ow the DO Will Remake the World in His Image.
by JakOShadows: 2005-11-01 | 5 out of 10 (5 votes)
I was replying to a comment about the DO and his prison and I got to thinking about something. A lot of us have thought about what the DO will do once he has broken the seals and can touch the world again. And I got to thinking, couldn’t he do this in AoL? And if he could, how come he didn’t remake the world in his image already?
I mean, I’ve always assumed that if he could touch the world in the least little bit, he would remake the pattern in his image, but it can’t be true if LTT actually sealed the DO again. So I’m going to explain how I think the DO means to remake the world in his image, and that it won’t be as easy as it seems.
So first, let’s look at what happened in the AoL. Mierin(Lanfear) created the bore, which allowed the DO to touch the world again. Before this, no one knew of war or anything as evil as is now known in Randland. It is what is known as a utopian society. It sounds like there were no armies and people in general had a lot more trust in the fact that people would do the right thing and that they weren’t always out to get you. If you want an example, take a look at the Dai’shain Aiel. They got along just a fine and were a working part of society even though they never commited an act of violence. Now, the one group most like them, the tinkers, have to run and constantly have to deal with death even if they will not fight. So after the bore was drilled, the world took a serious decline. The aes sedai being turned to the DO (some of which were the forsaken), and commiting atrocities that made have made them unforgettable for over 3,000 years.
That, along with the DO’s armies nearly destroying human kind in the war of power. So you could say, the DO affected the world through his minions. And then the bore was sealed and there was some semblance of peace, but after the war of power nothing could be rebuilt like new and a lot was forgotten over time. So you could say the DO shaped the pattern in a major way.
Now in the timespan since the sealing of the DO and the breaking, you notice that there was peace kept as much as possible, but people were not as trustful, and believed that they had to fight harder for the protection. And in all defense, they did. Because the seals were not a perfect solution, as we now know. So it is completely possible that over all this time, he has touched the pattern in an ever so slight way at times, and this never allowed for a proper rebuilding. Not to mention the periods like the trolloc wars and the fall of Artur Hawkwing and several events that were started by the forsaken Ishmael when he was free in the world. So the DO could still affect the world.
And then we come to present time in Randland. The seals are weakening. The DO’s touch on the pattern is increasing. He has had the ability to control the weather. We are seeing a rise in the number of darkfriends and their activity. The black ajah has finally come out into the open since it was started. The forsaken are also loose on the world. And we are starting to see ghosts come out in greater numbers, and as we know were not so friendly in KoD. It seems as if his control over the pattern is increasing.
Now the one other thing I noticed is that the greater his control was, the greater the number of followers he had. The war of power, he had whole armies of men on his side along with powerful minds and channelers of that age; that fought against the light. He very nearly won the war. And then over Randland’s turbulent history since then, the more peaceful it is, the less darkfriend activity is and vice versa. Then we come the current age, where the world is coming into dire straights and it seems that unless a miracle occurs, the world will be destroyed. It just so happens the forsaken are free again and that darkfriend activity couldn’t be higher.
So what I propose is that for the DO to remake the world in his image he must first win over control of the majority of the people over their own free will(turn to the darkside). It was done in the war of power through torture, fear, and even through mobs of children. And it seems the same thing is happening now. Notice how he is not trying to directly fight Randlanders so much.
In my opinion, all the events are meant to scare the **** out of people and create chaos so that they give up and can be turned easier. And then we also see the quote of Moridin/Ishy where he says “it’s easy to win the game when you control both sides.â€.
So the DO is obviously not going for just a military conquest, but winning over of events and peoples. And then what else would explain him not wanting Rand dead, except that he means to indirectly defeat Rand by turning the world against him so that he has no choice but the bow down to the DO. And not to mention, Rand is ta’veren, along with Perrin and Mat. So once any one of them is turned, the balance is lost and the DO will take control.
So for the DO to remake the world in his image, he must not only break the seals, but he must have most of the people serving him. And for this time happen, he has to create an imbalance in his favor, which means he has to bring down one of the ta’veren and make them too weak, as a whole, to oppose his will on the world. Then from there the world will be remade in his image. He came very, very, very close in the war of power, and now he is coming very close to doing the same again through creating chaos beyond what they can manage.
And so to bring the world back to complete peace and to be able to have perfect balance in the world again, the bore will have to be resealed like new, to allow people to not be tempted at all by the evils of the DO and bring back the trust which allows the idea of peace to grow. That way the DO cannot in anyway create chaos or place any temptations so as to gain a foothold again.
I will be very interested to see what you think, as I have not seen any idea like this in my time here. And sorry for the delay, I had to read KoD before I could post it on the theory page.
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Tamyrlin: 2005-12-12
Your idea brings us to a good conversation; what constitutes the DO's ability to remake the world? Is it a simply, ongoing process of converting people to his cause, along with his growing control over the Pattern, in general? Can the DO remake the world without entering the world fully? Does the Bore's size matter? As far as I recall, the Forsaken were doing something to attempt to widen the Bore. Is the widening of the Bore a simple way to enable the DO to gain more control? Is the DO's influence over time enough to remake the world in his image? JakO, why do you believe the DO needs the people? I know people have willingly turned to him in the past for a variety of reasons, but are they necessarily a part of remaking the world? In other words, if the Bore was large enough, would the DO need Forsaken?
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lurk: 2005-12-12
Part of the discussion about the way the DO will remake the world depends on what his main objective is. we know he is the exact opposite of the creator. The creator builds so the DO tears down/destroys.
we have learned in the books (TGH IIRC) that the creator has made many worlds and let those fend for themselves after creation. The creator knows there is an opposing force (he has placed him (or her ) outside the pattern. The creator knows that the DO has means to remake the pattern so he gives every world (pattern) a champion of light (the dragon) to counter the DO's influence. But the champion is merely human so the champion can fail. For the rest the creator does not care what happens to his creation (like a builder that walks from one project to the next and never looks back).
So what does his exact opposite wants? The DO cannot create for he is a destroyer. But is his purpose to destroy and only destroy or is his purpose to "steal" what the creator has made and have men turn it in something opposite of what the cerator intended.
Often in fantasy the creator and the dark one are brothers. They do not agree with each other because they both stand for exact that which the other does not. But they cannot do without each other. For they need each other for balance. But most of the times there is envy from the DO towards the creator. Not from the creator towards the DO. Envy is a negative power and is not from the Creator (it does not exist in utopia) but from the DO. Is envy the key?
Back my question, what does the DO want?
1) destroy what the creator has build simply because the creator build it. The DO probably needs to unbalance the wheel first in order to be able to destroy it (like needing a crack to get a grip)
2)"steal it" and have men turn it into a world that mirrors the DO's personality.
In both options the DO needs humans inside the pattern to unbalance the wheel.
My guess (totally unsubstaniated) would be the envy option. The DO wants something for hiself but because he cannot build he wants what the creator has build but different. But how different, complete opposite from utopia.
a world governed by:
greed, hate, envy, murder, mistrust, betrayal, no truth whatsoever etc.
Maybe the seven sins?
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JakOShadows: 2005-12-14
lurk:
That's an interesting reason why. And it would make logical sense too, him being trapped in a prison and inferior to the creator.
Tam:
It could be possible that if the bore was big enough that he could control the world, but it would still be more difficult. Because the world is in essence created by people in the pattern and they are the key. As lurk said, however you look at it, the DO needs to influence the people in the pattern somehow. And that could also be why the DO wants Rand alive, so he could better manipulate the pattern. So it does fit in with all the plans the DO has laid down so far.
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JakOShadows: 2005-12-14
Tam:
Sorry about the double post, but there were a few things I forgot. The DO's influence alone could do it my mind, because the longer he has influence the more people would be converted. If you look at a lot of things you mention, it is a cause and effect thing. If the DO has influence for longer, then he convert more people to his cause, and some of them channelers who could widen the bore. So I think it would be difficult to pin it down to one thing. I think as long as he has influence, everything else will happen. Now the amount of time would depend. If he has a long enough time, he could gain a lot of influence even if it is just pinprick in the pattern. And I also think that the method LTT used to seal the DO is part of the reason that the DO has so much power in current Randland. Because he has had 3,000 plus years to influence it. Where as in the age of legends they completely forgot that the DO existed, because he was properly sealed away. So that's why Randland is in such dire straights at this turning of the wheel.
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Hank McCoy: 2005-12-14
Great theory. The DO needs people in so many ways. One key function of humans is entertainment for the DO. The DO enjoys torturing, breaking and destroying humans and their spirits. If people die the enjoyment goes as well. This is why he wants Rand to live until the last battle. He wants to witness the destruction of the Creators champion. It is classic villainy. The bad guy always has to gloat about winning. The DO is not above this. If Rand dies before the end it would rob the DO of this opportunity. The DO is envious of the Creator and wants utterly defeat the Creator at his game. To do this, the DO must face and defeat everything the Creator can throw at him. If he can do this then he is superior to the Creator in his mind.
The DO is a kid at an anthill with a magnifying glass. Humans are the ants.
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Paddy: 2005-12-14
This makes sense, since in the AoL he was in fact free of his cage for a great many years, but during this time people were turned gradually to the DO. It makes sense that to affect the pattern, he has to affect enough people to gain enough of an influence over the pattern
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BranflakesAlVere: 2005-12-14
How will the DO remake the world? Cats. Lots of cats.
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Kuma: 2005-12-14
Hmmm...interesting. Jak, I think you and I have fundamentally different ideas of what the Dark One wants to do to the Pattern, the world, and time. I don't think that his motives are particualrly concerned with the inhabitants of Randland except for what they can do to help him get free of his prison. For all that follows, I ask the board's fogiveness in not having my books here in Japan to get quotes from--I'll be running on memory.
What are the Dark One's end goals? I can only think of three, all others being either tributary to or engulfed in them:
1) He wants to be free of his prison. (Apparent from his actions and necessary to achieve his other stated aims.)
2) He means to slay the great serpent. (From the dying Maiden of the Spear.)
3) He means to break the Wheel. (Also from the dying Maiden of the Spear.)
For #1, and only for that, the DO has all of this concern with the inhabitants of Randland. The Bore is a pinprick in his prison, and you're right in that because it's so limited, he must work through his agents rather than acting directly. He deals with them where he can reach them--Randland, rather than some other world within the Pattern.
For #2, we know that the DO is trying to end the cyclical nature of time. That means that death becomes final, that time is linear, that there is no *Pattern* (which relies on repetition and cycles), only chaos. For more on this, I'm going to cheat and quote myself from the [Alivia Will Balefire Moridin (After He Merges with Rand)] theory:
**Consider the following: circular and cyclical patterns are connotative of life, change, hope and motion, whereas linear direction suggests the static, the stagnant, despair of the foregone conclusion and unchanging death. [...] If he succeeds, the circular Pattern of the Wheel is essentially broken--it becomes the linear continuance of dialectic rather than "an Age long past, an Age yet to come."**
And as for #3, with the Wheel broken and no longer weaving the ordered, cyclical Age Lace, I think that the previously mentioned linear chaos of lives and deaths and the eternal static hopelessness is all that would remain.
THAT, is what I believe the Dark One means to make of the Pattern, what "in his image" means: A hideous, chotic tangle of hopeless souls and life-threads, sailing endlessly through linear time toward the foregone conclusion of their eternal deaths.
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Paddy: 2005-12-16
*2) He means to slay the great serpent. (From the dying Maiden of the Spear.)
3) He means to break the Wheel. (Also from the dying Maiden of the Spear.)*
Wasn't that just Ishmaels way of manipulating Rand into going where he wanted them too.
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JakOShadows: 2005-12-16
Kuma:
I'm not claiming to know how he intends to remake the pattern in his image. But to do that you do agree that he needs to have a fairly strong grip on the people in the pattern. Otherwise he couldn't do it at all. I do think that your theory is a viable idea for his final goal. But to get there, he has to be able to inflict his will, and you said yourself that requires the control of the people of Randland. So where in the theory did I say something that contradicted your thoughts? The pattern by all means is not a shield for the wheel, but the DO has to control them and prevent them from being reborn. That is in essence what you and I saying.
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snakes-n-foxes: 2005-12-20
Hi, your theory got me to thinking…
The thought that the DO was free in the age of legends, and that the last seal breaking didn’t mean the end of the world, has occurred to me too, but I couldn’t make anything of it.
Is there a quote where it was said that the DO wanted to break the pattern? Or was that only the wheel ? If the DO is ‘imprisoned outside’ the pattern, he would ‘come inside’ the pattern if it was broken.
The breaking of the wheel of time would remove the cyclical nature of the wheel. And it seems to me that, if the DO has gone through an endless series of escapes and imprisonments, that the only way for him to truly escape, would be to break the wheel of time, otherwise he is forever doomed to be returned to jail.
Another thought - even before the bore, the Dark One was able to touch the pattern in very small ways. After all, how else did Lanfear know there was a DO in the first place? She set him free, and to do that you either have to have knowledge of his existence, or knowledge of his prisons existence…when Rand went through the Ruidean ter’angreal, it was said that ‘a new source of power had been found’, which means she had knowledge of the DO.
Another interesting point you raised, was about chaos. Let the Lord of Chaos Rule. The forsaken and darkfriends (eg Taim) have been commanded to sow chaos. Rather than killing Rand, they are doing everything possible to turn the world upside down.
It’s been a constant theme throughout the books about the difference between hardness and strength ‘hard is harder to bend/easier to break, whilst strength is easier to bend/harder to breakâ€. And then there is Cadsuane trying to teach them to laugh and cry again.
I can’t remember if it’s been suggested before, but it seems to me that the DO, through ‘Letting the Lord of Chaos Rule’ is doing this to make Rand has hard as possible. It’s also known that the DO wants Rand to bow down to him. Is it possible that the DO believes his best chance of turning Rand is to make him so hard, he snaps?
And then the DO wants to Break the Wheel/Pattern. He obviously couldn’t do this straight after the bore was drilled, so what’s so different about now ? The answer is ‘nothing’. Even the number of channellers makes no difference, unless you can believe that all the channellers in one world are enough to defy a being that encompasses millions to billions of worlds (every world that ever was). If ‘nothing’ is the difference between then and now, then what the DO needs is a key, or something powerful enough to break it. Since the DO and the Creator are the two most powerful beings in existence, and the DO’s power isn’t enough to break it…what the DO needs is a key.
Rand ‘seems’ to be the key. I don’t know of any real proof to support this, only that Rand is the creators champion, and the DO’s moves actually seem to be directed all around Rand…wanting to convert him of his own free will, orders not to kill Rand, orders to sow chaos, the forsakens fears that Rand would be named Nae’blis. On the other side of the coin, obviously many of the DO’s moves ‘should’ be aimed at Rand. After all it’s Rand who’s supposed to re-imprison him.
The only other thing that speaks in favour of Rand being the key, is ‘who/what else could be the key’…from the last time he broke out there is nothing new of use to the DO…but the creators champion is different (same soul, new/different person), and possibly the male Chodan Khal (if that’s spelt right).
I’m not sure about the idea of needing to convert a majority of people.
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tworiverswoman: 2005-12-21
First, you have to define “In his image.â€
I agree that this will mean an ascendancy of the negatives, i.e., fear, hate, greed, lust, distrust, etc. We all know the litany. This should mean that he needs to conquer the minds and souls of the greater population, but so far, aside from side effects, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
I also have a couple of small nit-picks:
JakOShadows, you said, “…allowed the DO to touch the world again. Before this, no one knew of war or anything as evil as is now known in Randland. It is what is known as a utopian society.†I want to disagree a bit with this. Didn’t Rand see, in the Ruidean columns, when he was watching the planting/singing ceremony, soldiers/guards stationed around the crowd? I remember recognizing what sounded like a description of a Seanchan helmet.
We only saw Aiel in these visions, of course, which means we have no idea what the rest of the society was like. Cynical as I am, I’m afraid I believe that conflict is in the DNA of most humans, and it sure didn’t take long to surface, even in the visions. Also, if they were utterly unfamiliar with war, and its corolary, defense, the Shadow would have rolled right over them while they were still standing around going, “Wait! What?â€
You also state, “Now the one other thing I noticed is that the greater his control was, the greater the number of followers he had.†This is sorta true, but I think you’ve stated it backwards. It’s more correct that “The greater the number of followers he had, the greater his control was.†I am guessing that you’re saying more people will switch sides if he is winning, so I guess it’s not all that wrongly phrased after all, but it’s even more cynical sounding than I care for.
Lurk said “we have learned in the books (TGH IIRC) that the creator has made many worlds and let those fend for themselves after creation.†I think this was Moridin (in Rand’s HEAD!) offering a philosophical concept. No place else in any book was this belief espoused. Moridin is even more cynical than I am. This is his personal belief (and, oddly, LTT agreed with him.)
Paddy said, “This makes sense, since in the AoL he was in fact free of his cage for a great many years…†With this I must disagree. He has NEVER been free. All he has ever had was the bore. For one thing, if he had been free, LTT and the companions would have needing a lot more patching compound to caulk up the bore.
Kuma, I’m not going to paste your comments on the Wheel vs. Linear Time, but your ideas seem to be the backwards of Robert Jordan’s. He has stated in several interviews that the greatest gift we got from the Greeks was to be broken free of the concept of a wheel of endless repeats, into a concept of Linear time, where true change could actually occur. You called it the “despair of the foregone conclusion.†I would be rather inclined to call the PATTERN the foregone conclusion.
Ultimately, the DO is a nihilist. I can’t understand what the hell the Forsaken are imagining as a future if he wins. I doubt very much they will take any pleasure in actually living forever in a world that bleak, and if Civilization is destroyed, as seems most likely, there wouldn’t even be any pretty toys to play with.
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lurk: 2005-12-23
Well Immortality is one of the prime goals for those that pledge their soul to the DO. Our own history is full of people seeking eternal life being it a special well you need to drink from or a philosofers stone.
Next to eternal life people seek power, what greater power is there to rule the world. If the desire is large enough you tend to get blinded by it. You don't think what eternal life and absolute power in a world remade in the DO image REALLY means.
eternal life turns into eternal hell. Except if you don't mind doing the same old evil things over and over and over for all eternity.
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JakOShadows: 2005-12-25
tworiverswomen:
The people in the age of legends may not have known war, but they played games similar chess and Go, so maybe they'd played games like war. And when I talk about war I think about men fighting men as in opposing societies. There might be arrests and suchlike, but those would be individual fights, more like policing. And the helmeted soldier, if I remember correctly, is at the moment of the sealing. And also we know that the Seanchan were eventually corrupted, so he still could have been good. In general thought, I meant that the norms of society didn't know war or account for it. Whereas current age, it is a factor in beliefs. That is what I meant by it.
And as to the intent of the DO, he needs to remake the world in his image, but he definitely needs people to do it. So you would need to convert the people first. You would need to change the societal norms.
And as for the linear time, I always thought that if the DO did win eventually, there would be no time. I have no idea how it would technically work, but from what RJ says he doesn't actually care or enjoy punishing humans. He would rather have power. If he feels more powerful torturing people, then he might do it. And if you think about it, time means that it allows for change, so it could be interpreted that there will be no change at all and they will have to live in their misery forever. But as he is a god there is not way of knowing what he has planned, and hopefully we will never know.
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Paddy: 2005-12-27
tworiverswoman said
Paddy said, “This makes sense, since in the AoL he was in fact free of his cage for a great many years…†With this I must disagree. He has NEVER been free. All he has ever had was the bore. For one thing, if he had been free, LTT and the companions would have needing a lot more patching compound to caulk up the bore.
Yes but you've seen how much effect he can have on the world and pattern he can have still sealed away (changed the weather). So he must be able to do a lot more when there was a gaping hole bored into his prison, so why didn't he? because he didn't hold the majority of threads in the AoL he held a few, but the forces of good were still fighting back and obviously held enough threads to stop him from controlling the pattern.
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wolfbrother10: 2006-01-01
I agree with what Paddy said. When Min had her viewing of key members of the pattern she said she saw sparks fighting against the darkness. The more people there were when she viewed them the stronger the sparks became. In one viewing we see that Rand was alone and the darness was winning but when he was joined by the other ta'varen the sparks were stronger. Even though they are not as important as Mat, Perrin, and Rand, Min, Egwene, Moiraine, Lan, Nynaeve, Thom, Elayne and even Toan are key members that have there own spark to contribute to the whole in the fight against the dark. If the DO controls or eliminates them then we see Rand alone with only his sparks and he will lose as Min saw in her viewing.
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Trahelion: 2006-01-11
Your comment about the weather got me thinking..It seems that there might be a solution to each of the Dark Ones effects on the world inside a ter'agreal. The weather was brought back to normal using the ter'angreal found in Ebou Dar, and Elayne and Aviendha recently found a ter'angreal that chases away vermin. If these ter'angreal can keep being found or remade, then the Dark One's touch might be stopped until he is actually free.
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Ozymandias: 2007-07-05
I think you've got to assume that remaking the world in his image merely implies destroying the Wheel and the Pattern, thereby freezing the world in the moment of their destruction. I mean... why else would the Forsaken fight for him? Life immortal and everlasting power are all well and good, but if you live in a world like the one Rand and Selene stumble across, why does it matter?
and if thats what the DO is aiming at (and that Mirror World provides evidence that he IS aiming at that), why do the Forsaken fight for him?
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JakOShadows: 2007-07-06
Howdy ya'll, haven't been here in a while because of school and then a bad internet connection. But now I'm back.
***I think you've got to assume that remaking the world in his image merely implies destroying the Wheel and the Pattern, thereby freezing the world in the moment of their destruction.***
I think that the DO doesn't necessarily want to destroy the world. He just wants to rule it, because right now the creator gives the people free will. The DO wants to be the ultimate dictator. And as for the forsaken, can we really trust their judgement? They switched sides to the DO when they were living the good life in the age of legends. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.
-Anyways, I'll enjoy hearing from ya'll again.
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Ozymandias: 2007-07-09
Exactly. These guys and gals had a great life. As a group they contain some of the most respected and powerful names of the Age. They wouldn't give that up for nothing. They want power, and so clearly in this case I think we have to assume the Dark One means to maintain the world in a semblance of its current order, or the Forsaken just wouldn't fight for him. There would be no benefit
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Marie Curie 7: 2007-07-10
Ozymandias:
"and if thats what the DO is aiming at (and that Mirror World provides evidence that he IS aiming at that), why do the Forsaken fight for him?"
It's not clear to me what that one Mirror World really has to do with what the Dark One is aiming at. That particular Mirror World - not a very probable one, apparently - was one in which the Trollocs appeared to have won. Just because the Trollocs won, it doesn't mean that the Dark One was free. As noted by RJ in a signing report (from the wotmania FAQ):
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Q: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?
A: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.
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JakOShadows:
"I think that the DO doesn't necessarily want to destroy the world. He just wants to rule it, because right now the creator gives the people free will. The DO wants to be the ultimate dictator. And as for the forsaken, can we really trust their judgement? They switched sides to the DO when they were living the good life in the age of legends. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them."
How do we know what the Dark One really wants, exactly? We know what he's told his minions - promises of immortality and power to rule his world. But we also know that he doesn't really care that much about his followers (except, I suppose, as tools to try to free him). From the Tor Questions of the Week:
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Questions from December 23rd, 2003 - April 20th, 2004
Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?
Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.
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Ozymandias:
"Exactly. These guys and gals had a great life. As a group they contain some of the most respected and powerful names of the Age. They wouldn't give that up for nothing. They want power, and so clearly in this case I think we have to assume the Dark One means to maintain the world in a semblance of its current order, or the Forsaken just wouldn't fight for him. There would be no benefit"
Do you think that the Dark One will really give power and immortality to his followers if he breaks free? Don't you think that's just wishful thinking on the part of most of the Forsaken (except maybe Ishamael/Moridin)? They believe because they have no choice. From the Tor Questions of the Week again:
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Questions from August 17th, 2004 - January 25th, 2005
Week 1 Question: The Dark One has promised his followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return. In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in his own image?
Robert Jordan Answers: That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One? You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal. Greed leads people to believe strange things, to excuse the most abhorrent behavior on their parts - just check out the nightly news for confirmation - and at the root, that is what motivates the Forsaken and, in truth, most Darkfriends. Greed for power, greed for immortality. That makes them believe, because they want to believe. So will he grant these things? Maybe. After all, he gains more willing followers, more eager followers, if he is seen to give rewards. But will he care whether he has any followers at all in a world where he is all-powerful? Flip a coin and check which way the wind is blowing. Maybe you can find the answer there.
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JakOShadows: 2007-07-11
Marie Curie 7:
I agree that the forsaken can't be trusted. They are greedy and manipulative and as far I'm concerned shouldn't be used as sources for this. But before I was argueing against the point of making the pattern a barren wasteland. I think its possible to that the DO wants to completely destroy everything, but why let it survive just so it can be a wasteland. You might as well be a surpreme dictator over the world and it would be more worthwhile than creating a barren wasteland which will be ignored.
And I guess the two sides of the coin are whether the DO just wants to feel powerful by completely destroying everything or if he wants to get his powertrip lording it over everyone. Because that essential difference is what leads to this debate. But the way he is using the forsaken now, it seems to me he means to rule the world and not completely destroy. If he wanted to do that, why not send all his forsaken with massive armies on a rampage across the world. So that's why I lean towards that idea more.
23
ReDragon: 2007-10-17
Found this about the drilling of the bore for consumption.
Title: The Strike at Shayol Ghul
Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?
This is in response to Tamyrlin's questions about the bore, and my opinion.
The main issue is that the Bore, if it was enlargened enough, the thought is that the DO could probably just destroy the rest of the prison and free himself. This is just my opinion of the interpretation of the quote.
