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emirhage's Capture Was Faked
by Ozymandias: 2005-10-15 | 5.69 out of 10 (26 votes)
Recent Categories: Rand, Semirhage, and the Capture
Given that this is a totally new argument, I guess there aren't too many counterpoints to address, but I'll do my best to anticipate.
Point One: Semirhage is one of the Chosen
Obvious, but of extreme importance. "Abruptly, no more than ten paces away, she... flickered. For an instant, she was taller than most men, garbed all in black...." (KoD, 587). This is the moment that Semirhage is revealed for being herself and not Tuon. But it begs the question, how? Semirhage is without question one of the ten most experienced channelers alive (excluding Sammael, Be'lal, and Rahvin, who no longer exist). There is no way she should let something as simple as Illusion dropped, especially not at such a crucial moment. I realize someone will most likely point to Cadsuane's little comment about doing something, but Semirhage would have attacked the moment the weave fell apart, but instead she waited. She had to know the game was up at that first flicker, but she gave everyone the crucial seconds (except Rand, cuz of LTT) to grasp the OP and possibly block her. I can't imagine she was foolish enough to think her plot might work, after that exposure.
Point Two: We Know Semirhage LIKES to be Captured.
Maybe an overstatement, but the point is there nonetheless. We have direct evidence that Semirhage is not only experienced at breaking out of tight situations, but when she is in them she excels at turning people to the Shadow. "She had been a prisoner before, briefly, during the War of the Shadow. She had escaped from high detention by frightening her jailors to the point that they actually smuggled her to freedom" (KoD, 589). So we know that Semirhage has the ability to convince even the most hardened guards to turn on their former masters and assist her. We also know that "her revenge was exacted every time another councilor from the Hall publicly professed adherence to the Shadow after her attentions" (BWB, 66). Now we have proof that she is also skilled in turning high ranking people who are solidly allied to the Light. This combination creates some convincing circumstantial evidence to support my claim. She had to know that she would be placed under guard, most likely by Asha'man (and she probably knows Taim is a DF as well, and therefore his minions are more predisposed towards the Shadow anyways), and from their she could act like a worm, eating away at the inside of Rand's cause.
Point Three: Various Circumstantial Evidence
This isn't anything solid, just a lot of little things that point towards this capture being a set up. For example, there are five male a'dam sitting in plain sight inside that house. How in the world did Semirhage expect to lure Rand and Co. into the house, collar them (even though they can clearly see the a'dam), and shield all of the accompanying Aes Sedai in a period of a few seconds? Just doesn't seem likely. In addition, Semirhage makes almost no preparation. We know she'll have no problem bringing an army or a large number of damane through a gateway, to be hidden in the house, and why wouldn't she when her entire idea is to capture and enslave Rand? It just doesn't seem to make any sense. Thirdly, she seems not only calm, but contemptuous, as if she's already working on intimidating her jailors. "Be silent, Falendre. Her gaze promised pain" (KoD, 592). Semirhage is in no position to be dealing out pain, not as a captive. That is, unless her entire purpose in being a captive is to undermine Rand's cause, and she obviously will feel confident that this is possible. "Semirhage was standing stiffly with her arms at her sides, doubtless wrapped up in flows of air... she must have been shielded, too, but her dark face looked contemptuous" (KoD, 589). A captive, yet contemptuous? Unlikely, unless she is captive by her own design and everything is going according to plan. She doesn't even make a move to escape. "'Why should I deny myself?' Pride dripped from every word. 'I am Semirhage'" (KoD, 593). Calm I can see, but pride!?!?
I can already think of a few objections to this theory. I have mentioned one before, and I'm certain that someone will start talking about how she cried for her damane to shield them. I do not believe this could possibly be an objection. There is no way Semirhage would have come with only three damane, when she had already allowed 6 channelers of Rand's to come. No, I think all of that was an attempt to do two things. One, Semirhage is trying to create a convincing scene, one in which it seems like she actually tried to capture Rand, not the other way around. And secondly, she is trying to "let the lord of chaos rule."
Imagine the confusion it will cause when those sul'dam and damane get back to Ebou Dar and report that not only is Tuon dead, but her imposter was one of the Forsaken? She just killed 90% of the imperial family back in Seandar, and the one true heiress to the throne is now "gone". The Return, the last true unified Seanchan military force, will collapse into warring bands and increase confusion and decrease the possibility of Rand bringing Tarabon, Amadicia, and Altara into his alliance whole. Now he has to deal with the Shaido, warring Seanchan factions, and everyone else who wants him dead.
And also, RJ rarely has anything this openly good happen to Rand. Sometimes events happen that prove fortuitous to Rand, but it has been a really long time before he has gotten something this awesome without any ambiguity (even killing Sammael isn't a certainty yet). Thats not really proof, of course, just an observation.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-15
You make an interesting point, Ozy. Semirhage doesn't have a large amount of fire power with her. In fact, she came with relatively small odds. She hoped to capture Rand, but even that attempt seemed ill timed. She had to have know he would be expecting a trap. After the Forsaken meeting, while she did do damage to Rand, it makes you wonder if she has teamed up with someone, in hopes that they can do more significant damage, since Rand has kept his whereabouts secret. That is what I would push, Ozy. Here goal was to locate Rand. Is it possible she has some form of ter'angreal that acts as a homing device of some type? A Trojan Horse tactic? The more I think about it, while the Forsaken act cavalier, this does appear to be a "fake". If that was a faction, I would join.
WinespringBrother: 2005-10-15
I would believe it more if it were Moghedien or Cyndane as the bait, since they could more easily be forced to risk their own lives in this situation. Semirhage could have as easily been killed as captured in that situation, while Moghedien and Cyndane have been mindtrapped, which probably makes them trackable. Though this may be a side plot outside of Moridin's knowledge, since the Seanchan were Semirhage's domain so to speak.
Having said that, Semirhage does have her alliance with Demandred and Mesaana working for her, and it may indeed be something they are working on, and we know Demandred is a gambler. And it's odd that she didn't use a more powerful weave than a little fireball to try to escape.
Davian93: 2005-10-15
It was definitely part of the plan for Semi to be captured by Rand and Co. Already, just by her madness comments, she has sown a large amount of dissent and doubt among Rand's group. Also, is she was successful in blinding Rand, Rand wont be able to channel effectively anymore. Besides which, the DO can probably track Semi and therefore Rand by her connection to the DO.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-10-15
I'll agree that the circumstances of her capture were decidely odd...very odd !
However it would seem to me extremely silly for Semirhage to get herself 'captured'...she could have been killed, balefired even !
Secondly, any benefit she could gain from being captured, would appear to be absolutely minimal...inducing guards to let you free is hardly a death blow, or even a scratch to your oposition...except that you are free to do what you were doing before you were captured...so why bother getting 'captured' in the first place.
And maybe the DO can track her? So what ? She doesn't have to stay with Rand - that decision is certainly not something within her power to decide -influence maybe, but decide, no. And with the Last Battle imminent, it's highly likely someone would dispense summary justice, so that there is no chance of her escaping, or causing trouble, whether or not the Dragon Reborn objects.
The only reason working risking getting killed in order to get captured, and then running the risk of getting killed shortly after being captured, is for some short term goal with a high return. Maybe there is one, but we obviously can't see that yet.
The only surprise for me is that having Rand say she was Semi, and then admitting it herself, someone didn't simply kill her on the spot.
I don't think they know about transmigration, so after capturing her, it's unlikely they'd balefire her.
Aan-allein: 2005-10-15
[quote]"Abruptly, no more than ten paces away, she... flickered. For an instant, she was taller than most men, garbed all in black...." (KoD, 587). This is the moment that Semirhage is revealed for being herself and not Tuon. But it begs the question, how? Semirhage is without question one of the ten most experienced channelers alive (excluding Sammael, Be'lal, and Rahvin, who no longer exist). There is no way she should let something as simple as Illusion dropped, especially not at such a crucial moment.[quote]
I thought one of Cadsuane's ter'angreal could disrupt illusions...
It wasn't that Semirhage wanted to be captured, she just didn't realize she was dealing with superior forces.
"'Why should I deny myself?' Pride dripped from every word. 'I am Semirhage'" (KoD, 593).
I think this is the reason she was captured. Pride. She was so confident in her abilities, she didn't believe she could be captured.
Also, Semirhage has been in Seanchan for the most part, so most of what she knows of Rand's abilities are hearsay from other forsaken
I'm not saying she's not going to try to do terrible things while in captivity , as you suggest. I totally agree with you there, I just don't feel like she wanted to get captured. Overconfidence in herself and underestimating her opponent led to her capture.
[quote]And also, RJ rarely has anything this openly good happen to Rand.[quote]
Rand got his friggin hand blown off for cryin out loud!!! That doesn't seem like a very fair trade. They aren't going to have time to learn much from her before TG! I think they should force a few cool weaves out of her with an a'dam, then balefire her ass back to the AOL. Then Rand could have his hand back.
Come to think of it, Why didn't he just have somebody balefire her right then??? He could have had his hand right back and one less forsaken to worry about!
UberAshaman: 2005-10-15
Tam said something about a trojan horse. Maybe Demandred or Mesaana put a Finder on Semirhage like the one Elayne put on the thief person in Camelyn. Just an idea, but maybe then Demandred or Mesaana then attack Rand with other Forsaken because we know lots of Trollocs don't really work anymore :)
CyberFade: 2005-10-15
Frustrating that we get next to nothing after the capture and that it's the end of Rand's storyline in KoD (go Lefty Al Thor).
Recall the LoC meeting between Dem, Mes, Sem and Graendal--as Mesaana said it's a huge gamble but it could give them everything. It really depends on how much Graendal is in Moridin's corner--she also thought that there were some things that Ishy/Superfade didn't need to know about. With a good chunk of Rand's forces on Graendal's doorstep I'm wondering about where Dem's plan could be going. So I'd suggest incorporating those three passages from LoC and APoD into this theory.
Present day Aes Sedai have tracking weaves (Elayne uses one) as well as different bonds (Aiel, Warder...), so I don't think keeping track of where Semirhage is held is a problem.
Also Taim refers to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" as an old saying at the end. I'm not clear on if it's gloating (we can say anything in front of these so-called Aes Sedai) or it's just a clue along with Taim's color scheme for either his identity (Taimidin, yuck!) or his Forsaken sponsor.
silverwolf: 2005-10-16
I thought about this possibility, but I don't consider it highly likely--no better than 50/50, at best. I think she had expected the ruse to work--note the anger on her face when the illusion drops--and had hoped to lure Rand into the house, where the sul'dam (or someone else) would snap on the collars--this would be easier to do in close quarters than out in the open. Most of all, I don't see enough of a benefit for her by allowing her capture--she can cast doubt on Rand's sanity, but no one has any choice (they know the prophecies, so they just have to hope he can hold on). Also, the fireball she threw at Rand looked like it was trying to kill him--not helpful toward being captured. Keep in mind--her apparent plan to capture Rand came damn near to working, and probably would have worked if Cadsuane and Nynaeve weren't already embracing the source or if they didn't have their ter'angreal (yes, Cadsune used a ter'angreal to disrupt the weave; at least, that's what the book seems to indicate, and I think I remember reading about a ter'angreal that does that).
a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-16
From everything I've seen and from everything I knew about Semirhague character, she acted exactly as I would expect her to act if she was surprised offguard. Her most successfull and well-known trait is her way to overcome her psychical struggle agains any of her opponent. This definitely includes the necessary use of appearance as if she has full control over the events and making everybody else believe she is in charge. It's pivotal part of her style. Why would she change her style only because being surprised offguard?
Why would she express pride? Because she is really full of pride, she is a quintessence of the defiant pride ("These councellors full of envy rejected my pleasure, but I showed them their place, because nobody is match of me" sort of pride). She is a kind of person who in the face of worst danger will play the defiance and will be very proud knowing what a splendid defiance is she playing. It's usual for sadists to extremely enjoy their appearance of acting as strong persons in any situation. Especially in a situation nobody else would act in "strong" style. Her pride about the incident when she was captured and bullied her warders to release her only strenghtens the probability for her to act so. She is proud to know she knows how to react when captured, right?
She hardly would expect that any primitive 3Ager will bring a weave-unravelling ter'angreal (Lanfear was also surprised during her fught against Alivia). After that Lanfear easily returned her contemptuous attitude despite of being actually in not so good position.
Semirhague could make so weak preparations of defense lines because she would definitely overestimate the effectiveness of here mere presence and of here strength of will. I think Semirhague is the kind of person who would despise the help of others and who wouldn't like knowing owing her achievements to other person's assistence.
Gareth: 2005-10-16
This theory is certainly interesting.
Point One
Your point One is the most convincing. Either Semirhage let her Illusion flicker on purpose, or something happened that altered her weave. What could have cause such an alteration? I think of two things:
First, we know that Saidin and Saidar have been odd for some time. Wards are failing; sometime, the channeler find it hard to make a weave work properly... Maybe that's what happened to Semirhage. Her weave may have become uncontrollable during a moment, or the weave was tied off, the Illusion dropped and she put it back very quickly in the hope that nobody had seen it. She is very adept with the One Power after all.
Second, we know that Cadsuane carries some ter'angreal on her person; ter'angreal we know almost nothing about. Perhaps one of them can dispell any Illusion.
Point Two
Your point Two is more debatable IMO. Semirhage has been a prisonner ONCE during the whole war of shadow. That doesn't seem like a favourite tactic. Besides, every Concilor she managed to turn to the Shadow in the AoL have been turned through torture, which she obviously cannot exert in her present situation.
Point Three
Yes, the trap seems ill prepared, which indeed may indicate that it is a decoy for Semirhage real purpose
"Be silent, Falendre. Her gaze promised pain"
Falendre and anyone beside her are in front of Semirhage, one of the Forsaken, a cold-blooded murderer who takes pleasure in inflcting pain. No wonder they see a threat in Semirhage's eyes when she gives an order. But that's not a PoV from Semirhage. Therefore, we have no clue she intended to do anything but trying to cow Falendre.
I agree that what Semirhage said and the revelation of her position among the Seanchan may increas the chaos. Still I think she could have achieved that without letting herself be caught. The risk seems really too big.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-16
A lot of good arguments which I have no solid evidence to refute, but as in the original theory, some circumstantial stuff. First off, Semi comes in horribly unprepared. Even her pride wouldn't extend to bringing through every available damane in Ebou Dar. Which she could have and should have done. There was no way six women (which really only counts as three, given that theyre chained to each other) were going to collar all 4 Asha'man and Rand, as well as shield Nyn and Cadsuane, without help. I think playing every "mistake" the Forsaken make off as pride is underestimating their intelligence. Yes, theyre proud and arrogant, but they have seen the most powerful of their number get dropped by Rand and Co. over the course of about 8000 pages.
Also, consider the language Jordan uses. "She flicked her hand a small ball of fire streaked towards him" (KoD, 588). A SMALL ball of fire? Semi isn't retarded. She could just as easily exploded the ground beneath their feet and tried to kill them all at once instead of just Rand. Yes, I think that the "attack" was another step in trying to convince Rand that the attack was real.
Plus, we know that the Forsaken are aware that Rand does not like to kill women, even the Forsaken (see the scene on the docks with Lanfear, and how Rand whines that he couldn't kill her, im too lazy to quote right now). Which lessens Semirhage's risk considerably.
To be fair, let me point out one argument against my theory. The Chosen already know where Rand is (was, at least). I doubt that a comparatively huge army of Trollocs just randomly came out in Tear, in the one place where Rand is staying. The only Chosen who would hold back this information from everyone else is Moridin (given his ideas about Rand being at the last battle and turning him and chaos and whatnot), and he is also that last person who would order and attack on Rand. So I think it's safe to say that its known that Rand was in Tear.
Davian93: 2005-10-16
****However it would seem to me extremely silly for Semirhage to get herself 'captured'...she could have been killed, balefired even ! ****
It is probably part of a larger plan. Perhaps she knew she would survive the encounter because of a Foretelling/Dream or Dark prophecy of some sort. Or perhaps Moridin ordered her directly to do it. Either of those possibilities would make her do it. Or it could be part of a complex plot by Semi, Demandred and Mesaana to capture and use Rand. But it remains...even if Caddy and Nynaeve not been holding the OP it would have been a close thing with a decent chance of Semi being captured or killed. So I would say she expected to be captured.
Jalwin Moerad: 2005-10-16
Why would Semirhage want to be captured? There isn't much time before TG for her to work on his followers or to act as a finder. And besides, there are a lot more peons to have captured than one of the important Forsaken/Chosen.
As to why she was captured, it seems to me that it was a combination of ter'angreal, the fact that Nyneave and Cadsuane were already channeling, and the fact that Rand only had 5 channelers with him. Min managed to stick Semirhage with her knife; it seems to me that might have been what through Semirhage off. She would have expected channelers, and prepared for them, but perhaps she was oblivious to physical danger, thinking that Rand would only take channelers.
But why was she there in the first place? She tried to kill Rand, and we know from the earlier Forsaken meeting that Moridin only wanted Rand dead at a time and place of his choosing. Does the border of Illian at this time seem like a place of his choosing? I don't think so, so I think that Semirhage was acting on her own (possible) but more likely duped, i.e., that Demandred promised a surefire way to capture him but then failed to deliver on that promise. That seems most likely to me, that Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesanna planned to take Rand out and then Demandred and Mesanna failed to show up and let Semirhage take the fall.
Heron: 2005-10-16
I think that the plan could have have worked except for the illusion failing, that was her big downfall.
I failed I think because of one of the weave breaking ter'angreal was close enough to work. The one we know about the most is Mat's medallion , but there is another one that Nynaeve owns she took it from the collection the kin held when she left with rand in WH. We know it's there because when Nynaeve is using the choeden kal to help rand get rid of the taint she handed over her angreal to alivia. Later when Cyndane throws a fireball at Alivia it just comes apart with Alivia doing nothing which proves that one of the angreal Nynaeve wears does break up weaves.
And since in WH Cyndane did not recgonize it neither could Semi so she would't expect that.
Aelfinn: 2005-10-16
I haven't read the book yet (if I'm lucky I'll get to go to a bookstore on Wednesday and get it), but based off what everyone's said here, arrogance seems the most likely explanation for Semi's behaviour.
Heck, me, whenever I'm in REALLY deep trouble (and I'm talking getting suspended), I always try to behave like I'm really in control of the situation. I only have my teachers and parents to deal with in a situation like that, and I'm not a very good actor anyways. Semi's probably a WAY better actor than me.
And for her underestimating everyone else: That's one of the biggest things the Forsaken are known for, and besides, how brilliant are you if you swear your soul to an evil entity who plans to destroy the whole universe?
Callandor: 2005-10-16
This was my first reaction to reading the scene, mainly because I got it and had been knowing it was coming eventually. Then read it and just thought "That's it?! That can't be it..."
**Secondly, any benefit she could gain from being captured, would appear to be absolutely minimal...inducing guards to let you free is hardly a death blow, or even a scratch to your oposition...except that you are free to do what you were doing before you were captured...so why bother getting 'captured' in the first place.**
Have to rememeber the Light is on the ropes so to speak, so if a few of the key sparks gets snuffed, they will lose. If Semirhage can take out one, it's a big victory to the Shadow.
**The only surprise for me is that having Rand say she was Semi, and then admitting it herself, someone didn't simply kill her on the spot.**
Same reason they didn't kill Moghedien and Asmodean -- information.
**Also, Semirhage has been in Seanchan for the most part, so most of what she knows of Rand's abilities are hearsay from other forsaken**
She was at the Cleansing (even if we didn't see her) so she knows his assets somewhat at first hand.
**Tam said something about a trojan horse. Maybe Demandred or Mesaana put a Finder on Semirhage like the one Elayne put on the thief person in Camelyn.**
Never know -- that might be a trick the Third Agers made. But I do like the irony of the situation :)
**Also Taim refers to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" as an old saying at the end. I'm not clear on if it's gloating (we can say anything in front of these so-called Aes Sedai) or it's just a clue along with Taim's color scheme for either his identity (Taimidin, yuck!) or his Forsaken sponsor.**
It's almost certainly not an old saying for three reasons:
1. Taim is mocking the Aes Sedai -- first and foremost ;)
2. Pevara has never heard of it -- not concrete, but adds to its doubt.
3. Taim is one arrogant bastard, and if he felt like gloating information so blatantly in Aes Sedai faces about a plot, I would say he would do it. It's not important information really -- just in our context -- but it's small enough to do it.
The color of the palace tiles and walls more indicate Taim sponsoring Ishamael/Moridin. And the doors for the Forsaken symbols.
**Also, the fireball she threw at Rand looked like it was trying to kill him--not helpful toward being captured.**
If she wanted to kill him, why didn't she use balefire?
**First, we know that Saidin and Saidar have been odd for some time. Wards are failing; sometime, the channeler find it hard to make a weave work properly... Maybe that's what happened to Semirhage. Her weave may have become uncontrollable during a moment, or the weave was tied off, the Illusion dropped and she put it back very quickly in the hope that nobody had seen it. She is very adept with the One Power after all.**
But that didn't happen with anyone else in the book. Illusion is different from wards.
**Plus, we know that the Forsaken are aware that Rand does not like to kill women, even the Forsaken (see the scene on the docks with Lanfear, and how Rand whines that he couldn't kill her, im too lazy to quote right now). Which lessens Semirhage's risk considerably.**
It is true that Rand hates to kill women, but it's questionable whether the Shadow knows that. They might through Darkfriends (since even nobles in The Path of Daggers know that), but Rand is thinking that he couldn't kill Lanfear -- not saying it.
But I would count it in favor of Semirhage.
**The Chosen already know where Rand is (was, at least).**
At least one did....
**The only Chosen who would hold back this information from everyone else is Moridin (given his ideas about Rand being at the last battle and turning him and chaos and whatnot), and he is also that last person who would order and attack on Rand. So I think it's safe to say that its known that Rand was in Tear.**
The Trollocs that attacked were the same ones that Moridin talked about being ordered by Sammael or someone pretending to be Sammael (we know Sammael isn't returning, so it was a pretender). So, at least one Forsaken knew where he was -- but unlikely all did.
**Does the border of Illian at this time seem like a place of his choosing?**
It was the border of Andor and Altara. Or near it.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-16
The issue isn't whether the plan could have worked... I'm sure that if they could have, they would have much preferred to capture Rand. But Semi put on such an unconvincing show. I mean, where are the Deathwatch Guards? Where are the armies or damane that a risky meeting between the heir to the throne and the most powerful man in the current day and age requires? A strategist, even as poor a one as Semirhage, would never forget the trappings a show that go along with any deception. And you can bet the farm that Demandred, a probable coconspirator, wouldn't have forgotten either. As I said, there is nothing that says outright that Semi meant to be captured, but you have to read between the lines. She made a bunch of obvious and avoidable mistakes, and even after she made the mistakes, didn't react in a logical manner if her purpose was to kill/capture Rand. And we know she thinks well under pressure, so shock doesn't really explain it. I can tell that some people just won't be convinced, and there is a great deal of evidence for the other side too. But given the way Jordan twists his plots, and the way the actual meeting went off, I think that the whole thing was a set up.
freya23: 2005-10-16
2 points:
(1) Illusions work best when they are similar to the person's real appearance. When there is a large difference, the weave flickers (recall Elayne's drunken illusion-weaving at the Tarasin palace). Therefore, the question is not why she let the weave flicker (since there's no reason to think that she dropped it), but why did she move knowing that it would flicker? You'd think she'd be well aware of the effect of moving around when you are at least six inches taller than your illusion.
(2) If Semi was planning to be captured, why on earth would she bring the male a'dam? There's no good reason I can think of to let Rand know of their existence.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-16
It wasn't a one dimensional plan. If Rand were stupid enough to come on his own without help, then Semirhage would have been happy to take Rand. If she was out to kill him, why wouldn't she have used Balefire? Instead, she knows Rand has Asha'man, she knows Rand has Aes Sedai, and she comes with a very small contingent and no real backup? As I mentioned, Forsaken can be proud and stupid. However, this female Forsaken made a direct attack on Rand without help. It's as though she didn't care if she was caught. By the way, the only thing she really has to fear is balefire. Otherwise, if she died, she would be transmigrated, if she lived and was captured, she would be rescued as planned, and if she happen to capture Rand, she wins. But it sounds odd to accept Semirhage just being an idiot.
Davian93: 2005-10-16
****But it sounds odd to accept Semirhage just being an idiot. ****
Exactly Tam. She hasn't lasted this long because she's stupid. Semi is not an idiot and this whole thing stinks of being too easy. Rand and Co got away from the Death Star far too easily. They must be tracking them. Having Semi messing with the people in Rand's party will do alot of damage and help out the Shadow immensely.
blytzd: 2005-10-16
Semirhage can't be idiot, she is among the most successful of the Forsaken. She brought the Seanchan continent into chaos which is more than what any one other Forsaken has done.
This has to be a setup or the "dumb evil" theory wins the day.
By the way I think all of the Forsaken who have not been transmigrated would still prefer to keep their bodies. I dont think Lanfear cared for hers nor anyone else but Halima... but he/she is just a perv anyways. Would u want to loose your body after having it for 3000 years, I wouldn't. Besides I would assume dying would put you in the lesser graces of the Great Lord since death meant failure.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-17
You have right, Ozymandias, that we shouldn't just say that Forsaken did something unexplainable because of simply being stupidly proud. It would be too poor approach of course. But I don't think that having not enough fire power prepared should mean an ill-prepared trap. In the contrary, I think that a trap with two much sul'dam around will be a poor trap. Because too much sul'dam around will be making the meeting too suspicious for the first time Rand's entourage comes. Semirhague knows that Rand survived many attentates and similar and he couldn't be lured to come unprepared. Semirhague also knows that Rand has channelers who help him and who most likely would come with him, Aes Sedai aqmong them. If I would plan a trap under such conditions I would anticipate that Rand's men and women will make a little reconnaissance first, or at least that it is quite likely that a pair of Aes Sedai and asha'man would appear on the place of meeting before Rand himself in person.
You know, on meeting entourage people and security people appear usually some steps before the big boss. I would anticipate further that if these Aes Sedai find a great number of sul'dam around (and being female channelers these Aes Sedai will sense the damane if the damane are in vicinity usable to be reinforcements) Rand's party will become most likely hightly suspicious, i.e. prepared to resistance. Rand's party could even decide to cancel the meeting before the coming of Rand himself.
Setting a trap Semirhague has first to manage that Rand would feel safe on the meeting. Something not easy to do about Rand. Something definitely impossible if she has too much striking power around. Something she knows that Rand doesn't like as in the case when he left Caemlyn because of the 13 Aes Sedai gathered there.
Semirhague definitely hasn't planned to capture Rand by rued power. She just has not good possibilities to lure Rand in a place with so overhelming odds against Rand that he would helpless. The whole stuff with posing as the DotNM means that she intended to act stealthy. She rather wanted to begin patiently step around Rand's attention, to make her presence accustomed for him. As a Seanchan royalty she has the chance, because she is key person to do something important for him and she can believably demand more time of negotiations and eventually some face-to-face session when Rand woulf believe that the little Seanchan heir is not dangerous. Semirhague must look out not dangerous for this purpose,a nd the best way to acheve this was to not take obvious strangth with her.
However Semirhague rather believed that her Illusion will be not broken and that she could continue with her stealth game.
The SMALL fireball. Of course it will be small fireball, because Semirhague doesn't intend to kill Rand but to capture him. A good way to eliminate a opponent and capture him would be injuring him so that he would be knowcked out for the moment, then when putting the situation under her control to Heal Rand and treat him as she decides to be properly. She could even have in mind that even Rand's helpers would overcome her, they will still need her as Rand's Healer, so she would have very good initial base to negotiate.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17
Wow, what a surprise. You and I disagree, aDBF. How can you say Semirhage really believed that Rand/LTT wouldn'y believe that this wasn't a trap? And the excuse as to why she didn't use balefire is ridiculous. Why throw a fireball that could kill, when you could throw balefire that could kill? I think she was surprised she hit him with the fireball; if you recall, Rand had a hard time grasping Saidin and couldn't defend himself, something she wouldn't have expected. Like I said, her plan was not one dimensional which is how you are making it sound. Would she have loved to capture or kill Rand? Yes. Is she dumb enough to make that the extent of her plan? No.
near3decades: 2005-10-17
Hey everyone, I'm new here, but I'll take a poke at this one.
I think most of you are missing a key angle to Semirhage's plan.
Obviously, having too much strength with her would make him suspicious, so I'm certain that she brought only a few of the stronger damane that she had at hand, but they are really only the backup. I think she planned on being able to collar him herself, then use his power + her knowledge to destroy anyone that he brought with him...and I have very little doubt she could have been successful. Remember, all of the Forsaken consider these so-called Aes Sedai to be bungling idiots (which they are, for the most part, and Forsaken knowledge of the abilities of the Asha'man is quite limited in comparison), and that they would be no match for her in that situation, not to mention her damane backup. A bold plan, if true, and with very high gains if successful. The question is, with Rand's own problems with successfully taking hold of saidin (not talking about the sickness, but more the battle with Lews Therin), it begs the question of whether or not anyone could use his power at all if they did collar him?
Why didn't she use balefire? In most cases, the folks that have used it in this story have just *done* it, but we have one solitary instance where this is not the case: when Moghedien attempts to kill Nynaeve from the rooftop (don't remember which book, sorry...PoD, I think). It describes how she had to gather the Power, and it sounded to me like balefire is a rather complex weave. Meaning, Semirhage would have had to gather a lot of the Power, thus alerting all females in the area...and quite frankly, I think that most channelers know that only one weave requires that kind of draw, so I don't think she would have gotten it off in any case.
So...her Illusion flickered, and she knew the game was up. Her reaction was instant, knowing that she would be shielded very quickly. I do think she tried to kill him, in that moment. The *small fireball* that she threw reminds me strongly of the *nasty surprise* Cyndane tossed during the Cleansing. I don't take it to be a simple fireball, so to speak, but something deadly on impact...and something that could be snapped off in an instant, as opposed to something that would take longer to weave (balefire), that probably would not have been completed before she was shielded.
Semirhage always struck me as someone who is able to take advantage of any situation she is presented with. Her persona is quite powerful (her gaze promised pain), and it's really hard to ignore someone who is that sure of themself. So, Plan A is in the crapper, now it's time for Plan B...which, as others have mentioned, would be to eat away at Rand's support from the inside. I believe that she has miscalcuated here, however...I have yet to meet an Asha'man who is afraid of a female channeler (rather, almost wanting to test their strength/skill), and I really don't see her turning any of the females that are with Rand...unless one of them is a darkfriend.
I can't wait to see Semirhage vs. Cadsuane in conversation.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-17
just a comment for blytzd. Death hardly means failure for the Chosen. I read some nifty thing about Ishy and his death. I mean, he dies, and immediately upon his return is given the highest honor; that of Nae'blis. So death is far from a punishment or failure if your death served a purpose or if you served well in life. not really relevant, but true nonetheless.
I think that the part about letting chaos rule is incredibly important in and of itself. The Forsaken are taking major risks to create chaos. Setting up Taim (unless he is Chosen himself) with such incredible power is undeniably risky. Anyone willing to turn to the Shadow would be willing to turn on his fellow Chosen for more power. Graendal says Sammael is risking a great deal in mocking the Shaido with the "nar'baha" and spreading them out over the world. We also know from the BWB that Demandred is a gambler, "willing to play the odds" (I'm in school, so I apologize for the lack of quotes). This plan is a well calculated risk, with the possible outcomes determined. They know the odds Semi is killed are bad. They know her odds of being captured are overwhelmingly good. And if those two fail and she actually captures him, well, even better!
therobotbadger: 2005-10-17
**By the way, the only thing she really has to fear is balefire. Otherwise, if she died, she would be transmigrated,**
I just have a small objection to this point. How long was the span between tEotW and LoC when Aginor and Balthamel were actually dead? Compare that to how much time we likely have left before TG. (I don't use Cyndane as an example because of the mystery surrounding her situation.) I think everyone knows the Last Battle is coming soon, or at least all the key players, so Sem could have an idea of how long it would take to transmigrate her compared to the time to TG.
I think that based on information she has at hand, Sem would have to conclude that she wouldn't be transmigrated before TG. If it were possible to be transmigrated after TG, that means the DO has already won, and either A. she can't play a part, or B. there would be no reason for the DO to transmigrate her, having no use for her. If Sem did execute her plan with capture as an acceptable outcome, she did it balls to the wall, knowing that if she died (in a conventional or a balefire sense) she wouldn't be coming back.
Other than that point, I find the argument convincing. I don't think that arrogance would blind Sem to the point where she wouldn't realize that she didn't have sufficient backup to face Rand. I mean, Sammael was known as a brilliant defender, and Rand went to his turf on his terms and still beat him. Sem has to realize what she's dealing with, and she didn't put forth sufficient strength to kill or capture him.
As to why the sad bracelets were there, I think they were intendend as BOTH a means to capture Rand if he's stupid enough to walk into the trap, and also as a means to convince Rand, after Sem's eventual capture, that she meant business. I think the sad bracelets were primarily a ruse, just like Sem's weak fireball and too few sul'dam/damane.
Callandor: 2005-10-17
**(1) Illusions work best when they are similar to the person's real appearance. When there is a large difference, the weave flickers (recall Elayne's drunken illusion-weaving at the Tarasin palace). Therefore, the question is not why she let the weave flicker (since there's no reason to think that she dropped it), but why did she move knowing that it would flicker? You'd think she'd be well aware of the effect of moving around when you are at least six inches taller than your illusion.**
We've seen Illusions that haven't been very close. Lanfear in the Waste is the best example, because as Keille she looks like what most people would consider 150 lbs heavier than her true form. Big difference. Yet she's walking about, touching and pinching people. No noticable flickers.
**(2) If Semi was planning to be captured, why on earth would she bring the male a'dam? There's no good reason I can think of to let Rand know of their existence.**
It could be that she still plans on using them, and needed them to be taken along with her to possibly get later access to.
**By the way I think all of the Forsaken who have not been transmigrated would still prefer to keep their bodies.**
Of course they would. But it would be rationalization for the risk. Think if the Dark One told Semirhage to do this plan. Go get captured by Rand. Well, what if I'm kiled?! I'll bring you back.
As Tam said, the only real fear would be balefire, which is probably justified in Semirhage not making a large attack.
**Besides I would assume dying would put you in the lesser graces of the Great Lord since death meant failure.**
Well, if it was ordered by the Dark One, and you didn't do it -- you're going to die anyway ;)
**The SMALL fireball. Of course it will be small fireball, because Semirhague doesn't intend to kill Rand but to capture him.**
But you just said she wanted to play it stealthy. If she did, why didn't she plan for a failure of even a small magnitude? If she knows Rand is going to be followed by Aes Sedai and Asha'man, she would know that in light of a failure she would be standing against very strong odds. Why didn't she take it into account?
**Why throw a fireball that could kill, when you could throw balefire that could kill?**
I'd phrase that differently:
Why throw a fireball that could kill, than make balefire that will kill?
**The question is, with Rand's own problems with successfully taking hold of saidin (not talking about the sickness, but more the battle with Lews Therin), it begs the question of whether or not anyone could use his power at all if they did collar him?**
In either case, they would have control if Lews Therin took the Power or if Rand did. They would be controlling to the extent what he did.
** It describes how she had to gather the Power, and it sounded to me like balefire is a rather complex weave. Meaning, Semirhage would have had to gather a lot of the Power, thus alerting all females in the area...and quite frankly, I think that most channelers know that only one weave requires that kind of draw, so I don't think she would have gotten it off in any case.**
If she's holding the Power, it's harder for her to be shielded. In any case, she could've had a tied off and inverted weave that hid her ability to channel (after all I doubt the sul'dam knew she could channel -- just that she used a gateway and they were mystified about that too). As well, she could've even used a reversed weave of balefire (possibly).
Plus, balefire is a complex weave, yes, but it doesn't take long to make. Rand exchanges balefire many times with Rahvin and it's not a difficult thing to toss around moreso than another weave.
Added to this, if you get balefire off it's damn near impossible to stop (technically it is until it hits someone). If it was her intention she stood the best chance with it.
**I think everyone knows the Last Battle is coming soon, or at least all the key players, so Sem could have an idea of how long it would take to transmigrate her compared to the time to TG.**
Whats the risk of timing, compared to the payoff of having Rand under control or inside and among his group?
haertchen: 2005-10-18
I've just reread the section that covers this today, and there's a few points that need to be brought up that point against this theory. Alas, I don't have the book with me, but I paid special attention to details so I can list what I think is important.
Points:
(1) Cadsuane and Nynaeve knew someone was holding the power only by virtue of their ter'angreal. It is hard to know if Semirhage knew about such ter'angreal or remotely expected Rand's retinue to have them. It is not beyond probability, however, that this critical advantage was completely unanticipated. The Forsaken at the cleansing were certainly taken to the cleaners by virtue of these same ter'angreal, and we know they were trying then. (It is also doubtful they learned all of their capabilities at the cleansing. Sammael guesses at the existence of a terangreal that senses male channeling, but I don't think we hear any more about it.)
(2) Cadsuane implied very strongly that she was going to stop the channeling before Rand approached, presumably using one of her ter'angreal. This explains why the illusion was dropped. This advantage also seems unlikely to have been anticipated, and again is fantastically critical.
(3) Nynavae judges that the fight was very close indeed. Rand won only because the ter'angreal warned Nyn and Cad about the channeling and thus they were already holding the source when the damane struck. While Semirhage walked a fine line indeed, if she did not know about the ter'angreal, it probably did not seem so fine at the time.
(4) Semirhage is not completely autonomous within the Seanchen. If someone in power had noticed that she was gone and had taken an army with her, I believe the results would have been quite---interesting. She can't compel every person in the Return. The simplest way to deal with that, with no problems, would be to bring only as many sul'dam and damane as she thought she needed, and no more. More increased the chance of Rand or someone else being suspicious. If it wasn't for the ter'angreal, the damane she had, coupled with the element of surprise, would probably have been enough.
*******************
Imagine the confusion it will cause when those sul'dam and damane get back to Ebou Dar and report that not only is Tuon dead, but her imposter was one of the Forsaken? She just killed 90% of the imperial family back in Seandar, and the one true heiress to the throne is now "gone". The Return, the last true unified Seanchan military force, will collapse into warring bands and increase confusion and decrease the possibility of Rand bringing Tarabon, Amadicia, and Altara into his alliance whole. Now he has to deal with the Shaido, warring Seanchan factions, and everyone else who wants him dead.
*******************
Based on the epilogue, I can imagine very little chaos will actually result. The head Seanchen know very well that Tuon is alive, seeing how she is right there in front of them. I suspect that Tuon's "job," from the pattern's point of view, will be to ally herself with Rand and actually decrease the amount of chaos. The fact that her truth-speaker was a forsaken will probably make Tuon sick, but it will be unlikely to destroy the Seanchen. Had Semirhage's instructions to Suroth been completed, on the other hand, you undoubtedly would have been correct.
********************
And also, RJ rarely has anything this openly good happen to Rand. Sometimes events happen that prove fortuitous to Rand, but it has been a really long time before he has gotten something this awesome without any ambiguity (even killing Sammael isn't a certainty yet). Thats not really proof, of course, just an observation.
*********************
I doubt it will be an unmixed blessing, but you've been jaded by the last few books. Rand succesfully captured and then learned quite a bit from Asmodean, and that has been critical to his survival. We know from Asmodean's point of view that he meant what he said; we know he was truly captured. Things like this do happen to Rand, and if the series is going to turn out remotely well, quite of few of them had better really happen. As for Semirhage boring from the inside---yeah, she's gonna try it. She's no Moggy, that's for sure.
Davian93: 2005-10-18
****And also, RJ rarely has anything this openly good happen to Rand. Sometimes events happen that prove fortuitous to Rand, but it has been a really long time before he has gotten something this awesome without any ambiguity (even killing Sammael isn't a certainty yet). Thats not really proof, of course, just an observation. ****
Personally, I wouldn't consider losing a hand and going half-blind a good thing even if it results in capturing Semi. You're ignoring the massive damage that Semi did to Rand in stating that this was a great victory for him. Personally I'd give Rand a draw at best. Now, he's really going to have trouble channeling if he'll be able to at all. It's a 50/50 shot of Rand being completely blind because of the damage to his eyes/Nynaeve attempting and possibly failing to heal him successfully. I think Semi is exactly where she wants to be. Remember a good general makes contingency plans and then contingency plans for their contingency plans. While it might not have gone exactly according to plan, I dont think she exactly failed.
haertchen: 2005-10-18
Davian93:
Yes, you're right; I forgot that (somehow). Rand has definitely paid to capture Semirhage. I certainly hope for his sake that this *is* a major coup on his part, because the cost is so high. As my post above tries to argue, there are reasons to think Semirhage didn't expect what happened.
Davian93: 2005-10-19
****As my post above tries to argue, there are reasons to think Semirhage didn't expect what happened. ****
I agree that she probably didnt expect exactly what happened but I am sure that she was prepared for the eventuality that Rand would capture her. She's too good a planner and too smart to not plan for contingencies.
haertchen: 2005-10-19
"I agree that she probably didnt expect exactly what happened but I am sure that she was prepared for the eventuality that Rand would capture her. She's too good a planner and too smart to not plan for contingencies."
Yes, but did she plan for Cadsuane? (I'm only half joking on this one.)
Anubis: 2005-10-19
Nah it wasnt faked.
Its simple. Semerhage has been working with the DO hand in hand for a while. She knows that he is winning. She knows that the light is essentilly up shit creek with out a paddle. So she tries to capture Rand. Something FULLY in keeping with what the Dark One would desire. She gets captured. Who cares? They can heal stilling, the Dark One can bring the Chosen back from the dead, and why wouldnt he bring Semerage back? She served better then the toxic twins and they got brought back...
if they kill her she gets freed and a new body. if they still her she gets rescued and healed. if they hold her prisoner the dark one breaks free and rewards her. its win/win/win
Elder Haman: 2005-10-19
I too was... confused by the apparent ease of Semirhage. It was like there this great build up, and then- an anti-climactic end to that plot. I mean, exciting things happen, but it's all just thrown out in a pile. It seemed so... deux macheina.
I have another possibility to propose. Perhaps Semirhage did have back-up from the other Forsaken, and then they left her out to dry. Don't know if it's true, but it's a possibility.
Davian93: 2005-10-20
****I have another possibility to propose. Perhaps Semirhage did have back-up from the other Forsaken, and then they left her out to dry. Don't know if it's true, but it's a possibility.****
Yes, perhaps Demandred and Mesaana were supposed to Gate in and support her and decided that descretion is the better part of valor and simply retreated.
haertchen: 2005-10-20
****Yes, perhaps Demandred and Mesaana were supposed to Gate in and support her and decided that descretion is the better part of valor and simply retreated.****
Or maybe they didn't have time and now are going to stage a rescue. Who knows? I'd be risky, though. Anyone could die if it comes to fighting. I seriously doubt there is time to get resurrected before Tarmon Gaidon, so that might not be the best way out.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-20
*****Based on the epilogue, I can imagine very little chaos will actually result. The head Seanchen know very well that Tuon is alive, seeing how she is right there in front of them. I suspect that Tuon's "job," from the pattern's point of view, will be to ally herself with Rand and actually decrease the amount of chaos. The fact that her truth-speaker was a forsaken will probably make Tuon sick, but it will be unlikely to destroy the Seanchen. Had Semirhage's instructions to Suroth been completed, on the other hand, you undoubtedly would have been correct.*****
Only one person with any power knows Tuon is alive: Suroth. And since she is about to become Empress anyways, she can have Tuon killed and no one question it. And Anath wasn't always a Forsaken... she was killed and replaced by Semirhage.
These is just no way around that fact that it was far too easy for Rand & Co to take down Semi. And yes, she could have used Compulsion on one high ranking general, and given the highly stratified and obedient nature of the Seanchan military (everything about Seanchan society, in fact), it would not have been questioned. Look at the scene where Perrin gets all those raken. All he does is flash a letter and its his.
Davian93: 2005-10-20
****Only one person with any power knows Tuon is alive: Suroth. And since she is about to become Empress anyways, she can have Tuon killed and no one question it. And Anath wasn't always a Forsaken... she was killed and replaced by Semirhage.****
Well, after the epilogue of KoD, all the Seanchan in Ebou Dar know that Tuon is alive and well and in charge of things. Remember...MAJOR SPOILER
Suroth is now property belonging to the Deathwatch Guards.
Dirhavel: 2005-10-20
Sorry if this seems a little thrown together it's one of my first replies and i wanted to get all of it down.
so far I am convinced that her capture was not of her planning but maybe another forsakens. I believe this for a few reasons.
In Chapter 3 there is a meeting of the chosen through Aran'gar's eyes. We know not all of the chosen are happy about Dam's, semi's and messana's little aliance if it can be called that and have been waiting for a chance to break it apart. From Aran'gar's POV "how wonderful it would be if she could find a way to split that threesome apart"
Seems like a great way to start doesn't it?? Taking out one of the Three without them even realizing what has just happend. We also know that any forsaken who is taken by Rand or others is either Killed or Mind trapped. Great way to get rid of opposition.
Semi has been away from most of randland for some time dealing with the seanchan. She could be in the dark concerning the people rand has around him or who he would most likely bring to the meeting. This ebing said she would be more easily convinced to try and go out on her own to capture rand and therefore gaining favor with the DO and possibly replacing Moridin since we know not all of the forsaken are not cooperating.
Almost all the forsaken know that Rand is to powerful to taken on one on one as of right now from past experiences. But yet again Semirhage is behind in this area since she hasn't really come face to face with LTT/RA yet. Leaving her with a disadvantage and possiblility of being set up more easily then the other chosen.
When semirhage does not succeed in leashing rand but instead kills him with say balefire or anything really that knocks off one forsaken right off the bat since Semirhage will be killed outright for disobeying Moridin and even Moridin might be held accountable for not keeping his subordinates inline. That leaves a huge power gap to be filled by?? maybe Aran'gar or one of the other chosen still left standing.
Last but not least. Her fireball at Rand makes me think of the last ditch effort to escape. She was told not to kill him yet she throws a fireball which appears weak but is still strong enough to kill him if it hits Rand correctly. Why was it weak well it's always possible that she was trying to fight off so many shields at that moment that she could not spare any more of her effort.
FijiFury: 2005-10-20
No, it wasn't a fake. Many, many respondents have indicated good reasons why. I have two more cents to add:
1) Look at the a** kicking Moghedien got for being captured. Semirhage wouldn't risk that.
2) Capturing someone doesn't make them docile. Check out Egwene in the Tower. Or a few books back the Aes Sedai that Semirhage tortured.
Callandor: 2005-10-21
**1) Look at the a** kicking Moghedien got for being captured. Semirhage wouldn't risk that.**
Semirhage doesn't know about it. None of the Forsaken know they were mindtrapped. They have hints -- but they don't know.
**Last but not least. Her fireball at Rand makes me think of the last ditch effort to escape. She was told not to kill him yet she throws a fireball which appears weak but is still strong enough to kill him if it hits Rand correctly. Why was it weak well it's always possible that she was trying to fight off so many shields at that moment that she could not spare any more of her effort.**
So, she won't kill Rand -- then tries to kill him? Look, if Semirhage won't try to kill Rand when her disguise is broken (since that seems to be the time you say balefire is a no-no), why would she do a weaker, more easily broken, attack later on?
Aravan: 2005-10-21
Obviously, with Jordan's normal writing style we are left here without a lot of evidence to draw any absolute conclusions. However, I find it very hard to believe that Semirhage actually planned on being captured by Rand and Co. This is yet another time in the books where we see a group walking into a 'trap' yet because they know it's a trap they actually have the advantage. (Think Elayne and Nynaeve in Tanchico or Rand baiting Asmodean in the Waste.)
From the little we do know of the circumstances that lead to Semirhages capture here are the pieces that tend to point to her capture being a complete surprise to her:
1) She would have no way of knowing about the ter'angreal that Cadsuane and Nynaeve have between them, nor of their uses. Semi was obviously holding saidar but she was inverting her weaves and hiding her ability. The fact that there was a ter'angrel nearby that could detect someone holding the Power is something she would not have known. In a similar fashion, she could not have suspected that there was a ter'angreal nearby that would cause her MoM to flicker and allow them to see her true self.
2)We know that Nynaeve and Cadsuane are holding saidar before ever arriving and that they have masked their ability. Rand suggests for them to embrace the Source and is informed they have been holding it since leaving the hill where Bashere is waiting. We also can see from Rand's POV that he cannot feel the normal goosebumps associated with a woman holding the Power. Thus, Semirhage would have no way to know that there are at least 2 people in Rand's company that would be difficult to shield.
3)If the Aes Sedai are good at hiding their emotions, then the Forsaken are so schooled at doing so that it makes them look like children. This is obvious in Semirhages prideful bearing even after being captured. However, the fact that shock and rage were evident on her face when the MoM was disrupted gives a very clear indication that was VERY unexpected and interfered with her carefully laid plans. I would think that if someone linked with her via the a'dam they would find that inside she was far less confident. I seem to recall that when Nynaeve and Elayne had Moghedien collared they were amazed on several occasions by how her internal emotions could be roiling yet outwardly she was very serene and seemingly confident.
Were it not for the previously emphasized points, it's very likely that her apparent plan to capture and collar Rand and Co. would have succeeded. It is made clear that as soon as Rand sees Semirhage in her Tuon disguise he immediately relaxes and discounts the possibility of a trap as he can't believe the Seanchan would risk her. Had there been no ter'angreal to expose her as a fraud it's very plausible that she could have played out the charade to lower their guard and get everyone relaxed. At that point a simple signal would have been enough to tell the sul'dam to shield and bind the group and from there it is nothing to collar them.
I don't believe the fact that the box containing the a'dam was in 'plain view' inside the house even comes into play as a factor since she would have had to capture them outside. We know from the information following Semirhages capture that when Rand's followers go in to search the manor house they find several rooms with signs of a slaughter. It's very unlikely that Semirhage would have let them actually get in the house and thus risked raising their suspicions again.
All told, I think the above points are a good indication that Semirhage had no plans to be captured.
rhuidean: 2005-10-22
First post, just wanted to throw in a quote for this theory, I dont think anyone else has posted it yet.
Threads Woven of Shadow LoC - "The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces...And one daring way to capture your opponent's High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false atack." I think RJ mentions this for a reason. Rand is the Light's "High Counselor," and the Shadow has given up trying to kill him and been keeping him alive this long for a reason. I say that Semi gettin' herself captured plays into Rand being turned to the shadow.
jibbin: 2005-10-22
not sure if this was metioned, cos i skipped alot of replies.
*"No," Cadsuane replied grimly. "But I can do something about it. Once we're closer.*
I assume that this means that Cadsuane cuts through Semirhage's desguise, like Rand does when the Aes Sedai in Caemlyn, after thinking that Rand attacks one of them.
Yes. yes i know what you're all thinking. How come she didn't try, REALLY try to kill Rand? well, i seem to remember moridin saying something about him not being harmed, just after Lanfear reborn says she could find the location of the seals. He says...
*"... The time and manner of al'Thor's death will be at my choosing. No one else."
So she couldn't kill him and she couldn't run. Im not really sure where to go from here, but i dont think that she was trying to get caputered.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-22
jibbin, I doubt that any of the Forsaken are going to sacrifice their lives just to obey Moridin. Mesaana did it, and we know that she wasn't killed.
Tristin: 2005-10-22
thats a great quote rhuidian...i was completely against the idea that semirhage allowed herself to be captured but that has me wondering.
lurk: 2005-10-22
Actually some of the battles Rand fought with the forsaken weren´t that long either.
Aginor in TEoTW
Ishy in TEoTW
Ishy in TGH
Ishy in TDR
Bel´al in TDR
Even Nynaeve vs Moggy was not that long
But some were longer
Asmodean in TSR
Rahvin in TFoH
Sammael in aCoS
So it could be one of the shorter battles.
But it is not over yet, Semi will hurt Rand and those around him.
Time for Damer and Nynaeve to kill the `queen of healing` lol
silverwolf: 2005-10-22
"'She shouted for them to shield us,' Nynaeve said, 'but they couldn't because we were all holding the Power already. If we hadn't been, if Cadsuane and I hadn't had our ter'angreal, I don't know what would have happened.'" (KoD, p. 594). Simply put, Nynaeve thinks it was a close thing--not an easy capture. It should be noted that Nynaeve actually saw the whole thing, whereas Rand--and, through him, the reader--spent most of the battle lying on the ground. Also, Cadsuane--who is intelligent and used to intrigues--does not remark on the apparent ease of the capture--she, from what we have seen, doesn't think it was faked.
As to why a fireball instead of balefire: why did Cyndane attack Alivia with a fireball? Why did Demandred attack Flinn without balefire? Obviously there is some disadvantage to using balefire (maybe as simple as a lingering fear of its use, maybe something to do with the time or OP requirements) that is not readily apparent. The fireball also reminded me of Cyndane's in WH--small to escape detcetion, but big enough to blow a hole through its target.
As to why only 3 damane: According to the terms of the meeting, she limited herself and Rand to give her the advantage. More damane and sul'dam would have meant allowing more Aes Sedai/Asha'man, giving Rand a clear advantage. Fewer damane would have aroused suspicion--the DotNM has to have a proper bodyguard. Also, fewer damane/sul'dam meant fewer people she had to...dispose of...if she was forced to channel. No guards because they aren't needed--she would view even Deathwatch guards as mundane and useless.
It doesn't seem obviously faked to me, but I likely won't be convinced one way or another before the next book comes out--there simply isn't enough evidence between the capture and the end of Rand's storyline to create a full argument.
Anubis: 2005-10-22
**1) Look at the a** kicking Moghedien got for being captured. Semirhage wouldn't risk that.**
I think theres a big difference between getting captured carrying out a personal vandetta and getting captured carrying out the Dark Ones orders TO THE LETTER.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-22
silverwolf... firstly, the whole point of the three damane is that she should have BETRAYED him. Thats what one of the Chosen would do. You think she's an honorable person who is gonna stand by her agreements?
Secondly, there is a tactical reason for Cyndane not to use balefire at the Shadar Logoth battle. With so many people channeling such huge amounts, something that needs as much Power as balefire would attract unwanted attention from people much more powerful than she. Its not worth the risk. We already saw them target the gateways. So there was a definite risk to it her. Semirhage could have BFed, and then gatewayed out to regroup. But she didn't, which is telling evidence
Heron: 2005-10-23
I think her capture was faked because if you want to kill someone a better way would be to open a gateway next to a person fire balefire through at the victim and then close the gate. Since gates are only seen down one side you could open fire and close without the person knowing you were there. For this to work you'd need to know where the victim was going to be wich Sei did. My second point is that her mission is to spread chaos. Because the forsaken seem to have only one order from the DO/Moridin and that's to spread chaos. Semi has just come from putting all of the seachan back home into serious chaos and her next chaos spreading mission is to corrupt rand's party from within. She let herself be captured because in her arrgonace nothing they do will affect her because she belives they're weaklings and nothing can touch her because she's Semi.
So she let herself be captured because she thought she can scare them stupid really easily. But I think she's gonna get a rude awakeing when cadsuane gets hold of her.
lurk: 2005-10-23
I quickly checked the BWB where it states that Semirhage was just an average commander. So it is possible that she simply underestimated Rand and those with him.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-23
I'm still not understanding why you guys don't realize that it is totally within her purview to betray Rand. Just because she made a deal doesn't mean she's going to hold to it; thats basically what it means to be Chosen. Your entire argument is saying that Semirhage is an idiot, and she's NOT. She's incredibly intelligent, hence, this was not something I would expect her to do. Be a good tactical leader does NOT mean that you don't know what it means to say you're bringing 3 and actually bring like 30. She could have killed Rand before he knew what was going on. She could have killed in a myriad of different ways before he had any clue he was being killed, but instead tries to maintain this deception, EVEN AFTER IT FAILS. That doesn't seem like a real great asassination attempt to me...
Callandor: 2005-10-23
**Actually some of the battles Rand fought with the forsaken weren´t that long either.**
Not one of them is under half a page though. Semirhage is uncovered -- she attacks -- Rand's down -- battle over. Half a page or less. Maybe a full page altogether.
All of the ones you cited were at least 3 pages or more and open conflict between Rand and that Forsaken at least (and Nynaeve and Moghedien as well).
**As to why a fireball instead of balefire: why did Cyndane attack Alivia with a fireball? Why did Demandred attack Flinn without balefire? Obviously there is some disadvantage to using balefire (maybe as simple as a lingering fear of its use, maybe something to do with the time or OP requirements) that is not readily apparent.**
Uh, Cyndane specifically wanted to keep the weave small so Alivia didn't notice it. Demandred was retreating once Damer attacked him -- and he was trying to hide before that.
**I quickly checked the BWB where it states that Semirhage was just an average commander. So it is possible that she simply underestimated Rand and those with him.**
Even average commanders aren't stupid. Semirhage knows she is facing, and apparently trying to capture, the man and his coterie that just completely back-slapped the Forsaken at the Cleansing, of which she attended herself. She knows that Rand is powerful, and his group is at least capable and tricksome. Walking into a group of channelers whom you know are going to strong, and your target being easily debated as the strongest channeler living is just silly.
silverwolf: 2005-10-23
Two points: first, it would have been difficult for her to bring tons of damane without rousing suspicions. I agree that if she had intended to simply wipe out everyone with Rand and capture him, she might have tried that, but her plan was to capture everyone with him. Trying an all-out assault like you suggest would have been dumb--she knows Rand has Callandor and an access key to the Choedan Kal, so no matter how many damane she brought it would be a gamble at best. She didn't balefire him because the Forsaken, for whatever reason, avoid using balefire--look at Cyndane when she fights Alivia, Demandred when he fights Flinn, Arangar when she kills Eben, Graendal (or whoever you think that forsaken is) when she fights Verin's circle. If she had tried a major trap, to "kill Rand before he knew what was going on," the people he sent in front of him would probably noticed something. Even if they didn't, that kind of an ambush by the seanchan reeks of Semirhage's involvement to the other forsaken and the DO, so she would be SOL even if it worked. Simply put, actually trying to capture Rand was a better option than allowing herself to be captured or killing him. The fireball was probably just an attempt to take him out of the battle; if he had "even a spark of life" left, she could heal him after she won.
Callandor: 2005-10-23
** first, it would have been difficult for her to bring tons of damane without rousing suspicions.**
Yes, it's hard to get a metric ton of damane out to the meeting sight. But she could've gotten 15-20 quite easily, and just at the top of the Tarasin Palace. Screw people's flags going up -- the Shadow could've killed or captured Rand. What's the rest matter?
**I agree that if she had intended to simply wipe out everyone with Rand and capture him, she might have tried that, but her plan was to capture everyone with him.**
I don't see how that is stated. Why would she give a crap if Nynaeve was killed or if she was captured? She wanted Rand. Rand's the key. The rest can die.
**She didn't balefire him because the Forsaken, for whatever reason, avoid using balefire--look at Cyndane when she fights Alivia, Demandred when he fights Flinn, Arangar when she kills Eben, Graendal (or whoever you think that forsaken is) when she fights Verin's circle.**
All of these are in the context of the Cleansing. Doesn't cut it.
Look at Rahvin when Rand fights him. Look at Ishamael when Rand fights him in the Stone, and at Shadar Logoth. Look at what Osan'gar was going to do at the Cleansing even (remember -- he had Rand, not someone else, in sight)! Balefire is perfectly fine and unharmful to the Forsaken -- it's the situation that dictates it's usage. Semirhage, for whatever reason in the situation, did not use balefire.
Yet, she made an obvious attempt to kill Rand. But it was a weak, easily avoided, and almost certainly not successful attempt. WHY?!?
It's the fact you cannot get past at all:
When a Forsaken wants to kill Rand, they use balefire.
Let me guess -- to counter, Be'lal in the Stone, and Lanfear at the docks? Lanfear wanted to torture, not kill, Rand. Be'lal wanted Rand to live so that he could take Callandor and then be killed -- most likely, by balefire.
**If she had tried a major trap, to "kill Rand before he knew what was going on," the people he sent in front of him would probably noticed something.**
How? If she was already there and set up at the house before Rand got there, she could've had damane in the friggin trees if need be! Even then, they could kill the rest and leave Rand. But she came there after Rand.
Anubis: 2005-10-24
I think it was an honest attempt to capture him, with a contingancy plan of get captured and sow dissent among his followers by providing information such as: he hears LTTs voince in his head.
And the reason she used a fireball aimed at his hand? She wanted to disable him, not kill him.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-24
Anubis, its quite obvious she wasn't prepared to capture Rand. Nynaeve says it wasn't a done deal even without them noticing the channeling. Semirhage is NOT an honorable person, I cannot see why you're all overlooking that. She would have NO hesitation in bringing 1000 damane (if it were possible), and with more, she could capture Rand faster and just get out quickly. There is literally no possible rationale here to explain such a feeble attempt at capture, followed by an even more feeble attempt at killing.
Anubis: 2005-10-24
If she wasnt ready to capture Rand then why bother having extra A'Dam?
If she just wanted to make it look like she wanted to capture Rand then she only needed the one. She was prepared to succeed, and she was prepared to fail. It was a bad plan with a much better back up plan.
Sevas Tra: 2005-10-24
Perhaps she is going to try to get her hands on the last three seals and then make the black sister that is with Rand help smuggle her out.
Sevas Tra: 2005-10-24
I disagree with the idea that Semi would have put up bigger fight than she apparently did. Remember, the Dark One DOES NOT WANT RAND DEAD. She doesn't want the Dark One to become displeased with her. The consequences, without a doubt, would be extreme (that's a major understatement).
That little ball of fire knocked rand off his feet, blew off his hand and somehow impaired his vision. I don't see a small ball of fire doing all three of those things at once. And, since the POV is Rands, for all he knows she could have done something to his brain (she's suppose to be best at working with the brain of all the Restorers in the AOL). Only female channelers would be able to see the weaves for something like that. Maybe that's why Rand couldn't see clearly. Anyway, Semi wasn't aiming to kill.
The fact that she apparently ordered the sul'dam and damane to shield them isn't really suprising.
Here's why. Doing it herself would be difficult, even as strong as she is. Very likely one of the Asha'man would have channeled to kill and maybe the Aes Sedai also would have. If she did manage to shield them all Rand and the rest would become hostile, to put it lightly. And, the sul'dam know a woman channeling when they see it. Inverted weaves wouldn't help because most, if not all, of her effort would have to go into holding the shields. Nynaeve and Cadsuane would have known they were shielded and Asha'man, Aes Sedai and the rest would retaliate with any weapon they had on them. The sul'dam seeing the "High Lady Tuon" in danger would have tried to shield the Aes Sedai and in turn would discover shields already there. Reasoning that Rand and his gang would probably not shield themselves, the reason for them attacking "Tuon" becomes clear and they turn on Semi. I doubt any Forsaken could deal with so many channelers at once.
The only flaw in this argument that I can see is how to explain the ball of fire. Maybe the sul'dam would think it was just another strange occourance among all that seem to be going on (remember the guy spewing beetles?)
There's my view on it. Please feel free to critisize.
Callandor: 2005-10-24
**And the reason she used a fireball aimed at his hand? She wanted to disable him, not kill him.**
It wasn't aimed at his hand -- Rand put his hand in the path of the fireball, because he couldn't grasp the source.
** If she wasnt ready to capture Rand then why bother having extra A'Dam?**
Hows that imply she was ready to capture Rand, since a'dam work on women?
Sevas Tra: 2005-10-24
There is a Black sister with Rand, right? So, perhaps Semi means to get the Black to help her in taking the seals away from Rand. Then she would escape with the aid of the Black. Or, maybe Semi would just hurt her so badly that so that nobody becomes suspicious and the Black Ajah still has a string tied to Rand.
jibbin: 2005-10-24
In response to Ozymandias
**jibbin, I doubt that any of the Forsaken are going to sacrifice their lives just to obey Moridin. Mesaana did it, and we know that she wasn't killed. **
um, well she didnt die did she?
Ozymandias: 2005-10-24
Callandor, I'm pretty sure they we're male a'dam, since Nyn (who is irritable to be going through menopause at this point) basically flips out and starts railing at the non-present Egeanin for not destroying the male a'dam.
No matter how you look at this situation, naysayers, its pretty obviously a badly planned attack. Not a mediocre attack, a BAD one. What I feel you're all overlooking is that if Semi had been out to truly capture Rand, she would have brought more damane. There just isn't getting any around that fact. Had she wanted to kill after being discovered, she would have balefired. Had she wanted to get away, she would have gatewayed after the Mirror of Mists (whatever its called) dropped and gotten out to safety. She can do it, she's been there long enough (evidenced by the dead inside the house) to know the ground.
That blood brings up another interesting point. She obviously didn't mean to capture Rand... because leading ANYONE (except a gholam) into a house full of blood does NOT inspire trust. And she obviously wasn't looking to kill him in there... she would have done it outside.
'Splain that...
Callandor: 2005-10-25
**Callandor, I'm pretty sure they we're male a'dam, since Nyn (who is irritable to be going through menopause at this point) basically flips out and starts railing at the non-present Egeanin for not destroying the male a'dam.**
I do not see a reference for male a'dam in the post, though.
Anubis: 2005-10-25
**It wasn't aimed at his hand -- Rand put his hand in the path of the fireball, because he couldn't grasp the source. **
Ok... fair enough. But still. If it had been intended to kill him it would have. It was a little weak fireball and semerhage could have EASILY healed the damage.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-25
Yes... thats why we know she didn't come to assasinate him. And the overall poor quality of the situation shows it wasn't a serious attempt to capture him. Therefore... the only conclusion left is that she came to be captured
silverwolf: 2005-10-25
Rand had other people check out the area ahead of him. If Semi is as great a planner as you argue she is, she wouldn't try hiding a bunch of damane in the woods because she would know that Rand would scout ahead and not show if he suspected that level of treachery.
The idea that she wanted to capture his party is implied by the a'dam--both male and female--that she had enough of to capture his entire channeling entourage regardless as to the number of men or women in his group. I think she still thought the plan could work even once the MoM failed--she yelled for the Damane to shield people, and obviously some sort of battle ensued (injured members of Rand's party, dead sul'dam and damane). The fireball she threw at Rand--as I suggested in my previous post--was probably meant to distract/disable him, not to kill (the DO and Moridin's orders still stand). Also, I'll say again--I think the battle was closer than we were led to believe, but seen from Rand's point of view was over in less than a page (i.e.: it wasn't as easy as the POV lead us to believe). And you didn't address my argument that Cadsuane or Rand should have noticed if Semi intended to be captured.
Anubis: 2005-10-25
** If she wasnt ready to capture Rand then why bother having extra A'Dam?**
**Hows that imply she was ready to capture Rand, since a'dam work on women?**
If she had just wanted people to THINK she was going to capture Rand then she only needed one male A'dan. Why the extras?
The Weaver: 2005-10-25
I totally disagree that Semirhage faked her capture. First of all, her disguise faltered for some unknown reason, not giving her the opportunity she needed to be alone with Rand. I think that it is mentioned that when Illusion is cast, the caster cannot see the changes on herself but would need the help of a mirror. This explains why she didnt move. Second, there is no advantage gained by being captive. While it is true that she has escaped in the past, it does not mention her ever giving herself up. Moreover, Rand is not going to put Taim or anyone he doesnt trust to guard her. In fact, i believe that Rand will keep an eye on her himself, if he doesn't kill her first. Hope my first post doesnt get ravaged.
Callandor: 2005-10-26
**The fireball she threw at Rand--as I suggested in my previous post--was probably meant to distract/disable him, not to kill (the DO and Moridin's orders still stand).**
What Dark One order? The lord of chaos rule doesn't apply to Rand. The only thing standing was Moridin's saying that Rand was his to kill -- and it's not like the Forsaken were too worried about disobeying that one, you know, since none of them entertain the idea of removing him.
**And you didn't address my argument that Cadsuane or Rand should have noticed if Semi intended to be captured.**
Why? It's kinda hard to say the person was trying to be captured when they try to "kill" Rand. After all, look at how many people don't believe she was planning on being captured because of it?
Ozymandias: 2005-10-26
Silverwolf, I didn't address that claim because we can't. In the few minutes after the battle, everyone is exultant of capturing a Chosen and worried about Rand. No time for realizing how comparatively easy it was to take her (compared to what it could have been, dont give me drivel about Rand losing his hand, he could have died of been BFed just as easily).
Weaver, I have only one thing to say to your claim about MoM. She did know it dropped. If you can explain this away, I'll be impressed; "She... flickered. For an instant, she was taller than most men, garbed all in back, SUPRISE on her face" (KoD, 587). Yes... I'm sure she was just happening to be surprised for no discernible reason at that exact moment... oh wait! Thats when her disguise drops... thats not rational though, so I think we should dismiss the whole idea.
Anubis: 2005-10-26
**What Dark One order? The lord of chaos rule doesn't apply to Rand. The only thing standing was Moridin's saying that Rand was his to kill -- and it's not like the Forsaken were too worried about disobeying that one, you know, since none of them entertain the idea of removing him. **
most of the forsaken have been off doing their own thing. for the most part, semerhage has been following the dark ones orders exactly. I doubt she intended to kill Rand. For one, if the fireball took his hand it could have easily taken his life, but it didnt. and for two, she was the best healer ever, if someone could bring a mostly dead rand back to life and capture him, its her. I think the fireball was a disabling shot.
And besides.... with Rand out of the picture its Semerhage and some Dammae VS a bunch of half trained ignorant savages. It was a good plan if you take the fireball as a disabling tactic, unfortunatly Semerhages arrogance toward modern channelers and Cadsuanes impressive collection of ter angreal screwed her over.
Callandor: 2005-10-26
**If she had just wanted people to THINK she was going to capture Rand then she only needed one male A'dan. Why the extras?**
Why bring them if she was just going to capture Rand??
**for the most part, semerhage has been following the dark ones orders exactly. I doubt she intended to kill Rand.**
But what Dark One order is she following here?
**For one, if the fireball took his hand it could have easily taken his life, but it didnt.**
Yeah... because Rand put his hand in the way, and it would've been an easy thing to take care of had he been able to grasp the source.
**and for two, she was the best healer ever, if someone could bring a mostly dead rand back to life and capture him, its her. I think the fireball was a disabling shot.**
But you just said her shot could've easily killed Rand. Death isn't Healable -- so why throw the fireball? If she wanted to kill him, why not use balefire?
Tristin: 2005-10-27
There are a couple of reasons why I disagree with this theory, although some of the evidence is compelling. I like the Moridin quote about sacrificing your pieces and I agree that the fight seemed ridiculously short...but we did see from the POV of someone who spent the battle on his ass.
When Cadsuane unravels her illusion: "she...flickered. For an instant, she was taller than most men, garbed all in black, SURPRISE on her face...another flicker, and the tall dark woman stood there, her face TWISTED IN FURY"
then she shouted for the damane to shield them. To be fair they put up a pretty good fight if it hadn't been for the angreal and terangreal Rand's party would have lost...notice how messed up they all are with broken bones sticking out and what not.
Even Rand notes..."She really thought she could capture all of us" when seeing the male a'dam."
If someone wanted to argue that Semirhage got captured on purpose it should be pointed out that she did more damage than just the hand. Rand is now permanently bleeding from the wounds in his side. This could easily have been an order from the DO in the hopes of fulfilling some Dark Prophecy about blood on the rocks. Also, she exposes LTT in his head and I'm not exactly sure why.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-27
She exposes LTT because people will now question Rand's sanity and therefore question the validity of his orders and cause. Which supports my thesis. In addition, had this been a true capture attempt, Semirhage would have had a gateway ready and inverted to bring more channelers through. He's THE DRAGON REBORN. SHE KNOWS HE'S MORE POWERFUL (if not better trained) THAN HER. Remember, Semirhage has no idea Rand can't easily access the Source. And the entire battle takes place without Rand. You all seem to forget that while discussion how close it was. If Rand had had access to the Source, he would have MORE than tipped the balance in favor of his men. At least made it long enough for his army to jump out and help.
It was poorly planned and had literally no hope of capturing him. Had Semirhage been serious, she would have hidden a few damane in the trees, or in the house. No scouts went in the house... they didn't see the blood splashed around. She couldhave hidden a gateway and inverted it so no one could see, and then brought in 10 more damane to help out. COME ON, its staring you in the face. There is no way to get around the fact that she would have brought more firepower if hse had truly wanted to capture/kill Rand. All I want is for someone to address that point intelligently. Just start there, and give an explanation for her lack of enough power to win easily. She isn't known as a gambler, so she won't take a huge risk like this without enough assurance of succeeding (meaning like 99%).
Anubis: 2005-10-27
**But you just said her shot could've easily killed Rand. Death isn't Healable -- so why throw the fireball? If she wanted to kill him, why not use balefire?**
I meant that the fireball could have killed Rand if it had been intended to. If throwing his hand up blocked the fireball then I highly doubt it was meant to kill him. Semerhage could have easily made it powerful enough to rip through his hand, and face, and whatever was behind him, but she didnt.
Im agreeing with you, she did not want to kill him, but she could have.
silverwolf: 2005-10-28
I've never argued that Semirhage meant to only capture Rand and none of his companions(any wording that seems to indicate this was an argument that she did not want to kill him, only capture him); quite the contrary--I have argued that she meant to capture everyone with Rand, male or female.
As to why not more firepower--why bother if you are already confident of victory?
As to Semirhage not knowing of Rand's difficulty with channeling: how do we know she didn't know? As I recall, Rand's difficulty at this point was that LTT--whom Semirhage knows about--was trying to sieze the source at the same time. Also, there was another instance, in TPoD, where Rand--quite publicly--was unable to siezed the source to deflect and arrow (the one shot at him by Egan Padros, or w/e the Illianer rebel's name was); since we are constantly reminded of how many spies the Forsaken have around Rand, it is conceivable that Rand's sickness is known to the Forsaken by now.
Tristin: 2005-10-28
with Rand in the fight it would definitely be easier, but haven't the Forsaken always underestimated any non-AOL channeller?
I think it is possible that she just wanted to be captured but I have no idea why. It doesn't make sense because I can't really see what kind of damage she could do hanging around. Rand rarely ever stays in one place and he normally doesn't drag prisoners around with him.
the strength of Rand's party is WAY more than she could have anticipated. If Rand had taken the normal run of channellers with him...i.e., anyone from before the books began...he would have definitely lost even if he was channeling. Add in the new generation of super channelers and all their nice toys and he has a hidden advantage.
To me the surprise and anger and all that is genuine. How could semirhage have known that the fight would go down the way it did...that her illusion would get unravelled.
I'm not saying she can't use the capture to her advantage I'm sure that could be possible and it could possibly have even been plan B if she couldn't capture him or whatever...but I don't think she meant it to go down like that.
I'm curious as to what everyone thinks about the continuous bleeding of the unhealable wounds?
a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-28
I'm a little bit surprized about everybody is discussing only the alternative of Semirhague planning to capture Rand or to be captured herself. There is also another possibility - that Semirhague planned only to come near Rand and to scheme around him using the fake DotNM. Semirhague was clearly surprized when her MoM was revealed, i.e. Semirhague wasn't planning to reveal that she is Semirhague. Semirhague's talents are not talents of an actress, she is specialized rather in the open manifesting of dangers, so I doubt she would fake her surprise in that moment. Actually without her wanting to arrange herself being revealed, how could she plan to be captured? And she is surprised about being revealed.
It's possible Semirhague wanted to capture Rand, but it's possible also that the e've was only a Plan B while the main plan would be to come near to Rand under conditions he wouldn't refuse (due to the importance of the Seanchan for any possible Rand's plans).
As about the lack of covering force in case of planned capture, it is needed to make Rand's party agreeing to come. Semirhague had many possible sources to know that Rand acts is quite ssupicious now, so if she would believe that he would come to her alone while she has thousands of damane around her, it would mean that Semirhague is either surprisingly uninformed about Rand's conditions, or that she is just stupid. No one of both options is likely. Semirhague rather planned to use surprise (of being not what Rand believes to see). Something that failed because Semirhague was the one who was surprised.
And the little fireball - don't you remember the first weapon another Forsaken - Lanfear, used against Alivia during the Cleansing? Wasn't it also a little fireball? So why isn't is a sudden first attack a female Forsaken would apply when she wants to deal fast with a sudden problem?
I don't believe Semirhague wanted to kill Rand with the fireball. Her whole preparations were rather for using Rand in another fashion, and she would ruin all her plans only if she is in panic. As did Osan'gar in Cairhien palace. But I don't think that Semirhague has such "guilty conscience" like Osan'gar. Semirhague has definitely a character different of Osan'gar's. And if any Forsaken would control herself under extreme surprising pressure it would be Semirhague. So she would try to disable the danger of Rand without losing him (and without ruining her own plans about Rand).
Tristin: 2005-10-28
I'm not sure the size of the fireball is at all indicative of her not wanting Rand dead. For all we know she was devoting everything to not being shielded by Rand's party and didn't have anything else left except a trickle of fire to spare.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-28
Why would she be confident of victory? She has the element of surprise, yes, but against her are SIX channelers PLUS Rand, who is certainly more powerful than she. She must know they'll probably have an angreal or ter'angreal to help in case of betrayal, if not the Choedan Kal for extra extra security (not like any Seanchan can use it, so risking it falling into the wrong hands is minimal). Against all these uncertainties, she has herself and three channelers (sul'dam cannot be counted). She is somehow expecting her and six women to physically and with the Power overpower Rand and his friends. No, I don't see any reason for her to be confident of victory, especially since her scheming mind will most likely see a betrayal (which Rand technically does by bringing the army). Your saying she totally discounted all this, even though she had weeks to think about it. And yeah... walking in to a room full of blood is really gonna make him relaxed when time comes to capture him.
Be reasonable
Tristin: 2005-10-28
saying that it is unreasonable to think that she didn't plan on getting captured is ridiculous. Just because you think the passage is too short and we don't get anything form Semirhage's perspective doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that she planned it. How many times have we seen the forsaken screw up because they do something stupid or because they underestimate the enemy--answer?---EVERY TIME.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-28
Tristin... I disagree strongly. Sammael screwed up for two reasons. One, he was unwilling to leave an area he had claimed as his own. Two, he didn't expect Rand to have help from Moridin. Thats the ONLY reason Rand won that little skirmish. Not overconfidence, luck. Balthamel was killed by the Green Man, and Aginor had a superior channeler coming against him who wrested control of the Eye from him. That might be underestimating, but not to this level. Semirhage is not confronting an untrained Rand, and she has specifically let him bring DOUBLE the numbers of channelers she did. Thats not arrogance, thats stupidity. Underestimating his strength is arrogance; purposely bringing less force is stupidity or a clever plan. I thought the latter, since Semi isnt dumb
You cannot write everything off as arrogance. The Chosen are smart and knowledgeable. Semirhage had absolutely NOTHING going for her from the outset. Except surprise, but no one ambushes someone else with inferior forces when they have the ability to overwhelm that other force in the same ambush.
KINGofWOLVES: 2005-10-28
This is a really long thread, so this might have already been mentioned. Semirhage's capture has already led to a huge blow to rand personally. When she told everyone about the voice in his head, everyone kinda gave him a weird look. When she said hat it was worse in a way for and than if he really did hear voices, i pictured themall backing away and avoiding eye contact. With just a few sentences after being captured, she has planted a little seed of dissention among rands followers.
Anubis: 2005-10-28
**One, he was unwilling to leave an area he had claimed as his own.**
that would fall under stupidity...
and besides, the Forsaken have nothing but contempt for modern channelers. Why would semerhage fear them? especially after killing the ENTIRE seanchan royal family? people who would assumedly have dammae on call...
Ozymandias: 2005-10-29
***that would fall under stupidity...
and besides, the Forsaken have nothing but contempt for modern channelers. Why would semerhage fear them? especially after killing the ENTIRE seanchan royal family? people who would assumedly have dammae on call...***
It's not stupidity, it's a character quirk that worked against him. He was far from stupid. As much as he claimed he hated intrigue, he showed he was capable of it in that little scene with Graendal with "do they bind themselves like criminals". He just couldn't have left. It wasn't stupidity, it was a certain aspect of his personality. And besides, Sammael would have WON, had it not been for Moridin, a totally random variable in the whole SL fight. So its even less stupidity. Sammael made the RIGHT decision in staying, since it nearly resulted in Rand's death. Had it not been for betrayal from another Chosen, it would have worked. Far from stupidity. And totally unrelated to the Semirhage situation, at that.
Semirhage managed to kill the entire royal family of Seanchan for a number of reasons she doesn't have with Rand. Culturally, its easier because she can use Compulsion on the Empress, have her order the damane out, order the royal family in, and kill them all with none the wiser, because everyone obeys the Empress to the word. The Empress also wouldn't suspect a trap, while Rand very much does. The Empress doesn't have 6 super tense and overprotective channelers on hand who are already grasping the Source. Given the Seanchan disdain for channeling, I doubt the Empress has channeler-attendants.
silverwolf: 2005-10-29
One thing that's been brought up repeatedly is that the bloodstains within the house would have warned Rand, but I don't think so. The men who searched the house said that several rooms had bloodstains, but did not mention the main rooms specifically--she could have removed any bloodstains in areas they would be in by channeling them out. Of course, that raises the question of why she didn't have a bunch of damane and sul'dam waiting hidden in the house, ready to ambush when Rand and company came in...I think, in that case, that her reasoning would boil down to a lack of trust, even of the damane/sul'dam.
Conclusion: RJ should have written more to this storyline after the capture :)
PrinceOfTheDawn: 2005-11-11
I keep reading that Semi only had a total of three channelers (three sets of suldam/damane combos). In the capture scene, doesn't it say that three sets of suldam/damane flank Semi/Tuon to either side of her? That would mean a total of 6 channelers, equivalent to what Rand should be bringing as well. I don't have my book in front of me, but I think it says this. I'll repost later tonight if I reread it to mean only three channelers.
By the way, I'm totally new here (this is my first post) but I used to post heavily on another site. Hello everyone!
haertchen: 2005-11-12
"I think, in that case, that her reasoning would boil down to a lack of trust, even of the damane/sul'dam."
Perhaps more the the point, she doesn't trust the Seanchen leadership to not get suspicious when half an army of damane goes missing and she hasn't told them why...
Remember that she had to work within the Seanchen culture, and with Tuon gone she was a suspect (certainly the Seekers would wonder) rather than one of the most influental women in Randland.
guyminuslife: 2006-03-23
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Ozy. I'd also like to add some more support.
(1) Every time we see Semirhage at gatherings of Forsaken, she's always plotting with Demandred and Mesaana. They're pretty cliquish.
(1a) If there's any lesson that the Forsaken have learned in the past 11 books, it's that it's not a good idea to confront Rand directly. Be'lal did it. Rahvin did it. Sammael did it. Balthamel did it. Aginor did it twice. Lanfear did it. Asmodean did it. The results? Balefire, balefire, unspeakable horror, reincarnated as a woman, reincarnated as an Asha'man, disappeared, killed by ________. Most of the rest of them try to keep a low profile.
(1b) So if we give Semirhage any credit, we should say that most likely if she's serious about taking down Rand, she's going to bring her buddies Demandred and Mesaana with her. They don't have to link to take him down.
(1c) The thing is, this looks like a really badly botched attempt. One Forsaken and a few damane. It reminds me of Sammael's feeble attempts in CoT.
But...
(2) If anyone is in a position to take Rand apart from the inside, it's Semirhage.
(2a) She is, as Ozy mentions, experienced in being a prisoner and probably has no doubts she can get away.
(2b) She's not really busy right now. Seandar's already in ruins. Mesaana's still in the White Tower--there should always be a Forsaken there, just to be sure---and Demandred is probably still doing whatever it is that Demandred does. (Side note: I'm still crying over RJ's response to the Taimandred theory.) Semirhage's got the time.
(2c) Here's the important part: she's not likely to betray the Dark One. Being captured didn't reall work out for Moghedien or Asmodean, but then, they're both cowards who fear pain. Semirhage loves taking pain almost as much as she loves giving it out, so there's no way she could be tortured into giving anything away. If you tried she'd probably laugh at you. At the same time, she knows she's too valuable as a prisoner to be killed, so really, there's nothing for her to be worried about.
But the question is...what's she going to try to do? Is she trying to get information, or is she trying to get close enough to be able to more directly sabotage Rand's plans? Will she be working in conjunction with Demandred and Messana on the outside (communicating, perhaps, through T'A'R), or is she acting as a rogue agent trying to strike a deal with Rand?
I don't think that it's going to be possible to predict. RAFO! RAFO! Make RJ rich! RAFO!
ThunderWalker: 2006-03-24
If Semirhage was planning on being captured -- how was she planning to do it? Her surprise and rage at having her disguise revealed sort of implies that that wasn't how she was planning on it happening.
Maybe whe wanted Rand to capture "Tuon".
Maybe her stratagy was:
Plan A) She was going to stage a weak attempt to capture Rand, counting on her party being captured. She was probably fairly confident the read Tuon was out of the picture, and she wanted to be captured as a non-channeling Tuon. If she appeared to not be a channeller, they would have no reason to shield her. She could then work on Rand, etc. from the inside using a combination of Psychology and the occational inverted weaves.
Plan B) On the off-chance the capture of Rand succeeded, she had the bracelets handy. If the "sad-bracelets" provide a linking, Semirhage would have an advantage of being linked with a powerful mail chaneller.
I think that those ter'angreal that detected and interfered with channeling were a complete surprise to her. Being revealed was not part of her plan.
When she was discovered, she decided to go with a modified Plan A. She has a lot of confidence in herself. After all, she was able to talk her jailors into letting her escape. This is during the AoL, with whatever high security they had (the jailors were probably channelers).
Regarding Balefire. Months ago in this thread, Callandor said:
**Be'lal wanted Rand to live so that he could take Callandor and then be killed -- most likely, by balefire.**
The consequenses of Balefire are severe. In this case, Bel'al couldn't use balefire, because if he did, Callandor would become stuck in the Stone again (since Rand's actions would have been reversed).
Rand is Ta'veren. What would happen if you balefired a Ta'veren? A Ta'veren has a LOT of influence over the pattern. Removing him (in the past) would affect a very large portion of the pattern. For example, Rand walks through a village, and 20 couples marry. Balefire him the next day, and the whole village is affected, even if Rand spoke to noone as he passed through.
Anyway, that is an asside. Semirhage was likely counting on either being captured, or doing the capturing. (And who knows, she may even have in accomplices she is counting on to bail her out if necessary.)
JakOShadows: 2006-03-24
guyminuslife:
I won't address you whole speal there because you've probably read all the arguments above. But I was just wondering why Semirhage would want to make a deal now? Look at the situation. The LB is coming soon and everybody knows it. Randland is in turmoil and chaos has been properly sown all over the place. Why turn all of the sudden? I don't see any incentive to turn against the DO when from her pov they are on the verge of breaking the DO free and ruling the world.
guyminuslife: 2006-03-26
JakOShadows:
Well I skimmed most of it. Quite a bit to read even considering I'm procrastinating a paper.
I don't think she is going to try to turn. I don't think that fits with her personality or her situation. I have no idea what she *is* going to do, which is one of the reasons why Robert Jordan needs to hurry up and write the next book. I simply put that in there to illustrate that there are many possible plot twists that we as readers have no way to figure out.
I'd say that maybe she could "turn" and then use her connections with Demandred and Mesaana to betray Rand, but that's pretty ridiculous since it's unlikely that anyone would believe her, least of all the reader.
Ishamael666: 2006-03-27
About the balefire-Be'lal could have just baleifred Rand with a tiny amount of the Power, just enough to eliminate Rand's thread a few seconds back. Semmy could have done the same, and would have if she wanted to kill Rand.
Plus, the Forsaken have figured out by now that direct assault on Rand is far from the best idea. Let's look at who's tried it:
Aginor-OD'd on the Power, and didn't even create a cool mountain like Lews Therin.
Baalthamel-Killed by the Jolly Green Giant, ressurected as a woman.
Be'lal-Balefired.
Ishamael-Got Callandor thrust through him.
Asmodean-Partially shielded, later killed with no possibility of resurrection.
Lanfear-Disappeared into Finnland.
Rahvin-Balefired.
Sammael-Swallowed by Mashadar.
Osan'gar-Burnt up (again).
With that track record, Semmy would never have thought that she would be able to capture/kill Rand.
Also, is the prohibition on assinating Rand still in effect on the Forsaken?
Ozymandias: 2006-03-28
Well this is getting off the track of the theory, but I have to say that the death's of the other Chosen would not be a deterrent to the rest of the living Chosen. For one, a lot of these were a result of good luck on Rand's part; Be'lal and Lanfear were really killed by Moiraine. They all viewed Ishamael as insane anyways, and probably don't doubt he did something crazy which got him killed. Graendal comments a few times about how Sammael was a fool for defending what was his to the death, and in saying this basically says she think Sammael died because he was a fool. You can bet that the rest of the Chosen think along similar lines. Balthamel was killed by an extraneous factor, and Asmodean was captured by Lanfear, really (though the Chosen will assume he turned). Since Rand is Lews Therin reborn, no one would doubt his ability to hold the OP is unrivaled, since he was the strongest of his Age, so in a contest of sheer strength, Aginor didn't stand a chance. That pretty much clears the list. All of the Chosen are arrogant, and will assume they won't make the same dumb mistakes the others did. And Semirhage's mistake is SO dumb that its falsness is obvious! They know Rand's capabilities by now, and more than that, they know he has a number of unquestionably loyal channelers (some Asha'man, Aes Sedai) and a large army to boot. So he is not to be trifled with. And Semirhage regards him with as little respect as Aginor and Balthamel, before Rand's capabilities were even known. Its all just a little fishy, to me
JakOShadows: 2006-03-28
Ishamael666:
The ban is still on the forsaken, he is not supposed to be killed. And I think that is part of what proves that it was a surprise, because the fireball can hurt Rand if she is not careful. I think she just got overconfident. The fight was fairly close to even, she just underestimated to tools the AS had. As Nynaeve said, if they hadn't already been holding saidar, they would have been caught. So she made a miscalculation, and even so, I think she calculated better than some of the other forsaken considering the circumstances. And you also got to remember that since Tuon had left, she had to change her plan as well, otherwise she might have just tried to convince Tuon to do it herself. So in some ways, she may have been forced to make a move on Rand due to events that occured recently.
sogoloth: 2006-03-29
It just seems like the entire battle and capture was a bit too easy. Yes I know that Ny said that it was a close battle, but wouldn't it make sense if you were trying to get caught that you'd do your best to make it seem as close a call as possible? After all if it was too easy it wouldn't be all that hard to figure out you WANTED to be captured. In order to achieve whatever devious goal Semi has (assuming she did want to be captured) it would be IMPERATIVE that no one suspect she was captured on purpose.
As for Semi's surprise, she was obviously taken off guard by her MoM being disrupted - but her reaction was to spring the "trap", maybe ahead of schedule for her original plan. None-the-less I think it likely that even if she was forced into early action the tactics and end result she desired were the same - capture.
I just find it hard to believe her so easily subdued. The battle sequence and timeline it took for this all to take place was WAY smaller than for any of the other Forsaken. Even given the fact that Rand's POV was not witness to the entire event, it still was over in a flash when compared to the other Forsaken battles. It just seemed a little too neat, too perfect. Altogether too easy and convenient, given the trouble the other Forsaken gave Rand when he took them out. While the Forsaken are arrogant about their abilities compared to the newer channelers, they aren't stupid. They would most likely know that Rand was surrounded with the best this age had available.
As for those citing Semi's "average general" abilities as the cause of her downfall, I would not equate her abilities to command armies with this scenario, it isn't even close honestly. It was a small skirmish at best. And besides, who says that she was the organizer of this event? I believe it makes more sense that Ishy planned this event for reasons as-of-yet unrevealed. Certainly he has been reigning in the Forsaken, and as it gets closer to TG it's all the more important that the Forsaken cooperate and stop their own plotting. While I know they will never stop that, it still makes sense that Ishy would do his best to keep them in line and focused on the DO's goals. And giving them tasks, especially one as potentially important as a fake capture would elude to, would be a great way to ensure their continued obedience and loyalty to the DO.
JakOShadows: 2006-03-30
sogoloth:
I see what you are saying, but it doesn't seem like a logical move to me. Unless Moridin purposely told her to do it this way, and planned for her to get capture without telling her. But I think that if Semmy had brought more it would have looked conspicuous, and Tuon is also not there so she would look conspicuous dragging a whole bunch of the army and sal'dam out of Saender. Or it could be that's all she could get to follow her in the chaos of the revolution she started. They did seem to be a poor choice as far maturity goes. But my main point was she was forced to move will ill prepared and very little resources. This was probably the right time to strike and she knew she would have to make a move soon. Like if your playing chess, and you know you have to stop your opponents attack, so you attack him also to force him to defend and buy some time for yourself. It's dangerous, but it can work if done properly. So this tactic is not completely out of the question. Just because it didn't have massive armies and looked ill prepared is not a reason for it to be a planned capture by Semirhage or Moridin. You also have to have a motive, and this late in the game, I don't know if this would have worked.
But I did think your comment that Moridin sent her was interesting. It is quite possible he saw her as a threat and wanted her to be removed, and he knew she would be beneficial and sowing chaos. But like I said before, it would be risky this close to go time to purposely give away one of your strongest channelers.
Khazhul: 2006-03-30
I still just can't buy into Semi letting herself be captured. The strongest points I see for it are:
1. She had too small of a party to really pose Rand a threat. Well this is answered by the fact that Rand wouldn't have even showed up if the agreed upon numbers were wrong.
2. She has previously had experience as a captive. Look, seriously, I once talked my way out of a speeding ticket. That doesn't mean I'm going to start blowing by cops going 20 over whenever I see them. The consequences of her punishment are too great for her to seriously consider getting caught.
3. The fight was too easy. I don't see how we can say that. It seemed easy because Rand was knocked out the entire time. So yeah I guess it did seem quick and easy since our POV at the time was with Rand. Nynaeve, who has fought Forsaken before said it was a close call. If I remember correctly, Cadsuane was standing next to her and didn't disagree but Nynaeve is enough really. Rand barely survived that fight too. He just got his arm up in time to block the blow. Are you saying she was counting on that? He would be dead if he didn't. Sure she could have used balefire, and why didn't she? Who knows, we don't know enough of how she operates to know if she is a big balefire user.
4. Moridin sent her for whatever reason he has to be captured. We don't even really know this. We can assume the capture attempt orders came from him since he is in charge, but to take that one step further and assume he would sacrifice one of his key players? One that hasn't yet to our knowledge messed up in any way? Semi isn't mind trapped, she still has free will.
I thought this battle was a nice refresher, it was different. It wasn't some long 3 chapter balefire episode that went in and out of TAR. It was one Forsaken who got the best of Rand and his friends/followers/companions saved him. To me this is just an incident where Rand had to rely on others where he failed.
Ozymandias: 2006-03-30
Saying that if Semirhage brought more force with her would have been seen as conspicuous is ridiculous. Who CARES if you seem conspicuous, the idea is to shield and capture the entire delegation before anyone knows! That entire argument is ridiculous because there was absolutely no need for secrecy once Rand arrived, if capturing him was indeed the plan. So, Jak, that entire line of argument is moot. If her plan was actually to capture Rand, she could have brought 100 damane, shielded Rand as he stepped through a gateway, and then made her own gateway to safety before anyone could react. Overwhelming force would have served her in this case. Unless her she had a different objective, one in which a small amount of force was needed, but not too much. And then, it all comes back to the fireball. Why make such an inferior weapon of the Power to maim, when she could just as easy have killed? There is no reponse to these questions within the premise that Semirhage's true intent was to capture Rand.
ThunderWalker: 2006-03-30
I still think it likely she wanted to be captured as "Tuon". Now that her MoM has been disrupted, she can no longer take her place as Anath. The Sul'dam are going back to tell the other Seanchan that Anath is Semirhage. Her cover has been blown. Of course, she has already done a lot of damage, so maybe no longer needed to pose as Anath. The real Tuon showing up to take her place as empress is also not good for her.
JakOShadows: 2006-04-01
Ozy:
Yes, Semirhage could have brought a hundred damane, but if she did that, Rand would know it for a trap and get out of there. She wanted to lure him into the trap, make him feel confident. If he is going to try and runaway as soon as he arrives, that greatly lowers the chances that she will capture him. And plus, the difference in the battle could also have been that there were channelers all around them. Whereas previous times Rand has taken on a forsaken, it has been a one-on-one duel so to speak. So the type of battle is also different. So just because the trap was set up a little bit differently than other forsaken traps were, it doesn't mean she wanted to get captured. It just means the situation and how she wanted to accomplish it were different.
thunderwalker:
It is an interesting idea, but the MoM would be figured out fairly soon even without the ter'angreal Cadsuane had. Remember how that trick doesn't physically change you, so with enough poking a prying they would realize it is a disguise. The amount of time it would take could depend on how elaborate it is, but it seems she just intended it to be use at a distance to either get him to lower his guard against the Seanchan or capture him. It obviously was intended for a prolonged encounter with Rand's party.
Ozymandias: 2006-04-22
Jak, thats what a gateway is for. You group a hundred damane in a room in Ebou Dar, wait until Rand is in sight, and BAM, open a gateway and send in the reinforcements. If performed right, your in and out very quickly. My only point is that its highly suspicious that she showed up with so few people, less than she had agreed Rand could bring, even, in order to capture him. Remember that damane and sul'dam are really only one channeler, so she has 3 channelers with her, and Rand has 6.
haertchen: 2006-04-23
***Jak, thats what a gateway is for. You group a hundred damane in a room in Ebou Dar, wait until Rand is in sight, and BAM, open a gateway and send in the reinforcements.***
Rand's group was jumpy going into this. Even though they didn't know Semirhage was involved, they didn't trust the Seanchen. A single sign of a gateway, and a full-fledged power battle would have started almost instantly. Ashaman gating in, etc. Very hard to predict what would happen, especially if you happen to be in close quarters with the people fighting. Bad, bad, bad if you think you have a better way.
***If performed right, your in and out very quickly.***
Performed wrong and you're dead along with the Dragon Reborn. Maybe even killed by your own side. Depending on the DO's priorities sending you in, you may not even get a new body.
***My only point is that its highly suspicious that she showed up with so few people, less than she had agreed Rand could bring, even, in order to capture him. Remember that damane and sul'dam are really only one channeler, so she has 3 channelers with her, and Rand has 6.***
If you think you have an advantage that trumps any of the untrained children's, firepower may not matter nearly as much as being certain the target doesn't bolt befor he's been hooked. A fisherman is outnumbered by the fish, but wins because he knows something they don't know. He's got avoid making any sudden movements, though, in order to catch anything.
AndyalThor: 2006-12-12
First of all, this being my first ever reply, I give greetings to you all!
Your theory is based on a section of a chapter in Knife of Dreams.
When basing theories on a certain section of a chapter, it would be best to quote the entire section, don't you agree?
This, I find that you have failed to do.
Now, I have the book before me, and I will type the section you are referring to word for word.
When you take words out, or only write part of what is said, you lose some of the meaning, and I shall try and point out that there is more meaning to this section than what you are basing this theory on.
(Knife of Dreams, Chapter 27, Pages 587-588) "Leaving the horses standing, he started toward the sul`dam and damane with Cadsuane and Nynaeve a little distance to either side of him. Logain, hand resting on his sword hilt as if that were his real weapon, strode along on the other side of Cadsuane, Narishma and Sandomere beyond Nynaeve. The small dark woman began walking toward them slowly, holding her pleated skirts up of the damp ground. Abruptly, no more than ten paces away, she...flickered. For an instant, she was taller than most men, garbed all in black, surprise on her face, and though she still wore the veil, her head was covered with short-cut wavy black hair. Only an instant before the small woman returned, her step faltering as she let her white skirts fall, but another flicker, and the tall dark woman stood there, her face twisted in fury behind the veil. He recognized that face, though he had never seen it before. Lews Therin had, and that was enough."
Now, I want you to pay attention to the fact that Semirhage was surprised that her reverted weave, that no-one but her would be able to see, failed. Hardly something you would expect of someone with her experience if it was planned....she wouldn't be surprised at all, now would she?
And as well as that, she tried to reform the weave, but failed again, very visibly making her very angry.
Does this seem logical if it was planned? I doubt it very strongly.
Also, you forget that the Forsaken very rarely do Plan B's.....that would mean planning for failure.
Now, the Dark One is hardly lenient when it comes to failure, as is evident in both Moghedien and Cyndane mindtraps. You thing Semirhage would be willing to contemplate the same fate? I don't. A fate she surely will suffer because of her recent failure.
Her being calm has nothing to do with planning to be captured, but rather that she realises that there is no point denying who she is, no point being upset about being captured, because she cannot do anything about it at the moment(other than try to sow dissent, as she is trying to grasp at straws). If she is executed, more than likely, she doubts it'll be by Balefire, and so, she can see a way back, because the Dark One has housed Moridin, Cyndane, Osan`gar(who is now dead, of course)and Aran`gar in new bodies. At this point, I think she will rather be killed quickly, than be made to give out secrets(like Moghedien helping Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve), as the punishment from the Dark One would be similar to that of Cyndane and Moghedien.
So, in conclusion, there is no evidence in this chapter that she planned getting captured....quite the opposite, she was planning to capture Rand and the people with him.
Melchoir: 2006-12-12
I'm going to start my response to this in a bit of a different way.
Imagine Moiraine in EotW. Imagine Siuan as Amyrlin. Imagine all the sisters who were tempted to bond Rand to control him. Imagine most any Red sister.
Now imagine all of these shown an e've, a definate way to control Rand. Now add in someone who is very competent at placing doubt from within an enemy camp. Given a way to control Rand, and increasing fear that he is going insane, how many Aes Sedai would be very tempted to use the e've. Given the Aes Sedais' freedom in interpreting their oath to Rand, if they were convinced that it truly was for his best, how many might be tempted to leash him.
Would this be damaging to Rand's cause? I think so, I think it would be quite damaging. Now add to that, how are the loyal Asha'man going to react to this news. We now have the support of both Aes Sedai and Asha'man (such as it is) weakened even further.
And what if Rand himself becomes convinced that he needs to be leashed. Hear me out. He is impaired. He can no longer trust his ability to channel. His latest lapse has cost him his hand, what will his next lapse loose him? Min perhaps? So what if he feels he needs the leash to opperate at some time? Who will hold the leash? Perhaps someone close to him who has worked with Asha'man before.
vardene: 2006-12-14
Re: Semirhage's Capture Was Faked
AndyalThor
2006-12-12
reply
I'm going to start my response to this in a bit of a different way.
Imagine Moiraine in EotW. Imagine Siuan as Amyrlin. Imagine all the sisters who were tempted to bond Rand to control him. Imagine most any Red sister.
Now imagine all of these shown an e've, a definate way to control Rand. Now add in someone who is very competent at placing doubt from within an enemy camp. Given a way to control Rand, and increasing fear that he is going insane, how many Aes Sedai would be very tempted to use the e've. Given the Aes Sedais' freedom in interpreting their oath to Rand, if they were convinced that it truly was for his best, how many might be tempted to leash him.
Would this be damaging to Rand's cause? I think so, I think it would be quite damaging. Now add to that, how are the loyal Asha'man going to react to this news. We now have the support of both Aes Sedai and Asha'man (such as it is) weakened even further.
And what if Rand himself becomes convinced that he needs to be leashed. Hear me out. He is impaired. He can no longer trust his ability to channel. His latest lapse has cost him his hand, what will his next lapse loose him? Min perhaps? So what if he feels he needs the leash to opperate at some time? Who will hold the leash? Perhaps someone close to him who has worked with Asha'man before.
Andyalthor(Aat), i must agree with most of your deductions. There truly isn't enough evidence to back this theory though the theory itself is intriguing enough.
The succeess or failure of a plan usually the depends on the accuracy of the info/data that it is based on and the ability to put all those little details into place in the plan. Ignoring a pawn could cost ypou a game of chess! Semirhage is only an average field c.o.and that means her battle plans probably suffered from errors. I dont see how she could have planned for cadsuane disrupting her weave since cadsuane's terangreal are still a secret. If she'd tried killing mat in ebou dar as she suggested to Moridin, she'd probably be damane by now or dead.
However i dont see them killing semi.and i think that what fueled semi's calm and probably her current plan of action.She actually claimed to be semirhage-the best(or close) healer in the AOL. she was not severed then because she was obviously considered too great an asset to lose. How much more now. why tell them rand is insane? and in the same breath offer hope for him? knowing how important he is to the cause? Two, claiming to be the woman who frightened her jailers into freeing her could have its advantages.
Finally i dont think she planned for a battle. Why bring adam except if you hope to catch something? Rand's POV left a lot of mystery behind.e.g. was it only 1 fireball semi tossed? or were the other weaves disrupted? if a weave is disrupted at ten paces would other suldam and damane be affected as well?