and has the Saa and Moridin gets dizzy
by Phlaneri: 2005-10-20 | 4.7 out of 10 (20 votes)
Rand has the Saa. This theory is based on several observations of behavior in Rand going back to CoS.
In Crown of swords we see the famous scene between Rand/Samael/Ishmael-Moridin. Rand and Moridin cross their balefire paths and like crossing the streams in Ghost Busters it "would be bad".
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords
"Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. Everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed."
From this point on every time Rand tries to channel he feels dizzy and gets sick.
TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 22 - Gathering Clouds
"When he could sit upright again, he took the white linen handkerchief Bashere silently offered, and wiped his mouth. The Saldaean frowned with concern, as well he might. Rand's stomach wanted to find more to spew out. He thought his face must be pale. He drew a deep breath. Losing saidin that way could kill you. But he could still sense the Source; at least saidin had not burned him out. At least he could see properly; there was only one Davram Bashere. But the illness seemed a little worse each time he seized saidin."
We know from the latest book that this is because a bond/channel was formed between Moridin and Rand. When one of them channels it forms a momentary connection with the other.
"A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse. . . . He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me? If you don't know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were . . touching . . . the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair's breadth, in any direction. to touch him again. I think he saw my face, too. Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed peculiar. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now . . ? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him. When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either."
It is this doubling up for a second that causes the dizzyness and the sickness comes from what else passes along the channel.
Rand worries that this channel might allow for the forsaken to locate him or for information to be passed along. It is worse then that as what it is passing along is the Saa.
On Page 588 of KoD, Rand desperatly tries to grab Saidin as Semirhage attacks him. The World explodes in fire and then reads the following:
"His cheek was pressed against the damp ground, he realized. Black Flecks shimmered in his vision, and everything was faintly hazy, as if seen through water."
This I think is a classic example of RJ slipping in a bit of a clue. It sounds like he has just been knocked around a bit, but the black flecks are specific. It continues on page 590 with Nynaeve healing his hand and follows with:
"There's something wrong with your eyes," she said with a frown. "I'm afraid to try fixing that without studying on it. The smallest mistake could blind you. How well can you see? How many fingers am I holding up?"
"Two. I can see fine." he lied. The black flecks were gone, but everything still seemed seen through water..."
I feel that this is an example of the Saa seeping into Rand. This might be part of the DO's plan to get free. If his might is linked to Rand when Rand tries to use Saidin against him it might be enough to rip open his prison.
"A final note to this thought is the behavior of Moridin. We have not seen him from that point on without the power in him. It might be that this allows him to continually poison Rand everytime Rand embraces the source or at least allows him to gain insight on what Rand is doing. It is also possible that he too suffers from the dizzy spells that Rand is subject too and therefore is unwilling to release the true power for fear of being vulnerable even momentarilly. Please post if anyone can find any other evidence backing this up or can shoot it down.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-21
Phlaneri, well done. You have made me take a second look at this idea. Originally, I didn't buy into the idea that the Saa were what Rand was experiencing, but I think you may be right. However, I wonder how much of this comes from the crossing of the balefire, or if Rand is experiencing, because of it, Moridin's sickness. In other words, maybe one of the effects of channeling the True Power, over time, disables the individual from being able to channel the One Power, causing violent sickness. Also, do you believe at any time Rand will be able to channel the True Power through Moridin. And finally, I wonder what the implications are regarding Moridin's access to information regarding Mat and Perrin's locations and intentions. Can he see what Rand sees? Good luck, I am sure you will get some responses on this one.
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Davian93: 2005-10-21
Personally, I think that you're reading too much into the black flecks. It's the same thing that happens when you get hit in the head really hard as Rand did. Also, the damage that Nynaeve sees is a direct result of Semi's fireball.
****"Two. I can see fine." he lied. The black flecks were gone, but everything still seemed seen through water..."****
This would be indictative of scorched corneas from the fireball, the intenseness of the light and the "as if seen through water" part.
Obviously though, information is passing along the link, I'm sure Moridin finds himself musing on sheep shearing and rabbit hunting in the Two Rivers when he lets his mind wander.
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Cyberkil: 2005-10-21
I don't believe it is the Saa. Saa are black flecks, true, but they are always described as moving across the eyes or vision, also other people can see them. Nynaeve or Min surely would have noticed something like that and Min was there right after it happened before the flecks disappeared.
I think the black flecks and seeing through water effect are a result of watching an explosion a few feet away. They are part of the damage that Nynaeve senses.
There is definately a connection to Moridin and the channeling sickness is definately a result of crossing balefire with Moridin, but I do not believe the Saa are seeping through or that he is a cause of Rand's eye trouble.
4
Ozymandias: 2005-10-21
I think it's an interesting theory, even if it is all conjecture. And theory and logic are the only true determinants of truth... lol.
Anyways, I think that this is an interesting idea. That said, I think that a lot of your textual evidence is suspect. Black flecks can be caused by a fall. And why would falling cause him to channel the TP? Thats way to much coincidence, to just believe it was coincidence that Moridin is channeling at the exact moment of the fall.
5
lurk: 2005-10-21
Good theory Phlaneri, My first reaction to the flecks in rands eyes was that he had channeled the true power unknowingly. But the TP is strictly for the chosen and has to be allowed by the DO as is mentioned several times in the books.
But then I remembered that there was no mention whatsoever of Rand becoming ill when he cleansed Saidin. I checked it in the books and it is so.
This made me wonder why he doesn´t always feel the illness. The only reason I can think of is that while cleaning saidin he was close to the evil of Shadar Logoth. The same evil that is in his wound at his side. Interesting ideas anyone?
The evil of Shadar Logoth is anathema to the evil of the DO. The TP is something typical to the DO. Maybe the crossing of the beams of balefire made a connection between Rand and Moridin / the DO and everytime he channels the evil of Shadar Logoth in his wound starts fighting back and causes the nausea / illness.
6
amazinglarry: 2005-10-21
There are clear parallels between Rand and the Fisher King on the sha'rah board. The Fisher King is blind. Rand could be going blind as the result of getting hit with the fireball, or from a link to Moridin and his saa, or maybe a combination of both... Nynaeve notes that something is wrong with his eyes, and that it's complex. I think this is the beginning of Rand going blind.
7
dowellrl: 2005-10-21
I don't think that Rand is getting the saa, wouldn't other characters see them, the way they see them in Moridin's eyes? It was my opinion that the black flecks were the result of having fire thrown in his face, but it would be cool for Rand to have saa.
I never thought much about the fact that Moridin is always channeling now, you could be right about the "poisoning" Rand thing.
Forcing Rand to be exposed to the "true power" every time he embraces Saidin...
8
Aravan: 2005-10-21
Plausible theory but I feel that you may be reading a bit much into what was written. While the term 'black flecks' could certainly be applied to describing the Saa I would think that if Jordan were implying that's what Rand was experiencing he would have used a phrase like "black flecks flowed (or trickled) across his vision". Instead, the fact that he used "shimmered" seems to indicate that what Rand experienced was more a side effect of his vision being badly damaged.
The other primary argument against the flecks being Saa is that from the earlier books we know that it takes awhile when using the True Power for them to first appear and that once they have appeared they are constant and gradually grow worse and worse. Moridin has certainly been experiencing them for several books now and I don't seem to recall that they are ever not present. Certainly they are present when he is holding the Power. If the 'black flecks' Rand experienced were the Saa I would expect them to be a constant fixture and wouldn't expect them to simply go away after a few moments. Again, this seems to point to it being just a side-effect of having a fireball explode in front of his open eyes.
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Balinor: 2005-10-21
Good theory. You beat me to it. What bothered me when I first read that passage, was that Nynaeve had just healed Rand, and then she notices something strange with his eyes. Normally, I believe that Healing someone heals "everything" that can be healed by the One Power. So, if Rand's eyesight was damaged by the fireball, then Nynaeve's Healing should have repaired that. It obviously didn't. What else have we seen that can't be Healed in the normal fashion? Rand's two wounds in his side; both seem to be linked to evil (both the Dark One and Shadar Logoth). Why wouldn't this problem with his vision be linked to evil as well?
Some have pointed out that the Saa stream through Moridin's eyes. However, one of the POV's (I believe it is Demandred's) points out that the Saa accumulates slowly; if you only use it a little bit, then you only have a few black flecks. Demandred muses that Moridin must be using the TP exclusively in order to have picked up so much Saa. So, if there is a link between Moridin and Rand (and there's good evidence that this is the case), then perhaps the Saa is able to travel down this link to Rand, but only a little at a time. Rand hasn't been using the OP so much now as he was in earlier books.
One question I have though, concerns Moridin and the TP. If he experiences a similar sickness to Rand's when he tries to channel the TP, would this also affect his channeling the OP? I can't recall any instances since they "crossed the streams" in ACOS where it specifically states where Moridin is holding the TP versus the OP. Can anyone else confirm or deny this? If the OP is not compromised for Moridin, and the TP is, then he may have an advantage over Rand, since Moridin can channel both.
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: 2005-10-21
This is a fairly interesting theory, although I always assumed the 'illness' Rand experiences when grasping for saidin was an effect of the double wound on his side. I'm afraid I don't have the books with me here at uni but I seem to remember in one of the books (I cannot remember which, possibly CoS or LoC) where he Travels with elder Haman and Loial's mum to Shadar Logoth before this balefire incident with Moridin, at this point he only has the one evil wound but I'm sure that on at least one occasion when he channels in Shadar Logoth he notices a 'resonance' between the two different polarities of evil (the one in his wound and the one of Shadar Logoth).
So, bearing this in mind, after he is cut by the Shadar Logoth dagger carried by Mordeth/Fain he begins to notice a 'new' enhanced sickess and dizzyness that has him doubling over and wanting to empty his stomach whenever he tries to grasp the source. This I believe to be a result of the warring evils in the wound somehow. Also I seemed to notice that even before he got the second wound he found grasping the source painful as a result of just the one wound but the second one seemed to make the problem worse.
Now that is out of the way I still hold to my statement that the theory is intersting, particularly the bit about the crossing of balefire. I do agree that the crossing of streams between Rand and Moridin has somehow connected them as I cannot see any other event that could have. Funnily enough I never noticed this before, but it does seem rather obvious since KoD. However, I am not sure about the main point of the theory. I think maybe the black flecks are simply those of concussion. The loss of his hand during the encounter with Semirhage has been nicely predicted by some posts on this website by comparing characters to those in some Norse legends. The problem with Rands sight where everything is "as if seen throught water" as well as everything seeming too bright should have been an easy prediction from Moridins description of the game of stones I think this is in book 8 at the end of the prologue. The fisher has a hand clasped to his side and a bandage over his eyes! So these things are the same as in the last turning of the wheel at least.
As a final point about my disagreement with the point on the saa. The saa are obtained from extended use of the True Power, Rand has never touched the True Power, certainly not enough to get the saa and I feel that the idea of the saa somehow leaking through the 'connection' Rand has with Moridin pointless until we actually find out what it is that the saa actually do. Oh, and the reason we always see Moridin with the True Power in him is because (1) He has exclusive use of it now and (2) because it is supposedly very addictive.
11
deep thought: 2005-10-21
I just noticed another post by someone else who mentioned the similarity between the fisher and Rand. They seem to believe that Rand may be going blind. I do not believe this to be the case since: why bother with a bandage over the eyes? No I believe the problem Rand will have has already been given to us, namely that everything is too bright, his eyes have become sensitive to the light. Perhaps the bandage will be to dim the light so that he can see more normally.
With regards to this I believe that all these problems with Rand are not incidental (he is ta'veren remember), which leaves me wondering what use are (1) his wounds (2) his light sensitive eyes and (3) his losing of his hand going to have, if any.
Ideas anyone?
12
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-10-21
Not a theory I buy.
The true power is meant to be very very addictive, dangerously so. Rand shows no sign of longing to touch it, nor even of thinking he's touching anything except saidin.
The black specks perfectly and the scene perfectly describe someone who's been hit hard, causing a degree of concussion.
I doubt that the true power makes you nauseaus and makes your vision go blurry 'like he was looking through water'. Moridin in one of the scenes, suffers a sympathetic nausea everytime Rand does, and is pissed off that he does.
An odditty from that little event with Semirhage -From reading what Rand did, there's nothing to say he channelled at all.
The other oddity is that there is something wrong with his eyes. That 'could' be his link to Moridin, but who can tell.
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Tristin: 2005-10-21
good theory. i posted something similiar to this in a reply to another theory. rather than the saa being transfered it could be Rand's ability to at least partially touch the TP (reflexively and without knowing what he is doing). Since Moridin is getting sick as well...and since he is presumably only channeling the TP...it could be that it is the action of grasping for it...opening up one's mind to one or the other that is in fact making them sick. If the TP is like a little black glowing thing as opposed to the OP which is the little golden glowy thing in a male channelers head...it would seem that it could be touched just as easily if one for some reason had access to it. Think of how Rand accidentally channeled all the time in the eye of the world...when he needed something but didn't know how to do it. It seems possible to me that the sickness could be the same as channelers sickness...but with no one to train him about using the TP when he does touch it...if only briefly and without doing anything with it...his ability to "grasp" after OP or TP is affected. This would explain why Moridin is also sick when he is "grasping" after the TP as opposed to the OP. It's opening and closing oneself off to the power...that is where the sickness occurrs....like a broken sphincter or valve or something.
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Anubis: 2005-10-22
Heres my problem... and im rapidly becoming a Saa freak...
THE SAA DONT INTERFERE WITH VISION.
When Ishamael gets a hailstorm of saa he can still see just fine. It does not affect his sight. He is just aware of them mentally. Sure, it doesnt make sense, and its a warping of reality, but since when has that ever stopped the Dark One?
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Tristin: 2005-10-22
perhaps him having the saa or touching the TP in some way even if it is just through a connection with Moridin....is fighting with the wound in his side...who knows....I think the saa are there whether or not they are the only reason his eyes are all screwed up is another question
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therobotbadger: 2005-10-22
**What bothered me when I first read that passage, was that Nynaeve had just healed Rand, and then she notices something strange with his eyes. Normally, I believe that Healing someone heals "everything" that can be healed by the One Power. So, if Rand's eyesight was damaged by the fireball, then Nynaeve's Healing should have repaired that.**
For the past several books, Nynaeve has been using what other Aes Sedai characters have been calling the "new Healing." It is more akin to the form of Healing used in the AoL, in which different weaves are used to Heal different things. In this Healing, all the strength comes from the Healer, not the Healed, which is a contrast with the more conventional form of Healing we've seen so far. Also, more importantly, the weave targets a specific ailment directy, and does not Heal anything else.
The fact that Nynaeve didn't Heal Rand's eyes with everything else doesn't indicate something unHealable about them. She Healed his hand (or stub, rather), and wanted to wait on Healing his eyes. Good old Rand, however, refused to let on that anything was wrong.
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Heron: 2005-10-22
We don't know what the saa or touching the true power do. We have very big hints that its a really bad thing. And that even before the DO limited its use to Moridin the other forsaken would'nt touch it with a barge pole. So we know its something the Forsaken don't want. Maybe because the LB is coming so soon it won't effect Moridin enough to hamper him so he can fight Rand with the TP and if he wins then the DO can grant him erternal life which is worth channeling the TP for a bit.
18
mako0424: 2005-10-23
i dont agree with the theory about Rand getting the Saa, but i do totally with Rand and Moridin both having the channeling sickness, which explains why Moridin began using True Power all the time, as well as holding the power constantly, i also think there is a much deeper connection than just channeling. i think for either Rand or moridin to die the other must as well.
Such as the movie "dragonheart" where the bad guy can only be killed by killing the dragon, so will it be with Moridin, Rand must die, to defeat the Dark One, and Alivia will help with this, but then a reverse balefire would bring Rand back, which would fulfil the you must die to live prophecy as well as win TG, but this wont bring Moridin back because the timelines are unrelated.
19
Callandor: 2005-10-23
**From this point on every time Rand tries to channel he feels dizzy and gets sick.**
He also gets the sickness when he doesn't channel or try to channel, though.
**We know from the latest book that this is because a bond/channel was formed between Moridin and Rand. When one of them channels it forms a momentary connection with the other.**
False. In fact, you're taking the quote out of context in order to say this I would say:
**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon
Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse....**
We know Rand at this time is not channeling or holding saidin -- he only does that right before the Trollocs attack.
It could be the dizziness caused by this connection (but channeling isn't linked to it, at least not all the time) -- but it also has a very good chance of the dizziness being from Rand's warring wounds since he recieved his second one from Fain, and was unconscious until he fought Sammael.
**Rand worries that this channel might allow for the forsaken to locate him or for information to be passed along. It is worse then that as what it is passing along is the Saa.**
Hardly -- Rand hit his head when he fell from his horse. Look at any time characters get hit in the head. This is when Mat fell off the bridge in The Dragon Reborn:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 30 - The First Toss
For a stretched-out moment he seemed to have no weight. Air whistled past his ears and ruffled his hair. He thought he heard the other man scream, or start to. The impact knocked all the air out of his lungs and made silver-black flecks dance across his blurring vision.**
Black, flecks, and blurring all mentioned.
Siuan simply being slapped Elaida:
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 47 - The Truth of a Viewing
Elaida waited with chill calm until she was done. Then her full-armed slap exploded across Siuan's face; she staggered, silver-black flecks dancing in her vision. "You are finished," Elaida said. "Did you think I-we- would allow you to destroy the Tower? Bring her!" Siuan stumbled as two of the Reds pushed her forward. Barely keeping her feet, she glared at them, but went as they directed. Who did she need to get word to? Whatever charges had been brought, she could counter them, given time. Even charges involving Rand; they could not fasten more than rumors to her, and she had played the Great Game too long to be beaten by rumors. Unless they had Min; Min could clothe rumors in truth. She ground her teeth. Burn my soul, I'll use this lot for fish bait!**
Rand's battle with Lanfear:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices
Agony in his chest, as if his heart was about to explode, in his head, white-hot nails driving into his brain, pain so strong that inside the Void he wanted to scream. Death was there, and he knew it. Frantically-even in the Void, frantic; emptiness shimmered, dwindled-he wove Spirit and Fire and Earth, flailing it wildly. His heart was no longer beating. Fingers of dark pain crushing the Void. Gray veil falling over his eyes. He felt his weave slice raggedly through hers. The burn of breath in empty lungs, lurch of heart beginning to pump again. He could see again, silver and black flecks floated between him and a stone-faced Lanfear still catching her balance from the rebound of her flows. The pain was there in head and chest like wounds, but the Void firmed, and bodily pain was remote.**
Rand getting hit in the head by a practice sword in Lord of Chaos:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 1 - Lion on the Hill
For a moment Rand wavered, his vision a blur of black flecks. Shaking his head in an effort to clear his eyes, he used the practice sword to push himself to his feet. Panting hard, the shaven-headed man watched him cautiously.**
It could be the saa, but it's under incredibly strange situations, we have better explanations than the saa in this instance, and we have examples that fit perfectly with those explanations.
And, as Anubis said, the saa don't intefere with vision.
**I feel that this is an example of the Saa seeping into Rand. This might be part of the DO's plan to get free. If his might is linked to Rand when Rand tries to use Saidin against him it might be enough to rip open his prison.**
Err... ok. That makes no sense to me.
In any case, Ishamael/Moridin seemed just as surprised about what happened as Rand was.
**We have not seen him from that point on without the power in him.**
Yes we have. In The Path of Daggers when he's playing Sha'rah he doesn't use the True Power until the end of his section -- also when he's watching Elayne and Aviendha leave he doesn't use it until the end of his section. He's not using it at all times. Just when he wants to.
**It is also possible that he too suffers from the dizzy spells that Rand is subject too and therefore is unwilling to release the true power for fear of being vulnerable even momentarilly.**
Rand comments on him suffering from the dizziness.
** In other words, maybe one of the effects of channeling the True Power, over time, disables the individual from being able to channel the One Power, causing violent sickness.**
I doubt it disables them from using it. Demandred comments that he's used it more than once (not a whole lot of course), yet he clearly uses saidin. Ishamael/Moridin is the Nae'blis so why not use his gift solely?
**But the TP is strictly for the chosen and has to be allowed by the DO as is mentioned several times in the books.**
The Dark One has to let you use it, and you need the ability to use it (black cords).
**What bothered me when I first read that passage, was that Nynaeve had just healed Rand, and then she notices something strange with his eyes. Normally, I believe that Healing someone heals "everything" that can be healed by the One Power. So, if Rand's eyesight was damaged by the fireball, then Nynaeve's Healing should have repaired that. It obviously didn't.**
Nynaeve's (and Flinn's) version of Healing does not Heal everything in one go -- it's specific to exactly what you want to Heal. She obviously used that, since his hand was the most pressing matter.
**Also I seemed to notice that even before he got the second wound he found grasping the source painful as a result of just the one wound but the second one seemed to make the problem worse.**
You'd have to quote that; I don't recall anything like that before.
**If the TP is like a little black glowing thing as opposed to the OP which is the little golden glowy thing in a male channelers head...it would seem that it could be touched just as easily if one for some reason had access to it.**
Problem is that Rand shouldn't. He doesn't have black cords, and isn't asking the Dark One.
**We don't know what the saa or touching the true power do.**
The saa are the first step toward becoming "old fire eyes" according to RJ (he said it very simply in the Budapest interviews). Ishamael clearly had those; Moridin being his incarnation you can see the obvious reasons why he's so uncaring about having the saa.
From the fire eyes -- is death. Once you get those, it's only a certain amount of time before you will die. Unless you know you can be reborn by the Dark One....
**but then a reverse balefire would bring Rand back, which would fulfil the you must die to live prophecy as well as win TG,**
A reverse balefire weave? A reversed weave is one that is made unknown until it works (like Cyndane's fireball to Alivia). So, do you mean something else?
20
silverwolf: 2005-10-23
Rand and Moridin are definitely connected, but I don't think Rand has the saa--the "black flecks" reference seems to be just a figure of speech since the saa don't interfere with vision and Rand mentions nothing of the flecks moving in straight lines across his vision. Rand drawing on the TP might or might not be plausible--I think he'd realize what he was doing. We have no indication that drawing on the TP should make drawing on the OP more difficult, and unless someone can provide at least convincing circumstantial evidence of this I'm just going to dismiss it out of hand as baseless speculation. As to Moridin "poisoning" Rand with the TP--no. It makes more sense that Moridin is experiencing the same difficulties embracing the source--and probably the TP--as Rand has, and has dealt with it by simply holding the TP all the time (as the books seem to indicate by what we have seen of him).
21
Anubis: 2005-10-24
**From the fire eyes -- is death. Once you get those, it's only a certain amount of time before you will die. Unless you know you can be reborn by the Dark One....**
Thats misleading Callandor. RJ said you die unless the DO grants you a second boon. The nature of that second boon is pure speculation, but I doubt it is reincarnation seeing as Ishy had the fire eyes for quite some time.
22
near3decades: 2005-10-24
Nice work, Phlaneri, but I disagree on the Saa.
However, I have a different angle that is tangent to yours:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but Min had a viewing that Rand and *someone* else would become one. One of them dies, and she is not sure which one is the survivor. I think it has been assumed for quite some time that Lews Therin was the *other*...but maybe we've been led on a merry chase?
Comments?
23
Callandor: 2005-10-24
**Thats misleading Callandor. RJ said you die unless the DO grants you a second boon. The nature of that second boon is pure speculation, but I doubt it is reincarnation seeing as Ishy had the fire eyes for quite some time.**
Uh, why?
The Forsaken are not immortal, and the Dark One will not make them immortal until he is freed. Their only boon is to be transmigrated by him. Just as Ishamael was, into Moridin.
Where's the difficulty here? You're on your way to death -- unless the Dark One grants you more life for being a good servant of his. You can be one of the Forsaken, use the True Power until you die from it, but if you haven't done any good for the Dark One that he considers good he will not bring you back (now it's questionable though, since there are so few, but for a Forsaken to be that selfish I doubt would be very good).
**I think it has been assumed for quite some time that Lews Therin was the *other*...but maybe we've been led on a merry chase?**
More than likely we were.
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Tristin: 2005-10-25
Callandor makes a good point about the black cords. If Rand is going to be able to touch the TP he needs the cord to do it. I'm sure he's been in TAR since he crossed balefire streams with moridin and so we can be pretty sure he didn't notice one hanging out of his butt. The only way he COULD be touching the tp through Moridin is if the connection is enough to where he doesn't need the DO permission, or the cords or whatever, precisely because he is doing it THROUGH Moridin in some way...possibly only in trickles. I'll admit that while this seems extremely unlikely...it also looks to me like there is going to have to be some kind of shift where the two become one, or they switch bodies or meld or something. I mean if they are "close" enough to do that...close enough to feel it when the other person is sick from channeling or when the other person just channels in general...then they are unbelievably close...to the point that we shouldn't be surprised if Rand craps his pants when Moridin has beans....
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workmad3: 2005-10-25
As has been pointed out many times, moridins and rands balefire clossed paths, creating a link. What is the nature of this link? As balefire erases what it touches from the pattern, then wouldnt balefire touching balefire cause a paradox, as each tries to erase the other from the pattern? The dizziness and sickness could just be rand's body almost rejecting the OP because of a loop caused by balefire trying to erase balefire. This is then transmitted to moridin as his balefire was the other one affected. As moridin no longer uses the OP we do not know if the dizziness is transmitted the other way as well, but to me it would seem likely.
I dont think that rand is being affected by the saa, as this is directly linked to TP use etc and all the other arguments already provided against this.
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Callandor: 2005-10-25
**As balefire erases what it touches from the pattern, then wouldnt balefire touching balefire cause a paradox, as each tries to erase the other from the pattern?**
Maybe, but they weren't targeting each other. They were targeting Mashadar.
**The dizziness and sickness could just be rand's body almost rejecting the OP because of a loop caused by balefire trying to erase balefire.**
Or, it could be something unrelated to the balefire streams (like his wounds), and is effecting Rand and Moridin simply because they are linked in some fashion now.
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JollyW89: 2005-10-25
Balinor
There are two ways of healing. The first is the old way where the weave would heal anything it could and left the person hungry, and made them feel as if they were dipped in water. Nynveane and one of the Asha'man crfeated a new weave that can be used to heal certian wounds and is much more effective than the old way. Nynveane would not only use her way because she created it but because she is proficient in it.
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Traveller: 2005-10-27
I believe it is the Saa- this theory has convinced me because before I thought it was just a kind of aftrer-image from the fire ball, but it fits with Rand crossing balefire with Moridin, then having that connection that Rand thinks about in your quote. It makes sense.
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Anubis: 2005-10-27
**The Forsaken are not immortal, and the Dark One will not make them immortal until he is freed. Their only boon is to be transmigrated by him. Just as Ishamael was, into Moridin.**
1. Ishamael was Ishamael for a really long channeling the TP and didnt get a new body till Rand killed him.
2. RJ said a second boon, he didnt say transmitigration. I think theres a reason for that. All forsaken seem to get transmitigrated, the second boon in my mind must be something else.
3. Its stupid. I think if shai tan doesnt want his power to kill you it wont. Why would his power intrinsicly kill his servants off? And I highly doubt he would make his most favorite servant cycle bodies every couple years...
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Lilbaz: 2005-10-27
I don't think that the balefire crossing and Rand and Moridin becomming one is part of the DO's plan at all. I think that it was a total accident. Also due to the nature of Balefire (can destroy the pattern) this may change all of the prophesies, and lead to an unexpected ending.
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Callandor: 2005-10-28
**1. Ishamael was Ishamael for a really long channeling the TP and didnt get a new body till Rand killed him.**
Because Ishamael didn't DIE before then.
**2. RJ said a second boon, he didnt say transmitigration. I think theres a reason for that. All forsaken seem to get transmitigrated, the second boon in my mind must be something else.**
What other gift to the Forsaken has the Dark One given?
Anubis, listen to the interview. He's talking about the Dark One granting Forsaken the ability to use the True Power, and if you get to a certain point you're on your way to death. If you don't have the assurance to get this "boon", you will die. In other words, if the Dark One doesn't favor you, you're screwed.
And, he talks about the Forsaken fear Moridin using it so freely, because of this implication of him knowing he has the Dark One's assurance.
Now, what is the only thing we've seen the Dark One to to eliminate the danger of death? Transmigration.
**I think if shai tan doesnt want his power to kill you it wont.**
Exactly! It won't -- because he will bring them back.
**Why would his power intrinsicly kill his servants off?**
Because it's addictive and dangerous. It's the True Power's nature. Otherwise, you might as well say it's stupid for saidin to be a constant battle, or for saidar to be stronger than you no matter how hard to try to force it.
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JakOShadows: 2005-11-01
Phlaneri:
It's a nice theory, but I don't think the saa can be transferred. Rather, I think the connection is due to something else. The black flecks were mostly from hitting his and head. As to the connection, I would think it would be something tied to the mind, because he see Moridin just as he sees Mat and Perrin. And as to the blindness bit, I think it is an interesting idea. And entirely possible considering the fact that after he stood up he said the sun looked ten times brighter. Maybe an effect of the fireball burning his retinas. But I don't see any of this being as important in one connection. It is just a bunch of coincidences or unconnected events. Most likely, the sickness is from the the wound in his side, the evil of Shadar Logoth fighting the DO's evil. Either that, or it could be the effect of the taint. RJ did say that the madness could not be reversed. And as for why the madness didn't affect him at the cleansing is because initially Nynaeve was trying to take saidin, and he took control of the link after that. So he actually wasn't controlling the one power.
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Tristin: 2005-11-02
The sickness as caused by the two wounds fighting eachother is interesting, but I'm not sure why it would only be affecting him when he channeled. It seems like if the sickness was caused by the wounds fighting eachother it would be an all the time kind of sickness and not necessarily tied to the power...the argument for the sickness from the wounds was a good argument but after the cleansing it seems like the taint he was channeling wouldn't be resonating or reacting against the wounds any longer and the sickness should have ended. As the sickness has continued only when grasping or releasing the source it stands to reason that it isn't the wounds that are giving him the channeling sickness...unless you were to argue that the sickness is from channeling the taint for such an extended period of time...but even that doesn't seem particularly tied to the wounds.
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truth42: 2005-11-02
I completely agree, with this. Besides the parallel's between Rand and the Fisher King Min had that vision of a beggar Rand. So at some point Rand acts like a beggar, and I believe that the reason for this is he becomes blind. I also think there was a viewing of this by Min.
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silverwolf: 2005-11-02
JakOShadows: Nynaeve initiated the link, but passed control to Rand. He controlled it. He controlled the flows of both saidin and saidar. Even if he hadn't, simply acting as a conduit for the One Power has similar effects to channeling--look at Elayne after the circle used the Bowl of the Winds in TPoD. Rand channeled massive amounts of saidin at the cleansing and handled massive amounts of the taint; there is no way around this.
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Callandor: 2005-11-03
**The sickness as caused by the two wounds fighting eachother is interesting, but I'm not sure why it would only be affecting him when he channeled.**
But it doesn't happen all the time when Rand channels. We saw in Knife of Dreams that Rand sees Moridin's face and feels sick when he is not holding saidin. We've also seen this in Winter's Heart:
TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: Prologue
"You should have picked smaller books, " he told her, pulling on riding gloves to hide the Dragons. "Or lighter." He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished. Lews Therin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?
"Not this time." He was ready for what happened when he channeled; he could control it to some extent. Usually. Most of the time. This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly. He settled the leather scrip's strap over his free shoulder. The men in the stableyard were still busy. Building. "Min--."
Rand's gotten dizzy without holding saidin before, however, it might be that it's always been the link between him and Moridin. We'd have to get a better comprehensive list of incidents.
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Tristin: 2005-11-04
your right, it seems like these incidents when not holding saidin are the link between him and moridin, we would need an example of the dizziness without channeling before the balefire incident to be sure and to the best of my knowledge there isn't one.
It doesn't seem like the wounds would account for why Rand gets sick from link with Moridin unless it has something to do with the wounds fighting the link to excess evil or something.
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JakOShadows: 2005-11-04
So if the link between him and Moridin is what is causing it, why would it make him dizzy? Because I don't think the true power effects/saa etc. could be transferred? It just seems like a link between threads. Maybe it could be a sudden disorientation, or a sense of being in two places on the pattern, but I don't think it would be based of Moridin's use of the true power.
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JakOShadows: 2005-11-04
Silverwolf:
I didn't mean he didn't touch the taint, I meant that he wouldn't have felt the sickness due to the taint. He would have time gain control and he wouldn't be taking it in so quickly.
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Kasim: 2008-09-16
i dont know if anyone has said this, got bored reading all of the posts... ; ) but isnt it more likely that he feels dizzy etc... when he opens himself to the one power because of when his and moridins balefire connected at shadar logoth? Maybe he only gets it when he opens himself to the one power because he needs to be holding the op to open himself to the connection that he made with ishy. any way how could logain see rands weaves if rand was using the tp.
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terez: 2008-09-22
Kasim, we're discussing this on a more recent theory (on the main theory page) - yes, the dizziness is caused by the link between Rand and Moridin, which was almost surely caused by the balefire incident.
