he purpose of the Water Way
by a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-21 | 3.22 out of 10 (18 votes)
Every part of world has a traditional way to cope with its male channelers. The only culture that hasn't any method to deal with the male channelers - the Land of Madmen - never reached reestablishment of civilization after the Breaking and it is still in a state of chaos and poverty.
Every culture has traditions that excuse killing the channeling men. It may be just killing (Seanchan, Seafolk), or the Gentling in Westlands, or the treatment as short-living breeding stock in Shara, or the tradition of such men going voluntary into the Blight to be killed there - different cultures with the same result - they give excuse for male channelers early death. Every culture also has way to limit the freedom of channeling women. Sometimes it's exiling or banning or killing the female channelers (Whitecloaks, Tear, Far Madding, Tinkers), sometimes enslaving them (Seanchan), most often restricting them by the rigid rules of an organization of the channelling women themselves (the Tower, Wise Ones, Seafolk, Shara). The only culture that failed to develop such limitations - pre-Hawkwing Seanchan - was in a permanent state of raging violence. Both traditions to control the male and the female channelers are necessary for every culture hoping for normal safe life in WoTworld.
What is the solution for this general Randland’s problem found in the culture of the Amayar? It’s a stable, very peaceful, prospering culture, so it must have an efficient solution. Jordan gave a direct answer at DragonCon:
"How do the Atha’an Miere and the Amayar deal with male channelers?"
RJ: They kill them….. actually the sea folk kill their male channelers. The Amayar don’t channel themselves – they see it as a violation of their water way and they commit suicide."
I understand this answer in the sense that Amayar incriminate both male and female channelers (as many people actually did in the time of Breaking, and as some groups did still), and female channelers also must die. And suicide of all channelers is considered to be a part of the "water way", i.e. the water way is practically functioning as the solution.
If Amayar want their way to deal with the male channelers to work, they must motivate their channelers to commit suicide. Aiel also motivate their male channelers through their warrior’s honor code. The Water way has nothing to do with the warrior’s honor, but eventually it can motivate them well. Actually I think that it was the main purpose of Water Way, or at least the Water way was created with the main purpose to motivate channelers to commit suicide.
What do we know about the Water way? Chapter 1 of Path of Daggers gives the following information:
Quote:
“East the wind blew across Tremalking, where the fair-skinned Amayar farmed their fields, and made fine glass and porcelain, and followed the peace of the Water Way. The Amayar ignored the world beyond their scattered islands, for the Water Way taught that this world was only illusion, a mirrored reflection of belief, yet some watched the wind carry dust and deep summer heat where cold winter rains should be falling, and they remembered tales heard from the Atha'an Miere. Tales of the world beyond, and what prophecy said was to come. Some looked to a hill where a massive stone hand rose from the earth, holding a clear crystal sphere larger than many houses. The Amayar had their own prophecies, and some of those spoke of the hand and the sphere. And the end of illusions.â€
Somehow the Water way must teach that because the world is illusion one must not channel. We have not the knowledge why, but the possible reasoning is that channeling could be considered to be maintaining the Illusion while knowing that it is an Illusion. Channeling is not manipulating the belief, but it is possible to interpret it so. But whatever is Amayar’s reasoning we know that the Water Way is a teaching about the world being an illusion and about the need to commit suicide in some occasion. Three things connected here: teaching about Illusions, suicide and the sa’angreal.
But now in KoD we have another very important case when these three things are also connected: illusions, the sa’angreal and suicide. Actually here we are told how Amayar do react to the fulfillment of their main prophecy. Seafolk women tell Logain about the meltdown of the statue and the suicide (by poison) of all Amayar with no survivors. Apparently it’s the Water Way’s teaching that told them to react exactly so when they see the End of Illusions.
And the End of Illusions is heralded by the Choedan Kal beginning to glow. The evidence for that is in WH, chapter 35, where Timna, an Amayar woman, one of a number of amayar “chosen to protect Atha’an Miere from themselves†is walking near the statue and suddenly she sees the globe glowing. Then she reacts as follows:
Quote:
“All thoughts of the Atha'an Miere gone, Timna gathered her cloak and sat down on the ground, smiling to think that she might see the fulfillment of prophecy and the end of Illusion.â€
We see here that the glowing of the statue is heralding the fulfillment of the prophecy (at least the beginning of said fulfillment) and we see also that Timna is thinking about that with smile. End of Illusions means that Timna has to commit suicide, but she anticipates that with enjoyment, and it is not something to impress anybody else, because in this scene Timna is alone. Timna is really happy that she has to commit suicide soon!
So far so good: an Amayar looking at the globe and seeing it glowing should smile while planning to take the poison and die. In the WH it happens when the globe is glowing for every person who would see it. Choedan Kal wasn’t used before that so it hasn’t glowed before. If a normal woman would walk there before, say, 500 years, she wouldn’t see anything. So far so good, but what would happen if a female amayar channeler would walk near the statue before 500 years? If she just walks around…
Let's remember Egwene's experience near the damaged Choedan Kal key in Tanchico, and Rand's experience near the Cairhienin sa'angreal. Egwene in tSR, ch.11, is sensing almost irresistible attraction to this broken little figurine and touches it and when she did so, the Power suddenly flowed from her into the figurine and back to her and again and again. And (sic!) the globe flickered! Egwene just walked around and oops, there is some light in the globe. And this was not the sa’angreal but only a key, and it was a damaged key! Even more indicative is Rand’s experience in tGH ch.20: he is attracted by something and he sees the statue, and then the Oneness suddenly happens to him and he hears the “song of saidin†and (sic!) he sees a light inside the big globe blinking in the rhythm of said song. Rand is male and male channelers unlike females never see light around another one channeling, but nevertheless Rand is seeing light inside the globe. And Rand is even not channeling in this case. Only being near the statue makes him see light inside it. There are workers around the statue and Rand is wondering how nobody is seeing the light he sees, nor Loial and Hurin who were together with him seemed to see anything.
Now back to our hypothetical female channeler walking nears the statue on Tremalking: what would she see? Go, three attempts for answer? And what will she do after seeing the globe glowing? How much would you bet that it doesn’t involve some poison?
Now back to the problem to deal with channelers. I don't know how exactly Water Way motivated the channelers to die. Once a person decides that he/she is a channeler, he/she can obey the water way and die. But how could one decide? Many wilders do channel and channel and never notice that they are channeling. Some men can die because of Taint without learning it (as some of Rand's Portal Stone lives show). In other cultures the decision about who are the new channelers is performed by other channelers. Amayar have none of their own channelers. So they must decide themselves. How would they? I mean, if some clever founder of the amayar society wished to formulate a method for every Amayar to decide whether he/she is a channeler or not, what would be the best solution? Wouldn’t walking near the statue the perfect self-test?
It could be argued that the Sa’angreal of Tremalking would reveal only the female channelers, and the whole test would be useless because the male channelers are the real issue. But when it comes about Choedan Kal, it’s not so easy. Because Choedan Kal is attuned to so an immense volume of One Power, that it could have more consequences. Saidin and saidar are opposites that repell and (sic!) attract each other. Aes Sedai can test for saidin resonance and so know about past saidin weaves, if enough amount of saidin was used. Note the dependency of the amount of saidin used for this resonance. Male channelers feel tingle when female channelers are holding the Source in the vicinity. There are resonances between both halves of Power especially when huge amounts of Power are used. If there were resonances, wouldn't Choedan Kal be the most likely place where male channeler will sense such resonance? If the male statue manifests glow to male channelers, who were thought to be not able to see such glow, then what’s about the female sa’angreal that would glow more “naturally†because of the connection between saidar and glowing? So the statue in Tremalking could maybe be used also to reveal the male channelers.
Once suggested that many things are suddenly explained. How do the male channeler of Amayar make no problems? This would be achieved by a very easy and simple procedure: Amayar of both genders would go to the statue on a regular basis and look at it, and some Amayar would see that the illusions ended for them personally. And the society of Amayar becomes free of the dreadful male channelers. On a prize.
How this test is related to what we know about the amayar prophesy about the end of Illusions? Why should it mean a personal end of illusions for a channeler in e.g. Free Year 500, if it seems to prophecy the end of the Age specifically? In the PoD quote given above the Amayar are reacting at what they hear from Seafolk about Coramoor (i.e. about Dragon and Tarmon Gaidon related prophecies) by looking more carefully on their statue and thinking about their own prophecy. That means that somehow the Dragon prophecies and amayar prophecies are related. Most likely the amayar prophecy is real prophecy about the end of the Age. But why amayar will believe that this prophecy means they all have to die? Would the prophecy say it specifically? I doubt it, because no prophecy is saying things as “you should do so and soâ€, all the prophecies rather say things like “so and so will happen whatever you doâ€. Prophecies in WoT world just don’t dictate norms of behavior. So the part about the suicide duty can be only an interpretation. Interpretation that became a norm.
In the Water way we have therefore an ideological core determining rules of behavior and rules to judge, and some real knowledge and prophesies that are seen through the filter of the ideology of the Water Way. The real prophecy could say maybe simply that the Age will come to end, that everything will change drastically all over the world and that a number of hard believable events would happen. That could be enough for Amayar to interpret it as “absolutely obvious†indication that the great change from the present poor world to the next better state of reality will come, so the Amayar have to poison themselves and step into the new reality. Something of the sort. It could be even a missinterpretation of suffering people from Breaking time, who vaguely remember the idyllic life of AoL and believe that the current world of chaos and havoc and natural cataclysms (as it was during the Breaking) is only a nightmare, that must end with awakening back in the other reality (i.e. AoL is believed to be this other reality). These poor people could easily think that the prophecy promising radical change is a promise that things will change back from bad to good. But it doesn’t matter what exactly was the initial prophecy. Important is that is was under an “obvious†interpretation, and the interpretation was human work.
The twist from the prophecy to the Water Way can be explained by the sufferings and hope and desperation of a group of people of the late Breaking. But that means that we have to do with hopeless people ready to accept strange beliefs, and such people are … not impossible to be manipulated. Let's assume that we have clever persons in a society of desperate islanders having a vague prophecy about a statue and tending to believe that their sufferings are illusions. Let assume that these clever persons want to make something that will protect the society from the danger of channeling men. Wouldn’t such clever people be easily seduced to manipulate the people’s tendency to believe in illusions and to create some stable society, a society safe from mad channelers?
The water way is known to state, that time will come when illusions will end. We saw that this time coming means that the one who is seeing it must commit suicide. Everybody has to wait for it, everybody has to expect it and everybody ... has therefore to look for the signs for this end of illusions to come. This has a very important purpose. This means that every Amayar would actually carefully look in himself/herself for signs of being a channeler, and everybody will sometimes go to look at the statue. Also carefully. This will make sure that people will find their channeling ability fast enough, before it would lead to any damage. I'm impressed about the cunning scheme of the founders of the water way. They were really genial. If these clever persons don’t believe actually in the prophesy (why should they believe in all what these poor people believe, whom they try to protect from themselves – doesn’t Timna’s PoV in WH show the presence of a virtue in the Amayar society – the virtue to protect the poor infidels from themselves?), or if they interpret it in some metaphorical sense, they could even never suggest that the end of illusion would come for everybody in the same time. Their idea would be rather that the end of illusions would come actually only for a minority of the population. Unfortunately these genial people were wrong.
What happened when the Amayar saw the statue glowing? All amayar began to see signs that only channelers were able to see before. But according to water way everybody who has seen the signs has to commit suicide. Now the Amayar see the signs...
Now again to the motivating the channelers to commit suicide. BWB is speaking about how Amayar deal with violence. It is incredibly shameful. If two young men beat each other, it is excessive shame for them. Such excessive shame could motivate one to commit suicide. But there is a serious risk in it. People would do everything to never notice the potentially shamefull thing they would do. As we know about wilders with their blocks, failing to admit about channeling is really very easy thing. It’s most natural thing to never notice that you are a channeler. If Amayar protection from channeling was based only on shame, they would have many unconscious channelers and the male ones among them will make a lot of trouble without noticing it. Therefore Amayar must have another motivation to commit suicide.
BWB says that Water Way teaches that this fake world is a prelude before stepping into another reality. I bet that Water Way says the next reality is much better than this one. Look again at Timna’s smile when she is facing the End of Illusions. She would commit her suicide with joy, hoping of a good next “real†life. She doesn’t experience any shame in this scene, nor even an anticipation of shame, but she anticipated her coming suicide with joy. My impression is that she even thinks that seeing the End of Illusions is a great honor for her. In a society with excessive stress on shame there would be also significant stress on honor, and feeling righteous will make people happy.
Jordan said that channeling itself is a violation of water way. This is a hint that a righteous Amayar would like to follow the water way without violating it, before actually willingly channeling. The founders of the Water way would like such thing because it will reduce the channeling damage even more. But the righteous Amayar will not want to think about himself as about a channeler, because he would not want to think about himself as about violating the Way. The righteous Amayar will prefer to think that he is not a channeler, but he only is seeing signs and the end of illusions come for him. Feeling himself righteous he will easier want to commit suicide. Now all Amayar see the signs. They don’t need to think they are channelers or not, they see the signs and it's enough... But earlier channelers also could not think they are channelers. They could also face their private exclusive Ends of Illusions with enjoyment. And all Amayar will really care to notice any sign of the Illusions coming to their end. They will not hiding it from themselves and even not from others.
Channeling ability has actually even more touching points to the Illusions and their End. If one believes that the world is Illusion, then what would mean End of Illusions? What is “end of an illusion†at all? Isn’t the end of illusion, when you are experiencing something revealing to you that what you believed until now is not the truth? Or at least not the whole truth? It’s like with Plato’s tale about the cave – the prisoners in the cave believe in simulations, but if a prisoner comes outside the cave and sees the rest of the world, he frees himself from the illusions… End of illusions is experiencing something you thought to be absolutely impossible before. End of illusions is experiencing something “more real†than anything seen before. And what happens to the sensations of a channeler? Doesn’t a channeler see all the colors more colorful, all the shapes more clear, etc... briefly all life in him and around him more real?
Don’t channelers of both genders usually experience their sensations after releasing the Power as less real? Isn’t the usage of One Power a manifestation of wonders one couldn’t believe? Isn’t touching the Source opening a whole wonderful new world, which is irresistibly sweet and attractive? A new world that is like a strong drug for a channeler, a new reality without that the life is dull and not worth of living it. Doesn’t all that fit too well into what we know about the Water Way?
So the implications for channelers of the Water Way and the conditions on Tremalking with it’s sa’angreal, these implications are too much … convenient for the purpose of eliminating any channelers as fast and painless as possible. Too much convenient for to be an accident. And the coincidence between the suicide of channelers and suicide because of End of Illusions is too striking to be just a coincidence.
In summary this theory’s statement is that the Water Way was artificially constructed to guarantee safety of the Tremalking society from the danger of channelers. The founders of the Water Way used a real prophecy (they don’t necessarily believed in) and the aptitude of the population to muse about their unhappy world being an illusion to forge a system of believes and moral that would guarantee peace and prosperity for these poor ignorant people. The main purpose of Water Way’s focus on expecting the End of Illusions was painless and voluntary self-eliminations of all channelers from this “perfect†little world.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-21
Interesting analysis Adbf. My explanation is as follows: the Amayar were established by a group of individuals who believed that the one power is responsible for destroying the world, and making it into a reflection of reality. In a strange way, its as though they believe the world shifted, changed during the breaking. Maybe this was a group that remember the Way of the Leaf of old. Possibly, they believed that the living was more shameful than channeling. So, they believed channelers could get rid of that shame by committing suicide, thereby cleansing their people. The End of Illusions suggests to me that they believed their way would end with the sign of the End, and changing their way would be more shameful than living, so they must make a pact that they will commit suicide if they are shamed, the greatest shame being living after the End of Illusions. It is interesting to consider that their way may have been manipulated. Your idea about those who led them to have such beliefs is interesting. But I harken back to the belief of their's that this world is a reflection, as though their existence is not real, Mirror Worlds, which is key to their entire belief system.
2
lurk: 2005-10-22
adbf, I read the entire theory and loved it.
But I have some points to discuss.
There is no proof in the books that men can see a glow related to saidar. Yes they have the tingle in their skin but no glow. So I´m not convinced that it would work that way. But I´m not dismissing it either (I like to keep my options open :))
secondly, we only have information that sparkers see a glow around an s´angreal (rand and egwene). (Non) sparkers usually only sense temperature or emotion around angreal and ter´angreal) But it is no proof.
But for arguments sake let´s say only sparkers could see a glow. Then it would be very improbale that a male and an female sparker go to the staute together. There are only a very few of them. The odds against it happening are just to good. Especially because you would probably lose female channelers (sparkers) much faster because they do not have these odds gainst them. Making the odds against male sparkers only larger.
So lovely theory but we have to discuss these points to convince me completely
3
drz1649: 2005-10-22
hey, it's an interesting theory and you've obviously given a lot of thought and time to it...but what's the relevance to anything important?
the female Choedan Kal is destroyed and the Amayar are all dead. whatever the founders of that society thought or planned doesn't really matter, because that society just destroyed itself. unless Alviarin's trip there has some unforeseen future impact, the practices of the Amayar have zero import on the main story. you can probably count the number of times Amayar has been referenced over the eleven books on your fingers.
4
Zader: 2005-10-23
Adbf
There seems to be some similarities between "Way of the Leaf" and "Water Way".
We know there is a definite tie up between the Tinkers and the Aiel. The Aiel believe to die, is to wake from the Dream. Wake from the Dream; End of the Age of illusion, this could be the corrupted belief system.
5
Khazhul: 2005-10-24
A very long theory with so little in the books to go on. I never gave the Amayar much thought but I do think they are an offshoot of the Aiel from AoL. The way the Seafolk revered/respected/cared for them as shown by thier reaction in KoD is very similar to how we saw, through Rand's eyes, how most viewed the Aiel in the AoL. They were greatly respected and protected. I'm referring to Rand's trip through his ancestors eyes.
Interesting note to this though is that the Amayar had a prophecy. So far, all prophecy has come through the One Power, channelers who have the foretelling. Now before someone starts referencing Min, I would like to put forward now that Min doesn't prophesize, she views the pattern for individuals, not societies or cultures.
I can't buy into the artificially constructed society. I would rather believe that it is all misinterpretation if anything at all. It's a constant theme with these books, just because you believe something to be true, does not mean it is. The Amayar just might be one more society that thought they knew the truth of life and wound up being 'dead' wrong.
I would need more evidence to think there is a conspiracy by some ancient Amayars.
6
a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-26
to Tamyrlin
First, thank you for so fast publishing my theory. And I knew I can rely on you on everything in any possible connection to reflected worlds :) , something that I missed to notice about the Water Way. The reflected worlds are hardly reflections exactly "of belief" as Amayar believe, but Amayar's idea could be twisted by the historical development like every belief in the Wheel of Time universe. Amayar believing that Aes Sedai are responsible in shifting the world into irreal nightmare reflecetd world is a very intriguing idea. If my theory is correct, then the founders of the water way must be quite educated persons and theorizing like this would fit well here. But whether they believed in shifting of reality or not, there is still need to explain why they have to commit suicide at the End of Illusions. And I don't agree that they did it because of shame.
*** "Possibly, they believed that the living was more shameful than channeling. So, they believed channelers could get rid of that shame by committing suicide, thereby cleansing their people. The End of Illusions suggests to me that they believed their way would end with the sign of the End, and changing their way would be more shameful than living, so they must make a pact that they will commit suicide if they are shamed, the greatest shame being living after the End of Illusions." ***
I don't see how this explanation would fit with Timna's reaction when she saw the End of Illusions. Timna smiled. It was not a chill, not a gasp, not anything to express coming shame. It was a silent smile. She reacts on the reason for her suicide with smile, i.e. she assotiates only positive emotions with the End of Illusions. Without this smile I would also opt for the shame as suicide motivation - from real history we know how well shame works for this purpose. But this smile changes the situation about the End of Illusions. And because a female channeler before years would see something very similar to what Timna saw, most likely she would react in the same way. Unless Timna is a very unusual Amayar, what is not likely. Also in the real history most oftem mass suicides are comitted by sects believing that this will bring them into a better world because of the end of time, while suicides because of shame are usually individual, not mass ones. BWB says that water way states this illusional world being only a stage before entering another existence. This another existence would be most likely believed to be both more real and better, so Amayar would like to enter this "paradise" when the conditions allow. If the conditions that allows such change between realities is the "end of illusions", everything will match together. And I don't think Amayar believe living to be shameful. If they believed so, they wouldn't live until now.
to Lurk
*** "There is no proof in the books that men can see a glow related to saidar. Yes they have the tingle in their skin but no glow. So I´m not convinced that it would work that way. ... secondly, we only have information that sparkers see a glow around an s´angreal (rand and egwene). (Non) sparkers usually only sense temperature or emotion around angreal and ter´angreal)" ***
These two points are to be IMO addressed together. The glow is a specific feature of sa'angreals bith male and female (unlike angreals, that don't manifest any glow both in male and female cases). Men don't see glow related to saidar, neither do they see glow related to saidin. Men see only specific weaves. And they see glow only in one specific case - when a sa'angreal (not angreal) is in action. When there is active channeling through a sa'angreal, they allways glow separately of the channelers, and sometimes even non-channelers can see glow. Glowing is seen when Callandor is used, glowing is also the sa'angreal from the White Tower (used when Mat was Healed by Amyrlin), and both Choedan Kal statues glow during the Cleansing for people who are maybe non-channelers or at least seem to be not young enough to be sparkers (Timna because of her social position and the farmer from Cairhien because we have seen him earlier as not so young). When Rand uses Callandor it seems both male and female characters and even non-channelers see it glowing. Briefly: sa'angreals glow in much more cases than anything else. And sa'angreal's glowing seem to depend of the amount of OP used.
It is really problematic whether a male channeler would see something at the female Choedan Kal. I suggest that he could see glow, because sa'angreals in general seem to react with glowing to resonances. Again male channelers wouldn't be able to to see a glow even around the male CK if the glow was because of general male sensing of saidin, therefore the glow is because of the sa'angreal. However if male channelers sense only non-glow effects it would also be strange feeling for them enough to be usable to indicate an "end of illusions" in sense of a simptom for existence of a "different reality". I focussed ion the glowing because Timna saw the glowing as indication of end of Illusions, so we know that the glowing is an indication. We don't know whether there are other indications.
And male and female channelers would not need to go together to the statue. I suggest that a male channeler alone will sense something of a resonance when closing the sa'angreal. Choedan Kal is too powerfull generator of simultaneous Power resonances.
to Zader
Many people have speculated about the similarities between the Amayar, Aiel and Tinkers. Water Way is similar to the Way of Leaf but it is not the same. BWB makles a statement about such distinction between them. In the best case the Water Way is a significant deviation from the Way of Leaf or it could be reconstructed after vague memories about the AoLer da'shain. As about the believes about the world being an illusion it is common not only for Amayar and Aiel. Many philosophies of Westlands also are based on similar believes. Some White Ajah sisters teach it, and the most popular 3Age philosopher Willim of Maneches has lot to do with philosophy of illusions (as seen in NS, ch.8). It may mean that it's influence of ancient Aiel, but it is also possible that such believes developed independently in the time of Breaking. Breaking was such a time, that it would encourage quite much the idea that the world is a dream: if the reality is looking like a nightmare it is not difficult to conclude that it is actually a nightmare. Philosophies about the world being illusion may be teachings survived from the time of Breaking. But even if Amayar come from the da'shain, their system of believes was significantly changed.
to Khazhul
*** "I can't buy into the artificially constructed society. I would rather believe that it is all misinterpretation if anything at all. It's a constant theme with these books, just because you believe something to be true, does not mean it is. The Amayar just might be one more society that thought they knew the truth of life and wound up being 'dead' wrong." ***
The theme in the books regarding social projects was rather that there are allways major undesired consequences so that the result is never what was intended to achieve. This is true also about what my theory wants to say about the Amayar. The mass suicide was hardly what such a social engeneering aiming on safety from channelers would intend. And there are lot of attempts of major social projects in Westlands histry, some of them including manipulation. And my theory is based on Amayar being too much effective in avoiding the problems with channelers including with unconscious ones. It could be that their society attained this efficacy just by accident, but...
***"Interesting note to this though is that the Amayar had a prophecy. So far, all prophecy has come through the One Power, channelers who have the foretelling." ***
It's a good observation. By the way in all WoTworld societies the ones who were effective against channelers were usually other channelers. Not only in direct action but also in forming mental traditions. There's nothing to wonder about, because channelers are who know what is really important for and about channelers. And channelers are who know how to identify channelers. And, Foretelling happens only to channelers, but it doesn't come through channeling, i.e. it's something that can happen t a unconscious channeler. Or a channeler could say a prophecy and die soon after that... Actually there are too many possibilities of how the original prophecy and the foundation of the Water Way are linked. My impression is that the Water Way is after the prophecy and is also twisting the original sense of the prophecy, so it's likely that the person's responsible for the Water Way are different from the person with the Foretelling.
7
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-10-28
I liked your theory adbf!
It gave me some insight into the Amayar who weren't given that much part in the books and were quite mysterious.
I don't really have any arguements against this theory, so good job :)
8
Traveller: 2005-10-31
I just thought that it would be interesting to think about the meaning of the water way.
The way of the leaf means that each leaf falls at its appointed time without struggling. I think that Timna smiled because the Amayar believe that death is not simply the end of life and final. They believe that, like the water cycle, life goes round and round in different forms, so different to the Aiel belief of simply waking from the dream that is life, I think the amayar think that they are ending an illusion to move onto the next stage.
I agree with what you have said, adbf, but I am not sure whether it will be relevant, or even if Jordan thought about it this deeply, because I think the whole point of the Amayar in the books is for them to die and make everyone go "Aaaaah! Isn't it sad that such a bad thing came from such a good one!" and at most to make Rand even more depressed than he already is, but it seems that the amount of detail you have given may not be so useful.
However, I will repeat that I agree with you and think that you have the right of it.
9
a dragonburned fool: 2005-11-01
***I agree with what you have said, adbf, but I am not sure whether it will be relevant, or even if Jordan thought about it this deeply, because I think the whole point of the Amayar in the books is for them to die and make everyone go "Aaaaah! Isn't it sad that such a bad thing came from such a good one!" and at most to make Rand even more depressed than he already is, but it seems that the amount of detail you have given may not be so useful.***
I think this is something Jordan would rather think about. From different interviews about Seanchan, Sahra, Land of Madmen he often stressed the importance of the way these cultures dealed (or not dealed) with the danger of channeling men and with the control over the channeling women, and it is a point definitely important for him. I have the feeling that Jordan constructed his set of different cultures (especially the cultures with no plot importance like Shara and especially the Land of Madmen) initially as different cultural responses to the challenge of channeling men. We have actually the full set of possible solutions: the simple lack of any solution (Land of Madmen), a simple killing of men without any solution about the women (pre-Hawkwing Seanchan), simple killing with way-of-life based organization of female channelers (Seafolk), pseudo-human elliminating with strong official organization of female channelers (Westlands), putting the channeling men in the category of breeding animals with seclusion of all channelers into a separate closed cast (Shara), heroic suicide of men and traditional-based honor-ruled organization of women (Aiel) - everything is there. From the possible at first glance solutions only a pseudo-religiously motivated suicide is missing. And actually we have it in Amayar. I see a pattern in all that.
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JakOShadows: 2005-11-02
Good job to think this through, adbf. I especially agree with your last reply, how RJ represented all the different ways of dealing male channelers. And it is quite a gasp moment, I don't see how anyone could have missed it like RJ said. Do you think the seafolk will send ships to try and save them? Because while Logain was really cold about it, and told them their duty was to the DR, they could still try if they were stubborn enough(which I believe they are).
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adamko: 2005-11-05
"Amayar of both genders would go to the statue on a regular basis and look at it, and some Amayar would see that the illusions ended for them personally." - KoD, To Make An Anchor Weep p.475:
"Amayar on Tremalking began asking the gift off passage to every island."
And a bit further down
"No Amayar had ever requested the gift of passage in Harine's memory..."
Thus only Amayar on Tremalking could have used the statue in the way you described. The other islands had to do without.
"What happened when the Amayar saw the statue glowing? All amayar began to see signs that only channelers were able to see before. But according to water way everybody who has seen the signs has to commit suicide. Now the Amayar see the signs..."
Again, only the Tremalking Amayar could actually see the glow, yet some did not commit suicide (as you suggest they should) until they were able to pass on the news to other islands. The Amayar on those islands had not seen the glow, yet poisoned themselves anyway.
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minalth: 2005-11-05
some of these guys survive as unpolluted AOL style aiel and will sing with the ogier etc... (they have the Voice)
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JakOShadows: 2005-11-06
minalth:
What are you trying to say there? That they can sing, that they still remember the song the tinkers are searching for. A little explanation would be useful.
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a dragonburned fool: 2005-11-07
I still haven't read Knife of Dreams, and maybe there is evidence that there are Amayar located somewhere else except tremalking. If this is so, then I would need to reconsider at least parts of my theory. The mentioned Amayar requiring travel to other islands could mean some mission of heralding the End of Time to all people on the world or anything else, but it will have fatal meaning on this theory only if there are other Aamyar on the other islands.
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Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-08
Just a question in response to you Minalth. I wonder if this Song that the Tinkers are looking for has any relation to the Prologue of the EotW.
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount
The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part. Ilyena, my love, we have a guest. Ilyena, where are you?"
I've always found that quote interesting and I wonder if this will have something to do with the Tinkers finding the Song.
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JakOShadows: 2005-11-08
It could be, but I don't think the tinkers will see Rand anytime soon. And plus, what are the odds of LTT's song coming through to Rand and Rand actually starts singing it while they are there? If you could think of a reason why, then it make sense. But as of now, I don't think he's going to be doing much rebuilding or singing or any of the like that would spark LTT's memory of the song.
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Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-09
Well, there's a massive twelfth book coming! I hold to the idea that the Tinkers will find the Song in the last book, perhaps from Lews Therin's memories, and Rand telling them. There's going to be a lot of things happening so I don't see why that couldn't be a small side-plot.
Maybe the Tinkers and Ogier will sing it, like in the AoL when Rand sees them in the Rhuidean Rings, to regrow the trees and plants after the devastation of the Last Battle.
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JennSedai: 2005-11-25
Nice points! The Water Way seems another iteration of what we have seen throughout TWoT. The isolation of the breaking fragmented groups that had originally held very similar beliefs and caused them to focus on elements of particular application to them. The Aiel, the Tinkers, the White Cloaks, the Aes Sedai, the Seanchen etc. all have the common quality of having hyperfocused on some aspect of the old "truths" or traditions, now colored by calamity and new cirucumstance. The concept of remaining apart seems to be the part that is falling away, and the more extreme and separatist the groups ideals, the less likely they are to be able to adapt. RJ has told us that Tarmon Gaidon heralds the breaking of the Wheel and introduces linear time and therefore freedom from repetition. Nothing will be able to remain the same in that framework.
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Fourth Age Historian: 2008-08-20
One further question about the Amayar: could the survivors on other islands have anything to do with Bayle Domon's "Crystal lattice on an island that hums when the moon is up" (TEOTW 24 - Flight Down the Arinelle)? We've seen something that is/could be all of the other items he's described, and since the Amayar are the only people we hadn't heard much about until recently, it seems circumstancially probable.