hardcore fan freaks of the wheel of time
Theoryland Resources
WoT Interview Search
Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.
Wheel of Time News
An Hour With Harriet
2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.
The Bell Tolls
2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
Theoryland Community
Members: 7653
Logged In (0):
Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,
Theoryland Tweets
Theories
Recent Comments
Last ten comments at Theoryland.
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodIf DO was able to alter reality with power...by Amaentes
Callandor's PurposeJust wanted to comment on something in reg...by Joram
Mat's luck is caused by the daggerSorry to necro this thread, but I was just...by Joram
The Real SlayerI was just thinking that since the Finns l...by jimbop79
Verin Compelled AlannaThis was alluded to early on, but let me s...by jimbop79
When the Dark One winsAlthough the books are over here is what m...by pjrobertson
Moghedien Raises the DeadThis has a lot of spoilers, so please, if ...by NaeblisSunshine
Mat & the Horn of ValereWow, found a link to this while purging my...by shaihalud
Breaking the SealsNow see, Rand isn't the only one who wants...by MMustafa
Nakomi's Soul Is BrownIn the epilogue as rand is carrying Moridins ...by Waxer
Recent Theories
Last ten theories at Theoryland.
Padan Fain, Roommates With the Dark Oneby aNewAge
The Real Slayerby Cabadrin
How the Bore Will Be Sealedby Tremalking
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodby Great Lord of the Dark
Callandor's Purposeby RealAshaman
Rand and the True Powerby Zombie Sammael
Caemlyn's Battleby 1eyedfool
Moghedien Raises the Deadby Truthless
Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul
Let me die forever!by Kamaul
Home | Index | Archives | Help
he Taint-Mind-Body Connection and Control
by JakOShadows: 2005-11-22 | 3.14 out of 10 (7 votes)
Recent Categories: Rand and Lews Therin
Soul - Mind - saidin
Body
I can picture this in my head but it is very hard to explain. And I also have a very lousy flow chart too, but maybe it will help. LTT and Rand are connected through the soul and mind via saidin and the barrier degradation between memories. But the body only responds to the initial personality, because that's who it knows itself as. If you had memories of a previous life in your head, you would still think of yourself as whom you are in this life right. But what's happening is that as the barrier degrades, the mind is thinking of itself more as LTT than it is Rand, but there is still enough of him there to maintain control of his body, whereas saidin and the mind are more of the direct link. The body would only be the indirect link.
And I believe that if saidin had not been cleansed, Rand would have eventually lost himself and LTT would have taken over, and thats what would involve him going mad. And what exactly happens when they go mad can vary to fears and similar stuff, but the mind loses its grip on reality due to the loss of the original personality the person was born with. Only with Rand, there are very strong memories tied to very strong beliefs so it would stand to reason that what would drive him crazy would be a construct of LTT.
But we all have arrived at that conclusion, what I'm talking about is how this would affect the mind's connection to the body. The body is the last link in the chain in my mind. Because the barrier degradation destroys the barrier so as to not block out memories and the thoughts based off the memories from the present in your mind. But from there, the body has to be influenced after that. So actually, that would be the last to go right. You could make a case that as soon as you lose control of your body, there is nothing you can do to stop the madness. So that would be why LTT can't control his body, but can control saidin and invade his thoughts so strongly still.
Soul - Mind - Saidin
Body
Now, some people may think that if saidin with the taint can be induce by a reverse flow, why wouldn’t the link the body degrade somewhat in the same fashion, by relinquishing it’s direct control to the original personality. But if you look at my new flow chart I have drawn up there (JakO, this is Tam, the flowchart doesn't process well. Send me a diagram, and maybe I can work an image in of what you are thinking), I have now reversed the arrows to represent the path the induction of the taint on saidin. Now, you notice that the induction arrow from the body to the mind; taint would not be induced that way because the mind makes use of the body. The body couldn’t induce saidin because the body doesn’t make use of and actively control the mind through its link, like the mind would make use of saidin.
So now, let’s look at the Rand/LTT split personality problem here. The reason why his bodily control would be the last connection to be taint, is because of the fact that there is still some of the original memories and beliefs Rand had as this life. And as long as that is not overwhelmed by the LTT personality, it will respond to him. And now that saidin has cleansed, I believe that the LTT personality will never gain control of the body, unless the merging prophesy is based on the LTT/Rand split personality.
Now I imagine another counterpoint would be that, as Callandor put it, LTT and Rand are only one person. But we have to remember that memories have belief and thought connected to them. And when there are memories of a tragic life 3,000+ years ago, that has to create a little bit of conflict of thoughts and beliefs. So that is how you could have different parts of you wanting to do different things. And since the mind is what controls saidin, when those thoughts and beliefs are contradicting, they will both want conflict results sometimes, hence the struggle over saidin at times. The only way Rand could ever learn to cope with it is to personally deal with his memories from before and sort them out, in a sort of fashion. Gain some less tragic thoughts and beliefs from them, and as a result, the difference between thoughts and beliefs of the two lives will only feel like one once he has completely embraced it.
So in short, the struggle that goes on in Rand’s head between two seeming different personalities, is never going to happen in the body. Rather, it would have been the last to go if the taint had had its full effects. One good example of this is when Fedwin Morr goes crazy at the end of tPoD. His body is now responding to the mind of a child, which means that he completely lost his mind already. Once the original personality is gone, the alternate personality can then take control. Rand’s body functions and control will remain his for the rest of the book.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2006-02-07
Typically, I wouldn't post your theory without quotes, but you reference the barrier theory, this being connected to it. It wouldn't make sense to re-quote everything. So, here is my response to your idea. How do you reconcile your belief, JakO, with what Rand experienced in T'A'R when fighting Rahvin. I agree, this could have been Rahvin, but it just as easily could have been LTT attempting to take over the body, and this is pretty early in on the effects of the taint. Of course, Rand was in T'A'R, when this occurred. It would seem the mind is the controlling factor of the body, and Rand almost lost it to LTT at that moment. Would he have been Rand, when he left T'A'R, or would he have been LTT? I know this may be an exception case, but in the context of your idea, I think it is a valid point to discuss.
Traveller: 2006-02-07
When Rand is fighting Rahvin, he sees another face that fits the desription of LTT, and Rand feels this man trying to take over his body, while LTT says about how he IS LTT, in Rand's head. Doesn't this suggest that LTT can possibly take control of his body, even if only with outside help?:
"He felt odd. Insubstantial. He raised his arm and stared. He could see the garden through the coatsleeve and arm as through mist. A mist that was thinning. When he glanced down, he could see the walk's paving stones through himself.
'No!' It was not his thought. An image began to coalesce. A tall dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown. 'I am Lews Ther-'."
Then later:
"The arm began to look darker, the fingers on the hand longer."
I suggest that what Rahvin was doing was making Rand all misty, then LTT saw his chance and that he was not simply able to try and control Rand's body, but that he was also changing Rand's body to his.
Bane Darkwulf: 2006-02-07
I think that it also has to do with the fact LTT has not controlled a body in 1000+ years, along with a difference in the body's form. LTT would have to learn the body's shape and Rand already knows it. I am not too good at explaining my thoughts, but what I mean is that if Mat were to switch bodies with Perrin, they would need some time to learn the bodies strengths and weaknesses. And he had Rand fighting him, so he couldn't really force the movements.
Eek: 2006-02-07
"I think that it also has to do with the fact LTT has not controlled a body in 1000+ years, along with a difference in the body's form. LTT would have to learn the body's shape and Rand already knows it. I am not too good at explaining my thoughts, but what I mean is that if Mat were to switch bodies with Perrin, they would need some time to learn the bodies strengths and weaknesses. And he had Rand fighting him, so he couldn't really force the movements."
Lews Therin is a memory of a former life, he hasn't been lying around somewhere. He has not even existed in some meanings. This should also mean that he could not been able "forget" how to move and so on.
Leafburner: 2006-02-07
"Rand’s body functions and control will remain his for the rest of the book."
I can't agree with this statement. I had some difficulty understanding exactly what your theory is, but I think I got the gist of it. I agree for the most part about the body being the last portion of a person to be consumed by the taint, but I cannot agree with the above line.
LTT has stolen the source from Rand on more than one occasion. If something serious enough occurred to give LTT desire to seize control over Rand and invest emotionally in that take-over, who's to say he couldn't become a more prevalent part of the personality?
I can't imagine the discovery of Taim as shadow-souled is going to be something taken lightly by LTT. If he lashes out in that moment - or any moment - I believe there is the chance Rand will lose the battle for the control of his mind and body.
Let's not forget that it may no longer be a two way battle for control of Rand's personality. Moridin I'm sure will throw his two cents worth in. Then Rand's also got Min, Avi, Elayne, Alanna, Mat and Perrin inside his head - Heck, talk about split personality! I believe one of the greatest challenges Rand is going to have to face during TG will be keeping a hold on his sanity. It has been such a prevalent theme and plot point for so long, I just cannot entertain the idea that "Rand's body functions and control will remain his for the rest of the book."
JakOShadows: 2006-02-09
I'm glad this theory finally got posted. I just wanted to clear up a few things that ya'll adressed here. First of all, as for LTT's ability to control Rand's body, I don't think its the lack of the ability, but the fact that Rand's body only recognizes the initial personality. For example, in KoD, when Rand is fighting the trollocs, LTT takes control of saidin but cannot control the body. Rand has to control his body for LTT. So I was just saying that the personality that originated in the body has precedence of the personality of the souls past life.
As for the fight with Rahvin, I don't remember exactly what happened and I don't have my books with me at college. But based on the rules of T'A'R, the mind body connection works quite differently. The mind projects the image if you are there in your sleep, and if you stay too long in t'a'r in body, then you lose your body completely. So then, as you said, if Rahvin tried to separate Rand's mind/soul from his body and succeeded it would create its own projection, even if it had no body to go back to. So as you said, when the link between the mind and body was weakened, that gave LTT the opening to project his image into t'a'r in place of Rand's. So, as I see it, it was the properties of t'a'r that allowed this to happen. And it is repeated several times by dreamwalkers and other people that if you go into t'a'r in person there is a great danger of a sane person to lose function of their body.
And as to everything else going on in Rand's head, I didn't take that into the equation here. I probably should have considering, but everything I proposed in the theory is just between LTT and Rand and his body. And when I said come to terms with it, I meant that the two personalities don't think like to different lives but one really long life with a long gap between events. And I think it is not likely to happen in one more book. LTT taking complete control of saidin in KoD make it seem like its even less likely to happen, but I was just making the point that, even if it is very rare, it is possible to manage to survive the taint on saidin. I do believe you make a very good point though. I guess I just want to keep my hopes up.
snakes-n-foxes: 2006-02-09
Something Tamyrlin said sparked a memory.
Here's a quote from FoH Ch : (Morraines letter to Rand)
"the two other paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and whn we next saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover."
Of course we can't be certain how Lanfear would have achieved this, but it's looking remarkably like it could have been done in the world of dreams (or mayb SG)
Callandor: 2006-02-09
**Now, since RJ has said there is one soul, we know that Callandor’s theory is correct, but he never fully explained why LTT can’t control Rand’s body, but can channel saidin.**
I have actually. It's because Lews Therin is fake. He's a creation by Rand to "maintain sanity" (yes, that does make sense, even though it makes Rand insane).
It's not Lews Therin channeling saidin. It's Rand. All of it, is really Rand. When Lews Therin talks, it's actually Rand talking to himself, but he's doing this through a second personality. Ever wondered why Lews Therin seems to be able to see out of Rand's head? Ever wonder why Lews Therin can have conversations with Rand? Ever wonder why Lews Therin's thoughts seem to so perfectly mirror Rand's at certain points? Ever wondered why Lews Therin continually rants and raves that Rand must kill such and such many many times, but then will start to say I must kill such and such?
Now you know. It's really Rand doing all of it. That's why Lews Therin cannot control Rand's body; it's really Rand controlling his body, and it's really Rand holding saidin even when "Lews Therin" is doing it.
But I thank you for saying my theory is correct ;)
**And I believe that if saidin had not been cleansed, Rand would have eventually lost himself and LTT would have taken over, and thats what would involve him going mad.**
Well, for sure, Rand would've rotted to death, anyway.
**Because the barrier degradation destroys the barrier so as to not block out memories and the thoughts based off the memories from the present in your mind.**
The barrier continues to weaken; I never say that it's completely destroyed.
**So in short, the struggle that goes on in Rand’s head between two seeming different personalities, is never going to happen in the body.**
I would agree.
**Rather, it would have been the last to go if the taint had had its full effects.**
That I don't agree with. The taint would've eventually killed Rand, but I don't think Lews Therin would've ever taken over Rand's body since they're one in the same -- it's like saying my right hand is going to take over my left hand.
**One good example of this is when Fedwin Morr goes crazy at the end of tPoD. His body is now responding to the mind of a child, which means that he completely lost his mind already.**
Begs the question whether a child can channel saidin, since Morr could still channel.
**LTT has stolen the source from Rand on more than one occasion.**
Not conclusively. We only know of one for sure instance.
JakOShadows: 2006-02-11
Callandor:
Thanks for some of the support. I just wanted to clarify a few things here. First of all, if ever refer to LTT and/or Rand, I am meaning the separate personalities that are in essence connected to his disjointed memories he has due to the taint. So for an easy reference I probably won't refer to them as the LTT personality and Rand personality, only LTT and Rand. You will notice I am lazy like that.
***That I don't agree with. The taint would've eventually killed Rand, but I don't think Lews Therin would've ever taken over Rand's body since they're one in the same -- it's like saying my right hand is going to take over my left hand."***
I see your point there, but again, the personalities are based off different memories, a way to sort everything, so to say. But different rationales of think can be drawn from the different experiences. For example, LTT having memories of killing Ilyena wants to always kill himself, he isn't focused on the LB in anyway. Whereas Rand doesn't have that memory so strongly, so he can focus better on his duty to fight at the LB. It isn't two different people, but Rand's mind is suffering from conflicting input, so it creates two personalities that think differently to compensate. So, in a way, its kind of paradoxical, because he's always the same person, but depending on the situation, sometimes the two personalities with conflict with each other. So in essence, he is fighting himself, due to his conflicting memories or the taint on saidin. And another thing about your point, what you are saying would apply to a normal person, but I wouldn't exactly call Rand normal either. As I proved above, mentally there are some extenuating circumstances connected with taint induced madness.
***Begs the question whether a child can channel saidin, since Morr could still channel.***
As a child, a person probably couldn't channel. But in Morr's situation, he probably had some fear as a child and had never gotten over it. So the taint brought that out somehow, and his mature mind revert to thinking like a child to mentally resolve the issue. But his mind is still matured enough to channel. So I don't necessarilly think of him as a child, but as a mature person thinking like a child. Like I said above, it may not make sense, but if you're channeling saidin and go crazy, you aren't exactly a normal situation either.
Callandor: 2006-02-11
**First of all, if ever refer to LTT and/or Rand, I am meaning the separate personalities that are in essence connected to his disjointed memories he has due to the taint. So for an easy reference I probably won't refer to them as the LTT personality and Rand personality, only LTT and Rand. You will notice I am lazy like that.**
I read your theory like that, but my entire point of the Barrier Degradation theory, is that Rand is actually controlling Lews Therin inadvertantly. Everything Lews Therin does is in reality coming from Rand.
**It isn't two different people, but Rand's mind is suffering from conflicting input, so it creates two personalities that think differently to compensate. So, in a way, its kind of paradoxical, because he's always the same person, but depending on the situation, sometimes the two personalities with conflict with each other.**
Which is why I would say Rand would've never lost control -- it's a personality that Rand made (Lews Therin) and he inadvertantly controls it. Saying Lews Therin would take control of Rand's body in this fashion, would be similar to saying Rand's going to take control of his body away from himself.
**So in essence, he is fighting himself, due to his conflicting memories or the taint on saidin.**
Which again is why I do not think Rand would've ever lost control of his body: he can't lose control of his body to himself. It's like your right hand and left hand going for a remote. Who cares which hand gets it, as long as you have the remote?
**And another thing about your point, what you are saying would apply to a normal person, but I wouldn't exactly call Rand normal either. As I proved above, mentally there are some extenuating circumstances connected with taint induced madness.**
I for one do not consider Rand normal -- he's messed up beyond analogy.
But the way his body and mind work is universal.
**So the taint brought that out somehow, and his mature mind revert to thinking like a child to mentally resolve the issue. But his mind is still matured enough to channel. So I don't necessarilly think of him as a child, but as a mature person thinking like a child.**
Which again brings about the question of: can a child channel saidin?
You have conflicting statements above. Morr's mind is both "mature" enough to channel, yet he's reverted back to the mind of a child. How does that work?
I'd say that a child cannot channel saidin simply because their connection to it is not present (they're body isn't old enough for the ability to present itself in them); but their mind seems to be able to handle it theoretically given the situation of Morr.
JakOShadows: 2006-02-12
***Which is why I would say Rand would've never lost control -- it's a personality that Rand made (Lews Therin) and he inadvertantly controls it. Saying Lews Therin would take control of Rand's body in this fashion, would be similar to saying Rand's going to take control of his body away from himself.***
Yes, I know what you are saying there. But you can't deny that LTT and Rand both have different goals. So if Rand loses control to LTT, even though its an alter ego he's created, Rand would not be able to carry out his goals as easily. For example, in KoD, when Rand is fighting the trollocs and the house catches on fire, LTT doesn't want to put out the fire. He has to ask Logain to do it since LTT has control. So he can't save the people in the house himself with LTT in control, even though it is still himself. So when I mean himself, I mean the original beliefs of Rand to save the people if possible and win the LB, which LTT does not share personally. So technically, yes, you are correct, but the beliefs they have are different, so I still think of them as different personalities trying to control one body. It's just a way of interpreting it, that's all.
***You have conflicting statements above. Morr's mind is both "mature" enough to channel, yet he's reverted back to the mind of a child. How does that work?***
What I meant by statements about Morr are that his brain muscle has not diminished in any way. All that memory, logic, and connection to his body/saidin are at adult level, but he is only putting that to use at a children's level. So Morr is not making full use of his brain. But a child on the otherhand(like Olver), hasn't fully developed those muscles. A child thinking to full capacity still has a mind of a child and therefore could not channel saidin. So this could not be the mind Morr has, the taint wouldn't remove all the mind growth he has built up, hence he can still channel saidin.
Lord of the Dawn: 2006-02-13
***You have conflicting statements above. Morr's mind is both "mature" enough to channel, yet he's reverted back to the mind of a child. How does that work? ***
I thought it was the soul that connected you to the OP. The only reason a channeler cannot be a child is that the channeling gene has not come out yet. Just because Morr has the mind of a child does not mean that his body and soul are reset back to a child. He is not truly a child, he is an adult with brain damage, but his soul is unaffected.
Callandor: 2006-02-16
**But you can't deny that LTT and Rand both have different goals. So if Rand loses control to LTT, even though its an alter ego he's created, Rand would not be able to carry out his goals as easily.**
What's that got to do with Rand losing physical control of his body?
**For example, in KoD, when Rand is fighting the trollocs and the house catches on fire, LTT doesn't want to put out the fire. He has to ask Logain to do it since LTT has control.**
Yes, but again, what's that got to do with Rand losing physical control of his body?
**So technically, yes, you are correct, but the beliefs they have are different, so I still think of them as different personalities trying to control one body. It's just a way of interpreting it, that's all.**
So, you say I am correct that Lews Therin never would've controlled Rand's physical body -- invalidating your theory (or at least the reasons for you believing the conclusions of your theory) -- but then say they're two seperate personalities trying to control one body? How's that possible?
Lews Therin cannot control Rand's body. Why? Because Lews Therin is really, deep down, truely Rand. Rand is already controlling his body, the same way he is already controlling his connection to saidin even when Lews Therin takes over. He just thinks it's truely Lews Therin channeling.
**A child thinking to full capacity still has a mind of a child and therefore could not channel saidin. So this could not be the mind Morr has, the taint wouldn't remove all the mind growth he has built up, hence he can still channel saidin.**
Again, I wouldn't say this.
Morr can channel because he developed his ability to channel and connected to saidin previously. A toddlers mind could do this as well -- they're body just doesn't have the connection.
Morr's "mature" mind has nothing to do with it. It's his mature body that is what is allowing him to channel, and denying a child of doing the same.
**I thought it was the soul that connected you to the OP. The only reason a channeler cannot be a child is that the channeling gene has not come out yet. Just because Morr has the mind of a child does not mean that his body and soul are reset back to a child.**
Which is precisely what I said in the paragraph directly after the one you quoted.
JakOShadows: 2006-02-23
**Lews Therin cannot control Rand's body. Why? Because Lews Therin is really, deep down, truely Rand. Rand is already controlling his body, the same way he is already controlling his connection to saidin even when Lews Therin takes over. He just thinks it's truely Lews Therin channeling.**
Yes, Callandor, Rand created that personality so it is Rand. But does that mean that you think insane people should be punished the same amount because they technically created it on their own. No, because when their alter ego or emotional trauma cause them to lose judgement, they can't be totally blamed for it. Now I admit it is a matter of degrees, but I have no doubt that a modern day psychologists would say that Rand has personal/psychological issues for him to deal with before he starts thinking completely rationally. So yes he is the same person, but he is an insane person (at times) and does not always use the complete logic he possesses. So when he is not using his complete logical abilities, I think of it as his alter ego he has created that does not think logically, or as most people would say, he is not acting like "himself." So I don't mean it to be taken at a literal value, I mean it to be taken at a psychological value so to speak.
**Morr's "mature" mind has nothing to do with it. It's his mature body that is what is allowing him to channel, and denying a child of doing the same.**
Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't clarify that very well. I meant to say that his mind development created the link to saidin in his body which can not be taken away even if his ability to think is lost. His minds connection to his body still remains matured. So yes, you are correct. His connection to saidin is in the body.
Callandor: 2006-02-26
**Yes, Callandor, Rand created that personality so it is Rand. But does that mean that you think insane people should be punished the same amount because they technically created it on their own.**
What does punishment have to do with Lews Therin not being able to take over Rand's body because it'd be saying Rand's taking control of his body from himself?
**Now I admit it is a matter of degrees, but I have no doubt that a modern day psychologists would say that Rand has personal/psychological issues for him to deal with before he starts thinking completely rationally.**
Rand knows quite well the difference between right and wrong -- even if he knows that sometimes he just cant stick to them. He also has a the ability to make some pretty intelligent decisions and inferences (Cleansing of saidin is of course the major example here).
Does he have problems? Of course he does. But I still don't see what this has to do with Lews Therin taking over Rand's body. I mean it's not like I'm saying Rand isn't mad.
**So yes he is the same person, but he is an insane person (at times) and does not always use the complete logic he possesses.**
Which doesn't matter in the least for bodily control.
It's all Rand's body. Rand cannot take control of his body away from himself. Whoever would be in control is still Rand.
Taking a long-winded way of agreeing with me, and then trying to form a disagreement that doesn't add up is just silly.
**So when he is not using his complete logical abilities, I think of it as his alter ego he has created that does not think logically, or as most people would say, he is not acting like "himself." So I don't mean it to be taken at a literal value, I mean it to be taken at a psychological value so to speak.**
If it's not at a literal level, what's the point of even considering that if Rand progressed further with taint madness that Lews Therin would've taken over Rand's body?
On a psychological level, you can make the argument that Lews Therin has taken over Rand every time he hums when looking at a beautiful woman -- or say that they're merging.
But my objection was to Rand being physically taken over by Lews Therin. You said this would've been inevitable if the taint was still around -- I completely disagree (at least in Rand's case; others I'd probably disagree too, but those would be much more fuddled and murky to talk about). Lews Therin would've never taken over Rand's body, because Lews Therin, at the deepest level, is really Rand and Rand cannot take control of his body away from himself.
**I meant to say that his mind development created the link to saidin in his body which can not be taken away even if his ability to think is lost.**
Eh, the wording of that doesn't completely sit well with me, but oh well, it's not like we have the best description for the process. We were both saying essentially the same point.
JakOShadows: 2006-02-27
***If it's not at a literal level, what's the point of even considering that if Rand progressed further with taint madness that Lews Therin would've taken over Rand's body?
On a psychological level, you can make the argument that Lews Therin has taken over Rand every time he hums when looking at a beautiful woman -- or say that they're merging.***
Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. I was trying to point out that this merging or taking over, however you look at it, would continue to occur and would increase how much the LTT personality has an influence over the body.
***But my objection was to Rand being physically taken over by Lews Therin. You said this would've been inevitable if the taint was still around -- I completely disagree (at least in Rand's case; others I'd probably disagree too, but those would be much more fuddled and murky to talk about). Lews Therin would've never taken over Rand's body, because Lews Therin, at the deepest level, is really Rand and Rand cannot take control of his body away from himself.***
I'm aware that Rand could not turn its body against itself. I was saying that, eventually, the LTT personality would be able make use of the body directly. If the LTT personality grew strong enough, Rand would have to struggle to control his body as well. Of course right now, Rand is still fully in control. But the fact of it is if LTT grew stronger in relation to Rand with the use of saidin, why couldn't the same happen with the body. Your argument that LTT couldn't control the body because he was created by Rand should apply to saidin if that is true. But instead, LTT fights Rand for control of saidin. I'm sorry if I did rehash a lot of stuff, but it sounded like you didn't see where I was going with my argument. And obviously, you did, now I see that. But I still think you are misinterpreting how it affects the relationship to the body as well as mind. Let me see if I can redo that diagram I put in the theory, it didn't quite come out correctly.
soul->mind->saidin
->body
So from this we see the relationship as normal. Now the taint would eat away backwards from saidin.
soul<-mind<-saidin
-body
So from these diagrams we can see that the link between saidin and the mind as related to the body and mind are for the most part the same. So even though it would take a much longer period of time, I believe that it would be possible for the LTT personality to control the body without input from Rand. It seems like you are saying that two things that are related the same way react differently when affected by the taint, which doesn't seem logical. And if you do think the relationship between saidin-mind and body-mind behave differently, what would that difference be?
Callandor: 2006-03-01
**I was trying to point out that this merging or taking over, however you look at it, would continue to occur and would increase how much the LTT personality has an influence over the body.**
But you specifically said:
**But what's happening is that as the barrier degrades, the mind is thinking of itself more as LTT than it is Rand, but there is still enough of him there to maintain control of his body, whereas saidin and the mind are more of the direct link. The body would only be the indirect link.
And I believe that if saidin had not been cleansed, Rand would have eventually lost himself and LTT would have taken over, and thats what would involve him going mad.**
If you were just refering to Lews Therin taking over Rand's personality, say so. One cannot but help draw the conclusion that you're saying Lews Therin would've taken over Rand's body, which would be a literal level.
Otherwise, this is just a very long-winded way to say: "Yes, I agree. Rand's body wouldn't have been taken over by Lews Therin, because he is a contsruct made by Rand."
**I'm aware that Rand could not turn its body against itself. I was saying that, eventually, the LTT personality would be able make use of the body directly.**
Which is controlling Rand's body!
**If the LTT personality grew strong enough, Rand would have to struggle to control his body as well.**
Again -- how does that work, if it's not on a literal level, and saying contrary to my position?
**But the fact of it is if LTT grew stronger in relation to Rand with the use of saidin, why couldn't the same happen with the body. Your argument that LTT couldn't control the body because he was created by Rand should apply to saidin if that is true.**
Rand views it as Lews Therin growing stronger. In agreement with the Barrier theory, it's really Rand doing the channeling, and again, would be Rand if he took over his body.
**So from this we see the relationship as normal. Now the taint would eat away backwards from saidin.**
Don't quite follow that point.
**So even though it would take a much longer period of time, I believe that it would be possible for the LTT personality to control the body without input from Rand.**
Then how can you say that Lews Therin is a contsruct? You say in the beginning of your theory that you agree with my Barrier Degradation theory, in which the conclusion is that Lews Therin is a construct created, and subconsciously controlled, by Rand.
JakOShadows: 2006-03-07
"Then how can you say that Lews Therin is a contsruct? You say in the beginning of your theory that you agree with my Barrier Degradation theory, in which the conclusion is that Lews Therin is a construct created, and subconsciously controlled, by Rand."
This is where I was trying to go with my post before this. Yes, LTT is a construct created by Rand, but he doesn't specifically tell him to do a specific thing. He doesn't have control over it, so he ends up fighting it in his mind and when trying to control saidin. LTT is a construct, but behaves like a totally different person. So theoretically he could take over Rand's body even though they are the same person, because they have different goals and conflict with each other at times.
It seems like your attributing characteristics of a conscious control of the body through the LTT personality, when he doesn't have conscious control of it. If the LTT personality were to control Rand's body, Rand has no control over him, so he would not be in control of the body. To reference a previous post of yours, the way Rand hums and thumbs his ear when he gets aroused is LTT gaining a bit of control. But in this instance it is not so much direct control, but bleeding through his subconscious or merging. But this shows that the LTT personality can exert some control over Rand's body, with out Rand consciously telling LTT to do this. If we go a step further with this, using this same example as evidence, it seems like it should be possible for LTT to control the body independent of Rand conscious control. Actually, a great example of how this could happen is demonstrated in the movie Fight Club. So I believe the evidence in the books and current beliefs show that this extreme condition is possible.(but rare I have to admit) It seems like your one bit of evidence is that LTT is a construct of Rand's mind, so Rand has control of his body at all times; and while that it is true, you are not taking into account how this psychological event took place. Rand didn't choose to create the personality either, it was his mind's way of dealing with the extraordinary circumstances. If it is viewed in this light, it is entirely possible that LTT could control Rand's body. It seems like you aren't seeing the whole picture; but rather, only one piece of the puzzle and making an inference from that.
Frenzy: 2006-03-10
If this theory is dependant on Lews Therin being a construct of Rand's insanity, then i can summarily throw it out. Lews Therin's status is hotly debatable, and i'm on the side that says he's legit. sorry, bud.
I'll assume you're familiar with Shaidar Haran's quote to Osan'gar and Aran'gar about minds, bodies and souls, so i won't insult your intelligence by re-quoting it.
Callandor: 2006-03-11
**This is where I was trying to go with my post before this. Yes, LTT is a construct created by Rand, but he doesn't specifically tell him to do a specific thing. He doesn't have control over it, so he ends up fighting it in his mind and when trying to control saidin. LTT is a construct, but behaves like a totally different person. So theoretically he could take over Rand's body even though they are the same person, because they have different goals and conflict with each other at times.**
Again, this is the fundamental problem: how does a construct take over a body? It's Rand's body. Rand is really both himself and Lews Therin. So, how can Rand take control of his body from himself? You're just saying "Well, he can." only to say it won't happen because the taint is gone now.
**It seems like your attributing characteristics of a conscious control of the body through the LTT personality, when he doesn't have conscious control of it. If the LTT personality were to control Rand's body, Rand has no control over him, so he would not be in control of the body.**
1. I'm not saying it any means that Lews Therin in any way, shape, or form would have any type of control of Rand's body -- that's what you're saying.
2. Again, the point you are missing is that you agree with the concept that Lews Therin really is Rand. You're just saying when it comes to the body, it's just magically different.
**To reference a previous post of yours, the way Rand hums and thumbs his ear when he gets aroused is LTT gaining a bit of control. But in this instance it is not so much direct control, but bleeding through his subconscious or merging.**
Ah, so everytime Rand hums or thumbs his ear, it's really Lews Therin taking over -- the Lews Therin you yourself have agreed really is Rand?
**So I believe the evidence in the books and current beliefs show that this extreme condition is possible.**
You're own stance invalidates this from occuring.
**It seems like your one bit of evidence is that LTT is a construct of Rand's mind, so Rand has control of his body at all times; and while that it is true, you are not taking into account how this psychological event took place. Rand didn't choose to create the personality either, it was his mind's way of dealing with the extraordinary circumstances.**
Which is, on a subconscious level, a choice. Rand was bombarded with these memories that were not his, and madness as well, and he could not deal with them so he chose to supress them just like his emotions -- Lews Therin is what emerged.
And again, you just admitted that you agree with the fundamental flaw in your agrument.
**It seems like you aren't seeing the whole picture; but rather, only one piece of the puzzle and making an inference from that.**
Wow, coming from a person who is ignoring a key factor in the major objection to their theory, that says much.
JakOShadows: 2006-03-21
Frenzy:
I'm sorry, I don't recall the quote exactly. I could probably find it if I had the book, but I am at college if you could refresh me that would be great. But I do want to say one thing; the DO has the ability to force to souls to share a body, but the when has Rand or LTT in his past life tied himself to the DO. So it might depend on the context. But I do realize that this is a highly contested issue and still mostly circumstantial, so your method is possible, I just have trouble believing.
Callandor:
I really don't think I am contradicting myself. Unless Rand can consciously control his body through LTT, then you would have a point. But once Rand subconsciously created the LTT personality, it has never been controlled by the Rand personality. What you are saying is that since Rand created LTT, he has full control of him, so he won't take over his body. But if you claim that, then you would also have to claim that LTT can't take control of saidin, and he did that in KoD. So it seems like you are applying different rules in how he controls saidin and the body. Unless you can come up with a way to reconcile that difference, then I will concede my point. But it seems like you are setting a double standard in the two situations.
JakOShadows: 2006-03-21
Sorry, I forgot to mention something.
***Ah, so everytime Rand hums or thumbs his ear, it's really Lews Therin taking over -- the Lews Therin you yourself have agreed really is Rand?***
Actually, I believe this situation is more of a merging than a taking of control. We have seen Rand come to terms a little with some of his memories. But as it stands currently, he has still not completely embraced his memories, so he still has the LTT personality to deal with the harsher memories. And in this current state, I believe it is possible that LTT could take control. Now once he becomes psychologically stable, it would be a whole different story, but right now his mind is divided against itself so it would be entirely possible. And one more thing, I realize that this is in the circumstance that was exposed to more saidin. Right now, it definitely won't happen because there is no taint, but if he were exposed to more taint, it is possible.
Callandor: 2006-03-26
**I really don't think I am contradicting myself. Unless Rand can consciously control his body through LTT, then you would have a point. But once Rand subconsciously created the LTT personality, it has never been controlled by the Rand personality.**
Then take back your statement that you agree with the Barrier Degradation theory -- your statement is a contradiction to it since one of the central conclusions is that Lews Therin is truely Rand.
**What you are saying is that since Rand created LTT, he has full control of him, so he won't take over his body. But if you claim that, then you would also have to claim that LTT can't take control of saidin, and he did that in KoD.**
Lews Therin can't -- Rand can. That is the entire point. Lews Therin is not, at a fundamental level, seperate from Rand. That's one of the conclusions of the Barrier Degradation theory which you say you agree with. This is the contradiction.
** And in this current state, I believe it is possible that LTT could take control.**
So, now you're contradicting one of your claims, in that Rand would never progress to being taken over from Lews Therin because the taint is gone?
JakOShadows: 2006-03-28
**Lews Therin can't -- Rand can. That is the entire point. Lews Therin is not, at a fundamental level, seperate from Rand. That's one of the conclusions of the Barrier Degradation theory which you say you agree with. This is the contradiction.**
Allright, we're obviously interpreting this very differently. I see what you are saying. And I do agree that Rand is LTT, but even though they are both one and the same person, they act as different entities. Like a really bad case of pshcizofrenia. I'm interpreting this as a paradox, Rand created and is the LTT personality, but since Rand can not control the LTT personality he is not truely the LTT personality right now. If Rand does eventually come to terms with his memory, he will have control of the LTT personality, and then the paradox is not a paradox anymore; but as it stands now, even if they are the same people, Rand and LTT are acting as two different entities. You are trying to portray this as black and white, that if Rand created the LTT personality, he has control of it and is doing everything himself. But since he can not control the LTT personality, this idea has a flaw in it. I wouldn't keep arguing with you so much except that you are misinterpreting what I am saying.
** And in this current state, I believe it is possible that LTT could take control.**
I'm sorry about the confusion here. What I meant is that with the pshcizofrenia and the taint together it is possible for LTT to take control of the body. I should have written that better.
JakOShadows: 2006-03-28
Sorry, I'm double posting again. Callandor, I see your point that this is not in direct accordance with the barrier theory. So, yes, this is not based exactly of the barrier degradation theory, but the fundamental idea behind it is basically the same. I do have a question for you though, do you honestly think that Rand has full control of LTT and himself when they are fighting? Because I believe that is fundamentally impossible, I don't see how he could consciously be in control of both personalities at the same time. He knows he has to at least fight at the LB, so why commit suicide now. Do you see my logic behind that? If you don't agree with this, then I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, because this is what everything boils down to now that I think about it, but I just wanted to see where you stood on that.
Ieyasu: 2006-06-06
JakOShadows:
i agree with you in so much as i dont believe LTT will ever take control of rand's body, but not for the reasons you outline here. its just personal opinion from me (i think LTT ((real or construct, doesnt matter)) will be absorbed into rand when he learns laughter and tears)
however id like to point something out:
*And I believe that if saidin had not been cleansed, Rand would have eventually lost himself and LTT would have taken over,*
the only thing is, LTT has still gotten stronger SINCE the cleaning... but is this a result of the amount of taint rand 'absorbed' when he DID the cleansing, or is LTT simply growing stronger regardless of the taint? Semmy has said its a VERY RARE thing for the the voices to be real (see below on my side note for the quote) and that Greandal has experience with it, which would have had to come from PRIOR to the tainting of saidin, so this could suggest that this condition that rand has IS infact just a rare thing that naturally occurs... i like the taint wearing down the barrier personally tho
Callandor:
why do you think LTT cannot take control of rand's body? he HASNT yet, but regardless of whether or not he is real or a construct, taking a look in our own world at ppl who suffer MPS (multiple personality disorder) there are several levels and types. now, in OUR world, we arent linking to past lives souls etc, so i think its safe to say MPS is constructed personalities (which you believe LTT is) and these personalities are sometimes dominant within the 'host'
meaning they take over! physically!!
it is STILL the host person deep down, being as they created the personality, but sometimes these personalities are completely different (sometimes they arent even the same sex) but as you said about LTT being truely rand deep down inside, so too, are these personalities truely the host, deep down inside. that doesnt meant the host can control them (even if they are aware of them, which sometimes they arent), or should be confused with 'being' them on anything more than a technical level.
why is it so far fetched that rand's LTT personality, regardless if he is real or a construct (which after KOD i think MAY be real rather than a construct, tho before KOD i thought it was jsut a personality created to handle the memories), could potentially take over rand's body?
sure, if he is a construct, it would secretly be rand deep down inside. but at the same time, LTT would be the dominate personality and rand would be piggybacking in the back of his mind.
the only thing that makes rand diff than a person in our day and age who has MPS (as far as the LTT personality is concerned) is the memories are REAL.
are you saying that since rand created the LTT construct that it is really rand because he's just a construct?
*it's like saying my right hand is going to take over my left hand. *
i find your right hand taking over the left hand analogy to be inadequate here. rand doesnt control LTT, even if he created him. he can mute him, but he doesnt control what LTT thinks about, talks about, or anything. if i only control ONE of my hands, and the other one i DONT... you can see what im getting at here
*It's like your right hand and left hand going for a remote. Who cares which hand gets it, as long as you have the remote?*
if my right hand has MY personality, and my left hand has ANOTHER personality, and both grab for the remote, it DOES matter which one of gets it, you are assuming both hands are controled by me, but what if the right hand and left hand want to watch different programs?
it is entirely possible that a contructed personality can become dominate over the original 'real personality'
if you want to say its really rand because he created LTT, i guess that is a technically correct statement, but it is also flawed because creation or not, rand doesnt *CONTROL* LTT
right now rand is the dominate personality within his mind and body, however if LTT surplants him, HE would be the dominate personality, the books have shown a steady increase in teh voice, from a few random thoughts into fullblown conversations. now he has siezed saidin. wahts next? a body take over is the next logical progression...
i think it is entirely possible that LTT can take over rands physical body regardless of whether or not he is real/construct
and btw callandor, as far as your barrier degradation theory is concerned, you could have the taint affecting the barrier between lives be correct but be WRONG about LTT being a construct... i was in agreement with your theory (including the construct part) up until the KOD quote below.. i believe you may be wrong about the reality/construct aspect, your theory is more like 2 theories combined into one, but that doesnt mean BOTH aspects have to be correct.
LTT doesnt have to be a construct for the degradation between past lives to be true.
on a side note:
***KOD chapter 27 A Plain Wooden Box pg 593
“Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. “He’s insane,†she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min’s knife hilt still sticking out her collar bone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. “Graendal could explain it better than I. madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be...abrupt.†her lips curves in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.â€***
granted, she could be lying, but rings rather true from what we know of rands POV
***TDR chapter 6 The Hunt Begins pg 57
"...Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle. There are others. What 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed?..."***
do you suppose LTT is the 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' is what moiraine is speculating about?
he certianly is mad, and healing him (i would take this to mean LTT being removed/erased/absorbed.. whatever) could be cutting hope a bit being as LTT does have lots of useful flows and knowledge from AOL...
Callandor: 2006-06-07
**why do you think LTT cannot take control of rand's body?**
How can you take control of your body away from yourself? It's like trying to grab the remote with both hands. Doesn't matter which hand has it, you still have the remote. It's not the best analogy, but Rand trying to take control of his body, through Lews Therin, away from himself seems impossible.
**he HASNT yet, but regardless of whether or not he is real or a construct, taking a look in our own world at ppl who suffer MPS (multiple personality disorder) there are several levels and types.**
We've already seen that Jordan has diverged from real world parallels in several examples. No use going to the real world to figure out reasons for what can or cannot happen.
**are you saying that since rand created the LTT construct that it is really rand because he's just a construct?**
Yes, Lews Therin is just a construct. Yes, Lews Therin is really deep down Rand.
**rand doesnt control LTT, even if he created him. he can mute him, but he doesnt control what LTT thinks about, talks about, or anything. if i only control ONE of my hands, and the other one i DONT... you can see what im getting at here**
You're effectively saying Rand can't control Lews Therin, because he can reduce his influence -- which would be control.
But in anyway, your example is only the weakest one. Rand can truly control Lews Therin because, as the barrier theory asserts, Lews Therin expresses the emotions that Rand is supressing. That is what would be considered one of Lews Therin's "sources." Without that, Lews Therin will disappear -- as in the time from A Crown of Swords to The Path of Daggers.
**if my right hand has MY personality, and my left hand has ANOTHER personality, and both grab for the remote, it DOES matter which one of gets it, you are assuming both hands are controled by me, but what if the right hand and left hand want to watch different programs?**
But we're not talking about grabbing anything here. The point is that Rand's body is not just in his hands. Does it matter if your left hand has the remote or the right one does? No, because you have the remote. The you in this case would be Rand's body. There's nothing to "grab" control of.
**if you want to say its really rand because he created LTT, i guess that is a technically correct statement, but it is also flawed because creation or not, rand doesnt *CONTROL* LTT**
Please explain how Rand doesn't control Lews Therin, if deep down Rand is Lews Therin.
**LTT doesnt have to be a construct for the degradation between past lives to be true.**
No, it doesn't, which I expressly say is the case in the theory.
**do you suppose LTT is the 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' is what moiraine is speculating about?**
No, that is undoubtedly the taint on saidin, which was cleansed by what one can only attribute to Rand (he had help, but he is the one that did it).
deathonhrzn: 2008-06-26
actually if you recall, occasionally LTT would try to control Rand, it was only when Rand was bieng mindful of himself 100% of the way that he wasn't. When Taim brought him the seal, LTT was about to make Rand break it and Rand didn't even know about it.