ews Therin and Dragonmount
by Thel Dranmar: 2007-08-15 | 4.6 out of 10 (10 votes)
Lews Therin and Dragonmount
WARNING: This is my first theory (indeed the only reason I joined was so I could post this theory) so please bear with me.
I thought of this while rereading the prologue to teotw. This prologue has always stood out to me as having lots of hidden information. It is before the current age, the only time Lews Therin is actually alive, and RJ has always said he knew how it would end before he started writing. This (especially the last part) has always made me figure that a hint of the end would be hidden in the beginning.
So in the prologue you have Lews Therin, crazy, just destroyed his home and his entire family. Then you have Elan Morin Tedronai, Betrayer of Hope, Ishmael, and later Moridin (anybody else notice the middle name? Morin –> Moridin?) You have the Light, albeit insane, and the dark, not insane. Moridin then heals Lews Therin of his craziness (well the part caused by the taint anyway :D) and Lews Therin realizes what he’s done and travels to what will shortly be the site of Dragonmount. All Lews Therin does is draw on the One Power. He draws more than anyone before him, more than anyone should.
I really paid attention to what Lews Therin says, and how Dragonmount is formed. You might think I’m crazy by the time you get done with what I thought of, but hey it’s just a theory and if I’m wrong so what? I can join all the other people who were wrong. (and btw I’m not crazy, I’m Insane. There IS a difference)
“‘Light, forgive me!’ He did not believe it could come, forgiveness. Not for what he had done. But he shouted to the sky anyway, begged for what he could not believe he could receive. ‘Light, forgive me!’
He was still touching saidin, the male half of the power that drove the universe that turned the Wheel of Time, and he could feel the oily taint fouling its surface, the taint of the Shadow’s counterstroke, the taint that doomed the world. Because of him. Because in his pride he had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. In his pride he had believed. He drew on the True source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all.
‘Light, forgive me! Ilyena!’ The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs, shrieking and blowing as if to aid the growing mountain ever skyward. Ever skyward.
At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters. Of Lews Therin Telamon, no sign remained. Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava still gushing from its broken peak. The broad, straight river had been pushed into a curve away from the mountain, and there it split to form a long island in its midst. The shadow of the mountain almost reached the island; it lay dark across the land like the ominous hand of prophecy. For a time the dull, protesting rumbles of the earth were the only sound.
On the island, the air shimmered and coalesced. The blackclad man stood staring at the fiery mountain rising out of the plain. His face twisted in rage and contempt. ‘You cannot escape so easily, Dragon. It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.’
Then he was gone, and the mountain and the island stood alone. Waiting.â€
Now, That is from the last full paragraph on page xiii to the end of page xiv in teotw. Now what I think happened here isn’t that Lews Therin drew so much of the One Power that it destroyed him and created Dragonmount, which is what I had assumed before this theory. What I think actually happened is that Lews Therin called out to the creator, and the creator answered.
Lews Therin is constantly saying “Light, forgive me!†Even though he didn’t think it was possible, one of the things about Christianity (upon which this Creator & DO thing are based) is that no matter what you’ve done, you can always come back to the light. Throughout the books you hear characters saying they were taught “None have gone so far into the darkness that cannot be brought back to the light.†(I am too lazy to look up an actual occurrence of this so if somebody would do that for me it would be much appreciated). I think that since Lews Therin was sincere, and even though “He did not believe it could come, forgiveness. Not for what he had done. But he shouted to the sky anyway, begged for what he could not believe he could receive,†the creator listened and forgave him. I don’t think the creator wanted Lews Therin to die or burn himself out just yet, so created an alternate solution. If you look at the part where the beam comes down and hits Lews Therin “The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch,â€
You see that the bolt Struck from the heavens, and From the heavens it came. It obviously did not come from Lews Therin. Also it never says that Lews Therin channeled. If he had channeled, he would likely have done something he knew, like Blossoms of Fire (KOD pg. 442) which he used against the Trollocs when they attacked him in Tear.
I believe that the bolt from the heavens was the Creator acting. What he did exactly, well I have three possibilities for that which I will order in ones I believe in least to most.
The first possibility is that the Creator made a thin spot in the pattern, much like the area the Do was in before the Bore, except that this one was for the Creator. He may have had to use Lews Therin as a connection or merely answered the call of a desperate man. I don’t know. This is the one I believe in least, because I can’t think of why the creator would need to do this, and why he chose to do it at that exact moment. It’s one of the three I thought of though, so I figured I’d throw it out there.
Next is the stored consciousness theory (see LTT Never by Brain Fire Bob). This theory is that essentially the Creator stored LTT’s consciousness in Dragonmount, and when baby rand was born, the baby was stillborn, and the Creator, (or LTT’s consciousness naturally) moved LTT’s consciousness into the baby’s body. Another one that I’m gonna put with this is the two souls theory (I looked, but couldn’t find it. Neither could I remember what it was under or who wrote and I’m deeply sorry. If someone knows this information it would be deeply appreciated if you could let me know). This theory is similar to LTT Never, except that the baby wasn’t stillborn, it just has two souls. LTT and Rand together, and the Creator merely stored LTT’s consciousness until it could move into an undeveloped soul and share the space with it (which would be baby Rand, since he is the only one to ever be born on Dragonmount). There are some problems with this, such as why use a mountain and all the dramatic, landscape changing effects, merely to store a soul, but this one has a better case than the previous one, so it comes in second.
This one has nothing to do with any other theories I have seen or heard of and it is also the one that will make you think I’m crazy as well as insane (Again, there IS a difference. I’m already insane. I am NOT crazy. Yet… I think…). The third possibility is that The Creator knew that the DO’s prison was broken, and even he couldn’t fix it, However, since he created the DO’s prison in the first place, why couldn’t he create another one? That’s what I think happened. The Creator used Lews Therin and all the power he had gathered to himself, to create another prison to eventually hold the Dark One. This would fit with the last line “…the mountain and the island stood alone. Waiting.†The mountain was (and is as of KOD) for the DO to break free of the patch on his old prison, so that he can be moved to his new one, Dragonmount. The only problem I have with this explanation is why would the creator make a new prison thousands of years before it would be used. I think that could easily be explained if the creator needed someone with enough of the one power gathered in one spot. Lews Therin had more of the One Power gathered there than anyone in history (Except perhaps the last time the DO broke free and a new prison was needed the last time this age came about????).
So anyway, that’s my theory, rip it to shreds, treasure it, ignore it, think about it, whatever. Just let me know what you think. :D
P.S. btw I’m sorry if I rambled and repeated myself, like I said, this is my first theory and I haven’t quite figured out how to make it more concise.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2008-06-08
Thel - I'm sorry it took so long, but I'm about to go through a bunch of theories and yours was the first on the list. I like the thought. You will have to fight through a variety of complaints. First, the two souls theory was killed a while back. Jordan has said that Rand is one soul, two personalities. However, that does not preclude this from being a Pattern moment, where something spectacular occurs outside the norm, such as Rand's fight in the sky in the Great Hunt. I can understand what kicked off your thought: we have no reason to believe that an individual that burns out would be capable of being hit with a bolt of light that would create a mountain. Was it the Wheel that is responsible for the bolt of light and the mountain, or was it the Creator? I would agree with the idea that it had to be one of those; LTT's overdose could not have created that effect on its own. Well, good luck.
2
Ozymandias: 2008-06-08
Firstly and most importantly... welcome. You should definitely stick around, new blood on this site is always good, especially the main page.
As for the theory. Well, Tam has already mentioned that the two souls idea was nixed by RJ.
The second problem I have here is with this idea.
"The third possibility is that The Creator knew that the DO’s prison was broken, and even he couldn’t fix it, However, since he created the DO’s prison in the first place, why couldn’t he create another one? That’s what I think happened."
We know the Creator has the power to imprison the Dark One when he is at full strength. So why wouldn't be be able to fix the prison, when only a small portion of the Dark One's power is able to break free?
And if he DOES have the power to create another prison, as you claim he does via Lews Therin, why doesn't he put the Dark One in there? Or better yet, create it around the current prison?
The other issue I have is this. We know Lews Therin wasn't channeling a particularly large amount of the Power. Unaided, perhaps yes, but overall it was fairly miniscule.
TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
angreal (ahn-gree-AHL): A very rare object which allows anyone capable of channeling the One Power to handle a greater amount of the Power than would be safely possible unaided.
We know that even the strongest channeler is no match for someone with an angreal. Lews Therin had a great deal of the power in him, but not more than anyone with an angreal could have held. Since most of your theory is predicated on the assumption that Lews Therin was holding an unprecedented amount of the One Power, this is quite a hole to patch.
The other issue your not confronting is that the Dark One's prison isn't in the Pattern. We know the Dark One is outside the Pattern. I think your drawing a connection between Shayol Ghul and Dragonmount because they are both mountains; this isn't the case. We know that the Dark One's prison isn't in this world.
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Even after all his visits�and the first lay well over three thousand years in the past�Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.
Shayol Ghul, despite popular misconception in Randland, isn't the Dark One's prison. Its just the place it can be best sensed. To imply that Dragonmount is actually physically going to be the prison is contradicting this entire idea that the Dark One is trapped outside the Pattern. Unless your suggesting that Dragonmount will end up being the new Shayol Ghul, the new place where you can sense the break in the Pattern?
I just feel like the two basic assumptions that this theory builds off; that Lews Therin was handling an unprecedented amount of the One Power, and that the Dark One's prison can be a physical mountain (like Shayol Ghul, ostensibly) are both false and have both been denied by Robert Jordan. Which brings the rest of it tumbling down.
I know this has been considered, but I'll bring it up again. Its very possible that the "bar of light liquefied" is balefire. A very thin stream. Or if not balefire, then something else that could pierce the earth's crust, and cause a volcanic eruption of a scale to create a mountain.
3
fish06: 2008-06-08
I like this theory because it addresses the event surrounding LTT's death. However, I do not believe that Dragonmount is another prison. The last battle seems like it will take place at Shayol Ghul. The prophecies say that Rands blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free men. (at least that is what I remember could be wrong.) It seems unlikely that the Dark one would somehow move against his will or with intent to dragonmount.
4
lordoftwilight: 2008-06-09
Here's an idea of why the Creator needed to use Lews Therin as a conduit, he was unable to reach into the pattern himself for one, like the Dark One the Creator is an entity outside the pattern, good as he may be he still exist ouside of it like the Dark One is supposed to, until the bore is made. But I degress. SO the Creator used what he could of his champion and probably through the true source which is his power, "the power of Creation" he strikes down Lews Therin maiking Dragonmount a testament to what happens to man as they try to become gods, like the tower of babel in Genises, or to create as you say a new prison for the dark one(I like choice B better).
Antother posibility with the creator not being able to help out and reseal the bore himself is that the creator is like the Gardner mentioned in KoD I think(don't have the copy with me but is in one of Rands parts or its in Lord of Chaos.) So he does not care to much if one flower dies since he can only do litle and let man do with the world as he pleases.
So back to Rand here to close up, the two souls thourghly smashed but what if like Mat Rands got past memories but with these memories he has devloped an alter ego like pointed out at the end of KoD so he is creating Lews Therin. or what he knows of Lews Therin like wanting forgivness, since in the begening of EotW it says that the chorincle was made during the fourth age so it had to be kown during the third or current age.
5
Flinn Sedai: 2008-06-10
Welcome to Theoryland.
Always good to see new people, although it's been so long, I don't know how many of the people I know are still on.
Anyways, a couple of points, both for and against.
When some people read that, they assume that it was simply supercharged lightning. Extremely hot, thus why it is so damaging. That being said, it doesn't really work with the creation of Dragonmount. You can't really drill a hole with lightning.
We also don't know what weaves LTT knew. We can't limit our possibilities by assuming that we know all the possible weaves he could have used.
I think it should also be pointed out that somehow LTT stood while whatever it was destroyed everything around it. "From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch,"
Graphite turns to vapor (sublimation) at 3825 Celsius, and Graphite has density of up to 2.23 g/cm^3, whereas stone has a density of roughly 260 g/cm^3. So, it's safe to say that whatever struck LTT would have to be hotter than 3825 Celsius. And yet, LTT was able to keep channeling. It went through LTT and struck the ground. A valid point would be, "Why didn't LTT at least melt."
Also, we know that when somebody is willing to let themselves die to cause damage, there seems to be very little as far as bounds go. The last Queen of Manetheren, Eldrene ay Ellan, when Aemon al Caar was killed, used the Power to kill every single dreadlord in the field, from her Palace, as well as laying waste to the entire Trolloc army.
Now, let's be realistic. Even if she were as powerful as Nynaeve, which she probably wasn't, we're talking about Power on the level of a Sa'angreal, at least. Not Choeden Kal levels, but Rand with Callandor, just about the strongest one out there, is barely that strong.
If we're imagining the strongest channeler ever, drawing as much as he can, then it is quite imaginable that he is drawing as much as has every been used before (Not counting book 9 of course).
6
Marie Curie 7: 2008-06-10
Ozymandias:
"I know this has been considered, but I'll bring it up again. Its very possible that the "bar of light liquefied" is balefire. A very thin stream. Or if not balefire, then something else that could pierce the earth's crust, and cause a volcanic eruption of a scale to create a mountain."
It couldn't have been balefire. We know that the bolt of light went through Lews Therin:
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TITLE - Eye of the World, CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount
The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs, shrieking and blowing as if to aid the growing mountain ever skyward. Ever skyward.
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But RJ said that Lews Therin did NOT use balefire; he just drew too much of the Power. From Thus Spake the Creator:
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Q: Please find out if Lews Therin balefired himself in the prologue in EotW, or if he just drew too much of the OP. If it isn't critical to the continuing plot, I'm sure he'll say.
A: Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.
7
Flinn Sedai: 2008-06-10
Oh, I also meant to add one more thing. One thought on the resealing of the DO.
Now, a lot of people speak about sealing the DO and the Bore as if they were the same thing. I think it's important to keep in mind that the DO was never free. In the Age of Legends, the Pattern had been bored through. This made you able to speak to the DO, and interact in a fashion. It also lets the DO affect the world. However, he was never completely free.
I think that there is some kind of unwritten non-interference agreement between the DO and the Creator. The DO can't directly influence the world, and neither can the Creator. Obviously there is a sort of gray area that the DO walks, but I think the Dragon's job is to force the DO into the Pattern, which would allow the Creator to step in and reseal him properly.
It would be akin to the Ori and the Ancients in Stargate SG-1, if any of you watch the series. If not, it is an irrelevant comparison.
8
englermeister: 2008-06-11
I like the idea that LTT was saved by the creator and stored outside the pattern by the creator to then be reborn into Rand. That would mean that LTT wasn't kept in Telaranrhiod like heroes bound to the wheel... and I think that makes sense, as it would be stupid if LTT could be calledback by the horn of valere...
but then that would also mean that LTT would have to be placed back into the pattern, that is, reborn, by the creator not the pattern. and if that was true then the prophesied events leading to the dragon being reborn may have been directed by the creator too. unless the creator knew what the pattern was going to weave and just acted at the right time.
On the other hand maybe LTT was bound in a prison like the DO's at dragon mount by his own, or the creators, doing.
like heroes are born back into the world and they don't know who they are until they are back in the dreamworld, Rand could be LTT's soul reborn and so would be just like any other hero reborn... but, if LTT was kept outside of the dreamworld then maybe he kept some of his own memories which leaked back in. that would mean that Rand is one person but with a remembered personality.
'if the creator needed someone with enough of the one power gathered in one spot'
I don't think this is true. if the creator created the world using or utilizing the true source then why would he need LTT to draw some for him to use. why would LTT drawing power be any easier for the creator to use than just the source itself.
then again maybe LTT jsut died.
'blazed through Lews Therin Telamon' ..that could well mean that he was burnt up by the light. it 'bored into the bowels of the earth' and if that can't be rephrased as going through the earth then....
and then LTT being reborn into Rand might be just a regular hero being spun out by the pattern, but with some interesting and unexplained symptoms of something else.
any way, I like that this theory has been put up... I think it has quite a few interesting points.
9
Yuri33: 2008-06-11
While the pyrotechnics surrounding Lews Therin's death are suspect, the balance of evidence so far indicates that his death and formation of Dragonmount were simply side affects of what he did to himself. Recall that in KoD, Lews Therin tried to [b]repeat[/b] what he had done in tEotW:
**Knife of Dreams, Vows**
** It’s done, he thought. It’s done. Lews Therin. You can release saidin now. Harilin and Enaila were standing on the table, veiled and spears in hand. Min stood beside them, her face grim, a throwing knife in either hand. The bond was full of fear, and not for herself, he suspected. They had saved his life, but he had to save it himself, now.
“A close run thing,†Logain muttered. “If this had happened before I arrived… A close-run thing.†He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. “Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly.â€
“It doesn’t matter where they went,†Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go. man. “Shadowspawn can’t survive passing through a gateway.â€
I want to die, Lews Therin said. I want to join llyena.
If you really wanted to die, why did you kill Trollocs? Rand thought. Why kill that Myrddraal? People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrddraal without a mark on them,†he said aloud.
[b]I seem to remember dying. Lews Therin murmured. I remember how I did it.[/b] He drew deeper still, and small pains grew in Rand’s temples.
“Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens.†Rand rubbed at his temples. That pain was a warning. He was close to the amount of saidin he could hold without dying or being burnt out. You can’t die yet, he told Lews Therin. We have to reach Tarmon Gai’don or the world dies.
“A Deathgate,†Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. “Why are you still holding the Power?’- he asked suddenly. “And so much. If you’re trying to show me that you’re stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your… your Deathgates were compared to mine. And I’d say you’re holding every drop of saidin that you can safely.â€**
We know drawing too much of the OP results in [i]bad things[/i]. The consequence mentioned the most often is burning out, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of other harmful effects, including death. How would such a death manifest? We have no idea, since there's no other clear incidence where someone [i]actually[/i] drew too much of the OP.
(There's a possibility that Aginor may have had been killed by drawing too much from the Eye at the end of tEotW, but it's not clear. Nonetheless, Aginor went up in flames, so if it was a case of drawing too much OP, that supports the idea that there can be death and spectacular pyrotechnics when doing so. Because it's unclear what actually happened, I don't place much weight on this, however.)
Lews Therin specifically mentions remembering [i]how he did it[/i]. The implication is that his death at the end of the tEotW was his doing, and no other, since he seems to claim he can do it again.
Perhaps, with someone as strong as Rand\Lews Therin, an overload of the OP, combined with an insane desire to kill himself, is indeed enough to create a bolt from the heavens and form a new mountain. It doesn't have to be a weave, but simply the consequence of the strongest channeler the world drawing more OP into themselves than any other could ever hope to do.
10
Ozymandias: 2008-06-11
Firstly, Flinn... the Manetheren Queen (whatever her name is) WAS using a sa'angreal, we learn that either in the story or in BWB.
Marie - I understand it wasn't balefire, in fact, balefiring oneself would probably destroy the universe in some way by creating a time loop.
I was merely saying that the Creator didn't randomly decide to yank up this big mountain. Whatever Lews Therin called down, and it was likely fire, may very well have melted its way down through the crust and initiated a volcanic eruption, which formed the mountain.
11
JakOShadows: 2008-06-12
I like the idea that the creator had something to do with that bolt of lightning, but I don't think we have enough evidence as to what he was planning. I do think it does have something to do with the role dragonmount will play in tg, because of the way RJ emphasized the earthquakes and possible eruption of dragonmount in KoD. I wonder if it has something to do with the white tower being right there next to dragonmount as well. If the fight might start there and move to shayol ghul. We know the horn is still in the tower as well, which might all change in the next book. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't dismiss dragonmount as some random mountain, because a lot of events are taking place around that area and dragonmount could possibly be a focal point of those major events in the next book.
12
Flinn Sedai: 2008-06-15
Sa'angreal and angreal have buffers built into them so that you can't overdraw on the power. Cadsuane discusses this when she's explaining about Callandor being an aberration that doesn't have the built in buffer. Just like in circles.
13
Catalyst: 2008-06-30
A little point: if you overdraw, you WILL burn yourself out. But several times I've read somewhere that the Power will burn you out or kill you just in seconds. But you have that Power for these few seconds.
For the last few months I also thought that there will be a new prison, only I didn't think of Dragonmount as the new site.
And how many times we must repeat that (a quote from Asmodean) "the bloody Creator" does not interfere? He could appear in front of Rand after the Dark One is resealed to tell him "You did a great job, my son..." or some such, but for nothing else.
P.S. Rand, Mat and Perrin will reunite in Ebou Dar (Mat bring Thom, Perrin brings Morgase - a very dangerous moment, I think); I believe that Rand and Perrin will be quite surprised at Mat's new title (Prince of the Ravens), and Rand meets his father once again. Quite a city for meetings, Ebou Dar.
14
Marie Curie 7: 2008-07-15
Ozymandias:
"Marie - I understand it wasn't balefire, in fact, balefiring oneself would probably destroy the universe in some way by creating a time loop.
I was merely saying that the Creator didn't randomly decide to yank up this big mountain. Whatever Lews Therin called down, and it was likely fire, may very well have melted its way down through the crust and initiated a volcanic eruption, which formed the mountain."
Okay Ozy, but I don't get it then, because you said: "Its very possible that the 'bar of light liquefied' is balefire. A very thin stream. Or if not balefire, then something else that could pierce the earth's crust, and cause a volcanic eruption of a scale to create a mountain." It just seemed like you were saying that one possibility was balefire. At any rate, I agree that it wasn't the Creator making some big mountain, but rather some effect from all the Power that Lews Therin drew.
Yuri:
"We know drawing too much of the OP results in bad things. The consequence mentioned the most often is burning out, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of other harmful effects, including death. How would such a death manifest? We have no idea, since there's no other clear incidence where someone actually drew too much of the OP."
One of the other incidents that has been mentioned a couple of times is Eldrene and the destruction of Manetheren. Moiraine says:
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TITLE - Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 9 - Tellings of the Wheel
"In the Mountains of Mist, alone in the emptied city of Manetheren, Eldrene felt Aemon die, and her heart died with him. And where her heart had been was left only a thirst for vengeance, vengeance for her love, vengeance for her people and her land. Driven by grief she reached out to the True Source, and hurled the One Power at the Trolloc army. And there the Dreadlords died wherever they stood, whether in their secret councils or exhorting their soldiers. In the passing of a breath the Dreadlords and the generals of the Dark One's host burst into flame. Fire consumed their bodies, and terror consumed their just-victorious army.
"Now they ran like beasts before a wildfire in the forest, with no thought for anything but escape. North and south they fled. Thousands drowned attempting to cross the Tarendrelle without the aid of the Dreadlords, and at the Manetherendrelle they tore down the bridges in their fright at what might be following them. Where they found people, they slew and burned, but to flee was the need that gripped them. Until, at last, no one of them remained in the lands of Manetheren. They were dispersed like dust before the whirlwind. The final vengeance came more slowly, but it came, when they were hunted down by other peoples, by other armies in other lands. None was left alive of those who did murder at Aemon's Field.
"But the price was high for Manetheren. Eldrene had drawn to herself more of the One Power than any human could ever hope to wield unaided. As the enemy generals died, so did she die, and the fires that consumed her consumed the empty city of Manetheren, even the stones of it, down to the living rock of the mountains. Yet the people had been saved."
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This is not exactly the same effect that Lews Therin caused by drawing too much of the One Power, but fires consuming Eldrene and the entire city of Manetheren is almost an equally impressive feat, and apparently also caused by drawing too much of the One Power. But then, the BWB says:
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TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 10 - Rise and Fall of the Ten Nations
King Aemon and his men, after a forced march from victory at the Battle of Bekkar, known as the Field of Blood, held off overwhelming numbers of Trolloc and Shadowspawn for over ten days while awaiting promised reinforcements that never came. The King's battle cry, "Carai an Ellisande!, For the Honor of the Rose of the Sun!," was said to echo over the land until the Rose of the Sun herself, Queen Eldrene, could here it from the city. Eventually the sword that would not break was shattered by the Dark forces, aided by the faithlessness of allies. Stories record that Queen Eldrene's heart broke the moment Aemon died. An Aes Sedai, she reached out to the True Source, surely aided by a sa'angreal, to hunt down the victors, and supposedly sent balefire to consume the Dreadlords, Myrddraal, and Darkfriends where they stood. But the effort required more Power than anyone could wield unaided, and she and the city of Manetheren died in flames. Those who betrayed the Mountain Home by leaving her to face the foe alone escaped unpunished.
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I have to believe that this is one of those instances in which the BWB is inaccurate since if Eldrene were aided by a sa'angreal, she should have been buffered from drawing too much of the Power. I also wonder about whether the account that she used balefire to kill the enemy is accurate.
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vardene: 2008-08-08
First off, i like this theory because it introduces a new element to the debate for me. Refreshing. Briefly, i'll say that i think we should try to approach the events surrounding DM a little more scientifically if we want any progress.
What did LTT do? And what didn't he do? For one, there was a bar of fire and after some time, DM. Could a bar of fire create a single mountain like DM without an intelligence shaping its effects?
If LT was dead at that point who shaped? If he wwasn't how? plenty of questions. Any answers?
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terez: 2008-08-14
Asmodean isn't the only one that's said the Creator does not interfere; RJ has said it several times as well. Here's one example, from the Budapest Interview:
Q: Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?
RJ: No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but...
Q [interrupts]: Oh, is that a spoiler?? No no!
RJ: No, that's not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I've always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief, a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever...but, in this world, it is a world that...as if we had...prophets walking around...performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.
Q: But the Creator does not interfere!
RJ: The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.
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So it's not just a catch-phrase, to say that the Creator does not interfere. I don't believe that the fact that the bolt came from the heavens is all that significant, considering how normal lightning works. Lews Therin made no weaves - he simply drew in as much Power as he could, and apparently this caused some serious polarization. Not really surprising.
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Prof: 2008-10-01
Sorry for bumping this topic but I had to bring out a point.
"An Aes Sedai, she reached out to the True Source, surely aided by a sa'angreal, to hunt down the victors, and supposedly sent balefire to consume the Dreadlords, Myrddraal, and Darkfriends where they stood. But the effort required more Power than anyone could wield unaided, and she and the city of Manetheren died in flames. "
In the books we have several instances of channelers of being very tired after wielding the Power for long periods of time. The passage says that the EFFORT of wielding the power killed the queen. It's probable that she died from drawing on the power for too long, not too much at one time.
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terez: 2008-10-05
Prof, I think you're misreading that passage. The effort (to kill all of the enemies) required more Power than anyone could handle unaided. But it was the drawing of that amount of Power that killed her.
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vardene: 2009-01-02
as i've said, this theory brings a lot of freshness to TL. One idea i particularly like is that of the creator answering LT's call. But i think it needs to answer a lot of the questions it will eventually generate one way or another. LT himself said he doesn't beleiev the creator would interfere in anything that happens, so why did he cry out for the Light? And why draw so much on the OP if all he wanted was to ask foirgiveness? or even for a chat with the creator?
Two answers readily come to mind. First that he may still be very much insane, yet madmen are not known to ask forgiveness for sins commited. The other idea is that he was trying (or succeding) in breaching a barrier to reach the creator. Neither idea is completely satisfactory but hopefully, we'll get all the answers in aMoL.
I think it could be a really great theory if Thel could convince us why the creator would jump into this. Even in christianity, many hold the same belief that God does not interfere in the affairs of men without due cause. Hence various prayer forms and rituals.
In Randland, the primary responsibilkity for keeping the DO at bay is the Wheel's not the dragon's. The creator does not need to interfere unless he thought thge wheel was not capable of doing what it was designed to do.
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Belalan: 2009-06-16
Personally I am against your theory, but as it may be I can still help.
Interestingly enough, in past experiences with people drawing too much of the power, the white tower has not been obliterated by beams of light from the sky, but when Elayne tried to unweave the gateway in PoD, the area exploded much like what appears to have happened here.
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Arkhos: 2009-10-20
I'm new here so please bare with me.
I find this theory interesting for various reasons, and I'll try to be brief about them.
First we need to understand that WoT is very cyclical in nature, same players all the time. This is not necessarily the same people, but rather, incarnations of a particular task, duty or role. Such as Rand/Lews Therin as the Hero of The Light and Ishameal/Moridin as Hero of The Shadow (yes I know they are the same person). There are other constants like war between Light and Shadow, signs like famine and unnaturally poor weather. All these events/people come around near the end of each Age because the Pattern puts them there for the over all task of balance. This doesn't mean that the results are always the same, Ishameal says in TEoTW, iirc, that the Dragon has knelt to the DO in Ages past. Yet all the aspects needed are in place.
Second to understand is that RJ was a tricky bugger, and may well have placed clues in the beginning of all this.
Most importantly to grasp is that his works are drawn, at least partially, from the real world in ways we can't fully know until he, or Brandon Sanderson, tells us or the books show us. There are many parallels to Christian myth and legend, the messiah figure, the Fisher King, the Devil, the Knights Templar. So now that we have the pieces and the theory, let's try to put it all together.
We'll start with the Collam Daam and the Bore. We know that Lanfear and others essentially "dug" the DO out, so we know that when the Sharome detonated the Bore was now there. When LTT and the Hundred Companions went to seal the DO off they packed him back into the Bore and sealed it. The Bore was an existing prison. Let us follow the cyclical portion of WoT. If there was an existing prison in the AoL then there must be one in the current Age. Let us assume that is Dragon Mount and that the older prison is now obsolete due to corruption of the surrounding area. It would fit many essential needs for a good prison due to the proximity of guards, the White Tower, and the relatively depopulated area around it, omitting Tar Valon and supporting villages, to name a few.
Now that we have ascertained the cyclical nature, let us turn to real world representation. We can leave RJ being sneaky out. We know that there are several real world representations in the books. Rand serves double duty as the messiah figure, destined to die and be resurrected, this has happened as he is the reincarnation of LTT, and his role as the Fisher King, the obvious connections being his now impaired eyesight and wounds to the side. The less obvious being Moridin comparing the Fisher King piece of an AoL game to Rand in an earlier book. Those who don't know, the Fisher King is typically depicted as a blindfolded man holding his wounded side. The DO represents the Devil, obvious. The Children of The Light represent another order of warrior-monks, the Knights Templar, even down to the legend of their control over royalty. Another aspect that RJ could have reflected is that God, or the Creator, doesn't intervene so much as influence events. In Biblical traditions Jesus was carried up to Heaven by God after he made his sacrifice in the crucifixion. Let us assume, again, that RJ chose to parallel this style of event as well. We have Jesus asking forgiveness for all man, and we have LTT begging for the Light to forgive him. We have the death of those mentioned. We then have rare circumstances. Jesus was lifted to Heaven by God and LTT was absorbed by light, a thing we don't see when other channelers have burnt out. We now have connections and allegory.
Drawing on the above suppositions and allowing to change one perception of connection, we can logically use Thels theory. Substituting the Pattern for the Creator in the last event mentioned, we can use this to assume that the Pattern would 'want' a way to imprison the DO. And it would make a way. Using the LTTs suicide as the sacrifice makes this connection valid when compared to our own Biblical legends.
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PillowFriends: 2010-01-15
*** The Bore was an existing prison. ***
Can someone tell me if it is stated unequivocally that the Bore, the Pattern or whatever is actually a prison for the DO? I understand that is the perception of those who live in Randland, but could it just be a barrier which keeps the DO out and protects humanity? Humanity would not be able to detect the difference, and very likely would see it as a prison. If it is just a barrier of sorts to protect humanity, and the DO pretty much has the run of the rest of the universe, I think it changes how we have to look at this. It would certainly have an impact on Thel Dranmar's preferred option in this theory, option three.
