Tamyrlin: 2006-03-10

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin) Considering Rand has moved his forces and his focus to Arad Domon, do you think he'll have time to go to Caemlyn, even as a side trip? Or do you think the campaign in Bandar Eban won't last for months? That scene where Perrin got lost in the swirling colors wasn't just a dam bursting because he had shoved all the colors away in the past. At the time Rand and Nynaeve were cleansing the taint off of Saidin. One could argue that the event was the seminal event of the Age, and all (or at least a good chunk) of the threads in the pattern were focused on it. Whenever one of the ta'veren think about the other, the swirling colors show them a scene involving what the other is doing at the time. You'll notice that that scene isn't from the pov of the other ta'veren. Mat isn't seeing through Rand's eyes, etc. Almost as if they are catching a glimpse of the Pattern as it's being woven, which makes sense since they are all focal points of the Pattern these days. Curious aside: anyone have a quote of Perrin seeing Mat, or Mat seeing Perrin, or is it limited to them seeing Rand?

Paddy: 2006-03-10

Well its not really a connection, as none of the others are aware they're being watched when they see each other. And its never from First person, always from third person view. (example when Mat sees Rand and Min naked)

Callandor: 2006-03-11

**I'm not sure if there are other mentions of the swirling colors before this moment - I'm sure there are, so if anyone can provide, I'd be delighted - but I think this clearly refers to Rand experiencing the sensation of seeing Mat in his minds eye for a moment.**

Rand's started in Lord of Chaos, in the box when he was kidnapped, but they could've been a hallucination then (IE: we'd better bet on them not being for now). The first real cases started in A Crown of Swords, and continued afterwards.

**If he can see Rand, and Rand can see him, who's to say they couldn't communicate with one another? It's much more convenient than traveling, especially in the heat of battle or if you happened to be shielded.**

The problem is that it doesn't seem to be mutual at the same time; IE: when Rand sees Mat or Perrin, it doesn't seem like Mat and Perrin both see Rand then, as well. They have to think/say/hear about each other for them to occur. We have no reference for the colors coming up consciously by Rand, Mat, or Perrin unless you want to say that them saying the others name's is that (which is not what I mean).

So, it's good for seeing other people's situation at the moment (technically could be better, but it's focused on the person being seen) but it doesn't seem to be mutual.

**Curious aside: anyone have a quote of Perrin seeing Mat, or Mat seeing Perrin, or is it limited to them seeing Rand?**

I was just wondering this myself. As far as I can remember, Mat and Perrin both have not seen each other in their colors -- they have only seen Rand. Now, Rand I know has seen both Mat and Perrin because we see this happen in Knife of Dreams (they occur right after each other: Mat's stuff, then Perrin's stuff).

Leafburner: 2006-03-12

Fair comments. I know it's a long shot, but if Rand and Mat for example were to think of one another at the same time, they would each be seeing a real-time picture of the other. like a video phone.

JollyW89: 2006-03-13

One of the problems i would have with that is if Morgese did reveal herself (which i doubt) she would not take control of the armies.

#1 she has already abdicated the thrown.

#2 she knows how good of a leader Perrin is and even if she wanted to lead would the Wheel let her?

#3 Even with the Whitecloaks that Galad has who says they would allie wioth ppl who channel, did they change enough to let one lead them?

The Fading Light: 2006-03-16

About Elayne and her children... From what I can tell in the books she is (at most) only 3 months along into her pregnancy so I don't see how she can give birth to viable children at this stage using your theory unless the reunion of Mat, Rand and Perrin takes over 6 months.

My personal view is that in the next book the Last Battle will occur halfway through the book but what will mark the true end of the age will be the birth of Elayne’s twins. (I do remember the mention of two Heroes of the Horn that were twins who are connected to the ending of ages in WoT, but for the life of me I can't remember their names).

JamieK: 2006-03-19

about mat and perrin seeing each other: didnt perrin catch a glimpse of mat sitting on a carriage? i have a vague memory of him being confused my mats clothing, but then pushing the image away.

Callandor: 2006-03-19

No, that was Rand:

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm
A scratching at the door brought his head around and made Min shift her stance. He suspected she had slipped a throwing knife out of her sleeve and was hiding it behind her wrist. The woman carried more knives tucked about her than Thorn Merrilin had. Or Mat. Colors whirled in his head, almost resolving into . . . what? A man on a wagon seat? Not the face that sometimes appeared in his thoughts, anyway, and the scene was gone in an instant, without any of the dizziness that accompanied the face.

Zalis: 2006-03-20

On the topic of Mat not seeing Perrin and vice versa. I can't recall whether they have or not.

But you've got to remember that the colors most often appear when other people mention Rand. And why would one of Mat's current companions have reason to mention Perrin? Most of them don't even know who Perrin is.

icspots: 2006-03-21

KOD Chapter 12 "A Manufactory"

"Mat would be right at home with this lot, he [Perrin] thought, watching them laugh over good tosses and groan over bad. Those colors spun in his head, and for an instant he glimpsed Mat riding off a road into forest followed by a line of mounted folk and packhorses. An instant only, because he dashed the image aside without so much as a thought to why Mat was going into the woods or who was with him."

Obviously Perrin and Mat can see eachother through the color swirls, only I think this is the only time so far.

Elan Morin Tedronai 21: 2006-03-22

As far as I can remember, there's only one instance of Perrin seeing Mat.

In [KoD, Chapter 12, A Manufactory]Perrin says:

"Mat would be right at home with this lot, he thought, watching them laugh over good tosses and groan over bad. Those colors spun in his head, and for an instant he glimpsed Mat riding off a road into forst followed by a line of mounted folk and packhorses. An instant only, because he dashed the image aside without so much as a thought to why Mat was going into the woods or who was with him."

I don't think we've ever seen Mat have a vision of Perrin, but if Perrin can see Mat, then it's more than likely Mat can see Perrin too.

monkey: 2006-03-27

The interesting thing with these colours is that they seem to be in real time.

could it possibly be a link between their dreams somehow manifesting itself in the waking world?

my reason for thinking this, is Rand also sees another guy in the same swirling colours. Sorry don't have books to hand for quotes etc. but you get the impression it is Mordin (he mentions the guy he crossed paths with in shadar logoth, who i'm presuming is mordin).

As we know from the first book, ishamel had a link to the three, in which they were sharing dreams. It seems quite neat that there could be a link between these four again.

Darkshadow: 2006-03-27

all that Ishamael was doing was touch their minds while they were asleep. it is something even the wise ones know how to do, though its used for evil purposes. The link now is something else since it is when they are awake and looking at them from a thrid person view. Could it be that they are glimpsing a piece of the pattern concerning the other two??

Ishamael666: 2006-03-27

Monkey:

Rand doesn't see Moridin in the swirling colors, which is a ver specific effect described when the ta'veren think of each other. The Rand/Moridin thing is random and not accompanied by Technicolor.

Darkshadow: What relevance does Ishy's manipulating the three's dreams have to do with this?

Darkshadow: 2006-03-28

Ishamael666,

the relevance is that by comparing what Ishy was doing before (manipulating the three's dreams) and what really happens now, can i corredct monkey's thoughts

"As we know from the first book, ishamel had a link to the three, in which they were sharing dreams. It seems quite neat that there could be a link between these four again"

.... the swirling colors do not link Ishy to the three nor do they link Rand and Moridin, as every example of the swirling color is not the same as the descriptions of rand seeing moridin

Saidar Haran: 2006-04-06

TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 15 - In Need of a Bellfounder

"He grimaced and rubbed at his forehead as a faint rush of colors seemed to swirl inside his head. That happened lately whenever he though about EITHER MAN"

Saidar Haran: 2006-04-06

Forgot the point of my post: Mat had just thought of Rand and Perrin, and mentions that colors swirl whenever he thinks of Rand OR Perrin - therefore he could see Perrin.

Fitz: 2006-08-04

I'm new here, this is my first post, so forgive me if I offend custom.

About the post, I was thinking that Rand seeing through the others' eyes might figure in with channelling.

We have been told that a person needs to be able to see to channel the One Power. I don't know if there is any mention of this being tested over a distance (would have to be with a telescope, to be a fair test).

Since Rand can see the situation the other two are in, might he be able to channel via this vision?

From the figure of the Fisher King that Moridin is playing with, the indication is that Rand will lose the use of his eyes at some point. And from KoD, it seems he might have made a start on this already.

Could Rand's being able to 'see' the other two become critical at some point, to enable him to channel where needed during the last battle?

JakOShadows: 2006-08-04

Fitz:

It might be possible for that to be done, but he would have to know where it is and then be able to properly weave the attack blind. That would be hard to accomplish from outside the situation.

Anubis: 2006-08-04

Fits: First of all, welcome to Theoryland, you are a breath of fresh air, most first posts could be described as idiotic at best, and a first post bringing up something that has not already been discussed is a true rarity.

I hadn't considered Rand being able to channel where Mat or Perrin are. I would suppose it would depend on how RJ writes the channeling rules. If Rand has to extend the weave halfway across the world to Mat or Perrin it could be difficult but it might be workable. Interesting food for thought.

About the Channeling where you can see thing. Blind people can channel, though it would be very difficult for them to learn the weaves, and also difficult to place them. I imagine that not being able to channel where you can't see means not so much a lack of ability to do so, but rather a sever lack of it being safe. I'm sure a channeler could walk around blindfolded throwing weaves everywhere, it would just probably end horribly.

Fitz: 2006-08-04

JakOShadows,

How do you mean blind? He would be seeing the situation through the visions (swirling colors).

I guess the question is whether Rand can see the flows of the One Power in these visions.

Callandor: 2006-08-06

**I guess the question is whether Rand can see the flows of the One Power in these visions.**

So far, no he cannot. But we haven't been given any real reason to think he couldn't, except that only channelers can see flows (the visions appear to be as if from another person standing around watching one of the ta'veren).

In regards to channeling, I would say he could do it by going off what he is given, but it would have to be with one of the ta'veren near to Rand. Proximity to the channeler for both knowledge of where he will be channeling at (which is vital), and so that it will have an effect in that area anyway (Rand channeling at where Mat is now isn't going to do much). I personally don't think he will ever see One Power flows in the visions, but then he doesn't totally have to. Rand knows the flows of many weaves such as balefire, and Arrows of Fire, that ultimately depend more on your target itself than having to see specifically how the threads all go. For those weaves, having done them before when he could see, he should be able to now.

(As well, Rand isn't truly blind yet just so everyone is clear. Vision impaired due to the watery look, and the increased brightness, but he's not truly blind of course -- hence why he can still give descriptions even after the attack. Definately a step towards it, and it might possibly get worse.)

JakOShadows: 2006-08-07

Fitz:

yes, that's what I meant. It was an interesting idea, but I personally think he would need to know exactly where he is in relation to Mat and Perrin. As well be able weave his attacks with out actually seeing them. And from what the books say, that is fairly hard to manage. But it is technically possible with a certain amount of luck.

Karede: 2006-08-07

Welcome Fitz, I'm pretty new too. When Rand was locked in the chest by the Tower Aes Sedai he was able to break through their shield by "feeling" his way across it to wear the shield was being held. I believe that needing to see to channel is one weakness of Aes Sedai, such as needing to use throwing motions to chuck fireballs. As for being able to channel wherever Mat and Perrin are, who knows? Do flows have to extend from one's hands or can they simply appear? I believe we have seen enough cases (lightning, shields from lightning, Deathgates) where the flows are create a distance away from the channeler. There is never a mention of having to reach out with every use of the power. There are some that require such an action such as shielding someone from the source. However, no one has to reach out to make a Gateway or other things. Now being able to see would allow Rand to know how to place things when he wants to channel. If Rand needs Mat or Perrin, could he think about them, and then make a Gateway that will bring them right to him?

Fitz: 2006-08-08

Anubis, Thanks for the welcome and your kind words.

Thanks for the info on channeling blind. I had thought it was impossible, but this way seems more subtle.

As for channeling where Mat and Perrin are, I could see it two ways. 1) They are way off and Rand is able to channel through the vision somehow, so he is effectively channeling right next to himself, 2) Distance counts, but during a critical battle his ability to channel behind or around something will be a deciding factor (or even just to see a complex weave that his blindness would make impossible).

Sampson: 2006-08-10

I have a problem with the link/visions.

If it is a link between taveren, then they shouldn’t be from a 3rd party view. They should be looking through the others eyes.

If this link is going to evolve into something more like being able to communicate, then the 3rd party “visual” view has already messed it up.

Unless this “ability/Link” is some how networked through Tel’aran’rhiod (i.e. windows in Perrin's wolf dreams).

But I can now see how it might be used, with the suggestion from Fitz via the Dune series. At some crucial moment of dire need Mat or Perrin “see’s” (thanks to the camera view and angle – that dame pattern is cheating:)) that Rand is in trouble, one of them suddenly turns and throws their weapon as soon as the would be killer is ready to take out Rand.

Callandor: 2006-08-13

**If it is a link between taveren, then they shouldn’t be from a 3rd party view. They should be looking through the others eyes.**

Not necessarily. One can just say it's a link about ta'veren, that one has to be ta'veren to be in on.

Sampson: 2006-08-14

So what, who, how is it decided which angle they will see who ever is on the other side of the link? Should they be able to see the "scene" from the front view, left side, right side etc..? How close should they see? Be able to see nose hairs or the whole room? I mean this is a fantasy series, so I can accept allot of stuff that really doesn't make sense. But this "taveren" link doesn't make sense.

It is like the pattern created a stealth drone camera, that nobody else can see and it can not be controlled (at least so far).

Karede: 2006-08-15

The third party idea seems to be the correct one based on Mat's quote in KoD about seeing things worse than kissing. (sorry I don't have the books in front of me, but it takes place during his trip to buy the razor if that helps) The way he describes the whole scene makes it sound as though he is peeking in the bedroom through a "window", not through Rand's eyes.

Callandor: 2006-08-15

**So what, who, how is it decided which angle they will see who ever is on the other side of the link? Should they be able to see the "scene" from the front view, left side, right side etc..? How close should they see? Be able to see nose hairs or the whole room?**

1. Given what the link is about, it's not a terribly hard assumption to accept that it's "the Wheel" choosing these things, but it is as of now not truly known.

2. Don't know quite what you mean. They just see it. If they can move it on their own, that remains speculation now.

3. From what can be guessed now, it seems roughly 5-15 feet "away" from the ta'veren. Rand could see Mat and co. leaving into the woods. He could see Perrin and others in an inn. Mat could see both Rand and Min naked. I believe it was Perrin that saw Rand with Cadsuane and presumbably Logain.

So it's not that the "camera" is right in their face. And whether they can move it on their own again is just unknown.

**It is like the pattern created a stealth drone camera, that nobody else can see and it can not be controlled (at least so far).**

Don't see how it doesn't make sense, since you were able to make quite a good comparison for it. It's a strange ability, yes; but so are many things in the series.

Belcyrlis: 2010-10-02

Another example of Perrin seeing Mat:

KoD, Chapter 4, A Deal
"In any trade, you needed to make the other fellow think he was getting something extra, as Mat's father often said. Colors swirled in Perrin's head, and for a brief instant he thought he saw Mat talking to a small dark woman. He shook off the image. Here and now, today, were all that mattered. Faile was all that mattered."