Tamyrlin: 2010-12-20

I've always hated the concept of Rand battling Ishamael once again, so I like the idea that there is more of the Dark One in Ishamael, making him more akin to Shaidar Haran than a Forsaken. Now, to the specifics of your theory.

I think you are on sound ground suggesting that Moridin, possibly in the transmigration, is a different creature than just a reincarnated Forsaken. However, I'm not supportive of the suggestion that Ishamael, prior to becoming Moridin was already part Dark One. I think the eyes can be attributed to the effects of the true power and the differences can be attributed to being half trapped for thousands of years. I can imagine the Dark One adding something since Ishamael was not able to do it on his own.

Fun thought - look forward to the conversation.

Juan: 2010-12-20

Doesn't sustained use of the True Power cause death? How is Moridin still alive having used the True Power so much for so long....

Elanor: 2010-12-21

The most interesting point of this theory for me is the connection between the characters described as having something different about their eyes and Rand's new 'Darkfriend-radar' allowing him to detect Darkfriends when he looks people in the eye. The Dark Prophecy says "And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before him", so literally, and more than ever, 'eyes are the mirror of the soul'.

But everything in the WoT universe is about balance and to counter the 'Eyes of Dark' are Rand's eyes. How fitting that the Lord of the Morning's eyes are so often described being the color of a summer sky at dawn or, as early as in TSR, looking: "like morning mist covering the dawn" (p.95, paperback). Morning against Evening, mist/Water (with all the cleansing, healing symbolism connected to dew/dawn, especially in alchemy) against Fire, Light against the Dark.

In ToM, the circle is closing, the Great Serpent about to bite its tail (the ouroboros symbolism) and so we are brought to the beginning of the series symbolically, to eyes again, really to "The Eye of the World". The Eye of the World is pure Light and I would surmise that, although Rand drains the Eye at the end of TEoTW, it takes him all the journey to the top of Dragonmount to really integrate its power. More than the Eye serving Rand it is now Rand serving the Eye, banishing shadow and serving the Light. Symbolically, he is now the Eye of the World.

In symbolism, the ouroboros (the serpent biting its tail), the everlasting circle, is not always represented by a snake, it can also be represented by a dragon biting its tail. Indeed, in the 16th and 17th century, the words 'serpent', 'dragon' and 'worm' were interchangeable terms. (So, funnily enough, when the Shadow calls Rand "worm", it is a veiled recognition of who he is). The Dragon is always reborn for a new circle to unfold, finally close, and start again. In other words, symbolically the Dragon is the embodiment of the Great Serpent.

The dragon is a very important symbol in alchemy and it finds a wonderful echo in Rand's journey: "Metaphysically, the dragon is the lower, earthly self which the soul must learn to subdue and train, so that the higher self (the golden apples) may at last reign." (quoted in L.Abraham, A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery). The apples of the quote are the Golden Apples of the Hesperides, a symbol of the achieved Great Work of the alchemist. And what is Rand's first action after Dragonmount? To make Almen's (read "all men") apples bloom and ripen, how symbolic! And all the while the old man keeps describing Rand's eyes, the mirror of his soul, of his newly found higher self.

(Incidentally, another symbol for the succesful Great Work is something called... "Dragon's blood", akin to the Elixir of Life, but I digress. If anybody is interested I can write more about it - although, as I am new here, I am not sure where I should post it).

Finally, I would say that Rand's eyes are the eyes of Light but the other Ta'veren's eyes should not be forgotten. IMO, Perrin's golden eyes and Mat's sacrifice of an eye to "save the world" (another "eye of the world" so to speak?) will prove to be equally important in the Last Battle.

heavytabbs: 2010-12-21

Do you believe that the last battle will entail a conflict between Rand and Moridin (as an "avatar" of the DO) rather than a direct confrontation of the DO proper? If Rand does indeed break the seals, will the DO need theses "avatars," such as Shaidar Haran and Moridin? What will become of Shaidar Haran when the DO no longer needs him? Will he be a husk of a myrdrall left to waste away, or will he just be a DO-defused super myrdrall? just some weird questions you might like to answer. there are kind of in the same area of interest as your theory, and assuming that your theory concerning moridin is true. I however, do not believe that Moridin is an "avatar." I believe that the DO is just increasing his ability to touch the world.

Let's get more hints to something not being right with Moridin as just Ishamael.

ToM Writings pg 117-120

"Moridin scowled, then hesitated, glancing to the side. At nothing. I am to leave you without punishment, for now."

"Had that been a communication directly from the Great Lord? As far as she knew, all Chosen in this age had to go to him in Shayol Ghul to receive orders. Or at least suffer a visit from that horrid creature Shaidar Haran."

So here we see the very first clue Moridin has power similar to Shaidar Haran. Most wouldn't notice it, but luckily the next page offers more clues:

I feel that this quote is merely the DO being able to speak to the Nae'blis due to his increased ability to touch the world, something that no one needs citations for to know that it has been expressed countless times as the series progresses. Nae'blis has some perks and I think it would be ok to assume the DO wouldn't make Moridin come all the way to Shayol ghul to say something as trivial as "don't punish her yet."

I like your theory about the eyes though. Very subtle. One thing though, RJ was known as a gardener. this means that instead of having every single minute detail mapped out before the series even began, he let his books grow into what they had the potential to become. Having said this, I do not think that Ishy's eyes are referenced by this prophecy. Also, it would not surprise me that since Moridin is Nae'blis, he doesn't consider himself as a chosen anymore, leading me to believe that he knew about the dark prophecy as Ishy. It was Ishy that was responsible for the Seanchan variation of the prophecies of the dragon, and it would not be remiss for him to have based those "prophecies" on what would benefit the shadow based on their own prophecies. One last thing, in the great hunt (loose recitation idk which chapter but early in the book), i believe Verin tells us that what is written on the walls of the dungeon in Sheinar is dark prophecy, so if trollocs/myrdrall knew it, someone must have told them. Who would there be around to spread such knowledge? Ishy... He may have just kept it from the chosen to use as leverage. Who knows how their minds work...

bottom line: Ishy was just plain nuts, moridin is a different kind of nuts, niether are puppets of the DO IMO. SH however, obviously is. the only thing that has me questioning this, is the scene from TDR, where Baal kicks it and he seems to grown/shrink. I believe that this could be the DO preserving Ishy's soul for use in creating Moridin or something along those lines. like an evil assumption of sorts.. i hope that's not too sacrilegious.

o and yea, the eyes are def important, i think you're just trying to make connections that aren't there... man i just wanted to post the first paragraph... instead you get a rant... i have no self control...

ZT: 2010-12-21

Couple questions:

What are you getting at here:

Also, why would Ishamael, a Forsaken, have lasted this long? Rand is presumably almost timeless in age, he recalls thousands of lives during veins of gold. I find it hard to believe a mere Forsaken, one who is not Ta'veren and therefore more vulnerable, to have survived this long without being bale fired.

Ishy would also be just as "timeless" in age. Balefire would not change that. Whats the point?

It also would appear a site agrees with me, in part, though I don't know how they deduced this. --- from http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ishamael

Read the BWB and you will understand how they deduced (or copied) that

So let me get this straight:

You are suggesting that Moridin is not Ishmael, or more than just Ishmael? We know that Moridin is Ishamael's soul in another body. Most people (I think) believe that the DO acts through Moridin as he is Nae'blis. Moridin talks in much the same way that Ishamael. Really the only differences are that he seems less insane than Ishy and his eyes are maybe different. The eyes can easily be explained by TP usage and/or the DO acting through Moridin directly.

Again, remember that it is a fact the Moridin is Ishy's soul in another body.

As far as the quote with the prophecy and "not even the Chosen." Do you really believe that this is out of context for Ishy? As even you showed, he saw himself as above the others.

If you are suggesting the Moridin is either the DO or the Do's avatar and not Ishy, then you are wrong.

terez: 2010-12-21

"And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him"

Look at the second line carefully now. It suggests rather clearly, once he has your eyes, he has our souls. Now, now...there's sooo much more =)

Actually, the word 'for' indicates that He shall take our eyes because our souls bow before him which, if anything, indicates that the bowing comes first. Besides, all three ta'veren had their eyes taken by the Dark One in their dreams in TEOTW. Does that mean their souls belong to the Dark One?

We also have Rand in ToM inspecting the nobility, what does he do to find out who are darkfriends among him? He stands them in a line and searches their eyes.

What he is doing is trying to force Weiramon and Anaiyella to look him in the eyes. They can't. It is their reaction to his eyes that he was looking for, rather than anything in their own eyes - Torkumen and his wife had a similar reaction when Rand used the Power at Maradon, and it had nothing to do with eyes.

Also recall, those that come back changed at the Black Tower grow in power, and skill in weaving at a rate that defies logic. A mere compulsion type via 13x13 would not increase power/knowledge.

No one has actually gotten any stronger or increased oddly with skill. The men just assumed that Nensen had done so because Taim had raised him to Asha'man - and strength and skill in the Power are supposedly the prerequisites:

TITLE - Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 46 - Working Leather

"The men who take Taim's private lessons learn too quickly," Nalaam said. "Nensen was barely powerful enough to be considered for Dedicated just a short time ago. Now he's full Asha'man. Something very strange is going on. And those Aes Sedai. Why did Taim agree to let them bond us? You know he's protected all of his favorites by stopping the Aes Sedai from choosing any man with the Dragon pin. Burn me, but I don't know what I'll do if one chooses me. I'm not going to be put on some Aes Sedai s string."

...

"Something is strange about Nensen," Nalaam repeated. "And that Kash. Where did he even come from, and how did he grow so powerful so quickly? What if, when Logain returned, we had information for him. Or if we could take it to the Lord Dragon directly . . ."

Kash had probably already been trained to channel when he arrived at the Black Tower. Even if they really did get stronger, we know that Moridin is using vacuoles, so it's not all that surprising or unexplained to the reader. In any case, there is no evidence that anyone has actually gotten stronger, and I believe your case against the obvious turning-by-13x13 is very weak.

Remember these lines...not a man...a parody of one...a shadow stuffed inside human skin. Sounds awfully like what RJ described going on with Shaidar.

It sounds more similar to me to what happens to those who become Gray Men.

Odd how it seemed there were two of him, isn't it?

I don't think so. It's been pretty clear for a long time now that Ishamael is closer to the Dark One than most; the fact that he was accompanied by the dark aura in the early books was clue enough. Also:

It also would appear a site agrees with me, in part, though I don't know how they deduced this.

It's very nearly plagiarized from the BWB:

TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 5 - The Dark One and the Male Forsaken
ISHAMAEL

As Elan Morin Tedronai, he was one of the foremost philosophers of his time, possibly the foremost. His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and The Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts. No copies survive, and perhaps the world is better off for it, considering the circumstances. Some particles that have survived of his writings from after he went over to the Shadow - probably letters - indicate that it was his belief that the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin Telamon had gone on since the creation using human surrogates. According to him, Lews Therin had succumbed to the Dark One during other turnings of the Wheel and become the Great Lord’s champion. During the war, he fought as hard to turn Lews Therin to the side of the Shadow as he did to defeat him.

Brandon has also verified on book tour that Rand's and Ishamael's souls have often been twined together in life, much like the souls of Birgitte and Gaidal.

Lupusdeusest: 2010-12-24

Terez, "Brandon has also verified on book tour that Rand's and Ishamael's souls have often been twined together in life, much like the souls of Birgitte and Gaidal" sounds like you mean something completely different (at least to a mind saturated with Damn you Auto Correct at 11.37pm!)

Lorcin: 2010-12-24

could it be that the Asha'man are gaining extra powers giving their souls to the dark one, like channling Grey men, and also remenber the saying that the eyes are the window to the soul.

Belcyrlis: 2010-12-26

Wait, when you were talking about the fight between Rand and Ishy, you referenced Rand cutting the dark-steel bindings around Ishy, which made Ishy fluctuate, seeming for a moment to be two people. You used this as an argument, however I don`t see the connection. When Rand severed the dark-steel bindings from Asmodean in TSR, the same thing happened, and I know that Rand did the same thing to either Balthamel or Aginor in EotW. I thought it was just the effect of being severed from the DO?

brother of Battles: 2010-12-27

I agree with Terez. The reason Rand was looking into the eyes of all the nobility is because if someone was dedictated to the shadow, they wouldn't be able to look into his. Also, the difference Perrin see's in Ishy's eyes was probably just the Saa he has from using the True power.

I don't have any of the books with me right now to use as a reference, but from reading the passage it sounded to me that in THIS age, the forsaken had to go to SG to talk to the DO or wait for SH. But it sounds like in the AoL he could talk to them whenever and where ever they were. Why shouldn't the Nae'Blis be able to hear him where ever he is in this age, especially since the DO is growing stronger.

The eyes still have me. I can see how they directly relate to the Dark Prophesy found at the end of ToM. I tend to think they are the tell of those dedicated to the shadow. Kinda like a grey man who gives up his soul. Those dedicated still have their soul, but are dead inside.

tvssarma: 2010-12-30

I don't know, what purpose does two of DO avatars serve at the same time?

We know that SH is an avatar of DO and is in control of the chosen, why in the world does the DO need another avatar in Moridin to do the same thing.

The Immortal One: 2011-01-02

I agree with Brother of Battles here: Also, the difference Perrin see's in Ishy's eyes was probably just the Saa he has from using the True power.

Perrin couldn't actually see Ishamael's eyes from so far away; it was just another trick of the memory that those early dreams had on the three boys. He was just asking himself "What was odd about that guy's eyes? I know I've met him before, but where? And why do I almost remember that there is something odd about his eyes?"

Just another trick of the memory; Perrin couldn't quite remember his earlier dreams, but he knew there was something odd. He knew there was a memory, he just couldn't remember it.

And as for: So, we have 3 Forsaken, but one key difference between them. Only one of the Forsaken, Ishamael, has an oddity about him. The eyes.

Well, we have always known that Ishamael's eyes were odd. They contained flames. Later it was determined that the flames were simply a more advanced version of the saa from using the True Power.

Homeschool: 2011-01-04

ToM Writings pg 117-120

"Moridin scowled, then hesitated, glancing to the side. At nothing. I am to leave you without punishment, for now."

"Had that been a communication directly from the Great Lord? As far as she knew, all Chosen in this age had to go to him in Shayol Ghul to receive orders. Or at least suffer a visit from that horrid creature Shaidar Haran."

I have a different explanation. We know that Myrdraal travel through shadow in some fashion, unexplained in all of Aginor's experiments. In ToM, two of the maddened Asha'man saw them in shadows around them. While this may have been simply the effects of the taint on their mind, it may also have been the taint attuning them to the shadow, and making it possible for them to see THROUGH shadow and into the plane where Myrdraal dwell. If Shaidar Haran is a Myrdraal, he also possesses this power - couldn't the gifts of the Dark One (and/or shadow on his mind) enable Moridin to see through this odd transition, and communicate with Shaidar Haran, even when not physically present? Perhaps Graendal's remark is simply intended to clue us in to the possibility of Shaidar Haran being present without physically being there? Additionally, perhaps Nae'blis is simply that - desired because it is a "gift" of the Dark One, but not understood truly by the Chosen; a gift of being infused with taint without losing one's self-awareness.

Regarding the eyes, I'm still convinced that these people have been turned. The dead eyes have never been seen previously, paralleling neither the gray men (who are automatons that are difficult to see) nor Ishamael/Moridin (who had visible changes in their eyes.) Clearly their soul is not gone, like the gray men; and they are not using the one power, due to the absence of saa. Not even being darkfriends would explain it, since everywhere else, darkfriends look just like everybody else. This is unmistakably something new.

Also consider, in the early books a huge deal was made of 13x13, and then... nothing. Not dealt with, not explained, just gone. Robert Jordan has not included anything of significance without reason. He had a plan for it. The only explanation for the silence is Robert Jordan preparing for it to appear unexpectedly later.

One last point - the dead eyes were not mentioned until ToM. Consider that, before then, Taim was having his private lessons, but with the likes of Torval and Rochaid, who were clearly darkfriends. Not until ToM has he started turning others, obviously against their will (else they'd have been aligned with him prior.) Consider what happened in tGS, and prior to ToM: the purge of the White Tower. Dozens of Black Ajah, dead or fled, and most unaccounted for. It's not unlikely that some were sent to Taim to assist in the 13x13, since a mass absence would no longer be noticed, and he could easily conceal and protect them from detection by the White Tower. Where else in the world would the White Tower be afraid to go?

A good theory, but I think a few points have too much evidence opposing them.

bgrishinko: 2011-01-05

It seems to me that your theory is reaching just a bit... The good news is I can follow your logic, I just believe that your logic is completely flawed. Just because eyes are mentioned, doesn't mean it has significant meaning with any other odd eyes ever mentioned. Even in Real Life, we can often explain people and get a feeling from their eyes. Kind eyes, conniving eyes, scary eyes, honest/dishonest eyes... it doesn't take a super power to understand eyes show off a part of your soul.

About the 13x13 trick, it is said that it turns people to the shadow by making them the worst versions of themselves possible. They are still 100% themselves, just with every ounce of good sucked out. I'd say there would be a huge change in their countenances, specifically in their eyes if this happened.

PerrinMcBeardy: 2011-01-06

SEMINOLES, thanks for the Theory! This is something I've long been pondering, and it's good now to discuss it with all the new information from ToM.

When you said, "something much more sinuous then that is taking place," you meant to say sinister, right?

Also, I don't have my book in front of me. In the following quote, was the all-caps section your addition, or was it written that way in the text?

Once Rand had known this man only as Baalzamon.

I watched you die, Isha..."THAT IS NOT MY NAME."

I am known as Moridin now.

If that was in the text, that would seem a huge clue that the Dark One is indeed speaking now directly through Moridin, since only the Dark One (or the Creater possibly in EotW) ever uses all caps when speaking.

As for Shaidar Haran, it may be that he's no longer be the avatar. We haven't seen him since he chastised Masaana in Knife of Dreams (right?). I think as the Dark One's power has grown within Moridin, this other avatar is no longer important. Moridin is a much better avatar, since his power does not wane the way Shaidar Haran's does when away from the bore.

I believe it possible that Ishamael did know of some of the Dark prophesies as part of his work over the last 3000 years, and not necessarily directly from the Dark Lord. Moridin does not say that none new, however his words were, "not to many others, not even the chosen." This shows that either Ishamael did not in fact ever know anything about them, or else Ishamael considered himself as more than simply a chosen (at least as long as he's known the Dark prophesies).

About the two men growing and Shrinking when Rand cut the “steel-black” wires around Ishamael, you didn't come right out and say what I think you were hinting, but I think it could have been showing that after Rand severed the black cords, the human form of Ishamael grew and the form/power of the Dark One in him diminished. This would seem to suggest that even in the incarnation of Ishamael some of the Dark One was inside him. Maybe this becomes possible out of extreme access or use of the True Power, or maybe it was a strange result of being only partly trapped, or it may even be necessary to take the Dark One into yourself to be granted immortality as Ishamael has known it. When RJ talks about the Dark One giving True Power users his "boon," granting them longer life (see below), maybe something of him comes with it.

@Juan, yes [use of the True Power] does cause death. Here is the quote from RJ on using the True Power and Saa:

These saa are stigmata caused by a linkage to the Dark One. And eventually the effect is to become all fire eyes. You no longer have eyes visible to other people. If they're looking into your eyes, they seem to be looking into caverns of flame that stretch to infinity. And when you open your mouth they see another cavern of flame that stretches to infinity. Because you've reached at that point the ultimate level of this usage and quite possibly, if you've at this point not been granted immortality, you're on your way to death. Not madness, but you're on your way to death. So it's sort of a race. The Dark One has given you this boon, but if you use it very much, then you'd better hope he is willing to give you another boon, because if he doesn't give you the second boon then you're dead. Some of the Forsaken have expressed discomfort with the fact that Ishamael and Moridin are so free with using the True Power.

@HEAVYTABBS Even when Rand destroys the seals, the dark one will not yet be completely free, since he wasn't completely free before the bore was closed in the age of legends. I'm pretty sure that when he is completely free, then all creation will have been unmade. Either it will be unmade by his freeing or else his freeing will completely destroy what’s left of creation (the Pattern).

@Terez I agree with you about the wording of the dark prophesy. The "for" means that the dark one will take their eyes because their souls have bowed to him, but that doesn't mean that the argument SEMINOLES made is not a good one (that a person's soul having been given to the Dark One is evident in their eyes).

Are you saying in your response that you don't think that people in the Black Tower have been forced to the shadow by the 13x13 technique?

You said, "Kash had probably already been trained to channel when he arrived at the Black Tower. Even if they really did get stronger, we know that Moridin is using vacuoles, so it's not all that surprising or unexplained to the reader. In any case, there is no evidence that anyone has actually gotten stronger, and I believe your case against the obvious turning-by-13x13 is very weak."

Whether or not being forced to the Shadow is giving them any knowledge or strength can be debated, although it seemed that the men talking in the quotes above believed some men had grown stronger and more skilled very quickly, not that they had arrived at the tower already strong and skilled as you say. As for Vacuoles, as far as we know they can only be used to trap a person’s soul for use in controlling them. There is no evidence that the soul can then be transferred into another person from the Vacuole. Are you arguing that Moridin found a cache of Vacuoles filled with Age of Legends dark friend souls and he is using them to transmigrate AoL souls to new bodies? That is a much more farfetched explanation than the previously foreshadowed 13x13 soul twisting technique, which Brandon referred to here: The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

Q: Have any characters we’ve seen been converted to the Shadow via the 13 Myrddraal/13 channelers method? Has this method been used at the Black Tower?

A: RAFO (wow the first question and I got RAFO’d). But he did go on to say that this is a ‘gun on the mantle’, which refers to an old saying that ‘when you put a gun on the mantle in the first act, it needs to be used by the third’.

It seems very evident to me that Tarna has been turned and likely Javindra as well, and Norly was positive that Mezar was no longer himself. Do you believe that their strange behavior could mean something other than being turned to the shadow? You mentioned grey men, but nothing in the following quote suggests that at all. Sorry if I misspell the names, I'm working off the audio book right now.

"It's not really Messar. Oh, it has Messar's face right enough, but it's not really him. I could see it in his eyes. Trouble is, whatever the thing is, it has Messar's memories. Talks right like him, but the smile is wrong. All wrong.

Andral shivered. "It has to be him, Norly"

"It ain't, I promise you that"

"But"

"It just aint," the stout man said.

And a bit later Andral notes it for himself:

As he walked he noted Messar, hair graying at the sides. Skin a Domoni copper, standing with a group of lackeys. Messar had never been one who smiled easily. Andral nodded to him, meeting his eyes, and he saw what Norly had seen. Something was deeply wrong, something not quite alive inside those eyes. This didn't seem to be a man but a parody of one. A shadow stuffed inside human skin.

There is nothing here about Mezar being "forgettable" or "plain" the way previous grey men have always been described. I think it likely that the frequent and blunt references to people behaving strangely, which is evident mostly in their eyes and smile, is a hammer-over-the-head kind of clue that people are being turned to the shadow forcibly. What benefit would a channeler think to get from becoming a grey man. That seems much more likely to be the last resort of someone with no hope. People who willingly go to the shadow don't behave strangely when they go of their own choice, but someone forced to the shadow has been corrupted and others should notice the change. On a side note, I remember nothing that says that only channelers can be turned.

Here are the quotes regarding Pevara's reaction Tarnas change:

Last night Tarna had agreed that it was time to leave. She'd worked with Pevara on going to Javindra.

"Taim has locked down the black tower, Pevara said calmly, sitting on her bed in the small circular chamber. “We now need his permission to leave. He said it off handedly, as if it weren't really meant to stop us, just a rule he'd forgotten to give us a blanket exception to.

"Likely that's just what it was," Tarna said. "I'm sure it's nothing."

Pavara fell still. What?

She tried again. "Javindra still irrationally thinks he will change his mind on letting us bond full Asha Man. It's time to bond Dedicated and leave, but she's hinted that she'll remain regardless of my intentions. I want you to speak to her."

"Actually," Tarna said, continuing to write, "I've been thinking on what we discussed last night. Perhaps I was hasty. There is much to learn here, and there is the matter of the rebels outside. If we leave, they get to bond Asha Man, which should not be allowed."

The woman looked up, and Pavara froze. There was something different in Tarna's eyes, something cold. She'd always been a distant one, but this was worse. Tarna smiled, a grimice that looked completely unnatural on her face, like the smile on the lips of a corps. She turned back to writing. Something was very, very wrong here, Pevara thought.

@HOMESCHOOL I think your comments are interesting, especially this:

perhaps Nae'blis is...desired because it is a "gift" of the Dark One, but not understood truly by the Chosen; a gift of being infused with taint without losing one's self-awareness.

This reminded me of the quote from the beginning of Lord of Chaos when the Dark One says to Demandred, "WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?" I thought at the time that it was just the DO tempting Demandred, but the phrasing seems a bit strange, and seems to hint at a sacrifice. It is obvious from the beginning of the series that all the chosen want to be Nae'Blis, so why would the DO ask the question unless there was some greater change or sacrifice implied. RJ also used the word "BE" Nae'Blis instead of "be named" Nae’Blis. This could hint that becoming Nae'Blis makes you something else, rather than simply being first in line of power with authority over the Chosen.

@BGRISHINKO here is the quote from RJ

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

mtspit: 2011-01-09

obviously ishamael is moridin. Rand recognizes him from his lews therin awareness, as well as the other forsaken who know who he is (having known him before being sealed in the bore). to deny this is foolish. as for the comment about the changes in channelers at the black tower...remember that when thirteen myrdraal are used to convert people to the dark one by channeling through them into a person who hasnt turned to the dark one? this is what is happening!!! blood and ashes and double duh!! oh yeah and if ya didnt notice SHAIDAR HARAN SHOWED UP TO PUNISH GRAENDAL IN TOWERS AT THE END!

Ehentalix: 2011-01-18

Moridin?" she asked hesitantly.

He ignored her. [...] Waved for her to approach.

"Where did these prophecies come from?"

"They have long been known to me, "But not to many others, not even the chosen."

Has it occured to you that Moridin/Ishamael was INSANE? It is stated after all. I could quote the relevant passage, but I don't have my books readily at hand right now. However, it is known that at a point, Ishamael thought HE was the DO. It would make sense for him to refer to 'The Chosen' as if he were not one.

"I will lend you another tool, the man with two souls. But he is MINE, just as that spike is mine. Just as you are mine. Do you understand?"

She nodded, the room seemed to be growing darker. That voice of his...it sounded, just faintly, like that of the Great Lord."

Once again, INSANE! However, there is a bit of truth to this. As the Nae'blis, he IS in control of the other Chosen. This could also explain why he sounded like the Great Lord.

Myth: 2011-02-17

I am at school so lack the books. I will try to be brief and only comment on the eyes portion. Therefore I have two comments. First I will not say whether the Mordin theory is correct or not. But in regards to that prophecy and the thing about eyes I believe it means what has been stated, those who willingly bow, as well as those forcibly taken manifest their loyalty through the eyes. But also keep in mind SH is a Mydral. They have throughout the series inspired debilitating fear through the eyes holes. If their is a reference to an "avatar" who has eyes of power of some sort I think it might be him. However, I think it simply means that those who follow the DO can be identified through the eyes, both those willing and forced.

Second, I find the eye reference interesting considering that Rand now causes physical pain to DF when he looks in their eyes. Likewise, Perrin has golden wolf eyes and Mat has now lost one of his eyes. Could this all be coincidence that this thing about eyes and knowing the DO's followers that way is mentioned when each of the guys now has something unique with their eyes?

Wheel Philosoph: 2011-02-21

"And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!" -The Prophecies of the Shadow

This does not seem like the entire prophecy. It could be that Rand's eyes are the eyes spoken of in the Prophecy. He being Rand. Darkfriends can not stand to LOOK at Rand with their EYES. It could be that Rand has taken our (The Darkfriend's) eyes from them.

Plus, the Prophecies of the Shadow have been around for so long. SMALL, SMALL punctuation changes could mean THE WORLD to something like this.

Instead of: "Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!" It could very well be: "Let the screams begin. O followers of the Shadow, beg for your destruction!"

Look at the meanings of both. It is VERY unlikely that RJ or Sanderson would intentionally do something like that, however both of the things I have mentioned could very likely serve against the Shadow as much as with it.

Moruitelda: 2011-02-23

I think you're a bit too dismissive of the 13 x 13 theory (which doesn't even necessarily contradict your theory, here). You say that it's "mere compulsion," but it's not - Darkfriend channelers can use the weave of Compulsion, but the 13 x 13 conversion is something more. Based on what's in the books, there's no reason to presume that the 13 x 13 does anything less than "stuff shadow into a man's skin."

The remainder of the theory is interesting.

Elanor: 2011-02-24

I was thinking about eyes in the series and something struck me while rereading Winter's Heart: how interesting it is that cultures as different as the Seanchan and the Aiel have phrases about eyes and the DO. In chapter 21 of Winter's Heart ("A Matter of Property"), Egeanin, shaken by Bethamin's revelations, thinks: "She was riding close on a lee shore, and Soulblinder himself rode that gale, coming to steal her eyes" and a bit later (on the same page): "The Dark One was coming to steal her eyes."

As for the Aiel, it is Loial in TEotW (Chapter 36, "Web of the pattern") who quotes the first Aiel saying of the series: "Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."

The Aiel "Sightblinder" is said to come to "steal the eyes" in Seanchan. Jordan has very carefully woven a net of eye imagery; it suffuses the series. As I said in post 3, I do believe that the series is 'circular' just like time is circular in the series (that's the snake biting its tail, the ouroboros, imagery). The series began with "The Eye of the World" and, in the end, the Eye will have its counterpart, if only symbolically. Maybe a foreshadowing moment is to be found in The Great Hunt (Chapter 20, "Saidin"), when Rand is mesmerized by the giant Sa'angreal statue, he:

"...reached for the core of who he was, the core of what he was...

...will not...
"Rand." The song filled him, filled the emptiness.
...touched the stone, hot from a pitiless sun, cold from a merciless night...
...not...
Light filled him, blinded him.
"Till shade is gone," he mumbled, "till water is gone..."
Power filled him. He was one with the sphere.
"...into the Shadow with teeth bared..."
The power was his. The Power was his.
"...to spit in Sightblinder's eye..."
Power to Break the World.
"...on the last day!" It came out as a shout, and the void was gone."

At the Last Battle, on the 'last day' of this Age, it is by reaching to the very core of who he is that Rand will win, not only 'spitting in Sightblinder's eye' but breaking his dark spell over the world as he broke the spell the great sa'angreal wove on him that day - and the final threads of the eye imagery/symbolism will be woven in that moment. (And if there is none, "I'll bite my eye" as we say in French ;-) )

Lorcin: 2011-02-27

When Mat gave his eye to the Alfen they were able to sense the pattern turning around him. "How it twists around him" and "I can taste fate itself"

Could the eyes LITERALY be the windows into his soul (the old saying the eyes are windows into the soul)

Could it be that by offering his eyes or one of them (and therefore part of his soul) could Rand seal the Dark One. This would explain why the Fisher has only one eye.

this is all just a theory so feel free to criticize.

Moruitelda: 2011-02-28

Lorcin, I think it's more likely that he'd just made a decision and given a sacrifice that, by allowing Moiraine to escape, was changing the fate of the world. The pattern was beginning to twist because of his actions right then.

Lorcin: 2011-03-01

Moruitelda: why would they be able to feel? it remember that their lair is outside the pattern the pattern partialy guides his actions and would have already woven that decision in (if it is as important as you say it was which I supect it is)

But your right it could have been that this decision was instomental but that still bring us back to why only they could feel it (Thom felt nothing). But there are sources that claim that you could feel the pattern turning around Hawking (when he was alive of course) but you have to remember that that source could have been baise and an event like this is never mentioned around Rand(who is far stronger).

T.Y for the critisim and sorry for any spelling mistakes.

Macster: 2011-03-10

While I am not sure I can subscribe to the main tents of this theory (I do think that as Nae'blis Moridin has far more power than the other Forsaken, even compared to when he was Ishamael, and that power definitely seems to be growing), I have to agree with one thing. You are definitely onto something with all the eye imagery. This is Jordan we are talking about, master of symbolism and mythology--he wouldn't include such a motif and not have it mean anything or pan out, particularly when eyes are one of the oldest symbols in the world. The fact eyes are important to both the Dark and the Light makes this even more likely.

Also...I may be one of the only ones to think this, but I believe Terez is wrong to dismiss your dismissal of the 13+13 theory about what is going on at the Black Tower. When I first read the scene with Tarna, I did not immediately think of the 13+13 trick, I went "Oh CRAP, the Dark One is so close to getting free he can actually possess people now!!" And then seeing that footer prophecy about the Dark One "taking our eyes and skin", combined with the bit about the Asha'man being a "shadow stuffed inside human skin"...well it seemed obvious to me that the prophecy was talking about what we saw at the Black Tower. Just because an interpretation is obvious doesn't mean it's wrong. Just because the 13+13 trick seems like a massively delayed Chekhov's Gun doesn't mean we have to look to that for an explanation when the footer prophecy gives us a ready one--that the Dark One is literally possessing or corrupting people.

However, just to reconcile both sides, as has been stated it could be the 13+13 trick is the *manner* in which the Dark One is doing this eye/soul/flesh-claiming/inhabiting. As more evidence of this, note that it was said Semirhage discovered this trick during the War of Power--i.e., when the Bore had been drilled and there was no seal. It may be the reason we haven't seen the trick used until now because it can only be used when the Dark One is not sealed, or the seal is so weak as to be irrelevant. So it was used before the Bore was sealed, and now that the seals are so weak it can finally be used again--to allow the Dark One to make souls bow, flesh serve, and lips praise, through the 13+13 trick twisting people. If that is the case, that would explain why this scene was so horrifying to us--since even beyond what it does to the people in question, the fact it shows how close the Dark One is to breaking free, and what he will do to everyone if he has the chance, is truly stomach-churning.

Lastly, may I just say that I love the symbolism and alchemy you bring up, Elanor! Especially the link to the (golden) apples and Almen *kicks self for not seeing the obvious "All men"* and the references to eyes and the Eye of the World, Rand as a metaphorical one to bring the series full circle (heh heh!), and the dragon/serpent/Wheel of Time conflation of images. Brilliant stuff! And all the balance with Perrin's eyes and Mat losing an eye to go along with Rand's Darkfriend-burning gaze...I guess the eyes really do have it (*groan*) and we'll be seeing both sides of this play out during the Last Battle. Will make it even more epic and emotionally satisfying, I'm sure.

Lorcin: 2011-03-11

Great comment Macster and I only have 1 question?

Whats Chekhov's Gun?

Lorcin is confused.

Macster: 2011-03-11

Take a look at Perrinmcbeardy's comment @15. Sanderson is quoted, mentioning the 13+13 trick as being a "gun on the mantel". It's a reference to the playwright Anton Chekhov, who said in paraphrase, "If you have a gun on the mantel in the first act, it had better have been fired by the second." Basically, it's talking about conservation of plot detail--a detail should only be mentioned in the plot if it's significant, so whenever something is conspicuously brought up (like the 13+13 trick) it serves as foreshadowing that it will appear again later.

NeverEndingLurker: 2011-03-16

In relation to the real world, the 13+13 trick seems to reflect a practice of brainwashing, just with the one power.

As well, the dark prophecies themselves, in describing how the DO takes their eyes, lips and skin really hit on the characteristics of ideological extremism, because it's VERY similar to the descriptions of Masema the Prophet. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

teilak: 2011-03-26

@Perrinmcbeardy-- Sheriam to Egwene in TDR about the 13 + 13 trick "Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."

now my comments on the 13 + 13 and myrddraal eyes

Aginor states that he believes myrddraal exist "slightly out of phase with time and reality." and this is why their capes and such do not blow in the wind and they are able to ride shadows. I always assumed, and this is just theory, that the alternate reality that they would therefore also partly exist in is the reality of the DO's prison. I think this also accounts for their sight without and the terrifying stare of their eyes because the DO is able to project some of his presence through their souls by way of their eyes. It seems to me that those who are impervious to the fear of a myrddraals stare are those who have completely conquered their fear of death and the Lord of the Grave. It is also this projection of the DOs presence through myrddraal eyes that is utilized in the 13 + 13 trick. I always imagined that the thirteen dreadlords would be channeling through the back of the myrddraals heads so that their weaves would come out through their eyes and all converge in the eyes of the person being turned. I think that this causes a focusing and distillation of the DOs presence that's in the myrddraal and projects it into the person being turned allowing the DO to "steal their eyes" and through that their soul. This process of stealing their soul is what allows the DO to turn them into "a shadow stuffed inside human skin."

That's how I always viewed the 13 + 13 trick working. What does everyone else think of this?

Exigency: 2011-04-29

I agree with many of the criticisms already voiced, such as the redundancy of two avatars. It's a great start and very thought provoking, I just think it needs more flushing out.

@Homeschool
Regarding your Myrddraal piece: First of all, there was only one Asha'man who saw them (I think it was Naeff), the other saw evil-looking shadows, it's never said that they're Myrddraal. Also, once Nynaeve healed Naeff they Myrddraal were gone, they were a manifestation of his madness, not some ability gained by the taint. Furthermore, the taint was the Dark One retaliating against the male Aes Sedai who sealed him away, he wouldn't give them the ability to thwart one of the greatest advantages of any of his servants. As far as Moridin talking to Shaidar Haran, Graendal didn't hear anything. As far as I know, neither Moridin nor Shaidar Haran have the ability to communicate nonverbally, so I'm more inclined to think that it was direct communication with the DO. Additionally, if Shaidar Haran was there to say that Graendal was not to be punished, why would he just stay in the shadows?

Your eyes theory:
I think that you're confusing the issues with the Black Tower and that of Rand examining the nobles in Tear. First of all, you're forgetting the change that Rand went through at the peak of Dragonmount. Yes, darkfriends still look the same as everyone else, but you're discounting the fact that Rand has expelled the darkness that was building up in him and he can now recognize darkfriends by either a) seeing something in their eyes or b)forcing them to look him in the eyes and noting their reaction. The eyes at the Black Tower are another matter altogether, and having read the theories on forceful conversion I'm inclined to agree with that.

Oden: 2011-05-01

Moridin beeing more than an elevated forsaken fits with RJ's use of myths. Ishamael, betrayer of hope, is not far from the fall of Lucifer. He was one of the arch angels and is now known as the devil, at least in some christian cultures and in movies.

OT
You can also say that the dragon is Lucifer because Lucifer means light-bearer or light-bringer, in latin, and it's said to be derived from morning star. I think the name is all we need to say that Lucifer is the dragon.

Light-bringer - Champion of the Light
Morning star - Lord of the morning

Lorcin: 2011-05-01

Just to add to Exigency's excellent post there is also only one fisher in the board game( sorry it's late)

great post

GB: 2011-05-02

hooey and bunk!

keemlin: 2011-07-11

intriguing.

no what intrigues me is...the part about people in the black tower learning with great speed and skill. don't grady and neald do the same around perrin..

the weave for power forged weapons.

so i think there is a ta'veren at black tower....maybe taim is ta'veren.

and JUST WHY can the shadow NOT have any taveren?

Kamaul: 2011-07-29

The Shadow can have ta'veren. But the Pattern is trying to fight against the Shadow right now and it's not likely that the Pattern would give the Shadow such a good advantage. There might be Dark ta'veren when the Pattern is trying to suppress the Light.

What I think about the sudden increase is that those who come back changed are simply given the title of full Asha'man. Remember that men cannot tell each others strength just by looking at them like women. The only way to tell a person's strength is by having them hold all the Power they can.

Galadare: 2011-08-01

The Shadow can't have ta'veren for the same reason ta'veren exist. Ta'veren appear when the pattern needs to be protected or corrected while the Dark One's stated goal is the destruction of the pattern and all the work of the creator.

With that in mind, why would he offer the nae'blis power except as bait for the power-hungry wanabes that congregate under his banner. It seems to me that what sets the nae'blis apart from the chosen is the gradual consumption of the nae'blis' soul by the Dark One. Seminoles is on to something here. Why else would Moridin be able to use the True Power exclusively (maybe he's deep enough into the role of nae'blis that he can no longer touch Saidin) and live to tell the tale.

Cenire Telamon: 2011-11-09

Hello Seminoles and other users of Theoryland!

After reading through the theory and replies I agree with the eye change theory.

In the case of Ishamael, before his death by Rand, his proximity and consant usage of the DO's power was directly manifest in his eyes. Before his death his eyes and mouth were of flame, the sure sign of near death via proximity to the DO.

Looking at this from the DO's perspective, he can use his proxies to death as he can just tranmigrate their useful souls into new bodies. We are not sure if the DO can give new properties to that soul or body, but in the case of Saidar Haran he has given adavnced 'powers' to a creature by linking with it. It's not too far of a stretch to believe that he has granted greater knowledge to Moridin in his 'rebirth'. Also it is only fitting that the shadows champion should be reborn as the dragon was, as mentioned before because their souls have been eternally linked. Why would Mordin have not inherited a kind of advanced knowledge in the same way that Rand has. From RJ's comments about the forces of light being so far behind the dark, simple conjecture says tha the DO has prepared for 'uber Rand', with his transmigration and changing of Moridin.

Another point along with others mentioned about eyes (for example Perrin's and Matt's) is that before Rand's transformation, was that throughout the books there was a hardening to his eyes, yes his character, but it was visibly manifest in his eyes. This hardening was him walking the path to his own destruction upon Dragonmount, therefore his proximity to the shadow, was another victory or draw for the shadow. Obviously the lack of total destruction on Dragonmount was also seen in the 'lightening' of his face and eyes. I'm not sure of the exact quotes as I am not close to my books but I'm sure if people search the text, they will be there.

So, yeah, I think that eyes are a major clue to 13x13 transformations and that we did see them in ToM, whether this has been done at the BT, in vacuoles or elsewhere will be a RAFO. But my thoughts are all for vacuoles, why bother mentioning them at all unless they were going to be a factor in aMoL?

Sorry if that has been a bit garbled, I have been following TL for a log time but this is my first post. Hello Everyone!

FarDareisMaiGrandma: 2012-03-04

Hi everyone! My first post here will be a short one. Sorry I don't have my books handy so I can't give exact quotes, but I am sure that I read that strength and ability in men grow in sudden leaps, unlike the women who show a gradual increase unless they are "forced" as Egwene was.

edubz1987: 2012-04-19

I remember reading somewhere that Moridin/Ishamael was angry because he could just have easily been the dragon... I never fully understood that statement.

Kamaul: 2012-04-22

You actually read that Demandred was extremely angry, not Ishmael. Demandred was born a day after Lews Therin, and in every test, Lews Therin was slightly better than Demandred. This made Demandred so angry that he ran to Shayol Ghul. So, if Lews Therin didn't exist, Demandred would have ended up being the Dragon.

Waxer: 2012-04-23

The clue that Demandred is in Murandy is he had the book by the old general copied for Talmanes.

codetoast: 2012-04-23

"And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise."

Interesting to note that the saa that affected ishameal's eyes to the point where they were in flames, also affected his lips/mouth. I think it gives more weight to this being a throwback to Ishameal's

In the context of your theory, what do you think is happening with Rand's eyes starting in KoD.

Samhain: 2012-09-10

Moridin is a blended form: Ishamael, Shadar Haran, and the DO. Have you ever seen Clark Kent in the same room as Superman?