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Home | Index | Archives | Help
ain Sent the Trollocs
by Two Wolves: 2006-03-05 | 2.86 out of 10 (7 votes)
Recent Categories: The Trolloc Attack
A. Triggered the Seanchan defeat at Falme (impact everywhere, but particularly on Arad Doman, the Whitecloaks and anyone else hit by Masema’s Dragonsworn)
B. Touched Elaida and twisted her from hard and ruthless to paranoid narcissist. This has contributed to the balkanization of the Tower, and has paved the way for Egwene to demonstrate her superior “Amyrlin†qualities thus bloodlessly reuniting the Tower.
C. Touched Pedron Niall and twisted him from great military tactician to secretive political dupe, and leaving the Whitecloaks naked to the Seanchan. Short steps to Galad stripping a sizable force and wandering off to fall in love with The First.
D. Drawn Perrin home and provided the stimulus for the awakening of the blood of Manetheren.
Has any other creature of the dark done so much?
In the meantime, he has successfully evaded all efforts by Rand and Isam to kill him. And he has probably killed more darkfriends than all the forces of good combined!
Some things we know about Fain:
1. He hates Rand with passion & obsession (motive). Furthermore, Rand has now destroyed Shadar Logoth, which must enrage the Moridin side. Probably no-one in all of Randland hates Rand more than Fain/Mordeth.
2. He can control trollocs & fades en masse (eg Taren Ferry attack)
3. He can create illusions (at Far Madding)
4. He can use the ways with safety
5. He can sense Rand’s location (directional at least, which would account for passage of time between “Sammael†giving instructions & the attack)
6. His powers are growing (some from the Dark One some from Shadar Logoth – LoC 28 )
These 6 factors give him the motive and means.
The issue is then “how/why the Sammael disguise?â€
Arguably, Fain does not need a disguise: he is being hunted by the Chosen anyway. But either way it may make controlling fades etc easier, and it also adds confusion.
My theory is that when Sammael was consumed by Mashadar, he was not consumed in the sense “obliterated†but rather in the sense “absorbedâ€. Fain’s growing SL powers need only include sufficient knowledge of Sammael to impersonate him in the presence of fades / trollocs.
This may even be a simple case of claiming to be Sammael and inculcating some fear. It seems unlikely that the Fades would actually know Sammael. The old “only the Chosen would claim to be Chosen†trick that would catch out David Hanlon every time.
So, whether or not there was “communication†with SL, I think Fain sent the trollocs. But it’s more fun if there was some communication.
The most obvious counterpoints are that someone else did it. Some thoughts
i. The Chosen – none can be sure Sammael is dead except Moridin. To impersonate him – even briefly – and have him somehow discover this would be a risky act. And all the surviving Chosen are highly risk-averse (except, maybe, Cyndane who is restrained by the mind trap). In any event, few (if any) could know where Rand is.
ii. Black Ajah – incomprehensible that any would have courage to impersonate one of the Chosen or even know how to go about it.
iii. Taim – has motive, but would he risk impersonating Sammael? Taim is also pretty risk averse. No evidence he knows where Rand is.
iv. Isam – no strong motive and no evidence he could impersonate anyone.
A final speculation: what good will come of this?
The first is that the attack saw LTT reveal slaughter-weaves to Logain, and presumably (a) Logain will lead Asha’man once Taim is dealt with, (b) he has time to train Black Tower and (c) weaves will be needed in RG.
Second is that the “reappearance†of “Sammael†will sow further paranoia and distrust among the Chosen.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2006-05-01
Two wolves, thanks for putting together a well developed theory. Another user submitted a similar theory, but I like how you focused your idea on Fain's growing power. I think the strongest points for this theory reside in Sammael's connection to Shadar Logoth. Fain's ability to track Rand is the second strength, and Fain's ability to move that many troops so far south without detection. If a Forsaken knew where Rand was, and was attempting to kill him, it seems odd that most of the Forsaken appear to be oblivious as to where he is and what he is doing. Good luck, Two Wolves, I know there are many disagreements.
Callandor: 2006-05-01
**A. Triggered the Seanchan defeat at Falme (impact everywhere, but particularly on Arad Doman, the Whitecloaks and anyone else hit by Masema’s Dragonsworn)**
Dunno if you can say that. Fain didn't really do anything but stall for time with the Seanchan, and even that was more Turak's curiousity in the people. Rand and the Horn of Valere is what defeated the Seanchan. I guess you could say Fain triggered the defeat the Seanchan because he led Rand there, but then you can say that the person in the inn in Tear that told of Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers was who triggered the defeat of the Trollocs, Slayer, and the Whitecloaks by making Perrin have reason to go back home.
**B. Touched Elaida and twisted her from hard and ruthless to paranoid narcissist. This has contributed to the balkanization of the Tower, and has paved the way for Egwene to demonstrate her superior “Amyrlin†qualities thus bloodlessly reuniting the Tower.**
Even Fain said all he did was enough to make sure she wouldn't support Rand. What Elaida did to the Tower she did herself, and with a helping hand from Alviarin.
**C. Touched Pedron Niall and twisted him from great military tactician to secretive political dupe, and leaving the Whitecloaks naked to the Seanchan. Short steps to Galad stripping a sizable force and wandering off to fall in love with The First.**
Again, he made sure Niall wouldn't support Rand -- Niall was done in by betrayal, and his plans failing due to more betrayal/incompotence.
**D. Drawn Perrin home and provided the stimulus for the awakening of the blood of Manetheren.**
Yeah, he brought Perrin home, which fascillitated basically nothing for chaos.
**Has any other creature of the dark done so much?**
Ishamael has done far more, and directly -- hence why he's Nae'blis, even though he was killed before.
**1. He hates Rand with passion & obsession (motive). Furthermore, Rand has now destroyed Shadar Logoth, which must enrage the Moridin side. Probably no-one in all of Randland hates Rand more than Fain/Mordeth.**
I'm assuming you meant Mordeth, not Moridin there. Yes, Fain hates Rand. But that's also the key reason against Fain sending the Trollocs: he wants to kill Rand in person.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 28 - Letters
Fain felt his smile become a snarl. Trying to kill al'Thor? Al'Thor was his! Al'Thor would die by his hand, no other! Wait. The assassin had gotten past the Aiel, into al'Thor's rooms? "A Gray Man!" He did not recognize that grating sound as his own voice. Gray Men meant the Chosen. Would he never be free of their interference?
...
Fain paced; he had to move. Al'Thor's downfall had to be his doing--his!--not the Chosen's. How could he hurt the man again, hurt to the heart? There were those nattering girls at Culain's Hound, but if Al'Thor did not come when the Two Rivers was harrowed, what would he care even if Fain burned the inn down and the chits with it? What did he have to work with? Only a few remained of his onetime Children of the Light. That had only been a test really--he would have made the man who actually managed to kill Al'Thor beg to be skinned alive!--yet it had cost him numbers: He had the Myrddraal, a handful of Trollocs hidden outside the city, a few Darkfriends gathered in Caemlyn and on the way from Tar Valon. The pull of Al'Thor dragged him on. It was the most remarkable thing about Darkfriends. There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads.**
Fain doesn't want Rand dead. Fain wants to be the one to actually kill Rand. Anyone, or anything, else doing it is inconcievable to Fain. Hence, he has no motive to send Trollocs after Rand.
**2. He can control trollocs & fades en masse (eg Taren Ferry attack)**
He controlled one Myrddraal, which took quite a bit of effort and time, whom controlled the Trollocs. This is no where on the scale of hundreds of thousands of Shadowspawn. Slayer controlled more Shadowspawn than Fain.
**These 6 factors give him the motive and means.**
No, they don't.
**My theory is that when Sammael was consumed by Mashadar, he was not consumed in the sense “obliterated†but rather in the sense “absorbedâ€. Fain’s growing SL powers need only include sufficient knowledge of Sammael to impersonate him in the presence of fades / trollocs.**
And here's the key thing: what Fain did is not like the Mask of Mirrors that the Forsaken can do.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 33 - Blue Carp Street
Torval and Gedwyn came up the stairs with their cloaks over their arms.
"I say we aren't going near him until I know where the others are," Gedwyn growled. "The M'Hael will kill us if. . . ."
Without thought, Rand twisted his wrists in Cutting the Wind and immediately followed with Unfolding the Fan.
The illusion of dead men come back to life vanished, and Fain leaped back with a shriek, blood streaming down the side of his face. Suddenly he tilted his head as though listening, and a moment later, aiming a scream of wordless fury at Rand, he fled down the stairs.**
It wasn't caste around Fain; it was just appearing elsewhere on the stairs.
**This may even be a simple case of claiming to be Sammael and inculcating some fear. It seems unlikely that the Fades would actually know Sammael. The old “only the Chosen would claim to be Chosen†trick that would catch out David Hanlon every time.**
The Fades know Sammael; they know all the Forsaken for the simple reason that the Forsaken can command immediate obediance from Shadowspawn via their oaths to the Dark One:
**Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?
Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.**
The it would be ridiculous to assume the illusion of Sammael would have these same powers of command, since it's not Sammael at all.
**i. The Chosen – none can be sure Sammael is dead except Moridin. To impersonate him – even briefly – and have him somehow discover this would be a risky act. And all the surviving Chosen are highly risk-averse (except, maybe, Cyndane who is restrained by the mind trap). In any event, few (if any) could know where Rand is.**
1. They don't need to know he's dead to impersonate him. It's spreading chaos, who cares if he gets blamed and is alive?
2. We're shown the way that all the Forsaken know of the trick to finding Rand via his ta'veren influence.
**ii. Black Ajah – incomprehensible that any would have courage to impersonate one of the Chosen or even know how to go about it.**
And the fact that impersonation isn't enough -- they need to actually be Forsaken, which Black Ajah are clearly not.
**iii. Taim – has motive, but would he risk impersonating Sammael? Taim is also pretty risk averse. No evidence he knows where Rand is.**
And, again, impersonation is not enough.
**iv. Isam – no strong motive and no evidence he could impersonate anyone.**
However, he is put before Fain in the fact that he actually has commanded more than one Myrddraal before, if no where near the same numbers anyway.
sogoloth: 2006-05-02
Not sure if I agree or disagree. You bring up alot of good points Two Wolves, but one point I am not sure of is the "communication with SL". How is this occuring? As I understood it, the Moridin side of Fain was seperated from SL and Mashadar once he seized Fain and fled SL. We have seen no referrence in the books or elsewhere that indicates any kind of psychic connection (or any connection really) between Fain and Mashadar. The only possible exception is the SL dagger, yet that is also seperate from SL and Mashadar and has been since Mat removed it. Plus RJ has stated that Fain is no longer connected to SL in any way. To me this is the weak spot in your theory.
Can you explain how you believe this would work, given the lack of evidense for a link between Fain and SL, and RJ's comments about their being completely seperated?
Other than that point, you list alot of facts that align well with both motive and means.
Tamyrlin: 2006-05-02
Callandor, you replied that all of the Forsaken can find Rand? Can you substantiate that statement?
CyberFade: 2006-05-02
Callandor: 2. We're shown the way that all the Forsaken know of the trick to finding Rand via his ta'veren influence.
Graendal said it was a lot more difficult than it had been with all the chaos in the Pattern. Also I think it was Ishy and Lanfear that were the best at it in Bath's point of view. Besides, it's not really necessary: the Forsaken are sharing more information now, and they have more mundane methods of determining where their "enemies" are (Shadowspawn, darkfriends, legwork...)
Otherwise you got probably all the points about how unlikely it is that Fain was behind the attack.
JakOShadows: 2006-05-02
Two Wolves:
In the forsaken meeting in KoD, one of the female forsaken(Semirhage I believe) says that it is harder than it seems to track Rand, Mat and Perrin using Moridin's method, and all of the others seem to agree with her. I just looked it up, its on the last page of the chapter At the Garderns in KoD. In my opinion, it definitely casts doubt on whether all the forsaken could find Rand.
Green Man 22: 2006-05-02
**The Fades know Sammael; they know all the Forsaken for the simple reason that the Forsaken can command immediate obediance from Shadowspawn via their oaths to the Dark One...**
**The it would be ridiculous to assume the illusion of Sammael would have these same powers of command, since it's not Sammael at all. **
Assuming that Fain did impersonate Sammael, I agree that just appearing like Sammael would not give Fain equal authority with the Fades like Sammael would have.
But, I think the point of the disguise was to hide his identity from Moridin, not to gain power and authority with the Shadowspawn. As has been seen as the series progresses, Fain is becoming more powerful (as well as more insane).
In the Great Hunt,he was able to command a band of Trollocs with a Fade (albeit arguing about which way to go with the Fade), and ultimately he was able to crucify the fade without being hurt. So Fain clearly had some authority with Shadowspawn even as early as book 2.
Also, as far as we know, Fain is the only one who can "control" the Black Wind, since it talked to him. Fain was responsible for sending the huge armies through the Ways to "flay" the Two Rivers in an effort to get Rand to come home. Although it appears that Isam stole control of these armies, it is clear from Fain's POV that he moved these armies into the Two Rivers. These events took place in book 4.
So we see a progression, where Fain is able to control Shadowspawn to stronger degrees as he becomes more and more twisted and evil.
So to reiterate my point, if it was Fain, he already had the authority to command the Fades and Trollocs, from what we have seen him do so far. He didn't need to assume Sammael's identity to control them, just to hide who he really was, so Moridin wouldn't know. Ishy was dead when Fain sent huge armies into the Two Rivers, so maybe he doesn't know that Fain can control the Shadowspawn like the Forsaken can.
As far as the original theory goes, I agree with Callandor that the motive for Fain doesn't fit. He does personally want to kill Rand. But hey, for the sake of argument, maybe the attack was suppose to overwhelm Rand's followers and the Fades were supposed to try to capture Rand. We don't hear any interaction with the Fades, so we don't know if they had instructions or if it was just a search and destroy kind of thing.
One more thing that makes me lean towards this actually being Fain's doing: We really don't have evidence of any of the Forsaken sending troops through the Ways. Why would any Forsaken send an army through the ways when they could weave a gateway and move the army to the battlefront immediately?
The only thing we see anytime anyone tries to enter the ways now, is the Black Wind guarding from entry.
Fact: Padain Fain can move through the Ways safely, even though we heard that the Black Wind caught him.
Because he is able to travel the ways, and it appears that he can command the Black Wind, it makes sense that he would send Shadowspawn through the ways, since he has no other way of moving large armies undetected across Randland.
While there are some issues with this theory (especially motive), Fain appears to be the only logical person who could have ordered this attack. He had the authority with the Shadowspawn, who would take commands based on authority and not appearance. And if other Fades were later asked who had ordered this, they would tell Moridin what they saw. He also had the ability to travel the Ways and at least to some extent control the Black Wind. He also is the only person with the need for this method of travel.
Fain just makes sense. The only other one that comes to mind is Shaidar Haran. But as he is the Hand of the Dark, I would guess that Moridin would know if it was him.
Ozymandias: 2006-05-02
firstly, let me congratulate you for using the coolest word I've ever heard; balkanization.
Secondly, as much as I hate to support Callandor, Tam, there is VERY strong evidence that it is possible for the Chosen to find Rand. Its all implication, but its as good as fact that he's findable.
Knife of Dreams, At the Gardens, 149
"Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out"
Clearly the Forsaken have SOME means of finding ta'veren. And since Rand is so incredibly strongly ta'veren, it stands to reason he's even easier to find. And admittedly, they do say its "harder" now, but that is still almost perfect evidence that the Forsaken can locate Rand at nearly any time.... Mirror Worlds being a possible exception.
Callie... doing that was like pulling teeth. lol
Callandor: 2006-05-02
**Callandor, you replied that all of the Forsaken can find Rand? Can you substantiate that statement?**
**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 3 - At the Gardens
"If you want to kill someone," he went on, "kill these two!" Suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces. One was tall and wide, with yellow eyes, of all things, and the other was not quite slender and wore a cheeky grin. Creations of Tel'aran'rhiod, they moved stiffly and their expressions never altered. "Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them, and kill them."
Graendal lauged, a mirthless sound. "Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Patter is in flux, full of shifts and spikes."**
**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHATPER: 18 - News for the Dragon
It did not matter. Rand suppressed the sound of the man crying, pushed it odwn to a faint noise on the edge of hearing. He was certain that he was right. But who was the fellow? A Darkfriend, for sure, but not one of the Forsaken. Lews Therin knew their faces as well as he knew his own, and now Rand did, too. A sudden thought made him grimace. How aware of him was the other man? Ta'veren could be found by their effect on the Pattern, though only the Forsaken knew how. Lews Therin certainly had never mentioned knowing--their "conversations" were always brief, and the man seldom gave information willingly--and nothing had drifted across from him on the subject. At least, Lanfear and Ishamael had known how, but no one had found him that way since they had died. Could this link be used in the same fashion? They could all be in danger. More danger than usual, as if usual were not enough.**
**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER 21 - Within the Stone
What else was happening in Tear because of his presence? His being ta'veren did not always have any effect at all, but when it did, the result could blanket an entire city. Best to get on with what he had come for before the wrong people figured out what things like pigeons flying into one another meant. If the Forsaken were sending armies of Trollocs and Myrddraal after him, it was likely that Darkfriends would take any opportunity to put an arrow through his ribs. Making little effort to hide was not the same as making no effort.**
For sure, Ishamael, Lanfear, and Graendal know of the trick to detecting ta'veren (Graendal is also for sure, since she's at least tried it even if she doesn't think it's easy). Aran'gar and the rest of the Forsaken aren't surprised that there is a way to find Rand or other ta'veren in the slightest, and we already have 3 known examples of the Forsaken knowing. It seems ridiculous to assume that all of them do not at least know of the trick, even if Ishamael and Lanfear are just the best at it.
Hence, all the Forsaken have a way of finding Rand with time and patience. And it's not like Rand was only in Tear for a brief visit.
CyberFade: 2006-05-02
Green Man 22, Fain uses the Whitecloaks to draw Rand, Mat and Perrin back to the Two Rivers, the shadowspawn come later. (See the al Vere recaps of the TR situation in tSR.) Also, I don't think Fain has used the Ways since tGH offhand...he traveled normally from Amador to Two Rivers, Two Rivers to Tar Valon and Tar Valon to Carhein that we saw onscreen, and he doesn't turn up in other places outside that.
Reread what Callandor said about Fain's ability to subjugate people/Shadowspawn to his will and the amount of time it takes...and remember that it's only been about a month since Fain and Rand fought in Far Madding to the attack on Rand's hideaway in KoD. Even using the Ways, the timeline is probably too short assuming Fain can instantly take control of a few hundred Fades. For all the places where Jordan doesn't write carefully, I find he's pretty consistant about how long travel takes in his world.
Tamyrlin, it's 3 years between books, you can read a little more slowly ;)
Callandor: 2006-05-03
**In the forsaken meeting in KoD, one of the female forsaken(Semirhage I believe) says that it is harder than it seems to track Rand, Mat and Perrin using Moridin's method, and all of the others seem to agree with her.**
Graendal saying it's harder than Ishamael makes it out to be is only proof that Graendal knows how to do the trick; it's just that Ishamael can be said to be better at it than her.
So, it's hard. Whoopie. Nynaeve dueling Moghedien was hard, too. It's still a completely valid way the Forsaken can find Rand, Mat, and Perrin.
**But, I think the point of the disguise was to hide his identity from Moridin, not to gain power and authority with the Shadowspawn. As has been seen as the series progresses, Fain is becoming more powerful (as well as more insane).**
That doesn't make any sense.
One has to control Shadowspawn to send them somewhere. The Forsaken have this "built in" so to speak, because of their oaths to the Dark One; Shadowspawn have to obey them (even the gholam).
Trollocs are inherently lazy; they have to be drivent to do work. That's what Myrddraal do. But Myrddraal don't just obey anyone.
Fain had to break his Myrddraal over time to get it controlled; he didn't do it instantly to masses of Myrddraal all at once.
**Fain was responsible for sending the huge armies through the Ways to "flay" the Two Rivers in an effort to get Rand to come home. Although it appears that Isam stole control of these armies, it is clear from Fain's POV that he moved these armies into the Two Rivers. These events took place in book 4.**
False.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 56 - Goldeneyes
"From the thick branch of a leafy oak on the edge of the Westwood, Ordeith stared at Emond's Field, a mile to the south. It was impossible. Scourge them. Flay them. Everything had been going according to plan. Even Isam had played into his hands. Why did the fool stop bringing Trollocs? He should have brought in enough to turn the Two Rivers black with them! Spittle dripped from his lips, but he did not notice, any more than he realized that his hand was fumbling at his belt. Harry them till their hearts burst! Harrow them into the ground screaming! All planned to pull Rand al'Thor to him, and it came to this! The Two Rivers had not even been scratched. A few farms burned did not count, nor a few farmers butchered alive for Trolloc cookpots. I want the Two Rivers to burn, burn so the fire lives in men's memories for a thousand years!"
Slayer brought the Trollocs; Fain was exploiting it.
**So we see a progression, where Fain is able to control Shadowspawn to stronger degrees as he becomes more and more twisted and evil.**
No, we see Fain control one Myrddraal after having to torture it. Not hundreds of Myrddraal and thousands of Trollocs all at once.
**So to reiterate my point, if it was Fain, he already had the authority to command the Fades and Trollocs, from what we have seen him do so far.**
Not nearly to the degree required for the attack. Any one of the Forsaken on the other hand has to simply say "Go, and do____." and the Shadowspawn have to obey.
**He didn't need to assume Sammael's identity to control them, just to hide who he really was, so Moridin wouldn't know.**
Why would that matter? Fain wants to kill the Forsaken as much as he wants to kill Rand; Moridin is already hunting (through Slayer) Fain; what does it matter if Moridin knows that Fain sent the Trollocs?
**He does personally want to kill Rand. But hey, for the sake of argument, maybe the attack was suppose to overwhelm Rand's followers and the Fades were supposed to try to capture Rand.**
For the sake of consistancy, the argument isn't plausible. Fain wants to kill Rand personally; sending hundreds of thousands of Trollocs to overwhelm Rand isn't a capturing move. What Semirhage did was a capturing move; overwhelming a small force is a death sentence (or so thought).
**One more thing that makes me lean towards this actually being Fain's doing: We really don't have evidence of any of the Forsaken sending troops through the Ways. Why would any Forsaken send an army through the ways when they could weave a gateway and move the army to the battlefront immediately?**
Because if you read Knife of Dreams, Shadowspawn cannot pass through a gateway and survive. This is how Rand and co. are able to survive the attack: the Deathgates played a vital role.
Every single Forsaken attack using Shadowspawn had to utilize the Ways.
**Fact: Padain Fain can move through the Ways safely, even though we heard that the Black Wind caught him.**
Great for him; forces can still get through the Ways.
Fact: we have a known motive for any Forsaken excluding Ishamael/Moridin wanting to kill Rand.
Fact: we have a known method of how the Forsaken can do this -- they simply order the Shadowspawn.
Fact: we've seen Forsaken send Shadowspawn after Rand before with the intent to kill him.
Fact: we have a known method for how the Forsaken could impersonate Sammael.
Fact: we have a known reason why any of the Forsaken would wish to do so.
Fact: we have a known method of how the Forsaken can locate Rand.
You're arguing against the pure and simple obvious choice with the weakest of all links.
**While there are some issues with this theory (especially motive), Fain appears to be the only logical person who could have ordered this attack.**
Hardly. Fain only out classes a Lightfollower, or a common Darkfriend for ordering the attack on Rand. Both Slayer and Taim make far more sense than Fain, and both pale in comparison with the Forsaken.
**He had the authority with the Shadowspawn, who would take commands based on authority and not appearance.**
No, you're taking one incident and extrapolating it far beyond anything even remotely concievable in Fain's means.
**He also is the only person with the need for this method of travel.**
No, all the Forsaken sending Shadowspawn have to utilize the Ways or conventional travel.
JakOShadows: 2006-05-03
Green Man 22:
***One more thing that makes me lean towards this actually being Fain's doing: We really don't have evidence of any of the Forsaken sending troops through the Ways. Why would any Forsaken send an army through the ways when they could weave a gateway and move the army to the battlefront immediately?***
Rand said that shadowspan can't survive going through gateways, or rather he knew it from his memories as LTT.
KoD, Chapter 19 pg 413(hardback book)
"...'Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied our weave exactly.'
'It doesn't matter where they went,' Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go, man. 'Shadowspan can't survive passing through a gateway.'"
Ishamael666: 2006-05-03
Green Man:
the Trollocs have ALWAYS been coming through the Ways, in every appearance they've made (except for Tarwin's Gap and Fain's Trollocs/Myrddraal that attacked Fal Dara, and the Trollocs in the Waste). Gateways of any kind, not just Deathgates, instantly kill Shadowspawn-that's why the Forsaken don't Travel/Skim in Trollocs to wherever their target is. That's why closing the Manetheren Waygate in TSR was so essential.
Prince of Ravens: 2006-05-05
Let's try to look at it another way.
From the battle in the 2 rivers we know:
1.) Isam/Slayer can move trollocs
2.) Ordeith (Fain) already has (ab)used Isam's trollocs once
So how about the following:
Fain appears as Sammy to Isam/Slayer and orders him to move the trollocs. He ev. helps out a bit in the ways so Machin Shin doesn't destroy his precious trollocs.
Isam telling Moridin when being questioned could explain, why Moridin thinks it was Sammy.
Maybe Fain was around at the attack too and had hoped, he would find a way to kill Rand in the thick of battle?
Callandor: 2006-05-07
**Fain appears as Sammy to Isam/Slayer and orders him to move the trollocs. He ev. helps out a bit in the ways so Machin Shin doesn't destroy his precious trollocs.**
See, the problem with this is still:
1. Fain does not make illusion around himself.
2. Slayer brought the Trollocs for Fain; Fain didn't order Slayer to bring them before.
3. Where is Fain going to meet Slayer? Slayer seems to meet in Tel'aran'rhiod -- where Fain does not have access. Other point would be in the Blight; a strange choice of location due to Fain's passions against the Shadow.
**Maybe Fain was around at the attack too and had hoped, he would find a way to kill Rand in the thick of battle?**
4. Right. Anyone that orders 100,000 troops or so to attack a significantly force and clearly planning to completely overwhelm them, is doing this to force one man out to settle a private vandetta....
JakOShadows: 2006-05-07
Prince of Ravens:
That it is possible, but too complicated to work very well. First of all, when Fain tries to look like someone else, it is literal just image. Whereas the forsaken are a real person under their disguise. So it would be really easy to see the difference. And even if Fain was that lucky, how would he know where to find Isam. There are just too many things that are very difficult and questionable to make this idea a good one. The forsaken on the other hand, have a better motive, can make a better disguise, are already marked as chosen. And they could even directly command the shadowspan. So it is far more likely it is one of them.
Green Man 22: 2006-05-08
Sorry for my last post! I was writing it at work, where I don't have any of my books. As a result, I was trying to go off of memory, which clearly wasn't very accurate, and left me open to slaughter by your replies. Some of you may have thought I was dead, but I was transmigrated to come back to the site once again.
Obviously, the Forsaken have to use the Ways to send Trollocs if they can't be sent through a gateway.
One question for those who have time:
Are there any other instances of anyone sending Shadowspawn through the Ways, besides Ishy in EoTW and Isam in tSR?
Also, good point about the corrupting nature of Fain. Just look what he did to my reasoning on my last post!
Callandor: 2006-05-09
**Are there any other instances of anyone sending Shadowspawn through the Ways, besides Ishy in EoTW and Isam in tSR?**
Again, just about any attack made by Shadowspawn has been via the Ways. Sammael's attack on the Stone, and Semirhage's counterattack/rescue Trollocs, even the use of the Trollocs in the Waste was most likely via the ways, Rahvin's Trollocs in Caemlyn, etc. The instances where Shadowspawn weren't utilizing the Ways are mostly likely just Tarwin's Gap, and the attack on Fal Dara. Other than that, it's a safe bet to say that all other instances used the Ways.
Zalis: 2006-05-19
Perhaps this is just rehashing what's been said above but I haven't read it all.
While we know that Fain has some control over The Ways (over Machin Shin, at least... in TGH at Barthane's Manor) we know that he wants to be THE ONE to kill Rand. It seems to me that he wouldn't want to send 100k Trollocs to possibly do that job for him. Furthermore, I don't think Fain would round up that much Shadowspawn for anything. He has typically used other means for achieving his purposes, such as manipulating those who already have power. (As Mordeth in Aridhol, Turak, Whitecloaks, Riatin...)
As for Fain creating Illusions such as the dead Asha'man in Far Madding... RJ has confirmed that Fain *can* create illusions. But wait - you say - it was the ghosts, you fool! Ok. Then what about that village early in TGH? Rand walks in and only escapes the illusion by channeling. (RJ confirmed this was Fain's doing - check the WoT encyclopaedia) I can't confirm this or even decide for myself which this case was... but I just wanted to remind us that Fain is capable of doing it.
Khazhul: 2006-05-22
**As for Fain creating Illusions such as the dead Asha'man in Far Madding... RJ has confirmed that Fain *can* create illusions. But wait - you say - it was the ghosts, you fool! Ok. Then what about that village early in TGH? Rand walks in and only escapes the illusion by channeling. (RJ confirmed this was Fain's doing - check the WoT encyclopaedia) I can't confirm this or even decide for myself which this case was... but I just wanted to remind us that Fain is capable of doing it.**
Could you or someone post exactly what RJ said about Fain creating Illusions? Also, please post what the Encyclopedia says about that episode in TGH. I don't own the Encyclopedia yet and would like to know exactly what it says about Fain and illusions as I have doubts. If you post specific quotes and passages, I will change my mind if they are proof positive.
Zalis: 2006-05-23
Khazhul: I meant the encyclopaedia WoT site. :)
http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/
Check under TGH, Chapter 10 Summary. I suppose that, being a website and not a hard copy, it's not exactly canonical fact like the Guide. (big white book) But most people consider it to be even more reliable than the WoTFAQ, which I see a lot of people referencing.
But back to Fain: At first I assumed the Asha'man ghosts were Fain. But everyone else started seeing them, so I figured it was that whole ghost phenomenon that's been in the last two books. Then the other week I was rereading TGH and had completely forgotten about the trap Fain left for Rand in chapter 10.
I don't have anything to quote here, but to summarize: Ingtar's party finds a village and Hurin confirms that the DFs (and Fain) have been through there. As the they split up to search the deserted village, Rand enters a house alone. He sees nothing but an empty dinner table. Blink. It goes into a dream-like scene w/ the folks eating dinner and then screaming/running in horror as something enters the room. Blink. It repeats several times, and Rand (not exactly an adept channeler at this point) scrambles to the Void and unknowingly channels to escape the trap.
So we've seen that Fain has power to do some pretty weird things. Whether or not he created the Asha'man illusion is probably a moot point. Either way he's capable of doing it in specific instances, though ghosts are still appearing regardless. (not implying that all of the ghosts are Fain's work, just these two instances)
And I still don't think he sent the Trollocs in KoD. He has never shown himself as one to use Mask of Mirror-like illusions. (a la Semirhage) But your theory's given us more to discuss. ;)
Karede: 2006-06-21
I like your theory but I think that the whole Elaida business has more to do with Alvarian than with Fain.
Anubis: 2006-06-23
Fain wants Rand to die by his own hand, but perhaps Fain sent the Trollocs to kill the people near Rand to make him suffer. If anyone knows about Min by now, it is Fain so perhaps she was the real target.
Also, we do not know that the commanding was done using a forsaken disguise weave. The only reason Morridin assumes that it was a forsaken is because the myrdraal obeyed. Fain is the only non forsaken able to command a myrdraal, and has the most knowledge of Rands strength, and so must be considered as a suspect.
Callandor: 2006-06-26
**Also, we do not know that the commanding was done using a forsaken disguise weave. The only reason Morridin assumes that it was a forsaken is because the myrdraal obeyed. Fain is the only non forsaken able to command a myrdraal, and has the most knowledge of Rands strength, and so must be considered as a suspect.**
Yeah, he's considered a suspect, but then again Myrddraal are considered suspects for the killer of Asmodean. Heck, people even argue for Bashere being a suspect.
There's means and then there are obvious means. Taking what we've seen Fain do, and then taking it completely out of context and amplifying it a hundred or a thousand times sure does make him a suspect. But, taking a Forsaken and keeping them completely within what we for sure know and have seen makes them suspects as well. That we don't have to bend anything, that we don't have to truly suppose anything, that we don't have to twist the situation to absurd lengths, makes them far better canidates than Fain ever dreams of becoming.
And anyway, if you truly want to consider non-Forsaken canidates, you have Taim to look to, and even Slayer makes a far better case than Fain. Both canidates listed are incredibly small chances in light of the obviousness of one of the Forsaken doing this, and both of them out perform Fain by a long shot.
Sampson: 2006-06-30
There is no way that Fain could have sent the trolloc’s. Each Chosen has been “MARKEDâ€. Not exactly like Alviarin, who got marked by SH.
The mark indicated to all shadow spawn that these few people were the chosen of the DO and should not be harmed and should be obeyed. I would assume all shadow spawn, Slayer, Gholam & the lesser spawn would inherently have the ability to see or notice the mark.
Fain, had to torture a fade to get it to listen and follow orders. I will point out that when they left Fal Dara, he didn’t torture and turn the fade, but that was probably the lesson he learned from that experience.
The only person/entity that could have gotten that many trolloc’s moved into position to attack Rand would have been Slayer.
I do not remember if RJ has blatantly stated that Sammuel is toast, so it wouldn’t be surprising if he pops back up – even though I seriously doubt it.
It had to come down to a Chosen who is making a move to throw off the other chosen, and most likely trying to find a weakness in Ishmael, and set up another chosen to be made an example of…who knows might have been Lanfear.
robbocop: 2006-07-27
I liked this theorie. In fact the only thing I can argue against is that you called Fain a "creature of the dark". He's not a creature cos he was not physically created. He just one messed up little man who has combined the two greatest evils the world has ever known. ok bye
Zalis: 2006-08-14
I think we're making a lot of assumptions when we bring non-Forsaken into the list of suspects.
Think Occam's Razor here... and we can probably remove Cyndane & Moggy from the Forsaken list as well. (since we know he can keep track of them w/ the Soultraps) We also know that it wasn't Aran'gar, based on the POV at the meeting. Moridin as well, considering he wasn't happy about it. And, like Fain, he also wants to kill Rand personally.
So who does that leave us? Graendal, Demandred, Semirhage, and Mesaana.
Perhaps Semi did it to drive Rand to action. Demandred may have done it to promote Chaos, and he's always had that jealousy issue in respect to LTT. Mesaana doesn't seem to be in a position to do anything requiring this much initiative. Graendal is a bit of a wildcard now, since she's allying with Aran'gar. She had been working with Sammael in the past and would know his MO quite well... so maybe.
Duggadugga: 2006-08-23
During the Chosen's meeting when Moridin warns everyone not to attach the Dragon Reborn, Arangar apologizes silently for having to kill Al'Thor. This doesn't mean that she ... he ... umm ... (cough) hasn't tried in the past.
Maybe Arangar ordered the attack and knows that the attack was a complete failure. Perhaps that is what brought the talks of alliance with Greandal along. It is obvious that the Chosen can choose to disobey Nae'blis at their own peril. For whatever reason, Arangar thinks that the death of the Dragon Reborn is worth that risk.
JakOShadows: 2006-08-24
***During the Chosen's meeting when Moridin warns everyone not to attach the Dragon Reborn, Arangar apologizes silently for having to kill Al'Thor. This doesn't mean that she ... he ... umm ... (cough) hasn't tried in the past.***
I remember her saying that if she got the oppurtunity to kill him, she would. This implies that she hasn't had a chance to try, let alone make an attempt and fail.
Callandor: 2006-08-24
**Maybe Arangar ordered the attack and knows that the attack was a complete failure.**
Aran'gar wonders who ordered the attack:
**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 3 - At the Gardens
"That sounds like Sammael," Demandred said thoughtfully, twisting his goblet and studying the swirling wine." Perhaps I was mistaken." A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive.**
Since she is wondering who ordered the attack, she herself obviously did not do it.
vardene: 2006-09-05
Despite how good this theory is, am afraid i have to disagree. There are many things i'm not sure of, but it seems fairly certain it has to be demandred. To quote a few instances:
W.H. out of thin air
'kill him' Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again.
Isam's pov
'the man had to be one of the chosen, few save the chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared tring to commmand him. his services were alqways begged, ecept by the great lord himself, and more recently by the chosen, but none of the chosen luc had ever met had taken such precautions as this'.
demendred/taim ordered rand's death and his hatred of lt is widely known. moridin's command not to kill rand would only make him disguise his attempts to do so and wont stop him. i think moridin saying it could only have been one of the chosen was meant to drive home the warning to taim.since graendal, moghedien and cyndane serve him, he should have been able to find out who without telling them unless he has something else planned.
the theory itself though made me aware just how powerful and disruptive fain could be to moridin/D.O's plans.
JakOShadows: 2006-09-05
***demendred/taim ordered rand's death and his hatred of lt is widely known. moridin's command not to kill rand would only make him disguise his attempts to do so and wont stop him. i think moridin saying it could only have been one of the chosen was meant to drive home the warning to taim.since graendal, moghedien and cyndane serve him, he should have been able to find out who without telling them unless he has something else planned.***
What do you mean when you say that it was meant as a warning to taim? Taim wasn't at that meeting specificly. Do you mean indirectly, like warning Demandred that Taim is out of his control? Because Demandred is not Taim. But the fact that Moridin knows it was a forsaken rules Taim out as well, so I think it all boils down to Demandred. I think Moridin knows it was a forsaken and has a hunch who did it, and Demandred knows that Moridin has his ear to the ground now. I think that was the point of making the statement. To let everyone know that there is no more fooling around, that they have to obey his plans or else they'll be punished. It doesn't have to be something convoluted ya know.
Lews Therin Tell-on-em: 2006-09-14
Good idea 2 wolves. i like this theory. Perhaps Fain is Slayer's mystery employer as well?
Anubis: 2006-09-17
**Good idea 2 wolves. i like this theory. Perhaps Fain is Slayer's mystery employer as well?**
Aran'gar seems to be Slayers mystery employer. Read the forsaken chapter in KoD, she is curious to learn who had been playing her little game (refering to using Sammael as a disguise).
vardene: 2006-11-23
i like this theory though i still believe it was taimandred. he has the best motive, and i remmember somewhere it was said that men could read the pattern more easily than women(perhaps to counter dreaming and foretelling)so he may be able to track rand still. the other possible is moridin himself.
But motive and personal instincts aside, it could be fain. He seems able to use the TP and both aspects of it.(it seems the SL power is a counter aspect of the TP which reacts wildly with TP itself-maybe bcos of the DO's nature)
Callandor: 2006-11-28
**i like this theory though i still believe it was taimandred. he has the best motive, and i remmember somewhere it was said that men could read the pattern more easily than women(perhaps to counter dreaming and foretelling)so he may be able to track rand still. the other possible is moridin himself.
But motive and personal instincts aside, it could be fain. He seems able to use the TP and both aspects of it.(it seems the SL power is a counter aspect of the TP which reacts wildly with TP itself-maybe bcos of the DO's nature)**
1. Taim is not Demandred. Joke or not, the theory is debunked, and more than put to rest.
2. Since it would be either Taim or Demandred, I'm assuming you actually meant Demandred not Taim (since Taim poses problems). If so, all I'd say is join the faction:
http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=170
3. I am not aware of your claim that men can read the Pattern more easily than women. We're given nothing of that nature, just that we know it can be done, and is apparently easier for some. Ishamael and Lanfear are good at this. Graendal has done it before, and apparently isn't the best at it. None of the Forsaken made any suprise over this development as if it were a new or secret trick, so they all know of it as well. Yet there's nothing on ease for men or women doing it.
4. You're going to have to show what Fain is doing that's along True Power lines, since nothing of that nature has been brought to my attention. As well, using the True Power is about wanting to and the Dark One letting you. And furthermore, only Moridin has that ranking since at least Winter's Heart (more likely since The Path of Daggers, but it's stated in Winter's Heart), so Fain is not using it currently. Whatever Fain does for his tricks, it's pretty clear that it's unique to him (so, most likely described as just the Shadar Logoth evil).
vardene: 2006-11-30
callandor,
rand has 2wounds described as reflecting two differents sorts of evil-one related to the evil of shadar logoth(SL) from fain and the other from ishy. Rand has described them further as alternating against each other.In randland, we're only told of two sources of power, though a 3rd might exist-the TP(drawn from the DO) and the OP. It therefore follows that since the SL power or evil that fain uses is not OP,it must be the TP.Two,it is evil in nature as described by both nynaeve and flinn therefore it bmust have originated from the DO, the source of all evil.
However it seems clear from the fact that fain can use it without the DO's permission that the permission is not necessary and is only needed to avoid the DO's displeasure.
since the OP has 2halves, thge TP could have 2 halves as well. i dont think i could say more on this without developing a full theory on it.
Callandor: 2006-12-02
**It therefore follows that since the SL power or evil that fain uses is not OP,it must be the TP.Two,it is evil in nature as described by both nynaeve and flinn therefore it bmust have originated from the DO, the source of all evil.**
No.
Fain is not a channeler. The True Power can only be accessed by requesting it and the Dark One letting you:
**New dreadlords? Via TP? What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before? Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity. TP used at SG will fry you instantly.**
**Q: Can you use the TP in the Stedding?
A:ye....er...RAFO. You must be a stone cold fanatic to *want* to use the TP. Moggy is terrified of it. Avoids it.
Q: If TP were used on you, would there be negative effects wrt the DO?
A: RAFO. Of course, if you die, the answer is obvious.**
Jordan already explained why Fain obviously wouldn't be doing that:
**Week 10 Question: Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?
Robert Jordan Answers: The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)
The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.**
Jordan also points out that Fain's power stems from Shadar Logoth, and what the Dark One did to him; that extends to just him being the Dark One's hound.
As well, again, Moridin is the only one allowed to use the True Power now.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his . . . anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison.**
Going with the need to ask permission of the Dark One to use it, obviously he doesn't grant it to anyone else. Since Fain was using his powers even later in Winter's Heart, he clearly wasn't using the True Power.
Finally, it's good that you understand that the Dark One is the source of all evil, but that does not mean everything evil is just the Dark One's work. Shadar Logoth became the way it is due to the Dark One -- but only in the sense as a target in which to act against. Aridhol was fighting the Shadow, and they adopted the Shadow's rules in order to fight it. That's the source. The rest of it is all Shadar Logoth's own evil.
A simple test of this is just the cleansning: if the Shadar Logoth evil was the same as the Dark One's evil, there would be no attraction or repulsion of it in order to draw the taint off of saidin.
**However it seems clear from the fact that fain can use it without the DO's permission that the permission is not necessary and is only needed to avoid the DO's displeasure.
since the OP has 2halves, thge TP could have 2 halves as well. i dont think i could say more on this without developing a full theory on it.**
Well, you're wrong. It's just that simple. You're wrong. Using the True Power is a matter of asking the Dark One, and him letting you. That is why the other Forsaken but Moridin cannot use it now: they will not be allowed to.
And the entire point of the True Power is that it's a unified power, and not split into halves. Men and women use it freely.
So again what Fain is doing is clearly unique to him.
Dragons Shadow: 2006-12-04
Green Man:
A few thoughts. You have stated various times that Fain can "control" Machin Shin:
***Also, as far as we know, Fain is the only one who can "control" the Black Wind, since it talked to him.***
***The only thing we see anytime anyone tries to enter the ways now, is the Black Wind guarding from entry.***
***Fact: Padain Fain can move through the Ways safely, even though we heard that the Black Wind caught him.
Because he is able to travel the ways, and it appears that he can command the Black Wind, it makes sense that he would send Shadowspawn through the ways, since he has no other way of moving large armies undetected across Randland.***
What is the basis for your statement of “control†or command?
This may be a bit unrelated to this theory, but it has always seemed to me that Fain's ability to safely use the ways is due to the unique nature of his soul. When he was caught by Machin Shin in EOTW, it attempted to "eat" his soul. Because of the unique nature of Fain’s soul, it was unable to do this. However, it did absorb some of Fain’s intent. It also gained the ability to "sense" Rand. (In the same way, Fain absorbed some of the madness of Machin Shin.) That is why it was waiting when Rand opened the Waygate at Barthane’s Manor, not because Fain commanded it, but because it was compelled in the same way as Fain. Fain did not know that Rand would go to the Stedding next, but Machin Shin was waiting there as well. Rand would be able to avoid Machin Shin only in the same way he disappears to Fain, by actively embracing the Source.
I admit that I could be completely wrong, but I wanted to put my thoughts out there. If I am wrong, someone please give me quotes to show me.
vardene: 2006-12-08
callandor, pls bear in mind i'm not saying that RJ has said this in the novels, its simply the best explanation available for what fain does. Most of what you posted doesn't apply at all to this situation.The basis of what i'm saying is that there is a counterpoint to the "TP" as there is to saidin.Look at it like this: Humans have a voluntary nervous sys which we control conciously and and involuntary one which we cant but is still part of us.The TP which we know presently is th part of "evil" that the DO conciously uses and controls.But the rest of evil(such as that from S.logoth) is not under his control. (as we've clearly seen from the books.)But they are all part of the essence of evil. In this regard it is similar to the OP, males do not channel saidar nor females channel saidin. In rings, they only make use of someone else's abilities.
Two, (again the similarity to the OP), the 2type are discrete and separate from each other-acting against each other though being the same-as flinn said two different types of evil.
Three, fain is different from the forsaken. He is an amalgam:part DO, part Mordeth and part peddler. With part of the DO in him he could even have independent access to the "TP" without asking permission of anyone.
Four, Demandred thought the chosen had been restricted from touching the TP, but does that apply to fain? Despite his thoughts shadar haran continues to use the TP as we saw in CoT.so he is wrong as the chosen have been wrong before. He probably doesn't even know that S.H. can channel!talk less of fain.Basing your opposition on this is very poor channeling-sorry i meant posting.
Five, the restriction has to be verbal not a physical barrier(or shield to prevent access to TP as you're implying)three reasons for this: A shield would have to be global and would lock out every one including moridin and SH, it seems a great waste of effort. Moridin's use of the TP in TPoD does not include any attempt to gain any sort of permission before channeling-he just did so without thinking. so obviously the "blessing" of the great lord required before touching the TP isnt any form of shield.third demanded says he does it in a hurry-you cant use something in an emmergency if you've got to fill forms and type passwords.
Finally the madness itself is very telling.
**The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison.**
Moridin uses the TP the most and has been described by others of the forsaken as a mad hatter. Fain also lost his sanity after part of the DO was incorporated into him. mordeth was not sane either and the DO's touch on saidin drives men mad. the coincidence is stunning.
PS i apologize for not giving you more quotes, i've had problems upgrading fom this end.
JakOShadows: 2006-12-09
vardene:
I really think your arguments are flawed. Why would RJ have another source of power available to use or control and not have mentioned it yet. There is one book left, and I think we have seen every source of power there is. Secondly, blocking the TP to everyone would require more energy, but the DO is immortal, a God. What does he care how much energy it takes, he can probably afford to use that much energy. And also, I believe that the links that the DO has formed with the forsaken might also be required to channel the TP. So that means that he doesn't need to block everyone globally either.
Callandor: 2006-12-10
**callandor, pls bear in mind i'm not saying that RJ has said this in the novels, its simply the best explanation available for what fain does. Most of what you posted doesn't apply at all to this situation.**
No. It does not. It has several flaws in it.
**The basis of what i'm saying is that there is a counterpoint to the "TP" as there is to saidin.**
Again, the entire point of the True Power is that it is a unified power.
**Three, fain is different from the forsaken. He is an amalgam:part DO, part Mordeth and part peddler. With part of the DO in him he could even have independent access to the "TP" without asking permission of anyone.**
What are you talking about "with part of the Dark One in him?" The Dark One doesn't parcel himself to insert into people. Fain was distilled by the Dark One. He was changed by the Dark One. But there is no element of the Dark One in him, nor is there any element of channeling.
It's a simple fact: you CANNOT use the True Power without the Dark One letting you. He's the only source of it, and he has to let you use it. End of story.
**Four, Demandred thought the chosen had been restricted from touching the TP, but does that apply to fain?**
Since Fain is not a channeler, not a Forsaken, has never even mentioned or alluded to knowledge of the True Power -- yeah, it pretty obviously does. The same way it applies to Mat, you might as well ask.
Again, the only source of the True Power is the Dark One. The only way to access it is to want to and the Dark One letting you. And the only one he lets access it now is Moridin.
**Five, the restriction has to be verbal not a physical barrier(or shield to prevent access to TP as you're implying)three reasons for this: A shield would have to be global and would lock out every one including moridin and SH, it seems a great waste of effort.**
You can shield someone from the True Power.
**Week 8 Question: When a person that can channel is shielded, where is the shield placed? Is it placed around the whole body of the person or around the head of the channeler where they sense saidin/saidar? If you are shielded from the One Power, are you also shielded from the True Power? What happens if someone in a circle is shielded? Can a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded?
Robert Jordan Answers: A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. . (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.) Someone who is shielded and trying to get past the shield can "feel" their way along its inner "surface" hunting for weaknesses, such as the points that indicate where the shield is being maintained or has been tied off. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power. It isn't possible to shield one person out of a circle since, in effect, the circle has become a single person for the purpose of channeling. You would have to shield the entire circle, which would require either a circle of your own or a pretty hefty sa'angreal. A Warder cannot feel that his Aes Sedai has been shielded, though he would be aware of any agitation on her part. But this would tell him no more than that she was agitated.**
As for the rest of it (or how that you got the idea I was saying shield any time...), however you may try to characterize it as, unless you find something else it's how it stands: the Dark One needs to give you permission.
**Moridin uses the TP the most and has been described by others of the forsaken as a mad hatter. Fain also lost his sanity after part of the DO was incorporated into him. mordeth was not sane either and the DO's touch on saidin drives men mad. the coincidence is stunning.**
This doesn't make any sense. We had no -- or at best dramatically little -- idea Fain was mad before going to Shadar Logoth. He was working for three years, or even a year depending on exactly when you want to begin your chosing, after being subjected to the Dark One's working. Where's the madness? It's all after Shadar Logoth.
vardene: 2006-12-14
Callandor,
*****************
Winter's heart-c35
**With the choedan kal**
That was the first difficulty, to fight saidin while surrendering to saidar. The first difficulty, and the key to what he must do.The male and female halves of the true source were alike and unalike, attracting and repelling, fighting against each other even as they worked together to drive the wheel of time. the taint on the true source had its opposite twin too. The wound given him by ishamael thriobbed in time with the taint, while the other, from fain's blade, beat counterpoint in time with the evil that had killed aridhol.**
This makes it plain the OP has 2 halves and parrallels the TP with 2 halves also.
Two,
***The basis of what i'm saying is that there is a counterpoint to the "TP" as there is to saidin.**
*Again, the entire point of the True Power is that it is a unified power.
Callandor,
**Three, fain is different from the forsaken. He is an amalgam:part DO, part Mordeth and part peddler. With part of the DO in him he could even have independent access to the "TP" without asking permission of anyone.**
W.H.-c34
**Blue carp streeet**
"Fain is here" Rand whispered. As if saying the name were a trigger, the twin wounds in his side began throbbing, the older like a disc of ice, the newer a bar of fire across it. "it was him sent the letter"
Why would both wounds react so to fain's presence, except fain had both types of evil in him?
Callandor: 2006-12-15
**This makes it plain the OP has 2 halves and parrallels the TP with 2 halves also.**
It does no such thing. Again, the entire point of the True Power is that it is unified!
All that shows is that the evil of Shadar Logoth was analogous to the attraction and repulsion of saidin and saidar. That's how the Cleansing worked. That doesn't mean the Shadar Logoth evil is "another half" of the True Power. It's just another evil that's separate from the Shadow (even though the originating source is the fight against the Shadow).
**Why would both wounds react so to fain's presence, except fain had both types of evil in him?**
Because one is throbbing? Again, attraction and repulsion. It did the exact same thing in Shadar Logoth. Before Fain's wound:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth
Tying off the weave and loosing saidin brought only some relief. The residue of filth that always seemed to remain behind still throbbed; it almost felt as though the ground were throbbing beneath his boots. His teeth and ears ached. He could not wait to get away from here.
...
The vertical slash of light appeared and widened; the taint pounded inside him again, worse than before; the ground seemed to beat at the soles of the boots.
...
"We are done here," he said, and stepped through the gateway into the Two Rivers. The throbbing vanished with the gateway.**
After Fain's wound:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords
A fan of bricks and stone spread across the way from what might have been a small palace; half its front missing, the rest of the columned facade leaned drunkenly toward the street. He stopped in the middle of the street, just short of the fan, waiting, feeling for another to use saidin. Clinging to the sides of the street was not a good idea, and not simply because any building might fall at any time. A thousand unseen eyes seemed to watch from windows like gouged eye sockets, to watch with a nearly palpable sense of anticipation. Distantly he felt the new wound in his side throbbing, a slash of flame, echoing the evil that clung to the very dust of Shadar Logoth. The old scar clenched like a fist. The pain of his foot seemed very distant indeed. Closer, the Void itself pulsated around him, the Dark One's taint on saidin beating in time with the knife slash across his ribs. A dangerous place by daylight, Shadar Logoth. By night....**
There's also the quote you gave in your own post that shows this distinctly, and Rand says it.
So Fain, being a "user" if you wish of the Shadar Logoth user, would make the beating of Rand's wounds since they are opposites. That's the entire key to how the Cleansing worked: they're opposites, and they attract. They're not halves of the True Power. The True Power is one thing, the Shadar Logoth evil is another. The True Power comes only from the Dark One, and only can be used with his permission (which now is solely for Moridin). The Shadar Logoth evil's originating source is from the idea of using the Shadow's own tactics against them to be worse than the Shadow -- but there is no other connection beyond that. It's power was reserved for Fain, Shadar Logoth itself, and the dagger (which Fain now has).
So, again, there is no True Power element to Fain.
vardene: 2006-12-19
It does no such thing. Again, the entire point of the True Power is that it is unified!
All that shows is that the evil of Shadar Logoth was analogous to the attraction and repulsion of saidin and saidar. That's how the Cleansing worked. That doesn't mean the Shadar Logoth evil is "another half" of the True Power. It's just another evil that's separate from the Shadow (even though the originating source is the fight against the Shadow).
The quote says they're similar in nature-attracting and repelling which is the analogy i'm making that its similar to the OP with saidin and saidar. The best description i can come up with is that one type is 'evil' which can be delibrately controlled and channeled(TP) while the other is involuntary 'evil' which resists control(SL type).
BTW, there are other people using 'evil' powers out there that do not use the 'TP'.Masema's acts hare yet to be explained and shadar haran. The DP (TGH) makes clear he cannot be the DO since the DO's return is set for some future point in time "again the seed slays ancient wrong, now the great lord comes"(i'm quoting this offhead.)
***Because one is throbbing? Again, attraction and repulsion. It did the exact same thing in Shadar Logoth.***
Which shows they're related.There must be some sort of relatiopnship between them for them to react so to each other.
**So, again, there is no True Power element to Fain**
Not at all, you've already said there only the TP and the OP. if fain does not use the OP, then it has to be TP.
Callandor: 2006-12-20
**The quote says they're similar in nature-attracting and repelling which is the analogy i'm making that its similar to the OP with saidin and saidar. The best description i can come up with is that one type is 'evil' which can be delibrately controlled and channeled(TP) while the other is involuntary 'evil' which resists control(SL type)**
I say it over there, and you say it right over there as if I never said anything. Only to you this somehow means that they're halves of the same power and that Fain must be using the True Power.
**BTW, there are other people using 'evil' powers out there that do not use the 'TP'.Masema's acts hare yet to be explained and shadar haran. The DP (TGH) makes clear he cannot be the DO since the DO's return is set for some future point in time "again the seed slays ancient wrong, now the great lord comes"(i'm quoting this offhead.)**
1. What powers has Masema shown, other than being a fanatic?
2. Shaidar Haran obviously uses the True Power. Probably has something to do with him being essentially the Dark One's avatar (though Jordan himself seems to define this differently than normal).
**Which shows they're related.There must be some sort of relatiopnship between them for them to react so to each other.**
Yeah, again, the source of evil in the world: the Dark One.
The True Power is a whole and unified power that has one source: the Dark One. He's the only source of it.
The Dark One indirectly is the source of the Shadar Logoth evil, because again the entire reason Shadar Logoth became the way it is is due to the people taking the same tactics of the Dark One and using them to fight it and becoming as bad or worse.
They're two completely different evils. The Shadar Logoth evil isn't the other "half" of the the True Power. Using one doesn't mean you use the other. But they attract and repell each other because they are both evils.
**Not at all, you've already said there only the TP and the OP. if fain does not use the OP, then it has to be TP.**
Once again, no.
**Date: 2005-09-04 | Location: DragonCon 2005
Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Unknown
Q: Can a person who cannot channel the one power, can they use the true source of the Dark One?
A: No.**
Again, Fain is not using the True Power in any means. At all. Ever. End of story.
vardene: 2006-12-20
TGH chap49
what was meant to be
**More than that.worse than that. Padan Fain was the Dark One's creature to the depths of his soul, but i believe that in Shadar Logoth he fell foul of Mordeth, who was as vile in fighting the shadow as ever the shadow itself was.Mordeth tried to consume Fain's soul, to have a human body again, but found a soul that had been touched directly by the Dark One,and what resulted...what resulted was neither Padan Fain nor mordeth, but something far more evil, a blend of the two. Fain-let us call him that-is more dangerous thgan you cvan believe. You might not have survived such a meeting, and if you had, you might have been worse than turned to the shadow."**
This quote is significant for two reasons-it establishes Fain as an amalgam of some sort, two it shows parallel between Fain and Masema. (They can both turn others to the shadow).
vardene: 2006-12-22
***They're two completely different evils. The Shadar Logoth evil isn't the other "half" of the the True Power. Using one doesn't mean you use the other. But they attract and repell each other because they are both evils.
**Not at all, you've already said there only the TP and the OP. if fain does not use the OP, then it has to be TP.**
Once again, no.
**Date: 2005-09-04 | Location: DragonCon 2005
Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Unknown
Q: Can a person who cannot channel the one power, can they use the true source of the Dark One?
A: No.**
Again, Fain is not using the True Power in any means. At all. Ever. End
of story.***
Two evils? If it doesn't com from the DO, are you advocating another power source?
Callandor: 2006-12-24
**Two evils? If it doesn't com from the DO, are you advocating another power source?**
I'm going to simply start quoting myself since you're clearly incapable of retaining what I have said previously, and I've dealt with all your points and refuted them. And in case you somehow think that you're not being foolish, the quote of myself that I am giving comes from the post you just quoted and tried to take GREATLY out of context, and in fact came from the paragraph directly preceeding it.
**Yeah, again, the source of evil in the world: the Dark One.
The True Power is a whole and unified power that has one source: the Dark One. He's the only source of it.
The Dark One indirectly is the source of the Shadar Logoth evil, because again the entire reason Shadar Logoth became the way it is is due to the people taking the same tactics of the Dark One and using them to fight it and becoming as bad or worse.
They're two completely different evils. The Shadar Logoth evil isn't the other "half" of the the True Power. Using one doesn't mean you use the other. But they attract and repell each other because they are both evils.**
The Dark One is the source of all evil in the world; that does not mean that there can only be "the Dark One's evil." Shadar Logoth is an evil of the world. Machin Shin in the ways can quite possibly be considered an evil as well. The Dark One and the Shadow is an evil.
But the Dark One -- directly or indirectly -- is the source of all of these evils.