

Indeed 4th age prophecies are different than the prophecies of the dragon. Let's say your right and leave that one there, because that's a true statement.

My rant on the LTT being a possible also dragon reborn is indeed just a theory, however, if the wheel keeps going and going... Then what was he before he became "The Dragon", just an interesting note. The DO in rands dreams speaks of many battles many times before, now later we find out that he is a liar (wow what a suprise) but was he lieing about that? have they fought time beyond count? then what was he called before then? *shrugs* who knows, it wasn't written yet, it's either a RAFO or it won't be written.

Yes LTT was the dragon, I am not fool enough to dispute that, I was just musing that maybe he [like rand] was called in generic "Dragon" and maybe he was also a dragon reborn, but really there isn't much foundation there, just odd musings. So lets put that one to rest.

Next. I don't have quote's handy on the whold tvl+mdl, so I will have to concede that point as well, at least until someone else finds a quote that seems to line up in that direction.

I must say though about your "The other is a completely made up, and unnecessary ability. It's a fabrication to fill a role that is already completely explained by ta'vereness. It's needless complication of a very simple thing. " RJ's whole world is just a completely made up world. If he so wishes to Add new abilities (which makes me wish I had his quote on this) I seem to remember him saying he did exactly this thing, but anyways, if he so wishes, then he can. What more reason?

Oooo this next one here's a doozy. It's grasping at straws. "The Heroes of the Horn are the corrective mechanisms of the Wheel; ta'veren are also the corrective mechanisms of the Wheel. It's very simple that all Heroes of the Horn are ta'veren, but just that not all ta'veren are Heroes of the Horn. "

So... Because they are both correcting mechanisms then ONE of them must all be the other but not the other way around? That's like saying comparing oranges and baseballs. All oranges must be baseballs, but not all baseballs are oranges? Where did this logic come from? I saw NOWHERE in the books that it says that ALL heroes of the horn are ta'veren. It's just "simple" as you say, or let me infer that you mean simple logic, that says that because they are both corrective mechanisms, they one must ALL be the other. It really makes no sense that way. Sure glasses and contact lense are both corrective for sight problems, but so is braille and also audio ques... And those aren't worn on the eyes. Sometimes there is more than one method to Correct something.

You say that hawkwing and rand prove that once a ta'veren, always a ta'veren. Skipping ahead a bit with this very point is this "2. Yes, the Dragon soul will always be ta'veren (not it's entire life, but it will be used to become ta'veren): " What does this even mean? He will always be, but not his entire life? If will be used to become ta'veren? I thought that rand was always ta'veren? Now I'm confused? And as for Hawkwing, they didn't say he died ta'veren. They say he was rumoured to have died ta'veren. Sogoloth's quote if was "I do not believe that Artur Hawking ever had Ta’veren fade from him, and there has been no evidence in the books that it did." All I said is that if the books have no proof, then they have just that, no proof, and just because there is no proof, you cannot say that absence of proof proves something really.

Next - "1. Why is it doubtful that Rand's last incarnation was Lews Therin? That's yet again another foundation of the series." That is a quote from you... and this seems to be something you quoted not long afterwards..."A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age." If he was born in other ages in a non-Dragon incarnation, than LTT, was not indeed rands previous incarnation. Doesn't that make sense?

Now about the good mr hawkwing being pivotal, yes indeed the things he did are still pivotal, but I meant the things he may have done since he was indeed good ol artur... Any more recent incations would seem to support my theory.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-01

Hello Oatman

***In fact, you have been so convincing that I now believe that all the coincidinces which keep saving Rands life are not, in fact ta'veren, but rather its Rands Survival Luck.

Also, Perrin can't actually talk to wolves, he's just crazy and THINKS he can. That they arrive to help him when he needs them to is actually Perrins Wolf Luck. Makes perfect sense to me, how about S-n-F?***

If it makes sense to you, put it in a theory, backed up by quotes, and let everyone comment on it. Though I do thank you for thinking so highly of my opinion that you would ask.

Hello Callandor

In relation to your numerous assertions that I’ve been ignoring your ‘evidence’…I went back over your posts and cut and pasted your ‘refuting’ my evidence…and found that the vast majority of times you didn’t offer any evidence at all in your reply’s to any of my major points (just opinions)…that post should appear before this post…but if it doesn’t I’ll repost it.

**So, the only example given that completely destroys your assertion that ta'veren still make the choice, is some how irrelevant?**

This isn’t what I said. But as I’ve already said precisely what I think, there is no reason for me to repost it.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-01

**Matters of central importance to the Wheel/Pattern go the way the Wheel/Pattern wants, not the way the ta'veren "decides." **

Just another thought...if this is the case, why are the Mirror Worlds needed?

Certainly they aren't needed if the pattern can 100% guarantee an action by removing free will.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-02

Cut & Pasted from Saidar Haran's BWB quote :

**These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age.**

Given the other things said about Predestination and Ta'veren, I have wondered why this quote is written this way...it says that Ta'veren can produce MAJOR VARIATIONS IN THE PATTERN OF AN AGE....

To me, this strongly suggests that the 'variation' isn't at part of the predestined plan that the Pattern weaves.

But laws of nature shouldn't be contradictory, so I suppose we would have to read it as 'major variation in the pattern of the age back towards the predestined plan of the Pattern'...

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-15

(Cut & Paste from Mat's Dicing Luck is Ta'veren theory, where I accidentally posted this)

A further thought re : The Pattern Provides & Mat's luck with cards/dice

If the Pattern Provides what is needful is all that matters, then Mat logically, should have the same luck at cards as he does at dice, shouldn’t he?

…after all…according to the argument ‘Mat needs the money’…then the objective of the pattern would not be ‘for Mat to gamble’…the Pattern’s objective would simply be ‘to provide Mat with money’…and so, logically, because the Patterns objective would be to provide Mat with money…the Pattern should provide Mat with the same amount of luck at cards as it would at dice (unless there is a specific rule about Ta’vereness that prevents this).

But it’s known fact that Mat’s luck with cards is less than his luck with dice.

JakOShadows: 2006-06-15

snake-n-foxes:

I always thought the reason for that was that dice are more random than cards. Think about it. There are a lot more variables to control when trying to win at cards. It depends on who gets which combination of cards. For example, to get a flush in five card draw, you need 5 of one suit correct. So the first card is a 1/4 chance, the next 12/51, etc. Then you would multiply the five odds you came up with to get .49%. With dice, every time you roll a dice it is 1/6. So if you need to roll the number ten twice, it would be .77%. Granted it wouldn't be much better odds, but the way the game is played there are less variables to control. And that's not including the fact that at dice it is much easier to get a winning toss, than it is in poker to get a good hand. So the random luck of ta'veren helps out more in dice; not to mention in poker you also have to know how to bluff, bet your cards correctly, etc. Overall, my point is luck helps out more when dicing than when playing cards.

haertchen: 2006-06-16

JakOShadows:

I'm pretty sure this is a good instance of "begging the question." You're deriving the behavior of ta'veren luck based on how Matt's dicing luck behaves, despite the fact that we have seen such luck only with Matt. Not very compelling logic, really.

Now, to the meat: why should the pattern be constrained by randomness? We have seen no indications that randomness is any sort of help for the other two. AFAIK, the only comment we have on this is by Rand, who says that although the pattern does weave chance, it doesn't really apply to him because he's ta'veren.

Arafellan: 2006-06-18

Doesn't the fact that Mat only has this kind of luck with dice or other items of chance, as opposed to items of structure and order, scream that it's more than just Ta'veren?

What i mean is that if it's his Ta'veren ability...it would work with anything. Ta'veren bend the pattern to their will...or the pattern bends them to its...either way...why would it ONLY bend it or let him bend it with dice and not..say...stones? Doesn't Thom remark that Mat's luck only seems to be good with dice...but when he plays him in Stones they're practically even? If it was just Ta'veren...then Thom would be placing stones in the wrong spots and Mat would still win. If Mat were playing cards...then person shuffling would shuffle them in such a way that the cards would come out in Mat's favor.

The fact that this "luck" only applies to random things makes it even more distinct. Ta'veren ability can make people fall from great heights and walk away without a scratch...surely it could change the stones or the cards...or at least change the people playing them so they make mistakes. This dicing luck of his...however...is just that..dicing luck...it applies only to items of chance like dice.

How is that Ta'veren?

JakOShadows: 2006-06-18

heartchan:

The point I was trying to make was that if Mat used his ta'veren luck, it would apply more easily to dice than cards. I was calculating the normal odds of getting those hands or rolls of the dice, and demonstrating that you have better odds with the dice than the cards. Those numbers are just basic statistics, not anything in the book. But it would explain why it is possible for him to win more at dice than cards.

Anubis: 2006-06-23

Would you say that Briggites skill with the bow was Ta'veren?

JakOShadows: 2006-06-26

Anubis:

Actually, in some instances being ta'veren could help. But the overall process of shooting a bow requires more skill than tossing a dice or something like that. Because when shooting a bow; no matter how bad the circumstances are, it is possible to compensate with enough experience. Similar to fighting with the one power or any other weapon. I think what a lot of people are missing is that the amount of skill and odds of something happening have a certain affect on how much ta'veren increases the chances. Let's face it, it doesn't take much skill to roll a pair of dice. Where as in a game of stones or card game, it relies a lot less on random luck.

Damien Sonjer: 2006-06-27

One thing that i have been suprised about is that no one mentions the fact that Mat is often compared to a fox. A fox in both Chinese and Welsh beliefs is a sign of good luck.

Karede: 2006-06-28

Ta'veren simply increases the probablity of unusual things happening, but there must be a balance. There is no balance in Mat's luck. Period. End of discussion. (But I like the build-up)

Khazhul: 2006-06-29

**Ta'veren simply increases the probablity of unusual things happening, but there must be a balance. There is no balance in Mat's luck. Period. End of discussion. (But I like the build-up)**

If Mat wins, doesn't someone else have to lose? Sounds like balance to me.

Anubis: 2006-06-29

Nice answer JakOShadows. Now, would you say Artur Hawkwing's skill in battle is a ta'veren trait? How about Rygosh Eagle'eye (sp)?

We have concrete and complete evidence that Heroes have certain skills that belong to them and them alone and are independant of Ta'veren. In every life Briggite is a skilled archer, regardless of being ta'veren. There is a reason. Ta'veren would, if anything, amplify latent abilities.

JakOShadows: 2006-07-01

Anubis:

Thank you. And I'm interested that you brought up Hawkwing, because he is an unusual example. If you think about it, his skill in battle or his ability to do the daring is not ta'veren. But I believe convincing his men to follow him is, for the most part, ta'veren. Because if you read the description of hawking in battle in the BWB, it almost has the same feel as a battle scene with Mat. His men believed in him so much that they would do anything, allowing him to be skilled in battle. And as for Rogosh, I'm not exactly familiar with his stories, but if I remember correctly he was a hunter for the horn. And in a treasure hunt, there is always a certain amount of luck required. That would also be ta'veren helping out a lot. I believe at some point ta'veren abilities will help, but you still need the skill to back it up, even if they will be enhanced some.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-07-02

Hi JackO

Sorry for the late answer, I couldn’t get into the site for about two weeks for some reason.

Yes, we know that there is a reason for Mat’s luck with cards being less than that with dice, and it has been stated in the books that it has to do with how ordered something is.

With Ta’veren luck we see a number of things :



1. It can cause anything involving luck to occur at an extreme (but theoretically not impossible) level.

2. The Ta’veren effect of luck doesn’t appear to be strictly based on order (the birds all flying into each other, wells running dry, a town burning to the ground, etc etc).

Given 1 & 2 there is no way that there should be any difference between dice and cards to Ta’veren luck.

Also as pointed out by others, the pattern could make Mat’s (cards) opponent develop a nervous twitch or habit, or cause him to fold when he should raise the stakes etc etc…so (if his dicing luck was ta’veren, then) the outcome should be the same for dice as it is for cards.

JakOShadows: 2006-07-02

snake-n-foxes:

Those two examples of what that you gave as effects of ta'veren were based of Rand's experiences. And as we know, Rand is a stronger ta'veren than Mat or Perrin. And then there is also the fact that Mat needed a lot of money quickly, so it could have been worked into the pattern.

But the main thing I was trying to prove is that it doesn't require dicing luck to win the money that Mat has. I was just offering a simpler, more obvious explanation as to a possible reason for the difference between his luckiness with dice and cards or other games.

And plus, if you think about, to make someone fold would they shouldn't etc, that is a specific effect. Whereas if Mat is just lucky, that is a general effect. That could also cause the difference in how much money he wins. If you recall the card game in tear, he actually did have a really good hand coming his way, which could be his luck kicking in. But you could see from his thoughts that it is a more complicated process to win the money when playing cards. So it can not be proven that his luck is completely lopsided. Heck, when leaving Tar Valon, you could say that all the money that fell out of his pockets when fell from the walkway was a form of balance for winning the money.

Unless you can absolutely prove that it requires another ability to do this, I will go on thinking that the simpler explanation is better.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-07-03

Hi JakO

As pointed out by haertchen, you are using a book explanation about how MDL works as a basis for explaining how TVL works…but the explanation you are using is something that has (in the books) always been exclusively used to explain MDL, and never to explain known TVL.

For how TVL works, we are given many book explanations (and examples, but not one of those explanations mention any explanation similar to the explanation we are given for how MDL works.

Further, no other Ta’veren exhibits a luck similar to MDL.

And, the attributes of MDL don't match the attributes of TVL (even Callandor eventually agreed to this)

So using the explanation for how MDL works to explain how why Mat should experience less luck with dice (due to TVL – from your point of view), can’t be done – there is no basis for it.

We are in fact given multiple quotes on Ta’veren luck works, and have a multitude of examples of how known Ta’veren luck works…and nothing in them shows order effecting TVL…rather we can obviously see that order does not effect TVL…but order is stated to effect MDL.

…………………………..

****Those two examples of what that you gave as effects of ta'veren were based of Rand's experiences. And as we know, Rand is a stronger ta'veren than Mat or Perrin.***

It doesn’t matter that Rand is the stronger Ta’veren – we ‘know’ that his Ta’veren Luck obeys the rules of Ta’veren luck…and we are also told when Rand’s luck is TVL. And, given that Rand is the strongest Ta’veren by far - this should mean that we are shown the clearest examples of how Ta’veren luck works. Examples from TVL happening around Rand show that ‘order’ does not effect the outcome of Ta’veren ‘luck’ or ‘chance’ (like it does with MDL)

So the TVL=MDL argument doesn’t appear to have any reasonable explanation for this difference Mat experiences between luck with dice & luck with cards.

…………………………….

Further, if the object of the pattern is simply to supply the Ta’veren with money, then the other abilities of Ta’vereness would come into play when Mat is playing cards (That is – the main ability of being Ta’veren - the ability to tug at threads in the pattern)…we don’t see this happening.

I doubt anyone can use the argument that ‘when the pattern needs to provide the Ta’veren with money (through gambling), and the Ta’veren’s luck isn’t as good at one form of gambling as another (that the pattern won’t use all abilities at it’s disposal to provide the Ta’veren with the needed money)’

..................

***Unless you can absolutely prove that it requires another ability to do this, I will go on thinking that the simpler explanation is better.***

Ummm...MDL as an ability doesn't require an explanation beyond 'the more ordered something is the less it effects it'...which is book quote proven...no one can argue that's not how it works. Your explanation required more complication - and is debatable...so an 'ability' is the simpler explanation here.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-07-03

Hi again JakO

Re : which offers the simpler explanation.

These are the issues I see so far, and Mat having an ability does offer a simpler explanation for them :

Maidens example :

- Others throwing 6’s repeatedly Vs only Mat ever throwing winners (in a session)

No explanation needed if Mat has an ability - but TVL=MDL is not so easy to explain

-TVL moved onto something else VS Mat’s Dicing Luck always focused on Dice

No explanation needed if Mat has an ability - but TVL=MDL is not so easy to explain

-Everyone Dicing throwing 6’s Vs No one but Mat always winning in a session

No explanation needed if Mat has an ability - but TVL=MDL is not so easy to explain

……….

Book quote proven : Ta’veren luck is known to behave in ‘odd, random ways’ Vs MDL behaving in a known (book quote explained) way (effecting things of pure chance, lessening as more order occurs). Easily explainable by an ability, but requires debatable explanation if you argue that it’s Ta’veren luck.

Also as above paragraph : TVL behaving in ‘odd, random ways’ means TVL doesn’t stay focused on any one ‘type’ of luck, but jumps all over the place ‘in odd, random ways’ (just like the Maidens all throwing 6’s)…MDL doesn’t do this. No explanation is needed if Mat has an ability, but a great deal of debatable explanation is needed if you wish to argue that TVL=MDL

Book quote proven : Ta’veren luck is balanced (both good & bad) Vs Mat’s only good dicing luck (in any given session). An ability doesn’t require further explanation, but trying to make TVL into MDL in this instance requires a highly debatable explanation, that in the end has no evidence to back it up (the debatable explanation) and so can only ever be opinion (on behalf of those that support the TVL=MDL stance)

Then there is why Mat experiences a difference in luck between dice and cards – if Mat has an ability then this is already explained in the books – but trying to explain TVL as MDL takes a good deal of explaning, and will always be highly debatable.

The prophecy ‘luck his soul’ no explanation required by an ability. Definitely explanation required if trying to say TVL=MDL, and debatable to boot.

RJ saying ‘in a way he has the DO’s own luck’ – easily explained by saying he has an ability…rather difficult to explain how TVL is ‘in a way the DO’s own luck’

Thom calling Mat ‘the luckiest man in the world’ when he knows that Rand is the stronger Ta’veren, and he has been around both – easy to explain if Mat has an ability, much more difficult to explain if you argue that TVL = MDL

RJ’s constant highlighting of Mat’s luck more than any other character – easy to explain by Mat having an ability, much more difficult to explain TVL as MDL when Rand should have much much more luck (being the stronger Ta’veren by far).

Sampson: 2006-07-03

I do not know if I agree with all your theory. But I think the one argument that needs to be pointed out is this.

Rand – Born as the Dragon Reborn.

Perrin – Born with the ability to be a Wolf brother

Mat – Born with what? Luck/Gambler

I just feel that Mat had to be born with some kind of additional ability. I know that the ‘Finns hooked him up with his Battle knowledge. So that can not count.

We all agree that the WOT universe is all about balance. I would think all (3) Taveren would have an ability that they were born with.

Mat’s natural ability is his “Gambling” sense. I do not know about you, but I personally know a couple of people who “win” when they gamble. It really sorta pisses me off, but you can not hate the player, just hate the game.

Mat being Taveren enhances his natural “luck”. He calls it luck, because he doesn’t want to believe that he doesn’t have control of his life, which is understandable.

But to acknowledge everybody’s point – being taveren would be the “cause” of why Mat needs “luck” to survive and accomplish whatever task the pattern needed. The pattern has placed Mat into situations where he needed either “taveren luck” or “natural luck” or even both to get out of the situation on a positive manner.

So I think Mat is naturally lucky, but the pattern adds luck when Mat has a need.

JakOShadows: 2006-07-03

snake-n-foxes:

Allright, you do have a point there. I don't completely agree, but I can't really refute your points very well. I guess my main issue is why would this talent be created? Think about all the abilities we know about; foretelling, seeing ta'veren, OP related abilities(finding metal, etc), dreamwalker abilities. They all serve some kind of purpose. And there have been documented occurrences of them before this. Now look at MDL; there has been no previous documentation, the only purpose it serves is to randomnly win stuff, and by itself is mostly pointless considering you have to apply it to something to be useful. Look at Mat; he is ta'veren, which guides most of his steps; then he gets MDL which allows him to survive the crazy situations the pattern puts him in. The combination is what helps him more. So my question is why would the creator create an ability like this when TVL would accomplish the same thing?

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-07-05

Hi JakO

I’m not sure that all talents have a purpose…just look at one of your examples - the ability to see Ta’veren – a more pointless talent I can’t imagine.

And what about the general run of the mill wolfbrother? Doesn’t appear to help any of the them (bar Perrin), does it? Rather it appears to have ruined some peoples lives?

And perhaps Min's ability - about the only useful thing I can think it ever achieved is when she told Rand about Alivia helping him to die. Even Min doesn’t think her viewings are of much use.

At a guess, talents are probably like a lot of other things in Randland – they are neither good nor bad – they just are.

Davian93: 2006-07-05

As the Champion of the "Mat's Luck is Ta'veren, nothing more" I feel obliged to respond to this theory.

Bottom line: Mat's luck is necessary for him to survive and help Rand. He NEEDS to leave Tar Valon and his luck gives him the money to do so. He needs to be lucky in battle and his Luck helps the Band survive and win every engagement. Rand can Channel, Perrin is a wolfbrother and dreamwalker, and Mat is lucky. His luck is part of balancing the Pattern and helping the Light have victory in the Last Battle.

****The argument that Mat needed the money to pay for the armies is dubious at best, and flat out wrong at worst.****

As I stated above he needs the money and the reputation as being lucky to build an Army and sustain it. His reputation keeps the Band alive far more than his winnings. Men join the Band based off his reputation for never losing.

****Mat remembers being lucky before he became Ta’veren****

Mat remembers winning a little more than losing but then he lost fairly often as well. He was consistently getting caught with his pranks and he remembers specifically losing a Silver crown to a merchant' guard. He became Ta'veren just before leaving the Two Rivers so all his luck since then is explained by the Ta'veren affect.

****Maidens all throwing 6’s around Rand vs Mat only throwing winners around Mat****

Rand's Ta'veren affect is far more profound than Mats to begin with. Rand is the stronger Ta'veren and again Rand doesnt need to be lucky to provide balance and help the Light...he's got that pesky thing called being the Dragon Reborn to help that.

****Rands ‘luck effect’ never stays focused vs Mat’s permanently focused dicing luck****

Mat doesn't always win...he just always wins when he absolutely has to. Again his luck needs to stay consistant to maintain his reputation which is critical to helping the Light and thus providing balance against the Shadow.

****Robert Jordan saying in an interview. “When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true.” ****

First of all, interview quotes are sketchy at best as evidence as they are not definite. Secondly, that quote can be interpreted in many different ways.

Sampson: 2006-07-05

JaKOShadows, I see your point. I do not know how to present my argument in a written logical manner. But I will try.

Being a gambler and taking high risk / high reward type of actions require a certain mentality. Mat is the risk taker out of the BIG 3. His mentality and the way he interacts with other characters (the Band & others) are based on how he is successful and unsuccessful. He always feels that he can win in any given situation. That is huge when it comes to confidence and having people follow you. Basically he is the one who hasn’t grown up (in some ways), he is wild and charming and willing to take the risks and pay for the failures. That is why he just might be the most liked character in the series. Everybody can relate to him because he does fall on his face once in a while.

Rand has the weight of the future on his shoulders. He has to think and weight his decisions. Plus there is everybody around him always second guessing or telling him what to do.

Perrin is the slow methodical character. Always thinking before he jumps. Always conscious of how his actions may effect others.

So Mat is the one who has to be unpredictable. It’s his nature – “I do not know what is going to happen, but it’s time to toss the dice”. That takes a certain type of mental make-up.

The reason why he needs to have his own luck is because he had to start believing he was lucky. Now that he is taveren it has enhanced his luck. Mat would automatically find himself in allot of situations (pranks etc..) where he would need to be lucky get out of. But being taveren, the odds and likelihood of being in one of those situations has been magnified – hence he needs his luck to be magnified to escape.

JakOShadows: 2006-07-05

snake-n-foxes:

Yes, the way you looked at those instances they aren't that important. But lets look at the smaller details. Wolfbrothers can be seen as a tie to nature, for an age when the one power can't be used. And Min's viewings, they can significantly help a person accomplish a task if they know what it means. Seeing ta'veren, that could be the patterns way of presenting physical proof of its helpers, a kind of heads up for the world. Now if MDL did exist, I can't think of anything it would help that ta'veren doesn't already do. He has better odds of surviving, he is guided to where he needs to go to help a situation, everything that he needs is proved, etc. All of those abilities, can be created by being ta'veren. So why do you think that it is essential that Mat has to have MDL, rather than the standard MDL?

Sampson:

You have a good point there, but I don't quite understand what you meant. Do you mean that he needed to have MDL for it to happen that way or were you arguing that it is an explanation for his TVL? But yes, I do agree that he did need to have that certain attitude so that he could fulfill his role.

Sampson: 2006-07-06

JakOShadows

You have a good point there, but I don't quite understand what you meant. Do you mean that he needed to have MDL for it to happen that way or were you arguing that it is an explanation for his TVL? But yes, I do agree that he did need to have that certain attitude so that he could fulfill his role.

I am saying that Mat is lucky, period. He had to have luck as an inherent ability to enable the pattern to enhance that ability. He also had to be able to KNOW he was lucky. So when it was in full bloom (i.e. hearing the dice in his head) he wouldn’t go crazy and start to learn how to take advantage of it. I hope I am making sense…. If Mat was not prepared mentally to embrace or at the very least accept the abilities he has, what good would making him a taveren really be?

The pattern needed something to work with correct? Perrin was born with the ability to speak with wolves. But it took the pattern to focus on him and guide him into a situation where the ability could be stimulated and allow to manifest itself.

Rand is in the same boat, as the journey through the portal stones show. The pattern had to focus on him and guide him into and through situation(s) to prepare him for his ultimate task.

Basically what I am saying is that all 3 were born with inherent abilities. Yes they were born with these abilities because the patter would focus on them, but the pattern still needs something to work with.

The pattern doesn’t just create anything out of thin air. The pattern places resources into situations where they can further promote what the pattern needs to happen, like a project or a row of domino’s, you need something to initiate an action. Once the action has begun, then if you placed all the pieces where they belong correctly, they just fall into place, and spawn additional actions and results.

Anubis: 2006-07-06

Alright, let me be clear. Mat's luck is enhanced by his being Ta'veren. His skill as a gambler, and yes, I do say skill, there is skill involved. Is natuarl, and will not go away when he is no longer Ta'veren. The Finns called him Gambler, Trickster, etc. Mat likes to gamble. Even if he wasn't as lucky as he is, he would still be a lucky risk taker, just not AS lucky.

Briggite will always be a skilled archer. Just not AS skilled, Ta'veren will help when it is needed.

Anubis: 2006-07-06

" And as for Rogosh, I'm not exactly familiar with his stories, but if I remember correctly he was a hunter for the horn. "

I dont believe he was a hunter for the horn, but then again he could have been. IIRC the horn wasnt lost last time he was born and isnt tied to him in a significant way. I believe he was famous for his fatherly wisdom. He was described as being older, kind of soft, but strong with piercing eyes and loads of the wisdom. Wisdom seems to be his inherant trait.

JakOShadows: 2006-07-07

Anubis:

***Alright, let me be clear. Mat's luck is enhanced by his being Ta'veren. His skill as a gambler, and yes, I do say skill, there is skill involved. Is natuarl, and will not go away when he is no longer Ta'veren. The Finns called him Gambler, Trickster, etc. Mat likes to gamble. Even if he wasn't as lucky as he is, he would still be a lucky risk taker, just not AS lucky.***

Yes, but the point I was trying to make is that it doesn't require another ability for this to work. The pattern could have just known he needed to be lucky and have be part of his ta'veren ability. Every other skill we have seen requires a different focus than being ta'veren will provide, but MDL is very similar to the luck experienced with TVL. So my question still stants as to why another ability is required. Yes, both are reasonable explanations; but considering TVL has been mentioned thoroughly in the books and MDL is not so much as remotely mentioned, I think a good reason why he needed that specific ability is required to prove your theory.

Aeolus: 2006-07-07

**What is important to the Pattern is never going to be changed; it will happen no matter what.**

Had abandoned this thread as it was all getting a little circular, but there's a quote that Callandor has missed:

The Shadow Rising, Seeds of Shadow

"Siuan's tiredness seemed to slide from her shoulders. She straightened and stood looking down at Min. "You had best hope we can. Did you think we could just let him run about loose? Do you think we could trust to the Pattern, to his destiny, to keep him alive, like some story? This isn't a story, he ISN'T SOME INVINCIBLE HERO, and if his thread is snipped out of the Pattern, the Wheel of Time WON'T NOTICE HIS GOING AND THE CREATOR WILL PRODUCE NO MIRACLES TO SAVE US. If Moiraine cannot reef his sails, he very well may get himself killed, and where are we then? Where is the world? The Dark One's prison is failing. He will touch the world again; it is only a matter of time. If Rand is not there to face him in the Last Battle, if the headstrong young fool gets himself killed first, the world is doomed. The War of Power all over again, with no Lews Therin and his Hudnred Companions. Then fire and shadow, forever.""

Rand is not invincible, full stop. Rand can die, full stop. The Pattern won't jump in to "save him", full stop. The Pattern is pushing Rand more strongly than anyone else to ensure that his choices and those of people around him conspire to put him in the right place at the Last Battle. But he CAN die; there IS jeopardy and the Pattern has not preordained that the Dark One can never win - otherwise, as I've said, there is no point to the story whatsoever. The Dark One and his followers believe there is a chance to upset the Wheel of Time and ("break it") and remake the Pattern. For this to be possible, it has to be possible that Rand can be killed and not fulfil his destiny, as this quote proves.