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Home | Index | Archives | Help
he Talents of Egwene
by wolfbrother10: 2006-06-06 | 2 out of 10 (6 votes)
Recent Categories: Miscellaneous KoD Theories
I would like to focus on one of these wonder women (my favorite), Egwene. Egwene to me is extremely important in the battle against the shadow. She followed Rand, Matt and Perrin out of her own accord. She decided to study in the White tower to aid Rand in his quest against the shadow. She decided to go to the Aiel Wise Ones to study and become a dreamer for the same purpose. She has done many things out of her own resolve without much interruption from outside sources unlike our three Ta’veren who usually have been guided or even Nynaeve who has decided to go along to avenge herself from Moiraine and to protect these children whose diapers she changed.
We have discovered that the ter’angreal used for the testing of novices in the white tower shows reflections of possible outcomes in Randland or in other dimensions. The people themselves are the same but the decisions made are different which lead to different even parallel lives.
During Egwene’s testing some might tend to focus on the interaction between the dream ter’angreal and the testing rings, or whether one of the sisters present was of the Black Ajah (Alviarin) but we lose focus of some of the revelations in Egwene’s testing in:
The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 22: The Price of the Ring:
First ring:
• Seanchan invade Randland and start a global war
• Rand was going insane due to the One Power
• Nynaeve miraculously healed people
• Egwene was apprentice to Nynaeve
Second ring:
• Invasion of Shadowspawn in Andor
• Rand is hunted by the Shadow and can channel
• Rand is going insane
Third ring:
• Egwene is Amyrlin
• The Black Ajah has been hunted down
• Elaida was a Red Sitter
• Egwene is betrayed by an insider (her Keeper)
• Egwene was raised to Amyrlin without holding the oath rod
• Elaida replaces the Amyrlin
• There will be a war in the tower because of Egwene
All of these points are facts that have happened or are in the process of happening. This leads me to believe that other things that are found in the testing are foreshadows as well. I believe that maybe the presence of the Dream ter’angreal allowed Egwene’s testing to be more accurate in possible events.
Firstly in the second two rings Egwene is Aes Sedai and know that she can channel. In the third she channels to her hearts content. This is not supposed to happen as Sheriam told Nynaeve after her testing:
The Great Hunt: Ch. 23 The Testing pg. 343
“I channeled the Power. It was so easy.†Sheriam missed a step. “That isn’t supposed to be possible. You should not even remember being able to channel.â€
This proves that Egwene’s testing was special just like Nynaeve. If you read further from the quote you see that most sisters were burnt out and even died when entering the rings knowing that they can channel and channeling.
While in her Testing the first two of the ring ter’angreal we see that Egwene has the Talent of Healing. In both she is about to heal Rand before the doorway appeared for her to move along.
The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 22: The Price of the Ring, Pg 249 (Paperback)
“Nynaeve was teaching her the herbs, teaching Egwene to follow her as Wisdom, one day. Nynaeve’s cures often worked in near miraculous fashion, wounds healed with barely a scar, sick folk brought back from the edge of the grave. But three times now, Egwene had cured someone Nynaeve had given up for dead. Three times she had sat to hold a hand through the last hour, and seen the person get up from a deathbed.â€
We see in this scene that Egwene had Healed or cured as she calls it someone that Nynaeve could not cure. Even though Nynaeve is the Healer of the group Egwene was her apprentice as this scene reminds us.
In the second ring Egwene comes straight out and tells us that she can Heal.
The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 22: The Price of the Ring, Pg 254 (Paperback)
“I will Heal you, I will do anything to get you out of there, but I cannot kill you.â€
In this scene we see that Rand is at the brink of insanity and is unable to continue fighting against the affects of the taint. He tells Egwene to kill him but she says that she cannot but that she will Heal him.
In the third she also is about to help Rand before the doorway appeared. I believe the third ring possesses the most foreshadowing of all the rings in her testing. This section reveals all the information that I included above and is found in The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 22: The Price of the Ring, Pg 256-65 (Paperback).
After her escape from possible death due to interaction between the ter’angreals Elaida tells Egwene that she has a vast amount of potential and power, if not she would not have escaped her testing with all the mishaps.
We all know that Egwene is an overachiever. She wants to learn every weave all Talents but we can see that she is drawn somewhat to Healing. This is reasonable because she was Nynaeve’s apprentice. The following quotes offer evidence for my view:
The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 18 Healing pg 211 (Paperback)
“Egwene fought the urge to open herself to saidar and add her flow to the tide…Light, Egwene thought. I could do it. But she did not know what it was she could do.â€
Egwene watched in amazement at how the Amyrlin and company healed Mat. She believed that she could do something to help and fought against the urge to aid in the healing. Sure the amount of the OP that was being wielded was also enticing but we see that the characters mentioned are Nynaeve and Egwene as wanting to join in, The Healer and her apprentice.
The Shadow Rising, Ch. 7 Playing with Fire pg 147 (Paperback)
“The wound in Rand’s side that Moiraine could never Heal completely…she could see something of how that could be Healed.â€
Egwene recognizes that healing is something that is extremely complicated (Nynaeve’s version), yet she believes that she could possibly Heal Rand. In this section she is convinced that she could Heal something that Moiraine could not.
We see one of the Kin (Sumeko, I believe) criticized Nynaeve’s version of Healing as rough; she herself (Sumeko) seemed better at healing than Nynaeve. Why can’t Egwene also be better at Healing?
Another quote that I believe foreshadows a great Healing is the following:
The Shadow Rising, Ch. 5: Questioners pg 118 (Paperback)
“What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existenceâ€
This was Nynaeve lecturing Aviendha about stilling. We all know that Stilling, Severing, Gentling can be Healed. Based on this quote Stilling has the same possibility of Healing as a cut off hand (Rand) which is 100%. I believe that Egwene will contribute some great Healing or will do it herself. The healing could be of Rand’s missing hand or of the madness from the taint. This is how she will aid Rand in the end. So there is my theory.
Thanks to Callandor for his comments. There are still some holes but I believe that through other peoples inputs the idea can be fleshed out better.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2006-09-04
Wolfbrother, it is interesting to consider that it may be Egwene instead of Nynaeve, since most people will point right to Nynaeve regarding raising someone from the dead. We know Rand will face the anger of the Amyrlin; however, we know Egwene is a bit tied up at the moment, and we only have one more book. It may be that Egwene heals him, but I think that would require Rand making his way to the Tower...which might be interesting if Rand finds out she is captive.
Callandor: 2006-09-04
**She has done many things out of her own resolve without much interruption from outside sources unlike our three Ta’veren who usually have been guided or even Nynaeve who has decided to go along to avenge herself from Moiraine and to protect these children whose diapers she changed.**
I would answer that with a single word: hardly.
You're crediting Egwene's own resolve, when really it's fate and ta'veren influences. The most telling example of just how much everything does return to Rand, Mat, and Perrin (and really, just to Rand then) and how even Egwene is subject to this is with the Cleansing. Rand's actions at the Cleansing is what lead to Egwene's actions with the Salidar Hall (even if they were misinformed about the situation). Nothing else did. It's all the influence of Rand. Deciding to go to the Wise Ones? You might want to remember she was in Tear with Rand at the time as well -- not to mention following along with him the entire time with the Wise Ones until she left. That was only another incident sparked by Rand's actions, since it was the breaking of the Tower that originated Salidar's creation, and Siuan's stilling, and Min's return to the Tower, and with Min freeing Siuan and taking them to Salidar, they were the main factors in getting Egwene to be the best candidate for Amyrlin -- which is what made her leave.
So Egwene hasn't been immune from these effects -- they're as present as in anyone, and arguably more since she spent quite a lot of time around Rand.
**All of these points are facts that have happened or are in the process of happening. This leads me to believe that other things that are found in the testing are foreshadows as well. I believe that maybe the presence of the Dream ter’angreal allowed Egwene’s testing to be more accurate in possible events.**
The testing ter'angreal does seem to have some reality based elements to it, but the large part of it is based on what the person going into it knows it seems. That's why Egwene still has the Aes Sedai look, though she's never sworn the Oath Rod -- an impossibility. That is why Nynaeve can sense Aginor's channeling naturally -- an impossibility.
**Egwene watched in amazement at how the Amyrlin and company healed Mat. She believed that she could do something to help and fought against the urge to aid in the healing. Sure the amount of the OP that was being wielded was also enticing but we see that the characters mentioned are Nynaeve and Egwene as wanting to join in, The Healer and her apprentice.**
That I'd say is just a stretch. Egwene says that she just wants to add to the flow of saidar -- it's the drug-like enjoyment of the One Power.
**This was Nynaeve lecturing Aviendha about stilling. We all know that Stilling, Severing, Gentling can be Healed. Based on this quote Stilling has the same possibility of Healing as a cut off hand (Rand) which is 100%.**
Three things:
1. We've seen a hand that has been cut off get Healed -- it was the hand of a Shaido Aiel that Perrin cut off. It Healed into a stump.
2. Rand's hand was blown off and destroyed, not just cut off. In Perrin's example, there was still a hand there to "use" one could say; in Rand's case, there's nothing.
3. Nynaeve Healed Rand's hand to a stump, as well.
Now, all this might very well actually be a comparison to stilling and burning out. In the example with Perrin, the hand is cut off, but it's still physically there. Like with stilling, the connection is cut but there is something to be Healed and reconnected. It could be that there is a way to reconnect a cut off hand if you use the cut off hand and just reattach it. That would be a bit like stilling.
But Rand's case is like being burnt out. There's nothing there anymore -- there's just a stump. The hand is gone. In burnt out cases, there's no connection there. There's nothing to be Healed. There's just the remaining burnt out former channeler.
And finally, we've been told that what has been Healed cannot be Healed again. Rand's hand has been Healed as it is: a stump. Something else would have to happen to it to be Healed (like the idea of Siuan and Leane being stilled again just to be Healed again).
mako0424: 2006-09-04
Very interesting!
I was surprised in that i had forgoptten about egwene's continuing Healing of Rand's madness in both visions during the Testing.
This within itself is the most perplexing part, because i agree that both her visions and Nynaeve's have much pertinence to real world, based on some small choices that alter the course of the future slightly.
But as interesting an idea as this may be,
i would have to disagree because i think the major difference between Nynaeve's healing abilities, which are proven to be very good, and egwene's which i can't recall exactly where from, but i know her and Elayne have hardly any Healing ability would be that Nynaeve's block was anger-driven, and If Egwene had stayed in Emond's Field, her block may have been desperation or love or something, thus helping her be able to Heal people that Nynaeve couldnt, such as Rand.
The only interesting factor could be the Healing of mental illness may be egwene's Talent, akin to Nyaneve being equal to Semirhage on physical healing, and egwene maybe equal to Graendal or something.
but this i think is unwaraanted, i think Egwene's Talents are numerous as is, Healing wont be one of them.
wolfbrother10: 2006-09-05
"You're crediting Egwene's own resolve, when really it's fate and ta'veren influences."
Callandor, a huge part of why Egwene went to the Waste was due to the dream ter'angreal that was given to her by Verin. In TAR Egwene had her first encounter with a Wise One and was urged that if she wanted to learn she should go to the Waste. Rand of course was indirectly responsible for her decision because she wanted to help him but the inciting incident in the chain of events you describes was the dream ter'angreal and not necessarily Rand's Ta'vereness.
I did not mention that Egwene was immune to Rand's Tavereness just that she had more liberty to move as she saw fit and not guided or tied to Rand as much as lets say Mat.
In regard to your criticism of the healing of a hand it is necessary to understand the how healing of the body works. When someone is healed they are in a form regenerated. The word regenerated means to re-create or re-constitute hence someone being healed is returned to the original state of the body before the wound was aflicted. The method of healing both the Aiel's and Rand's hands were just to stop the blood from oozing out and to enclose the wound. However, if the healer focuses in guiding the regeneration of the cells in the hand they could possibly reconstitute a limb. All parts of the body are created of cells that heal the only thing is that the cells will have to be guided to recreate the original structure.
The healing of a severed channeler is different in the sense that the link between channeler and OP is not a living thing. The link is either connected or it's not. It can be bridged or cut but there is no deterioration so there can be no regeneration. The comparison to be is weak and the argument is not solid.
Mako:
Egwene's highlighted Talent appears to be only Dreaming and this of course is not tied to the OP. The purpose of my theory is to highlight the relationship between Nynaeve (Healer) and Egwene (Apprentice). As the books have progressed it seems that this relationship has changed but I believe that there is still something significant that might be overlooked if we just chose to settle to the labels given of each individual. An example of what I mean is the following:
Nynaeve was a Wisdom who listened to the wind. Nynaeve always hears storms brewing but they are always metaphorical now-a-days. Someone might think that Nynaeve would possess a Talent with the weather but we are told by Elayne herself that she is the most experienced AS with weather, while she is trying to form clouds during the heat wave (not sure the book).
My intention was to look at what was given and make a supposition as to where we might go. :)
Prince of Ravens: 2006-09-06
Yeah, he will know her wrath, shrug it off, and tell her what to do or stay out of his way ;-)
Avatar: 2006-09-06
I think that Healing Rand's madness is simply another part of what Callandor said:
**The testing ter'angreal does seem to have some reality based elements to it, but the large part of it is based on what the person going into it knows it seems. That's why Egwene still has the Aes Sedai look, though she's never sworn the Oath Rod -- an impossibility. That is why Nynaeve can sense Aginor's channeling naturally -- an impossibility.**
Rather than Egwene really being able to Heal anything, she just wanted to at that time - it was one of her most important concerns back then. And thus, she experienced that during her testing - to see if she really wanted to be Aes Sedai more than anything.
Ozymandias: 2006-09-06
"Based on this quote Stilling has the same possibility of Healing as a cut off hand (Rand) which is 100%."
This was included in the books I believe (and common sense tells us) as an example of something that can never happen (or as a comparison of that fact). They used the hand example to say that stilling can never be healed. Just because one happened does not mean the other can. And I think that quote might be misleading... I haven't done a background check, but that might refer to burning out. Which has a different meaning altogether, both semantically and physically.
Think about it. To "sever" something implies that you've just made a cut somewhere. Think about it like a rubber band. you cut it in the middle and both ends snap back, but there is the same amount of rubber band there. When you burn the rubber band... there is less rubber band when your done. While this is a terrible continuation of an originally poor analogy, it is possible to tie back together a cut rubber band, while a burnt one is impossible to fix.
The point was... that quote in no way means Rand's hand is coming back
wolfbrother10: 2006-09-07
**Rather than Egwene really being able to Heal anything, she just wanted to at that time - it was one of her most important concerns back then. And thus, she experienced that during her testing - to see if she really wanted to be Aes Sedai more than anything. **
Avatar:
This could be probable but remember that when you are being tested you are not suppose to remember anything about being Aes Sedai or even about the OP. Both Nyn and Egwene were able to channel. Sheriam explicityly says that you should not be able to channel and that you shouldn't even remember the OP. Unless Sheriam is DF I take this for a fact, so anything that you are thinking about before the testing should not make a difference.
**The point was... that quote in no way means Rand's hand is coming back **
Ozymandias:
I am not claiming that Rand's hand will be comming back I just made a supposition that the likelyhood of regenerating a hand is the same as restoring the link to the OP. This to me means that Rand could possibly regain his hand but not definately.
I am not making any assertions with my claims just suppositions meaning possibilities. :)
Tree Brother: 2006-09-07
**And finally, we've been told that what has been Healed cannot be Healed again. Rand's hand has been Healed as it is: a stump. Something else would have to happen to it to be Healed**
I disagree with this. It is quite possible that limbs, organs, etc can be regenerated with the OP (not healed, regenerated).
Yes, the severed end of Rand's arm was healed. But I don't see why a hand could not be regenerated. Just use the OP to encourage new growth.
If you can make skin reproduce and knit together, to heal wounds without scars, why not regenerate eyes, ears, hands, livers, or whatever?
Also, I think this could NOT be done with the old healing, because the amount of energy required would probably kill the patient. There may even be a ter'angreal that can aid with this type of healing.
All pure conjecture of course. But still, I don't see why it is necessarily impossible.
JakOShadows: 2006-09-07
***Rather than Egwene really being able to Heal anything, she just wanted to at that time - it was one of her most important concerns back then. And thus, she experienced that during her testing - to see if she really wanted to be Aes Sedai more than anything.***
I think Avator put his finger on it right there. A lot of things are possible in the mirror worlds, oodles an oodles of possibilities, and since she wanted to heal Rand at the time it guided her there. It has probably done the same for a lot of other people who have become accepted.
And as for healing the hand, I believe it isn't possible to recreate a hand that can be called his own hand. Now she may be able to make a prostetic hand of sorts with the one power, but the fact is the wound has already been healed. She would have to injure him again just to do that, I don't think she would do that given that we haven't seen any prior ability of healing in the books(in reality). It seems like a lot of people when coming up with ideas grasp at distant illogical possibilities, when I believe it should be based more on common sense and working with what we know and can prove. This theory in my opinion doesn't do that.
ScorpiOve: 2006-09-07
Rand might get his hand back in some way. Min has wiewed a severed hand and red hot iron around Elayne [TGH: 24, New Friends and Old Enemies, 305], and she has seen white hot iron and a bloody hand around Rand [TEOTW: 15, Strangers and Friends, 181].
This leads me to conclude that Elayne might somehow be related to something having to do with Rands hand. She might not heal it, but make some kind of Ter'angreal hand for him to wear, like Luke Skywalker (May the One Power be with you young Al'Thor).
To show that my theory is all but waterproof I will contradict it by saying that the white hot iron might be Balefire and the bloody hand might be Rand's hand with forsaken blood on them (metaphorically, as he's used Balefire).
Jumai: 2006-09-07
It's probably worth bringing up that in Egwene's second accepted test trip, Rand says he's holding off the madness but if he seizes Saidin it will overcome him. In KoD he is avoiding the source because "Lews Therin" can get control of it, which is basically the same thing. Random things in the test do seem to be true, if wildly out of context, and not just in Egwene's third.
Callandor: 2006-09-07
**Callandor, a huge part of why Egwene went to the Waste was due to the dream ter'angreal that was given to her by Verin. In TAR Egwene had her first encounter with a Wise One and was urged that if she wanted to learn she should go to the Waste. Rand of course was indirectly responsible for her decision because she wanted to help him but the inciting incident in the chain of events you describes was the dream ter'angreal and not necessarily Rand's Ta'vereness.**
So, you decided to explain to me the series of events told in the story that I already knew, then concede my ultimate point, but still maintain that I am somehow misrepresenting this someway if not being wrong?
Rand, Mat, and Perrin are ta'veren. Egwene is not. She's been in the company of ta'veren for a long time, however, and simply living in this world at this time is enough to be utterly effected by them. Stipulating that what has happened to Egwene is her choice is simply ridiculous. It's pure ta'veren influences and fate.
**I did not mention that Egwene was immune to Rand's Tavereness just that she had more liberty to move as she saw fit and not guided or tied to Rand as much as lets say Mat.**
Which is amounting to the same thing or nearly as much to make absolutely no difference, just by disguising it and try to pass it off as something else.
Rand is ta'veren. You can make a case for every single solitary event since the opening chapter of The Eye of the World is directly related to him and his actions. Mat and Perrin are further extentions of this; Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Min, Moiraine, Thom, etc. are even further cases of this.
**The method of healing both the Aiel's and Rand's hands were just to stop the blood from oozing out and to enclose the wound. However, if the healer focuses in guiding the regeneration of the cells in the hand they could possibly reconstitute a limb. All parts of the body are created of cells that heal the only thing is that the cells will have to be guided to recreate the original structure.**
You're saying the same process does two different things. You say Healing is regeneration -- fine. Let's use that. Why weren't the hands regrown? Healing was used -- both Nynaeve's form and the standard.
Yet it didn't work in either case.
You're saying that Healing does this process of regeneration because that is what Healing is -- regeneration. Yet you're saying that in this case, the Healing needs to be "guided" (as if we're to believe Nynaeve wasn't doing specifically that, or what I highly doubt you can argue wasn't that). If Healing is just rengeration, the hands should've regrown in both cases. Something must be different, since it worked in neither case.
It's pretty obvious what is: the hands were separated from the body (if not just destroyed). The body stopped at where the cut arm was.
**The healing of a severed channeler is different in the sense that the link between channeler and OP is not a living thing. The link is either connected or it's not. It can be bridged or cut but there is no deterioration so there can be no regeneration. The comparison to be is weak and the argument is not solid.**
Right -- versus just saying Healing is one thing that would include a successful regrowth of a hand, yet surprisingly we don't have that, and saying it for some reason requires something more.
wolfbrother10: 2006-09-09
**If you can make skin reproduce and knit together, to heal wounds without scars, why not regenerate eyes, ears, hands, livers, or whatever?**
My case in point!
**Also, I think this could NOT be done with the old healing, because the amount of energy required would probably kill the patient. There may even be a ter'angreal that can aid with this type of healing.**
This ties in with what ScorpiOve mentioned below. Or there could be a ter’angreal with this use in the stash that Elayne and Aviendha are looking after.
**A lot of things are possible in the mirror worlds, oodles an oodles of possibilities, and since she wanted to heal Rand at the time it guided her there.**
JakO this doesn’t explain anything for the simple fact that Egwene is not suppose to remember about channeling or be able to channel in the testing rings as Sheriam mentioned (I take at face value unless Sheriam is black which I don’t think).
**It seems like a lot of people when coming up with ideas grasp at distant illogical possibilities, when I believe it should be based more on common sense and working with what we know and can prove. This theory in my opinion doesn't do that.**
JakO everyone is entitled to their own opinion however, if you want to discredit the huge amount of foreshadowing found in Egwene testing then your reasoning is not sound IMO. I just decided to throw a way in which Egwene could possibly help Rand with something that no one else could (seen in all the rings). The healing aspect had more to do with her being Nynaeve’s apprentice and her saying that she could Heal in two out of three rings (and never saying that she couldn’t in the “real worldâ€). I think my reasoning was sound and I think my logic professor would agree ;).
**This leads me to conclude that Elayne might somehow be related to something having to do with Rands hand. She might not heal it, but make some kind of Ter'angreal hand for him to wear, like Luke Skywalker (May the One Power be with you young Al'Thor).**
This is an interesting point ScorpiOve. I neglected Elayne making some kind of ter’angreal to aid Rand or the regeneration of his hand. Thanks for your insight.
**It's probably worth bringing up that in Egwene's second accepted test trip, Rand says he's holding off the madness but if he seizes Saidin it will overcome him. In KoD he is avoiding the source because "Lews Therin" can get control of it, which is basically the same thing. Random things in the test do seem to be true, if wildly out of context, and not just in Egwene's third.**
I listed the other things that I found were foreshadowed by the testing rings in the respective list.
**So, you decided to explain to me the series of events told in the story that I already knew…**
Callandor isn’t that what YOU usually do? I am not arguing that Egwene is immune to Rand’s ta’vareness as I mentioned before. We have been told many times that a ta’varen as powerful as Rand moves the entire pattern at times. What I was getting at in my original post was that Egwene seems to have gone through the path of least resistance in the age lace. We see that many characters seem to want to do things and just happen to do other things. In the case of Mat we see that he realizes that his ta’vareness is stopping him from actually acting in some cases. Egwene as far as I know always seems to be where she wants to be with the exception of her capture by the Seanchan (which according to you deals with Rand, though I am not sure) and now her imprisonment in the Tower. That was my point…
**Stipulating that what has happened to Egwene is her choice is simply ridiculous. It's pure ta'veren influences and fate.**
The WOT runs time in a circular pattern blah, blah, blah. This does not mean that there aren’t any decisions that work outside of fate. Fate to me means that you end up somewhere however, you can have a say as to how pleasant (or unpleasant) your trip to your destination is.
**You're saying the same process does two different things. You say Healing is regeneration -- fine. Let's use that. Why weren't the hands regrown? Healing was used -- both Nynaeve's form and the standard.**
When someone is healed the tissue is regenerated to the original form. Yes I agree that if the severed limb was in contact with the body (at the site of origin) then the tissue would be regenerated. There are cases in which this does not work the scars on Rand’s body being one of the main one’s the other being old wounds in general.
Rand’s scars are a little different in that they were produced through mystical circumstances (Fain’s dagger and Ishy’s spear). We see that our two main healers haven’t come up with the way to heal that.
However the old scars relate to what I was talking about with the cells being guided to the original form in the case of a scab there is a change in the original form so the job is half-assed (IMO). The yellows claim to be the best healers and one usually delve the body to see what is injured and perform the healing, but once the target is located I think the healing weave is done and the released. My implication is that perhaps if the healing was a continuous action that was directed at each individual tissue to re-constitute (definition of regeneration) the tissue a limb could be recreated. This is simply my take; if you don’t agree then we could just agree to disagree, if that is possible for you ;).
As far as the categorization of Healing and regeneration, regeneration is Healing. All weaves that regenerate the skin are called Healing weaves which is why I classify them as such. Healing can be seen as Medicine in general in that it can be classified into subgroups. If you want to argue that all Healing is not regeneration then do however, we don’t have any proof that it is not because it is possible our Healers have not thought to continually heal the tissue for it to re-constitute completely instead of just forming a scab which stops the regeneration process.
**Right -- versus just saying Healing is one thing that would include a successful regrowth of a hand, yet surprisingly we don't have that, and saying it for some reason requires something more.**
Callandor, I assume that a driver’s license means that the owner of such knows how to drive but a lot of times we don’t have that either. The true driver is developed through experience let us say that Nynaeve’s form of healing is still in its primitive stage. As mentioned in my original post one of the Kin (Sumeko, I believe) criticized Nynaeve’s form of healing as rough (when the gholam attacked in Ebou Dar) so maybe there is a way to be more precise in healing and this is what I mean by guiding the healing weave.
Ozymandias: 2006-09-09
why are we even equating Healing to regeneration? Its a ridiculous concept from the outset because all normal Healing and true regeneration of limbs have in common is the name; regenerating cells or whatever. There is a distinct difference between regrowing somatic cells; mostly just replicating existing cells which then will go where they need to go, directed by the body. You might view it as saying the Healer uses the Power to speed up the healing and regeneration process; its merely an accelerated version of what might happen anyways. How often do you see a hand regrow? Technically, a Healer would have to "manually" reconnect ligaments, joints, and create specialized cells. I mean, scientifically the entire concept of Healing is difficult to grasp.
The point is equating the regeneration of some generic somatic cells in someone's skin or even flesh is one thing. Actually reconnecting a hand... impossible. The minute adjustments needed to connec every vein and ligament would be beyond mortal ability to oversee. And if you use a normal type of healing and merely regrow somatic cells... the stump will just continue to be a stump. The only time you'll find formative development of limbs and specialized body parts is in the womb, a blastula and whatnot. It just couldn't work, especially not now that his hand has been healed over. The veins and arteries have probably shut themselves by now
ScorpiOve: 2006-09-10
Oh, I have just finished Fires of Heaven again, and there seems to be another way to get Rands hand back:
When Rand is pursuing Rhavin in TAR Rhavin is using the reality warping powers of TAR to almost disspell Rand altogether, or turn him to an animal.
Moghedin claims to be able to alter someones dreamself forever, or atleast until she lets them turn back.
So, if Rand enters TAR entirely, as he's done some times before and a strong dreamwalker go there with him, then maybe the dreamwalker would be able to will him back his hand permanently, since he is there in both body and soul. Maybe even the wound at his side would be able to be removed that way (though I doubt that)?
But then again maybe the dreamwalkers are to weak to do such things, even Egwene (if the Wise Ones would refuse). There is also the constant "I don't want anything to do with Aes Sedai and Wise Ones using the power on me, because I like to suffer and feel sorry for myself"-philosopy that every major character seem to heed to.
Callandor: 2006-09-10
**I am not arguing that Egwene is immune to Rand’s ta’vareness as I mentioned before.**
Right.
**Egwene as far as I know always seems to be where she wants to be with the exception of her capture by the Seanchan (which according to you deals with Rand, though I am not sure) and now her imprisonment in the Tower. That was my point…**
Exactly... so, Egwene, unlike everyone else it seems, is where she wants to be? Almost as if everyone else is being effected, and Egwene is not...
Arguing in anyway that Egwene is somehow less effected, or however else you wish to term this, by Rand's ta'vereness is simply nonsense. Egwene is a thread in the Pattern -- she's effected just as much as anyone else, and arguably more since she's spent a lot of time around Rand (not so much now, but overall).
**The WOT runs time in a circular pattern blah, blah, blah. This does not mean that there aren’t any decisions that work outside of fate. Fate to me means that you end up somewhere however, you can have a say as to how pleasant (or unpleasant) your trip to your destination is.**
I love it.
1. There are decisions that are outside of fate -- they're free choices and ultimately amount to about the spaces between each of these words that I've been typing.
2. You concede that Egwene is just as effected by fate, and therefore just as effected by ta'vereness, as anyone else, yet try to maintain that she has somehow been less effected or that her choices in her fate were all completely in her control.
It's this simple: Egwene was undoubtedly fated to be Amyrlin -- it's the obvious explanation for Min's viewing about her. All the decisions that amounted in her becoming Amyrlin, are therefore fated or extremely controlled as well. Egwene doesn't have some ability just to herself that allows her to simply have free and complete choice to do whatever she wants. The Wheel still gets it's way 100% with her as it does with Rand, Mat, Perrin, and anyone else.
**When someone is healed the tissue is regenerated to the original form. Yes I agree that if the severed limb was in contact with the body (at the site of origin) then the tissue would be regenerated.**
Right there is a contradiction. If Healing returns to the original form, Rand's hand should have come back. It didn't. Hence why Healing as just "regeneration" isn't the right way to describe it.
And if you're agreeing it takes for Rand's hand to actually be used in the Healing, one of your conclusions about what Egwene would do is simply not possible -- Rand's hand is gone.
**My implication is that perhaps if the healing was a continuous action that was directed at each individual tissue to re-constitute (definition of regeneration) the tissue a limb could be recreated.**
Again, it was Nynaeve that did the Healing -- one of the few people with the ability to actually Heal specific injuries, not just the entire person.
** If you want to argue that all Healing is not regeneration then do however, we don’t have any proof that it is not because it is possible our Healers have not thought to continually heal the tissue for it to re-constitute completely instead of just forming a scab which stops the regeneration process.**
You're saying that because we haven't seen it occur, we can't say that you have no basis for calling it blankly "regeneration." You're essentially stating that you have no evidence for your claim, but it's right anyway.
**The true driver is developed through experience let us say that Nynaeve’s form of healing is still in its primitive stage. As mentioned in my original post one of the Kin (Sumeko, I believe) criticized Nynaeve’s form of healing as rough (when the gholam attacked in Ebou Dar) so maybe there is a way to be more precise in healing and this is what I mean by guiding the healing weave.**
So, it's Nynaeve's experience that somehow makes my comparison weak, as you claim it is? Nynaeve, who in her apparently low experience in your view, successfully did the otherside of the comparison. She's experienced enough for one, but not enough for the other, and you're saying that this is why my comparison is weak?
PillowFriends: 2006-09-11
**Stipulating that what has happened to Egwene is her choice is simply ridiculous. It's pure ta'veren influences and fate.**
Callandor, you make it sound as if she has no free will at all. Even someone who is not ta'veren can affect the Pattern.
TEOW chap 36 pg 466
"…You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. there is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply wont accept a big change, no matter how hard you try…"
JakOShadows: 2006-09-11
***JakO this doesn’t explain anything for the simple fact that Egwene is not suppose to remember about channeling or be able to channel in the testing rings as Sheriam mentioned (I take at face value unless Sheriam is black which I don’t think).***
She could have just been mistaken you know. If Egwene's destiny was to become the Amrylin seat, and that involves channeling, than maybe no matter what had happened to her before she would still remember being able to channel in the ter'angreal. And hasn't Egwene always been interested in Rand for a while. This could contribute to the fact that she always wanted to try and help Rand in some way in most variations of the pattern. I will agree that her recent thoughts about wanting to help him with his channeling may not of come into affect. But the ter'angreal is supposed to be showing her what her fears currently are, even if what she thinks is directly input into it, where she will most likely be guided by the pattern will still be used. If in most mirror worlds she wants to help Rand out, even if Sheiram says in can't involve channeling, the ter'angreal will still choose that situation. So to be honest, I think what Sheiram says doesn't have much affect on what the ter'angreal does. In fact, given that both Egwene and Nynaeve remembered channeling, it can cast doubts on whether Sheiraim is right or not. I'm not saying she purposely lied, but maybe they have just never run into that situation before. You also got to remember that they are uniquely tied to Rand's thread at the time, and this could be a result too. The main thing is, just because the ter'angreal shows Egwene with the talent of healing, doesn't mean she has it now or could definitely learn it. That is just too circumstantial, even considering how unique a situation it was.
Callandor: 2006-09-11
**Callandor, you make it sound as if she has no free will at all. Even someone who is not ta'veren can affect the Pattern.**
1. Well, I never said no one has free will -- I specifically pointed out that there are instances that are beyond fate. It's just that they're so miniscule in importance to amount to essentially nothing in and of themselves. It's the totality of them over a long amount of time that is what amounts to big changes -- but if it comes to choice vs. fate, fate wins out every single time.
2. Your second comment doesn't even impact this at all. I never said Egwene doesn't effect the Pattern -- just that she's not immune from other effects, such as ta'veren effect.
Tree Brother: 2006-09-13
*During Egwene’s testing some might tend to focus on the interaction between the dream ter’angreal and the testing rings*
*She could have just been mistaken you know. If Egwene's destiny was to become the Amrylin seat, and that involves channeling, than maybe no matter what had happened to her before she would still remember being able to channel in the ter'angreal.*
The Test ter'angreal works by wiping your memory, and replacing with alternative ones. And the person guiding the testing (Sheriam in this case) possibly applies some sort of ward (or whatever) so that the person being tested will remember to exit via. the doorway.
I think the presense of the Dream ter'angreal is what caused the test one to act differently (allowing memories to be retained).
The "resonance" may have been the influence of the dream ter'angreal, forcing truer access to the world of dreams.
Although, I suppose it is also possible that the ter'angreal works differently on a Dreamer...
PillowFriends: 2006-09-13
"" **She has done many things out of her own resolve without much interruption from outside sources unlike our three Ta’veren who usually have been guided or even Nynaeve who has decided to go along to avenge herself from Moiraine and to protect these children whose diapers she changed.**
I would answer that with a single word: hardly.
You're crediting Egwene's own resolve, when really it's fate and ta'veren influences.""
**I specifically pointed out that there are instances that are beyond fate. It's just that they're so miniscule in importance to amount to essentially nothing in and of themselves.**
Callandor, the only way your two quotes together make sense is if YOU are judging what's "miniscule in importance", and what's not. Surely you can have your opinion, but that does nothing to refute, or support, the theory.
JakOShadows: 2006-09-13
Treebrother:
***The Test ter'angreal works by wiping your memory, and replacing with alternative ones. And the person guiding the testing (Sheriam in this case) possibly applies some sort of ward (or whatever) so that the person being tested will remember to exit via. the doorway.***
That it is an interesting idea. We don't know exactly what the AS have to do to work the ter'angreal do we. We just know the result, that it forces you to confront fears based on your past, present and future. So for all we know they may just channel a weave of spirit in.
But I think we can rule out the fact that they have an active and continuous input into the ter'angreal about what the dream should be, based on what happened in Nynaeve's and Egwene's accepted tests. And, in my opinion, that is enough to rule out the fact that Sheiraim can say for sure that it is impossible to channel in the ter'angreal. Unless she was personally controlling it or help to make it, she doesn't know for sure that you can't channel in there. It is just a theory based on their discoveries.
Nice point though, we have not had a pov where we personally watched someone conducting or helping to conduct the accepted test, so how do we know how much control they have? So their beliefs on how it works may not be as solid as we think they are.
Callandor: 2006-09-13
**Callandor, the only way your two quotes together make sense is if YOU are judging what's "miniscule in importance", and what's not. Surely you can have your opinion, but that does nothing to refute, or support, the theory.**
Right....
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern
"Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"
Rand nodded. "I could live on the farm or in Emond's Field, and that would be a small change. If I wanted to be a king, though . . . ." He laughed, and Loial gave a grin that almost split his face in two. His teeth were white, and as broad as chisels.**
Rand of course is misguided in thinking living on a farm in the Two Rivers is a small change for him.
What is fated in the world are the big things -- what the Wheel sets will only happen the exact way it wants. Auxillary events are needed to happen to make sure those big events happen exactly as they wanted. And so on and so on. Only with the miniscule things -- the things that are so small to amount to no true difference in the plan for now -- is there free will. With other events, it's the Wheel's way every single time and not a damn thing to be done about it.
Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others. But that doesn't mean it was any less fated or controlled than anyone else. Perrin accepted his fate relatively easily compared to Rand, let alone Mat. Yet Perrin's fate is just as controlled as both (Rand simply to a higher degree if there is any since so much of his life has to occur specific ways).
So, no, it's not me stipulating what is small or not. Jordan is doing that.
ScorpiOve: 2006-09-14
There are so many well placed coincidences around Egwene and Nyneve that I'm starting to think they too might be Ta'veren. Weaker than Mat and Perrin, but still...
Tree Brother: 2006-09-14
*** Unless she was personally controlling it or help to make it, she doesn't know for sure that you can't channel in there. It is just a theory based on their discoveries. ***
Maybe I am remembering a different ter'angreal. Isn't this the one that said bad things happened if you warded the person entering so she would remember who she was, and that she could channel?
PillowFriends: 2006-09-14
**We have discovered that the ter’angreal used for the testing of novices in the white tower shows reflections of possible outcomes in Randland or in other dimensions. The people themselves are the same but the decisions made are different which lead to different even parallel lives.**
Please, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but ter’angreal are products of the One Power. The One Power is one of the three known things outside the influence of the Wheel (the other two being the Creator and the Dark One). Therefore, anything Egwene sees or learns through any ter’angreal could not be known or influenced by the Wheel. Thus, any decisions Egwene makes on information she receives from any ter’angreal are of her own doing and may actually go against the Wheel’s grand vision. This could also be said for ANY character who receives information directly from a ter’angreal.
JakOShadows: 2006-09-15
***What is fated in the world are the big things -- what the Wheel sets will only happen the exact way it wants. Auxillary events are needed to happen to make sure those big events happen exactly as they wanted. And so on and so on. Only with the miniscule things -- the things that are so small to amount to no true difference in the plan for now -- is there free will. With other events, it's the Wheel's way every single time and not a damn thing to be done about it.***
I agree that the pattern does assert a lot of control over events. But I do think that in Egwene's life, she does have a lot more control. For the most part, however she reunites the tower and becomes Amyrlin, the pattern would probably have accepted. So while she can't change her fate, she is not as controlled by the pattern as Rand, Mat and Perrin are either. It may have been easier for her to accept her fate because there was more wiggle room involved in how she could get there. That's the point the others are trying to make. They just aren't emphasizing that the pattern is still controlling her very strongly.
Anubis: 2006-09-15
**So, no, it's not me stipulating what is small or not. Jordan is doing that.**
Who is to say how much is the pattern and how much is Egwenes free will? The pattern can only gather the players and set the stage, they must each interact as they will.
Anubis: 2006-09-15
**Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others. But that doesn't mean it was any less fated or controlled than anyone else. Perrin accepted his fate relatively easily compared to Rand, let alone Mat. Yet Perrin's fate is just as controlled as both (Rand simply to a higher degree if there is any since so much of his life has to occur specific ways).**
How does one control Saidar?
Anubis: 2006-09-15
**2. The Borderlands are already set up basically for the Last Battle -- no one is questioning that.**
I'm sorry, what? All we have is queen whats her face telling that other guy that what she left behind will hold short of the Trolloc Wars coming again. That doesn't strike me as being prepared for the last battle, that strikes me as sitting there with your pants down around your ankles waiting for the Trolloc explosion.
JakOShadows: 2006-09-16
Pillowfriends:
yes, the one power is outside the pattern, but the ter'angreal is still within the pattern if people can enter somehow. So even though it transports you to mirror worlds, as long as there is still some link to the real world, the pattern will still have some touch. Just maybe not drastic effects.
Callandor: 2006-09-16
**There are so many well placed coincidences around Egwene and Nyneve that I'm starting to think they too might be Ta'veren. Weaker than Mat and Perrin, but still...**
They are not ta'veren. Egwene and Nynaeve have both been around Siuan after she was Healed, and she can see ta'veren. Didn't see anything around either. Both have been around Nicola who can see ta'veren. Didn't see anything around either. Egwene and Nynaeve have both been around Logain who can see ta'veren. Didn't see anything around either.
That, and Jordan's own words that they are not.
**They just aren't emphasizing that the pattern is still controlling her very strongly.**
So, the entire point here is:
Egwene's accepted her fate, but her fate is still controlled by the Wheel.
Just happens to be exactly the point I've been driving at.
**Who is to say how much is the pattern and how much is Egwenes free will? The pattern can only gather the players and set the stage, they must each interact as they will.**
What the heck are you talking about, Anubis? The Wheel isn't going to "set the stage" for a major event, and then leave what happens there completey up to the person. It's a fated event -- it will happen exactly as the Wheel wants. Human choice be damned, that doesn't factor in to those situations, and it wouldn't apply to any auxillary events necessary to those fated events.
**How does one control Saidar?**
Ooooo, Moiraine's answer. And what bearing does submitting to fate have on this at all? It's still fated. It will still happen as the Wheel sees fit, every time, whether you accept it or not.
And your last comment Anubis seems to be on the wrong thread.
wolfbrother10: 2006-09-17
** [normal healing is] mostly just replicating existing cells which then will go where they need to go, directed by the body.**
Ozymandias:
Your comment about Healing being “replicating existing cells which then go where they need to go†was my definition for Healing. If you look up the definition for regeneration you would see that the definition uses the word reconstitution which is basically what is being said. As you mentioned it appears that these cells are directed by the body and I come up with my conclusion based on the re-growth being controlled [directed] by the Healer and not the body.
** You might view it as saying the Healer uses the Power to speed up the healing and regeneration process; it’s merely an accelerated version of what might happen anyways.**
Ozymandias:
All I have to say is HARDLY. When someone is Healed there are no scars (unless the wounds are old). This in no way would be what might happen anyway. The Healer uses the OP to create cells that then reorganize into the lost skin, organ, and bones by the body. It seems to me that healing is exhaustive in that they use a lot of the OP not that they are guiding Healing weaves so this is why I attribute the reorganization or reconstitution to the body. What I say is that if healing can heal part of the whole (i.e. skin, muscle, bones, nerves, etc) why can’t it recreate the whole if the channelers become the guide of the flows to reconstruct the limb.
**The minute adjustments needed to connect every vein and ligament would be beyond mortal ability to oversee.**
When an arrow is plunged into your shoulder and taken out there is flesh, bone, ligaments, nerves, arteries and veins that have been damaged. However, when someone is Healed all of these minute adjustments are made. I don’t see how this can be the case in one condition and not in another.
** So, if Rand enters TAR entirely, as he's done some times before and a strong dreamwalker go there with him, then maybe the dreamwalker would be able to will him back his hand permanently, since he is there in both body and soul. Maybe even the wound at his side would be able to be removed that way (though I doubt that)?**
ScorpiOve:
This is an interesting point. I had completely forgot about Moggy’s comment in TAR. After all using the information that Moggy said was how Nyn was able to capture her in the real world. Something as simple as forkroot in TAR would still effect the body in the real world.
[My response] Egwene as far as I know always seems to be where she wants to be with the exception of her capture by the Seanchan (which according to you deals with Rand, though I am not sure) and now her imprisonment in the Tower. That was my point…[My response]
[Callandor response] **Exactly... so, Egwene, unlike everyone else it seems, is where she wants to be? Almost as if everyone else is being effected, and Egwene is not...**
[PillowFriends response]**Callandor, the only way your two quotes together make sense is if YOU are judging what's "miniscule in importance", and what's not. Surely you can have your opinion, but that does nothing to refute, or support, the theory.**
[Callandor response]**Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others.**
Callandor:
Your two responses make me a little confused. It seems as if you are taking both sides of the argument. In your response you basically said what I responded to you. I said Egwene seems to be where she wants to be and you said that she accepts her fate easier; to me the same point is being argued.
It seems that facts are only true when YOU say they are. :)
** So, it's Nynaeve's experience that somehow makes my comparison weak, as you claim it is? Nynaeve, who in her apparently low experience in your view, successfully did the otherside of the comparison. She's experienced enough for one, but not enough for the other, and you're saying that this is why my comparison is weak?**
Callandor a whole Ajah is dedicated to healers. And these Healers are thought to be the best yet someone who wasn’t even Aes Sedai was outdoing them. What makes you think that the standards that are made (Nyn being the best female healer) are not to be changed. We see that the Kin in general might outdo the Yellow Ajah when it comes to healers but they have limited themselves due to fear of the White Tower. Whose to say that someone can’t teach something to Nyn. As I mention constantly Sumeko criticized her form of Healing as rough meaning that she thinks she’s better. Whether or not that’s true who knows. As of yet, we haven’t had a Heal-off :)
wolfbrother10: 2006-09-17
**Maybe I am remembering a different ter'angreal. Isn't this the one that said bad things happened if you warded the person entering so she would remember who she was, and that she could channel?**
Tree Brother:
Yes you are right. The women who were warded were burnt out or never came out of the ter’angreal.
Callandor, do you remember this criticism?
**That is why Nynaeve can sense Aginor's channeling naturally -- an impossibility.**
RJ would say that this is a fallacy! In KoD, Call to a Sitting, we see that Nacelle has developed a weave that allows a female channeler to sense a man channeling and sense the direction of his weave but not what is being done. (pgs 495-96 Hardcover)
Nynaeve in her testing was able to sense Aginor’s channeling but she was holding onto the OP. This could have been another foreshadowing in the testing ter’angreal. Who would have thought that something impossible could become possible in a fantasy book! Hehe
Darkshadow: 2006-09-18
You seem to forget that Egwene, Elayne, and Min are all important factors to Rand, the most Ta'veren individual in Randland. In TGH, before the battle in the sky, Rand kept saying that if any of them died, his life would not be complete. That seems to be as if Egwene has a somewhat more controlled fate than most other women associated w/ Rand.
Also, it can't be coincidental that two women of considerable strength and potential come out of the same village as the three Ta'verens and do all of the things they have done in 11 books. I believe most people are underestimating them, something Jordan has not done in all of his books, putting females in higher status and importance than most books.
PillowFriends: 2006-09-18
**Pillowfriends:
yes, the one power is outside the pattern, but the ter'angreal is still within the pattern if people can enter somehow. So even though it transports you to mirror worlds, as long as there is still some link to the real world, the pattern will still have some touch. Just maybe not drastic effects.**
That may be, but it also may not be. I suppose one good speculative comment deserves another. :) My opinion is that, if one enters a ter'angreal and the environment is such that it's a 100% manisfistation of the One Power, then what happens in that ter'angreal is shielded, or free, from the Wheel's influence. I agree that the ter'angreal itself is in the Pattern. If one toppled over and landed on someone, that would be part of the Pattern. But, what goes on inside, I'd have to say that's dependant on the nature of the ter'angreal, whether or not it's a part of the Pattern.
Anubis: 2006-09-18
**yes, the one power is outside the pattern, but the ter'angreal is still within the pattern if people can enter somehow. So even though it transports you to mirror worlds, as long as there is still some link to the real world, the pattern will still have some touch. Just maybe not drastic effects.**
Well, you make a convincing argument that the Pattern/Wheel would have influence over a person in a mirror world, but what about parrallel worlds? Would that thread be controlled by the wheel from their native world, or would the wheel from the parrallel world step in and take over? Would the transition be immediate, or more fluid?
JakOShadows: 2006-09-20
Anubis:
Yes, while in the mirror worlds the pattern affect you that way. But I was thinking about the link created through the ter'angreal. Since there is a way you can be drawn back, I would imagine that the ter'angreal creates a link somehow. And that was the influence that I was talking about. But along your line, yes, in a mirror world the pattern would have an affect on a character, but not in a parallel world if there was no direct link to the original world. But then again, I think for the ter'angreal to do what it does, it can't use parallel worlds because they are nothing like ours. It can only use mirror worlds, since it puts you in alternative versions of your life. So while you are correct, it can't be related to the ter'angreal in question.
Pillowfriends:
The only problem with you idea is that there has to be a tangible link to reality for people to come back. How else do people keep getting the message to come back, if the ter'angreal isn't influencing them at all? It wouldn't work that way it does if it just randomly dumped the character in the world, because then how would you come back? So even if it is a small influence, it is still there and therefore allows the pattern to control it. Along that line, how does the ter'angreal know what to use the fears without refering to reality? I think this would have to be another link that is created somehow. I don't know how much is directed by the AS and how much by the ter'angreal, but it seems like it can't be done with out some sort of link. It just isn't logically possible.
Callandor: 2006-09-20
**Your two responses make me a little confused. It seems as if you are taking both sides of the argument. In your response you basically said what I responded to you. I said Egwene seems to be where she wants to be and you said that she accepts her fate easier; to me the same point is being argued.
It seems that facts are only true when YOU say they are. :)**
Well, I had very nice and long post detailing all the steps of how completely wrong you are in the ascribing of my words and your words and the mixing of stances -- but for some reason a damn error came up and it got lost. What crap.
But anyway, it amounts to really three points:
1. I've been maintaining the exact same point throughout this entire thread from my very first post in this thread, from my second sentence in it:
**You're crediting Egwene's own resolve, when really it's fate and ta'veren influences.**
2. You're trying to detail the comments here as if to detail the positions I've taken, when you do not go back far enough (it again goes back the very first post of mine, and your original words), as well you're repeated examples of taking my words out of context. The three main examples:
My words:
**So, you decided to explain to me the series of events told in the story that I already knew, then concede my ultimate point, but still maintain that I am somehow misrepresenting this someway if not being wrong?**
Then your quoting of my words:
**So, you decided to explain to me the series of events told in the story that I already knew...**
My words:
**Exactly... so, Egwene, unlike everyone else it seems, is where she wants to be? Almost as if everyone else is being effected, and Egwene is not...
Arguing in anyway that Egwene is somehow less effected, or however else you wish to term this, by Rand's ta'vereness is simply nonsense. Egwene is a thread in the Pattern -- she's effected just as much as anyone else, and arguably more since she's spent a lot of time around Rand (not so much now, but overall).**
Your quoting of my words:
**Exactly... so, Egwene, unlike everyone else it seems, is where she wants to be? Almost as if everyone else is being effected, and Egwene is not...**
My words:
**Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others. But that doesn't mean it was any less fated or controlled than anyone else. Perrin accepted his fate relatively easily compared to Rand, let alone Mat. Yet Perrin's fate is just as controlled as both (Rand simply to a higher degree if there is any since so much of his life has to occur specific ways).**
Your quoting of my words:
**Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others.**
So, you see how if you're not going to quote my words in full, and take them out of context, it can very easily be made as if I am saying something completely different from what I am actually saying.
3. You've changed your position in this thread already, unless you simply wish to amend your original words to what you are saying now -- and then there is absolutely no conflict since you're saying my point anyway.
Your original words that started all this:
**She has done many things out of her own resolve without much interruption from outside sources unlike our three Ta’veren who usually have been guided or even Nynaeve who has decided to go along to avenge herself from Moiraine and to protect these children whose diapers she changed.**
I don't see anyway that anyone can look at that and read it as: Egwene has more choice in her life than Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve. That is how she can do things of "her own resolve" and without "interruption" of "outside sources" -- unlike Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve who have been "guided." There seems to be a clear divison for you. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve -- subject to fate. Egwene -- embodiment of free will, practically.
Your later statements which either contradict parts of your own original words, or continue to get murkier and murkier:
**Callandor, a huge part of why Egwene went to the Waste was due to the dream ter'angreal that was given to her by Verin. In TAR Egwene had her first encounter with a Wise One and was urged that if she wanted to learn she should go to the Waste. Rand of course was indirectly responsible for her decision because she wanted to help him but the inciting incident in the chain of events you describes was the dream ter'angreal and not necessarily Rand's Ta'vereness.**
Egwene is subject to the influence of a ta'veren -- unlike before where she was not subject to "interruptions" and not "guided" like Rand and the rest.
**I did not mention that Egwene was immune to Rand's Tavereness just that she had more liberty to move as she saw fit and not guided or tied to Rand as much as lets say Mat.**
To which I said: "Which is amounting to the same thing or nearly as much to make absolutely no difference, just by disguising it and try to pass it off as something else."
**I am not arguing that Egwene is immune to Rand’s ta’vareness as I mentioned before. We have been told many times that a ta’varen as powerful as Rand moves the entire pattern at times. What I was getting at in my original post was that Egwene seems to have gone through the path of least resistance in the age lace.**
If Egwene is not immune to ta'veren influences, she's subject to them as well as fate, just like Rand, Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, and anyone else inside and of the Pattern -- which makes the entire notion of saying she's not been "guided" like they have ridiculous. You seem to have changed your position from your original words, which is perfectly fine. But....
**Egwene as far as I know always seems to be where she wants to be with the exception of her capture by the Seanchan (which according to you deals with Rand, though I am not sure) and now her imprisonment in the Tower. That was my point...**
Then you say this, which again can only truly be read as: Egwene can be where she wants to be. Egwene can choose where she wants to be. Egwene has more choice than Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve. Egwene has more free will, and is not subject to fate or ta'veren influences, like they are. Which is just a reaffirmation of you original words. And finally your most recent addition to this:
**I said Egwene seems to be where she wants to be and you said that she accepts her fate easier; to me the same point is being argued.**
Where you again assert that Egwene seems to have more choice and free will in her decisions than anyone else.
As well, it is not the same point, as I have pointed out previously as well (and that I know you read, or at least part of it since you only quoted part):
**Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others. But that doesn't mean it was any less fated or controlled than anyone else. Perrin accepted his fate relatively easily compared to Rand, let alone Mat. Yet Perrin's fate is just as controlled as both (Rand simply to a higher degree if there is any since so much of his life has to occur specific ways).**
So, do you get this point? Mat fought tooth and nail against his fate for most of the series -- it was still fated. Rand and Perrin accepted their fates before Mat did -- both of their lives were still fated. Egwene may have accepted her fate easily -- but it was still fated. Her "resolve" playing into this or not being "guided" is simply false.
**Callandor, do you remember this criticism?
**That is why Nynaeve can sense Aginor's channeling naturally -- an impossibility.**
RJ would say that this is a fallacy! In KoD, Call to a Sitting, we see that Nacelle has developed a weave that allows a female channeler to sense a man channeling and sense the direction of his weave but not what is being done. (pgs 495-96 Hardcover)
Nynaeve in her testing was able to sense Aginor’s channeling but she was holding onto the OP. This could have been another foreshadowing in the testing ter’angreal. Who would have thought that something impossible could become possible in a fantasy book! Hehe**
Bringing up that a weave can detect male channeling doesn't change the fact that in Nynaeve's ter'angreal test, she could do it naturally (IE: just standing there, doing absolutely nothing, she could just detect male channeling, without aid of ter'angreal, weaves, or anything else).
Male channelers can sense saidar naturally -- with nothing else needed to be done. Female channelers cannnot naturally sense saidin. It's an impossibility.
vardene: 2006-09-23
unfortunately, i'm not entirely sure what stand wolbrother is taking on egwene's talents. if he's trying to infer that egwene did everything on her own strength of will alone without input of the pattern, i'd say plainly ridiculous. But if the issue is that she has multiple talents and/or is more talented than nnyv at healing,that's a different matter altogether and not quite right.
First i must agree with Callandor that egwene is affected like everyone else by the influence of taveren and has been quite accepting of her lot. she has been the closest person to rand and the other three taveren and nowhere in the books did she once complain.Plus she had the benefit of three wise ones, sheriam's entire council, a former amyrlin and keeper swearing to her (all in ACoS)and never blinked or slowed down. it can only be taveren or amount of willpower or talent in the OP would bring aes sedai or wise ones to swear to an accepted whose bottom they still remember paddling. perrin saw the same thing in the 2rivers and became quite squirmish.
As for a healing talent, an aes sedai once commented(i dont remember who or where)that nnanevye must have half the talents. perhaps nnanevye had a talent that allows her to pick up talents but certainly not egwene. first, sheriam made clear that the first testing deals with things that have been left behind.for egwene, this turned out to be the idea of marrying rand and following in nnanevye footsteps as wisdom/healer.Secondly the wise ones taught egwene above all focus and concentration.Amys promised to switch her(or send her away, dont have the book right now)if she didnot recall every single word.That level of concentration would help her remember weaves easily and make mistakes less likely in dealing with people, in fact it makes for a strong character much like cadsuane. so rather than a talent for healing, she might just be good at whatever she does because she puts her ,mind to it. Even those that saw nnanevye's healing immediately felt they could do better. so she might heal better than nnanevye but not cos of any talent unless the talent is a strength of character.
Anubis: 2006-09-24
I ask again. How does one control Saidar?
How does one control that which can not be controlled?
Egwene has more control over her destiny than Rand and Mat simply because she surrenders to it and does not fight it. I'm thinking that is the only point worth making in this thread, and the fact that after several rounds of heated debate you two havent stumbeled onto that concept saddens me.
Ieyasu: 2006-09-25
Callandor:
**And finally, we've been told that what has been Healed cannot be Healed again. Rand's hand has been Healed as it is: a stump. Something else would have to happen to it to be Healed (like the idea of Siuan and Leane being stilled again just to be Healed again).**
What are you supporting this statement with?
Do you have any back up? Please provide it if so.
IIRC Sammael took wound from LTT in the war of power in which he was healed and purposely left a scar as a reminder.
Was it not Graendal who reminded him that he could still have that scar removed? Didn’t Sammael then state he would do so after he paid LTT back for that scar?
Wouldn’t this be a rather difficult thing to do if you can’t heal what’s already been healed?
I believe whatever you are basing this misguided belief on must be ignorant. Probably some 3rd ager whom just doesn’t have sufficient knowledge to make such a claim, neh?
Prince of Ravens: 2006-09-28
Anubis:
** Egwene has more control over her destiny than Rand and Mat simply because she surrenders to it and does not fight it. **
Hello?
Isn't Egwene still the one who thinks she has to find a way to control Rand, while Rand tries to move along with the Pattern? Rand even told Mat that doing so allows him more free will in the small things ;-)
And Mat has come to the same conclusion too by now I think ...
Callandor: 2006-09-28
**How does one control that which can not be controlled?
Egwene has more control over her destiny than Rand and Mat simply because she surrenders to it and does not fight it. I'm thinking that is the only point worth making in this thread, and the fact that after several rounds of heated debate you two havent stumbeled onto that concept saddens me.**
Because what you propose to be the answer is a point of irrelevance. Egwene does not have more control over her destiny than anyone else -- that is why it is destiny. Even if she accepted it easier than anyone else, yippie skippie -- her fate is still fated, and will come about the exact way the Wheel wants whether or not she accepts her fate or not. The Wheel always gets its way, and trying to hide behind this by saying "Well, Egwene surrendered." is just a gross misunderstanding of the point of this argument. The only truly sad part is that people keep pointing to this as if it changes anything from Egwene's fate still being just that: fated.
**What are you supporting this statement with?
Do you have any back up? Please provide it if so.**
Sure:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again
"I knew it!" Nynaeve flung her spoon down on the tray. "I knew you had some reason for this! Well, I'm too tired to channel, and it wouldn't matter if I wasn't. You can't Heal what has been Healed. You get out of here, and take your vile-tasting soup with you!" Less than half the vile-tasting soup remained, and it was a big bowl.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again
In the morning Siuan and Leane returned before Nynaeve even opened her eyes, more than sufficient to make her angry enough to channel. It did no good, though. What was already Healed could not be Healed again.**
Satisfied?
**Was it not Graendal who reminded him that he could still have that scar removed? Didn’t Sammael then state he would do so after he paid LTT back for that scar?
Wouldn’t this be a rather difficult thing to do if you can’t heal what’s already been healed?**
Find where it's said that Sammael was Healed, first. What I have are these:
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall
Sammael was compact, solid and larger-seeming than he truly was, his stride quick and active, his manner abrupt. Blue-eyed and golden-haired, with a neat squaretrimmed beard, he would perhaps have been above the ordinary in looks except for a slanting scar, as if a red-hot poker had been dragged across his face from hairline to jaw. He could have had it removed as soon as it was made, all those long years ago, but he had elected not to.**
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Sammael
Sammael's scar was a livid groove that slanted across his otherwise attractive face, as if a red-hot poker had been dragged from hairline to jaw. In his age, such things were easily restored. But he refused to allow his scar to be removed, wearing it as a reminder of the humiliating defeat in which he gained it. It was a badge of hatred and vengeance. An active solid man with golden hair, blue eyes, and an abrupt manner, Sammael was ruggedly handsome. His compact physique made him seem larger than he actually was. When compared to other men, he was only of average height. This rankled him, for he felt he was judged more often by height than skill, and was usually found lacking.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow
Graendal maintained her vexed expression until the gateway closed behind Sammael, then allowed herself to tap her fingernails on the marble railing. With his golden hair Sammael might have been handsome enough to stand among her pets, if he would let Semirhage remove the burned furrow that slanted across his face; she was the only one remaining with the skill to do what would once have been a simple matter. It was an idle thought.**
So, unless you have something else, I'd suggest that the reason Sammael's scar could be removed, is because it was not Healed. Unless of course you wish to present something more than just what you recall.
BrainFireBob: 2006-09-30
Callandor, I have to disagree on one point. Regrettably, I don't have time to pull up quotes, but I believe a careful read will reveal two things:
One: Certain "defining" moments become free-will choices for ta'veren, part of their selection for eing ta'veren is that they're the right people, making the right choice. I say this because it seems to me that this is the crux of trying to "Turn" Rand- at certain "points" of destiny, he has free will, the Pattern having merely set the stage, and at these point he can reject his destiny- evidence Ishamael's plan in tGH- the confrontation was fated, but Rand could have chosen to reject himself. Ishamael even notes that there are only certain "nexus" points where Rand can be persuaded to join the Shadow.
B) Channelling seems to protect channellers from ta'veren influence, much like it protects them from Compulsion- which may be how Compulsion works (selectively mimicking ta'veren effect?). This is subtle, but I believe the crux of Rand's interactions with Aes Sedai, etc. When they are actively embracing the Source, they are immune to chance-twisting effects. When they are not, they are vulnerable- hence Egwene's seizing the Power in Cairhien in LoC when she was about to tell Rand all about Salidar, and the Aes Sedai swearing to him when they weren't allowed to channel.
In fact, B might cause A- a crux of destiny with Rand channelling might make him immune to the Pattern's tugging, leaving his decisions in his own hands. His most ta'veren moments come when he's not channelling, after all. I'm unsure if his own channelling has this effect, I feel I'm on firmer ground with channelling making one immune for the duration from ta'veren influence.
All that said, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene may be ta'veren as a group, or one of them may have the ta'veren mimicking Talent- either would explain their crazy, ta'veren-esque convenient luck, since they would need to be seen, all three together, (not the possibility I think likely, but am tossing out) or perhaps because ta'veren sight doess not perceive the Talent to "duplicate" for finite spans of time ta'veren-ness.
Callandor: 2006-09-30
**One: Certain "defining" moments become free-will choices for ta'veren, part of their selection for eing ta'veren is that they're the right people, making the right choice.**
The only way that this would be true, was if the world was not so driven by the Wheel, and if ta'veren were not driven even more so by the Wheel.
Events are fated in this world. You can't get around them. They will not happen any other way then the way they are meant to happen. How is it that any decision of such importance is a "choice" then?
For example, take Mat going to Rhuidean. This is a monumentally important event for his life. We know that now more than ever, since his going to Rhuidean was directly impactful (in several ways) of Mat's fate to marry Tuon.
"Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other."
Without going to Rhuidean, there'd be no memories in his head of battles, leading to no rememberances of Hawkwing's face. There'd be no Band of the Red Hand. There are a whole bunch of other fated events that we know are subject to what happened to Mat in Rhuidean.
Say Mat "chose" to not go to Rhuidean. The Pattern set the stage, and all of a sudden it's down to Mat. What -- will -- he do?
Such a situation becomes laughable by simply looking at what did happen around Mat's "decision" to go to Rhuidean. The reason is that Mat didn't want to go to Rhuidean. There's a perfect opprotunity for him to do just that: for him to leave with Perrin. And what happens?
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 13 - Rumors
"Burn me, Perrin. Burn me! I want to g-g-- See? I can't even say it, now. Like my head knows I'll do it if I say it. I can't even get it out in my mind!"**
Mat cannot "choose" to go with Perrin. It's not his fate. This is one of the most explicit examples of the Wheel having direct control at that instance over the fate of the person. Mat physically cannot say the words.
What's really interesting is just what Mat says: if he promises to do something, he'll always do it. The very interesting thing about this is that the Wheel has used this to it's "advantage" (IE: just it's method for those instances) before.
In Crossroads of Twilight, Mat orders the death of Renna. He makes a promise to himself to not kill another woman. This seems to be just another point to make the Two Rivers boys all seem the same to some degree: all have a distinct dislike, aversion, complete hatred, of hurting women (let alone killing them).
But it is more than that. We see that in Knife of Dreams. When Mat and co. are attacked by the Darkfriend group after spending time in the Hell, Mat does not attack the female Darkfriend. He's living up to his promise. Then, Tuon kills the woman, and asks him why he did not kill the woman. He tells her: because he promised he wouldn't kill another woman. This is vitally important because we see Tuon pause and nod -- it's obvious that this was a major piece of evidence to her that Mat always keeps her promises.
And what was one of Mat's promises? That he would set her free (he made it in Crossroads). Him setting her free, was again in completion with the Foretelling. It was fated.
A passing look at Mat's case (let alone Rand's or Perrin's or all three) gives so much evidence that just flatly contradicts any notion of there being a "choice" that ta'veren have free will to make at important events. If the thing isn't important, who cares? Sure they can have free will to do it. But if it IS important, they don't have squat to do with it: it's the Wheel's way, all the time.
**In fact, B might cause A- a crux of destiny with Rand channelling might make him immune to the Pattern's tugging, leaving his decisions in his own hands. His most ta'veren moments come when he's not channelling, after all.**
You're going to have to demostrate that, rather than just claim it. Rand causing the rain in the Golden Bowl in the Waste is almost surely the completion of Min's viewing of him pouring water on sand -- a fated event dealing with channeling. That's just one example off the top of my head; I'm more than sure there are countless others.
JakOShadows: 2006-10-01
BrainFireBob:
What the heck does channeling have to do with fate and what is supposed to happen? In that one example in tGH, he was channeling and he still proclaimed himself the DR like the pattern wanted him to. He also drove back the Seanchan and gave himself a chance to build up his strength before they attacked. He wouldn't have chosen to fight them either. And the fact that someone can channel doesn't affect the pattern at all, because if something needs to happen it doesn't matter whether someone is channeling or not. It just plain has to happen. Channeling doesn't affect it at all.
Anubis: 2006-10-02
**In the morning Siuan and Leane returned before Nynaeve even opened her eyes, more than sufficient to make her angry enough to channel. It did no good, though. What was already Healed could not be Healed again.**
It could be that Nynaeve is wrong... but then I could just ask the simple question "How do you heal a broken bone that has set wrong?" You break it again and reset it.
BrainFireBob: 2006-10-03
Jak-
Untrue. I was proposing that channelling makes one resistant to the Pattern's "tugs"- after all, when you channel, you're tapping into what drives the wheelm.
Evidence Min's viewings- her readings of the Pattern and destiny- becoming fuzzy. That should only be possibly if those futures suddenly become mutable.
Seriously, if destiny was so damn pre-determined, the DO would just give up- or would have won the first permutation of the Wheel, being as how he himself is NOT so bound.
Callandor: 2006-10-04
**
It could be that Nynaeve is wrong... but then I could just ask the simple question "How do you heal a broken bone that has set wrong?" You break it again and reset it.**
Yes, that is the assumed comparative method of Healing Siuan and Leane of stilling fully (as I said in the post that Ieyasu quoted demanding evidence to base my "claim"). However, it's beside the point at hand: it just underscores that what is Healed cannot be Healed again. You need to be hurt again. Rand's hand has been Healed as a stump. Something else would need to happen to it to even conceivably have any form of "improvement" to it.
**
Seriously, if destiny was so damn pre-determined, the DO would just give up- or would have won the first permutation of the Wheel, being as how he himself is NOT so bound.**
For crying out loud, do you not read what has come before your post? This has been dealt with in detail. What else is the Dark One to do? If he just gives up, what's that done? He's still imprisoned forever then, only now he's waiting forever away doing nothing. Other option is to get out, whether knowing it is futile or simply indulging in the delusion that he could get free.
And how he wins in the first "permutation" that you claim is just silly. The only reason the Bore is in existance is because the Wheel made it so. It arranged the events to happen that way. The Bore is the only influence the Dark One has on the world. By controlling the Bore (as the Wheel is obviously doing if it brings about it in the first place, let alone the other quoted evidence), the Wheel controls the actions of the Dark One. It controls the limitations of what he can and cannot do -- and we've seen that it can predict his actions thousands of years in advance, just like any other thread.
Anubis: 2006-10-04
**Events are fated in this world. You can't get around them. They will not happen any other way then the way they are meant to happen.**
Not all events are foretold. These are determined by Free Will. The more a person fights the pattern, the more the pattern takes away their freedom and just forces them to go along. A person like Egwene does not fight the pattern so she has more control over her life.
The pattern could have forced her to go to the Waste to learn to be a Dreamwalker but it didn't have to because she went of her own free will. If she had fought, the pattern would have been much more restrictive.
JakOShadows: 2006-10-04
***Untrue. I was proposing that channelling makes one resistant to the Pattern's "tugs"- after all, when you channel, you're tapping into what drives the wheelm.***
Yes, but the amount in use when doing a basic weave is miniscule in comparison to the amount of the OP the pattern uses to control events. So while it may be true that in creates a fluctuation in events, it still amounts an almost non-existent affect. It's like saying that you have to take into account the gravitational pull of two objects next to each other in measuring the force of gravity. Becasue the gravitational tug between the two objects is miniscule compare to the gravitation towards the earth.
***Evidence Min's viewings- her readings of the Pattern and destiny- becoming fuzzy. That should only be possibly if those futures suddenly become mutable.***
And that could also be because that character is about to make a critical decision which could affect whether events happen or not. I don't know how many times I've said this, one vague example does not constitute enough evidence to say something is true. In this case, you could make a stretch and say that it is possible; but in my opinion, shear logic should tell you in is not plausible. The wheel is a big mechanism in that world, and if it can be undermined by a relatively miniscule amount of channeling, then there is something wrong.
PillowFriends: 2006-10-04
**Seriously, if destiny was so damn pre-determined, the DO would just give up- or would have won the first permutation of the Wheel, being as how he himself is NOT so bound.**
Yes, BrainFireBob, exactly, or almost so. The DO may be learning something new each permutation of the Wheel which would help him to escape eventually, at some future permutation. I was trying to make this point in The Linear Theory as well.
Sampson: 2006-10-05
I think we have to take a step back and really look at the situation. We need to understand the way the story lines were headed at the time Egwene was being tested. Over the course of the series the “fate†of the main characters has not changed, but they have had a course change or in other words, the details or the path they have taken has changed since the first 3 books.
RJ has had the big picture in his head for years. But he is still writing the books and fleshing out the story lines. The big picture hasn’t changed, but over the course of writing all the books, the path or ideas he had in the beginning HAS TO HAVE CHANGED.
By letting us experience Egwene’s & Nynaeve’s Accepted tests, it was RJ’s way to foreshadow the “general†path that the series was headed. I also think a pretty clever way.
People have pointed out that there is only one book left in the series (Thank the Lord). Egwene’s story line has way too many loose ends that have to take place. I think it would be incredible and unrealistic to think that she can wrap up everything she has to get completed before the last battle and then add in getting Rand a new hand. I do not think the majority of WOT readers would even accept the required story line to make it possible (RJ might be able to pull it off; I just do not think he could in one book).
I do not think it is a required part of the story that Rand MUST have his hand healed/returned. There are a number of theories posted on how Rand might switch bodies with Ishmael, and how Logain steps over Rand’s body to become the leader of the Black Tower. So there are ways for Rand to possibly survive and walk away whole and healthy. Even though I think it would make the story better if he didn’t.
Wheel of Time & Fate; The WOT doesn’t take away a persons free will or free choice. It manipulates the situation and environment or sets the table in a way that the choices available are narrowed to the point that the choice made is in the best interest of the Pattern. It’s just that Taveren’s choices are narrowed and stricter than non-taveren.
It was said that if there is not any free choice and everything has been fated, then there is really no reason for the story. I agree, the pattern is placing the taveren in strategic positions to promote what is required to enable the WOT to continue to turn. The pattern has guided our taveren along a path to gain experience, knowledge, and the tools that will prepare them to accomplish their ultimate task.
So unfortunately I do not agree with this theory.
wolfbrother10: 2006-10-05
Darkshadow,
You seem to forget that Egwene, Elayne, and Min are all important factors to Rand, the most Ta'veren individual in Randland. In TGH, before the battle in the sky, Rand kept saying that if any of them died, his life would not be complete. That seems to be as if Egwene has a somewhat more controlled fate than most other women associated w/ Rand.
**Also, it can't be coincidental that two women of considerable strength and potential come out of the same village as the three Ta'verens and do all of the things they have done in 11 books.**
I don’t know what significance this has because the Verin and Alanna brought to Salidar tons of girls from the two rivers that could possibly channel as strongly or maybe even stronger than Egwene.
**I believe most people are underestimating them, something Jordan has not done in all of his books, putting females in higher status and importance than most books.**
This was part of the reason why I developed my theory…The women play a huge role in the books and I think that they will make a major contribution in the LB. Min’s viewing of the dark surrounded by the sparks also included the women. When they were all together the light had a chance so each of the major female characters is responsible for the win in the LB in some way.
Callandor,
**So, you decided to explain to me the series of events told in the story that I already knew...**
The reason why I quoted the phrase was because this site is a site of WoT fans. I admit that some people don’t know the books as good as they say, but don’t we only discuss events told in the story and events that could possibly happen? This was my point…I am well aware that you know about the book events and I know of book events (even though I have only read the series twice) so your comment was a bad attempt at sarcasm. I think that with my post I addressed all that you had mentioned after so I don’t think there was anything lost in your meaning because I didn’t use the fragment to claim you said anything other than what you really said which was sarcastic and I said isn’t that what you do (recount events in the series that most already knew).
Was this really necessary Callandor? Did you not get it? :(
**My words:
**Exactly... so, Egwene, unlike everyone else it seems, is where she wants to be? Almost as if everyone else is being effected, and Egwene is not...
Arguing in anyway that Egwene is somehow less effected, or however else you wish to term this, by Rand's ta'vereness is simply nonsense. Egwene is a thread in the Pattern -- she's effected just as much as anyone else, and arguably more since she's spent a lot of time around Rand (not so much now, but overall).**
Your quoting of my words:
**Exactly... so, Egwene, unlike everyone else it seems, is where she wants to be? Almost as if everyone else is being effected, and Egwene is not...****
The punctuation in this sentence cannot confuse most people of your point. You say that Egwene is the only special person to be where she wants to be but how is that? Your question mark shows that you doubt this to be true. I didn’t use it to prove that you think Egwene has control over her life but to prove the point that it seems as if she has control which then you addressed in the following quote that I posted.
**My words:
**Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others. But that doesn't mean it was any less fated or controlled than anyone else. Perrin accepted his fate relatively easily compared to Rand, let alone Mat. Yet Perrin's fate is just as controlled as both (Rand simply to a higher degree if there is any since so much of his life has to occur specific ways).**
Your quoting of my words:
**Egwene is not beyond this in anyway. So, ascribing her as somehow having more "choice" in her life is simply a lie. The true point that is possibly being made here is that Egwene seemed to accept her fate easier than some others.**
So, you see how if you're not going to quote my words in full, and take them out of context, it can very easily be made as if I am saying something completely different from what I am actually saying.**
This quote supports the idea that Egwene seems to “accept her fate easier than some other†(your words). However, you don’t make the point that it is not controlled which I didn’t make for you. You say that she seems to accept her fate but other characters are actually offered fate and accept it eventually (Mat’s answers from the Finn; Min’s viewing of Perrin; Rand’s answers from the Finn and also Min’s visions). Egwene hasn’t been exposed as much to what her fate is suppose to be beside the vision of the stole of the Amyrlin and yet everything she all of a sudden gets the urge to do happens like becoming AS and becoming a Dreamer. It seems that Egwene makes decision about her life and that is the course that it takes. It could be that the wheel is so detailed with Egwene that she doesn’t even feel a tug but why is the experience of everyone else so different or guided which was my point.
The stuff I left out about Perrin was not of importance to me and I don’t think changed your argument in any way. Sure Perrin seems to accept his fate easily too but he was running away from the Whitecloaks which led to such and such event; He found out that Faile was the Falcon in Min’s viewing which led to such and such event; Fain was going to attack the Two Rivers which led to such and such event. Egwene on the other hand seems to be the instigator of her events with the exception of her capture both by the Seanchan and WT AS: Egwene escapes with the her friends and Moiraine which lead to such and such events; Egwene wants to be AS which leads to such and such events; Egwene wants to be a Dreamer which leads to such and such event; Egwene wants to reunite the Tower which leads to such and such events. The Wheel fate for Egwene seems to be Egwene’s own desires and aspiration.
This is why I say that it seems that she is in control because lets say that the Wheel has used her directly as the catalyst of her destiny without having to tug at her so that it seems that her decisions are her own. Is that good enough and clear enough of where I stand. Nothing is free of the Wheel and the Pattern but it SEEMS that Egwene and the Wheel are in concert with her destiny.
**Bringing up that a weave can detect male channeling doesn't change the fact that in Nynaeve's ter'angreal test, she could do it naturally (IE: just standing there, doing absolutely nothing, she could just detect male channeling, without aid of ter'angreal, weaves, or anything else).**
My reply was an oversight of your choice of words. However Nynaeve was holding onto the OP when she kind of sensed Aginor’s channeling:
TGH, The Testing, Pg 341 soft cover:
“Dimly she [Nynaeve] felt it, and far distant, as if it were something she could never truly know, but around her she saw the effects and knew them for what they were.â€
It could have been that this was a foreshadowing of the weave that was developed because she was holding onto the power. Also something I don’t know: If men and women can battle using the OP how do they do it without seeing the flows? Egwene analyzed the shield that was around Callandor and said that she felt where the weaves of Saidin were but they were invisible to her. This could also be what RJ meant when Nynaeve says “something she could never truly know†because she will never know Saidin, like a bird teaching a fish… but nothing was said that she could never sense it which is where the weave come in.
**…if he's trying to infer that egwene did everything on her own strength of will alone without input of the pattern[?]**
Vardene:
This is not what I am saying. The main reason for the theory was an idea of how Egwene could possibly aid Rand in the book to come. The thing about the pattern developed as a result of bad word choice and not knowing how to express my point. Everything is guided by the wheel yet I mentioned that it seems that Egwene seems to be where she wants to be many times.
** As for a healing talent, an aes sedai once commented(i dont remember who or where)that nnanevye must have half the talents. perhaps nnanevye had a talent that allows her to pick up talents but certainly not egwene.**
Vardene, I am not clear at all about this statement. I wasn’t aware that you could pick up a Talent I just thought that either you had it or you didn’t. A Talent that lets you gain other Talents is definitely an Ace of Spades but I don’t recall this Talent.
** so she might heal better than nnanevye but not cos of any talent unless the talent is a strength of character.**
Vardene, Egwene’s character is part of the reason why I think she has great things to come. She is extremely focused and determined, making anything she puts her mind to attainable (please don’t start misconstruing my words as that Egwene is now a goddess that can just will things into being). The Talent of Healing is that Talent. There is no Talent, as of yet, of special Healing just strength and dexterity in the Healing (It seems that strength and dexterity are needed for Nynaeve’s form of Healing), so what I am arguing is that Egwene has the Talent to Heal and that she could possibly do something that Nynaeve has not done.
**So, unless you have something else, I'd suggest that the reason Sammael's scar could be removed, is because it was not Healed.**
Callandor, we have seen in a few occasions that during battle if the person is not Healed as soon as the wound is received or shortly thereafter the wound begins to heal itself. When the wound is Healed later on a scar remains. I don’t recall exactly where but Moiraine mentioned something like this. If you could not Heal something that has healed for a while, completely to current age AS (with the exception of Semirhage who claims it was an easy feat) why couldn’t you Heal something that has been Healed? Current AS claim this to be an impossibility but (I don’t recall) any of the Forsaken making this claim or denying it which makes the possibility real.
**It could be that Nynaeve is wrong... but then I could just ask the simple question "How do you heal a broken bone that has set wrong?" You break it again and reset it.**
Anubis, this was part of my point. The authority in Healing is Nynaeve an inexperienced channeler who has managed to do great things. However she is not an absolute authority she claimed that stilling could not be Healed and she did it so why can’t you Heal something that has been Healed? If all else fails then the hand can be cut again and Healed in the way that I suggest that regenerates the hand.
***Evidence Min's viewings- her readings of the Pattern and destiny- becoming fuzzy. That should only be possibly if those futures suddenly become mutable.*
JakOShadows response:
And that could also be because that character is about to make a critical decision which could affect whether events happen or not…***
JakO this would mean that the Wheel is not as predetermined as some people claim. This is the point that some of us are trying to make that there are times when the future could go one way or another…The destinations are set but you determine how good the ride is. But to some the freedom is so miniscule as to discount it.
**So unfortunately I do not agree with this theory.**
Sampson, everyone is entitled to their opinion and that is why I posted my theory to get responses. Your response was appreciated and you had some good insight. :)
Callandor: 2006-10-06
**Not all events are foretold. These are determined by Free Will. The more a person fights the pattern, the more the pattern takes away their freedom and just forces them to go along. A person like Egwene does not fight the pattern so she has more control over her life.
The pattern could have forced her to go to the Waste to learn to be a Dreamwalker but it didn't have to because she went of her own free will. If she had fought, the pattern would have been much more restrictive.**
Which is just ignoring the point entirely and trying to make something far more important and vital than it is.
Egwene was fated to do ____. Whether she "accepted" it easier or not, it does -- not -- matter. It is still fated. It would still have happened. It's no more a "choice" than anything else.
Again, Mat is the ultimate example of this since he did fight against things, and they still happened exactly as they wanted.
Say Egwene accepted her fate easier than someone else -- fine, yippie skippie. Perrin accepted his fate pretty easy as well. Rand had difficulty but did it. Mat took the longest but eventually so. Nynaeve -- I honestly have no idea why she's brought up as a counter example against Egwene, unless people just assume so because she's stubborn.
All of it doesn't matter, however. Many events in her life were still fated. She wasn't some exception to this. It's bad phrasing at best, and seems to just be a gross misunderstanding.
Callandor: 2006-10-09
**That seems to be as if Egwene has a somewhat more controlled fate than most other women associated w/ Rand.**
This is really a very strange statement, since either it's a complete acceptance of what I've been saying this entire time -- or yet again another misunderstanding on your part. If Egwene has a more controlled fate than other women of Randland, then what the heck are you even discussing with me anymore? You've agreed with my side: Egwene isn't some special person who does things out of her own "resolve" and without "interruption" more than other people.
But given what you have repeatedly said this entire time, I just cannot help but view this as yet another instance of Egwene having more "choice" in her life than others -- I'm assuming because your saying Egwene has the chance to die here, and if she was so controlled she wouldn't have any of that or some such.
Either way, it's quite a striking statement, so you're going to have to clarify it.
**I think that with my post I addressed all that you had mentioned after so I don’t think there was anything lost in your meaning because I didn’t use the fragment to claim you said anything other than what you really said which was sarcastic and I said isn’t that what you do (recount events in the series that most already knew).**
It's another example of you doing a terrible thing: taking statements out of context. There's not real excuse to put in the ellipses other than that. No other reason at all. And, no, you did not address the actual comments I made -- you quoted what you felt you could easily dismiss, and then just ignored the other point by claiming it's all the way you view it. You then said you were doing the exact same thing I said you were doing (from the start of this to even this very post it seems), only in a completley round-about way to try to make it seem something else.
(And no, for your information, I have to repeat things again and again that people should know, but either do not, do not remember, or only remember in a twisted form that is completely false.)
**The punctuation in this sentence cannot confuse most people of your point. You say that Egwene is the only special person to be where she wants to be but how is that? Your question mark shows that you doubt this to be true. I didn’t use it to prove that you think Egwene has control over her life but to prove the point that it seems as if she has control which then you addressed in the following quote that I posted.**
The punctuation of the statement is clearly the most rhetorical compilation of what you were saying.
You said that Egwene has apparently taken the path of "least resistance" and is where she wants to be. You said very clearly that this was your point.
My point was to show how this is nothing more than a run around the bush approach of trying to pass one thing off as something else by wording it essentially in euphemisms.
You're saying Egwene is where she wants to be. You've said before that Egwene is different from Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve. You continue to hold this point, and seem to add Elayne and Min to it as well. Given what you've said before there's only one simple thing to conclude: Egwene is where she "wants to be" to you because she can choose to go where she wants. She has more choice than any of the others. Almost as if she is uneffected by ta'vereness and fate, and everyone else is.
This entire point is made blatantly obvious by the following paragraph -- which you have so nicely left out at all in quoting of my words, and just run with what I said as if to make me say that I have two positions here when anyone that actually reads what I said in context knows that is not the case at all. Why else would you say this:
**Your two responses make me a little confused. It seems as if you are taking both sides of the argument.**
After "quoting" many of my responses, you say that I'm trying to take two positions in the argument which again anyone that actually reads what I said in context cannot in any normal expectation of compotence to misunderstand. You're trying to paint me as inconsistant and simply using quotes and facts that only support my points and never anyone elses. It's ridiculous. That it is not the only time you've done such is the greater crime here.
**It seems that Egwene makes decision about her life and that is the course that it takes. It could be that the wheel is so detailed with Egwene that she doesn’t even feel a tug but why is the experience of everyone else so different or guided which was my point.**
Which is nothing more than an absolutely confirmation by you that you're doing exactly what I am saying, however much you yourself deny it: you are saying Egwene has more choice than anyone else. You're saying the rules of this world do not apply to Egwene.
**The stuff I left out about Perrin was not of importance to me and I don’t think changed your argument in any way.**
1. Of course it's of no importance to me, if you do not care about the context of what is being said by the person you are arguing against. That is one of the major points I was making in that last post: you've repeatedly taken my words out of context to do nothing but suit your needs to try to look good in the argument. You're doing this to try to give the appearance I'm saying something that I am not -- that example is probably the greatest one.
2. I have absolutely no idea how you can say that you thought it didn't change my argument at all, unless you completely do not understand what I am arguing at all, and have not since the beginning of this thread. My argument has not changed at all regardless of your attempt to make it seem so. I made it in that very post you took my words out of context yet again by detailing how the Wheel works to control the major events but leaves the miniscule things open for variation. I said specifically that Egwene was not beyond that.
**Is that good enough and clear enough of where I stand. Nothing is free of the Wheel and the Pattern but it SEEMS that Egwene and the Wheel are in concert with her destiny.**
If you're going to actually hold to what you say in a consistant manner, then yes it's more than fine. It's a complete falsehood, and everything else I've said about your position before this still stands completely.
I quoted the very basic fact about this series: it's a world of predestination to a large degree. Egwene, being inside and of the Pattern, is not somehow different than everyone else in the world no matter if to you she seems different. She's not. I mean the thing about this is that you're saying Egwene does have a destiny (which there simply being one at all for her negates any such claim of her having more choice or freedom or whatever than anyone else), yet that there are these incidents where Egwene had no control over things, and they happened how the Wheel wanted -- but forget those, look at all these other cases where it seems Egwene is more in control of her life than others. And then you stoop to taking my words out of context to give the impression I am saying something other than what I'm very clearly saying, and to easily ignore the other points I'm making.
**My reply was an oversight of your choice of words. However Nynaeve was holding onto the OP when she kind of sensed Aginor’s channeling:**
Yay, Nynaeve's holding the One Power -- hey, guess what? She's also doing nothing. She's not using ter'angreal or weaves or any other contrived methods to detect saidin. She's doing it naturally. Which is impossible.
**If men and women can battle using the OP how do they do it without seeing the flows?**
It's a difficult battle, as has been explained by Asmodean when Rand asked him directly about this, and the numerous other instances where male and female channeling actually come into battle.
**Egwene analyzed the shield that was around Callandor and said that she felt where the weaves of Saidin were but they were invisible to her.**
Egwene was "seeing" the lack of a presence around the saidar part of the weave:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod
Cautiously, she reached out with the Power, probing at whatever held and shielded the sword. Her probe touched - something - and stopped. She could sense which of the Five Powers had been used here. Air, and Fire, and Spirit. She could trace the intricate weave made by saidar, set with a strength that amazed her. There were gaps in that weave, spaces where her probe should slide through. When she tried, it was like fighting the strongest part of the weave head on. It hit her then, what she was trying to force a way through, and she let her probe vanish. Half that wall had been woven using saidar; the other half, the part she could not sense or touch, had been made with saidin. That was not it, exactly - the wall was all of one piece - but it was close enough. A stone wall stops a blind woman as surely as one who can see it.**
Egwene deduces what the shield is made of -- she doesn't know right away, as if she is able to detect or see saidin.
This is not what Nynaeve does in her testing. First is that she can change Aginor's weave by "feeling" the flow:
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 23 - The Testing
It seemed to her, just for a heartbeat, as if time had suddenly slowed, as though that heartbeat took forever. She felt the flow inside her - saidar, came a distant thought - felt the answering flow in the lightning. And she altered the direction of the flow. Time leaped forward.
With a crash, the bolt shattered stone above Aginor's head. The Forsaken's sunken eyes widened, and he tottered back. "You cannot! It cannot be!" He leaped away as lightning struck where he had stood, stone erupting in a fountain of shards.**
And then she's able to sense what he is doing more directly. As well, this is another incident of you taking things out of context -- the series this time:
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 23 - The Testing
Saidar was a torrent racing through her. She could feel the rocks around her, and the air, feel the tiny, flowing bits of the One Power that suffused them, and made them. And she could feel Aginor doing... something, as well. Dimly she felt it, and far distant, as if it were something she could never truly know, but around her she saw the effects and knew them for what they were.**
Nynaeve in real time is detecting saidin; she's not fighting some invisible force she cannot detect and only rationalizing out what it is like Egwene did with the shield.
**If you could not Heal something that has healed for a while, completely to current age AS (with the exception of Semirhage who claims it was an easy feat) why couldn’t you Heal something that has been Healed? Current AS claim this to be an impossibility but (I don’t recall) any of the Forsaken making this claim or denying it which makes the possibility real.**
What the heck are you saying? The entire point I was making is that something that is Healed cannot be Healed again -- we see that directly with Leane and Siuan. Sammael was brought up, and it's baseless. We know Sammael has a scar. We know it had the potential to be removed if Semirhage did it. Those three facts are not incompatable -- it just means that Sammael was not Healed. It explains why he has the scar, and why he can have it removed if Semirhage did it, it also fits in with what we know, and finally there's not even a single stated incident that Sammael was Healed in the first place.
Aes Sedai of the current Age have problems Healing old wounds that weren't Healed before (such as Thom's leg), but apparently that is just lack of knowledge in their case, rather than a true impossibility.
**The authority in Healing is Nynaeve an inexperienced channeler who has managed to do great things. However she is not an absolute authority she claimed that stilling could not be Healed and she did it so why can’t you Heal something that has been Healed?**
Yes, the inexperiences word that is the word that is uncontradicted, and directly supported in that it was done and the result was no improvement....
**If all else fails then the hand can be cut again and Healed in the way that I suggest that regenerates the hand.**
Which is just going back to the comparison to severing and burning out in the first place. Severing is like getting a cut -- something to Heal. With burned out cases, there's nothing to Heal. Rand can't lose the same hand again, the same way a burned out channeler cannot burn themselves out again. What'st there to be Healed has been Healed.
JakOShadows: 2006-10-10
wolfbrother:
***JakO this would mean that the Wheel is not as predetermined as some people claim. This is the point that some of us are trying to make that there are times when the future could go one way or another…The destinations are set but you determine how good the ride is. But to some the freedom is so miniscule as to discount it.***
From just the viewing alone, I might say that it is true. But if something absolutely has to happen in a certain way, then when a critical decision comes up, the pattern will acount for what ever happens and force the event to happen still. With Min's viewings its almost like you are seeing what the pattern is doing in slow motion as it guides the events. No matter what decision is made, if something has to happen it will happen. The pattern is just hazy at that moment because it does not know how to react yet; it just knows that a change is coming and that it needs to be compensated for. So on big events, if something needs to be a certain way it will be, this doesn't prove that they always have a choice over their path. Mat meeting Tuon is a good example. Something had to trap him in Ebou Dar until Tuon arrived so the events could occur, and the building falling on him is what forced him to stay a while. I think no matter what happened, being forced to stay in Ebou Dar would not have been an easy road for him, so his path could not have been greatly affected by his choices or made easier. It was meant to be difficult.
Anubis: 2006-10-17
**Almost as if she is uneffected by ta'vereness and fate, and everyone else is.**
I don't think anyone made that implication. Besides yourself.
Callandor: 2006-10-20
Then tell me Anubis, how do you read this section, except in the way that I explained?
**She has done many things out of her own resolve without much interruption from outside sources unlike our three Ta’veren who usually have been guided or even Nynaeve who has decided to go along to avenge herself from Moiraine and to protect these children whose diapers she changed.**
Dragons Shadow: 2006-11-13
just a quick note on the healing of rands hand.
It won't happen.
I don't have my books handy so I can't give an exact quote, but there is a game piece in one of the books that is a 'reflection' of Rand Al'thor
that is missing a hand, isn't there?
Anubis: 2007-01-12
**Then tell me Anubis, how do you read this section, except in the way that I explained?**
Scroll up. If you didn't read it the first time why would I expect you to a second?
Callandor: 2007-01-14
A lovely non-answer. Again:
**Me: Almost as if she is uneffected by ta'vereness and fate, and everyone else is.
You: I don't think anyone made that implication. Besides yourself.**
So, please, how do you explain this:
**She has done many things out of her own resolve without much interruption from outside sources unlike our three Ta’veren who usually have been guided or even Nynaeve who has decided to go along to avenge herself from Moiraine and to protect these children whose diapers she changed.**
The implication is more than clear: everyone else has been guided by the Pattern, Egwene was not. It's almos as if everyone but her is effected by ta'vereness and fate, but not Egwene. With Egwene it's all "her own resolve." How can this be treated in anyway but Egwene having more free will (more choice) than others? It's ridiculous, but there's more than clear implication, Anubis.
Finwitch: 2007-02-08
Not effected by Rand? The woman whose plan#1 was to MARRY Rand -- this has certainly changed. Her plan#2 was to become a Wisdom - didn't happen either because she chose to follow Rand&others instead.
So she ended up in the White Tower because of the ta'veren pull - same goes for Nynaeve. Neither wouldn't have ended up there without Moiraine coming to Two Rivers for Rand's sake!
Egwene appears to be quite happy with the way her destiny is going - that's *her* response.
Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills they say. Liking the way it weaves your life-thread is completely up to you, of course...