lver is Mat Cauthon Reborn
by themanichaean: 2006-10-27 | 2.87 out of 10 (23 votes)
Proof:
1. Writing style and tone: Stylistically, Jordan writes Olver as a young version of Mat.
2. Jordan’s DragonCon 2005 RAFO about meeting yourself: (
link )
Question by Aan’ allein: A couple of related questions on souls. Can they be split? Is it true you can meet yourself in the worlds of If, is that a copy of the soul, a reflection, or the same soul living in different worlds.
Jordan: I think I will have to give you a RAFO on this, except for the part, souls cannot be split, but the other, I think I will have to give you a RAFO because I may be doing something with that.
3. Mat is the only Ta’veren to die. He’s died twice, in fact—once to Forsaken lighting (undone by Rand’s Balefire) and once by Finn hanging. At the instant of Mat’s death, the Pattern replaced its lost Ta’veren by transforming Olver.
4. Moiraine draws a distinction between “Mat†and “young Mat†in her farewell letter to Thom. “Young Mat†actually refers to Olver. (bolding is my own)
"My dearest Thom, There are many words I would like to write to you, words from my heart, but I have put this off because I knew that I must, and now there is little time. There are many things I cannot tell you lest I bring disaster, but what I can, I will. Heed carefully what I say. In a short while I will go down to the docks, and there I will confront Lanfear. How can I know that? That secret belongs to others. Suffice it that I know, and let that foreknowledge stand as proof for the rest of what I say.
When you receive this, you will be told that I am dead. All will believe that. I am not dead, and it may be that I shall live to my appointed years. It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to, and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives. Should you decide to make the attempt anyway, young Mat knows the way to find me, yet you must not show him this letter until he asks about it. That is of the utmost importance. Events must play out in certain ways, whatever the costs.
If you see Lan again, tell him that all of this is for the best. His destiny follows a different path from mine. I wish him all happiness with Nynaeve.
A final point. Remember what you know about the game of Snakes and Foxes. Remember, and heed.
It is time, and I must do what must be done.
May the Light illumine you and give you joy, my dearest Thom, whether or not we ever see one another again. Moiraine
5. Mat is sure that Snakes and Foxes can be won fairly, and we’ve read many paradoxical predictions about the game and Finnland. A second Mat who’s never officially visited Finnland before can make it work—more questions and more wishes.
6. Olver satisfies the “laughing face†part of Min’s viewing for Mat.
WEAKNESSES
1. “Didn’t Mat die twice? If this theory is true, then why aren’t there two replacements for Mat?â€
Maybe one of Mat’s deaths doesn’t count. Maybe the Balefire-resurrection glitched out the Pattern and transformed Olver. I don’t have definites here, this is still a theory.
2. “Your theory is based on the Scooby gang saving Moiraine from the Finns!â€
True, but that’s a whole other can of worms.
3. “Olver is just learning bad habits from Mat, he’s not a reincarnation.â€
Very possible, and I can’t directly refute this. I still stand behind my theory above.
(Thanks to Madoc Comardin’s 11-09-05 theory about decoding Moiraine’s letter to Thom)
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1
Tamyrlin: 2007-02-24
First of all, a good first theory. Welcome to Theoryland, I hope you stick around. I like theories that grab a little things Jordan does, like turning a phrase such as "young mat" and Olver's fascination with the game and Mat, and making it a bit more mystical. However, is your idea that Olver somehow is the reflection of Mat as a child from another world? Or that he was actually born in this world, and has Mat's soul? I like the first idea, but I have long pushed the ideas of transmigrations, souls, and rebirth, and nothing I have found suggests that there can be one soul that is somehow two souls. As in, while Jordan has left soul splitting in the Reflective Worlds, this would be reflective "rebirth". When you have time, I would love to see a deeper explanation for how you imagined this would have come about. I know you mentioned some balefire-glitch, but a more indepth analysis of how it came about would make the theory much more compelling.
2
JakOShadows: 2007-02-24
I like unique theories like this but there is one problem I have with the evidence of the letter. If you look at the sentence where young Mat is used, she goes on say to not show him the letter until "he" asks. And if she is using proper english, then she would have to be refering to Mat there. Unless Thom just misinterpreted the letter I guess, but he is pretty smart and I think he would have know if it was code for something else. Everything else seems unlikely, but it can't be disproved either. Just maybe flesh it out a bit more and it would be even better.
3
twomoons: 2007-02-24
Good theory. I like it but I always thought that Olver was Gaidal Cain reborn because just before Birgita was ripped out she couldn't find Gaidal in the world of dreams. I have no proof, though. Olver could easily be Matt with his multipul deaths.
4
Davian93: 2007-02-24
Interesting concept. However I would contribute almost all of Olver's behavior to his environment and exposure to Mat who is basically his father figure at this point. The "young Mat" reference is definitely just Mat not Olver if you read it correctly from context. And Mat asked about the letter not Olver so it still wouldn't fit.
However on the whole, it was well thought out even if I don't agree with it.
5
fish06: 2007-02-25
At first when I read this title I thought the threory would be ridiculous but I was mistaken. It was really well thought out. However, the line "young Mat knows the way to find me, yet you must not show him this letter until he asks about it." links young Mat with the actually Mat. And if it doesn't wouldn't they all be screwed because thom would have shown the letter to the wrong person.
6
Terez1: 2007-02-25
â€1. Writing style and tone: Stylistically, Jordan writes Olver as a young version of Mat.â€
I know what you’re getting at, but truly, Olver is just a kid that idolizes Mat. I know you account for the possibility later on in your theory, but this is not the only grasping of the proverbial straw present in your logic.
â€2. Jordan’s DragonCon 2005 RAFO about meeting yourself:
Question by Aan’ allein: A couple of related questions on souls. Can they be split? Is it true you can meet yourself in the worlds of If, is that a copy of the soul, a reflection, or the same soul living in different worlds.
Jordan: I think I will have to give you a RAFO on this, except for the part, souls cannot be split, but the other, I think I will have to give you a RAFO because I may be doing something with that.â€
I’m not sure why you think this quote is helping your theory. Mirror Worlds are reflections. This much should be obvious, despite the fact that RJ refused to confirm it. The Pattern is like a probability machine, and the Mirror Worlds are a way of quantifying the possibilities that go into the Wheel’s efforts to shape the Pattern into what it must be. The world that Rand and Co. live in is the real world. The quality of the reflection is dependant on its likelihood - it’s similarity to the course that was chosen for the real world. The fact that RJ did confirm that souls are not split is a direct hole in the bucket of your theory.
â€3. Mat is the only Ta’veren to die. He’s died twice, in fact—once to Forsaken lighting (undone by Rand’s Balefire) and once by Finn hanging. At the instant of Mat’s death, the Pattern replaced its lost Ta’veren by transforming Olver.â€
Actually, Mat has only died once. The passage in The Shadow Rising makes it clear that Mat was still alive when Rand performed CPR on him, though Rand originally thought he was dead. You can’t bring a dead person back with CPR, anyway. Big difference between resuscitation and resurrection. The fulfillment of the prophecy happened in Caemlyn, when he was killed…but wait…he wasn’t killed, as far as the Pattern is concerned. Everything Rahvin did back to the balefire point didn’t really happen. We know it happened - Rand saw it happen - but it didn’t happen. So, the Pattern has no need to replace a lost ta’veren, not that there would be any need for such a thing in the first place.
â€4. Moiraine draws a distinction between “Mat†and “young Mat†in her farewell letter to Thom. “Young Mat†actually refers to Olver.â€
I think that others have already sufficiently pointed out the flaws in this particular reasoning.
â€5. Mat is sure that Snakes and Foxes can be won fairly, and we’ve read many paradoxical predictions about the game and Finnland. A second Mat who’s never officially visited Finnland before can make it work—more questions and more wishes.â€
I’m not sure where you get the idea that Mat believes that the game can be won fairly, unless you’re talking about Olver. If that’s the case, it would certainly be a good idea to call Olver “Olver†if for no other reason than to avoid confusion. Olver believes it can be won fairly because he is a naïve child. Everyone knows that the only way you can win the game is to cheat, which is what the opening line is all about - that, along with the questions that the ‘Finns ask when you enter the doorway ter’angreal, shows us what Mat and Co. will need to get Moiraine out of ‘Finnland. Also, you don’t get questions and wishes, presumably, when you go through the Tower of Ghenjei, which is obviously what they plan on doing. The questions and wishes are part of the “ancient treaty†that accompanied the two doorway ter’angreal, and there is not really anything to indicate that you get questions and/or wishes when you go directly through the Tower.
â€6. Olver satisfies the “laughing face†part of Min’s viewing for Mat.â€
Possibly. Even if Olver is the laughing face, how does that help your theory?
Aside from the fact that none of your “proof†is even really “evidenceâ€, much less proof - if Mat had been replaced at his death by his reflection from a Mirror World, he would have been replaced by the Mat from the Mirror World. No need to implant the soul into Olver’s body. But, as I already pointed out, RJ confirmed that the soul is not split. In other words, there is no soul lurking in a Mirror World waiting to take over. The “you†that you might meet in a Mirror World would only be a reflection of yourself, and a life you might have lived. It’s not real.
Overall, though, I guess you didn’t do too bad. At least you didn’t do “Olver is Gaidal Cainâ€. :p If you had done that one, Tam would have sent you a rejection letter, surely. I think he probably sends out a couple of “Olver is Gaidal Cain†rejection letters a month.
7
Myrelle Sedai: 2007-02-25
I don't agree with this theory for one main reason: Olver is like, 10 or 11, and Mat died and was brought back by balefire only a few months ago, unless you're saying that Olver is Mat's reflection from a mirror world?
8
Melchoir: 2007-02-25
A couple of thoughts. I can't see Olver having Mat's soul. At most, if Mat died and the pattern still needed him, I suppose his "ta'veren-ness" could have settled on Olver as a replacement. However, had this happened then Mat should have lost it.
Another thought concerning snakes and foxes. It is supposedly impossible to beat snakes and foxes without cheating. Maybe instead it is just extremely unlikely. For instance, the player would have to roll all sixes 14 times in a row while the snakes would have to roll all ones 14 times in a roll. Most people would just say that's impossible, but with Mat around, maybe not.
9
maharbry: 2007-03-06
I like this theory. I'm not sure if I buy it yet but it seems plausible. When Mat died the first time the pattern could have chosen Olver as his replacement because at the time Mat's thread would have ended. When Mat came back I don't think he would have lost his ta'vereness because he i still Mat and his thread would be the same, just continued. As for why there aren't 2 recreations of Mat to account for his two deaths, I think that if the pattern had already chosen Olver another Mat wouldnt have been necessary since Olver was already there. I also think that Mat and Olver's meeting by pure chance was the pattern's way of trying to reunite the two incarnations of him. Basically the pattern realized that it had been tricked and did the best it could within the laws of the Creator to repair it's "mistake."
That being said, I haven't read the whole series in about two years but I am on tFoH on a reread so the Olver part is coming again for me relatively soon. As I am a bit rusty on Olver I may be completely wrong, but from what I remember it seems like my explanation is plausible at least.
10
Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-07
maharbry:
"When Mat died the first time the pattern could have chosen Olver as his replacement because at the time Mat's thread would have ended. As for why there aren't 2 recreations of Mat to account for his two deaths, I think that if the pattern had already chosen Olver another Mat wouldnt have been necessary since Olver was already there."
FYI, Terez already pointed out earlier in this thread that Mat was not killed the first time (i.e., the hanging in Rhuidean). Mat was still alive, if barely, when Rand pulled him down from Avendesora:
-----
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated
Letting sword and Power go, he ripped the rope away from Mat's neck and pressed an ear to his friend's chest. Nothing. Desperately, he tore open Mat's coat and shirt, breaking the leather cord that held a silver medallion on Mat's chest. He tossed the medallion aside, listened again. Nothing. No heartbeat. Dead. No! He'd be all right if I hadn't let him follow me here. I can't let him be dead!
As hard as he could he pounded his fist against Mat's chest, listened. Nothing. Again he hammered, listened. Yes. There. A faint heartbeat. It was. So faint, so slow. And slowing. But Mat was still alive despite the heavy purple welt around his neck. He might yet be kept alive.
-----
"I also think that Mat and Olver's meeting by pure chance was the pattern's way of trying to reunite the two incarnations of him."
Souls can't be split, so how could Olver and Mat be rejoined?
11
Myrelle Sedai: 2007-03-11
*When Mat died the first time the pattern could have chosen Olver as his replacement because at the time Mat's thread would have ended.*
this would make only make sense if Olver was a newborn baby instead of 11.
12
Ozymandias: 2007-03-15
I gotta agree with everyone else on this one. Very little of your argument makes sense. The whole "young Mat" thing is very easily explained. Mat IS young. Moiraine is somewhere in the range of 50 years old, an Thom probably only a few years younger (since I think we know Morgase is around 40ish). Haven't you ever heard two older people refer to a younger one as a "young man"? It does happen. From Moiraine's perspective, Mat IS a young man.
Everything else has been covered before me. The age discrepancy, two souls being split... none of that is impossible. Plus, the "laughing face" bit is just pure conjecture, with absolutely zero fact. I'm not even sure how often Olver laughs! All we ever hear about is how he has this huge mouth, so when he smiles his face splits in half.
Welcome, though
13
Snackycake: 2007-04-03
I also thought this theory would be absolutely ridiculous after the first sentence or two but I pressed on and read the whole thing. I think it is an interesting and well thought out theory. One thing I'd like to throw out there is about Mat dying twice.
Now My memory is a little hazy considering it's been about 8 months since I re-read through the WOT series. I don't quite remember but I believe Mat's death by the Finns was his FIRST death and the lightning from Rhavin was his SECOND death. Anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
If Olver is Mat's "replacement" after he died (to the Finns) that is all well and good. Mat experience clinical death when he was hanged perhaps causing the pattern to spin out a replacement. Would this death not have broken his link to the horn of Valere as well?
When Mat died to Rhavin's lightning, the death was "undone" by Rand's uber big blast of balefire. This would mean that this death (to Rhavin's Lightning)never occurred since balefire reverts certain things back to before events happened. Therefore, there would be no second "replacement" for Mat since this death never occurred.
Lets also keep in mind that in the EOTW Chapter 24 Flight Down the Arinelle, while on Bayle Domon's Ship The Spray, Rand and Mat see a tower of metal in the distance.
[i]Another time, when the eastward shore had become flat grassland again, broken only occasionally by thickets, the sun glinted off something in the distance. "What can that be?" Rand wondered aloud. "It looks like metal."
Captain Domon was walking by, and he paused, squinting toward the glint. "It do be metal," he said. His words still ran together, but Rand had come to understand without having to puzzle it out. "A tower of metal. I have seen it up close, and I know. River traders use it as a marker. We be ten days from Whitebridge at the rate we go."
"A metal tower?" Rand said, and Mat sitting cross-legged with his back against a barrel, roused from his brooding to listen.
The captain nodded. "Aye. Shining steel by the look and feel of it, but no a spot of rust. Two hundred feet high, it be, as big around as a house, with no mark on it and never an opening to be found."
"I'll be there is a treasure inside," Mat said. He stood up and stared toward the far tower as the river carried the Spray beyond it. "A thing like that must have been made to protect something valuable."[/i]
Mat knows the way to the tower of Ghenjei in the deep recesses of his mind.
14
Marie Curie 7: 2007-04-05
Snackycake:
"Now My memory is a little hazy considering it's been about 8 months since I re-read through the WOT series. I don't quite remember but I believe Mat's death by the Finns was his FIRST death and the lightning from Rhavin was his SECOND death. Anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong."
Mat did not die when he was hung by the Finns in Rhuidean. If you read a little further up in this thread, you will find a quote from The Shadow Rising that confirms that Mat was still alive when Rand pulled him down from Avendesora.
It was the death by lightning from Rahvin that was the whole dying and living again thing. RJ confirmed this. From the wotmania FAQ:
------
When did Mat Die and Live again? He (RJ) said something that implied that the Die and Live again prophecy fulfillment was the lightning incident in The Fires of Heaven and not the hanging incident in The Shadow Rising.
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"If Olver is Mat's "replacement" after he died (to the Finns) that is all well and good. Mat experience clinical death when he was hanged perhaps causing the pattern to spin out a replacement. Would this death not have broken his link to the horn of Valere as well?"
Since Mat didn't die as a result of his hanging by the Finns, there was no reason for a replacement and no broken link to the Horn.
"Lets also keep in mind that in the EOTW Chapter 24 Flight Down the Arinelle, while on Bayle Domon's Ship The Spray, Rand and Mat see a tower of metal in the distance.
Mat knows the way to the tower of Ghenjei in the deep recesses of his mind."
Yes, we know that Mat knows the way to the Tower of Ghenjei, and Thom, Olver, and Noal know about Mat, too. Moiraine's letter to Thom told them that Mat knows:
------
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota
Thom shook his head. "She says you know, Mat. 'Mat knows the way to find me.' I doubt very much she'd have written that on a whim."
"Well, I can't help what she says, now can I? I never heard of any Tower of Ghenjei until tonight."
"A pity," Noal sighed. "I'd like to have seen it, something Jain bloody Farstrider never did. You might as well give over," he added when Thom opened his mouth. "He wouldn't forget seeing it, and even if he never heard the name, he'd have to think of it when he heard of a strange tower that lets people into other lands. The thing gleams like burnished steel. I'm told, two hundred feet high and forty thick, and there's not an opening to be found in it. Who could forget seeing that?"
Mat went very still. His black scarf felt too tight against his hanging scar. The scar itself suddenly felt fresh and hot. It was hard for him to draw breath.
"If there's no opening, how do we get in?" Thom wanted to know.
Noal shrugged, but Olver spoke up once more. "Birgitte says you make the sign on the side of it anywhere with a bronze knife." He made the sign that started the game. "She says it has to be a bronze knife. Make the sign, and a door opens."
"What else did she tell you about --" Thom began, then cut off with a frown. "What ails you. Mat? You look about to sick up."
What ailed him was his memory, and not the other men's memories for once. Those had been stuffed into him to fill holes in his own memories, which they did and more, or so it seemed. He certainly remembered many more days than he had lived. But whole stretches of his own life were lost to him, and others were like moth-riddled blankets or shadowy and dim. He had only spotty memories of fleeing Shadar Logoth, and very vague recollections of escaping on Domon's rivership, but one thing seen on that voyage stood out. A tower shining like burnished steel. Sick up? His stomach wanted to empty itself.
"I think I know where that tower is, Thom. Rather, Domon knows. But I can't go with you. The Eelfinn will know I'm coming, maybe the Aelfinn, too. Burn me, they might already know about this letter, because I read it. They might know every word we've said. You can't trust them. They'll take advantage if they can, and if they know you're coming, they'll be planning to do just that. They'll skin you and make harnesses for themselves from your hide." His memories of them were all his own, but they were more than enough to support the judgment.
------
So, we see that Mat knows where the Tower of Ghenjei is (or at least he is aware that Bayle knows), and not in the deep recesses of his mind. That is one of the memories of his own life that he still recalls.
15
Villainelle: 2007-07-08
You really aren't providing anything solid that suggests Olver IS Mat reborn, just showing vague possibilities that he COULD be. And you haven't bothered to refute the dominant theory, that Olver is Gaidal Cain:
a) Olver is repeatedly described as ugly. He is one of the few male characters in the books who is described this way. (The only other male described as ugly that I can think of offhand was Rand's servant disguise while sneaking to see Elayne in I believe ACoS).
b) Same with Gaidal Cain. Much is made of the fact that he is considered ugly, and that Birgitte's taste in men favors the "ugly."
c) RJ is more sparing with his physical descriptions of male characters. Aside from Shienaran topknots and the like, when male characters are shown to be physically similar, it is usually for a plot-related reason (e.g. Lan and Isam, Padan Fain's various personas, assorted Darkfriends, etc.).
d) Before being ripped out, Birgitte says that Gaidal has disappeared from TAR and she thinks he has been reborn.
e) Olver is introduced to the story shortly after this.
f) RJ likely realized that by ripping Birgitte out of TAR instead of allowing her to be reborn normally, there were implications for her eternal romance with Gaidal. Gaidal had to be reincarnated shortly before or after so that they could meet each other and resume their romance. (Birgitte and Gaidal are always lovers in their various incarnations.)
Refute the Olver/Gaidal connection and then we can talk.
16
terez: 2007-07-09
“Refute the Olver/Gaidal connection and then we can talk.â€
Okay. :)
RJ said that Olver is not Gaidal Cain. Is that good enough?
________________________________
Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q: He's too old.
RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
Q: Is the difference in time constant?
RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.
Q: It's different for different people, then?
RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in T'A'R. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.
17
BigBlade: 2007-07-30
Oliver cannot be Mat or Cain reborn. RJ has said that Oliver is not cain reborn and Oliver is too old to be Mat reborn. Mat did die and was brought back to life by Rand using balefire but even if oliver was born then, he is still too old to be Mat reborn.
18
Sidhe: 2007-09-30
Aside from the matters of time mentioned by other people (Olver should be a baby if he was Mat reborn, etc), there's something else that probably should be taken into account. Yes, WoT is Fantasy, and yes, a lot of things happen and exist that don't happen and exist in our world (yet ;) ), but RJ has woven in a lot of realistic and logical aspects as well. So, being logical...:
Two people being the same person can't exist in the same time and place. I can't place quotes, unfortunately, because I have a new computer and didn't save all my old links, but I've read a fair bit on time travel theories, and tho that's hypothetical, those theories have been well thought thru and researched as far as possible. They agree on one point: you can't meet yourself at any point in time, may that be past or future, because that would screw up the reality as it was or will be, and will create a time vacuum (or hole) and a lot of chaos. Time continuity.
Even though there are a lot of unusual, inexplicable, and seemingly impossible things in the books, RJ has to my knowledge not tampered with things like this. The only 'time travel' is in TAR, with the different sliding of time (tho always forward, never back, which is also a rl time travel theory aspect).
That's in short, it's not explained well, but I hope it adds something to this discussion.
19
norseceltic: 2007-11-05
I don't believe Olver is Mat reborn but Gaidal Cain reborn. Cain is always mentioned as being ugly as is Olver. Also, Birgitte (after being pulled out of Tel'aran'rhiod) tells Nynaeve and Elayne that she could no longer find Cain and that time passes different in Tel'aran'rhiod and that Cain could be a baby or a small boy. This is also when Olver hooks up with Mat.
20
Balinor: 2007-11-16
Welcome to Theoryland. I'm sorry but your theory is bogus. Just like the "Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn" theory. I'm sorry for those folks who still buy into that theory, but it's been refuted so many times, even by RJ himself (!), that I'm not going to go into here. Callandor did a much better job than I could at explaining it. But it comes down to this. olver cannot be Gaidal Cain reborn, because he is simply too old. Period. When the soul of a hero is spun out of TAR, and back into the real world, it is literally reborn into a newborn baby. As has been pointed out above, Olver is like 9-10 years old. Far too old for him to have been either Mat or GC reborn. Even given that time flows differently in TAR, it's not THAT much different.
And if Olver was Mat's soul reborn, then who's soul does Mat have. As RJ has stated before, 2 people can't share 1 soul. So unless the DO brought back Mat's body with a new soul (and somehow Mat doesn't realize this) he still has his own soul, and Olver has his own soul. That doesn't mean that Olver is not ANOTHER of the Heroes reborn, just that he is neither Gaidal Cain or Mat Cauthon reborn. Not a bad first theory, but keep trying.
21
Leopoled: 2007-11-18
While this is a very interesting and well thought out theory, I'm not sure that I am comfortable with this idea of replacement ta'veren. I just don't believe that ta'veven are quite so interchangable, it just can't be that simple. If it were it rather would take the specialness away from Mat now wouldn't it? And away from Rand and Perrin for that matter. If any ta'veren could be replaced by any other then why worry about keeping Rand alive? If Rand were to die could the pattern not simply spin out another equally powerfull ta'veren to replace him, or better yet just have Mat or Perrin fill in for him? No it certainly could not because Rand is not special because he is ta'veren but rather he is ta'veren because he is special, the prophacies do not say that a ta'veren must defeat the DO but rather that the reincarnated soul of LTT aka The Dragon Reborn must defeat him. Thus Rand was brought into the world to fulfill a certain purpose; one that he and only he can fulfill, namely to defeat the DO. It is not necessary for Rand to be ta'veren in order to fulfill this purpose, however, it certainly will help him to achieve this end and thus the pattern has made him ta'veren. Similarly Mat, or rather the soul that's current incarnation is called Mat Cauthon, was put on earth to fulfill a certain purpose that that soul and only that soul can fulfill, and thus Mat has been made ta'veren in order to increase his changes of achieving that puropse. Thus, Mat could not be replaced by another ta'veren and more than could the Dragon Reborn.
22
Davian93: 2007-11-26
****I don't believe Olver is Mat reborn but Gaidal Cain reborn. Cain is always mentioned as being ugly as is Olver. Also, Birgitte (after being pulled out of Tel'aran'rhiod) tells Nynaeve and Elayne that she could no longer find Cain and that time passes different in Tel'aran'rhiod and that Cain could be a baby or a small boy. This is also when Olver hooks up with Mat. ****
Robert Jordan specifically stated that Olver IS NOT Gaidal Cain in several interviews. It is not possible, the time doesn't match up and it has been clearly stated by the author on several occasions.
23
purgta: 2007-12-03
i think that olver is bridgettes old lover from the dream world as his looks may be interpreted that way
24
Caracarn: 2007-12-04
Here's my main problem with this theory. Isn't Olver 8 or 9 years old? Maybe I'm just having trouble keeping up with time in the books but I don't think it's been a decade since Mat was killed by Rhavin and as has been stated he didn't actually die when he was hung.
25
Kathy Sedai: 2007-12-12
Myrelle has a valid point. Olver is not Mat, otherwise he would be an infant, and being in the same place at the same time is too much of a paradox.
There are also no other precedents to support this, as no other characters are reborn at the same time they are currently in Randland. Even the only confirmed reborn characters, Rand and LTT, occupy the same body, not two separate ones.
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sporkify: 2008-01-02
I think I see several flaws in your theory's design.
"6. Olver satisfies the “laughing face†part of Min’s viewing for Mat. "
I think that a lot of different interpretations are possible for a laughing face. I don't think this really supports or lends evidence towards the Mat-Olver connection.
"“Young Mat†actually refers to Olver"
I think Moiraine realizes that her possible rescue is important, and she wouldn't play games with her description. I think you are reading a bit too deep.
"Stylistically, Jordan writes Olver as a young version of Mat."
I have noticed many differences between Mat and Olver. I think the biggest one would be Olver's view on battles: he wants to see one, wheras Mat tries to avoid them. Mat's old fondness for pranks is not quite seen in Olver, and the two prefer different games.
In regards to the RJ quote, it seems like you are using the quote to demonstrate the possibility of the Mat-Olver one soul theory. It, again, does not lend much support.
In total, I think that you are short on evidence for your theory. You seem to argue possibility, but I don't see much probability.
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dkuz65: 2008-01-07
I don't really buy your proof and your theory, but the part I want to dispute is when it says that Mat is sure snakes and foxes can be won fairly. Mat Cauthon belives this, remember he never touches the dice because his luck would alter the game. His luck would allow snakes and foxes to be won fairly.
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willz: 2008-01-14
A few things to note that really play havoc with things here:
1) Birgitte - she sees something in Olver that reminds her of her lover, who is also bound to the Wheel because Olver's characteristics fit him moreso than Mat. Mat is just a defining person in terms of character, thus the womanizing, playing games, riding horses (though his innate talent leads to previous knowledge learned somewhere other than Mat.) Olver's traits that make him similar to Mat are all things learned from "hero worship".
2) Mat is, for lack of better definition, reincarnation of soldiers from the Two Rivers. In look, heritage, etc. Olver does not have any of these characteristics, and I believe that said specifics would have been needed to "pass onto someone else."
3) Mat would refuse to take Olver with him, not for fear of losing another part of him, but because Olver is too young to be more than a messenger.
Now, as for who will go into the tower with Mat, I believe Domon will go - he is the only other one Mat could trust enough for this mission that Moiraine doesn't know personally, and he does have the most knowledge of history of anyone else still with Mat.
Just playing Dark one's Advocate...
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Dragon Tamer: 2008-02-05
this is an interesting theory and it is neat to hear some new ideas like this. However I can't agree with you. If Olver was Mat re-born, then the Mat we have all come to know and love is in fact a different person. But since we know that isn't true, and I am pretty sure Mat himself would have noticed if half of his soul was missing (or in the kid he is taking care of). I think this would be a momentous event that wouldn't go unnoticed or unmentioned outright by RJ for this long. He would have at least hinted more at this.
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timmooo: 2008-02-09
Good theory. However the main weakness i have spotted is that "young mat knows the way to find me." It is shortly after this (sorry don't have quote as lent my book out) that mat remembers the glistening tower with no entrance.
Though in support of yours the link between them is true. Mat knows where it is while Olver knows how to open it as he was told by Birgette. From memory it is something about a bronze knife and drawing the shape you make at the start of a game of snakes and foxes.
Point 5 however i find a bit weird. as we know that Moiraine has been in their for her true answers before doesn't that imply that he needs to go not where you get true answers but to the the other area.
Overall while i find this theory rather unlikely myself it does have merit.
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RavenPrince: 2008-03-27
You know, that is close, but technically, if your heart stops, don't you die? As Marie says,
-----
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated
Letting sword and Power go, he ripped the rope away from Mat's neck and pressed an ear to his friend's chest. Nothing. Desperately, he tore open Mat's coat and shirt, breaking the leather cord that held a silver medallion on Mat's chest. He tossed the medallion aside, listened again. Nothing. No heartbeat. Dead. No! He'd be all right if I hadn't let him follow me here. I can't let him be dead!
As hard as he could he pounded his fist against Mat's chest, listened. Nothing. Again he hammered, listened. Yes. There. A faint heartbeat. It was. So faint, so slow. And slowing. But Mat was still alive despite the heavy purple welt around his neck. He might yet be kept alive.
-----
When your heart stops beating, aren't you technically dead?So, technically, for 20 seconds or longer because remember, he was hanging from the tree as Rand came out. You don't know how long he could have been hanging there.
I have a question though.... the treaty between the Snakes & Foxes and humans, it is obvious that the triangle with a wavy line symbol will get them into the tower, but what does the treaty symbolize? Is it just the exchange of thoughts for food and the like? Or does the treaty specifically keep them in the Tower of Ghenjei?
As for the young Mat part, you lost me there dude. Moraine was old and an Aes Sedai before Mat was even born, so of course she would call him "young Mat". She is both arrogant as an Aes Sedai and she is his elder. Just food for thought.
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Theshamrock: 2008-04-09
Olver is not Gaidal Cain. That is an extremely common idea. Robert Jordan had no hesitations about correcting that idea when people asked about it. The idea that Olver is Matt is interesting with a few strong points and holes as well. I am stressed for time but will reposts later with details on what i mean. And food for thought there are a few people who are reborn or still surviving in the world that can and will stir thing up in the future
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Dragon Tamer: 2008-04-21
the problem with olver being mat reborn is that then we would have to say that mat is without a soul, as is clearly not the case. People can be resuscitated even after they die in some cases (such as if someone drowns, is choked or has a heart attack). So based on that I would say that Mat may have died but was brought back. His soul either stayed in his body while he was dead for the brief period of time or it came back, who knows. All I know is that Mat is very much alive and is very much in possession of his soul, otherwise Rand would see olver instead of mat in the swirling colors.
