layer Ordered the Trolloc Attack
by Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-02 | 3.85 out of 10 (20 votes)
This theory revolves around the Trolloc attack on Rand and co. in Knife of Dreams, and around one main point -
SLAYER WAS THE CAUSE OF THE TROLLOC ATTACK.
To some, this theory may seem a bit out there, and it is, but I want to see what you think.
Before I go into the development of my theory, I will briefly describe Slayer's origin. Slayer is a merge of two people, Isam and Luc, much like Fain and Mordeth.
EotW, Chapter 47 - More Tales of the Wheel
"Lain died in the Blasted Lands with most of those who followed him, men Malkier could ill afford to lose, and Breyan blamed the King, saying that Shayol Ghul itself would have fallen if al'Akir had led the rest of the Malkieri north with her husband. For revenge, she plotted with Cowin Gemallan, called Cowin Fairheart, to seize the throne for her son, ISAM. Now Fairheart was a hero almost as well loved as al'Akir himself, and one of the Great Lords, but when the Great Lords had cast the rods for king, only two separated him from Akir, and he never forgot that two men laying a different color on the Crowning Stone would have set him on the throne instead. Between them, Cowin and Breyan moved soldiers back from the Blight to seize the Seven Towers, stripping the Borderforts to bare garrisons."
From this quote we see that Isam was the son of the woman who helped bring about Malkier's fall.
EotW, Chapter 47 - More Tales of the Wheel
"Breyan fled with her infant son Isam, and was run down by Trollocs as she rode south with him. No one knows their fate of a certainty, but it can be guessed. I can find pity only for the boy."
tGH, Chapter 7 - Blood Calls Blood
"Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom. Isam waited in the high passes. The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill. One did live, and one did die, but both are. The Time of Change has come. Blood feeds blood. Blood calls blood. Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be."
To summarize the two preceding quotes, Trollocs took the fleeing Breyan and Isam. We do not know what happens next, but Isam comes out a Darkfriend, maybe he already was so he was spared. In the last quote, we learn that Luc came and hunted Isam, that one of them died, but both of them are - living in the same body.
That's the summary of Slayer's origin. Now onto the theory.
BUILD UP
KoD, Chapter 3 - At the Gardens
"Moridin's jaw tightened. "I don't know," he said at last, reluctantly. He never liked saying that. "But they sent a hundred Myrddraal and thousands of Trollocs ino the Ways."
In this chapter, we learn that someone posed as Sammael and sent a lot of Shadowspawn into the Ways.
KoD, Chapter 20 - Vows
"Trollocs," he breathed. That was what it was, thousands of Trollocs in black, spiked mail spilling out of the trees at a run with scythe-curved swords raised, shaking their spiked spears, some carrying torches. Trollocs as far as he could see to left and right. Not thousands. Tens of thousands."
And in this quote, we find where all those Trollocs were sent. Now to how and why I think Slayer sent them.
HOW DID SLAYER POSE AS SAMMAEL?
I have 2 ways that I came up with that could work for how Slayer posed as Sammael.
The first way I came up with was that using his skill in Tel'aran'rhiod, Slayer was able to "pull" one or more (most likely more) Myrddraal or Trollocs into Tel'aran'rhiod and gave them their orders there. Trollocs and Myrddraal DO sleep and when that happened, he pulled them into the Dream World.
tDR, Chapter 36 - Daughter of the Night
"Great Lord," one of the men muttered, "where is this place?" He looked around once, flinching at his image cast back at him many thousandfold, and held his eyes forward after that. The others huddled around im seemed even more afraid. "I was asleep in Tar Valon, Great Lord. I am asleep in Tar Valon! Where is this place? Have I gone mad?
In this quote we see that this person went to sleep and was pulled into Tel'aran'rhiod.
It would then be easy for him to change his appearance to that of Sammael, as I'm sure that working for the Chosen would have given him a glimpse of Sammael.
WH, Chapter 22 - Out of Thin Air
"Here, he could be who he wanted to be. He chuckled at the thought."
(Slayer)
With the Trollocs and Myrddraal thinking that he was a Chosen, they would obey him.
The other way that I came up with was based on a series of quotes that I found.
tSR, Chapter 56 - Goldeneyes
"Goldeneyes! Lord Perrin! Goldeneyes!" From the thick branch of a leafy oak on the edge of the Westwood, Ordeith stared at Emond's Field, a mile to the south. It was impossible. Scourge them. Flay them. Everything had been going according to plan. Even Isam had played into his hands. Why did the fool stop bringing Trollocs? He should have brought in enough to turn the Two Rivers black with them! Spittle dripped from his lips, but he did not notice, any more than he realized that his hand was fumbling at his belt. Harry them till their hearts burst! Harrow them into the ground screaming! All planned to pull Rand al'Thor to him, and it came to this! The Two Rivers had not even been scratched. A few farms burned did not count, nor a few farmers butchered alive for Trolloc cookpots. I want the Two Rivers to burn, burn so the fire lives in men's memories for a thousand years!
"ISAM!" The guttural roar rose like thunder, and Trollocs appeared, each half again as tall as a man and twice as wide, trotting into the fields to halt beyond bowshot, a hulking, black-mailed mass, deep and stretching the length of the village. Thousands of them packed together, huge faces distorted by beaks and snouts, heads with horns or feathered crests, spikes at elbows and shoulders, scythe-curved swords and spiked axes, hooked spears and barbed tridents, a seemingly endless sea of cruel weapons. Behind them, Myrddraal galloped up and down on midnight horses, raven-black cloaks hanging undisturbed as they whirled their mounts.
tSR, Chapter 56 - Goldeneyes
"He let himself drop to the ground, and scrambled onto his horse before looking at his companions. His hounds. The thirty or so Whitecloaks remaining no longer wore their white cloaks, of course. Rust spotted their dull plate-and-mail, and Bornhald would never have recognized those sullen, suspicious faces, dirty and unshaven. The humans watched Ordeith, distrustful yet afraid, not even glancing at the Myrddraal in their midst, its slug-pale, eyeless face as bleakly wooden as theirs. The Halfman feared Isam would find it; Isam had not at all been pleased when that raid on Taren Ferry let so many escape to carry away word of what was happening in the Two Rivers. Ordeith giggled at the thought of Isam discomforted. The man was a problem for another time, if he still lived."
Using these quotes I could judge that Slayer, having ordered many Trollocs through the Ways already and being able to scare Myrddraal, had ordered them to go through the Ways to where Rand was with strict orders to give the name Sammael to anyone who asked, for his own purposes.
I myself prefer the first way.
HOW DID SLAYER KNOW WHERE RAND WAS?
You could question that Slayer couldn't have know where Rand was as he had been jumping around a lot, but remember, we don't know the full extent of his powers.
WH, Chapter 13 - Wonderful News
"Mesaana is absent again?" Moridin said instead of answering. "A pity. She should hear what I have to say." Plucking the rat from his shoulder by its tail, he watched the animal wave its legs futilely. Nothing except the rat seemed to exist for him. "Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important," he murmured. "This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain. A word whispered in the wrong ear, or not spoken to the right. A butterfly stirs its wings on a branch, and on the other side of the world a mountain collapses." Suddenly the rat twisted, trying to sink its teeth into his wrist. Casually, he flung the creature away. In midair, there was a burst of flame, something hotter than flame, and the rat was gone. Moridin smiled."
We can see that Fain, the rebelled Hound of the Shadow, is being hunted by Slayer. Perhaps after Fain rebelled, Slayer was transformed by the Dark One to the new Hound of the Shadow, sort of like a version 2, with better and badder abilities - to work as an assassin and to hunt down Fain.
tGH, Chapter 3 - Friends and Enemies
"Fain stood at Egwene's approach, not shielding his eyes or even blinking at the light. He smiled at her, a smile that touched only his lips, then raised his eyes above her head. Looking straight at Rand, hidden in the blackness behind the light, he pointed a long finger at him. "I feel you there, hiding, Rand al'Thor," he said, almost crooning. "You can't hide, not from me, and not from them. You thought it was over, did you not? But the battle's never done, al'Thor. They are coming for me, and they're coming for you, and the war goes on. Whether you live or die, it's never over for you. Never." Suddenly he began to chant."
Taking that quote into account, and believing that Slayer is a new Hound of the Dark, its only logical to believe that Slayer has a link to Rand, and maybe Perrin and Mat as well.
This would explain how Slayer would find Rand.
MOTIVES
I can already see people saying how the theory can't be true because why would Slayer hide something like that from Moridin or the other Chosen.
Well, he could be starting to act independently, or he could be acting on the Dark One's secret orders, but I think that to come to a conclusion, you need to see these two points.
1. Moridin/Ishamael gets ANGRY
CoS, Prologue - Lightnings
"She had risen because Ishamael killed her predecessor in his wrath at discovering what Jarna Malari had begun, yet it had not ended for another two years, after the death of another Amyrlin. She often wondered whether Elaida had had any hand in the death of that one, Sierin Vayu; certainly the Black Ajah had not."
-(Alviarin)
Slayer would probably be feeling a bit anxious with Moridin's temper for failing to kill Perrin in the Two Rivers, failing to kill Fain, and failing to kill Rand. He's probably getting quite worried, especially since, if he really was the second Hound of the Dark, he knows that he is not indispensable and that the Dark One could replace him if he was incompetent.
2. Akin to Fain
Slayer, if he was a second Hound of the Dark, was ANYTHING at all like Padan Fain, who spends all of his time obsessing on Rand, he would want Rand dead as well.
I know for Fain it just eats away at him and that he really wants to kill Rand, so why couldn't Slayer be the same. Although he isn't so obsessed about killing Rand himself because he knows he's got to kill him soon, and needs to obey orders.
And why Sammael? Maybe because Slayer thought that would keep Moridin's mind off of him for the moment with puzzling out if Sammael is back or not. That would give him more time to finish his jobs.
COUNTERPOINTS
Other main characters that people have thought sent the attack were Padan Fain and Demandred.
I don't think it would be Padan Fain as he has been stewing so long, his obssession has grown beyond control - he's gotta kill Rand himself. Especially after the end of Winter's Heart -
WH, Chapter 33 - Blue Carp Street
"I told you he's mine!" the bony man screamed, dancing away from Rand's cut. With his face contorted in fury, his big nose and ears that stuck out made him seem something contrived to frighten children, but his eyes held murder. Teeth bared in a snarl, he looked like a weasel wild with killing fury. A rabid weasel, ready to savage even a leopard. With that dagger, he could kill any number of leopards. "mine!" Padan Fain shrieked, leaping back again as Lan rushed into the room. "Kill the ugly one!"
And I also doubt that another Forsaken would pose as Sammael in case something leaked out to Moridin -he seems to know a lot of things going on. As well, I don't know how they would know how Rand was there.
All in all, I believe that Slayer ordered that Trolloc attack, so go ahead and give your opinions on my thoughts.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-12-13
I believe, as you suggest, that Slayer is capable of commanding Trolloc and Myrrdraal. He has proved that he can do so, with the episode at the Two Rivers that you quoted. However, he has proved he can do so, without pretending he is a dead Forsaken. I don't think your points as to why Slayer would masquerade as Sammael are strong enough. If it wasn't T'A'R, we have no indication that Slayer could have pretended to be Sammael. Your theory begins to have very specific needs, without much support. I like the idea, but we have not seen Slayer go rogue, as far as I know up to this point in the books. I think it is possible that the Dark One has given Slayer independent missions, and I can imagine that these missions might differ or be opposite to the commands Moridin gives the others. However, I am not convinced that it could have been Slayer.
2
Tamyrlin: 2005-12-13
By the way, I did forget to mention that I thought you did an excellent job in presenting your theory. It is theories like yours that helps to make a good name for Theoryland. I appreciate the work you put into presenting your idea. As a note, if you are thinking about submitting a theory, do it like this.
3
Khazhul: 2005-12-14
I like this theory and while I'm not 100% convinced of it, I have to agree he is a strong possibility.
One thing I would like to add though is that I don't think Slayer has Fain's ability to track Rand, otherwise he would not have mistakenly killed that couple in Far Madding thinking it was Rand and Min. Everything else though, is very convincing.
4
Paddy: 2005-12-14
I like your idea that Slayer is a MK2 version of Fain. It could be that this time round the DO had refined the process so he didn't create the kind of madness found in Fain.
5
JakOShadows: 2005-12-14
It's a good theory, but you also have to look at how Slayer has been used. Fain wasn't used as an assassin, but rather a hound that followed Rand. Where as Slayer did the work of an assassin more. I don't see why there would be a purpose in making him both if they already had Fain, or knew of how Fain turned out. But there is a strong probability of it happening. And it could be one of the forsaken ordered him to do that in that specific method, to displace the blame from them in some twisted way. I don't see why anyone would pose as a deadman, unless they didn't know he was dead anyway.
6
Kuma: 2005-12-14
I agree that this has some possibilities, but, as has already been pointed out:
1) How did Slayer know where Rand is?
2) Why whould Slayer pose as Sammael?
For the first, I don't buy that Slayer is a new hound, a la Fain, and for the second, I can't come up with a good enough reason for Slayer to independently pose as Sammael without speculating on secret orders from the Dark One.
Interesting, though, to think about the full range of possibilities for someone with Slayer's abilities.
7
Anubis: 2005-12-15
**I like the idea, but we have not seen Slayer go rogue, as far as I know up to this point in the books.**
However, we do know that he recieved orders from someone he believed to be a forsaken to kill Rand. Under this light he becomes a possibility, as well as the individual who gave the orders.
8
terez: 2005-12-15
Slayer might possibly have a hold on Alanna. In "Hunter of Trollocs," Faile passes on a message to Perrin from Loial, saying Alanna disappeared twice, once with Ihvon being surprised she was gone. Then Gaul brings news that thirty Trollocs were sighted in the Waterwood. Luc was there when Gaul gave his report, and declines to assist. Perrin goes to fight them, and it turns out to be over a hundred Trollocs, coming from the wrong direction at the wrong time. Perrin almost gets hacked by a Fade, and who saves his life? Ihvon, in the nick of time. Something weird was going on there.
None of this is to say I believe it was Slayer; just info to add to the pile.
9
aeruphus: 2005-12-16
i really like this theory, but i dont agree with the idea of slayer pulling the myrdraal and trollocs into the world of dreams because, i dont remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of only myrdraal dont dream. trollocs dream but the myrdraal dont. other than that i really like this one.
10
JakOShadows: 2005-12-16
terez:
That's an interesting connection, but how would he have a hold on her. His mode of operation is to kill AS when they are weak or captured. So I don't see how he could have done it. And the warder could have come because the he suspected a plot or one of the AS did, and it would explain him being there easier. That, or one of the AS even ordered Perrin to be sent for or tailed even. There doesn't have to be a plot for it to work.
11
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-12-16
*** For the first, I don't buy that Slayer is a new hound, a la Fain, and for the second, I can't come up with a good enough reason for Slayer to independently pose as Sammael without speculating on secret orders from the Dark One. ***
A thought I just had is that the DO wants to make sure that is Forsaken get the job done and aren't scheming or think that they are getting too powerful (Lanfear...). So he's been giving Slayer orders and told him to pose as Sammael and launch an attack at Rand to put the Forsaken off balance. Working together, the Forsaken could be dangerous to the DO, but off balance they will be distrustful of each other. Also, it will encourage the best to survive as the DO has encouraged previously.
12
JakOShadows: 2005-12-20
But as Moridin said himself, he needs all the trollocs he can get for TG. I mean he can do same thing in a lot less wasteful way by taking them to the DO and literally putting the fear of God into them. Either that, or I'm sure he could use some of his other fun ideas. Unless he doesn't need those thousand trollocs and hundred myrddael and was lying, but I think he would much rather keep them intact for TG. It's getting awfully close to the showtime to be wasting his military forces in schemes.
13
terez: 2005-12-22
Actualy, Jak, Slayer kills Aes Sedai when he's ordered to - he's an assassin. I don't think he just kills them for fun. I just wanted to bring up the fact that there was something weird going on in the Waterwood that day. Perhaps Ihvon was just following his bond? Did you notice how long it took Alanna to show up to heal Perrin?
14
KINGofWOLVES: 2005-12-27
Slayer is definantly a suspect for the attack, however (as others have pointed out) i find it hard to believe that slayer would (or could) pull people into the world of dreams. Also, it is worth pointing out in the "hound of the shadow" theory that, according to tEotW the ability to track rand perrin and matt was caused by distilling fains memories of where he had been, and feeding them back into him over and over (quite painfully).
tEotW, More tales of the wheel
"... Fain was taken back to Shayol Ghul again, and his mind was - distilled ... what he had sensed was concentrated and fed back. When he entered the two rivers again the next year, he was able to choose his targets more clearly... Fain knew for a certainty that the one he sought was one of three in emonds field."
As Isam / Luc / Slayer has no memories of rand perrin or matt to be "distilled" it seems unlikely that the DO would be able to help him to track rand, perrin or matthe same way he did with fain.
Also, i was under the impression that slayer was less of a hound of the shadow, and more of an unbeatable assasin. All his abilities (ie entering t'a'r in the flesh at will, changing form, and the "many gifts" given to him by the DO seem to be more to help him to assasinate the enemies of the DO, and it is up to him to find them himself.
15
JakOShadows: 2005-12-31
terez:
I always thought that was due to the time lag in getting the message to her. I interpreted that as just needing a more experienced head in the hunt. Not that she expected him to get hurt. Some AS do seem to think that them being ta'veren helps them a good deal more than it usually does.
16
Callandor: 2006-01-04
Ok, getting around to this theory now.
**The first way I came up with was that using his skill in Tel'aran'rhiod, Slayer was able to "pull" one or more (most likely more) Myrddraal or Trollocs into Tel'aran'rhiod and gave them their orders there. Trollocs and Myrddraal DO sleep and when that happened, he pulled them into the Dream World.**
Myrddraal do not have dreams, though. In fact it's in the exact same chapter that you used as evidence for your hypothesis:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 36 - Daughter of the Night
"I serve," she said quickly. "I have served the Lord of the Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream. Dreams were always mine, to use and walk. Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine."**
Trollocs dream, yes, but Myrddraal do not. There's nothing to "pull in" with them. No Myrddraal to control -- Trollocs won't do anything.
**It would then be easy for him to change his appearance to that of Sammael, as I'm sure that working for the Chosen would have given him a glimpse of Sammael.**
Slayer doesn't work like that. He says this in the exact same chapter, exact same paragraph of the quote you gave -- in fact right above it:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air
Isam paced the room, studying by the ever-present light of Tel'aran'rhiod. The bed linens shifted from rumpled to neatly made between one glance and the next. The coverlet changed from flowered to plain dark red to quilted. The ephemeral always changed here, and he barely noticed anymore. He could not use Tel'aran'rhiod the way the Chosen could, but here was where he felt most free. Here, he could be who he wanted to be. He chuckled at the thought.**
Granted, there's the comment that "he could be who he wanted to be" but this more than likely refers to him being either Luc or Isam in whole.
Even in Jordan's blog he says:
"For JustAnotherGreensWarder, Slayer's choices are limited to Isam and Luc."
However I can't find the posted question for some reason. Anyone see it?
But the Forsaken and just about any other person in tel'aran'rhiod could change their appearance -- Slayer doesn't work that way. His choices are either Luc or Isam.
Plus, no matter how much you look like Sammael, it doesn't matter a damn because looks are not what makes Shadowspawn obey Forsaken -- those are special oaths and bonds they gave to the Dark One.
**With the Trollocs and Myrddraal thinking that he was a Chosen, they would obey him.**
Again, it's not just looks -- the Forsaken's oaths and bonds are what allow them to control Myrddraal.
**Using these quotes I could judge that Slayer, having ordered many Trollocs through the Ways already and being able to scare Myrddraal, had ordered them to go through the Ways to where Rand was with strict orders to give the name Sammael to anyone who asked, for his own purposes.**
He gets benefits for his actions from The Shadow Rising -- but the Forsaken can order any number of Shadowspawn they want, can look like Sammael with ease, and have all the reason to want Rand dead.
Slayer has just order a few (and it is a few) thousand Trollocs at this instance. A golf clap is in order, but there are far better canidates. Though he is far and away ahead of Fain.
**You could question that Slayer couldn't have know where Rand was as he had been jumping around a lot, but remember, we don't know the full extent of his powers.**
So, your answer is just "We don't know."? Slayer could very well have those powers -- on the other hand he could easily not have them. Lack of evidence isn't proof.
We have a proven method of how the Forsaken can order as many Shadowspawn as they want with ease. We have seen every single step of qualifcation in the Forsaken. Again, Shadowspawn ordering, ease of Illusion, reason to want Rand dead, and finding Rand.
**We can see that Fain, the rebelled Hound of the Shadow, is being hunted by Slayer. Perhaps after Fain rebelled, Slayer was transformed by the Dark One to the new Hound of the Shadow, sort of like a version 2, with better and badder abilities - to work as an assassin and to hunt down Fain.**
But Slayer already had ample powers, since he was already the Shadows assassain (how he killed Amico and Joiya).
**Well, he could be starting to act independently, or he could be acting on the Dark One's secret orders, but I think that to come to a conclusion, you need to see these two points.**
Slayer's independant actions are fulfilled by wanting to kill Perrin. That's it. He won't go near Rand without an order by the Shadow -- hence when his attack on "Rand and Min" in Far Madding fails and he is not ordered to continue, he leaves it be. He would want to kill Rand, at least he says, but he wouldn't because he didn't have the order.
And if he did get the order, why would the Forsaken tell him to kill Rand, and he goes to get Shadowspawn when Slayer is alone a potent killer? Why wouldn't the Forsaken simply order the Shadowspawn themself?
**Slayer would probably be feeling a bit anxious with Moridin's temper for failing to kill Perrin in the Two Rivers, failing to kill Fain, and failing to kill Rand. He's probably getting quite worried, especially since, if he really was the second Hound of the Dark, he knows that he is not indispensable and that the Dark One could replace him if he was incompetent.**
1. Him being another Hound of the Shadow is a supposition anyway. Easily can be that he's not in any form.
2. Moridin could care less about Fain at the moment -- look at his reactions in Winter's Heart about this very subject. He's not adament about it; he's talking of ifs. It'd be nice if Slayer got Fain, in Moridin's mind, but he's not a major target at the moment. Putting Slayer on the case is making it dealt with no matter how long it takes for the job to be done.
3. Moridin more than likely does not know about Slayer trying to kill Rand. If Moridin ordered Rand's death in Far Madding, he wouldn't have been hiding himself. Almost assuredly it was another Forsaken or Taim.
**Slayer, if he was a second Hound of the Dark, was ANYTHING at all like Padan Fain, who spends all of his time obsessing on Rand, he would want Rand dead as well.**
Which brings it completely into doubt that he is another Hound, since he acts so casual about not being able to go kill Rand and Min again.
**I know for Fain it just eats away at him and that he really wants to kill Rand, so why couldn't Slayer be the same.**
Most obvious answer? Because Slayer is not another Hound of the Shadow.
**And why Sammael? Maybe because Slayer thought that would keep Moridin's mind off of him for the moment with puzzling out if Sammael is back or not. That would give him more time to finish his jobs.**
But again, his job with Fain is a back-burner issue with Moridin, and his job with Rand is already closed as a failure. Perrin was a side issue, and the most of his independant actions. Slayer is more than fine already.
**And I also doubt that another Forsaken would pose as Sammael in case something leaked out to Moridin -he seems to know a lot of things going on. As well, I don't know how they would know how Rand was there.**
So, you doubt Moridin would know a Forsaken was posing as Sammael, but you don't doubt Moridin would know Slayer was posing as Sammael? If he can find out about one, he can find out about both. If he can't find out one, he can't find out both.
And, we've been given the method for finding Rand. Ishamael and Lanfear used it before, so it's not unprecedented among the Forsaken. What they do is find where the ta'veren events are happening.
Or -- they just go to the Black Ajah who are with Rand (we already know for sure of one, there could be more, and she could easily give out where they were even if she herself didn't want Rand to die).
**However, we do know that he recieved orders from someone he believed to be a forsaken to kill Rand. Under this light he becomes a possibility, as well as the individual who gave the orders.**
But if it was a Forsaken that gave Slayer his order to kill Rand -- why would they go to him again to simply order Shadowspawn? All they would have to do is pose as Sammael and order the Shadowspawn themself, and it's done.
**Slayer might possibly have a hold on Alanna.**
It is interesting, but Alanna seems to be a Light follower to the best of our knowledge. Course it could be wrong, or it could somehow be that whatever she did to tip of Slayer didn't break that, but it seems doubtful to me. But I do like the explanation of where she went there.
Of course, she wasn't with Rand in the house when they were attacked, either. Her bond isn't nearly as good as it was before, since Rand was bonded by Elayne, Min, and Aviendha (they took "primacy" over her). All she could give was a general location, if even that. "Somewhere to the east of Tear" is a hint, but not too big of one.
**A thought I just had is that the DO wants to make sure that is Forsaken get the job done and aren't scheming or think that they are getting too powerful (Lanfear...). So he's been giving Slayer orders and told him to pose as Sammael and launch an attack at Rand to put the Forsaken off balance. Working together, the Forsaken could be dangerous to the DO, but off balance they will be distrustful of each other. Also, it will encourage the best to survive as the DO has encouraged previously.**
But the Dark One is basically working through Moridin. Moridin is the Nae'blis, making him second in command, so really what Moridin says is what the Dark One wants. Moridin wants Rand alive.
Plus, the Dark One has Shaidar Haran if he wants to keep the Forsaken off balance. His actions have been to get them in line, and he did a fantastic job of it. Doesn't need them more off balance now.
And, the number of Trollocs are needed too.
All in all, good presentation but the idea falls flat to me. Demandred is still my pick.
17
mako0424: 2006-01-08
One more quick and important point, would be that no matter how much authority or influence Slayer might have, he could not convince Myddraal and Trollocs not to lie about being Sammael.
Moridin would be the worst torturer ever, so we have to assume that these Myddraal and Trollocs interviewed truly believed it was Sammael, and being pulled into T'A'R allows for alot of leeway and deception.
I think it couldn't have been SLayer, simply because he isn't a channeler, he's loyal to the Dark, and would never disobey any orders.
18
Trahelion: 2006-01-11
Just to say this, Moridin and Demandred are just guessing that Sammael is back because of the way the attack went against Rand at the mansion. However, nowhere does it ever say that Slayer is posing as Sammael. Maybe Sammael is back..but why would he avoid the other Forsaken. Perhaps Padan Fain forced the Myrdrael he captured to follow Slayer's orders. I know I'm just throwing thoughts out there but there are many possibillities as to why the Trollocs obey Slaer or who ever ordered the attack and as to what happenned to Sammael.
19
Callandor: 2006-01-12
**Maybe Sammael is back..but why would he avoid the other Forsaken. Perhaps Padan Fain forced the Myrdrael he captured to follow Slayer's orders.**
Sammael is definatively dead. No doubt about it, he is not returning at all.
As for Fain, his ONE Myrddraal? Fain had to capture and break down his Myrddraal -- he doesn't command hundreds of them.
**I know I'm just throwing thoughts out there but there are many possibillities as to why the Trollocs obey Slaer or who ever ordered the attack and as to what happenned to Sammael.**
There's only one possibility to what happened to Sammael: he died. End of story.
Who commanded the Shadowspawn is simply a matter of what's more likely: A Forsaken commanding Slayer to hopefully be able to command all the Shadowspawn, and by some unknown and supposed means to mascarade as Sammael -- or a Forsaken did it themself, since they have the known means of ordering Shadowspawn, and looking like Sammael.
It's known ways versus suppositions.
20
New Forsaken: 2006-01-30
In one of his Questions of the week concerning Alvirian's mark Jordan stated that it was different than the mark that the Chosen receive. They have a special mark that lets all of the Shadowspawn know their rank. Now this does not say that they can not be in disguise, but that the Shadowspawn would know that it was one one of the Chosen who commanded them. This is why Moridin looks around the room to see the reacts when the news is announced. Unless someone has found out how to duplicate the mark or it has been given to someone that has not been revealed yet we do not know. Even Arangar states in an off handed way that she has masqueraded as one of the others when she reflects on the news. It is possible that she masqueraded as Sammael from the phrase she uses. I also think that the way she thinks of this is that she was not the one because she thnks that someone else may be doing what she has done in the past tense. Personally I think it was Demandred. He has already ordered the renegade Ashaman to kill Rand once before.
21
Callandor: 2006-01-31
**It is possible that she masqueraded as Sammael from the phrase she uses.**
No. The chapter is in her POV, and Jordan doesn't introduce a new mystery in the POV of the person who did it -- it's not a mystery then.
And, Aran'gar clearly considers the possibility that Demandred is faking his reaction to hide that he posed as Sammael. If she did it, she wouldn't consider that for a second.
22
vgman1: 2006-02-01
Also remember...in Winter's Heart (I think) he's coming after Lan and Nyneave. If he ordered the Trolloc attack, Rand might not have been the target at all.
23
Topaz Ashaman: 2006-02-02
I think it's entirely possible for Slayer to have ordered the attack, and I think people are over-thinking this one a bit.
What's to stop Slayer from "pulling" a Mydraal or a Trolloc into TAR just because they don't dream? No, he probably would not be able to draw them in through their minds while they slept, but as per Rands battle with Rahvin, we see that it is possible for beings to enter the world of dreams in their physical bodies. I see no evidence that entering the world of TAR in the flesh requires the ability to dream. Even if they could not, we know that slayer can command Myrdraal and Trollocs, so what's to stop him from saying "He you ugly, you're going to attack this castle, because I'm Slayer and I say so." What Mydraal besides SH is going to say no to Slayer?
Also, why would Slayer have the need to pose as Sammael? In the Foresaken meeting, Moridin is making a supposition that Sammael is back because he doesn't know who ordered the attack. He knows that none of the Forsaken that are still accounted for would make a move on Rand without his permission for fear of him, so his mind jumps to Sammael, the only one unaccounted for. As we know, between Rand, Logain, and the other folk at the castle, all that was left of the attack was a bunch of charred and impaled bodies, so there was no Trolloc or Mydraal left alive to report to any foresaken or high ranking darkfriend as to the identity of the person who had ordered the attack.
And as to how Slayer knew where Rand was, there are numerous possibilities. Slayer could have eyes and ears close to Rand, those are not limited to Aes Sedai. Slayer might have picked someones mind in TAR that is close to Rand. For example, someone like Min would not have any protection on her dreams. Hell, Slayer could have just been lucky and stumbled upon Rand and improvised an attack. The possibilities are numerous, and I think it leaves a good gateway for Slayer to have ordered the attack.
24
Callandor: 2006-02-02
It's not Lan and Nynaeve; Slayer was after Rand and Min. It's a common misinterpretation. The point of view was of Slayer as "Luc" so his comment about his "nephew and the wench" is refering to Rand and Min (yes, Luc would be Rand's uncle). It doesn't work for Lan, since Lan isn't related to Luc at all, and Isam would be Lan's cousin not nephew.
25
Callandor: 2006-02-03
**What's to stop Slayer from "pulling" a Mydraal or a Trolloc into TAR just because they don't dream?**
Because he fundamentally cannnot do this. He cannot use tel'aran'rhiod like the Forsaken can. He can only take himself into tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, due to his abilities.
Furthermore, in order to pull someone into tel'aran'rhiod, you need them to be sleeping and dreaming. Myrddraals do not dream, as said before.
Without them control of the Trollocs is extremely limited.
**No, he probably would not be able to draw them in through their minds while they slept, but as per Rands battle with Rahvin, we see that it is possible for beings to enter the world of dreams in their physical bodies.**
Which were either a construction just for tel'aran'rhiod, or Rahvin physically brought them there via a gateway. Either way is not possible for Slayer from what we know of his abilities (we know for sure he is not a channeler, so the gateway is completely out).
**I see no evidence that entering the world of TAR in the flesh requires the ability to dream.**
It doesn't -- it requires a gateway. A criteria that Slayer fails at more than the Myrddraal do.
**Even if they could not, we know that slayer can command Myrdraal and Trollocs, so what's to stop him from saying "He you ugly, you're going to attack this castle, because I'm Slayer and I say so." What Mydraal besides SH is going to say no to Slayer?**
The overall problem with this idea is that Slayer does not do missions on his own regarding Rand. He was ordered to attack Rand, and when those orders ceased, he ceased attacking. So, Slayer would need to be ordered to command the Shadowspawn, which is purely redundant since a Forsaken can order the Shadowspawn and cut Slayer out of being the middleman.
And, Slayer cannot impersonate people, and the Forsaken easily can. He still is failing in the abilities, as well the answer is more complicated than is necessary for no known reason, and that complication brings up additional problems Slayer cannot overcome.
**Also, why would Slayer have the need to pose as Sammael?**
To fulfill the criteria -- and, Forsaken are the ones that command Shadowspawn.
**In the Foresaken meeting, Moridin is making a supposition that Sammael is back because he doesn't know who ordered the attack.**
And your reasons for saying Moridin is wrong, besides wanting it to be Slayer? I mean Moridin left a situation where Sammael and Rand were fighting, and knows Rand is still alive and well, and Sammael has disappeared for a long time. If he doesn't know Sammael is dead, it's still going to take a lot to convince him or to make him even think that Sammael is alive.
**And as to how Slayer knew where Rand was, there are numerous possibilities. Slayer could have eyes and ears close to Rand, those are not limited to Aes Sedai.**
The Shadow has eyes-and-ears -- Slayer is ordered to where he goes, and what he does.
**Slayer might have picked someones mind in TAR that is close to Rand.**
Only dreamwalkers as far as we know can enter the Gap of Infinity -- Slayer is not one.
Furthermore, we know from Egwene's POV that you cannot derive a location by simply knowing their dreams:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes
Better to have spied on Logain than Moghedien. She still would not know where he was, but she might have some idea of his plans. Of course, being pulled into his dream might not have been much more pleasant than being drawn into Moghedien's. He hated all Acs Sedai. Arranging his escape had been one of those necessary things; she just hoped the price would not be too high. Forget Logain. Moghedien was the danger, Moghedien who might come after her, even here, especially here, Moghedien who....**
So, you're attributing too much power to Slayer.
**Hell, Slayer could have just been lucky and stumbled upon Rand and improvised an attack.**
He just happened to be leading over 100,000 Shadowspawn?? Just happened to be over 1500 miles from the Blight with this Shadowspawn army, which just happened to have been ordered by someone posing as Sammael?
Someone clearly wanted Rand dead, they clearly had the means to do so, to pass off as Sammael, and knew where Rand was. That's not an accident at any step.
26
Fear: 2006-10-19
One thing I have noticed about RJ's writing is that when he doesnt specifically describe someone dying, they usually aren't dead. There have been too many people coming back to automatically rule someone out. Especially a death as ambiguous as Sammael's. when Rand balefired him, he didn't actually see it, I recall Rand saying "he must be dead, he must be." That immediately set bells to ringing. Also at the same time Rand shot the balefire, Sammael was getting caught by the fog. Is it possible that there is now a link between a changed Sammael and Padan Fain? Fain can find Rand, Sammael can send the trollocs. Working outside the will of the darkone through their link in Shadar Logoth. This seems much more likely to me. I think the forsaken have far too much pride to go around impersonating another forsaken. I also can't believe RJ would bring back a character like slayer after so long an absence in such a way. If slayer is coming back, it will be to fight Lan at Tarwin's Gap in the next book.
27
JakOShadows: 2006-10-22
Fear:
RJ has said himself in straight forward terms that Sammuel is dead. So that means he is dead. Not every instance where a person says "it has to be this way" means that they are automatically wrong. It should make you think twice, but not completely discount it.
28
Callandor: 2006-10-22
**Is it possible that there is now a link between a changed Sammael and Padan Fain? Fain can find Rand, Sammael can send the trollocs. Working outside the will of the darkone through their link in Shadar Logoth.**
Aside from Sammael truly being dead, as JakO said Jordan has confirmed, there is no such link between Fain and Shadar Logoth. Fain was changed by that place and Mordeth, yes, but since he is free of Shadar Logoth there is no connection. That is why Shadar Logoth's destruction does not impact Fain in any way (positively or negatively). He's completely free from that city; no link. It's like a tumor that throws out a blood clot -- there's no strings attached.
29
Fear: 2006-10-23
Its easy to get off topic on specific threads because a lot of them tie in together, There is still the question of how did they find Rand and why did they attack him despite Moridin's command. I saw a thread about Verrin, is it possible she is a darkfriend. I remember at least once where she told a blatant lie in the great hunt. Does it just mean she is free of the three oaths or darkfriend. If so we can place a darkfriend at the scene, who does she work for then.
Personally I dont think she is, I'm thinking she freed herself from the 3 oaths at some point. The attack had Fains fingerprints all over it. The question is who was he (or Verrin) working with. The reactions of the forsaken upon hearing of Sammael makes me think it wasnt any of them, plus the DO has made it pretty plain he wants Rand at the LB. Who is left? Someone not working for DO but still against Rand. Process of elimination. I dont think it is Slayer, it doesn't sit right. I cant explain it but that is what I think. When someone says that "RJ said this it has to be true so dont talk about it anymore" makes as much sense as me saying "I dont know why I just do."
You shoot down a possible link between Fain and Sammael, just in case he is alive, but that makes as much sense as Slayer magically turning into a new hound and immediately developing a link to Rand and co. It took Fain years of searching to find Rand, multiple de/reconstructions by the DO until he developed a link to him. Slayer somehow got one in a couple of days? I find that hard to believe. Why would the DO do that when his first hound turned out so poorly? Hey you know what we need? more crazy lunatics running around messing up my plans. who do I have who is already half way scizoprenic with a fetish for killing stuff? oh ya someone go get Slayer.
30
JakOShadows: 2006-10-24
Fear:
Same as I said on the last thread, let's just take RJ on his word. He is the creator. As for Fain having done it, it doesn't fit his motive. He wants to kill Rand *personally*. That means he wouldn't use 100,000 trollocs to try and kill him. And in the forsaken meeting, you claim that nothing shows that it was any of the forsaken. But it is directly stated Aran'gar has posed as Sammuel before and would have killed Rand had she crossed paths with him. That alone makes it possible that any of the other forsaken could do that. And plus, Demandred's comment of how Sammuel likes to operate like that makes me believe that Demandred was trying to shift the blame else where. Not to mention, the guilty suspects usually tend to speak first out of fear or guilt or whatever you want call it; whether they get away with or not. So I believe that it is quite possible that one of the forsaken did it. Not to mention a forsaken is one of the few characters that sneak 100,000 trollocs out of the blight. Even Fain or Slayer would have a hard time with that; it possible, but the extreme difficulty leads me to believe otherwise. I think most of the evidence points towards on of the forsaken.
31
Callandor: 2006-10-24
**Its easy to get off topic on specific threads because a lot of them tie in together, There is still the question of how did they find Rand and why did they attack him despite Moridin's command.**
Ways of how they found Rand:
1. Ta'veren can be found by those that know how. It's stated quite clearly that Ishamael and Lanfear are good at this, and Graendal knows of this even if she herself might be bad at it -- and all the Forsaken make no shocked comments at this new technique of finding Rand so they obviously know of it as well.
2. The Darkfriend Elza reporting Rand's location, even if she might not know what that entails.
3. Good ol' fashion reports from the Dark One's eyes and ears.
As for why they would go behind Moridin's orders, there's the crazy notion that because they wanted to kill Rand and didn't care about Moridin's order ;).
**I saw a thread about Verrin, is it possible she is a darkfriend. I remember at least once where she told a blatant lie in the great hunt. Does it just mean she is free of the three oaths or darkfriend. If so we can place a darkfriend at the scene, who does she work for then.**
It'd be quite a chore to do, since she quite obviously is working under the constraints of the Three Oaths in the Prologue of The Path of Daggers in the application of the Compulsion-esque weave on the captured Aes Sedai. She can just simply lie to her hearts content there -- but she never does. She does a mighty job of dancing around the issues however, just like anyone bound by the Three Oaths would.
As well, we already have at least one Darkfriend in Rand's group: Elza.
**The attack had Fains fingerprints all over it.**
Hardly -- for the many reasons given above in this thread that simply would be tedious to repeat yet again.
**When someone says that "RJ said this it has to be true so dont talk about it anymore" makes as much sense as me saying "I dont know why I just do."**
Yeah, except for the whole fact that we can back up the factual statements -- whereas you are going on a gut feeling that amounts to absolutely nothing in terms of evidence.