TT Never
by BrainFireBob: 2006-07-25 | 1.86 out of 10 (14 votes)
Bear with me before judgement, please (don't judge off the theory title).
This has been a theory of mine for years, and considering the ongoing popularity of "are there real voices in Rand's head," think I should toss it out.
Allright, from the 'gars, we know that death in part consists of losing memory/a memory wipe.
Ergo, the "immortality" provided by the Dark One is a matter of identity continuity- we should all be on the same page here.
Do we have other instances of memory coming not from this lifetime, baring interference (ie, the Finns?)
Yes, the Old Blood. Which is seen as quasi-dangerous. But what is it?
One possibility stems from the nature of the pool of souls. The Pattern spins out souls when they're appropriate to the need.
What happens when you have a de facto clone pop up? Not at the same time, certainly, but two thousand years later, or three?
The Pattern has already matched that body up to a particular soul before, will it do so again? Will that person's soul, "recognizing" the body, be able in conditions of stress to "recall" powerful memories of the previous life? Or perhaps that body can "draw" its soul back to it before the soul is a complete blank slate again?
As a sidenote, and maybe it should be its own theory, I believe this fits most clearly Jordan's Old Blood and reincarnation mechanism. I think this is why the Two Rivers people are considered so unique- since their gene pool is limited, and closed, they are re-creating in their children identical bodies to their ancestor's, and those souls are being called/chosen by the pattern to inhabit that flesh again. Hence the memories just below the surface.
Would this be sufficient to explain the detail of memory Rand is receiving from Lews Therin? No. Would it explain knowledge, like Mierin's name, which he had before Rhuidean? No.
Well, what else can we draw on?
Lews Therin did . .something . .to anger Ishamael when he created Dragonmount. Ishamael addressed the mountain as if something of Lews Therin could hear him. Since Lews Therin's family was shattered, it would be very difficult to have a body with enough in common to re-create Lews.
The mountain, especially in New Spring, is described as "waiting."
Lews Therin "killed" himself deciding he deserved the ultimate punishment.
The Heroes of the Horn, who call each other by their most recent names, recognize, and address, Rand as Lews Therin. Yet the Dragon has other incarnations- but the Heroes do not recognize Rand as an independent one.
The body of baby Rand was blue with cold- this is normally a sign of death.
Lews Therin is insane in Rand's head- possibly a displacement mechanism, possibly something else, since as far as we know, he "died" sane.
All of Lews Therin's knowledge seems to be preserved in Rand. This does not fit a soul that has in fact found death.
The Heroes- whose souls are not wiped- still have no memory when they are incarnated.
The essential idea I had was that Lews Therin tried to condemn himself to a death without reincarnation. Remember the Dark One craved him as a servant, and if he refused, the Pattern might claim him.
Rand is powerful in Spirit- this means Lews Therin was as well.
Lews Therin, I think, may have sealed his soul in Dragonmount, to prevent his own reincarnation. I also would postulate this had the effect of a sensory deprivation chamber, where he was trapped with his memories. So yes, after three thousand years of brooding on killing his beloved wife, he would once again be rather nutters.
Since in sensory deprivation, hallucination is common, I believe we even have an explanation of Lews Therin's reactions to Rand and Rand's life- to him, it may seem yet another hallucination, and therefore not fully real:
"In your head? No! I am Lews Therin Telamon, I am MEEEEEeeeee"
Lews Therin's soul may have migrated out of he mountain into a newborn body, awaiting a soul, that "matched" it- if Rand had been born anywhere else, he would have been a stillbirth, born empty of the soul that matched the characteristics of the body. To Lews, what's the difference? He's hallucinating, and since he knows he's not a baby, he may figure it's another hallucination- or he may ignore them by this time or have begun to "sleep."
The thing is, if Lews/Rand realize/communicate this, it provides a method for self-forgiveness: Hasn't Lews paid enough? Three THOUSAND years of isolation?
It explains his memory being complete, his insanity, his terror at being "caged"- this may go deeper than the episode in the box.
It also explains his "Rebirth." He's not being reincarnated, he's being born a second time. This would require the identity to go through birth twice- not being reincarnated, not being transmigrated, but being BORN twice. And to remain fully the same man, the identity had to be protected from attrition.
It would also fit the justice complex both Rand and Lews Therin evince.
An interesting potential tie-in is the Amayar believing the Time of Illusions is at an end- if there was any way they would use the cleansing to mark Rand and Lews merging.
Since the Power, like any addictive drug, makes you feel more alive, it evens makes sense for Lews to begin "believing" in the Rand hallucination when he recognizes the feel of the Power in him. It makes the hallucination too real.
There is more to this idea, but at the moment that's what I can recall offhand. Thoughts, comments, ideas?
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1
Tamyrlin: 2006-12-10
Well, I haven't ever seen this idea before, that the soul of the Dragon didn't return to the soul pool. If I understand correctly, in essence, you believe that LTT "haunted" Dragonmount until inhabiting the "dead" body of this baby that was born on Dragonmount. I'm not sure why this complication would be necessary, which I don't believe it is. How would it be that by entering the body, this soul would have lost its power of self-recognition? It's been a while BFB, since you posted this theory, but I am wondering if you have developed the idea any further, because it seems quite unnecessary to explain how crazy the voice of LTT appears. P.S. - A note to Callandor, I need to post your theory in the chronicles which would be an appropriate response. :)
2
BrainFireBob: 2006-12-10
Are you familiar with what happens in sensory deprivation, Tamyrlin? I don't see it as being an unnecessary complication.
LTT removed his soul from the pool of souls. In order for it to be "accessed," the Wheel would need to provide a body "compatible" with the soul in a manner such that the soul would transfer into it. Hence the prophecy about the Dragon being reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount- a flatout necessity, since there was no other way for the soul to be not just born, but RE-born.
3
Tamyrlin: 2006-12-10
Hey BFB, it's like you knew I was posting your theory today! :)
But how is it that this soul completely loses all recognition of who it is...until it begins to talk to itself seventeen years later? For the soul to have inhabited the body, wouldn't it have to have been an active decision by the soul, if the soul were no longer being controlled by the Wheel? So, upon entering the body, we would have to believe it lost it's personality, which didn't happen to the other famous example of a disemodied soul taking over a body (Mordeth).
No - don't know anything about sensory deprivation.
4
BrainFireBob: 2006-12-10
Sufficient sensory deprivation, over a long period of time, results in catatonia.
In short, I'm arguing Lews Therin was there, but catatonic until Rand started channelling.
Actually, that's completely awesome, I just happened to swing by- for the first time in a week- and the timing was dead-on perfect.
5
Callandor: 2006-12-10
**All of Lews Therin's knowledge seems to be preserved in Rand. This does not fit a soul that has in fact found death.**
No, it is not. For example, Lews Therin would obviously be able to speak the Old Tongue fluently. Rand cannot. He's had tidbits come into his head, and he had one incident where he seemed to translate a single word -- but there is no inherent knowledge to Rand like his knowledge of english or of writing. It's only pieces.
**Lews Therin, I think, may have sealed his soul in Dragonmount, to prevent his own reincarnation. I also would postulate this had the effect of a sensory deprivation chamber, where he was trapped with his memories. So yes, after three thousand years of brooding on killing his beloved wife, he would once again be rather nutters.**
Death is death in Randland. You die, you await rebirth by the Wheel. The only difference is if you're going to be transmigrated, which Lews Therin clearly was not.
**Lews Therin's soul may have migrated out of he mountain into a newborn body, awaiting a soul, that "matched" it- if Rand had been born anywhere else, he would have been a stillbirth, born empty of the soul that matched the characteristics of the body. To Lews, what's the difference? He's hallucinating, and since he knows he's not a baby, he may figure it's another hallucination- or he may ignore them by this time or have begun to "sleep."**
This doesn't fit with what we know. A soul enters into the body when the body is firt capable of sustaining life:
**H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ: Hmm... I’d have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.**
So, when Rand was still developing in Tigraine, his soul was in his body. So, assuming that this idea of Lews Therin storing his soul is true (and it's not acording to everything we know of how this world works), Rand would have two souls in his body: his own original, and Lews Therin's. That has been flatly revoked by Jordan.
**It also explains his "Rebirth." He's not being reincarnated, he's being born a second time.**
No, he's not being born at all. A person is "born" when their soul enters into a thread -- as per the quote above, that happens when they're a fetus. Hence if this is what happened to Lews Therin, it doesn't make any sense.
As well, if this truly happened, Rand wouldn't be Rand. It'd be Lews Therin in a baby. So, Rand would never develop to be who he is. As Lanfear says, the only thing similar between Rand and Lews Therin is their height. Hell, even Lews Therin chimes in on this:
**TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER 20 - The Golden Crane
I need no reminders, Lews Therin growled.
I'm not you, Rand thought. I have to harden myself. "Logain, get rid of these bloody things!" he said aloud.
You're harder than I ever was, Lews Therin said. Suddenly he giggled. If you're not me, then who are you?**
So, what's the explanation here?
**P.S. - A note to Callandor, I need to post your theory in the chronicles which would be an appropriate response.**
Damn right you do! :p
6
JakOShadows: 2006-12-10
It does seem possible, and it would be another good explanation for the memories. But it also seems like a complex weaving for him to execute with Ishmael being right there, not to mention having to fight the taint of saidin. It just seems a bit far fetched. But all the symptoms and explanations seem to fit in a wierd kind of way. And it might also make the prophecies fit his situation too, depending on how they are taken. But then again, you can make the prophecies of dragon fit almost any situation with enough twisting of the details. It's a really creative answer though, so good work thinking outside of the box.
7
seanchanimperialblood: 2006-12-10
Alright, I have to admit, it has been a long time since I have read the books. Wow, so long that I really don't even remember the names of the people I am about to talk about, so try to bear with me and I am really sorry.
I actually like this theory, but I am kind of confused. Are you saying that Lews Therin did something with the power to where he wouldn't die? Or are you saying that since he intentionally took all of the One Power in him and did this to himself deliberately that this is why the mountain is "waiting"? I would like to know that first before I go on with my real question, lol.
8
terez: 2006-12-11
**P.S. - A note to Callandor, I need to post your theory in the chronicles which would be an appropriate response.**
Damn right you do! :p
_____________
Yup, it would be nice if you put all of the overly long ones there. And the other ones, too, of course. :)
By the way, this idea isn't entirely original. ;) Though the presentation was different for each case.
9
vardene: 2006-12-11
If the effect of what LTT did at DM was to seal his soul within it for three thousand years, then his soul would still be in existence over the timeframe of three thousand years. i have no doubt ishy would have located his soul long before this if it was available anywhere in the world. HIs light(or star) would still be present in that space btw TAR and the waking world.The only possibilty i see is that LTT was not available at all until a time in the future when the OP linked him to baby rand. the link does the same thingt it did for birgitte-saved the baby's life. That's my take.
10
BrainFireBob: 2006-12-11
Short version: Yes, I'm proposing he didn't "die" die- his body was destroyed, but he trapped his soul in the pattern in an attempt to deny himself the cleansing of death/reincarnation- he does believe he deserves permanent death for himself, after all.
I've never been fully satisfied with the Taint "eroding the barriers between lives" theory for two primary reasons, one of which is in a pending theory, the other of which is that Heroes are fully conscious of all their lives when dead- if the barrier degraded, Rand would have memories of ALL his incarnations coming through.
No, that doesn't fit the evidence. Rand has connections to the memory set of Lews Therin alone, and there has been one and only one time in the Pattern that soul had access to only LTT's memories, and that's LTT's lifetime.
So, one starts looking: Is there any way that the LTT consciousness could have been preserved independently of its prior incarnations- which would mean without dying? Yes. If LTT somehow tried to trap his soul and deny himself reincarnation as the ultimate, "permanent" punishment for what he did, something quite consistent with the attitudes we've seen from him, then we have a neat explanation of the fact Rand's memories/absorbed attitudes reach only back to the Age of Legends lifetime.
Whether or not the LTT "voice" began as a construct, there's a point of sufficiency for the personality to re-exert itself as an independent force- enough memories exist for the personality to actually have its own existence.
11
BrainFireBob: 2006-12-11
Going to be a sloppy poster and add another point.
RJ made the comment, and I'm sure Callandor can provide the original, that Mat and Birgitte are the best examples of memories of past lives.
Many of the "Mat is Aemon/Hereditary Manetheren Guy of Stuffiness" theories claim this quote.
My personal interpretation has been that in both cases, the memories are just below conscious cognition- the mind thinks they're familiar, but can't quite place them. Instincts associated with those memories might surface under stress, like Mat's battlecry.
Why is Birgitte a good example of this? Since her current incarnation, she's losing her memories. The Pattern, her soul, the Wheel, some mechanism is stripping her access to them. The Wheel does not allow new incarnations access to their prior memories in a deliberate manner.
I personally have thought the Old Blood of Mat and Birgitte's past lives were supposed to stand in contrast to Rand's situation, much as Mat's "recorded" memories are NOT fading, versus his native, Old Blood memories.
12
sogoloth: 2006-12-12
Hey Callandor just wondering how this quote from you explains Fain...
*** Death is death in Randland. You die, you await rebirth by the Wheel. The only difference is if you're going to be transmigrated, which Lews Therin clearly was not. ***
I know what you're saying about the normal cycle of death and rebirth, but Fain seems to be an example of this process being side-stepped. Transmigration is a procees induced by the DO (at least with what we've seen so far), but there is no apparent outside intervention on behalf of Fain. So I'm wondering how we can consider the "natural" process of rebirth to be an unbreakable law of RJ's world given Fain's existence.
That said I disagree with this theory. I think Tam has it, it seems unnecessary and complicated for what has been explained easily through what we already know about the mechanics of the WoT.
13
PillowFriends: 2006-12-12
BFB,
This is a very interesting and imaginative idea. Good job. However, I don’t see that there is any actual evidence available to support it.
***I've never been fully satisfied with the Taint "eroding the barriers between lives" theory …***
I am with you on this one!
14
Catalyst: 2006-12-15
Just to point out: after Lews Therin got partially sane again, he simply overdrew on saidin. For a very short instant he held that much power and struck with a lightning where he stood.
And what's this timer at the top of the page? I hope it is not the EXACT day when "A Memory Of Light" will be released. It's too long to wait.
15
Callandor: 2006-12-15
**I've never been fully satisfied with the Taint "eroding the barriers between lives" theory for two primary reasons, one of which is in a pending theory, the other of which is that Heroes are fully conscious of all their lives when dead- if the barrier degraded, Rand would have memories of ALL his incarnations coming through.**
No, he wouldn't. In tel'aran'rhiod, Heroes are essentially just their souls incarnate and aware of all their lives as distinct books and sections. The key part is that they're sectioned off. As Birgitte explains about Cain and herself, he would be reborn without any knowledge of who or what he is, just like she was in the Age of Legends. Since souls store the past incarnations, there must be something blocking this so that a soul can be reborn with a clean slate (a la, Jordan's answer that a rebirth of soul does not mean a rebirth of personalities).
There must be a barrier. More so, there must be a barrier blocking off each incarnation, since the lives are separate and distinct.
Rand would not have access to all past lives if his barrier is degrading; he would have access to just Lews Therins, unless enough taint broke down the barrier between Lews Therin's life and that of his previous incarnation (the 1st Age Dragon). The obvious answer to that is that it hasn't occured.
This is entirely consistant with the Heroes, how they work, Rand, and it doesn't involve the preassumption of a magical cure-all weave of sealing your soul to a place when you're simply trying to kill yourself.
**Why is Birgitte a good example of this? Since her current incarnation, she's losing her memories. The Pattern, her soul, the Wheel, some mechanism is stripping her access to them. The Wheel does not allow new incarnations access to their prior memories in a deliberate manner.**
The Wheel does not allow the access of prior incarnations to those that are reborn, yes. That's why people develop to be who they are, and are born with a clean slate.
But this doesn't apply to Birgitte. She wasn't truly "born" in the sense that is normal: the Wheel did spin out her soul into that of a newborn, or place a barrier. Birgitte's case isn't one of a barrier "growing" or anything -- much like her soul has lives that grow dimmer way far back, her own life can have a hypothetical "bandwith" limitation. There's only room for so many memories (in her case, roughly 5 or 6 incarnations). Because she is still living, and still making yet more memories, it truly is a case of learning a new thing pushes out something you've already learned -- she makes new memories, she's out of space, so her older ones are gone to make room.
**I know what you're saying about the normal cycle of death and rebirth, but Fain seems to be an example of this process being side-stepped. Transmigration is a procees induced by the DO (at least with what we've seen so far), but there is no apparent outside intervention on behalf of Fain. So I'm wondering how we can consider the "natural" process of rebirth to be an unbreakable law of RJ's world given Fain's existence.**
Fain is not a case of breaking this theory -- his soul was reborn into his body when he was a fetus like anyone else in the world.
Mordeth's soul is the one that seems to be another exception, though it's so vague about it that we really can't say. The best we can do is that he might be an actual similar case of this in that his soul was trapped by the Shadar Logoth evil. No idea how this happened or why other than that it did and that's the vague reason for it.
*****I've never been fully satisfied with the Taint "eroding the barriers between lives" theory …***
I am with you on this one!**
Care to explain why?
**And what's this timer at the top of the page? I hope it is not the EXACT day when "A Memory Of Light" will be released. It's too long to wait.**
It's the timer to Tam's estimated day of when A Memory of Light will be released. It's quite arbitrary at this stage, but it's a usual fixture.
16
Catalyst: 2006-12-20
Has anyone considered the chance that the Creator got his hand into the events? If the soul of the Dragon was the main thread in the Pattern, the one who keeps the balance between the two sides, then the Wheel decides whether he serves the Light or the Shadow. The Fisher of that strange game Moridin plays.
Yes, saidin and saidar are the powers that make the Wheel turn, but the Dark One began playing the game in a way the Creator doesn't like. Shai'tan was partly freed, so he can touch the Pattern and the Wheel more directly, even the powers that make it turn. He strikes saidin, the Wheel begins to turn unsteadily for the male half is damaged. Even after saidin was cleansed... or healed?... maybe it is not enough. The Wheel will keep rocking unsteadily until it breaks. The question is not whether it will be broken - the question is who will recreate it. Time will stop for some time... bullshit. Rand using the Choedan Kal will somehow step out of time and using saidin and saidar will build a new Wheel, he will place the knotted end of the Pattern in the Wheel and turn it. Maybe the Creator will pay enough mind to keep the Dark One from interfering and life will keep on.
Another theory: A Memory Of Light will be read by all of us, we will gape with our mouths open at the pages and say "Holy sh*t, I never thought of THAT!" and hail the name Robert Jordan.
I hope I will live at least until I read it.
17
Callandor: 2006-12-24
**Has anyone considered the chance that the Creator got his hand into the events?**
The Creator doesn't intervene. Ever.
** Shai'tan was partly freed, so he can touch the Pattern and the Wheel more directly, even the powers that make it turn. He strikes saidin, the Wheel begins to turn unsteadily for the male half is damaged.**
You're going to have to explain how you came to that, since nothing of that sort is referenced anywhere in the series.
The attraction and repulsion between saidin and saidar is what drives the Wheel. They still do that, even when saidin was tainted.
**Rand using the Choedan Kal will somehow step out of time and using saidin and saidar will build a new Wheel, he will place the knotted end of the Pattern in the Wheel and turn it.**
Rand is a man, trapped within the confines of the Pattern, and the control of the Wheel. He's not the Creator.
18
Anubis: 2006-12-26
**The Creator doesn't intervene. Ever.**
We know this because He supposedly told us, which is funny because the whole thing is an oxymoron. Even if true it only means that the Creator only intervenes enough to inform people that he will not intervene.
19
Catalyst: 2006-12-28
That happens when you theoritate drunk. I remembered something - only saidin was tainted, right? If Shai'tan was free enough, he would taint saidar as well. While saidin is a ravaging iced firestorm ocean, destructive even when you create with it, the taint was never able to drive a man mad immediately because of the way you control it - you have to fight it. And if saidar was tainted, any woman would go mad immediately, because you have to surrender to it.
At the cleansing of saidin we all understood how much of the taint was held on saidin - enough to cover Shadar Logoth. We also know that Lews Therin and the Companions used damn much of saidin on that assault they landed in order to place the seals. Shai'tan counterstruck by slinging back the used saidin in a tainted weave (already so tainted that it made LT and the Companions mad immediately) and using their links to the Source, he tainted it. I suppose that if saidar was used on the strike, no channeler would have survived long enough to prevent the Dark One from breaking free at the last battle. Conclusion: women are the weakness of men :)
20
Callandor: 2006-12-29
**We know this because He supposedly told us, which is funny because the whole thing is an oxymoron.**
If you ignore Jordan telling us, yeah, sure then your oxymoron works. If that was the Creator. And if you subjectively construe it to be something that is "intervening" which in the end doesn't matter since it's Jordan's world, and his view of what constitutes "intervening." More likely, hey, I'd go with what Jordan has said.
21
Kubla Khan: 2006-12-30
Brainfirebob, didnt you say in your first post...
"The Heroes of the Horn, who call each other by their most recent names, recognize, and address, Rand as Lews Therin. Yet the Dragon has other incarnations- but the Heroes do not recognize Rand as an independent one."
If LTT never died, then how would he ever have met up with the heroes and even told them his name? They never met in life - after all they lived thousands of years apart.
22
JakOShadows: 2006-12-30
Catalyst:
the impression I got was that the DO was captured right as he put the taint on saidin. Or else the men going crazy wouldn't have been able to seal the bore. Unless that is the reason why he is not completely and properly sealed away either. But the seals did last for three thousand years, so I'm betting the first option is closer to the truth. Which means even if the women had also been there he would still be sealed. There would just be a longer period over which the breaking occured, more destruction, and probably a lot less channeling going on now.
23
Ozymandias: 2007-01-02
**Rand would not have access to all past lives if his barrier is degrading; he would have access to just Lews Therins, unless enough taint broke down the barrier between Lews Therin's life and that of his previous incarnation (the 1st Age Dragon). The obvious answer to that is that it hasn't occured. **
This is open to debate, Cal. For example, LTT is technically still just a soul, much like pre-reincarnation Heroes. LTT wasn't given a body, according to the barrier degradation theory; the taint just makes his memories accessible to his successor. So without reincarnation, we have no evidence of the (presumably) Wheel-induced memory wipe we see everyone have when Reborn. Somewhat analagous to Birgitte. Extenuating circumstances yanked her into the world and she now remembers much of her other lives. Same with LTT. So clearly, LTT SHOULD have access to those other memories. There is no reason for him not to. So maybe he would have access to the LTT in all turnings of the Wheel.
And as I side note, why does he even have to have so many incarnations? I know that Ishy says "weve fought a thousand times blah blah blah," but in all seriousness, is this possible? To me LTT seems like a task specific hero, he's around to repatch the prison on the DO. He wasn't particularly special but for that fact. But we also know that this is only the second time the prison has had to be sealed, since it was whole until the AoL. So maybe LTT is one of those rare "new" heroes who has just been accepted into the ranks of those to be reincarnated.
24
Catalyst: 2007-01-03
I have to ask Jordan about EXACTLY happened there. And I wonder what will be the manner of Shai'tan's defeat. Those who read "The Strike At Shayol Ghul" know what the two plans were suggesting. The first plan - the Choedan Kal, used together to create a barrier, Lews Therin's plan was the direct assault at Shayol Ghul, where the Seals are to be placed.
And what it will be like now? The female Choedan Kal was damaged or destroyed (KoD, CH 22), and where the access key for the male is, we don't know. Suggestions anyone? If there aren't any, then we'll let the High Council to decide after 1093 days 5 hours 12 minutes.
25
fish06: 2007-01-03
It can be argued that the creator does intervene to a degree
The Eye Of The World- Against the Shadow
"IT IS NOT HERE. It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate. I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE.
I interprete the capital letters to be the Creator speaking to Rand. After this dialogue Rand finds himself at Tarwin's Gap
26
BrainFireBob: 2007-01-04
Kubla-
Nope. Birgitte, among others, recalls fighting in the War of Shadow
27
Ozymandias: 2007-01-04
fish, somewhere on this site we had an extended debate about this topic, and while I don't remember the specifics, it was pretty clear that what you're referring to isn't the Creator. From a logical standpoint, why would the Creator intervene then? That wasn't a particularly history-changing event. Rand kills two channelers and the Creator helps out? Makes more sense for him to have helped in the War of Power or Sealing the DO or even just Cleansing the Taint. No, I don't think the Creator ever intervenes... he just doesn't care anymore.
28
Callandor: 2007-01-04
**LTT wasn't given a body, according to the barrier degradation theory; the taint just makes his memories accessible to his successor. So without reincarnation, we have no evidence of the (presumably) Wheel-induced memory wipe we see everyone have when Reborn.**
What the heck are you talking about? The barrier theory does not say that Lews Therin was never reincarnated. Not anything like that. The main point of it was that he was reincarnated -- in fact that's the major point of the series: Lews Therin was the Dragon; Rand is the Dragon Reborn.
The Dragon soul was spun out by the Wheel into Rand's body. It was reincarnated into Rand. Hence, it was given a barrier, just like any other soul in existance naturally is.
**Extenuating circumstances yanked her into the world and she now remembers much of her other lives. Same with LTT. So clearly, LTT SHOULD have access to those other memories. There is no reason for him not to. So maybe he would have access to the LTT in all turnings of the Wheel.**
All made useless by a very simple fact: no such thing occured. Lews Therin's soul was reborn, reincarnated, into Rand al'Thor. Hence, a barrier was placed, just like all the times before.
**And as I side note, why does he even have to have so many incarnations? I know that Ishy says "weve fought a thousand times blah blah blah," but in all seriousness, is this possible?**
Uh, YEAH. C'mon man, you know far better than this. The Dragon soul is a Hero of the Horn:
**Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"
A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.**
Just going off similar levels of Birgitte, even if the Dragon soul is needed 1/3rd the time, its been reborn many, many, many times.
Ignoring all that, Hawkwing himself attests to specifically what Ishamael said:
**TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you." His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. "Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmur ran through those behind him.**
Now Ishamael can be completely wrong or just right through deduction on whether those two specific souls are always in their roles all those times, but the key fact that the Dragon soul has been around a long time is unquestioned.
Even ignoring all that, one of the fundamental fact of this world is that reincarnation is real. Souls are reborn again and again, and the souls never are destroyed.
**I interprete the capital letters to be the Creator speaking to Rand. After this dialogue Rand finds himself at Tarwin's Gap**
1. It may have been the Creator, it may not have been. We don't know.
2. Even if it was the Creator, nothing he did can be seen truly as "intervening." Rand going to Tarwin's Gap (which occured before the voice, not after) is in line with what we see with the Eye having similar properties of tel'aran'rhiod -- and Rand wished to be "away" much like how Nynaeve and Elayne traveled tel'aran'rhiod looking for what was the Bowl of the Winds, and other similar signs that have occured in tel'aran'rhiod. The way Rand reached Ishamael is specifically remarked upon later by Rand in The Shadow Rising when he Skims to chase after Asmodean -- he specifically remembers that he's done this before, and he did: at Tarwin's Gap.
3. Again, Jordan has said the Creator does not intervene. Ever. It's a completely deist world: the Creator made the world, it's rules, etc. but beyond that he doesn't take an active role at all. Not a bit.
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fish06: 2007-01-05
Not to get off topic but, Ozy, I looked for a place where it was discussed but couldn't find it. Did anyone come to a conclusion on who or what the voice was? Or if anyone can tell me where the discussion is located it would help a lot.
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Catalyst: 2007-01-06
From the prologue of "Lord Of Chaos" it is known that Barid a.k.a. "Demandred" Bel Medar has a chat with the big boss of the bad guys. Shai'tan speaks with a voice to make your skull tremble. Also remember where Rand was at that point of the events; the place is VERY close to Shayol Ghul.
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Callandor: 2007-01-08
**Also remember where Rand was at that point of the events; the place is VERY close to Shayol Ghul.**
It occured in Tarwin's Gap -- which is a couple hundred miles from Shayol Ghul due to being a pass in the Mountains of Dhoom. It's closer to Shayol Ghul than say Tear, but it's still quite a distance.
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Davian93: 2007-01-09
****From the prologue of "Lord Of Chaos" it is known that Barid a.k.a. "Demandred" Bel Medar has a chat with the big boss of the bad guys. Shai'tan speaks with a voice to make your skull tremble. Also remember where Rand was at that point of the events; the place is VERY close to Shayol Ghul. ****
Davian confused. Rand was in Camelyn at the beginning of LoC and Demandred was at Shayol Ghul. Where is the connection?
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Catalyst: 2007-01-13
When Rand hears the voice, the book is TEOTW, when Demandred does, it is LoC; but the voice is the same. As someone noted earlier, the Creator does not interfere in the deeds of men.
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Davian93: 2007-01-14
****When Rand hears the voice, the book is TEOTW, when Demandred does, it is LoC; but the voice is the same. As someone noted earlier, the Creator does not interfere in the deeds of men. ****
Thanks for clearing that up for the dim-witted among us, me included. As Callandor stated earlier, Tarwin's Gap is a goodly distance from Shayol Ghul...too far for the DO to reach at the point of tEotW at least. That voice almost definitely has to be the Creator and it fits with him not interfering in the Battle between Rand and the DO.
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Catalyst: 2007-01-23
To the false Dragon: how the Hell are you sure it is the bloody Creator? Truly, Tarwin's gap is quite far from the Pit of Doom, but as Siuan Sanche pointed out, the Creator won't produce wonders to save humankind. Unless you mean that he interfered just to say he will not interfere?
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Callandor: 2007-01-25
**To the false Dragon: how the Hell are you sure it is the bloody Creator? Truly, Tarwin's gap is quite far from the Pit of Doom, but as Siuan Sanche pointed out, the Creator won't produce wonders to save humankind. Unless you mean that he interfered just to say he will not interfere?**
The candidate that makes sense at this time is that it was the Creator. We do not know if it was, but it makes the most sense.
As has been pointed out before, the Creator does not intervene. Either that means that it was not the Creator (whatever it truly was then), or that it actually was the Creator, but his actions do not constitute intervention under Jordan's definition. With what we know, the likelihood still points to the Creator.
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Ieyasu: 2007-01-27
callandor:
**Death is death in Randland. You die, you await rebirth by the Wheel. The only difference is if you're going to be transmigrated, which Lews Therin clearly was not. **
this isnt quite true.
there are differing 'levels' of death...
hero's of the horn dont die a normal death, and are aware of the real world... who can tell about nonhero afterlife, but at minimum there are atleast 2 differing afterlifes going on.
death isnt necessaryly death!
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Davian93: 2007-01-29
****To the false Dragon: how the Hell are you sure it is the bloody Creator? Truly, Tarwin's gap is quite far from the Pit of Doom, but as Siuan Sanche pointed out, the Creator won't produce wonders to save humankind. Unless you mean that he interfered just to say he will not interfere? ****
To the substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected, The only logical candidate for it to be is the Creator. It can't be the Dark One as all 7 Seals are still in place and it is too far from Shayol Ghul. It does not constitute as interference simply because the voice didn't actually do anything. All it did was let Rand know he was on his own and he would have to fix it himself. Makes sense for the Creator to let his Champion know that before his first real battle with the DO's proxies, eh?
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JakOShadows: 2007-02-01
Catalyst:
The other interesting thing is I think about with those words is that they don't seem that helpful to the DO. Wouldn't the DO want Rand to be unsure and not even speak to him at all? And there is also the fact that the DO has never stepped in and directly schemed against Rand. He just tells his minions to create chaos and Moridin to command his armies and other forsaken. So logic makes it seem like that it is the creator and unlikely that it is the DO. That's why this seems obvious to me at least.
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Chang: 2007-03-05
Nice theory, but I don't know if Lews Therin could actually control his soul.
*Allright, from the 'gars, we know that death in part consists of losing memory/a memory wipe*
I thought the 'gars remembered who they were before, witness balthamel's agitation at being reborn a woman and recalling the ansaline gardens etc? And I thought it was cleared up some time back that memory is an essential part of identity? Someone wrote a good theory about this.
On another note...why does a soul have to be wiped clean everytime it is reborn? Can the soul also not evolve and maintain the "persona" of past lives within it, just inaccessible to the current incarnation? Meaning ,all souls are created equal (in the beginning), like a blank piece of paper, and then are written on by past lives. The heroes are interred in TAR as their most recent incarnations, but with full access to their souls from an outside perspective, without the danger of a past incarnation taking control. When they are spun out again, the latest reincarnation is written on the soul and then the soul is sent into the great wide open. Why some souls are chosen as heroes is beyond me, but I have a feeling it has something to do with the actions of that soul in it's first incarnation, the experiences that create strength of character. We know that people can become taveren even if they weren't before. I have a suspicion that elayne is now taveren, mildly at least (too much dumb, random luck). So the Souls that had the best writing (on the whole paper biz) in their first incarnation become heroes or taveren, added to occasionally when another soul commits exemplary deeds and shapes the pattern around them through sheer strength of will or something. What this has to do with how lews is talking to rand, i don't know, but i thought i'd throw it out there.
