1
Tamyrlin: 2006-01-09
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Normally i'd reject this theory and ask you to refine it, since you don't go into a major component of it: the resurrection. (So please elaborate on that by replying to your own theory) BUT... it made me think of something wicked, and i want you to take credit for that.
What if what's happening is the ultimate balefire paradox? Two people balefiring each other, yet since the balefire would be cancelled out before it was even made, the two streams are in constant struggle to eradicate the other, in a perpeutal stalemate that's putting strain on the Pattern. If either Rand or Moridin dies, then their balefire is removed, and they are then balefired back to Shadar Logoth (and further behind, considering how strong the balefire streams were). Then everything they've done since at least Shadar Logoth is negated, and the Pattern reweaves itself. Sounds a bit contrived, but it could work. And considering how big of a player both are, the ripple effects on the Pattern would be massive.
Added messiness: what if both Rand and Moridin die at the same time? What if one kills the other at a later point with Balefire?
i like the idea that Moridin's interest in Rand's continued survival is more than hubris. If the other Chosen figure that out, then both Rand's and Moridin's days are numbered.
2
Ozymandias: 2006-01-09
Ok I don't really understand this one. Are you suggesting that the two balefire flows are now almost being held in stasis because of some sort of conflict between them? I don't see why it HAS to be Moridin that kills Rand. I have my own pet theory on that one, but I still don't see why ONLY that can break this connection. A few issues here.
1. Why doesn't the balefire undo each other's thread? I think I see where this could go, but I'd appreciate it if you could show me how you're meaning to interpret this. I mean, Rand, Mat, and Perrin all have a similar effect with seeing each other, but there's has nothing to do with the Pattern unraveling or balefire. I mean this obviously is the cause of the seeing each other, in this case, but I don't see how your logic is bringing us there.
2. We have no evidence to suggest Moridin is channeling when they see each other (I don't think). And the Pattern can not, WILL not, unwind itself. Thats an effect of balefire and balefire only. If it hasn't happened yet, it won't. For me, the entire theory of those two balefiring each other presents severe logical challanges totally unrelated to your theory.
3. According to your logic, once one is killed, shouldn't that mean the balefire finally takes effect, so Rand actually IS balefired. Because in theory, his balefire stream then no longer exists to conflict with Moridin's (by your logic), so Moridin's completes its original task and balefire's Rand. And Moridin is a utilitarian guy; if this was his only incentive for keeping Rand alive, he would have had him ordered dead long ago.
3. According to what we've seen of balefire so far, the final part of you're theory does not and cannot work. Its not a problem with the idea, its Jordans fault. To Jordan, balefire doesn't work like that really on a consistent basis (though it should). We only see it once, with Aviendha/Mat/Asmodean. All other times it doesn't make any sense and the entire balefire idea becomes contradictory in nature.
I didn't really understand a lot of the logic here... and you seem to be assuming a great deal, e.g. that Moghedien is a Dreamer (which is NOT analogous to skill in T'A'R, because thats her talent, and Egwene's Dreaming is totally different). All in all I just don't understand most of the logic behind the arguments, some clarification on most of it would be nice, especially your firt two sub-topics
3
lurk: 2006-01-10
** i like the idea that Moridin's interest in Rand's continued survival is more than hubris. If the other Chosen figure that out, then both Rand's and Moridin's days are numbered. **
Frenzy (for Tam :lol) is Elza also linked to moridin or to another forsaken? Because Elza also wants Rand to survive until the last battle. She states that he needs to be there in order to die. She even fights (other) forsaken for it (cleansing scene).
Somehow it is vital to the "dark side" that Rand dies at the last battle. This has become an interesting subject if it is actually moridins hidden agenda. But knowing Moridin / Ishamael from the books I doubt it. He has always been the one forsaken to be in ultimate service of the DO hence him becoming Naeblis.
Personally I cling to the belief that Rand being the strongest taveren since Hawkwing (and maybe ever, being the lights avatar) is vital for the DO to break free and the DO needs Rand alive for it.
4
icspots: 2006-01-10
An interesting theory, but I also don't buy into all of it. Just because Rand and Moridin's balefires struck each other doesn't mean that the person that weaved it would be unraveled by the other. I like the idea that one balefire trying to undo the other is putting a strain on the pattern though.
Have we seen any episodes of Rand becoming sick when he's not embracing saidin? I think they've only been when he's embracing the source, so I don't think we've seen any random times when maybe it was Moridin embracing saidin. On the other hand this could explain why Moridin has been almost exclusively using the True Power. Several of the Forsaken have mentioned it and the saa from their POV.
5
Traveller: 2006-01-10
Okay, is no one seeing what I'm seeing? If Moridin kills Rand, then that part of the balefire conflict is fulfilled, therefore removed, leaving only Rand's shot at Moridin, so Moridin is balefired by RAND not someone else, reversing everything he has done since then, meaning Rand is ALIVE!
Of course, there would be time for Rand to be carried away on a boat by the defeated three women, because it would take a long time for the balefire to gradually unravel the actions of Moridin (or perhaps he fakes his death after, or whatever).
Kinda far fetched, but this train of thought was sparked off by this theory and Tam's comments. It fits with most of CzKarl's theory, only that it is Rand who balefires Moridin, not someone else.
6
tworiverswoman: 2006-01-10
Just a minor nitpick, though I also disagree with the whole theory: Neither Rand nor Moridin were trying to balefire EACH OTHER at Shadar Logoth -- they both were reacting to a wall of Mashadar that was about to fall on them. The problem was they started on opposite ends and sweept toward the other end.
It's really hard to follow ANYBODY's logic on this one. But I am tickled by the concept of the two balefires attempting to unravel each other.
7
Trahelion: 2006-01-11
I thought that Mat was the one that would die and live again, Rand has to die to live? I interpreted this part as that Lews Therin must die in order for Rand to live, not that Rand has tto die himself. Although ti really has nothing to do with your theory, I'd like to bring in the posssibility that Alivia will convince that its Lews Therin's time to die and that he has to come to terms with his past and leave Rand alone.
8
Anubis: 2006-01-12
Well... Balefire is independant of time and paradox, so if you balefire someone and they balefire you then you are both gone, it would not erase the balefires. However, if you were to directly balefire someones balefire... then I could see some rather substantial problems emerging.
Of course, another problem with this theory is that Morridin/Ishamael has wanted Rand alive since the begining, it has nothing to do with hubris, I dont think that Ishmael is that kind of guy. He even went nutso on the black aja who started killing lucky men around the time of new spring.
9
CrazyIrishMan: 2006-01-12
This is just a small note, but it has been bothering me. Where the Finn's told Rand that he'd have to die to live, could they not have meant Rhuidrean before it was opened to the general populus, in the Aiel waste?
(This also relates to Mat)
10
a dragonburned fool: 2006-01-12
The idea of the never-ending inter-balefire struggle is a very good insight. But I'm not sure about some of the major implications droven from it.
First and most important: why the death of either Rand or Morridin by any additional means (any means different of balefire erasing the thread up to the moment at the balefire crossing) will resolve the inter-balefire conflict? Once the balefire is released, it propagates in a straith line spatially beginning in the plase where the channeler releases and it lasts depending of how much initial impetus the channeler brought in it. It cannot be modulated or otherwise controlled even by it's originator once it's released. It erases enything it finds on it way, without difference what is it. It isn't determined by target or anything like that. The only parameters balefire has are spatial direction, initial impetus, and power volume, nothing more. I don't find known anchoring of balefire even in the thread of it's originator: what is the difference of who balefires a target. All the survived witnesses remember the balefired events as the originator does. It is possible that balefire is bound to the originator, but there is no evidence about that.
Balefire's effect is strictly restricted by the timing of it's propagation. It burns back in the time in a degree strictly corresponding to it's Power load - no a bit less nor a bit more. It doesn't expand in any time moment after it's propagation time - no effects after the hit, but only before it.
All that is of course valid only about normal balefire, and crossing the balefires creates of course an unique situation. But this situation, as unique as it could be, will be determined by balefire's normal properties only as initial conditions.
As both balefire beams crossed, the clash between them occured before either of the beams touched Rand or Moridin. So whatever exiastentail paradox the clash created, it wasn't involving directly neither Rand nor Moridin (it can affect them indirectly thought). Whatever was there (air maybe) where the hit happened, it suffered a ver strange situation, and the balefire beams as such may be annihilated. But I don't see how the originators would be directly affected by that. However the clash definitely resulted in an existential paradox among the beams themselves and their energy destroyed, and this could initiate a process of permanent tension in the Pattern. Most likely the tension will be in the form: is there an amount of energy or not. Not so important taken as particular, this tension however will tend to discharge and the neighbouring threads will be most likely affected by this discharge. Also the tension may be induced by resonance also into said neighbouring threads. The most closely neighbouring threads are of course Rand and Moridin. The after-balefire tension was about existence or non-existence of an energy, so it's effect is expressed in tension everytime when Rand or Moridin have to deal with energy. All energy (read: Power) used by them is under partial existential paradox. Rand experienced this as sickness. This doesn't explain Rand and Moridin sensing each other. But that could be a result of the discharge of the initial clash tension - a partial melting between the neighbouring threads due to the excessive energeting anomaly that had to be discharged. Isn't it normal for energetic discharges to cause melting?
11
Bayle: 2006-01-12
Also a side not to this part of your theory:
"This only happens when they channel at the same time because its the only thing they have in common to link each other."
Not really true. As seen in Winter's Heart, Out of Thin Air:
"Suddenly a wave of dizziness hit him, a murky face filling his vision for an instant, and he staggered against a passerby...
...He was not even worried about the dizziness or whose face it was that he half saw when it struck."
Rand was not using the power at all when this happened as he was tailing Rochaid. So both the dizziness and the presense of Moridin in his vision are not tied exclusively to their channelling.
12
ThunderWalker: 2006-01-12
When Rand or Moridin Channel, they "see" each other.
When Rand, Mat or Perrin think of each other, they "see" each other. Because they are tied together by being ta'veren. Possibly the pattern is weaving them close together.
Balefire affects threads. I think the balefire streams crossing burned Rand and Moridin's threads together in some fashion as well.
Also, recall that Isam and Luc merged into one body -- two threads became one thread.
Perhaps it is likely that if one kills the other, they will merge into one body, like Luc and Isam. Then it will be a contest of wills to see who is the victor (maybe Rand would gain some sort of new abilities like Luc/Isam did as well).
And if Rand dies, but lives on in Moridin's body. That would be dying, and living again.
13
Frenzy: 2006-01-13
Guess i was being too ambiguous with what i was trying to explain. So here's attempt #2:
Rand & Moridin's streams of Balefire cross. (insert gratuitous Ghostbuster's quote here ~g~). In that moment, both streams try to eradicate each other, and their originators. However, due to paradox, neither can succeed... until one of the originators (Rand or Moridin) die. So let's assume Moridin dies. At that point, Moridin is no longer there to maintain the paradox. So what happens is that Rand's balefire wins the struggle, and Moridin is balefired all the way back to Shadar Logoth... and even further back based on the strength of Rand's balefire stream. Everything Moridin did from at least aCoS/Shadar Logoth on is removed from the Pattern, and the Pattern has to readjust itself to handle that large of a shift. If Rand is the one that dies, then Moridin's balefire wins the paradox, and everything Rand did since at least aCoS/Shadar Logoth would be removed from the Pattern.
That's the gist of my wild thought.
14
tworiverswoman: 2006-01-13
I think you've walked yourself out on a limb, Frenzy, and are busily trying to saw it off behind you. If someone balefires the tree, what will happen then? (grin)
15
JakOShadows: 2006-01-14
I think the implications of the clashing of the balefire is possible Considering all the rules we know about balefire, but it seems far fetched to begin with. While it more plausible than some other ideas I've heard, we have to remember that their target wasn't each other, it was the mashadar. So I think all of this could also be caused by a momentary clashing of the balefire as well as what you're suggesting. In effect, if all of the energy of the balefires were still clashing with eachother, nothing would have happened to the mashadar. And I don't think we can say that nothing happened to the mashadar. Because it did have some effect on it. For this idea to make complete sense, they would have to have purposely balefired each other. But this comes down to how you interpret the different laws about balefire. It is quite possible in my opinion, it just is likely.
16
The Librarian: 2006-01-15
This is not that relevant to this topic, but I find it interesting, that when balefire touches a living thing, the entire thing disappears, but when it touches a wall or something like that it only makes a hole. This is propably because living things are threads. But how does the wheel handle stones and wood? How do the non-thread things exist in the pattern?
17
a dragonburned fool: 2006-01-16
My question is: granted we have two balefires in eternal stuggles against each other. Te question is: why it would depend of the manner of life of their originators? Why in any case any already released balefire will depend of anything it's originator will do later? Once released a balefires does it's work independently of what it's originator would like to intend or to change later. Balefire doesn't ambody anything of it's originator's personality, the originator cannot be fingerprint-identified by the trace of a past balefire. Balefire has just impetus and original energy load and a linear direction, nothing more. Balefire does exaclty what it does and for doing that it doesn't need to be additionally fed. It is fed enough in the moment of it's weaving and it is independent of anything that could be done about this balefire later by anybody (except maybe - maybe but not for sure - by another balefire). I don't see any reason for balefire to be affected by it's originator's later fate.
I can see a reason for Rand and Moridin partial merging after the cross-balefire incident, but it's not any dependence of balefire from it's originator's fate. The collision between the beams caused discharge and the OP-related discharges in WoT universe affect neighbouring things. The most neighbouring things in the case of balefire-crossing were the originators. Not because of being originators but because holding a Power (of either kind) in this moment at this place. Balefire is also known to affect neighbouring objects, in sense neighbouring from forward of it's line of propagation. Collision-originated discharges usually affect the areas neighbouring the place of collision, in our case the area right back the movement of the balefire beams. The area where Rand and Morridine are in this moment.
18
Anubis: 2006-01-16
Frenzy, your making it too complex.
You have something that destroys everything, and can not be destroyed. At the same time it is made with two opposite and equal powers.
What we have here, is a direct confrontation between True Power and One Power that is independant of time and somehow linked to Rand and Morridin. Whenever one channels this is felt, apparently by both. Until one dies, the conflict will continue.
19
Gilshalos Sedai: 2006-01-17
My problem with this theory, is that y'all seem to be assuming that a a) IF this paradox is in effect, that the Pattern could fix itself, and b) please stop saying the streams crossed. They just hit each other with it at the same time. Besides, I can refrain from giggling at that phrase only so often.
What I mean by "A": There is a point at which the Pattern could be balefired enough till it unravels. The BWB talks of entire cities disappearing during the War of the Power because key people were Balefired so far back. If someone like Rand were to be balefired, (or even someone like Moridin/Ishamael/Elan Morin Tedronai...) who's effect on the Pattern has been profound, the Pattern possibly could NOT recover. And the DO escapes anyway, if the Pattern is it's prison.
"B" Moridin was most likely using the True Power. I submit that instead of both just being balefired when they hit, like they probably would have been with normal balefire, that the fact the two of them were using two different Powers aided in the creation of the paradox. I don't see how just one of them dying would end the paradox. It doesn't change what happened in Shadar Logoth. The paradox would still exist and possibly the death of one would mean the death of the other.
The one possiblity of breaking the paradox that I could see is to have someone really strong, say Alivia or Nynaeve, to hit Moridin with a big enough balefire burst to nuke him back to Shadar Logoth, but then we're still left the Pattern possibly not being able to fix itself.
20
Traveller: 2006-01-17
Hmmm, a question I have about balefire: if when balefire hits something, it is destroyed before it ouches it, then the wall behind, then the wall behind that, so on and so forth, when does the balefire end? DOes it knd of petre out as it loses energy, and how does it lose energy...?
21
Callandor: 2006-01-17
**Hmmm, a question I have about balefire: if when balefire hits something, it is destroyed before it ouches it, then the wall behind, then the wall behind that, so on and so forth, when does the balefire end? DOes it knd of petre out as it loses energy, and how does it lose energy...?**
The person stops the weave. That's when it stops. Or if the balefire is weak enough, it stops whenever it hits its target.
22
Anubis: 2006-01-18
Balefire seems to have a set distance it can go based on the ammount of power you put into it. So if random channeler shoots random balefire it wont go forever, it will disappear after a certain distance. Probably because it is almost like antimatter and it is reacting with all the matter it is going through and losing its power.
23
Zalis: 2006-01-31
So bearing this theory in mind... I was reminded about how Narishma is "to follow after". Perhaps his role would be Balefiring Moridin in order to bring Rand back? That seems like a viable definition of "following after". Maybe, maybe not.
Just a thought that I felt was worth getting out there.
24
zman: 2006-02-03
We know that there is a connection between Rand and Moridin.
We know that this started when their balefires touched. Why?
We know that whatever balefire touches ceases to exist at that time, and for an intensity-determined time before that. When Rand's balefire weave struck Moridin's balefire weave, Moridin’s balefire WEAVE ceased to exist (not Moridin’s THREAD). At the same time, Moridin’s balefire erased Rand's weave. But because Moridin’s weave didn't exist, Rand's weave should have continued. Likewise, since Rand's weave didn't exist, Moridin’s weave should have continued. Thus the paradox exists (or doesn’t, whatever paradoxes do…)
Since their balefire weaves weren't pointed at each other there is no chance of Rand or Moridin being erased by their balefire. Likewise, Rand or Moridin’s later death will not affect what happened at Shadar Logoth. Neither of their deaths will "solve" this paradox.
This paradox does not even need solving! It happened. It’s done. Enough time has elapsed that even using a strong angreal and balefireing either Rand or Moridin will probably not erase them far enough to affect this event.
We do know that Moridin probably gets sick whenever he uses the one power, as does Rand, but Why? Because...
1. When one's weave is cut off by someone else, there is a reverberating snap, like when you're stretching a rubber band and it snaps. There's a recoil shock. The affect or strength/pain of this shock is determined by the amount of power put into the weave. This is from KoD when one Aes Sedai wishes to punish a one-powered-eavesdropper, but knows that the whiplash will not be very big because the initial weave was small. I think this was also seen when Egwene fought Moghedian in the dream world, where the weaves and resulting snap were much more powerful.
Now Rand's weave was very strong, so the recoil of the cut weave should have also been strong. But the weave wasn't simply cut, it was ERASED in TIME by a weave that likewise never existed. THIS is where the side affects come in and my theory starts.
I think that when Balefire touches a weave, that the weaver gets stilled.
From this, both Rand and Moridin were stilled when their weaves touched. But since each weave was balefire, Rand's balefire stilled Moridin, but that was erased by Moridin’s balefire, thus Moridin is no longer stilled. And likewise Moridin’s balefire stilled Rand, but Moridin’s weave was erased by Rand's balefire and so Rand is not burnt out. The paradox loop that this creates allows both of them to still be able to channel.
So why the sickness and the connection?
2. I don't think that this is like Lews Therin and Rand, where two threads are in one body. I think it is exactly opposite. Since the Paradox, the Pattern fixed itself by fusing Rand’s and Moridin's thread together. I like the idea that the power of the shock melted their two threads together, but it is probably due mostly to the power of the Pattern balancing and restoring itself. Now how do two threads become one, and one thread have two bodies? Look at Luc, or Padan Fain, or Rand and Lews, or Osangar, Moridin, Lanfear, Matt, and Birgete. They're all over the place! I think this happens the same way that Traveling happens (see the theory thread on Time-Travel). For a man to travel, he grabs two parts of the pattern and punches a hole through them, and can walk through that hole. For a woman, she MAKES THE TWO PLACES EXACTLY SIMILAR AND THEY BECOME ONE!! This is where Alivia (who I still want to be Lanfear, though she probably isn’t) comes in. She helps make Rand and Moridin similar and they become one, Rand takes over. This leaves Lews in Rand’s body. Lanfear (Alivia) kills Lews in Rand’s body, Logain steps over Rand’s dead body and kills Lanfear. Rand wins TG. that’s just my theory…the last part won’t happen, but that’s the fun of theories!
25
Callandor: 2006-02-04
** I don't think that this is like Lews Therin and Rand, where two threads are in one body.**
That's not the situation at all -- Rand and Lews Therin are one soul, one body, one thread; two personalities.
** Now how do two threads become one, and one thread have two bodies? Look at Luc, or Padan Fain, or Rand and Lews, or Osangar, Moridin, Lanfear, Matt, and Birgete. They're all over the place!**
1. Fain is two souls in one body -- Mordeth was a soul, not a thread/body.
2. Slayer is pretty much an unknown, but he's again two souls in one body, not two threads as far as we know.
3. Rand and Lews Therin are again, one soul, one body, one thread, two personalities.
4. Lanfear is Lanfear -- she's now in the form of Cyndane. No mystery here.
5. Mat is one body, one soul, one thread, with memories from other men's lives put into his own head.
6. Birgitte is a soul pushed out into the real world, and given a thread.
26
JakOShadows: 2006-02-05
"I think that when Balefire touches a weave, that the weaver gets stilled."
Everything else you said is possible and for the most part stuff I agree with. (except for your pet theory at the end, but I won't go into that one) The only problem I have with this is that the weaving one whole unit with the channeler. It's more of a link. Picture a rubberband attached to the wall, the rubberband and wall are not the same object. So when the rubberband is cut, it would snap back towards the wall. But if it were to cease to exist, then there would still be the thing that attached it to the wall.
27
timmooo: 2006-10-09
Sorry. This seems very unlikly as the sole purpose of balefire is to unrevel its target. According to your theory the balefire know what it's target is intented to be even though the balefire does not actuallt reach its target. As the bale fire collided shouldnt they just unracvel the balefire and not its 'user.'
28
jmanidb: 2011-07-18
The women will be on the boat because they can no longer channel. Just saying...
