Tamyrlin: 2006-02-20

From what we have learned from the most recent book, Rand's "condition" caused by the taint appears to be something that was studied and undertstood to an extent. I think the quotes do support your contention that the DO's power can be used to heal the effects of the taint. However, I don't believe it has to be the DO's power. In other words, while I find the idea compelling, that a Forsaken could or would heal Rand of the madness the Taint caused, I don't see why it couldn't be done using the OP. The AS of the AoL did not know how to heal stilling, yet it has been discovered at this time of need in the Third Age. I'm sure there will be varying opinions on this issue. I hope we can produce a good discussion on the merits of healing madness.

mako0424: 2006-02-20

A few quick points:

All in all, i agree very much with this theory.

But remember, Granedal, before turning to the Dark one, was a healer and curer or madness, and mental deficiencies, so i think the One Power, and therefore all Asha'man and Aes Sedai could potentially Heal madness.

But i also feel more compelled to say, that once again, the Wheel will sort of repeat itself or show again, and one of the Forsaken, most likely Cyndane (because lets say she wants to heal his madness before killing all the females he loves), or Moridin would heal his madness.

but Rand's madness at Tarmon Gaidon would be a huge wildcard factor.thats both possible and semi-predicted, in Egwene's Accepted testing and LTT's eventual arisal from the recesses ofRand's mind. but i agree,

1. Madness/the taint can be healed, by the Dark for sure, and most likely all aspects of the one power

2. Rand will go mad and then be Healed.

haertchen: 2006-02-20

I think a valid question to be asked at this point is how long Lews Therin would have remained sane. That is to say, would it have lasted? When I read that section, I was under the impression that it would have been purely temporary.

I agree he was completely sane when he died, but the treatment hadn't been all that long ago.

On the other hand, we do have Nynavae along for the ride. And the taint has been cleansed, so if he was healed, retainting wouldn't be a problem.

Callandor: 2006-02-20

**I guess that alot of people take it for granted that eventually Rand will be able to become sane again (we can see loads of symptoms that he is mad), but I want to prove that it is possible, and suggest how it might be done.**

I certainly don't. Rand's mad and is going to stay that way until he dies.

**This shows that not only does LTT remember what has happened, he regrets it and is against it, whilst when mad, he cared nothing for any other thing, even those he loved, which he proved by killing them. This I think sufficiently proves that LTT was cured of the taint, and that what peple like Moiraine say about the taint not being reversible is wrong.**

1. We don't know if Ishamael was lying when he said it was only temporary (only a "few lucid moments" remember).

2. Requires using the True Power, according to Jordan.

**Q: New dreadlords? Via TP? What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before?

A: Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity. TP used at SG will fry you instantly.**

Only the Forsaken, and more importantly only Ishamael/Moridin now, can use that.

3. To the extent of Moiraine's knowledge nothing can be done. The taint won't go away naturally, nor can anyone using the One Power Heal its effects.

**I now think it is possible to agree that the Forsaken can heal Rand bringing him back to sanity ,which would mean that Rand has the opportunity to live on after the Last Battle because it is not certain that he will be crazy, therefore it being better for him to die in TG.**

IF it's not a temporary effect.

And, you still have to deal with Rand still being revered and hated by equal halves of the world, and people constantly trying to use him/kill him if given the chance.

Sharom: 2006-02-21

Traveller seems to have gotten it right... the taint is obviously reversible, Ishamael showed that by Healing Lews Therin. He also stated that what he did was different from the Healing that an Aes Sedai could give, although he doesn't say that his Healing was any more permanent than an Aes Sedai could give.

It makes sense that since the Taint was a product of the True Power, only the True Power could remove it once it has infected someone. Rand has been Healed repeatedly with both the traditional weaves and the new ones found by Nynaeve and by Flinn and none of them have had any effect on his madness. The One Power cannot heal madness from the Taint, only the True Power can.

And yes, Graendal worked with mental patients before joining the shadow, but you're forgetting that she specifically stated that healing them was NOT a thing of the One Power. She was pretty much the same as any psychologist today.

Traveller was right, only the True Power can heal Rand's madness. That means Moridin, since he is at present the only Forsaken allowed to channel it.

JakOShadows: 2006-02-21

I do think it might be possible, but the fact that AS in the AoL couldn't do much makes it less likely. Of course Nynaeve is arguably as powerful as some of the most powerful channelers back then, but the fact that there was more people means that there were more people capable of solving the problem. And since they didn't come up with a solution, I don't think it would be an easy task. And plus, I think Nynaeve would have to learn a lot about how to heal the mind as well as body to solve the taint issue. Which it seems like she is a very good healer of the body, the mind is something we haven't seen to be as knowledgeable on. She has proven that she has the natural talent to do that, so it is entirely possible. It just seems like RJ is setting this up so that Rand is having to struggle with himself during his fight with the DO and Moridin and everyone else.

And one thing I was curious about, if Moridin does in fact do the healing again, would that mean he won't be at the LB. Because I don't think he leave Shayul Ghul defenseless if there was a strike there, so events would have to conspire in the same way for it to happen again, which doesn't seem likely given they way the wheel works.

allpowerful32: 2006-02-21

I agree with the above, and also I'd like to add that in the first mentioned quote it says that the DO's method of healing is different from LTT's. This implies (to me, at least) that there was a method known to AS in the AOL that either was discovered to cure the taint, or an already present method of healing that can be extended to heal the taint. Has anyone tried the new type of healing (Nynave's(sp??))on Rand? Maybe this can heal the madness.

haertchen: 2006-02-22

One possible response to JakOShadows is that the AOL was different for two reasons:

They did not know what the taint was when it first began. A lot of channelers became really, really destructive before attempts at healing would have begun. This would likely have been too little too late, as the world was already falling apart. Probably the knowledge of healing was destroyed early on, or something like that.

The second big difference is that the taint is now gone. Any healing will be permanent.

Of course, as I said before, we don't know how long the healing would really have worked. We only have one instance of it happening, and LTT ODed on OP before we could see what happened next.

JakOShadows: 2006-02-22

allpowerful:

Ishmael's statement there was meant to be more ironic, so to speak. He was saying that this might do more harm than good. But there are several references in the book and in the theory that say that they had methods to temporarily heal the madness, but that it was not very effective.

The Philosopher: 2006-02-23

There is also that it could be quite possible that Rand's death would cleanse him of his madness, assuming that he is indeed mad. I, quite frankly, find it questionable, given his general lucidity in most matters; while he is erratic and perplexing, his every act is, in my mind, designed to thwart his enemy's(the Forsaken, and any number of nobles that think to engauge him) plans against him.

There is more evidence towards his internal rot, a result of the Taint, and it would be interesting to see how this could be stemmed or turned around. Think back to reactions to Source embrace Pre Cleansing- he can barely stay on his horse, or even breathe at times. How could the removal of the Taint, and the theoretical healing of a Tainted individual, affect such rot?

Paddy: 2006-02-24

I think the only reason the Taint was healed in the AoL is that it wasn't a gradual change as it is in Randland. When the DO caounterstroked most of the remaining Hundred companions went mad instantly, so the other AS wouldn't have had time to study it as they would already be in a lot of trouble with the thousands of male channelers going mad all over the place after the devastation of the War of the Shadow.

I don't think any of the forsaken are likely to use the TP to heal him, but maybe if he dies and is then brought back via Balefire the madness will go with it.

llamedos: 2006-02-24

This is possibly a rather hard point to bring up for my first post but LTT is comonally proven to be mad from his chats with rand, unless you argue that he was turned mad from rands own exposure to the taint

Callandor: 2006-02-26

**This is possibly a rather hard point to bring up for my first post but LTT is comonally proven to be mad from his chats with rand, unless you argue that he was turned mad from rands own exposure to the taint**

Or that Lews Therin is a fabrication created by Rand from genuine sources (IE: memory fragments from Lews Therin's life), and part of Rand's own taint madness. Lews Therin is mad because both Rand is mad and he thinks of Lews Therin as mad.

haertchen: 2006-02-26

Woops! Now we've hit on the nature of LTT in Rand's head. This is far from clear, although I think the majority of fans who have seriously discussed it now believe (thanks to some RJ quotes) that Rand *is* LTT (they are the same soul, and in some sense the same "person"). For some reason Rand can access LTT's memories (this is not the place to discuss theories relating to why.)

The question then clearly is: if the taint can be healed, what will the effects be?

Will Rand stop hearing voices?

Will Rand stop remembering LTT's memories? (Not necessarily the same thing.)

I refuse to comment, having no idea.

JakOShadows: 2006-02-26

Actually, I strongly believe that LTT is a personality created by Rand's mind to account for his extra memories seeping in due to the taint. People are divided up into two camps about this, one soul or two soul. It definitely sounds like you are a two souler, but you should check out the theories about it. Callandor's Barrier Degradation theory is the one soul theory, and I don't know which one is the two soul theory, but it shouldn't be hard to find. It will help you catch up on the argument if you are new here. Oh, and welcome.

Callandor: 2006-03-01

**The question then clearly is: if the taint can be healed, what will the effects be?

Will Rand stop hearing voices?

Will Rand stop remembering LTT's memories? (Not necessarily the same thing.)**

Which is specifically linked to how Lews Therin appeared in the first place, and what he is. Is Lews Therin a fabrication made by Rand due to certain factors? Is Lews Therin the actual pervious personality just moved into Rand's mind as well? Different answers for different circumstances.

**People are divided up into two camps about this, one soul or two soul. It definitely sounds like you are a two souler, but you should check out the theories about it. Callandor's Barrier Degradation theory is the one soul theory, and I don't know which one is the two soul theory, but it shouldn't be hard to find.**

There is no such thing as a reputable two-souler theory anymore. Jordan effectively killed the theory after Crossroads came out. Rand and Lews Therin are two personalities, same soul.

The difference in perspective now is: Is Lews Therin a real voice? Or is he a construct made by Rand, from a real source (IE: memories, and other factors)?

I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty which is the more popular theory now, but the books on the surface imply that Lews Therin is real (however, there still are some big problems with that stance still which calls it even more into doubt, hence hard to gauge the popularity of either theory).

Ishamael666: 2006-03-02

Guys, debate LTT elsewhere.

Two quotes from before:

allpoweful32-"I agree with the above, and also I'd like to add that in the first mentioned quote it says that the DO's method of healing is different from LTT's. This implies (to me, at least) that there was a method known to AS in the AOL that either was discovered to cure the taint, or an already present method of healing that can be extended to heal the taint. Has anyone tried the new type of healing (Nynave's(sp??))on Rand? Maybe this can heal the madness."

Yes, Nynaeve/Flinn's healing has been done on Rand many times. and since it's the OP, it cannot cure the taint.

Sharom-"And yes, Graendal worked with mental patients before joining the shadow, but you're forgetting that she specifically stated that healing them was NOT a thing of the One Power. She was pretty much the same as any psychologist today."

When was this? I was always under the impression she used the Power, possibly some variety of Compulsion.

Aside: Graendal might have been the one to discover Compulsion-it's right up her alley, and she's the best person at it.

lurk: 2006-03-02

interesting discussion. I personally think that Rand is schizophrenic (hope I spelled that correct). Meaning that he actually has two personalities that struggle with eachother for dominion. Somehow LTT has gotten stronger. I think it has to do with the increasing memories of LTT Rand has. Rand is starting to become convinced there is another man in his head, making the other personality stronger.

The struggle to reach saidin before LTT does is an example of this IMHO

Another thing that troubles me is that we have not yet defined the madness from the taint correctly. Is it just hearing voices and responding to them or are there more elements that play a role. What is madness actually?

haertchen: 2006-03-03

***

Guys, debate LTT elsewhere.

***

Since LTT is probably related to the taint and it's effects on Rand, it seems directly related to the subject. Call it an extension to the theory, maybe.

***

Yes, Nynaeve/Flinn's healing has been done on Rand many times. and since it's the OP, it cannot cure the taint.

*** Yes, it's quite clear that Nynavaes new weave for healing won't heal the taint. However, I don't think the possibility that another weave may be able to has been ruled out yet. In short, I'm not sure you can conclusively say "Because it's the OP it can't heal the taint."

***

Aside: Graendal might have been the one to discover Compulsion-it's right up her alley, and she's the best person at it.

***

While I agree that Graendel is exactly the sort of person who would discover compulsion if it hadn't been around already, I'm pretty sure it was known in the AOL.

The reason I say this is because it seems to be one of the more common wilder tricks. Given the number of people who had learned to channel in the AOL before Graendel, I would be astounded if it hadn't been around for ages when she was born.

Traveller: 2006-03-05

I reckon that healing the madness caused by the taint, won't be like the new healing that goes through the whole body healing every physical wound- I reckon it will be a different weave directly for that purpose.

Frenzy: 2006-03-05

Why would you think the Op can't cure the taint? The OP removed the taint from Saidin, after all. Perhaps what's needed is a Male and Female linked, weaving both saidin and saidar to remove the effects.

The one thing you may have to worry about, though, is that when the Taint was removed, it left a very big hole in the ground. Removing the Taint from a person may cause similar results.

Some may say it's worth it, though.

Ishamael666: 2006-03-05

**Q: New dreadlords? Via TP? What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before?

A: Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity. TP used at SG will fry you instantly.**

That's from an interview. Jordan specifically states the OP doesn't work on insanity.

Napoleon the Clown: 2006-03-06

Well, seeing as how saidin is clean, we essentially have the effects of Rand being gentled as far as the taint effects. When Semirhage said that men that started hearing voices usually went completely mad all of a sudden, she was likely speaking of men still being poisoned by the taint. Most likely, Rand will not “snap.” Also, Semirhage has been shown to have a basic understanding of manipulation, so there's a pretty good chance she was trying to sow seeds of paranoia toward anything Rand orders or does from then on. If Rand's current state of mind and the possibility of a sudden, massive snap leak out, as rumors do, the Dragon will lose most of his followers. Armies will melt away and try hiding from a man that may kill them all for an imagined reason.

As far as healing the madness... Well, Rand is displaying symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia. Severe mood swings, paranoia, hallucinations (LTT's voice, of which Rand is convinced is real), insomnia... Two conditions that almost all schizophrenics display are very high dopamine levels and also, the brain atrophies. MRI scans show that the motor/thought centers are badly shrunken. Which brings me to my point about him being healed.

It has been confirmed by RJ that the OP cannot fix Rand's mind. Also, it has been shown that the OP cannot restore lost limbs. It is reasonable to assume that it also cannot repair brain damage, which the atrophy caused by schizophrenia can be considered. The TP, on the other hand may be able to fully restore someone, repairing brain damage, restoring limbs... Or the healing that Ishy used on LTT may have just balanced out the chemicals in LTT's head. A temporary fix.

I personally think that it is a moot point, however. I strongly doubt Rand will be healed of his madness in time for the LB. Also, such healing may in fact harm him, as LTT may be able to supply Rand with weaves that could be used against the DO. Tactical experience would also be lost. I'm afraid that healing Rand may well be the wrong thing to do, in fact.

And that's my two coppers on that.

Traveller: 2006-03-06

Frenzy:

I am not necessarily saying that it can only be cured with the TP, but that only the Forsaken have the knowledge and at this time, the ability to do it. This could lead to the conclusion that TP must be used, but I was saying it in order to show that some Forsaken are going to have to heal him; he will need to turn some or capture them and trust them enough to do that to him.

Callandor: 2006-03-06

**Why would you think the Op can't cure the taint? The OP removed the taint from Saidin, after all. Perhaps what's needed is a Male and Female linked, weaving both saidin and saidar to remove the effects.**

No, it did not Frenzy, and that's incredibly misleading. The One Power did nothing to remove the taint, except carry it toward the city of Shadar Logoth. THAT removed the taint; not the One Power. You drive your car to the dealership to fix scratches in it; the car isn't what fixes the scratches, it's just transport.

Frenzy: 2006-03-08

Well, isn't it bloody convenient then that a fragment of Shadar Logoth's evil remains in the world, yes? Heck, there's some still in Rand's body. Nynaeve can resurrect his dead fanny, link with Damer Flinn and feed all the Taint into that cesspit in Rand's side, then they can capture Fain and do a group Heal on all the surviving Asha'man, and everyone lives happily ever after.

i feel ill.

allpowerful32: 2006-03-08

Why can't Nynaeve heal Rand's maddness problem? She's already done something thought to not be possible in AoL: Healing stilling.

tworiverswoman: 2006-03-09

Starting at the top and working my way down:

__________________________________________________

Traveler - the quote from Ishamael, Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." As has been pointed out by others, there is a strong possibility that the way he emphasized the first words, "even one of them" implies that his healing will not be even as good as theirs, as far as duration goes. And, even though everyone says he was completely sane when he died, I think that is an erroneous assumption.

What he was confronted with after Ishamael restored his mind would have been enough to have destroyed it again, even if we discount the effects of the taint. And he DID commit suicide, an arguably insane act. But LTT's fate isn't really the one on the table, here. It's Rand we're talking about, now.

__________________________________________________

As a pedantic aside, I see a lot of posts referring to "curing the taint", which is wrong and leads to some false thinking. What needs to be cured are the effects of the taint. (I know this is what you actually mean - it just keeps yanking me up by the short hairs every time I read it.) This includes both the potential madness (and Rand isn't the only male channeler who may have this problem, remember), and the "body-rot" that was spoken of from time to time. If there are other possible effects, I'm not sure what they are. The taint itself was an agent that caused damage; a surface phenomenom laid on top of the use of Saidin. It's gone. But the effects linger. They just won't get any worse, according to RJ.

If RJ has said that only the True Power can cure these effects (can you produce the quotes for that, Callandor - I just copied every interview / commentary / signing info link I could find - I didn't see that particular quote among them), then Rand has a problem, because I can't see any of the Forsaken willingly fixing Rand up to be stronger and healthier at the Last Battle. Semirhage is their captive, true, but she's possibly trickier that they are prepared for. Also, she is not at present allowed access to the True Power.

__________________________________________________

JakOShadows feels that since the AOL channelers couldn't solve the problem, then the 3rd Agers won't be likely to. Heartchen, I think you have this part right. I think JOS is forgetting to take into account the level of chaos that was happening during this period. The Tainting of Saidin led almost immediately to the Breaking, and the functional structure of the AOL society was already damaged to the breaking point even before this, from the War of the Shadow. I don't think they were able to devote as much attention to figuring out what was specifically wrong and how to fix it, until it had already gone past the point of no return. This is not to say that nobody tried, but survival was taking up a lot of their attention, I think. And the 3rd Agers have already managed to surprise the Forsaken with a number of things that were considered impossible in the AOL. So, who knows?

__________________________________________________

The Philosopher spoke of Rand's internal rot - referencing the trouble Rand is having with dizzy spells and so forth. I always linked those to the hook-up he has with Moridin, rather than another side effect of the Taint. No other channeler appears to be having any similar difficulties. But in one of Rand's visions of Moridin, "The other man appeared about to sick up." A statement which offers me no small amusement.

__________________________________________________

Believing Semirhage. Well, I keep remembering RJ's remark, "C'mon, man. You believe Ishamael?!" The problem with dismissing her out of hand, though, is that some of what she said is probably quite true. But only the parts that would accomplish something she wanted. So how do you pick and choose? "He's insane." Well. Hmmm... "The voice is real." Depends on how you define "real" for whether or not you accept this one. I like it, but Callandor probably doesn't. "The descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt." This one I dismiss without a murmur of protest. It is obviously a statement designed to generate alarm and dismay among Rand's followers. Although, in a general sort of way, they've been sort of prepared for him to go mad at any time all along, as that's what's happened to male channelers for 3,000 years, until very recently.

__________________________________________________

Napoleon the Clown - this is a book. Don't try to equate Rand's condition too closely with Real World ailments. There've been a number of threads posted on the message boards about SP vs. MDD vs. "LTT is real." No conclusions were reached. But an atrophying brain in Rand's head doesn't really seem in keeping with the plotlines, somehow.

__________________________________________________

So, the theory is that Rand's "madness" can be healed by use of the True Power. Which I don't necessarily agree with, because of what I said in the first two paragraphs. Also, there's no evidence that Ishamael's "cure" would have lasted, or even DID last, any significant length of time. And no Forsaken is likely to perform the healing, anyway. OTOH, Moridin is nuts, and seems to have some kind of link to Rand. He's already saved his life at least once.

Whatever we say here, Jordan will surprise us all, I'm sure.

Frenzy: 2006-03-09

Some reactions can't happen without a catalyst, Callandor. Might as well say Rand did it all by his lonesome.

Callandor: 2006-03-09

**When Semirhage said that men that started hearing voices usually went completely mad all of a sudden, she was likely speaking of men still being poisoned by the taint.**

She's speaking in a way from before there was a taint. Or, she's just lying.

**Also, Semirhage has been shown to have a basic understanding of manipulation, so there's a pretty good chance she was trying to sow seeds of paranoia toward anything Rand orders or does from then on.**

Exceedingly possible.

haertchen: 2006-03-10

Actually, I've heard before that RJ said that the OP can't heal madness. That's why Graendel had a job during the AOL, isn't it?

This just makes it more likely all Ishamael did to LTT was make him temporarily sane.

Callandor: 2006-03-11

**Well, isn't it bloody convenient then that a fragment of Shadar Logoth's evil remains in the world, yes? Heck, there's some still in Rand's body. Nynaeve can resurrect his dead fanny, link with Damer Flinn and feed all the Taint into that cesspit in Rand's side, then they can capture Fain and do a group Heal on all the surviving Asha'man, and everyone lives happily ever after.**

Ignoring the known impossbility of the One Power Healing death, the entire subject doesn't have anything to do with your statement that the One Power removed the taint from saidin.

**If RJ has said that only the True Power can cure these effects (can you produce the quotes for that, Callandor - I just copied every interview / commentary / signing info link I could find - I didn't see that particular quote among them), then Rand has a problem, because I can't see any of the Forsaken willingly fixing Rand up to be stronger and healthier at the Last Battle.**

Only one is this:

**Q: New dreadlords? Via TP? What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before?

A: Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity.**

He doesn't say it in the way you desire, but there isn't any other power besides the True Power and the One Power (unless you wish to go out on a limb and bringing in Dues ex machina to ruin the series).

**"The descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt." This one I dismiss without a murmur of protest. It is obviously a statement designed to generate alarm and dismay among Rand's followers. Although, in a general sort of way, they've been sort of prepared for him to go mad at any time all along, as that's what's happened to male channelers for 3,000 years, until very recently.**

That's actually the one quote from Semirhage I believe most. The fall due to insanity would be quite abrupt -- and it can be argued that Rand's has been as well (and he still has the final areas to go, if he will fall), since it's only been around half a year I believe with Lews Therin.

Used to full effect to cause trouble, yes, but it rings the most with absolute truth.

**Some reactions can't happen without a catalyst, Callandor. Might as well say Rand did it all by his lonesome**

I'm not saying that, but I'm also not saying the that One Power removed the taint. There's a huge difference between the One Power brought the taint to Shadar Logoth, and the One Power removed the taint.

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster. Pure saidin, pure except for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth.**

The One Power did nothing but bring saidin, and the taint, to Shadar Logoth. Until that happened, the taint wasn't being effected at all. Once it started to reach Shadar Logoth the taint started to leech out and attract to the evil and eventually they would destroy each other. The One Power had nothing to do with this, except as a deliverary method so saying the One Power removed the taint is misleading at best, and incorrect at a simple reading.

CrazyIrishMan: 2006-03-16

"But even one of them (LTT's "sisters" meaning the Aes Sedai) could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first."

I believe that what Ishy meant was that the Dragon would become insane again only because the taint was still there and the Dragon wold go mad all over again, as if for the first time.

If Rand is now healed, it would now be permenant, as the taint will not be there to draw him back!

Traveller: 2006-03-16

"I believe that what Ishy meant was that the Dragon would become insane again only because the taint was still there and the Dragon wold go mad all over again, as if for the first time."

A few lucid minutes? I don't really think that Ishy is saying that after a few minutes after the sisters' healing, LTT would manage to wield enough saidin to return to full madness. Anyway, even if he were, how would his healing be different?

Ishamael666: 2006-03-16

As for what Ishy said, remember: he's ISHAMAEL. He doesn't tell the truth terribly often. To quote RJ, though he was talking about what Ishy said in EotW, "You believed Ishamael?!"

Canan Urgas: 2006-03-29

in the prologue of TEotW Ishamael temporarily healed lews therins madness using the true power to make lews therin realise he had killed everyone. i think restoring sanity, whether his own or somebody elses, will be one of the nine impossible things that rand does.

The Librarian: 2006-03-29

Frenzy said this once, but nobody noticed it but Callandor, who managed to misinterpter it, so I'll say this a bit clearer:

Why couldn't the saidin be cleaned in the AOL? Because of lack of organization and lack of Shadar Logoth.

Why couldn't the madness be cured in the AOL? Because of lack of organization and lack of Shadar Logoth.

So if.

Taint + OP + Shadar Logoth=Cleansing

Dirty Rand + OP + Fain's Dagger=Clean Rand

OP isn't directly used to heal the madness so the quote is neurtlalized and Rand is clened.

I am not saying this will happen. It's just possible.

PS. Callandor, why are you so keen on getting Rand mad? Lews is obviously real. This is fantasy, not a psychological triller.(A bit unappropriate, but the only movie genre with psychology on it is so..)

Callandor: 2006-03-30

**PS. Callandor, why are you so keen on getting Rand mad? Lews is obviously real. This is fantasy, not a psychological triller.(A bit unappropriate, but the only movie genre with psychology on it is so..)**

Because Lews Therin being a real personality doesn't fit with everything we've seen from Rand. If Lews Therin is so real, how come it's Rand that can still control his body, even if Lews Therin is channeling saidin? If Lews Therin is real, where did he go from midway in A Crown of Swords to The Path of Daggers? If Lews Therin is real, how come it's so convienent that Rand and Lews Therin mirror each other to a phenomenal degree, yet they should presumably remain completely seperated and distinct (think Slayer)? If Lews Therin is real, how come Lews Therin seems to be the one that expresses Rand's suppressed emotions, yet when Rand actually expresses emotions, Lews Therin doesn't tend to appear?

Lastly is just a toss in from other people about believing Forsaken. I tend to believe a lot of what they say, but what Semirhage says in Knife of Dreams seems contrary to a heck of a lot of what we've been shown with Rand.

JakOShadows: 2006-03-30

Librarian:

I don't mean to speak for Callandor, but I don't think that it is very likely that LTT is really in his head. Think about the logic for a second, who are the only other people we know who are two people in one head, Slayer and Padan Fain. Slayer was created by the DO, and Fain merged with Shadar Logoth which is another force of evil. Have we seen Rand come into contact with any forces of evil and mentally change as a result of it? In my opinion, nothing that could have caused LTT to come into his head. So I wouldn't say that I want him to be crazy; in fact, I hope he can overcome this. I just don't think it is actually LTT. It just doesn't seem plausible, even if it is possible in a certain scenario.

Flinn Sedai: 2006-04-10

Been a while since I have posted here, so it might take me a while to get back into the swing of things.

I agree that the Taint is only reversable by use of the True Power. Moridin is currently the only one who is allowed to use that power, so clearly, if the taint is to be removed, it has to be by either his hand, the Dark One's or there has to be a shift of power.

Right now, there is absolutely no reason that the Dark One would want Rand to be completely sane. In fact, it would suit his purposes very well to have Rand completely insane so that he sows more chaos.

As I am of the belief that Moridin will do this cleansing if it is going to happen at all, I will attempt to disprove the other options.

So, the other option would be to have a dramatic shift in power amongst the Forsaken. This seems highly unlikely as the other Forsaken appear to be doing particularly poorly on their own. As well, Moridin has been able to manipulate events rather effectively towards his own ends. Any power struggle between Forsaken would require a large amount of time that just isn't there.

The only remaining option is for Moridin to heal Rand of the Taint, or for Rand to not be healed. As the latter is of little consequence, I believe that it would be most prudent to explore the prior.

The question arises then, why would Moridin choose to heal Rand of the Taint? Clearly, as it is against the Dark One's wishes, though presumably not explicitly stated, in order for Moridin to Heal Rand, he would need to switch sides. So, we would have to look for signs that Moridin has begun to consider joining the good side, or at least Rand's side.

In Path of Daggers, we get a Moridin Point of View in which he says something along the lines of, "It's hard to lose if you're playing both sides." What this means, presumably, is that he wins whether Rand wins or whether the Dark One wins. What that must mean is that he has built up credibility on both sides so that if it looks like one is about to lose, he can double cross the other to assure the victory of the other, as well as ensuring a place of good standing for himself.

With that in mind, consider the actions that we have seen displayed from him, as well as his inaction. When Rand was hunting Sammael, Moridin stepped in to save Rand and to assist Rand in eliminating Sammael. While Sammael may have gone a bit far, I doubt that Moridin would kill him for absolutely no reason. Sammael was, after all, talented, powerful and resourceful. Moridin could have easily just saved Rand and made a Gateway for him to get free with. Instead, he saves him, tells him how to kill Sammael, then assists Rand in killing him.

During this entire exersize, Moridin has not identified himself. By doing so, he can claim to be who he likes, as well as earning good credit towards Rand by saving his life and helping to eliminate a powerful Forsaken.

Moreover, Moridin has specifically kept himself directly out of situations that would involve him encountering Rand where he would be forced to fight or acknowledge himself as a Forsaken. Most particularly, he was not present at the Cleansing. This seems particularly odd as other Forsaken are called to task for not showing up. As the Nae'blis, he should be out there protecting the Dark One's interests. However, he had to factor in the probability that Rand would succeed. If Rand succeeds, despite his most sincere efforts, then he will have burned a bridge. He will lose any chance of joining Rand's side, even if Rand might succeed.

Consider also that he channels the True Power almost exclusively. If he were to use the True Power sparingly, then the Dark One would notice every time that Rand used it. However, if he is channelling it day and night, there would be no reason for the Dark One to notice another time that it is used. As well, Moridin runs things pretty much unsupervised. Nobody checks in on him and he is trusted to act in the best interests of the Dark One. In such a way, Moridin would be able to use the True Power to Heal Rand without drawing unwanted notice from the Dark One, if the situation arises that Moridin feels that the Dark One is going to lose. Moridin could switch sides without consequence at almost any time up until Tarmon Gaidon.

Again, that is just the situation that I see the Taint being reversed. In any situation other than that presented, Rand will be stuck with the Taint that has already seeped into him.

evelynner: 2006-04-10

Something just struck me:

"and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun."

Doesn't that sound a bit like "twice dawns the day..."?!?

vergere6: 2006-04-20

Moridin and Rand are now linked by the balefire meeting thing right? What if moridin starts to feel the taint, the madness, and heals Rand to stop the "feedback" from reaching him?

Heh...just a thought..

minalth: 2006-04-21

the whole few lucid moments thing might be because he will commit suicide anyway, once he realises whats happened.



everyone seems to think the 'new healing' thing is one weave, its not. its spoken of that way by people who know very little about it. the 'new healing' is using different weaves for different ailments.



flinn sedai -- i like your theory



vergere6 -- this was what i thaught would happen, and it makes sense, but flinn's theory is so much more appealing... i suppose its a RAFO

Hellebore: 2006-04-28

Cool stuff here, guys.

Ishy 'healed' LTT in AoL right?LTT became sane and then he killed himself, yada, yada, yada.

If he's supposed to be sane when he killed himself, how come he's mad in Rands head? doesn't make much sense to me...

what if what ishy did to LTT wasn't 'healing' at all? What if LTT was just given a temporary shield against the taint? you know, that big, black, pulsing line thingy all the way to the DO?

The forsaken tend to lie, don't they? Then LTT becomes mad again because LTTs host(Rand) isn't protected from the taint.

The madness hasn't disapeared yet probably because the madness is just that. Madness. It's not that the taint, taints people, it's just that people can't handle all that ickiness without becoming mad. Maybe that big, black, pulsing thingy is just a way to dampen the madness. Like some sort of drug to supress the symptoms?

It probably comes down to Rand becoming clinically insane and then him needing a good shrink to fix him up again.

Wouldn't that be a sight? Rand on Freud's couch!! Haha....

JakOShadows: 2006-04-29

Hellebore:

I'm sure you'll hear this from Callandor after me, but RJ has said himself that it is not really LTT in Rand's head. Now there are still a lot of ideas out there, but the general concensus is that it is an alternate personality created by Rand to deal with the memories of LTT he has started gaining. And the gaining of those memories has come from the taint tearing down the barrier between the memories of his past life. And if you look LTT's rantings and ravings, it seems to directly parallel what Rand is thinking when he very angry or sad or highly emotional. So I believe it is also used as a place to feed all his emotions. The theory where this is all explained is called Barrier Degredation. I'm sure Callandor will give you a much better explanation than this with far more quotes, but I just wanted to point you in the right direction.

Lugh of the Vanth: 2006-11-25

One thing I've been curious of is where RJ stated that it is not really LTT in Rand's head.

Anubis: 2006-11-26

**If he's supposed to be sane when he killed himself, how come he's mad in Rands head? doesn't make much sense to me... **

Maybe you should reread the prolouge. Especially LTT's reaction after Ishy heals him. It would be educational.

Dragon Tamer: 2008-03-12

I remember it being said somewhere that the TP and OP are both capable of the same things, they just weave differently. So healing Rand could be done with the OP if it is even required.

WolfWarder: 2008-03-26

Re: The Taint Is Reversible!

Traveller seems to have gotten it right... the taint is obviously reversible, Ishamael showed that by Healing Lews Therin. He also stated that what he did was different from the Healing that an Aes Sedai could give, although he doesn't say that his Healing was any more permanent than an Aes Sedai could give.

It makes sense that since the Taint was a product of the True Power, only the True Power could remove it once it has infected someone. Rand has been Healed repeatedly with both the traditional weaves and the new ones found by Nynaeve and by Flinn and none of them have had any effect on his madness. The One Power cannot heal madness from the Taint, only the True Power can.

And yes, Graendal worked with mental patients before joining the shadow, but you're forgetting that she specifically stated that healing them was NOT a thing of the One Power. She was pretty much the same as any psychologist today.

Traveller was right, only the True Power can heal Rand's madness. That means Moridin, since he is at present the only Forsaken allowed to channel it.

Q:If the taint came from the TP, how then was it possible to cleanse it with the OP?

A: The two parts of the OP combined makes up the TP. Rand will be cured from his madness by Nynaeve and Flinn. They will link and use both parts of the OP.

padfoot: 2008-03-31

I was just wondering about the taint cleansing. The Eye of the World was created after saidin was tainted and before Shadar Logoth. So obviously there was another way to cleanse it.

RavenPrince: 2008-04-03

Yes, but remember that a whole lot of Aes Sedai, both men and women had to give their life to create that clean pool of Saidin.

adamko: 2008-04-12

Flinn Sedai:

You forgot to mention the possibility of Rand switching sides, maybe because of his madness, and being healed by the DO/Moridin/himself with TP, and then switching back once he becomes sane (or not).

(Seems unlikely this will happen, but I suppose it's right up there with Moridin defecting).

Davian93: 2008-04-15

****A: The two parts of the OP combined makes up the TP. Rand will be cured from his madness by Nynaeve and Flinn. They will link and use both parts of the OP. ****

Umm...No they don't actually. The Truepower comes from the Dark One while the One Power is made up of female and male parts saidar and saidin respectively. The One Power and the True Power are not connected in any way.