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he Merging of Rand and Moridin
by Ozymandias: 2005-10-21 | 4.86 out of 10 (22 votes)
Recent Categories: LTT, Rand, and Moridin
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords
"Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. Everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar."
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER 21 – Within the Stone
“The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction, and they would touch.â€
Obviously there is SOME sort of connection. This connection if further reinforced by what I believe to be a commonly misinterpreted viewing of Min’s.
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 33 – A Bath
“It was you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge in to one another… I don’t know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies.â€
Rand interprets this to mean he and Lews Therin will merge and one will die. This is not, however, so certain. Rand only thinks this because he has not yet gone through the whole balefire incident. I think that this man he merges with almost HAS to be Moridin.
Point A: One of them must die at the Last Battle
We know that Rand, as the Champion of Light, and Moridin, as Nae’blis of the Dark One, have to duke it out at some point during the Last Battle to see whether the Dark One is resealed or if he breaks loose. In addition to this, Rand and Moridin are undeniably merging, much in the same way as Mat and Perrin and Rand are all beginning to sort of develop a new awareness of each other. So… they’re merging, and one dies. There you go, a simpler explanation of the viewing. And simple answers are always the best answers.
Point B: Unlikelihood of LTT/Rand Merging
I just don’t see this happening, at least, not in this way. Yes, Rand and LTT are definitely thinning the barrier between being separate, but what happens when it totally breaks? We have evidence here of this phenomenon: Mat. Mat is still undeniably one person, albeit with numerous extraneous memories floating around his head. Same with Rand. Rand will merely have a bunch more LTT memories in his head, not a merged personality. Rand won’t be seeing the things LTT sees, because LTT doesn’t see anything at all. Rand, on the other hand, most definitely CAN see from Moridin’s perspective, and already has. In fact, we KNOW that a LTT/Rand merger won’t happen, because if it were going to, it should have already. I am referring, of course, to when LTT seizes the Source.
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: Vows
“The One Power filled him – but in that moment of dizziness, Lews Therin had seized it away from himâ€
TITLE: Fires of Heaven CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn
“Why had Lews Therin tried to take him over? To make him into Lews Therin. He was sure that was who that dark-eyed man with the suffering face had been. Why now? Because he could in this place, whatever it was? Wait. It had been Lews Therin who shouted that adamant no. Not an attack by Lews Therin.â€
Firstly we see that it wouldn’t be a merger so much as a replacement of being, which are actually two different things. Secondly, we see that Lews Therin will try and become Lews Therin, not Rand, if he gains control for even one second… which he DOES. Therefore, it is obviously impossible for Lews Therin to annex Rand in to himself in Randland (not the real world, Randland is actually a Mirror World).
Obviously this could go either way. But we definitely see Rand and Moridin beginning to actually MERGE, not just exchange memories. We know that the mere exchange of memories does not constitute a merge, since no one is arguing that Mat is not Mat. We know that Rand or Moridin has to die FOR A FACT, and we don’t know this about LTT and Rand.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-28
Pretty speculative at the moment, but since when has that stopped us. There is the viewing and the recent information to go by. But how are you suggesting that they will Merge? Both their souls will end up in one body? Both bodies will somehow merge? In what sense are you suggesting a merge? I think we need a more definitive understanding of what you are suggesting. However, I do like the idea that we missed it that Min was speaking of Rand and Moridin. I wonder if it will be something akin to their battle in the air over Falme. If you consider Jordan's recent answer, the Wheel was responsible, it was an affect of the Wheel.
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-28
Pretty speculative at the moment, but since when has that stopped us. There is the viewing and the recent information to go by. But how are you suggesting that they will Merge? Both their souls will end up in one body? Both bodies will somehow merge? In what sense are you suggesting a merge? I think we need a more definitive understanding of what you are suggesting. However, I do like the idea that we missed it that Min was speaking of Rand and Moridin. I wonder if it will be something akin to their battle in the air over Falme. If you consider Jordan's recent answer, the Wheel was responsible, it was an affect of the Wheel.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-28
Glad to see I was important enough to warrant two identical responses from Tam. And I think Rand and Moridin will have their consciousness' merge. Not souls so much as they will be sharing each other's emotions; seeing from each other's eyes, at times. A little like the Warder bond, I guess, but more deep than that
Tristin: 2005-10-28
"I just don’t see this happening, at least, not in this way. Yes, Rand and LTT are definitely thinning the barrier between being separate, but what happens when it totally breaks? We have evidence here of this phenomenon: Mat. Mat is still undeniably one person, albeit with numerous extraneous memories floating around his head. Same with Rand. Rand will merely have a bunch more LTT memories in his head, not a merged personality. Rand won’t be seeing the things LTT sees, because LTT doesn’t see anything at all."
I don't think we can say that the LTT/Rand thing and the Matt thing are the same. Matt doesn't have people in his head just memories; he can't talk to anyone. Even saying that he doesn't have a voice to talk to because he has so many bits of memory from so many different people doesn't work because it isn't our memories that give us a voice.
I think something is definitely going to happen with Rand/Moridin but to say that they are going to start feeling eachother and all that is the same kind of merger that Rand already has with LTT.
The question is whether Min actually means merge, which it sounds like she does or not. A merger would have to be two consciousness in the same body. Anything else would be a body switch or just a connection.
Now I would take Min's reading to have already occurred for the most part. The bit that touched was the balefire and the merging is what has occurred up until this point. The only thing left to happen is that one of them dies.
terez: 2005-10-29
Thought you guys might find this interesting, if it's not fresh in your memory.
TITLE: the Eye of the World CHAPTER 24, "Flight Down the Arinelle"
"Rand turned about in one spot, staring. Staring at his own image thrown back at him a thousandfold. Ten thousandfold. Above was blackness, and blackness below, but all around him stood mirrors, mirrors set at every angle, mirrors as far as he could see, all showing him, crouched and turning, staring wide-eyed and frightened.
A red blur drifted across the mirrors. He spun, trying to catch it, but in every mirror it drifted behind his own image and vanished. Then it was back again, but not as a blur. Ba'alzamon strode across the mirrors, ten thousand Ba'alzamons, searching, crossing and recrossing the slivery mirrors.
He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face."
Ozymandias: 2005-10-29
terez... you say that Moridin and Rand cannot feel each other's thoughts? They already have. Rand said, pretty much definitively, that had he moved "a hair of an inch" (or somehting like that), that he and Moridin would have touched. So we know that they can, because Rand tells us. Why is it such a great leap to think that as time (and their condition) progresses, they will not begin to become even more intertwined?
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-10-29
I actually agree with the idea that Rand and Moridin will merge, I just don't think that Mat is a good example.
**I just don’t see this happening, at least, not in this way. Yes, Rand and LTT are definitely thinning the barrier between being separate, but what happens when it totally breaks? We have evidence here of this phenomenon: Mat. Mat is still undeniably one person, albeit with numerous extraneous memories floating around his head. Same with Rand. Rand will merely have a bunch more LTT memories in his head, not a merged personality.**
Yes, but I don't think that's a proper example. Those memories were given to him from the Eelfinn - he didn't merge with the people, he was given their memories.
As well, think of Padan Fain. Fain and Mordeth "merged" and look where its got them - split personalities.
**Obviously this could go either way. But we definitely see Rand and Moridin beginning to actually MERGE,**
We've only really seen a general awareness that happens rarely so far.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-29
... and terez, forgive me. I meant to address that reply to Tristin.
Why is Mat such a terrible example? Just because he was given those memories does not mean they can't function in the same way. Mat DOES occaisionally show signs of "merging" assuming the accents and idioms and even languages of dead cultures from his memories. Quite a bit like Lews Therin putting stuff on Rand's tongue with no advance notice...
silverwolf: 2005-10-29
Mat only speaks in accents and idioms other than his own when speaking in the Old Tongue--which makes sense, given that he only knows the Old Tongue through those memories (and, to a lesser extent, the old blood). It's not like Rand's situation--the accent is just the dialect of the Old Tongue he knows, not the result of another personality.
therobotbadger: 2005-10-29
**Rand said, pretty much definitively, that had he moved "a hair of an inch" (or somehting like that), that he and Moridin would have touched. So we know that they can, because Rand tells us.**
I don't think we can take that literally. I mean, obviously Rand and Moridin are not, at the time Rand is thinking this, physically an inch apart. I think it's more the way a shield both wraps around a chaneller and occupies an infintesimal point (from an RJ interview, no quote at present). It's contradictory, but does both opposite things at the same time. Similarly, Rand says he could move just a hair and touch Moridin, but he also says saidin feels like it's just right over his shoulder. Neither are actually physically there.
This is more speculative, but perhaps Rand feels close to Moridin because the two are "close" to each other in the Pattern (if we think of the Pattern in a physical sense)? Meaning that Rand and Moridin are both central to the Pattern's weave, and thus their threads are "close". Don't know how this affects the merging, though...
Tristin: 2005-10-29
The Matt example:
Matt's deal is that he has a ton of memories in his head, its similiar to having seen the parts of alot of movies and having glimpses of different characters and lives, the only difference being that he is always the main character.
This is way difference than schitzophrenia or multiple personalities.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-29
yeah... but he knows a whole lot of accents and idioms. Theyre being transplanted from his memories into his life. If he had one accent/memory set it would be different; but he acts like a multitude of people. Theyre no longer memories, theyre part of his personality. I mean, I don't remember the time I played a southerner in a school play and start talking in accent without realizing it. Mat is having a personality merge with some of the memories in his head. Its undeniable
terez: 2005-10-29
I forgive you, Ozymandias. :) What I find interesting is that Min says one will die and the other will not. Moridin obviously has to die, so that means Rand won't. Well, he will, but he'll live somehow or another. Min's vision, Nicola's Foretelling (dead yet not dead,) and Rand's Aelfinn answer, "to live you must die," make that very clear. The only question yet to be answered is how he will be brought back to life. It might be a Jesus sort of thing - resurrected from the dead, and all that. We'll see. I like the idea that Rand and Moridin become so intertwined that the death of one means the death of the other. They've already battled three times in the series, but this one will be different, for that reason.
Dumai Wells: 2005-10-29
Ozy, you have me convinced on the point that min's viewing is about Rand and Moridin and not Rand and Lews. It makes a lot more sense for it to be Moridin. You could make the argument that Lews is already dead and Min specifically says "one of you dies" meaning "will die" in the future not "one of you is dead". You could argue against this by saying maybe Rand breaks free of Lews inside his head and take that for lews "dying" but I dont think so. It is clear now after KOD that Rand and Moridin have merged in some way. Remember RJ loves working with Polar opposites and Rand and Ishmael are the epitamy of what it means to be polar opposites. Also, its done in a very sutle way by RJ but he keeps poking us with the word "merging" when takling about Rand and Ishmael, Rand and Moridin, and like terez pointed out in that exerpt from TEOTW Rand and Balzamon. I think you got something here Ozy
silverwolf: 2005-10-30
Actually, I'm going to refute part of my own reply:
"The Old Tongue? Is that what it was? They didn't give me one. In fact, I never got to ask any questions. That bell started shaking the walls down, and they hustled me out like I was tracking cow manure on the rugs." She was still staring, her eyes still dig-ging into his head. She knew about the Old Tongue slipping out of him, sometimes. "I. . . almost understood a word here and there, but not to know it. You and Rand got answers. What do they get out of it? The snakes with legs. We aren't going upstairs to find ten years gone, are we, like Bili in the story?" (Taken from TSR, after Mat, Rand, and Moiraine come out of the doorway)
So Mat could speak the Old Tongue entirely apart from his memories gained later in TSR in Rhuidin. However, I still think that changing accent is different than Rand's situation; Mat's is more of a style issue, probably chaning as the circumstances remind him of one memory or another, while in Rand's case a specific personality is having a direct influence on him.
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-10-30
Yes, there are no signs of merging, because who does he merge with? Those are memories "harvested" from peoples' heads by the Eelfinn - the souls of those people are not in him.
And those accents and idioms are from those peoples' memories.
Sporkster: 2005-10-30
A well written theory, with a lot of circumstantial evidence in its favor. I'm not yet convinced, from the evidence you have presented, that an actual MERGE is taking place. No doubt, there is a link, and maybe some leakage (philosophical musings, etc). But an actual MERGE? I don't see it, yet. The evidence is insufficient, in my eyes.
Regardless, I think that the connection between Moridin and Rand will play a large role in the Last Battle. That, you have me convinced of.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-30
silverwolf, Mat speaks phrases and isolated words in the old tongue due to the old blood. After the doorways he speaks and understands the entire language
terez: 2005-10-30
I'll clarify what I was trying to suggest earlier. I think the "merge" will be only a merge on certain levels. Obviously Rand and Moridin are not going to merge bodies like Luc and Isam. Obviously their minds will not merge completely. Only certain events will cause them to momentarily to be ~linked~ to each other, sort of like occupying the same space on a separate plane of reality. Of course, only in the same sense that this has already proven to be true, but most likely becoming more solidly linked over time.
garath: 2005-10-30
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when he enters the doorway (the one in Tear) he speaks the Old Tongue the whole time. When both Rand and Mat come out, Rand mentions that he had to wait for them to find a translator, and Mat says that he hadn't had any trouble understanding them; he used no translator.
silverwolf: 2005-10-31
Matt speaks to the Aelfinn (the doorway in Tear) entirely in the Old Tongue, without a translator. The only conclusion is that he was able to do so before coming through either doorway. If you notice, I agreed with you at first, but immediately corrected myself with another post--the doorways are not responsible for Mat's knowledge of the Old Tongue.
Tristin: 2005-10-31
yes oz, but that is due to memories, not personalities. when he speaks the OT he doesn't get a new personality. or argue with someone in the OT in his head.
WCDWarder: 2005-11-03
Ozy, I definitely agree with your assertion that Min's viewing is about Rand and Moridin merging, and not LTT. After all, this new awareness between Rand and Moridin has to serve a purpose for RJ in the story. And I don't doubt RJ has been getting a kick out of all of us thinking it was LTT for all of this time.
As to the merging itself (and bear with me since this is very much a hypothesis incapable of being proven at this time), the Naeblis can be perceived as the anti-Rand, much like a Christ and an Antichrist. But much like false dragons, the pattern only has room for one of them, and is now rushing the players toward TG to determine who will survive. As this occurs, Rand and Moridin's threads are becoming more intertwined, and eventually will merge into one thread, with no room for both the Christ and the anti-christ in the pattern after TG. As the web is woven, occassionally Moridin and Rand's threads touch, and that is when they become aware of each other in KoD.
The merger is further facilitated by the balefire incident in Shadar Logoth. When their balefire crossed streams (which I always imagined to be like the scene where the Ghostbusters crossed their streams in the movie), the backlash weakened their respective threads in the pattern. If you think about it like a garment that has been drycleaned too many times, the threads tend to weaken and attract other threads and those annoying little balls of thread. Similarly, Rand and Moridin's threads may be weakened as well, and developed an affinity for each other. Eventually, they will have to stick together until one is eliminated entirely.
So although the merger is more metaphorical to me, I believe it is an indication that Rand and Moridin's now-weakened threads will merge into one thread at TG - the victor's.
JakOShadows: 2005-11-04
I've seen a lot of different ideas on the merger, but I really don't what will happen. They are definitely linked and one of them will die, but I don't know to what degree. I agree it probably they won't switch bodies, but they will be able to sense each others emotions and maybe other related stuff. And it could be that they are drawn together very strongly too. But I just wanted to point out the Rand only saw him after he though about the Ansaline Gardens, just where Moridin happened to be. So it may be on a subconscious level for a little time. Because if he had to mention where he was, that indicates a weaker connection. And if you think about it, it has been a long time since the streams of balefire crossed in CoS, in relation to the time until the LB will come. And if he does have to think about where Moridin is, maybe it will help him find Moridin. There just isn't much to go on.
And Mat definitely doesn't fit in this circumstance because the memories were used to fill the gaps in his theories, so its like the lives were forced to fit together in someway.
Lews Therin Tell-on-em: 2005-11-05
Cool! I like this idea. Do you think that that's what Lews Therin was talking anout when he said "We are destroyers, not builders. You, and me, and the other one." or something like that? Just a thought.
JakOShadows: 2005-11-06
Good catch there, that would make sense, now that we know of the link. But it would depend on when it was said. It would have to be after aCoS, and if not, then the link is not formed yet.
FraKcture: 2005-11-07
I definitely lean towards Moridin being the famous "Third man", "other one". He appeared in TPOD, shortly after the balefire crossing. I guess the bottom line on deciding whether or not you agree with this theory is deciding what you think the answer to Min's "merging" viewing is. It is obvious that there is a connection of some sort. But will Rand and Moridin "merge"? That's the question.
I am not sold on the idea that Moridin is the answer to Min's viewing. I'm still of the opinion that LTT truly is in Rand's head and that he will die at the LB and Rand will live. I think LTT and Moridin will both die.
For the record, I don't think we can use the Mat analogy here. It's a totally different circumstance and cannot be used as evidence for or against this theory. Mat does not hear any voices in his head the way Rand does. The closest relation is that he feels the finn can see through his eyes, which could be similar to LTT (and maybe Moridin) being able to see what Rand sees. But Mat's memories have always been described as something he can use to draw on for information. He's never had to battle to stay in control of his body. His memories affect him subconsciously, the way our own life experiences affect us. (Specifically, I'm addressing Ozy's comments about Mat speaking in different accents and idioms.) If Mat had thousands of people inside his head in the same manner that Rand has 2 others, I believe he would have long been overwhelmed.
My opinion stands that Moridin is the "third man" in Rand's head and that this link was created by the crossed balefire. I don't believe Rand and Moridin will merge, at least not to the degree that they will be the answer to Min's viewing. The "move a hair and they would touch" line is the best evidence against my opinion, though. And perhaps Ozy will be right in the end. In any event, a good theory to think about.
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-08
**I am not sold on the idea that Moridin is the answer to Min's viewing. I'm still of the opinion that LTT truly is in Rand's head and that he will die at the LB and Rand will live. I think LTT and Moridin will both die. **
I myself think that it is Moridin because Lews Therin is dead already. However he is in Rand's head (I believe his soul is in their) I don't think he can physically die there unless he takes on a physical form.
Also, in KoD, we hear Semirhage tell everyone that Rand is hearing VOICES, and comments on how it is even worse when the VOICES are real. Unless LTT takes on a body, I don't think he can really die.
brother of Battles: 2005-11-08
Well, try this on for size. What if when Rand's and Moridin's Balefire connected, so did their "life strings" is the pattern? Or to a lesser extect, what if the pattern started to weave they're threads together? Taking two string and twisting them around so they become one.
This explaination could also explain why Moridin doesn't want anyone to kill Rand, Because he doesn't know yet what would happen to himself if something were to happen to Rand.
Also, When Moridin was thinking to himself over the "Fisher Game," he says the best way to win is by controlling the Fisher. The connecting threads could very well be the way Moridin is trying to control Rand.
Also, as a side note. Does anyone know what would happen to someone who is holding the True Power, then goes to draw on the One Power? This is just a wild shot in the dark, but couldn't that explain why Rand always has to fight off the dizzyness when he embrasses the source? If Rand and Moridin are merging in some way, and Moridin is holding onto the TP, then when Rand goes to embrace the OP *BAM* dizzyness. Just a thought...
JakOShadows: 2005-11-09
Brother of Battles:
Interesting thought, but I don't necessarily think it means that they can become one person. They are still two different threads. They may be able to sense each other a ton better for that reason, but the fact is we've never seen threads merge like that except where a deity has interevened(ie. the Dark One). And since that didn't happen, it doesn't seem likely they'll merge. But that's a very good explanation for what metaphysically happened with their threads. And plus, the DO could ressurect him, so it shouldn't be like he completely disappears if Rand is killed. It seems more based off his strategy. And actually, didn't that order stand before CoS. Just a few ideas to consider there. I like the principle though.
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-09
brother of battles:
Great idea. I like it alot. It does seem to make alot of sense, as I don't think two people's balefire have ever touched before, so it could have some never before seen effects. If you really think about it, what would happen if two objects that's sole purpose is burn things out of the pattern (balefire) - and can burn out basically anything - touched? It seems a very confusing thought and will probably plays a large part in the last book.
JakOShadows:
Even if the Dark One could ressurect Moridin again, I sort of have a hunch that under the circumstances of the threads twining around each other (Rand's and Moridin's) I think it would be more difficult for the Dark One. As well, if this balefire-touch/link is the first time that has ever happened, then maybe Moridin thinks that it could have some unknown side effect. He doesn't like not knowing things, as is said in KoD.
High Lord Calvin: 2005-11-09
I've always imagined the pattern as this long tapestry where whenever anyone interacts with another person, their threads intertwine. If you look at the threads of a married couple or group of very good friends you'll see them intertwine often.
Moridin and Rand's threads do this as well. I believe whoever mentioned (my apologies) their threads being weakened by wear (balefire inter-section) had the right idea.
I really think that are both dying now and that eventually (Last Battle?) they will have no choice but to merge souls (with some private contest of wills to determine who gets to "hijack the thread") ;D
evilbeaver: 2005-11-10
I doubt they would ever physically merge, especially since the last battle is going to be the 2 of them duking it out before Rand goes on to reseal the prison.
However, Brother of Battles, thats an interesting point on the OP/TP mixing to cause the sickness...
Bayle: 2005-11-18
"This explaination could also explain why Moridin doesn't want anyone to kill Rand, Because he doesn't know yet what would happen to himself if something were to happen to Rand."
I love your idea here Brother of Battles, but I don't think this is why Moridin doesn't want Rand dead. He says that he doesn't want Rand to get himself killed yet because it would disrupt too many plans that have already been set. I think it has to do with the DO's order to let the Lord of Chaos rule... But I do agree, Moridin is just as shocked by the strange new connection as Rand is, and probably has new reasons to keep him alive, subsequently.
Traveller: 2005-11-19
"So… they’re merging, and one dies."
This reminds me alot of the stuff from the dark prophecy at the beginning of TGH where it says that Isam and Luc will battle in the high passes, one will live, one will die, then now they are salyer and they have merged. I thought, HEY! Maybe they merged balefire, but I then remembered that it has been made clear by Jordan that Slayer can't channel, so that ends that. However, I wonder if this could help anyone with the whole Rand Moridin thing. maybe the DO likes to do this on purpose and make goodies merge with baddies in order to...make them bad?
Anyway, I thought it might be worth mentioning because of the similarities.
JennSedai: 2005-11-19
Coexist, likely. We have seen it before in Isam/Luc and we really don't have much detail about how that all works either. There is an "almost" reminiscence to the original Star Trek episode with Lazarus. The combo of Luc/Isam corresponding to Rand/Lan is kinda freaky. There are personality extremes seen under duress common in all the shirt-tail relatives as well (Rand, Galad, Gawain, Lan). Not sure where it is leading, but...
Lord of the Dawn: 2005-11-20
Interesting thoughts all of this... I think we've got a new theory in the making here... We should keep thinking further on these thoughts.
cwarner62: 2005-11-20
Nice to see that someone else has come to the same conclusion. I've been thinking for the past three books that Rand and Moridin would be the ones to merge, and even moreso since PoD. Why? Because when Rand and Moridin merge, it will give Rand control over Lanfear's mindtrap. As we know from her POV, she is now furious with Rand and no longer trying to team up with him to overthrow the DO, but with control of her mindtrap, Rand can force her to help him. Which leads into my theory that Lanfear will be the key to sealing the Bore.
JakOShadows: 2005-11-27
cwarner:
I envy your creativeness there;). Because all of those are a stretch and your using them to support the fact that Moridin and Rand will merge so strongly like Luc and Isam, which is also a stretch. I really don't see that happening. In KoD, it shows him feeling him and almost being able to touch, but he is not becoming a part of him. That would be a far different feel. He just has a heightened sense of him. And as to why he actually sees him at that moment, he thinks of exactly where Moridin is, the Ansaline Gardens. (I took my books home this weekend so I don't have the quote, sorry) So I think that is what triggers him seeing Moridin. He hasn't been able to even feel Moridin doing something so that implies no control or future control over him, he only feels like he can touch him which is more of a sensory connotation.
vergere6: 2005-12-08
Hi. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but Nynaeve says "there's something wrong with your eyes" and Rand definitely mentions black flecks in his vision, not to mention viewing everything as if through a haze. This sounds an awful lot like Saa and the True Power to me. I think the balefire crossing made some sort of connection between saidin and the TP, at least for Rand. This could mean that Rand now has a connection to the DO through Moridin. Ok, that was farfetched, but still..., the saa do not lie!
Anubis: 2005-12-11
**Hi. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but Nynaeve says "there's something wrong with your eyes" and Rand definitely mentions black flecks in his vision, not to mention viewing everything as if through a haze. This sounds an awful lot like Saa and the True Power to me. I think the balefire crossing made some sort of connection between saidin and the TP, at least for Rand. This could mean that Rand now has a connection to the DO through Moridin. Ok, that was farfetched, but still..., the saa do not lie!**
You arent exactly the first person to think of this and your wrong. Saa do not obscure vision, therefore they are just Rand hit his head really hard flecks which have been seen before in the WoT.
vergere6: 2005-12-15
Actually, yeah, i changed my mind. Could this have something to do with Egwene's vision of Rand with a blindfold, and wearing a torn coat or something?
Apart from that, about LTT and Rand, here's an idea:Rand is slowly becoming the Dragon Reborn, fulfilling prophesy after prophesy at various stages of the process. But, maybe Rand is resisting that change,stubborn as he is. LTT might BE that change.
"To live, you must die" might mean that for the Dragon to live, Rand has to die and LTT has to take over completely.
LTT might act mad, but that probably is because from his POV, Rand is the intruder, a mad person sharing his head.
What do you think?
JakOShadows: 2005-12-16
vergere6:
I would have agreed with you before KoD about LTT not being crazy, but when he tried to kill himself that put the nail in the coffin I think. And I also think it is dangerous to think of LTT as a person, because that really changes how they can both be in Rand's head. A personality is the best way to describe it in my opinion, and they are both the same person, but have different personalities based on their different memories and events that happened at separate times. So Rand can't become LTT, he can come to terms with the memories and that may help, but they are still the same person.
Darkelve: 2005-12-19
@cwarner
As I posted in another theory (something to do with the tower of Ghenji), min had a vision that "what good to tell him that he would almost certainly loose TG without a woman dead and gone" (or something like that).
I suggested there, that this woman is in fact Cyndane: dead as we know, and 'gone' since she is Cyndane now, not Lanfear. Cyndane/Lanfear was there at the sealing of the bore. She must *know* how they tried and how/why it failed.
This *could* tie in nicely with the mindtrap. Then again, maybe it won't.
Maciah: 2005-12-22
I´m not necessarily fond of this theory and it has probably been mentioned somewhere else, but if Rand and Moradin were to have another encounter where they are mixing balefire and that was somehow to cause the two to merge with Moradin seeming to be on top this would cause people to believe Rand to be dead. If after that Alavin, who is quite strong in the power, was to hit Moradin with a strong enough dose of balefire to destroy his thread to a point before they merged, wouldn´t this seem to fulfill a number of prerequisites? The merging of the two. Rand needing to die in order to live. Alivia killing Rand.
I´m leary on the overuse of balefire as a means to undo all wrongs, so everyone please feel free to abuse this theory as much as possible. And as a newcomer, my apologies if this has already been covered.
jason wolfbrother: 2005-12-23
not sure if this has been clarified enough or not but Mat is not a case of a merging of personalities.
Rather he is an integration of multiple memories with his own.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 3 - Pale Shadows
Scrubbing a hand through his hair, Mat sat down heavily on the, coping. The memories that had once cluttered his head like raisins in a cake now blended with his own. In one part of his mind he knew he had been born in the Two Rivers twenty years before, but he could remember clearly leading the flanking attack that turned the Trollocs at Maighande, and dancing in the court of Tarmandewin, and a hundred other things, a thousand. Mostly battles. He remembered dying more times than he wanted to think of. No seams between lives anymore; he could not tell his memories from the others unless he concentrated.**
Completely integrated with his own. seamless integration. He has to try to separate them from his own. They are now his own memories. Not other personalites but the memories. and they are his now. Mat's. Not the people that lived them, but Mat.
2nd thing. Mat spoke the Old Tongue fluently before the Rhuidean doorway.
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 18 - Healing
Mat's eyes opened, and he glared at the women standing around him. "Mia ayende, Aes Sedai! Caballein mirain ye! Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai miaain ye! Mia ayende!" And he began to scream, a roar of rage that went on and on, till Egwene wondered that he had breath left in him.**
not exactly isolated phrases and words.
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 18 - Healing
For a moment the Amyrlin seemed to consider, perhaps what to say, perhaps whether to say anything. "For a time," she said finally, "I believe the past and the present were one. He was there, and He was here, and He knew who we were. He commanded us to release him." She paused again. " 'I am a free man, Aes Sedai. I am no Aes Sedai meat.' That is what He said."**
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 19 - Awakening
Mat's hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead. "Los Valdar Cuebiyari, " he muttered. he was almost sure he knew what it meant - "Forward the Heart Guard," or maybe "The Heart Guard will advance" - but that could not be. Moiraine had told him a few words of the Old Tongue, and those were all he knew of it. The rest might as well be magpie chatter.**
He does read and understand the Old Tongue. It is only after Rhuidean that he is consciously aware of it. And not until much later, LoC, CoS or PoD that he actually controls it consciously, i.e. not spurting out sentences or speeches completely in the Old Tongue.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance
"Who is Comadrin?" Talmanes asked after a moment, and Mat had to gather himself to answer. "A general. Dead a long time. I read his book once." He remembered reading it, anyway, more than once; he doubted a copy existed anywhere now. For that matter, he remembered meeting Comadrin, after losing a battle to him some six hundred years before Artur Hawkwing. Those memories did creep up on him. At least he had not delivered that little speech in the Old Tongue; he usually managed to avoid that sort of thing now.**
Rand and Moridin's upcoming Merger is a completely separate case. Both Moridin and Rand are alive ;), and aware of each other. Mat integrated the memories with his own. there was no merger. It was one absorbing, organizing, and utilizing the memories for one's benefit.
A merger is usually for mutual benefit.
mellander: 2005-12-27
...personality. Rand won’t be seeing the things LTT sees, because LTT doesn’t see anything at all...
this is the only real flaw i see in your theory. i recall in Book 11 during the Trolloc attack Lews Therin freaking out because he couldn't see his hands, and therefore couldn't fully use the One Power. Rand lifted his hands before his eyes and Lews took over creating the absolutely devastating assault on the Trolloc mass.
otherwise i think that Mori/Rand merging is a much more accurate read on Min's original viewing.
peace
Ozymandias: 2006-09-12
ummm... thats proof LTT can see, mellandor. He just doesn't yet have control of Rand's bodily functions, just his ability to use the Power. So LTT COULD see Rand's hands once he lifted them into view of the eyes LTT was lookking out of. Just as LTT could see where to aim his Arrows of Fire and Deathgates
Fourth Age Historian: 2008-08-21
I saw some of this here and at other sites, and first I was very reluctant to believe it as a possibility. But I'm on TSR in my current reading, and I have already seen some evidence for this. This theory opens up quite the can of worms. It could tie together many things into one event that seemed to need several more books to answer.
Given the merging in Rand's dreams, Min's viewing in ACOS, and the balefire thing...I think you're on to something here.
Also given that I believe LTT isn't real (but that the memories are, and LTT is Rand's loony interpretation of how he gets them - and LTT's "the other one" showed up because Rand realized LTT would have to have similar memories of the First Age Dragon...but I digress)it seems a merging of Rand/Morridin is likely. I would be interested to see if Min recognizes Moridin if and when they meet.
Another bit of evidence could maybe be Egwene's dream in The Path of Daggers, Chapter 15 Stronger than Written Law, "Rand, wering diferent masks, until one of those faces was no longer a mask, but him."
Another tenuous connection could be the TFOH portion of the K. Cycle..."no hope this side of death." -death = Moridin?
So what could the results of this be? For one, Rand might have control of not just Lanfear's mindtrap, but those on ALL of whatever Forsaken remained alive. This would mean that really the only part of TLB that mattered was Rand vs. Moridin...and that everything else is needed just to get him there.
I'm thinking of a sort of Matrix-like thing here. Remember in TDR when Ishy tried to "take Rand's soul"? Perhaps he will try this again, but Rand's soul will be so strong that it will "overwrite" Ishy instead. Rand's body dies, but soon Ishy's soul is ejected from that body and Rand takes over.
The biggest problem with this is getting the rest of Randland to believe that Moridin is now Rand...unless the Herons and Dragons somehow go with him?
terez: 2008-09-08
My ideas on this have changed quite a bit since the last time I posted on this theory, but I won't get into details about that right now - I'll likely write a full theory of my own, rather than go into it all here. But I'd like to address Fourth Age Historian's post:
I believe LTT isn't real (but that the memories are, and LTT is Rand's loony interpretation of how he gets them - and LTT's "the other one" showed up because Rand realized LTT would have to have similar memories of the First Age Dragon...but I digress)it seems a merging of Rand/Morridin is likely. I would be interested to see if Min recognizes Moridin if and when they meet.
I agree with you that Lews Therin isn't "real", but the "other one" that Lews Therin refers to is obviously Moridin. Rand has been seeing flashes of his face since The Path of Daggers, but he didn't consciously recognize the face until Knife of Dreams. Yet, the comments by "Lews Therin" are interesting, showing not only that Rand recognized him from the beginning without consciously recognizing the fact, but also that he recognized that the True Power was used (hence Lews Therin calling the "other one" a "destroyer") - how else would he have known?.
I doubt that Moridin and Rand will actually merge. The wording of Min's viewings is important:
________________________________
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep
"They will serve you, each in her fashion, Rand," she said hurriedly. "I saw it." Sorilea would serve him? Suddenly Min wondered exactly what "in her fashion" meant. The words came with the knowing, but she did not always know what the words themselves meant. But they would serve; that much was plain.
________________________________
In Min's viewing, she specifically says that they "seemed to merge":
________________________________
TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 33 - A Bath
She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said, "There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and... " Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don’t know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I - Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."
________________________________
Also, keep in mind that Rand has to die. The Aelfinn have said it. The "Shadow at noon", and "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed, once for mourning, once for birth" - both imply that there will be a moment of temporary victory for the Shadow.
Another bit of evidence could maybe be Egwene's dream in The Path of Daggers, Chapter 15 Stronger than Written Law, "Rand, wering diferent masks, until one of those faces was no longer a mask, but him."
But Rand isn't really wearing Moridin as a mask, is he? This might refer to Rand's wearing the Dragon Reborn mask for the people he conquered, and then eventually becoming that person, leaving the shepherd far behind. It might refer to Lews Therin, certainly. But Moridin? I don't see it...
Another tenuous connection could be the TFOH portion of the K. Cycle..."no hope this side of death." -death = Moridin?
I would say that's VERY tenuous, considering that death is used so often in the prophecies. Is Moridin Rand's horse?
So what could the results of this be? For one, Rand might have control of not just Lanfear's mindtrap, but those on ALL of whatever Forsaken remained alive. This would mean that really the only part of TLB that mattered was Rand vs. Moridin...and that everything else is needed just to get him there.
I'm thinking of a sort of Matrix-like thing here. Remember in TDR when Ishy tried to "take Rand's soul"? Perhaps he will try this again, but Rand's soul will be so strong that it will "overwrite" Ishy instead. Rand's body dies, but soon Ishy's soul is ejected from that body and Rand takes over.
That doesn't exactly fulfill the prophecies that say Rand will die, does it? If Rand's body dies but not his soul, then he didn't actually die.
Ozymandias: 2008-09-10
________________________________
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep
"They will serve you, each in her fashion, Rand," she said hurriedly. "I saw it." Sorilea would serve him? Suddenly Min wondered exactly what "in her fashion" meant. The words came with the knowing, but she did not always know what the words themselves meant. But they would serve; that much was plain.
________________________________
In Min's viewing, she specifically says that they "seemed to merge":
_________________________________________________
Terez, if your going to nitpick over the wording, which is fine, you have to admit that the language used in discussing Rand's connection in Moridin is very similar.
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon
If you don't know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were . . . touching . . . the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair's breadth, in any direction. to touch him again. I think he saw my face, too.
The entire passage is highly metaphorical, just as the prophecy is. I highly doubt Rand and whoever the other person is physically fuse together, its going to be a mental or psychological phenomenon, and we have just as much evidence for this being Moridin, and as much justification in believing it, as we do for Lews Therin.
The very vagueness of the word "seemed" implies that there doesn't need to be a real merging of any kind, such as the reintegration of LTT would cause. Since it "seems" to Rand like he's within merging distance of Moridin, its obviously possible that this is who he's talking about.
Don't know if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me, but that needed to be pointed out.
Fourth Age Historian: 2008-09-15
Hmmm...I hadn't considered "Lews Therin" seeing Moridin as "the other one" but that makes a lot of sense...especially if we're right that Lews Therin isn't real. I do think he's as real as the memories Mat gets, and that Semirhage is telling the "truth" as that goes...but that the reason Rand sees him as an entity rather than a flashback is his looniness.
And I was out on a limb on that "matrix" thing...that was more of a random thought at best.
As for the "death" thing...I remember now another circumstance about "death" as a pun on Moridin. RJ was asked about it at an interview and seemed appalled...so I doubt he'd have used the same pun somewhere else.
terez: 2008-09-21
It's obvious that Min's viewing is talking about Rand and Moridin (I've pointed out the similarity between the wording of her viewing and Rand's description of the Moridin experience several times) - it's also obvious that they won't actually merge, because of the qualifier "seemed".
Lorcan: 2010-07-06
I thing Moridin will turn against the dark one in the end and using the one power he'l inprison him again, but unlike the other time there cannot be a taint as the prison is made from the dark ones own power. moridin will dye doing this and could the 'blood of the dragon spilling on the rocks' be talking about moridins as his blood is related to Rand?through being cousins?
terez: 2010-07-08
Moridin and Rand are not related by blood at all. If Rand has a cousin, that would probably be Perival, High Seat of House Mantear in Andor (Rand's mother was Tigraine Mantear, who was the Daughter-Heir of Andor before she went to the Waste). Galad is his half-brother, and Luc is his uncle. Isam is Lan's cousin.