Tamyrlin: 2010-08-28

Scaw, thanks for submitting your theory. I don't have a particular criticism of the ideas as presented - for some reason, the Last Battle isn't something I've felt compelled to dissect. Generally, I've always been of the mind that Jordan intentionally gave us a significant amount of prophecies related to Rand which can be interpreted in many ways as to support a variety of potential outcomes. And that he never planned to tell us which of those outcomes was the correct interpretation, regarding the final status of Rand. However, that isn't directly related to what you had to say. I'm sure others will come along for commentary, but I did want to thank you for inspiring me to write a theory on Aviendha's babies...I think I might have figured something out. Coming soon.

gelb: 2010-08-29

Isn't Rand part of the Andor Royal line as it is? and being married to Elayne would make any babies he had with her or anyone else part of the line, too?

shadar: 2010-08-30

"The blood could then simply refer to birth which is also a bloody affair" Not really. That would be Elayne's blood - not his.

Scaw: 2010-08-31

@Tam As I write in the introduction, those "multiple meanings" are what I am aiming at. If you consider different prophecies that refer to the same event (e.g. the LB), you can exclude some possible interpretations and say which are the likeliest, which I have tried to do. I am looking forward to your theory on Aviendah's babies, I thought about that too but could not come up with anything good.

@Gelb Yes, he is. His mother was the Daughter-Heir of Andor and fled into the blight where she became a Maiden and met Rands daddy. I personally think Elaida's foretelling regarding the importance of the royal line of Andor has thus been fulfilled with Rands birth. But I mentioned other possibilities nonetheless.

@Shadar It is "his blood" because he is the father of Elayne's twins. What I wrote about birth being a "bloody affair" is somewhat misleading come to think of it, because as to my reading the blood that "stains the rock" is the blood of the Aiel, not the blood of birth. The babies would be the blood that "free[s] men from the Shadow", which does not necessarily imply that the babies will literally bleed.

Tenesmus: 2010-09-05

You didn't mention Alivia in your discussion. She is important...somehow, and is supposed to help Rand die.

One thing I'm pretty sure about is that "the boat" with the three girls on it is actually the three of them "Skimming" somewhere with Rand's body. I can't possibly guess the circumstances, but it has been foreshadowed a bit. Aviendha's problems with Traveling would necessitate Skimming since Elayne's channeling is erratic during pregnancy, and Min can't channel. So if Rand was hurt bad, or killed, and the three of them needed to get somewhere quickly... Avi can't make a gateway, Elayne is prego and can't either... so Skimming would be the way to go, and what do people always make for Skimming platforms? Boats! Just saying...

xendarus: 2010-09-06

I think we're missing some folks if we're discussing the blood reference. The Aiel are from his father's side, but Moraine is his cousin, and Galad is his brother. Galad's reformation of the Brotherhood will play a role, and he is his closest relative.

Also, some thoughts on Rand having to die in order to live. Well, Lews and Rand share the same soul, but are two different personalities being that they haven't shared any life experiences, except that they both have fought the shadow. Lews was a hold over from several turns of the wheel ago, and needed to finally be put to rest. So, in essence, since they're technically the same person, Lews had to die in order for Rand to continue in this Age.

Lews was necessary to carry on until he was spun out again so his next incarnation could learn from his mistakes. After all, In Lews' Age, he failed to seal the Dark One completely, and he caused the blow back onto the male half of the power. He had to carry on so Rand could learn from his mistakes and not repeat it. From what I remember, Rand has to touch the Dark One in order to seal him properly. Lews wasn't able to do so.

So, I believe Rand will push through into the Bore and touch the Dark One, sealing him in properly, and then Matt will blow the horn and summon him. It's been said many times that "time" doesn't necessarily make sense in the world that waits for the horn to be blown. Sometimes effect comes before cause if you catch my meaning. Anyway, it's 4am and I wanted to respond to your post since I really liked it.

kivo: 2010-09-06

X: Moiraine and Rand are not related; Moiraine is from the Damodred line, Rand is from the Mantear line. Galad is the union of these two lines; but Moiraine and Elayne are on the Damodred half of his family, and Rand is on the Mantear half.

Homeschool: 2010-09-07

@Scaw - Regarding the twice-dawning day, I think it more likely to be an eclipse than explosive flashes. There have been several hints and references to the sun being darkened, either during the last battle or at his death, and it follows the Christ parallel, the sun being darkened at the time of his death as well. Book 1 mentions a dream of Rand's where dream-Thom references the Karaethon Cycle, "for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land." Darkness at his death could be a direct result of the bond between Dragon and land.

With the sun covered, there would be night at noon (darkness in the middle of the day, with a twilight immediately preceding it (as the light is slowly blocked), followed by a second dawn as the light returns.

As to whether that eclipse lasts longer than the normal few seconds - well, it may or may not, depending on RJ's need for a seemingly never-ending night. A Memory of Light sounds like the nostalgic afterward, but what if it instead refers to unending night, and the loss of the sun for a time? The temporary victory of the Shadow (with Rand's death), and the signifier of his return (when the light also returns.)

Taking this further, the Karaethon Cycle also states that "The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken," speaking of the 7 seals on the Dark One's prison. Both the prophecies and Nynaeve's weather-sense refer to an unseen storm - what if the unseen storm is a power of the Dark One, where at the breaking of the seals, clouds cover the sky, creating an artificial night? Not a moon eclipse, but an eclipse of the entire sky, blocking the light from the entire world.

Clyve: 2010-09-08

I've always taken the "twice to live and twice to die" in the quote with all the double herons and dragons and so forth to refer to the lives and deaths of LTT and then Rand, as both are the Dragon.

terez: 2010-09-08

Perival Mantear is Rand's cousin.

Scaw: 2010-09-08

@Tenesmus
I did not mention Alivia because I do not know what to make of her. She may help Rand die anywhere. I rather see her help at the LB, but that is only a guess.

I like your "Skimming" idea, seems possible. Why would the "boat" be so important anyway? I don't know how that would alter my theory. Maybe after the funeral they skim to get somewhere fast, maybe to Nyn to heal him.

@Xendarus
True about Galad being a half-brother, I overlooked that. I still think the Aiel fits better, as they often seem to refer to blood when they mean heritage "Of the blood, but not raised by the blood".

I do not think "to die" can mean to get rid of LTT. You have to decide whether they are one and the same or two separate beings. Only if they are separate can one of them die. But that would not make "to live you must die" true because if you say LTT is a separate entity, then it would say: "to live, he must die".

And would we not all be pretty pissed if "to live you must die" simply meant do psychotherapy? ;) I know, that is all not fully conclusive but there are other discussions about this.

@Homeschool
The eclipse was also my first idea. It could also be thick clouds covering the sky, I agree. I like the explosives idea because that is man-made.

@Clyve
Why then "twice"? LTT/Rand/Dragon have already lived multiple lives and died multiple times.

The Angry Druid: 2010-09-09

Good theory, and a lot of nice work.

Though I think you are dead wrong on the prophecy meaning/stating his blood will be shed twice.

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed"

This is fairly straightforward. Twice modifies dawns, not blood. Basic English.

Now, if one is thinking of the Aiel as the "blood" then each death would be a new spilling. And certainly his blood could be spilled more than once on that day (and likely will be in that context). But the prophecy speaks to two dawns, not his blood being spilled twice.

Lemmyone: 2010-09-09

Something that just popped into my head concerning the birth/children prophecies - does Avi& Elayne's sisterhood somehow fit into the prophecies in some unforeseen way. The concept was 'planted' early in the Aiel plot line - has it been used to fruitition or is does it play a further role in the story?

isamu237: 2010-09-10

Along with consideration of Galad as Rand/Dragon's "blood," remember he has another close living relative in his uncle Luc/Isam. I hope this won't be the case, but Luc/Isam could fulfill some kind of Gollum type role to satisfy this prophecy.

Shinto Z: 2010-09-11

I cannot see the Rand/Moridin link being severed pre-LB, or at least not Rand's use of the TP. After all, the only way that LTT and the Hundred Companions sealed the bore was with sai'din. That tainted the male half. Can't taint the male half this time. Can't taint the female half either. Rand must use the TP to seal the bore, tainting the TP, sealing the bore in a way that sai'din and sai'dar cannot see, using weaves that mortals aren't supposed to handle....

This could also be what is odd about Aviendha's Quadruplets. She will become pregnant by Rand, post his use of the TP. So it is likely that they will have some use of it, which would indeed be quite odd, and really the only notable odd thing that could happen. After all, use of the power, foretelling, viewings, wolf dreams, luck, old blood... all these things are normal to the ta'veren bunch.

"The babies would be the blood that 'free[s] men from the Shadow'" implies their use of the TP without the blessing/curse of the DO.

Peace.

Zarquan: 2010-09-13

I suspect that the whole "Die & Live Again" thing will be literal, as will the "Blood on the Rocks." Nynaeve has been obsessing over Healing death itself. There is power in Shayol Gul, and reality is twisted there. Things are possible there that are not possible elsewhere. The Dark One brings people back to life, so maybe Nynaeve can do it, too.

So, Rand dies in a bloody, bloody fashion ("It's surprising how much blood there is in a human body," to paraphrase), and Nynaeve Heals him, probably dying in the process.

xendarus: 2010-09-13

Kivo, granted, I can't remember the book, but I do remember Moiraine going through one of Elfinn doors and revisting several outcomes. One was which she took Rand as a lover and then later found out his lineage, thereby finding out that he was indeed her cousin. I believe the word disasterous was used to describe this union because of it. Elayne and the previous Queen were not related, though Elayne's Mother, Morgase, married the Prince since the Queen went AWOL to Dragonmount. So, Galad and Rand had the same mother, but different fathers. Through the Queen's line, he is related to Moiraine.

I dunno, I'm still kinda stuck on "to live you must die" thing. LTT and Rand are part of the same fractured soul. I believe that laying LTT to rest was letting him die, thereby healing his soul, for a time anyways.

The premise of the story is that this battle has happened for eons. The Wheel turns to another Age and keeps grinding on, but things may be different this time. Time itself is in flux I believe, one such example is that Birgette was spun out ahead of Olvier. When Birgette remembers meeting up with her destined lover, he's always older than she is...now it's different. The Dragon always keeps the Dark One sealed up, but never completely. It's already been stated that Rand will have to touch the DO to complete the seal for good. Being that Rand is the Avatar of the Creator, he will cancel out the DO, kinda like when anti-matter and matter touch..but in doing so, he will be destroyed. If this were to happen, I'm not sure what would happen to the Wheel...Once the cycle is broken, there is no other Age for the Wheel to turn to....I mean, they wouldn't be following the Pattern anymore, because there always has been a Dragon and a DO...It wouldn't just destroy the Pattern, but it would be the equivalent of scrapping everything, and started again with a different fabric. Gotta love paradoxes. Anyway, it's a lot to wrap your head around, which is why we all love the series :-D

wooandwow: 2010-09-14

Thought provoking theory, I have comments

First there would be another interpretation of the blood references, they could refer to his personal and emotional sacrifices that he made.

Second couldn't this quote mean that an eclipse will occur on that day, hence two "dawns". An eclipse is a common event in mythology/religion which would fit the typical habit of WOT to make references to this sort of stuff. This would be an alternative to the theory that his blood will be shed over two days. Quote 2 [TGH, Ch. 26]: "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Thirdly I have some issues around the discussion that he can die so he can live, basically I support the argument this is referring to LTT dieing so Rand can live and defeat the dark lord.

Fourthly, in terms of method Rand chooses to form an alliance with the Seanchan I had always supposed that Mat would make that happen in one way or another. Especially since he knows both parties and rand appeared to have rediscovered himself (and humility) at the end of the most recent book.

Anyway not long to wait now....

wotfreak222: 2010-09-14

@xendarus....wow....dude, reread the entire series...please! First, Moiraine went to Ruidean and went through the rings...that is where she received her "warning" about sharing Rand's bed.

Second, Olver is NOT Gaidal Cain. I believe this theory was debunked by RJ himself some time ago. While it is true that he is usually older than Birgitte, that is not always the case. Time is different in the World of Dreams, true, but not to the extent that you're implying. Gaidal Cain has been spun out, but there is no nine-year difference in time. The fact that Gaidal Cain has been spun out does not mean that he will have any impact on the Last Battle at all. He could have been spun out to correct some error in the Pattern that will not cause any problems until well after the Last Battle. While you could spend an hour in the WoD and find that an entire night has passed in the real world (and the reverse could be true as well), the difference in time certainly does not span years.

Grig: 2010-09-14

@xendarus
As wotfreak said, the viewing Moiraine had was through the rings in Rhuidean. Also, there was no mention of "lineage" or finding out "he was indeed her cousin". She simply said that the lives where she took him as a lover ended in disaster. As has been pointed out, they are not related by blood in any immediate sense (any closer than he is related to Elayne, anyway).

wotluvr: 2010-09-14

Before I begin I'd like to beg pardon for my lack of direct quotes and references. I did not take the time to double check the exact details of my idea/theory so I will fully admit that I could have a couple of things skewed in my memory.

As for the Originial Theory, I am inclined to agree with the Aiel fulfilling the Blood being spilt on SG. I'd never thought of that before and give thanks to the OP for that bit of insight.

However... could the, "to live you must die" statement have reference to more than Rand's corporeal form? I think it could have reference to the fact that Rand must die in the flesh for his soul to live on.

RJ seemed to use the philosopher Rand associated with (the one who thought Min was pretty) to throw out the idea that the war with the DO goes in cycles - some of which contained a populace ignorant to the existence of the DO. The Age of Legends appears to be one of these cycles from Rand's account of his visions/flashbacks in Rhiudean. For such to happen, there would logically have to be no Bore and therefore no Seals to cover it. Such would imply and complete and perfect closing of the DO's prison. This is apparently done by Rand touching the Dark One with the Power directly, right? Presumably, a large amount of it. I think Min's viewing of Alivia could enter into the picture here considering Callandor's requirements for safe handling. If I remember right, there needs to be 2 women linked in a circle with the male handling Callandor for it to be properly and safely used, right? And if my memory serves, Alivia is one of the strongest female Power-wielders on Rand's side, correct?

So basically, I'm guessing that at some point Rand wields Callandor while linked with Alivia to seal the DO away properly. Touching the DO kills him, thus fulfilling both the viewing that Alivia would help him die, and the prophecy from the Fox-people (Aelfin?) that for Rand to live he must die - for his soul to live on his body must die because if he does not then the Dark One will destroy the pattern (as revealed by Moridin in TGS).

I realized this is all very flimsy evidence, but I'm not sure worried about proving its accuracy and authenticity as an argument as I am about there being any evidence to contradict this theory.

caffiend98: 2010-09-15

I've always taken for granted that "Twice dawns the day" means Balefire will make the day occur twice. Literally. Since we've seen Balefire used at least three times to replay events (Mat and Rand vs. the Hounds, Camelyn, Graendal), it seems plausible that it would happen again.

mepeyton: 2010-09-15

I know that Cadsuane has said that there needs to be three people 1 male 2 female to use callandor. But the Quote is "He shall hold a blade of light in his hand and the three shall become one" I am of the assumption that the three will be one of each power. Alivia-saidar Narishima(he who follows after)-saidin(sp?) and Rand -True Power...Rand takes over Moradin merges with him to use the true-power in the circle or the circle consists of rand, moridin, and alivia. Either way the three need to wield all three powers to truely reform the prison. The rubble must be cleared. I don't think it will be sealing the bore but reforming the pattern to preven the DO from being able to touch it...

Scaw: 2010-09-16

Thanks for all the comments. I will not address all of them.

@wooandwow
Concerning the eclips:, yes, please read one of my earlier comments, smb else already said that.

@wotluvr
If you read my theory carefully, you'll see that I refer to this possibility. To quote myself: "The fourth sentence has two likely interpretations: (c) Rand will die and wait for another turning of the Wheel to be reborn or (d) he will somehow die and live again right after the LB (there are more interpretations, I will get back to those)."

Remember that for his soul to live on and be reborn in another Turning of the Wheel it is not required that the Prison is returned to its original state (although it might happen, I agree).

@caffiend98
That is highly unlikely. For two dawns to appear via balefire the entire Wheel would have to be turned back, which would require such a huge amount of balefire that the Pattern would probably unravel.

wotluvr: 2010-09-16

@scaw Oh quite right. I suppose I'd forgotten than you mentioned it by the time I finished reading all the various comments; I don't think it's been restated since your theory, either. Well then I suppose I was really just throwing in my support behind you, eh? lol

Myth: 2010-09-16

Ok all. Let me please start by saying it has been over a year since I have read the books. I love them but life goes on. My point in this is, with other books, school, work, and life, I may not remember everything or things perfectly or in the right order so please forgive me if I butcher things.

Also, let me say that to me, prophecies often have multiple meanings and just because they seem to be fulfilled in one instance, does not mean it wont fit in later on and still be fulfilled later again.

That said lets start, I wanted to address somethings because I really liked seeing people so interested in the prophesies and trying to interpret them.

Xendarus, I believe by know it has been shown that Moiraine is in no way related to Rand. She is however, related to Rands brother Galad. Galads father was related to her, and his father is not related to Rand. I always found it amusing how everything was interrelated, with everyone being somehow involved with or related to another.

Next WooandWow, I was happy to read that somebody else interpreted the events of the last book the same as I did. I believe we will see a lot of the old Rand again, not totally, but more than in later books. I think he will bow to her, but I'm confused because I think it said he will kneel to her? I don't think it will involve Mat because I think he will be occupied the entire book. I like the Beggar idea and think it will be something like that. Another thing not mentioned that is similar is Rand is supposed to bow to the Mother, who is Eugwen(sp, like I said its been awhile and I am at school and don't have the books on me). I think it was in a vision by Elida that it says the Dragon will bow to the Mother. Finally, bow, does not necessarily mean it literally. You can bow to someones wisdom, you could bow for punishment, equals would bow to each other but it would be an inclining of the head. Idk just thoughts, I'm probably way off.

Now things I wanted to mention myself, either as things to consider how they will relate and shape future events, or directly to the prophecies, or just questions I have.

One thing I think was mentioned in TGS was that Sammeul is still alive and personally I think it would be fatal, if it is true, to think he wont play a part in all of this.

Next, just something I always thought, could be wrong on all accounts, was that Rand and Avs kids would be Dragons. He is the Dragon Reborn yet there are no physical dragons any longer. I don't even take this one to seriously, what I always thought their 4 kids would be were the next gods. I will explain why I think there will be a need for more gods later on. On a just thought of note relating to their kids, they could be the rebirth of 4 major characters that may die, for instance Rand may be reborn as one of his children, Perrin if he dies etc.

The of the blood not raised by blood thing could refer to Rand being of the Royal blood and not being raised that way. I believe it is common knowledge now that it is the Aiel but I wanted to throw it out there because I never dismiss a possibility until it is absolutely proven wrong, like at the end of the series.

I personally have always believed in the merger of LTT and Rand theory. If we look at it, it was getting to a point there where LTT was going to take over the body, thereby killing Rand, yet Rand won. However, LTT is a representation of a past life, so while he is separate he is also the same. Therefore he does kill an aspect of himself. Idk just my view.

Where are you all seeing the whole, Rand has to touch the DO thing? I don't remember that. Also, I was under the assumption that this Last Battle would be different because this time Rand intended to kill the DO. This leads into what I think Rand and Avs kids will be. The DO and the Creator are like two sides of the same coin, and if one dies the other would to I feel. So those kids might be the ones to take their place. That might be freakishly far-fetched, if so apologies.

Lastly two more points, one to die could mean, as discussed in other ways, a non physical death. It could be the loss of the power. That would work into the thing with Mat and the age of technology. Finally, it needs to be considered that the DO and Moridin both want Rand alive and have tried to convert him to the dark side so to speak, and the whole let the lord of chaos rein could be Rand, because he creates more chaos than anyone.

Anyway that's my stuff. I look forward to hearing from you all.

Paaran Disen: 2010-09-16

Well, this is a great theory, but I think you missed one obvious point, and then one somewhat obscure mythological/religious reference. First off, I will assume that everything that has been said about Aliva in the comments is not valid. Now the prophecy for Aliva is that she is supposed to help Rand die. Now if we go back to the interpretation of the prophecy where he fake dies, then this is where Aliva should fit in. Aliva will not help Rand to actually die. She will instead help Rand to fake his death, and thus, die. If he is only fake dieing, either from wounds, someone is bound to discover. If this person is Aliva, she could then play along with it. If she did that, then she would be helping him to "die" his fake death. My second point here is that the boat is metaphorical. In ancient Scandinavia, who believed in the Norse gods, dead warriors were burned. But they were burned on a ship. So the body was placed on a ship with their possessions and set on fire, like the ship was a bier. Depending on where, the ship was then set out on a river or let burn. The idea was the warrior would then sail the ship to Valhalla, which is their heaven. So the whole mention of a ship could also be a metaphor for a bier, as RJ, as has liked to be discussed before here, uses a lot of references to religion and mythology. Now my ideas are probably wrong, as I based them entirely off this theory, having not read the books in awhile. But I just thought I should put them out there, especially how we have been shunning the Alivia part out.

maroftis: 2010-09-17

Just a quick comment but several people have discussed Rand "faking his death". Who is if faking it for the DO would not fall for this not to mention that Padin Fain would probally be aware if Rand actually died or not. I am pretty sure it will be an actual death and his spirit will be bound to the wheel and alowed to be reborn. Nynaeve ripping him out of Tel'aran'rhiod would doom any future attempts to battle the DO because then the dragon would no longer be bound to the wheel. The only way I could see a possibility of this would be if ripping him out would somehow allow the dragon to seal the DO for eternity which I don't see happening. The world is in balance with good and evil struggling. He may seal the bore but there will always be future generations that can reopen it.

Grig: 2010-09-17

One thing I think was mentioned in TGS was that Sammeul is still alive and personally I think it would be fatal, if it is true, to think he wont play a part in all of this.

Jordan went on the record stating flat out that Sammael is dead.

Where are you all seeing the whole, Rand has to touch the DO thing? I don't remember that.

In TGS, a major plot point was when LTT told Rand that saidin was tainted because "something had to touch the DO in order to seal him", and that something being saidin allowed him to counterattack and taint it.

I'll join the people I've seen around here in saying that "die" in prophecy referring to anything except actual death seems like a really bad cop-out with no precedent (at least precedent in prophecies where die didn't mean literal death could prime the reader for the possibility, which hasn't happened).

cindy: 2010-09-17

not sure how it's connected to the last battle, but when i read the part about something odd about the quadruplets, i thought that two of her babies would be elayne's. i think if elayne dies (elayne repeatedly makes the point that min foresaw her surviving to have the twins, but there's nothing about surviving after their birth), the children might either just become avi's (some effect of sister or warder bond), or may be adopted by some kind of aiel power ceremony that makes them actually avi's. i think spontaneous, surviving quadruplets in this pre-industrial society, even with the power assisting and taverenism warping probability, is kind of unlikely. but i'm new here, and maybe this has already been debunked?

terez: 2010-09-17

@Paaran Disen - Thanks for pointing out the bit on Norse tradition. I've mentioned elsewhere the Sea Folk tradition of doing everything on the water, including birth and death, and I think this also might tie into the boat. But then there is Arthurian legend, and the three women who bear King Arthur's body to the Isle of Avalon to be healed of its wounds (even though he was dead). It seems that the boat will be literal, and I doubt it will match up with any of the legends exactly. I don't really have a good answer for 'why the boat yet', but I highly doubt it's a metaphor only. My best bet is that he'll die and his body be burned, and that the body on the boat is the one that was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. The three women are important because they will have to bond him again to save him from dying when he is ripped out.

Ann Kalagon: 2010-09-17

the mourning referred to in the twice dawns the day prophecy could also be the day Lews Therin died. He was mourning Ilyena, and all the destruction he had done, when he intentionally died there while also creating the Dragonmount. Rand is born there, but it would have been his mother's blood shed on his birth, when she died (perhaps not only from childbirth but from wounds taken in battle).

I am expecting that some elements are not going to be predictable.

Who knows but what Avi's children may be channeling as tots? Expect surprises.

Dorko: 2010-09-18

Lews Therin and Rand separate when the horn is sounded again. I have thought this for many years as Rand is but a vessel for Lews and it is evident they have to part, especially when Lews suggest they have to die. Lews wants to die though Rand doesn't seem to hold that POV. I don't know how this will work out for Mat, who has multiple memories going on in his head that seem to override his own thoughts at times. Perrin is a wolfman for life as is Elyas Machera. That seems to be an old "magic" that has been renewed with the Manetheren bloodline Perrin is surely descended from. All of the Emond's field kids but Rand have that in them and is most likely the reason for their superior powers in whatever they do do. Maybe it was the "summer of love" that brought them and their strengths all together. How it happened to be may never be answered in a book.

Paaran Disen: 2010-09-19

@Marofits- When I was talking about Rand "faking his death", I was trying to continue the discussion into that line that began in the theory. It just makes sense to me that this is how Alivia could help him die. The only other way would be for her to kill him somehow, but if you have a different idea, I would love to hear it. @Terez- You are welcome for that piece of Norse tradition. I agree with you that it won't be a total adherence to one mythology, and I had forgotten about that part of Arthurian legend. IT still seems to me, however, that it is likely we will follow along a Norse path. An example of this is the Last Battle, which you can directly relate to the battle of Ragnarök. The battle of Ragnarök was seen as the "Last Battle" of Norse mythology, where the armies of good and evil fought. There, major characters and gods died on both sides. In the end the world was destroyed and reborn anew. This is like the Last Battle, or a giant conflict of good vs. evil where we can expect to see many characters die. Also, the Last Battle signifies the end of the Third Age, and the rebirth of the world in the Fourth Age. Now, I am more well versed in Norse Mythology that Arthurian legend, but I can't recall that many parallels here. I would be glad to know if there were more.

Myth: 2010-09-20

@Grig- Thanks for pointing that out, I have not been as in touch with that stuff as you all obviously are, it helps to know that Sammael is for sure dead. And thanks for pointing out the touching thing and what everyone is referring to. I will ponder this and get back to everyone.

@cindy- I dont know if your theory has been debunked yet, but I liked it, interesting twist.

Tenesmus: 2010-09-20

@Terez-To answer "Why the boat?" I believe it has to do with Skimming. If the three girls are trying to get Rand's body someplace, and Elayne can't channel cuz of preggo-ness, and Avi can't make a gateway, well then Skimming is thier only option at that point. How do people Skim? Usually a boat.

xendarus: 2010-09-21

Hey guys, thanks for setting me straight on the Moiraine relation. I told you it's been awhile since I've read the series :-P Anyways, I was thinking on the "Twice dawns the day" prophecy. LTT's title was Lord of the Morning. Morning could also mean Dawn, so I'm wondering if it might have more meaning pertaining to this. Just wanted to get your ideas on this.

terez: 2010-09-21

Aviendha can make a gateway; she just can't make a huge one. And no one has ever Skimmed on a boat that we've seen. Not saying it isn't possible - the theory has been hanging around for years, not that it explains much - just saying your arguments have holes.

Tenesmus: 2010-09-21

@Terez-- I beg to differ, We saw Egwene and Lan Skim on a boat when she was dropping Lan off to Nynaeave. That's when the thought came to me. Aviendha also has experience on a boat with Elayne and Nyna, so she has a reference point in her mind if she needs to think of a Skimming platform in a hurry.

mike727: 2010-09-21

@tenesmus I just logged in to write almost the exact same thing. Aviendha has been on Sea Folk Ships, so would most likely use that as her platform.

@Grig "something had to touch the DO in order to seal him", and that something being saidin allowed him to counterattack and taint it. " LTT had to touch the DO with saidin, just as Rand will have to touch him with something to seal him in. I think you answered your own question.

I like the idea of "Twice Dawns the Day" being : once for mourning, after the LB LTT slays his family, once for birth I think can be the birth of the dragons family. If we take the prophecy as whole literally.

Grig: 2010-09-21

LTT had to touch the DO with saidin, just as Rand will have to touch him with something to seal him in. I think you answered your own question.

Um, it wasn't my question. It was Myth's, which I was intending to answer. I didn't think I needed to spell it out, and I've always found giving hints or raw data more interesting than providing conclusions.

Paaran Disen: 2010-09-21

@Xendarus- You bring up a rather interesting point with the reference to LTT's tittle. What if that part of the prophecy has already been fulfilled? Twice dawns the day as in LTT as the Lord of the Morning, and thus Rand. Once for mourning and once for birth. Well, what if mourning was when LTT died and birth was when Rand was born? I'm not exactly sure what time these events actually happened, but its an interesting concept.

Also, I still do not see why we are so hung up on why the boat. What we need is a clearer picture of the viewing. If the boat is sailing down a river, it can not be Skimming.

Another thing is that yes, Rand has to touch the DO, but what if he used the TP? If he did that, he would be touching the DO with himself, and thus if the DO tainted it, he would taint himself.

terez: 2010-09-22

@Tenesmus - it was a barge. You could say it's a type of boat, but when it's floating in air, it's really just a platform and doesn't actually resemble a boat in any way.

cindy: 2010-09-22

i don't know whether it's skimming or floating on the river, but i'd think the boat's going to tar'valon/avalon. in arthurian legend it's a funeral barge, ya? arthur wasn't faking his death, but he was revived by the tallest of the three queens in the barge in one version. sorry if this is off topic, i'm out of my depth. i just think that although WOT borrows from a lot of myths and legends and religions and popular culture, at the core, it stays awfully close to arthur.

Paaran Disen: 2010-09-22

@Terez and Tenesmus- Does it really matter if it was a barge or a boat? If anything, we have seen that you can choose what you use, but mostly it comes from your subconscious, such as Rand's disk, Rand's platform for invading Caemlyn, and the barge. This means that if they did Skim then they could choose what to skim with.

Scaw: 2010-09-23

Regarding the "Twice dawns the day" prophecy. This clearly cannot refer to LTT.

1. We never had a theory where something has already been fulfilled in a previous age, that just ridicules the whole idea of a prophecy.

2. LTT died "on" Dragonmount, not at Shayol Ghul. Also when LTT sealed the Bore, that was certainly no time of mourning but rather a time of celebration, because the DO was defeated. Only later did the male channelers go mad. The "mourning" happened much later when LTT killed his family and realized what he had done.

Paaran Disen: 2010-09-23

What if mourning did not refer to mourning at all. What if it was a mistranslation and it had originally read "Twice dawns the day, once for MORNING and once for birth." Those words would be really easy to mess up over vocal translation, as they sound the same, and it might just have been misspelled or misinterpreted. It would make everything simpler and make a lot more sense, as the day dawns once naturally, and then there is another phenomenon, such as an eclipse, which causes the day to dawn again, in birth, such as the possibility of Elyane's twins being born.

AK: 2010-09-25

Several thoughts:
AFAIK we don't have certain knowledge where the "prophesies" come from, but I've always assumed they were built up by poets based on various foretellings. The thing about foretellings is that they are (almost always) technically correct according to their original wording, but whenever somebody paraphrases them they build their own assumptions about the meanings into the result. Given that the OT often uses metaphor and other types of "distant" paraphrasing, and given that the people doing it always had their own ideas what the foretellings meant, what we have in the prophesies could be only distantly related to what actually fulfills them. This, IMO, especially applies to the lines (found only in the Seanchan version) about the dragon kneeling to the crystal throne or "all is lost". The "all" in this case may have originally applied to the empire, not the battle of the Light against the DO.

A similar distortion, IMO, has taken place regarding the "Last Battle". This term originally (IMO) meant "the Last Battle of the War of Power", but in three thousand years of legend telling, has morphed into "the Last Battle of the World". Once the last battle is over and the DO gone (destroyed or resealed into his prison), the War of Power is over but the "world [is still] not done with battle". A similar distortion involved the Forsaken (I don't have time to chase down the ref's): at some point somebody repeats a mantra about the Forsaken "sealed in the Pit of Doom at the moment of Creation,", although everybody knows they were free during the War of Power.

Now to the biggie:

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul. In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

IMO this refers specifically to blood spilled through the wounds in his side, which contain the essence of Shadar Logoth sealed in by Saidin, having been battling the essence of the DO (as transmitted by baalzamon's staff) under the influence of Rand's very strong ta'veren. Ever since the cleansing, I've thought of the essence of Shadar Logoth as something like a bacterial infection, which specifically feeds off the DO's taint, as well as other types of evil. This explains how it can spread through a touch, although perhaps not as virulently as Moiraine's description in tEotW. Thus Saidin was cleansed by running it through a "filter" of Shadar Logoth, with the essence feeding off (and thus removing) the taint.

Now, the version of the essence in Rand's side has been fighting the taint, locked away by a shield made from Saidin, and has had plenty of time to mutate, under the influence of Rand's ta'veren, into something capable of destroying the DO himself. How his blood is shed remains to be seen, but it would be ironic (if somewhat Gollum-like) if the same dagger that made the original wound becomes responsible for shedding the blood that destroys the DO. (And if it kills Rand at the same time, Padin Fain has finally accomplished both his goals.)

I sort of like the idea that Nynaeve drags him back out of Tel'aran'rhiod, which presumably would separate him from being bound to the wheel, although with the DO actually dead/destroyed this might be OK.

TheWheelWeaves: 2010-09-25

LTT was known as both Lord of the Morning and Prince of Dawn, btw.

If you think about it, those are weird titles to have, at least based on what we know of the AOL. Or, rather, based on what we don't know about LTT. We have no mentions of why he is called The Lord of the Morning and Prince of Dawn, yet it is mentioned time and again. Why these things, that both have to do with the start of a new day?

It should be significant...LTT even rants about those being HIS names, not Rand's, when Rand is hailed as such by Weiramon (IIRC, could've been one of any lapdog-nobles).

[tangent: how does Weiramon know to call Rand Lord of the Morning and Prince of Dawn? I believe he might have been the first to call Rand such, and frequently does, being pompous and obsequious all the time. Another hint to his possible Dark affiliations?]

Also note that Rand is called He Who Comes With The Dawn. Pretty interesting stuff, if you ask me.

cindy: 2010-09-25

lord of the morning and son of the dawn are names for lucifer (the name means, literally, light bearer, originally meant the morning star, or venus, came to symbolize the fallen angel concept of satan, like a fallen star).

i think that's why lews was called, basically, lucifer - he's a fallen star/angel/whatever.

pogo: 2010-09-27

Just started my re read in preparation for TOM, interesting how many of the prophecies are in Book One

The other thing that strikes me in book one is Lans final lesson/ advice/ sword fighting move

We have had all the others used throughout the book, rat up a drainpipe, flat out like a lizard drinking, soaring with eagles working with turkeys etc

The last one Lan had to teach or tell Rand was "sheathing the sword"

Will Rand take one for the team?

Grig: 2010-09-27

The last one Lan had to teach or tell Rand was "sheathing the sword"

Oh, you mean the form he used to defeat Ishamael in TGH?

Myth: 2010-09-29

@AK: I like the thought of the tainted blood from Shadar Logoth somehow playing a part. It would be an ironic and interesting twist if this seemingly non-healing wound was crucial to success in the last battle.

I don't think I agree that it gets mutated or used as a filter to clean the taint. Could be but it just seems like extraordinary circumstances.

But if I remember correctly Shadar Logoth was not only the enemy of other nations but of the DO himself. I thought I remembered the reason they became so suspicious and reclusive was from distrusting each other whether they are a DF or not. In that sense I like that maybe it is the side wound that spills blood and finally the taint of Shadar Logoth comes directly into contact and conflict with the DO. Interesting thought.

CreationEdge: 2010-10-29

"Twice dawns the day" -Prophecy

"I have taken the path down to the belly of Shayol Ghul, down the long way with stones like fangs brushing my head, to the shore of a lake of fire and molten rock - " No, not again! " - that holds the Great Lord of the Dark in its endless depths. The heavens above Shayol Ghul are black at noon with his breath." -Fain

Dark One's prison restored (not sealed, probably destroyed completely so a new, whole one can be made). Bore is gone. Sky is no longer "black at noon". Turning of darkness to light is kind of like dawn, IMO. The whole sky in the blight is being warped, and we see in the prologue of TGS that those striped black and silver clouds are spreading.

---

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

Line 3: "the Dragon's blood stains the rock"

The DRAGON is LTT. al'Thor is the Dragon REBORN. Could this prophecy make that distinction? It would support the "Dragon's blood" being the Aiel theory. I don't make a stand either way, I'm just putting that out there.

Homeschool: 2010-10-29

@CREATIONEDGE - Nice point with the sky of Shayol Ghul being black... If they repair the Bore, there could be a second dawn that day, just from that.

brother of Battles: 2010-11-05

IMO the Foretelling Nicola had..

"The Great Battle done, but the world not done with battle"

I think this does refer to the last battle. Just because the DO is resealed doesn't mean that everyone is just going to throw down their weapons and embrace each other has family. Plus their will still be Shadow Spawn all over the place. This foretelling is saying the even after the DO is sealed back up, there will still be work that needs going for the forces of the light.

Lorcin: 2010-11-07

This is a realy interesting theory but I think that the answer to this lies with merging most of the main theories (the nature of the battle, shadowspawn thief etc) as this is a prominant event in the wheel of time series and as a result everything that happens big or small will have and impact on this e.g. if fain steals troops off the shadow how will he use them?? also everyone seems to have fogotten about Moraine. Why did she ask Mat to come rescue her she always seemed to be willing to take one for the team so why risk a Tarvan?? also what will the elfren do to her when they find her in their doman and whoes side are they on and what role will they play.

I personally think that the elfren are outside the pattern and Moriane will discover somthing cruial about the last battle with them.

Also has it occured to anyone that even if Rand seals the dark one couldn't a darkkfriend just open the bore again like in the age of legends?? Couldn't Larfer hve left instuctions in the event of that happening I know I would??

Also will merly sealing the bore be enough. I think that the Ael will sing and some how cleanish the Blight and die in the proses.

its been a while since I read the book so please forgive any spelling errors.