Tamyrlin: 2006-01-06

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Remember that it was Graendal who set the scene for the meeting, since she arrived first. Did she set the number of Chairs, or did Moridin? Considering Graendal's aesthetics, she wouldn't set chairs that don't match, so it may have been Moridin. Then again, that's what everyone would assume, and Graendal did it that way on purpose. Keep in mind that Sammael had Graendal by the throat right before his apparent demise. And his hold over her broke when Moridin was named Nae'blis. Most assume Sammael is dead. Moridin implies he may be alive. An extra chair is placed to add weight to that statement. THAT's what's important, not whether or not Sammael is actually alive. And the additional chairs? An easier explanation is to let the remaining Chosen know that there is room to expand their ranks, so don't be too sure of yourself. Moridin wants them under his thumb, and off-balance enough as to not challenge his rule. Planting these seeds of doubt assist with those aims. Or if Graendal did it, it distracts the others away from what she's up to.

Also, i wouldn't assume that the Chosen can't hurt each other without direct permission. What Lanfear did to Asmodean would break that prohibition. Mesaana can't hurt Alviarin not because Alviarin is now Chose, but because Mesaana is on her own 'last chance' and better not screw up if she wants to remain intact.

Taim, however, is a very strong possibility for one of those chairs. Not only has he bedecked his Black Tower with Moridin's colors, his throne strongly resembles the throne Sammael used in a previous Chosen meeting. Not to mention him repeating the Great Lord's commandment about letting the Lord of Chaos rule.

New Forsaken: 2006-01-06

I thought in that POV when they talk about the servants at the meeting it was pretty clear that Moridin set the meeting site and appearance.

First off RJ said Sammy is toast. If Sammy had any contact with Mashdar the DO would have nothing to do with him, remember the wound in Rand's side how the two evils seem to fight each other. So I dont believe the the DO would even transmigrate his soul after what happpened in Shadar Logoth.

Second I think that Moridin is just trying to keep those plotting fools off balance and keep his title.

Ghoetam: 2006-01-06

While I do agree with the theory considering Taim, RJ has simply jsut portrayed alvarian in such a manner that she is far to weak of a character / person to have been named one of the chosen. While yes, she is the head of the Black Ajah, she is very weak, has had numerous failings, and for most of the series has been at mesanna's beck and call. Good theory though, i just do not see how alvarian could fit into the mix as anything besides a very prominent darkfriend channeler...becomming a dreadlord seems far more likely in my opinion.

Trahelion: 2006-01-06

Well, while there may be new Chosen, I do not believe either Taim or Alviarin is a new Chosen. Alviarin, hero nly purpses to the Great Lord is to dig the black ajah hunters out of the White Tower. She is not near strong enough to be a Chosen. Also recall that it was once mentioned (I can't remember in which book) that the Great Lord sometimes liked his Chosen to battle against each other. This sometimes amused him. So, I don't think that the Dark One would grant protection of one Chosen from another Chosen. Alviarin is just a temporary weapon for the Dark One, useless once her purpose is complete.

There also remains the possibility that Mazrim Taim is not Mazrim Taim. I believe and it may be possible that Mazrim Taim is Moridin. Lews Therin alsways says to himself in Rand's head that "he should ahve killed HIM when he had the chance" he goes on to say that all of the men who can channle should be destroyed, but he specifcally picks out in his mind, Mazrim Taim.

**remember when Bashere first saw mazrim at the gates of Caemlyn that he did not look like the Mazrim Taim he was looking for

Barretto Wen: 2006-01-07

I like this theory except for Alviarin being a chosen. I can't see Alviarin as a chosen at the same time as she's on a strict penance in the white tower, spending most of her mornings in the mistriss of novices room. She hasn't got that pride that the chosen have.

Callandor: 2006-01-07

**I'm sure some are in anger or disgust, having heard Jordan say before that, "Sammael is Toast", but once again, i think this means very little, a good author who invented Aes'Sedai and the Game of Houses, Sammael could be alive but burnt badly, or resurrected as someone else, either way, he is still alive.**

No, he's not. He's dead, he's gone, he's not coming back to the series. We've heard Jordan say this several times beyond the "Sammael is toast." interview. The previously mention:

**Q: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

A: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!**

And then:

**Q: Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?

A: Sammael? Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life, without knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated, he's not going to show up again.**

Sammael's dead. Useless, dead, gone, no more for now.

**this quote is important because it implies that there is something besides being a powerful channeler that allows Myddraal and trollocs to recognize the Dark One's preference, being Chosen.**

Yes, it's the oaths and bonds that come with swearing your soul to the Dark One in the Pit of Doom.

**Sammael lives by simple process of elimination, almost every Forsaken who has died, except by Balefire and Asmodeon, has been brought back, and no one saw Sammael die, he simply disappeared and every body assumes Mashdar took him, no, too simple, too anti-climatic, too not Jordan.**

Jordan himself has explained that Sammael thought too much of himself, and deserved to be killed by something he didn't even see. It's not un-Jordan -- it's what happened.

**This sounds very much too me like being Chosen, a mark the Chosen are given that allows them to be known, to other Darkfriends, Chosen, or Mydrraal. And Mesaana cannot harm her, implying they have become equals at least. So it goes to say that Alviarin has become Chosen, by the Great Lord.**

And it did to many other people, but Jordan killed that idea in the Tor Q&A:

**Week 2 question submitted by: Douglas M (and others)

Hometown: California

Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.**

Ok?

**This implies a certain amount but allows for ambiguous interpretation. I have nothing but deduction, speculation, and implication to say Taim has become a Chosen one, but it seems almost more obvious than many other possibilities.**

Except, and this goes for Alviarin as well, the Dark One has a bias against 3rd Age channelers as shown, again, in the Tor Q&A:

**Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.**

He tries to bring back what is killed due to lower numbers of channelers -- but he doesn't make 3rd Ager's Forsaken, because he sees them as inferior.

**There also remains the possibility that Mazrim Taim is not Mazrim Taim. I believe and it may be possible that Mazrim Taim is Moridin. Lews Therin alsways says to himself in Rand's head that "he should ahve killed HIM when he had the chance" he goes on to say that all of the men who can channle should be destroyed, but he specifcally picks out in his mind, Mazrim Taim.**

Then why did Taim design his palace in the Saldaean style, if he is Moridin? How is he, and how has he, been able to train Asha'man and keep the Forsaken in line, and further his own plots? How was he alive at the time to return to Rand as Taim?

The overwhelming, and simplisitic, answer is Taim is Taim himself, he's just under the influence of Moridin -- probably due to the fact he instructed him.

mako0424: 2006-01-08

I myself have entertained the notion of Taim being Moridin, and in some ways makes sense, and in others it doesn't.

I have come to the conclusion that Taim is a Third Age channeler who has been trained, Compulsed, or something, but that Moridin is in fact seperate.

But to all those who are so sure that Sammael is dead, fine, so be it, neither will influence another to change beliefs, but i still believe that the eleven Throne-chairs imply more Chosen, and it does not allow for some of the others. Asmodean? Oran'gar/Aginor? i don't know, but Alviarhin is portrayed as weak in many ways, but has many other strong attributes, ie. Leader of Black Ajah, finder of Black Ajah hunters, and a quite strong ability to channel

Mesaana.."Your ability is not totally pathetic" Which from an over-wheening, proud forsaken says she is pretty strong.

Alviarhin also knows a bunch of Old and New weaves which no body else does, as taught by Mesaana, and i believe she was Chosen because she is loyal, obediant, and terrified. This makes her a much more useful tool to the Dark One than these over-proud Mesaana's and others who have become almost rogue in their beliefs within themsleves.

And Callandor, i do not know why you went on and on about the Dark One's supposed contempt for Third Age channelers, but its ludicrous, both logically and factually.

What about Dreadlords, Black Ajah, and Taim trained Asha'man who are bad. The Dark One does not hold that much contempt to ignore them, they are plentiful and pretty strong, especially in numbers of thirteen, right?

This would in turn lead to the belief that a third Age channeler, who proves strong enough, competent anough, and useful enough, could be made modern-day Forsaken, having more skills and uses that the Old day Aginor's who can't make anything without technology and so forth.

So take that into consideration as well.

Callandor: 2006-01-09

**But to all those who are so sure that Sammael is dead, fine, so be it, neither will influence another to change beliefs, but i still believe that the eleven Throne-chairs imply more Chosen, and it does not allow for some of the others. Asmodean? Oran'gar/Aginor? i don't know, but Alviarhin is portrayed as weak in many ways, but has many other strong attributes, ie. Leader of Black Ajah, finder of Black Ajah hunters, and a quite strong ability to channel**

Sammael's dead, as has been firmly established. Asmodean was a traitor, and more than likely balefired anyway, and Jordan has also said he would not be returning. Aginor/Osan'gar stands a chance of returning, and it could be as well that even he won't get transmigrated this time. But, he's a possibility that can't be discounted yet.

**And Callandor, i do not know why you went on and on about the Dark One's supposed contempt for Third Age channelers, but its ludicrous, both logically and factually.**

Uh, ok. I said that the Dark One has a bias against making 3rd Agers Forsaken. He sees the original Forsaken as superior to the 3rd Agers, hence, he would never, ever, make a 3rd Ager a Forsaken -- as Jordan blatantly said in his answer.

You don't like it, I could care less --- but that's the pure and simple fact.

**What about Dreadlords, Black Ajah, and Taim trained Asha'man who are bad. The Dark One does not hold that much contempt to ignore them, they are plentiful and pretty strong, especially in numbers of thirteen, right?**

What about them? None of them will become Forsaken -- due to his bias. Where's the gap in the translation?

**This would in turn lead to the belief that a third Age channeler, who proves strong enough, competent anough, and useful enough, could be made modern-day Forsaken, having more skills and uses that the Old day Aginor's who can't make anything without technology and so forth.**

Just doesn't work that way. Again, the Dark One has his bias. He's going to use what he has as long as he can -- but he's never going to put a 3rd Ager as a Forsaken.

**So take that into consideration as well.**

Already did a long time ago, and discarded it shortly thereafter.

KINGofWOLVES: 2006-01-10

I am conflicted a bit here. Personally, i am inclined to believe that 3rd age channelers would not be risen to forsaken status, but not due to any bias by the dark one. Bias is a human term, and as callandor said earlier "Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work."

I know I have read this somewhere else as well. None of us can accurately read the mind of the dark one or say what he would or wouldnt do - the Dark one defies all human understanding. However, I believe that if he found a strong willed, strong channeler from the 3rd age he (she/it/they) would make him a forsakenf - all humans are alike to him - tools, regardless of what time they are from.

Callandor: 2006-01-10

**Bias is a human term, and as callandor said earlier "Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work."**

Whatever the Dark One calls it, he still follows it; again, it's Jordan saying this, not just me explaining a theory I have.

**However, I believe that if he found a strong willed, strong channeler from the 3rd age he (she/it/they) would make him a forsaken - all humans are alike to him - tools, regardless of what time they are from.**

I just gave the quote when Jordan himself said this wouldn't happen. Would he use those forces? You bet he would! Would he make them Forsaken? Not a chance.

Paddy: 2006-01-11

Taim doesn't have the time to have been trained by Moridin. If you can go by the time it takes Aes Sedai to train properly, and these are 'barely trained children', then training Taim would take a lot of time and effort. I believe Moridin has taught him some weaves that he has been teaching to select male channelers so the DO has dreadlords for the Last Battle.

Callandor: 2006-01-12

**Taim doesn't have the time to have been trained by Moridin. If you can go by the time it takes Aes Sedai to train properly, and these are 'barely trained children', then training Taim would take a lot of time and effort. I believe Moridin has taught him some weaves that he has been teaching to select male channelers so the DO has dreadlords for the Last Battle.**

Sorry, I forgot to put the Ishamael/ before Ishamael/Moridin.

And in any case, we have plenty of examples that Aes Sedai go far slower than it can be to train people. Plus, the first couple of years of novice training is doing nothing but making sure you don't kill yourself. A wilder like Taim already has that control. All Ishamael/Moridin would need to teach him is the weaves, and whatever else might come to mind or slip in.

And I would hope you see that Ishamael even has time to do the entirety of Aes Sedai training going at their methods.

Lord of the Dawn: 2006-01-17

Yes, Sammael is definitely out of the picture. Mashadar devours souls and Sammael is DEAD. Does that mean he won't be reborn? His soul is forever claimed by Mashadar?

Anyway, people should consider Osan'gar being transmigrated again. He was only killed with fire, IIRC. So it would be easy for the DO to transmigrate his soul. Moridin might have taken that into account.

Moridin also might have put extra chairs to unsettle the other Forsaken, put them off their balance, because he doesn't want them working together because that could lead to him being kicked off the Nae'blis pedestal. Coupled with his news of "Sammael resurfacing" he probably did that to make them think and get confused even more.

Callandor: 2006-01-17

**Yes, Sammael is definitely out of the picture. Mashadar devours souls and Sammael is DEAD. Does that mean he won't be reborn? His soul is forever claimed by Mashadar?**

No, even Jordan in his answers said that Sammael could be reborn later, by the Wheel, and it would be like any other rebirth: he'd have no knowledge of who he was before.

**Anyway, people should consider Osan'gar being transmigrated again. He was only killed with fire, IIRC. So it would be easy for the DO to transmigrate his soul. Moridin might have taken that into account.**

Osan'gar is really the only possible one, but if he was already transmigrated, why wouldn't he be at the meeting? He's already admitted in his POV he's terrorfied of Ishamael/Moridin, and wouldn't disobey he for fear of consequences.

**Moridin also might have put extra chairs to unsettle the other Forsaken, put them off their balance, because he doesn't want them working together because that could lead to him being kicked off the Nae'blis pedestal. Coupled with his news of "Sammael resurfacing" he probably did that to make them think and get confused even more.**

Very true -- and easily an unforseen benefit if he just put them out there for possible Forsaken being alive and he doesn't know if they're truely dead or not.

Lord of the Dawn: 2006-01-24

***No, even Jordan in his answers said that Sammael could be reborn later, by the Wheel, and it would be like any other rebirth: he'd have no knowledge of who he was before. ***

That could be because Mashadar was destroyed during the Cleansing, so maybe it released all of the souls it had.

Topaz Ashaman: 2006-01-25

Now this is just humble Topaz's opinion, but I can't help but think Sammael will be back in one form or another, memory or no. The way in which he met his end seemed to leave to much room for escape. When all of the other Forsaken have met their end at the hands of Rand, Jordan describes the way in which they die in detail. For example, Be’ Lal’s death in TDR;

“There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.”

Or in TFOH when Rahvin bites the dust,

“It struck the Forsaken, and Rahvin ceased to exist. The Darkhounds in Rhuidean had become motes before they vanished, whatever kind of life they had had struggling to continue, or the Pattern struggling to maintain itself even for them. Before this, Rahvin simply . . . ceased.”

Even with Asmodean, who’s death has sparked more discussion than any other, Jordan makes it clear in the novel that the character is dead.

Sammael’s death was just to ambiguous for my taste, just because Rand did not feel him channel a gateway, does not mean that Sammael could not have run away. Yes Robert Jordan did makes statements about Sammael, but if he did indeed intend for him to return in a later novel, why would he reveal that to any of his readers? Jordan seems like a very vain man, and I doubt he would want any of his surprises ruined, however trite they might seem to the readers.

So, that’s why I throw my support behind a chair being set for Sammael.

Callandor: 2006-01-25

**That could be because Mashadar was destroyed during the Cleansing, so maybe it released all of the souls it had.**

Could be, or it could be that a death by Mashadar is like any other death -- soul goes right to the soul pool. Just didn't allow for the Dark One to capture the soul.

Lord of the Dawn: 2006-01-26

***Sammael’s death was just to ambiguous for my taste, just because Rand did not feel him channel a gateway, does not mean that Sammael could not have run away. Yes Robert Jordan did makes statements about Sammael, but if he did indeed intend for him to return in a later novel, why would he reveal that to any of his readers? Jordan seems like a very vain man, and I doubt he would want any of his surprises ruined, however trite they might seem to the readers. ***

If we're going to start doubting the creator of the series, who can we trust? IMO, it's against reason to be pushing a theory even though RJ has said it is wrong, and justify it by saying RJ doesn't want to let us know. If RJ doesn't want to let us know he would have probably said RAFO (cause he does love to say that;) ).

Also, Sammael's death was a bit odd, but how could he have escaped the balefire and the Mashadar pouring in from every direction? It did seem different but I think he's dead.

Anubis: 2006-01-26

**Yes Robert Jordan did makes statements about Sammael, but if he did indeed intend for him to return in a later novel, why would he reveal that to any of his readers?**

Because so far Jordan has not lied to us, and on the rare occasions he has he has gone and corrected his mistakes.

Callandor: 2006-01-26

**Now this is just humble Topaz's opinion, but I can't help but think Sammael will be back in one form or another, memory or no. The way in which he met his end seemed to leave to much room for escape. When all of the other Forsaken have met their end at the hands of Rand, Jordan describes the way in which they die in detail.**

Sammael can be spun out as a normal person would be reborn, but it's not going to be happening anytime soon. He's dead, and will remain so.

About seeing their death, even Jordan said that Sammael was good for basically just getting killed by something he didn't even see.

**Sammael’s death was just to ambiguous for my taste, just because Rand did not feel him channel a gateway, does not mean that Sammael could not have run away. Yes Robert Jordan did makes statements about Sammael, but if he did indeed intend for him to return in a later novel, why would he reveal that to any of his readers?**

1. Where Sammael was standing, was quickly becoming engulfed by Mashadar. Where he would've ran to, was into death.

2. Jordan said Sammael was dead. If he intended for Sammael to return, he would've said "RAFO" instead of giving answers since it would be important to the plot. Instead, we know Sammael died.

**Jordan seems like a very vain man, and I doubt he would want any of his surprises ruined, however trite they might seem to the readers.**

Indeed, he doesn't want his surprises ruined -- that's why he doesn't explain his answers if there's a surprise or even the potential for a surprise with them. In those instances he gives RAFOs -- with Sammael, he did not. Sammael is dead.

Esse Quam Videri: 2006-02-03

I agree RJ is saying Sammael is dead but does that mean the final death or is he going to show up in a borrowed body? Considering there is only one book left I feel like we won't see him again. If KoD is any example on how RJ is willing to kill off characters (Aram, Rolan) then Sammael is gone for good.

BlackThorne2: 2006-02-04

Those darn eleven chairs keep me up nights, but I think Ive come up with a couple of conclusions as to what they represent.

Now this theory stems from the belief that GRAENDAL placed the eleven chairs when she "set the scene". Graendal, the great shrink of AOL knows for sure that two foresaken are dead (Be'lal and Ravhin). I think she put the other two chairs there for Asmodean and Samnael.

Asmo? Why would she place a chair for Asmo? Because shes sneaky. We've seen POVs for many forsaken speculating as to Asmo's "condition". This implies that any foresaken who doesnt know Asmo's fate didnt kill him. With the possible exception of Moridin/Ishy no forsaken POV has expressed certainty as to Asmo's status, most just speculate as to whether he is dead or not. We havent seen Greandal's POV concerning Asmo's fate.

I think it is becuase she killed him and has been trying to play off as if she didn't; most notable by setting him a place at the DF social in Knife of Dreams. The guilty (and the crazy guilty) try elaborate things to hide their crimes and usually end up drawing attention to their crimes by their devious paraniod behavior. Greandal set a place for him to convince Moridin/Ishy that she believes Asmo to be alive, and the conclusion from that is that Moridin/Ishy wont think she killed him.

I told you she was sneaky.

She also put a chair up for Sammeal, whom i believe is D-E-D dead. The status of Sammael seems to be a mystery even to MORIDIN/ISHY (and Moridin/Ishy has the DO on his speed dial). Since the DO is "Lord of the Grave" and can recycle chosen souls (Aran'Gar, Osan'Gar, and maybe even Cyndane) he should be able to recycle Sammael similirly. Unless Sammael died a specific way as to cut off his connectin to the DO. Asmo's connection was "severed" by Rand, but Sammy didn't have his black cord cut at the time of his death. He WAS killed by Mashadar, the soul devourer. Perhaps when a foresaken dies by Mashadar's "hands" his soul is rendered "dead" and "unrecycleable".

So not even Moridin/Ishy, the DO or even Greandal knows Sammael's status, which makes for one of Greandal's great headgames. Greandal put a chair up for the "missing" Sammeal because she is using his absence to meet her own ends. SHE is the person impersonating Sammy, playing games within games.

Aran/Halima/Balthy wonders who is impersonating Sammy, wondering wo herself who is "playing her game". This implies that Aran/Halima/Balthy went about desguising him/herself as another of the foresaken to some shadowspawn at some point after his/her reawakening or her ressurrection.

I think it is Greandal impersonating Sammy; so she needs to convince others that she believes Sammy to be alive to continue her subterfuge.

Thats all assuming Greandal placed the chairs, assassinated Asmo, and impersonated Sammy. Told you she was crazy.

As to Alviarin being a new Chosen, it is appearant from her POV in Knife of Dreams that her decline in imminent. She is growing paranoid over her mark, and she is being beaten regularly, and her job hunting the hunters isnt going well. Alviarin's going down, and it's prolly going to be a downfall of her own creation. She doesn't have the stuff to be Chosen. I never liked her much anyway.

Now Taim, he could be a new chosen. So could Logain, Cadsuane, Leane... provided they are DFs. Remember that Moraine thinks Cads is BA, (New Spring). Or she speculates that Cads is.

BTW, where is the Knife of Dreams alluded to in the title? Is it Avi's (now Queen Elayne's) magic invisibility to shadowspawn dagger?

JD

Callandor: 2006-02-04

**I agree RJ is saying Sammael is dead but does that mean the final death or is he going to show up in a borrowed body?**

Jordan said that he will not return to the series. His soul has the potential to be reborn by the Wheel eventually later on like a normal rebirth, but he's not coming back to the series in time.

**I think it is becuase she killed him and has been trying to play off as if she didn't; most notable by setting him a place at the DF social in Knife of Dreams.**

Graendal said that they were there when she arrived.

**The status of Sammael seems to be a mystery even to MORIDIN/ISHY (and Moridin/Ishy has the DO on his speed dial).**

Until this recent incident, Moridin had no reason to think that Sammael was alive. He left when Rand and Sammael were still fighting, with Rand intending to kill him, and then he knows Rand is still alive later on and hasn't seen Sammael since.

**Thats all assuming Greandal placed the chairs, assassinated Asmo, and impersonated Sammy. Told you she was crazy.**

Impersonating Sammael is one thing that she's possible of; the chairs, no, and Asmodean, no. She's terrorfied of facing Rand, so she wouldn't go willingly into Rand's area to kill Rand if she could easily avoid it.

**Now Taim, he could be a new chosen. So could Logain, Cadsuane, Leane... provided they are DFs. Remember that Moraine thinks Cads is BA, (New Spring). Or she speculates that Cads is.**

We've had Cadsuane's point of view, and it's nothing like a Darkfriend's point of view. Logain in theory could be, but most feel it would be trite to make him so. Leane also doesn't make terribly lot of sense, but she could be as well.

**BTW, where is the Knife of Dreams alluded to in the title? Is it Avi's (now Queen Elayne's) magic invisibility to shadowspawn dagger?**

Some take it to mean that the progress made in Knife of Dreams is ephemeral. All the gains come at quite a big price, and the price is ultimately weakening the Light.

jason wolfbrother: 2006-02-05

**BlackThorne2

Asmo? Why would she place a chair for Asmo? Because shes sneaky. We've seen POVs for many forsaken speculating as to Asmo's "condition". This implies that any foresaken who doesnt know Asmo's fate didnt kill him. With the possible exception of Moridin/Ishy no forsaken POV has expressed certainty as to Asmo's status, most just speculate as to whether he is dead or not. We havent seen Greandal's POV concerning Asmo's fate.**

Umm yes we have. In LoC there are pov's from both Graendal and Sammael where Graendal explicitly says that Asmodean is dead. She is the only Forsaken willing to make that claim. Every other pov shows uncertainty or doubt about Asmodean. Not Graendal.

**Thats all assuming Greandal placed the chairs, assassinated Asmo, and impersonated Sammy. Told you she was crazy.**

Well I only think she did one of those. and it wasn't the first or the last. And there is not enough proof to convict her of the second.

Graendal admits to being the first there and arranging the meeting in the Gardens yet the chairs clash with the meeting room. Further she says that the zomara were there first and so assumes (correctly imo) that Moridin had them there from the start.

**BTW, where is the Knife of Dreams alluded to in the title? Is it Avi's (now Queen Elayne's) magic invisibility to shadowspawn dagger?**

The little saying at the very beginning is the only reference to the Knife of Dreams in the book

**The sweetness of victory and the bitterness of defeat are alike a knife of dreams.

-From Fog and Steel by Madoc Comadrin**

JakOShadows: 2006-02-05

Blackthorne2:

Everything you say is possible, but what motive would Graendel have for doing this. Because I think if Sammuel is dead, she would want to distance herself from him if Moridin already knows of his treachery. So why would she impersonate him and then try and kill Rand. She would have to have a fairly strong hate for him if she were going to kill Rand against Moridin's orders after being connected to Sammuel. I believe how she acts with Aran'gar is also implies the opposite of your scheme, if she is posing as Sammuel and trying to make them think that she still has him as an ally, why would she allow Aran'gar to treat her that way. In my opinion, Demandred is the guilty person, because of what he says. Everyone else is quiet, and he is trying to play it off as if he doesn't care and is only idly speculating instead of scheming. That and he has the intense hate of Rand, enough so to break Moridin's orders.

And as for the chairs, anyone could have done that for any reason and I don't think it is good evidence to use to support anyside. Moridin could have done it to through them off balance, Greandel could have and not been involved with the Sammuel thing. I think the chairs are totally different scheme and have nothing to do with impersonating Sammuel.

Anubis: 2006-02-05

**Now this theory stems from the belief that GRAENDAL placed the eleven chairs when she "set the scene".**

From a flawed belief comes a flawed theory, Graendal did not chose the number of chairs, she only set the scene because she was first to arrive. Morridin provided the locaion, furniture, and servants.

The Fading Light: 2006-02-05

I like this theory, but I'm going to take Jordan at his word that Sammael is dead (whether or not he meta-merged with Mashdar is another topic).

One chair most likely does stand for Taim.

But the other is either Alviarin or another character that Jordan will introduce in the next book (but is only hinting at at the moment).

Or Perhaps he left this chair-issue ambiguous because he hasn't decided between Alviarin or a new character to be the next Forsaken/Chosen.

BlackThorne2: 2006-02-06

OK you picked apart my theories pretty good I must say, I thought I was on solid grould but hey the WoT is pretty confusing at times. But um some things still nibble at me.

1. Greandal didn't set the chairs cause she says she didn't.

Um the Foresaken are notable liars and schemers. I never take what a foresaken says at face value; they ARE evil. Now Greanlad COULD HAVE lied about setting the chairs, but you're probably right and she didn't. Not cause she says she didn't cause foresaken testimony means nothing without a binder or an oath rod and then only so far. But I cede the point anyway, she most likely didn't set the chairs.

2. Moridin/Ishy's knowledge of Sammeal's status; does he know Sam's dead or does he think Sam's alive?

Moridin/Ishy says (i'm paraquoting) "Sammeal seems to have resurfaced". Why doesn't Moridin/Ishy KNOW if Sammeal's dead or not? The DO is the LORD OF THE GRAVE, so you'd think the DO would know and tell Moridin/Ishy (maybe). I think Moridin/Ishy should be CERTAIN of Sammeal's fate... uness something exotic happened to Sammy, or his black cord was cut (we never saw his cord cut and i'm not implying that it was). I think that Moridin/Ishy MAY know Sammy's fate but he doesn't seem willing to share his knowledge, and also mildly encourages speculation. OR he doesn't know cause dying in Mashadar is an exotic death that prevents recycling. Didn't Jordan say Sammy'd just have to wait till the Wheel weaves him out again in a few thousand years? I might have read that somewhere, don't take it as an RJ quote cause I never met the man.

Oh yeah the dead do walk in KoD, maybe Sammy's ghost ordered the attack (unlikely, I agree, cause the ghosts in KoD and other books dont appear to interact with the living but hey the world IS going wonky).

3. What I said about Cads, Leane and Logain being BA or DFs.

I just pulled three potential New Chosen names from my hat full of suspicious WoT characters (it's a BIG hat). I'm not convinced either way as to the specific

darkfriendliness of Cads, Leane or Logain. That means I was just trying to get folx to look at other suspicious characters not just Taim and Alviarin. And Leane does some extremely ethically questionable things, lying and compulsion among them. Cads too, but maybe she's just a Mean Female Person (thats a G rated version of what I think of Cads). Plus I wanted to remind you that Moraine thinks Cads might be a DF (New Spring) so that might come in to play. This dust jacket of Knife of Dreams says the BA is at Rand's side, so whats that about? Is that Cads? Leane? Logain (I know hes not BA cause the Ajas are a female thing but he seems dark.)

4. Greandal's POV on Asmo's death

Greandal SAYS Asmo's dead. She never THINKS it. The other Foresaken THINK Asmo's prolly dead (but they don't know for sure), thus they didn't kill him. Read above to see what I think of the Foresaken's words. Greandal's #1 on my Who killed Asmo list cause I've eliminated many other Foresaken cause of what they THINK about Asmo's fate. The point may be moot cause in 20-30 years RJ will tell us who did it.

Ever wonder what secret orders Moraine gave to Avienda and Egwene the night before she died? Aviendha is one of the last persons Asmo's final POV mentions by name, and I bet she'd have NO qualms about killing a foresaken, espicially if Moraine told Aviendha that Nateal was a danger to Rand.)

5. About the Knife, are you SURE it's not the magic knife of invisibility to shadowspawn?

I mean there WERE Crossroads at Twilight, a Crown of Swords, a Great Hunt, a Dragon Reborn, Shadows Rising, an Eye of the World, and a Lord of Chaos.

Granted there was no Path lined with Daggers, I agree this title was a Third Age Metaphor.

And there have been many Fires in the Heavens, but that title is prolly a matephor too.

An invisibility to shadowspawn dagger sounds like something I'd dream about if I lived in whatever they call the place where Rand lives.

6. I like that you didn't pick apart my theory of Alviarin's downfall (yet).

Alviarin's going down.

Hard.

Elaida too (for different reasons).

Mua ha ha; crash and burn Elaida and Alviarin.

JD

PS here's a poser for you; Will Rand still be Ta'veran (or however you spell it) AFTER his ressurrection? I think not. It'd suck for him if he still was. It'll be nice for Rand if he has the invis. to shadowspawn dagger after he's ressurrected.

Khazhul: 2006-02-07

I'm not sure if the extra chairs are put out there to make the others think of who they are for necessarily. They could have been put out as a reminder of those who are no longer there. Sort of a reminder of the price of failure.

Callandor: 2006-02-09

**Or Perhaps he left this chair-issue ambiguous because he hasn't decided between Alviarin or a new character to be the next Forsaken/Chosen.**

Alviarin is not a Forsaken, or any form of lesser Forsaken. Taim as far as we know also isn't a Forsaken due to the Dark One's bias against 3rd Agers and their abilities and usefulness.

More than likely, the 11 chairs are for Forsaken that are potentially alive, or to simply unbalance the remaining Forsaken.

**Um the Foresaken are notable liars and schemers. I never take what a foresaken says at face value; they ARE evil. Now Greanlad COULD HAVE lied about setting the chairs, but you're probably right and she didn't.**

No point admitting that she set the decorations, but not the chairs, other than to make this theory possible.

**Didn't Jordan say Sammy'd just have to wait till the Wheel weaves him out again in a few thousand years? I might have read that somewhere, don't take it as an RJ quote cause I never met the man.**

Yes, Jordan has said Sammael could be reborn by the Wheel in other Ages.

**Oh yeah the dead do walk in KoD, maybe Sammy's ghost ordered the attack (unlikely, I agree, cause the ghosts in KoD and other books dont appear to interact with the living but hey the world IS going wonky).**

There are several theories about what ghosts can do and why and where they appear. But it just seems silly for a ghost of Sammael to not only be able to command Shadowspawn after death, but to be right at the forefront of knowledge about where Rand is located as well.

**And Leane does some extremely ethically questionable things, lying and compulsion among them.**

She lies, but so does Siuan, Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve. And as far as I know Leane has never used Compulsion.

**Plus I wanted to remind you that Moraine thinks Cads might be a DF (New Spring) so that might come in to play.**

We've been made quite aware that Moiraine is not omnipotent. Plus, again, we've seen Cadsuane's point of view several times (believe the total is 4 now, but it might be 3 -- know of at least three), and none of her actions, thoughts, memories, anything point to any Shadow behavior like the point of views of Darkfriends, or any other Shadow-worker. Jordan makes it quite clear by their first point of view that they are Darkfriends at least (ever wondered why Taim hasn't been given a point of view?).

**This dust jacket of Knife of Dreams says the BA is at Rand's side, so whats that about? Is that Cads? Leane? Logain (I know hes not BA cause the Ajas are a female thing but he seems dark.)**

It's Elza. She's a known Black Ajah Green who's with Rand's group. Of course there could be others add into it, but Cadsuane is not one of them.

**The point may be moot cause in 20-30 years RJ will tell us who did it.**

At the longest, it's probably 4 years. If it's not in book 12 revealed, it will be with the paperback release of book 12.

**Ever wonder what secret orders Moraine gave to Avienda and Egwene the night before she died? Aviendha is one of the last persons Asmo's final POV mentions by name, and I bet she'd have NO qualms about killing a foresaken, espicially if Moraine told Aviendha that Nateal was a danger to Rand.)**

But Moiraine knew that Rand needed a teacher, and understood this was necessary.

**About the Knife, are you SURE it's not the magic knife of invisibility to shadowspawn?**

Of course it could be that, but it doesn't fit nearly as well as the epigram and the general theme of the book.

**I mean there WERE Crossroads at Twilight, a Crown of Swords, a Great Hunt, a Dragon Reborn, Shadows Rising, an Eye of the World, and a Lord of Chaos.**

Crossroads of Twilight is an equally metaphoric title, so is The Shadow Rising. Many of the latter books had metaphoric titles -- you can argue that everyone past A Crown of Swords is.

**I like that you didn't pick apart my theory of Alviarin's downfall (yet).

Alviarin's going down.**

She's already down quite low. If she goes down any further, she'll probably just be killed.

**PS here's a poser for you; Will Rand still be Ta'veran (or however you spell it) AFTER his ressurrection? I think not. It'd suck for him if he still was. It'll be nice for Rand if he has the invis. to shadowspawn dagger after he's ressurrected.**

No, he won't be because he won't be resurrected.

BlackThorne2: 2006-02-13

A few words;

Leane uses compulsion. She embraces saidar and weaves a net into the head of a Black Ajah and "reprograms" her. The BIG IDEA she forces into the Black Ajah chick's head is the thought that "THE DRAGON MUST REACH TARMON GAIDON".

We saw Leane do it to someone and Elza, (Known BA) shows signs that she has been COMPULSED with Leane's order "he MUST reach Tarmon Gaidon".

So Leane uses compulsion, and she lies. Sure the supergirls lie and Suaun lies, but they arent bound by the oath rod. The BA can lie (somehow) but oath rodded AS cannot lie.

**Crossroads of Twilight is an equally metaphoric title, so is The Shadow Rising. Many of the latter books had metaphoric titles -- you can argue that everyone past A Crown of Swords is.**

um I rattled off every title, only Fires of Heaven and Path of Daggers is a metephor title. About the Crossroads of Twilight, there were several crossroads (one was a corridor) and several supernatural things happened at those crossroads at twilight. Every major plot line had characters experiencing a strange event at a crossroads (or an intersection) at twilight (one was at dawn). Most of the supernatural events involved ghosts. So CoT isnt a metaphor title.

And Winter's Heart is when the WH book took place, right in the heart of winter. It was cold and snowy for the whole book. So, not a metaphor.

But this arguement is lame and we should stop discussing it and get to better issues.

Just remember Leane's super hinky.

JD

Lord of the Dawn: 2006-02-13

IMO, it's logical that Moridin set those chairs. He did set the location, all Graendal did was decide the pictures. Think about Moridin and Nae'blis - we all know the Forsaken covet that title and would do almost anything for it. We also know Moridin doesn't want that, but he is outnumbered by greedy and murderous Forsaken and even he couldn't stand against them working together. Key words: working together. If he finds a way to seperate them, like with the chairs, making them all suspicious of each other scheming, etc. They'll then be too worried and cautious to make a stand against him alone and they are nervous working with the others.

***Leane uses compulsion. She embraces saidar and weaves a net into the head of a Black Ajah and "reprograms" her. The BIG IDEA she forces into the Black Ajah chick's head is the thought that "THE DRAGON MUST REACH TARMON GAIDON". ***

When does Leane do that? I don't remember that part...

haertchen: 2006-02-13

***********************************

Leane uses compulsion. She embraces saidar and weaves a net into the head of a Black Ajah and "reprograms" her. The BIG IDEA she forces into the Black Ajah chick's head is the thought that "THE DRAGON MUST REACH TARMON GAIDON".

*************************************

That would be Verin that did the ultra-slow compulsion. She did it to several Aes Sedai; it was just chance/luck/pattern that one of them was black. And we've got her POV a couple of times, and it seems pretty likely she's not a DF.

One other point, though: Didn't we see Elza's POV during the cleansing where things were left slightly ambiguous as to her DF status?

Anubis: 2006-02-13

**Leane uses compulsion. She embraces saidar and weaves a net into the head of a Black Ajah and "reprograms" her. The BIG IDEA she forces into the Black Ajah chick's head is the thought that "THE DRAGON MUST REACH TARMON GAIDON"**

Leane, Verin, captured Aes Sedai, Head of Black Aja. You know, reading comprehension is overrated anyways.

jason wolfbrother: 2006-02-13

**Leane uses compulsion. She embraces saidar and weaves a net into the head of a Black Ajah and "reprograms" her. The BIG IDEA she forces into the Black Ajah chick's head is the thought that "THE DRAGON MUST REACH TARMON GAIDON".

We saw Leane do it to someone and Elza, (Known BA) shows signs that she has been COMPELLED with Leane's order "he MUST reach Tarmon Gaidon".

So Leane uses compulsion, and she lies. Sure the supergirls lie and Suaun lies, but they arent bound by the oath rod. The BA can lie (somehow) but oath rodded AS cannot lie.**

1) Verin not Leane.

2) The Compulsion required each of the women to come up with their own justification for why they would be loyal to Rand. Elza's happens to be that he must reach The Last Battle to be defeated by the DO. We don't know what the justification used by the rest are as we haven't had their pov's yet.

**um I rattled off every title, only Fires of Heaven and Path of Daggers is a metephor title. About the Crossroads of Twilight, there were several crossroads (one was a corridor) and several supernatural things happened at those crossroads at twilight. Every major plot line had characters experiencing a strange event at a crossroads (or an intersection) at twilight (one was at dawn). Most of the supernatural events involved ghosts. So CoT isnt a metaphor title.

And Winter's Heart is when the WH book took place, right in the heart of winter. It was cold and snowy for the whole book. So, not a metaphor. **

and did you read the epigrams at the beginning of Crown of Swords, Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart, Crossroads of Twilight, or Knife of Dreams?

all of them had the title of the book in them and made metaphorical references to the title. All of them. They are all metaphorical. From Fires of Heaven on they have been both metaphorical, and sometimes physical things as well but mostly metaphorical.

tworiverswoman: 2006-02-14

"Leane, Verin, captured Aes Sedai, Head of Black Aja. You know, reading comprehension is overrated anyways."

Anubis -- the last sentence is the only thing there I understood a word of. Huh?

Leane - Siuan Sanche's keeper -- if she is a darkfriend then she is one of the best actresses in the WORLD! Plus she was stilled and healed. She is currently free of all oaths, to anyone.

Verin -- ok, she IS a bit hinky -- but EXTREMELY unlikely to be a Darkfriend. Her POV has been seen too often, doing things to aid Rand and hinder the Dark One.

Captured Aes Sedai -- Elza and Fera are known Black Ajah sworn to Rand (known by readers, not by Rand and company). Katerine Alruddin was captured but escaped and is now in the White Tower, and was involved in Egwene's capture. The only other known HIDDEN Black is Alviarin, who is the Leader of the Black Ajah, and is, yes, going DOWN. And was never, and WILL never, be accorded status equal to one of the Forsaken. Robert Jordan was pretty specific in his statements about how the Dark One feels about 3rd Age channelers. It doesn’t matter whether or not we think he’s an idiot for discounting them so.

Mako, your original list of 11 doesn't include Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva. While he was killed in Winter's Heart, the probability is that he will be transmigrated to a new body before much longer. Moridin may or may not know this.

You DID include Sammael, which might be reasonable from Moridin’s view. We can’t tell from what’s been said and not said whether or not the Dark One has given Moridin any info on Sammael’s re-birth status. We, the readers, are aware that the author has been clear on this. However, Moridin can’t read his blog.

RJ has been very cagy about Taim. We’ve never had a POV chapter from him. We have LOTS of clues, but no firm proof, of his status in the Shadow, although it seems reasonable to believe it is pretty high. But what applies to Alvarin also applies to Taim. He is a 3rd Age channeler, regardless of how powerful or who trained him. The Dark One will consider him a lesser creature. Given Taim’s nature, when he realizes he’s probably gone as high as he can expect to, I think the results might be … entertaining.

Gotta vote this theory down. Sorry.

BlackThorne2: 2006-02-14

Sorry bout that, I was crack smokin. Verin's the compulsion user. I also get Alivia, Alviarin and Aviendha confused. Above whenever i say Leane I meant Verin. Leane's pretty nice, for an Aes Sedai. Verin's the suspicious one.

Oops

JD

Callandor: 2006-02-16

**Leane uses compulsion. She embraces saidar and weaves a net into the head of a Black Ajah and "reprograms" her.**

As many others have said, that was Verin, not Leane.

**So Leane uses compulsion, and she lies. Sure the supergirls lie and Suaun lies, but they arent bound by the oath rod. The BA can lie (somehow) but oath rodded AS cannot lie.**

Yeah, Leane has lied after she was stilled and removed from the Oaths. Other than that, I don't see your point, unless you want to prove that she lied when she was still bound by the Oaths.

**Most of the supernatural events involved ghosts. So CoT isnt a metaphor title.**

You bet your sweet bottom it is a metaphor.

**And Winter's Heart is when the WH book took place, right in the heart of winter. It was cold and snowy for the whole book. So, not a metaphor.**

Read the epigram. It's obviously a metaphor, and has been used several times also in the series, to describe Rand's attitude and "steeling." If you notice, Rand goes under significant "steeling" in the book.

**One other point, though: Didn't we see Elza's POV during the cleansing where things were left slightly ambiguous as to her DF status?**

Slightly ambiguous?

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

Walking slowly, studying the forested hills around them, Elza suddenly stopped as a nicker of movement caught the corner of her eye. She turned her head slowly, and not as far as the hill where she had seen that flash. The day had been very difficult for her. In her captivity among the Aiel tents at Cairhien it had come to her that it was paramount for the Dragon Reborn to reach the Last Battle. It had suddenly become so blindingly obvious that it astounded her she had not seen it before. Now it was clear to her, as clear as saidar made the face of the man trying to hide on that hill while peeking around a tree trunk. Today, she had been forced to fight the Chosen. Surely the Great Lord would understand if she had actually killed any of them, but Corlan Dashiva was only one of those Asha'man. Dashiva raised his hand toward the hill where she stood, and she drew as hard as she could on Callandor in Jahar's hands. Saidin seemed well suited to destruction, to her. A huge ball of coruscating fire surrounded the other hilltop, red and gold and blue. When it was gone, that other hill ended in a smooth surface fifty feet lower than the old crest.**

Chosen and Great Lord -- classic tell-tale Darkfriend markers.

So, no, by Winter's Heart there's not much doubt. It's only purely clarified in Crossroads however:

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

"It is just as well you're with me," she went on. A pity that the Aiel savages were still holding Fera, though she would have to quiz the White on exactly why she had sworn before she could be trusted. Until the journey to Cairhien, she had not known she shared anything with Fera. A very great pity that none of her own heart was with her, but only she had been sent to Cairhien, and she did not question the orders she received any more than Fearil questioned those she gave. "I think a few people are going to have to die soon." As soon as she decided which ones. Fearil bowed his head, and a jolt of pleasure came through the bond. He did like killing. "In the meanwhile, you will kill anyone who threatens the Dragon Reborn. Anyone." After all, it had become perfectly clear to her, while she herself was a captive of the savages. The Dragon Reborn had to reach Tarmon Gai'don, or how could the Great Lord defeat him there?**

1. Heart -- as in Black Ajah heart.

2. Again, Great Lord reference.

3. She's looking out for Rand's defeat. No light person believes the Dragon is reborn and wants him to be defeated.

**Sorry bout that, I was crack smokin. Verin's the compulsion user. I also get Alivia, Alviarin and Aviendha confused. Above whenever i say Leane I meant Verin. Leane's pretty nice, for an Aes Sedai. Verin's the suspicious one.**

Suspicious, yes, but not a Darkfriend at all. She nearly poisons Cadsuane because she thinks she might be Black Ajah and only doesn't when convince Cadsuane is not Black Ajah.

Ishamael666: 2006-02-18

Back on-topic...

Where do we know what the DO feels about 3rd Agers? Is it in an interview?

Callandor: 2006-02-19

**Where do we know what the DO feels about 3rd Agers? Is it in an interview?**

Jordan said it in the Tor Q&A. The Dark One has a bias against 3rd Agers because the Forsaken have a bias against them; their feelings on the matter filter through to him, so he sees the Forsaken as smarter, stronger, better trained, etc.

mako0424: 2006-02-20

The Forsaken's opinions filter through the Dark One?

That doesn't seem right, why would they disobey him and seek their own goals and objectives as often as they do. ya, they may be similar, but the Dark One is not from the age of Legends, the Dark One is not a forsaken, the Dark One is not a lost, uber-strong channeler in a Third age filled with what they perceive as insolent half-trained Aes Sedai dogs. Of course the Forsaken are angry, disparaging, impertinenet, and more importantly, fearful.

the Dark One is not so human, not so weak, and would never display such extreme emoitions so easily.

thus i do not think, every emotion possible filters through from Dark One to Forsaken, and even if jordan says otherwise, i dont think it takes into consideration the advantages of turning third Age channerles into Darkfriends or even poential new Forsaken.

this contempt for third age channelers seems more to stem from there arrogance and "half-trained" abilities.

Callandor: 2006-02-21

**The Forsaken's opinions filter through the Dark One?

That doesn't seem right, why would they disobey him and seek their own goals and objectives as often as they do**

Well that's what Jordan said.

**Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools…. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.

In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.**

**the Dark One is not so human, not so weak, and would never display such extreme emoitions so easily.**

Jordan says differently; I personally take his word over yours -- no offense.

**thus i do not think, every emotion possible filters through from Dark One to Forsaken, and even if jordan says otherwise, i dont think it takes into consideration the advantages of turning third Age channerles into Darkfriends or even poential new Forsaken.**

1. Whether all emotions filter through to the Dark One or not is irrelevant -- these feelings do, and have.

2. Jordan explicitly says that the Dark One has this bias against 3rd Agers, and tries to re-use his resources (IE: the Forsaken). He runs completely out of Forsaken, yeah, no crap he's going to get more commanders. Until that happens, he won't make a 3rd Ager a Forsaken, and even if he did so, he'd still have his bias against them anyway.

**this contempt for third age channelers seems more to stem from there arrogance and "half-trained" abilities.**

Yes, and that contempt gets through to the Dark One, which makes it so that HE has that contempt of 3rd Agers as well.

jussery: 2006-03-03

This is in reference to whether Taim is Taim, Demandred, is Demandred's lackey, or Moridin's, or is Moridin in disguise, etc.

Obviously, given RJ's statements, he is not Demandred. What I'm wondering, and since I'm at work, I can't go get the books and look, is how many mindtraps does Moridin have? 2 or 3? Could Taim have been turned/mindtrapped/etc? He has made comments that suggest he might have been from the AOL, but what if Moridin, or even Demandred, have him mindtrapped? I believe from Moggy's POV, when she was mindtrapped, she was afraid of it being crushed, then turning her into something of an extension of Moridin somehow and destroying her own self, or something like that. What if that is what has happened to Taim? Moridin or Demandred mindtrapped him, then crushed the mindtrap, and now control him utterly. Could they have the kind of control that they could see what he sees, speak through him, even over long distance separation, so that when he says "these so called aiel" it is really Moridin, just seeing and speaking through Taim?

jason wolfbrother: 2006-03-05

Moridin only has two mindtraps. one is for Moghedien and the other is for Cyndane. besides there is the problem of becoming a mindless automaton if the mindtrap were crushed as you suggest. Taim is too independent and ruthless and imaginative to be a mindless mindtrapped idiot you imply he is.

New Forsaken: 2006-03-06

One of my favorite things when reading theories is when people just can't believe something and don't think it fits even when it comes straight from the writer in the questions of the week. Yes the Chosen's attitudes influence the DO. He does not have freedom from his prison and relies on others for info. The extent of which we still dont know.

Farzon: 2006-04-19

I would think that the last 3 chairs are for Taim, Shaidar Haran, and Fain.

Taim would not be Moridin in disguise because Rand already knows what both of them look like, having a brief encounter with Moridin while fighting Sammael. While the use of Illusion is possible, it's unreliable, as Semirhage's encounter with Cadsuane's ter'angreal showed. Plus, Illusion was only used when she was pretending to be someone else. Otherwise, the Forsaken have been using their own faces. Even with the Dark One's supposed distaste for 3rd Agers, Taim should not be discounted. Recall that when Rand ordered Taim to fill himself with saidin at the founding of the Black Tower, Rand thought to himself that Taim held nearly as much as he could himself, but with no sense of strain, so Taim is definately "strong enough". Add that he knew other tricks (like exploding people) that we don't even see Aes Sedai using saidar versions of against Trollocs, and that he's now in charge of an important faction (Black Tower) in the current state of things, Taim should definately be counted as in the running for being one of the Chosen.

For the other two, I suggest that we consider the Chosen not as the top channeling servants of the Dark One, but rather, the top servants in any shape or fashion. That the Chosen we knew at the beginning were channelers is only because the Age of Legends' strongest people were the ones who can channel. At least, in the terms of this discussion I think it should apply, since it seems we are considering it from the 11 chairs point of view, instead of trying to find even more people so we can fill out 13.

For Shaidar Haran, no one can doubt that he/it is a powerful servant of the Dark One. As we saw with Osan'gar and Aran'gar's rebirth in LOC, and Moghedian right after being put in the mindtrap, he can make it so that a person cannot channel around him. Not to mention his enforcer role against Mesaana. If nothing else, one of the 11 chairs could be reserved for him (in future meetings) simply so that the Dark One can effectively sit-in on planning sessions. Who knows the extent of his abilities.

As for Fain, I think he has certainly shown himself to be a powerful agent of evil. He may be fused with Mordeth, and think himself free of the Dark One, the only real opposition that has been shown to Fain has been Slayer being sent after him (with no results). The Dark One can change his mind at any time, promoting or demoting his servants, which Fain still is, seeing as how Fain had been touched by the Dark One. As for Fain's worthiness, he has a ton of nifty powers. He can sniff out Rand, Perrin, and Mat. The dagger. Ability to sense other Darkfriends. Comfort in using the Ways. A knack for ordering around Fades and Trollocs. And that new illusion power he has shown. Those last 3 can be seen as evidence that he's the Sammael imposter Moridin mentions. Fain changed into a vision of Torval and Gedwyn when fighting Rand, so his power can (maybe) be described as assuming the appearance of those killed by the dagger/him. And since he and the dagger are one, and the dagger is part of Shadar Logoth, and Mashadar is of Shadar Logoth, we could imply that he could look like Sammael. Not that it matters, since he can still lead Fades and Trollocs through the Ways like he did in TGH. Thus, I think he can easily be one of the Dark One's Chosen, whether or not he can go into TAR or would meet with the other Chosen being a seperate matter.

There's no way Alviarin is going to be one of the Chosen. She's too much a sniveling wuss, despite how crafty she thinks she is. She didn't even stand up to Shaidar Haran when he visited Mesaana. We've all seen the Forsaken think of Fades as inferior if a little creepy, even towards Shaidar Haran before they knew who he was. Mesaana did in that encounter along with Alviarin, but Alviarin just panicked. She simply does not have that self-assured sense of supremacy that seperates the leaders from the grunts.

And I am rather convinced that Osan'gar isn't coming back for another tour of duty. At the end of the LOC prologue, Shaidar Harans gives the warning "If you fail.... But you will not fail, will you?" which sort of suggests that his body is his last chance, and that failure (like dying AGAIN) means he's basically screwed over.

JakOShadows: 2006-04-21

Farzon:

I agree that Taim and SH are possibities, but they have some pretty good evidence against them as well. The one for Taim you quoted yourself, but I just wanted to argue that it is stronger evidence than you seem to think it is. The DO is not a very trusting person, so it would be a very big thing to get over. But I do agree, Taim has proven that he is much more talented(or fortunate) than the forsaken. And SH is the DO's avator, so I think he would not need to be present at the meeting. If anything, they would talk before the meeting to discuss the game plan he should go with. So it doesn't seem like he would want to be there.

Now for you third option, I don't know where you came up with that. Fain has done almost as much to hurt the DO's plan as well as Rand's. He is more like Gholam in LotR. He's in it for his personal vendetta against Rand and the DO. So why would he be made a forsaken? Especially when there is a standing order to not kill Rand. I don't think its plausible at all.

Most likely is the fact the Moridin wants the forsaken off balance, and not making schemes of their own against him.

Callandor: 2006-04-21

**I would think that the last 3 chairs are for Taim, Shaidar Haran, and Fain.**

1. The Dark One has a bias against all 3rd Age channelers stopping them from becoming Forsaken.

2. Shaidar Haran is hardly a Forsaken; he's a shadow of the Dark One.

3. Ishamael/Moridin wants to kill Fain. Hardly a person to give him a set at the big table. Not to mention that Jordan has said Fain would willingly take out one of the Forsaken if he got the slightest chance. He hates them as much as he hates Rand.

**Even with the Dark One's supposed distaste for 3rd Agers, Taim should not be discounted.**

He should be for specifically that reason.

**Add that he knew other tricks (like exploding people) that we don't even see Aes Sedai using saidar versions of against Trollocs, and that he's now in charge of an important faction (Black Tower) in the current state of things, Taim should definately be counted as in the running for being one of the Chosen.**

No, because of the Dark One's bias. It's a very large factor, here. It's not as if one has to have the same hair style, and can easily be changed.

**If nothing else, one of the 11 chairs could be reserved for him (in future meetings) simply so that the Dark One can effectively sit-in on planning sessions.**

Why would he need to? Moridin is the Nae'blis, and the Dark One obviously trusts him to give him the title. He gives his orders to Moridin, he tells the others.

**Those last 3 can be seen as evidence that he's the Sammael imposter Moridin mentions.**

But they don't add up to be enough. Fain controlled one Fade, and that took time to do. It wasn't immediate, and it wasn't hundreds at once.

Furthermore, an illusion would not have the properties of the Black Cords to order Shadowspawn around immediately like the Forsaken have.

Not to mention, Fain wants to kill Rand personally; not just send someone else to do it, let alone hundreds of thousands of Trollocs.

**Fain changed into a vision of Torval and Gedwyn when fighting Rand, so his power can (maybe) be described as assuming the appearance of those killed by the dagger/him.**

No, he projected them. He didn't become them.

Canan Urgas: 2006-04-21

Quote "As for Fain, I think he has certainly shown himself to be a powerful agent of evil. He may be fused with Mordeth, and think himself free of the Dark One, the only real opposition that has been shown to Fain has been Slayer being sent after him (with no results). The Dark One can change his mind at any time, promoting or demoting his servants, which Fain still is, seeing as how Fain had been touched by the Dark One"

Not a chance. there is absolutely no way that padan fain will be raised to chosen. he is a renegade darkfriend and moridin-Nae'blis-ordered slayer to kill him. the dark one wont tollerate betrayal, and even if they wanted him back on the dark side fain hates the dark one almost as much as he hates rand, so he wouldnt want to be Chosen. As for the idea of anyone being new Chosen i think its doubtful especially so close to tarmon gaidon. if anyone i would guess taim but the if is a big one. alvhiarin might have been raised if she werent demoted from being elaidas keeper.

BrainFireBob: 2006-07-25

Be'lal need not be permanently dead. Weak balefire, and Jordan has said weak enough balefire does not prevent the DO seizing the soul- my guess for Taim.

jae: 2006-07-25

Just a few points on this theory. Firstly Sammael is definatly dead and moridin is aware of this. In the scene in POD where moridin discusses Sha'rah, the game like chess he states

""A complex game, sha'rah, ancient long before the War of Power. Sha'rah, tcheran, and no'ri ... each had adherents ... but Moridin had always favored sha'rah. Only nine people living even remembered the game. He had been a master of it."

Only nine players alive remember it. clearly at this point moridin is the Nae'blis and aware who lives and who is dead. There are nine who we are sure are alive and therefore we know all others are dead. those alive are

1. Moridin/Ishy

2. Lanfear/Cyndane

3. Moghedian

4. Graendal

5. Aran'gar/Halima/Balthamel

6. Demandred

7. Semirhage

8. Mesaana

9. Osan'gar/Dashiva

Now if osan'gar has not been reincarnated due to his multiple failures then we have 8 seats accounted for. 4 remaining.

The only 3rd age person i can think who would have been raised is taim. This is because, as had been said the chosen and the dark one seem the find the channelers of this age inferior, the only person who has proved there worth is taim. Since i dont believe verin is a df or that alviarin has proved herself i think the extra chairs were set up to put the other chosen off gaurd, however knowing R.J im sure a few surprises might make it possible that some unforseen people may be dark friends.

One other point i have thought of is that clearly by the ending of KOD Taim is at least a DF, but then why did he give rand the Two seals he had if just a few books later the other friends of the dark were going to make such an effort to retrieve them. The few choices are either Taim acted on his own against the wishes of whoever is in charge of him, and they then tried to retrieve them. (doesnt seem the most plusible as he hasnt been punished as far as we know)



Perhaps the original plan (whatever that was) didnt work and they wanted the seals back.

Or perhaps it was just a plan to drive his followers apart.

Would like some thoughts on this though as none of these seem to make much sense to me.

ScorpiOve: 2006-08-30

-- About the eleven chairs: --

I would like to think the too many chairs was a way to keep the Chosen ones occupied with trying to puzzle them out. Whoever's responsible for them must have put them there to throw the others off guard.

If they were meant to remind them of how easily they have failed and been killed by inferior creatures like the third agers there should have been thirteen charis, to really show how thin their ranks are getting.

-- About Sammael and recycling: --

There seems to be a pattern to the time it takes to be resurrected by the DO. IF sammael is to return, he will do so by the next book.

Aginor and Balthamel was killed in the first book, and returned in the sixth, being away for four volumes.

Likewise Ishamael was destroyed in the third book, and returns in the eighth after a four books long vacation. Be'lal was also destroyed in that book which should mean that IF he was to return, he would be here already.

Cyndane apperas in book ten, and four books earlier (the fifth) we see the disappearance of Rhavin, Asmodean and Lanfear.

If Osan'gar is to return, he will have to wait until a book numbered fourteen.

With this long nagging text, I try to say that Sammael shouldn't be back until the next book, if he's coming back at all. According to my statistics Moridin is wrong about Sammael resurfacing (clearly meaning that I should be Nae'Blis instead of that fool).

-- About some possible darkfriends: --

Verin - I like Verin. I really, really do. I feel she cannot be evil, which probably means she is and that will make me very sad.

Leana - Leana doesn't have to be a darkfriend just because she lies. She is no longer held by the oath rod, and she has been trying to compensate for things sha has been unable to do while an Aes Sedai ever since she and Siuan was stilled and escaped.

Logain - Min saw glory around Logain as her wiewing, and as she knew what it meant she ought to have understood if it was dark glory. The glory of the Dark One, I think, would be different from ordinary glory.

Taim - Taim is as obviously a darkfriend as Verin is not, which mirroring Verin probably means that he is not connected to the dark. Though I still hope he will get a proper spanking from someone soon.

Cadsuane - I have had mixed feelings about this Aes Sedai. In the beginning I disliked her, but as I read on I like her more and more. She is a bit of a mystery, but she is also a bit like a mother (looking after Rand) or an Obi Wan Kenobi/Dubledore (older mentor). She is however a bit to openly annoying to be a darkfriend.

JakOShadows: 2006-08-31

ScorpiOve:

Despite what you believe, the way we percieve someone doesn't always exactly mirror their intentions. We have had Verin's pov several times and seen no direct evidence she is a df, so it is rather flimsy to say she is df because she is a goody-two-shoes. Same goes for all the others, we've seen their intentions in their pov and you can't just say its automatically going to opposite of their personality to counteract all that circumstantial evidence. And actually, there are examples of df actually being malicious and evil, like Liandrin and some of her cronies. It isn't always misdirection like the Selene(Lanfear) character in tGH.

Callandor: 2006-08-31

**Likewise Ishamael was destroyed in the third book, and returns in the eighth after a four books long vacation. Be'lal was also destroyed in that book which should mean that IF he was to return, he would be here already.

Cyndane apperas in book ten, and four books earlier (the fifth) we see the disappearance of Rhavin, Asmodean and Lanfear.**

Ishamael returned as Moridin in book seven, A Crown of Swords (returing in The Path of Daggers would be five books away, really). As well, not all the books last the same amount of time. For example A Crown of Swords chronologically lasts no more than a week (10 days Randland time) or so. The Path of Daggers a bit more than two weeks I believe.

Also, Cyndane returned in The Path of Daggers, book eight. We didn't see any of the Forsaken save Mesaana in Crossroads.

clint: 2006-11-27

Three unaccounted for chairs, assuming they aren't just a ploy to keep the other Chosen off balance. My candidates:

1) Rand Al'Thor

2) Shaidar Haran

3) Aginor/Osan'gar re-raised

4) Taim

5) Slayer

6) Shocking betrayal (Cadsuane, Alivia, Elza? ...)

(1) Rand Al'Thor

It would seem to have been made clear repeatedly that Rand would be eagerly ushered into the ranks of the Chosen, and perhaps even made Nae'blis were he to turn to the dark side. The strong, repeated orders that he not be killed would seem to indicate that the Dark One (or Moridin) has not given up this hope.

One chair could be reserved for him.

(2) Shaidar Haran

While other theories abound about this character, it's not out of the question that he could be a Chosen. Myrddraal are described as throwbacks to trolloc's human ancestry, and this myrddraal can clearly channel the True Power.

(3) Aginor and (4) Taim have already been pretty thoroughly discussed.

(5) Slayer

Very unlikely -- Slayer takes orders from many Chosen, not just the Nae'blis, but I thought I'd throw out the name.

(6) Shocking betrayal

Many of the AoL Forsaken are described as having been staunch warriors for the Light, and in LTT's inner circle before they betrayed the light at a crucial moment, turning the course of an important battle. This has been described over and over -- it would almost be shocking if it didn't happen again in this age.

Last thought -- we're told that the Dark One encouraged his Chosen to fight among themselves, jockeying for position. Could it be that Elza inadvertently earned herself a place among the Chosen by killing Osan'gar?

JakOShadows: 2006-11-28

Clint:

Elza wouldn't be a good candidate for promotion though. She wasn't even close to a high level BA. And the DO and Moridin have shown reluctance at raising the head of the BA, Alviarin. Taim certainly has gained a lot of power, but still isn't considered chosen. And I believe he has done much better, so in comparison I don't think its possible.

As for Shaidar Haran, there's pretty good evidence that he is the DO in the form of a super fade. We see that he gets weaker away from the bore, etc, there are some fairly strong hints and is explained in other theories. That being said, it is possible one of those seats is for him, but the DO has always held himself aloof of the forsaken. So why would he now give a seat to Shaidar Haran, his worldly form. It is possible, but it just strikes me as odd considering how he operates.

Callandor: 2006-11-28

**Last thought -- we're told that the Dark One encouraged his Chosen to fight among themselves, jockeying for position. Could it be that Elza inadvertently earned herself a place among the Chosen by killing Osan'gar?**

No. As said above, the Dark One has a bias against 3rd Agers and sees the Forsaken in all forms as superior to them. That's why he recycles them. If he felt he could replace them, he'd let them die once they failed him. Yet he has further reduced resources now, and again that bias, that leads to just the Forsaken being in their positions. Same reason Taim is not a Forsaken -- it's a bias.

Catalyst: 2006-12-25

I continually wonder whether the title Nae'blis, the Highest of the Chosen, doesn't mean something else as well? Siuan Sanche said in Path of Daggers something like this - when you perform an action, there are at least three reactions, one of them bad for you.

My point is this: the Nae'blis is the Chosen One to rule under the Dark One himself. BUT... Shai' bloody 'tan has to be freed first. What if he simply posesses the body and the soul of the Nae'blis? This is how it is going to be: he is free in the world, ravaging, but the third reaction is this: he becomes vincible and able to destroy.

And this might explain exactly why he wants the Dragon as his Nae'blis. If the Dark One and the Champion of the Light emerge, the Light's resistance dies for all time.

And about bloody Mazrim Taim? I hope that RJ will confront him with Logain directly, thus gaining the titles the Black Flame, the Guardian of the Land, the M'Hael. Just like the Flame of Tar Valon, the Watcher of the Seals, the Amyrlin Seat. Jahar Narishma becomes the Keeper of the Blade (I mean Callandor). That's it.

Catalyst: 2006-12-25

And something I just remembered, a way how to raise the new M'Hael. Elaida has to be punished, right? And the M'Hael has to be the best of the Asha'man. What if the test for being raised to the Death Throne is stilling Elaida? Rand stand before all the Asha'man and announces this:

"Let the candidates for the Death Throne come here. Remember: you must be sure that you will lead the Tower to glory and power. The test is simple: enter Tar Valon and still Elaida. You are NOT allowed to kill the other candidates. The first to reach and still the usurper will be named M'Hael." I would like something like it.

Anubis: 2006-12-26

**"Let the candidates for the Death Throne come here. Remember: you must be sure that you will lead the Tower to glory and power. The test is simple: enter Tar Valon and still Elaida. You are NOT allowed to kill the other candidates. The first to reach and still the usurper will be named M'Hael." I would like something like it.**

Think about the possible consequences of this. Do you think your average Aes Sedai would let an outsider into their business? Do you think one would let Ashaman into their business? Those orders would lead to the most violent bloody war ever.

Catalyst: 2006-12-28

Bace, da ti napomnim... oops... Rand doesn't say anything like "Stroll in and f*** up everything." Did you forget that Asha'man can actually Travel? Do you remember from WH, Chapter 11, how rand SNEAKED in a palace full of women who can channel?

Besides, this would be something exactly for Logain (we are sure he will be M'Hael) - to give Elaida back what she deserves.

Callandor: 2006-12-29

**My point is this: the Nae'blis is the Chosen One to rule under the Dark One himself. BUT... Shai' bloody 'tan has to be freed first. What if he simply posesses the body and the soul of the Nae'blis? This is how it is going to be: he is free in the world, ravaging, but the third reaction is this: he becomes vincible and able to destroy.**

The Nae'blis is the Dark One's Regent on Earth, with no other meaning know or suggested. He leads the Forsaken and orders them. The Dark One already has an apparent avatar: Shaidar Haran. Moreover, you cannot kill the Dark One. He's not a thread in the Pattern, he's beyond the Wheel and Pattern. There's nothing for anyone inside and of the Pattern to destroy; no target to aim at. He can control Shaidar Haran essentially like an avatar similar to what you're saying, but not what you're saying at the same time.

JakOShadows: 2006-12-30

Catalyst:

As much as I would love for that to actually work, I think that Rand would never do that or anything close to it. It is just to risky consider that he is currently trying to make a deal with the seanchan and still has to worry about the LB when it is obvious it is coming soon. He just wouldn't risk all out war between the channelers now, not to mention its not even in line with his current strategy. He is just going to stand aside and let the AS deal with the situation in the tower.

wantfear: 2011-08-18

Hey guys i was digging through the theory archives and i found this theory here and it set me wondering. While i dont necessarily agree with the premise of who might be filling all these chairs, it would be interesting for moridin to use that as a signal for the chosen to know the number of their group. An indicator of sorts if you will. Could somebody look up the most recent forsake tea party and see how many chairs there were? Bcuz im positive they have had one since KoD came out which is the latest book out at the time this theory was published?

Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-08-21

A theory about the number of chairs in a Forsaken meeting... But I can tell you I like it.

At this point, KoD was the last book, but there haven't been full Forsaken parties anymore. Not like these.

This also means there are eight real Forsaken left, instead of five.

wantfear: 2011-08-22

There could be six. Taim could've been one of the unclaimed chairs.

Ashaman Leyrann Gaidin: 2011-08-24

Eight. Sammael and Alviarin are both still alive. If this theory is right. So Graendal, Cyndane, Moghedien, Demandred and Moridin as the "known" five, and Sammael, Taim and Alviarin as the other five. But not six.

wantfear: 2011-08-25

I think what we are seeing is a glimpse of Moridins ignorence. I've heard it suggested that he would lie to the others to cover his own ignorence. Not knowing something isn't in Elan Morin Tednorai's character. I think that he only assumes that Sammuel is alive because he thinks only one of the chosen could command the trollocs and fades. Really i'm sure that this is Fain. Not that Moridin knows it waa Fain, but that doesn't change the fact. Or opinion rather. We have seen Fainshow his power to control creatures of the Great Lord on frequent occasion, and despite the fact that Fain's touch is now enough to kill a Fade(as of ToM i believe), he is still likely to have been controlling the fades for two reasons. First, we know that his powers have been GROWING, which also bears the obvious implication that he oculdn't always kill them at a touch. There is therefore no conclusive evidence to suggest that he could in fact have killed them with a touch at that time, being infact much earlier than ToM(i can't provide the ook that had the attack on algarin's manor because i'm too lazy to scroll up to find out and because i don't have the books on hand). And secondly, irrespective of whether or not he could kill them with a touch at that time, most fades would probably switch to his side rather than lose their life. Remember how he roped in that one Fade that he had roped in at the whitecloak camp?

Case solved?