Tamyrlin: 2006-04-01

To be honest, I haven't really contemplated this idea...surprise surprise, since Verin is one of my favorite characters...so, at to your theory. I agree with those locations you ticked off your list, but I do like the White Tower as a better option than the Borderlands, for no better reason than a gut feel at the moment, but this gives me a reason to go back and study the subject with the search engine. I wish I had more to say, but I don't...just need to take some time and look up the quotes. Compelling theory, Callandor.

Callandor: 2006-04-01

It's going to get more compelling, Tam. ;)

I was too hasty in posting this (it was largely spur of the moment), and I have additional reasons that came after I submitted this. (To best mesh these together, I'd leave off my final paragraph of the original all together, and continue from below.)

Additions:

How she intends to get the Borderlanders to listen/come over to Rand, I really only have a guess on: Hurin. Yes, Hurin, the sniffer that Jordan explicitly told us that we would see again, and we didn't see him in Knife of Dreams.

**Week 5 Question: Will Hurin the Sniffer return in any of the remaining books? Please? We miss him. Could you share some insight as to why you decided not to use him after The Great Hunt?

Robert Jordan Answers: He'll turn up again. He hasn't reappeared earlier because the part he had to play was a sidelight to the main story. You should be able to glean some of what he was doing, what effect he and the news he brought was having, from the news that came out of the Borderlands in the books following The Dragon Reborn, though.**

How this could work is relatively simple acutally. We know that after Falme, Hurin traveled with Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat, and Verin to Tar Valon and then went to Shienar. Soon afterwards, there is unrest in the Borderlands:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 7 - A Matter of Thought

"The fighting in Shienar and Arafel is dying down," Sheriam murmured half to herself, "but still nothing here to say why it began. Skirmishes only, yet Bordermen do not fight one another. They have the Blight." She was Saldaean, and Saldaea was one of the Borderlands.**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 9 - Plans

There was no good news from the Borderlands, whatever Omerna thought. The "minor rebellions" Omerna reported were minor, but not rebellions of the sort the man thought. Along the Blightborder men were arguing over whether al'Thor was another false Dragon or the Dragon Reborn. Borderlanders being as they were, sometimes those arguments flared into small-scale battles. The fighting had begun in Shienar about the time the Stone of Tear was falling, confirmation of the witches' involvement if any was needed. How it would all be settled was yet in doubt, according to Balwer.**

Cause of this? Hurin of course.

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 11 - Tar Valon

Hurin shook his head emphatically. "I cannot waste a day, Verin Sedai. Not another hour. I must return to Shienar, to tell King Easar, and Lord Agelmar, the truth of what happened at Falme. I must tell them about - " He cut off abruptly and looked around. There was no one close enough to overhear, but he still lowered his voice and said only, "About Rand. That the Dragon is Reborn. There must be trading ships heading upriver, and I mean to be on the next to sail."**

The timing easily matches up that about the time Hurin got back to Shienar and told the events to the King that it was around the time that Rand took the Stone. Once the fighting stops, the Borderlanders start massing, and move south to where they currently are. They made a pitstop in Andor, and solidified the reasoning for why they left with what we knew:

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 27 - To Surprise Queens and Kings

Tenobia scowled, though Ethenielle did not even dart those sharp eyes in her direction. "What happened at Falme," the Queen of Kandor told Elayne, "is not so important as what came of it. No, Paitar; we must tell her what we must tell her. She already knows too much for anything else. We know that you were a companion to the Dragon Reborn at Falme, Elayne. A friend, perhaps. You are right; we have not come to invade. We have come to find the Dragon Reborn. And we have marched all this way only to find that no one knows where he is to be found. Do you know where he is?"**

And what of course is the obvious part? Verin was also at Falme. And, since Jordan said that we will see Hurin again, it makes perfect sense if he is with the Borderlanders. He's the tie that can be manipulated by Verin since he would back up that Verin knows Rand and can verify that if she says she could take them to Rand that she could. Heck, even without Hurin, they probably would follow anyone who would take them to Rand, but he makes it all the more likely. An added tidbit to this is:

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 11 - Tar Valon

"Go in the Light, then, Hurin of Shienar," Verin said. "The Light illumine all of you," he replied, gathering his reins. Yet he hesitated a moment, then added, "If you need me - ever - send word to Fal Dara, and I'll find a way to come." Clearing his throat as if embarrassed, he turned his horse and trotted away, heading beyond the Tower. All too soon he was lost to sight.**

Hurin has already given his word to help Verin in a way.

Finally, there is another quote adding to my view:

**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

Still seemingly intent on her embroidery needle, Cadsuane laughed softly. Verin's knitting needles had stopped. She was studying Logain, a plump sparrow studying an insect. Alivia had shifted her intense gaze to the man, too, and Harilin and Enaila seemed to be just going through the motions of their game. Min appeared to be reading still, but each hand rest near the opposite cuff of her coatsleeves. She kept some of her knives hidden there. None of them trusted him.**

Logain announces about the Borderlanders on page 390, this is page 391 -- only other thing Logain says is that it's brought about that he's a noble. I personally do not attribute that to why Verin is looking at him, but that's because he just said the information, later to be given more importance by Rand's revelation about the Aelfinn. Tenious or not, it's something.

Anyway, that’s where I believe Verin is headed. Whether she’s successful or not, or whether this factors perfectly into the Borderlanders plans or not, doesn’t truely matter. That’s where she’s headed.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-01

I really don't see why the Borderlanders is considered your most viable option. Not to say it isn't a good idea, but the very presence of the Borderland kings and queens outside their respective nations is incontrivertible proof that they intend to support Rand. That was the main hole in your assessment, I thought. They are already looking for him. So obviously, they don't need to be urged to come find and submit/bargain with him for alliance. They've done that of their own accord. And Verin knows that she cannot speak with any authority for Rand, and since she knows him, she knows that doing this is a surefire way to make him send her away/make her swear fealty (unless she already has, I forgot) with some added, nasty clauses.

I have to agree with Tamyrlin (as rare as it is) for a variety of reasons.

One: The White Tower is, almost by definition, the one place she can be most useful to Rand. Not in terms of subverting sisters, or anything of that nature, but because that is where most of the information Rand DOESN'T receive will most likely end up. Rand is on the move and betrayed by a large number of his own forces. He needs better intel, and where better to get it than an enemy camp? Now, Verin doesn't know about the situation in the Tower, and so doesn't realize how futile this effort may be, but based on the knowledge she has, its a smart move.

Two: The Tower represents really the only unknown for the Last Battle right now. We all know that Elaida WILL support Rand, one way or another, when Tarmon Gaidon rolls around. But the amount of support she gives beforehand is of vital importance, and the White Tower is more important to Rand, at least in Verin's opinion (being Aes Sedai herself) than the Borderlanders are. Which is true, because the influence, prestige, and raw power of the Tower are far greater than the advantages the Borderlanders have, especially since convincing the Tower is pretty much guaranteeing Borderland support.

Basically, I agree with almost your entire theory except its conclusion, and bits about the Tower. I just can't reconcile the fact that the Borderlanders, the one group that will come to Rand without any bickering at all are the object of Verin's energies with the fact that that does nothing to help Rand. As well as head to Bashere and tell him how much Rand needs him. Rand ignoring the north is even a sound tactical decision. Though I'm sure it wasn't intential.

Callandor: 2006-04-02

**Not to say it isn't a good idea, but the very presence of the Borderland kings and queens outside their respective nations is incontrivertible proof that they intend to support Rand. That was the main hole in your assessment, I thought. They are already looking for him. So obviously, they don't need to be urged to come find and submit/bargain with him for alliance. They've done that of their own accord.**

Are they with him though? Do they know where he is? Is Rand even factoring them into his thought chains? From what we've seen, the answer to all three is no. That's what Verin will rectify. Bringing the rulers to Rand is incredibly important because it fulfills a key part of the prophecies about Rand, and one Rand seems to be skipping entirely. Verin doesn't need to twist their arms into getting them to come to Rand (or just agree to follow him); she just needs to bring them to him, him to them, or word of their alliance to him.

**And Verin knows that she cannot speak with any authority for Rand, and since she knows him, she knows that doing this is a surefire way to make him send her away/make her swear fealty (unless she already has, I forgot) with some added, nasty clauses.**

Verin has already sworn fealty -- she was one of the nine at Dumai's Wells that did.

And why would Rand be angry? In one fell swoop Verin would be giving Rand four key allies, and over 200,000 more forces to be used -- you can also toss in the 13 Aes Sedai if you want, depending on your own personal feelings.

I don't see how this could possibly make Rand mad. He's getting the southern forces into line via the Seanchan, he already has the eastern by what he's conquered/allied with, and Verin will pick up the important change of the north. Randland is practically united entirely under Rand then by those two actions. Rand can then move on to the Black Tower or the Shadow with far more ease.

**One: The White Tower is, almost by definition, the one place she can be most useful to Rand. Not in terms of subverting sisters, or anything of that nature, but because that is where most of the information Rand DOESN'T receive will most likely end up. Rand is on the move and betrayed by a large number of his own forces. He needs better intel, and where better to get it than an enemy camp? Now, Verin doesn't know about the situation in the Tower, and so doesn't realize how futile this effort may be, but based on the knowledge she has, its a smart move.**

Why? Why does Rand need intelligence from inside the White Tower? Rand listed his present objectives as clear as glass right before Verin left -- none of it touched on the White Tower.

**Two: The Tower represents really the only unknown for the Last Battle right now. We all know that Elaida WILL support Rand, one way or another, when Tarmon Gaidon rolls around. But the amount of support she gives beforehand is of vital importance, and the White Tower is more important to Rand, at least in Verin's opinion (being Aes Sedai herself) than the Borderlanders are. Which is true, because the influence, prestige, and raw power of the Tower are far greater than the advantages the Borderlanders have, especially since convincing the Tower is pretty much guaranteeing Borderland support.**

Right, because the Borderlanders were so willing to accept Elaida's influence -- you know when they completely avoided her and kept their plans totally separated from her in doing this by coming south.

And, again, how in light of the information Verin just recieved in the chapter is the White Tower more important than the Borderlanders? It's Foretold that Rand needs the north, and the rulers are all centrally located in an area Verin knows generally and can easily find specifically.

**Basically, I agree with almost your entire theory except its conclusion, and bits about the Tower. I just can't reconcile the fact that the Borderlanders, the one group that will come to Rand without any bickering at all are the object of Verin's energies with the fact that that does nothing to help Rand.**

Nothing to help Rand?? C'mon man, with them in tow (and they are not now) and an alliance with the Seanchan Rand would have effective control over the entire span of Randland -- how does that not help him?

You're essentially rejecting the entire point of this theory because you feel Verin better serves Rand's interest by going to the Tower to be a spy. Again, how is that working with what was revealed to Verin? You said you agree with everything but the conclusion, so you agree that what spurred Verin to leave was something she just learned and was to help Rand. The White Tower didn't factor into any of Rand's plans, let alone a need for more intelligence from there.

Compared to a twice recongized (technically three, but Verin doesn't know of the third, and her knowing of the second is just a high likelihood) prophecized plan, the explanation of that plan, and the information given to carry out that plan all given in the chapter just before Verin leaves.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-02

The fact that Rand hasn't thought about the Northerners is even a sound tactical decision. Put it this way. Up to this point, every important conceivable objective he has has been in the South. Or rather, below Cairhien and Andor. The Forsaken are down there. Nations which will need to be forcibly bound to him are down there. Its a recognized fact that the southern nobles are rebellious, independant, and scheming, probably a lot more willing and skilled at playing the Game of Houses than the Borderland nobles. Rand NEEDS more time in the south, because he has to make an example of and crush these rebellious factions before he can even has a chance at assuming they'll follow him willingly.

On the other hand, the four Borderland nations are extremely willing to come to Rand. They KNOW about Trollocs, and therefore will have a much more acute sense of what the Last Battle entails, and will accept it as an eventuality rather than a fantasy. In addition to this, the Borderlanders would be put to only one task right now anyways; to guard the Borderlands, something they're already doing. Why go north for support when you know that most of that support will have to stay where it is? With his Aiel, Tairen, Illainer, and Cairhiened units he has a great deal of mobility, especially the Aiel. They can go more or less where needed (like Arad Doman) without Rand having serious qualms about their use elsewhere. Not so with the Borderlanders. Admittedly, they HAVE moved units south to find Rand, but by their own admission they left large numbers behind, and besides, they would be much less likely to bring quite so much with them if it was someone else making the decision for them instead of themselves.

And let me say a few things about the value of the White Tower. Its influence is huge, even when split. You say the Borderland rulers don’t care about Elaida’s opinion? They acted without Elaida’s advice, NOT in disregard to anything she said.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 7 - Blood Calls Blood

"You should have done that last night." The Warder tossed a white silk shirt onto the bed. "No one refuses an audience with the Amyrlin Seat, sheepherder. Not the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks himself. Pedron Niall might spend the trip planning how to kill her, if he could do it and get away, but he would come."

Clearly, whether or not you like the Tower, its influence and power is undeniable. Having the Tower on his side would be the biggest coup Rand has pulled off since getting the Aiel. Even with the Tower split (and this might well reunite it), as a symbol its value is incomparable, and gaining the Tower, as I said, will probably drag all the other non Seanchan-owned lands under Rand’s control, and also quell many of the plots against him.

So what is it that Verin can do? Be a guide? Let us be perfectly honest here… with the advent of Traveling, if this was Verin’s task, she would HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE. Travel to the Borderland camp, get kings, queens, and retinues, bring them to Rand, boom, done. That would take a maximum of a few days, probably less. Besides, Verin knows that the Borderlanders are a card that does not need to be played right now. It tactically more sound to let them sit there and have Rand scoop them up on his way north, rather than have them come all the way south merely to be packed off north, or to Arad Doman, or something. So in all honesty, her destination pretty much can’t be the Borderland camp, because if it was we would already see results. I personally think the Tower, but I see the weaknesses in that choice as well.

I want to propose another option. Research. While Verin is an old Aes Sedai, as such things go, she certainly doesn’t know everything there is to know. And as a Brown, we know that this is her specialty. We have seen this happen before. Moiraine goes off in the Great Hunt, saying she is helping Rand, and goes off to study with Adeleas and Vandene. Why is this such an impossibility for Verin? As a Brown she is inclined towards this line of work, and beyond that, she has already had access to special sources of knowledge (as evidenced by her habit of squirreling things away like the ring ter’angreal). Maybe those pointed her to some other place or area she should go to learn more about something important, and she is just now finding time, or realizing where to go? I don’t suggest this as likely, but it demonstrates none of the weaknesses of any of the other places Callandor mentioned.

Callandor: 2006-04-02

**The fact that Rand hasn't thought about the Northerners is even a sound tactical decision. Put it this way. Up to this point, every important conceivable objective he has has been in the South. Or rather, below Cairhien and Andor. The Forsaken are down there. Nations which will need to be forcibly bound to him are down there. Its a recognized fact that the southern nobles are rebellious, independant, and scheming, probably a lot more willing and skilled at playing the Game of Houses than the Borderland nobles. Rand NEEDS more time in the south, because he has to make an example of and crush these rebellious factions before he can even has a chance at assuming they'll follow him willingly.**

1. The Eye of the World? The Horn of Valere? The White Tower (with Mesaana)? Arad Doman (with Graendal)? Those I'd say are quite important objectives, and they were far before this point in the series (and some still are), yet they're not in the south.

2. You're going to have to talk to Lan about ignoring the Borderlanders being a "sound tactical decision." As I said, Lan, one of Rand's longest friends, supporters, and fighters, is even expressing that Rand needs to turn north. Not to mention the Borderlander's feelings in the first place -- they didn't go south because they felt like it; it's because Rand was ignoring the Borderlanders.

3. Call it semantics, but tactics are short-term methods. Since Rand hasn't yet done anything with the Borderlanders as the Dragon Reborn (unless you want to call a stop over there before he even claimed being the Dragon Reborn, and the few things he did with the Shienarians that followed after the Horn) yet in the series, that hardly seems short term.

4. Who CARES how much time Rand has to spend with the people? That's not a sound decision; that's Rand going into things head first (his decision to speed after Callandor wasn't as if he spent months and months planning it and the reprocussions; nor his invasion of Cairhien after Couladin), and getting bogged down with them.

**On the other hand, the four Borderland nations are extremely willing to come to Rand.**

Yet the only reason we are given for why is that they say the Last Battle is coming -- strange way that they're going about it, for such a simple reason. Couriers were created so rulers don't have to go everywhere, you know.

**In addition to this, the Borderlanders would be put to only one task right now anyways; to guard the Borderlands, something they're already doing. Why go north for support when you know that most of that support will have to stay where it is?**

It's exceedingly strange how they were able to come south in such force as they did then, huh?

**Admittedly, they HAVE moved units south to find Rand, but by their own admission they left large numbers behind, and besides, they would be much less likely to bring quite so much with them if it was someone else making the decision for them instead of themselves.**

1. So, you admit to making your first point completely irrelevant, and that if Rand did go north he would've gotten plenty of support?

2. I don't get what you're saying about someone else making the decision for them. Are you saying the Borderland rulers were directed to go south in the way that they did? (completely irrelevant to the entire discussion as it is; the rulers actual reasons/how it came about they went south isn't impending upon why Verin would seek them out). Or are you saying that if Rand had gone north to get their alliance, and they accepted him, that they would've rebuffed him and said "Are you mad? We can't send 200,000 men to wherever you need to go. 50,000 will have to do. We have the Blight to guard!"? Neither seems to make much of any sense.

**And let me say a few things about the value of the White Tower. Its influence is huge, even when split.**

And notice how certain people are responding to that influence, while it's split (I especially like the mercenaries in Knife of Dreams for this example).

**You say the Borderland rulers don’t care about Elaida’s opinion? They acted without Elaida’s advice, NOT in disregard to anything she said.**

Right, they just kept delaying, and delaying, and delaying her envoys, and even secreted themselves out of their own kingdoms to have this adventure.

**Clearly, whether or not you like the Tower, its influence and power is undeniable.**

I do love that you put a quote about the White Tower's influence as an example, when it's before the Tower was split. Can't let this stand, so return salvo!

**TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 16 - A New Follower

"Do we really have need of the Aes Sedai, my Lady?" Bakuvun asked. "The other Aes Sedai," he added, glancing at her Great Serpent ring. He held out his silver cup, and one of the maids darted to fill it. They were both pretty women, perhaps not the best choices, but Reene had not much to choose from; most of the maids were either young or else aged and not so spry as they once had been. "All they've done the whole time we've been here is try to put us in awe of the White Tower's might and reach. I respect Aes Sedai as much as any man, yes, I do indeed, but if you'll forgive me, it gets tiresome when they turn to trying to browbeat a man. I vow it does, my Lady."

"A wise man always stands in awe of the Tower," Sareitha said calmly, shifting her brown-fringed shawl, perhaps to draw attention to it. Her dark, square face lacked the ageless look as yet, and she admitted yearning for it.

"Only fools fail to stand in awe of the Tower," Careane said on Sareitha's heels. A bulky woman, as wide in shoulders as most men, the Green had no need for gestures. Her coppery face proclaimed what she was to anyone who knew what to look for as loudly as did the ring on her right finger.

"The word I hear," Gomaisen said darkly, "is that Tar Valon is besieged. I hear the White Tower is split, with two Amyrlins. I even hear the Tower itself is held by the Black Ajah." A brave man, to mention that rumor to Aes Sedai, but he still flinched saying it. Flinched and went right on. "Who is it you want us to be in awe of?"**

Seems kinda strange for lowly mercenaries to be so resilliant to the influence of the Tower. But perhaps they're just insane. How about the rulers themselves?

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 15 - What Can Be Learned in Dreams

Sighing, she opened it again. The papers inside looked different. Holding the lid, she lifted them out one by one and read quickly. Or tried to read. Sometimes the letters and reports vanished while she was still picking them up, sometimes when she was no more than halfway down a page. If they had a salutation, it was simply, "Mother, with respect." Some were signed by Aes Sedai, others by women with other titles, nobles, or no honorific at all. None of it seemed to bear on the matter at hand. The Marshal General of Saldaea and his army could not be found, and Queen Tenobia was refusing to cooperate; she managed to finish that report, but it assumed that the reader knew why the man was not in Saldaea and what the queen was supposed to be cooperating about. No report had come from any Ajah's eyes-and-ears in Tanchico for three weeks; but she got no further than that one fact. Some trouble between Illian on one side and Murandy on the other was abating, and Pedron Niall was claiming credit; even in the few lines she got she could see the writer's teeth gnashing. The letters were all no doubt very important, those she was able to hurry through and those that faded away under her eyes, but of no use to her at all. She had just begun what seemed to be a report on a suspected-that was the word used- gathering of Blue sisters, when a wretched cry of "Oh, Light, no!" came from the outer room.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 49 - To Boannda

Having begun, it was easier to go on than to stop. Every night after that they entered Tel'aran'rhiod together, always with a visit to the Tower to see what they could learn. There was not very much, besides an order sending an emissary to Salidar to invite the Aes Sedai there to return to the Tower. Except, the invitation-as much as Nynaeve could read before it changed to a report on screening potential novices for proper attitudes, whatever that was supposed to mean-was more a demand that those Aes Sedai submit to Elaida immediately and be thankful they were allowed to. Still, it was confirmation that they were not chasing a wild hare. The trouble with the rest of what they saw in fragments was they did not know enough to fit them together. Who was this Davram Bashere, and why was Elaida so frantic to find him? Why had Elaida forbidden anyone to mention the name of Mazrim Taim, the false Dragon, with a threat of stiff penalties? Why had Queen Tenobia of Saldaea and King Easar of Shienar both written letters politely but stiffly resenting White Tower meddling in their affairs? It all made Elayne murmur one of Lini's sayings: "To know two, you must first know one." Nynaeve could only agree that it certainly seemed so.**

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings

Her hands clenched, and a tiny crackle came from the strip of paper. The ring has been placed in the bull's nose. Alviarin looked as composed as a marble statue, but Elaida no longer cared. The shepherd was on his way to her. The rebels would be crushed and the Hall cowed, Alviarin forced to her knees and every fractious ruler brought to heel, from Tenobia of Saldaea, who had gone into hiding to avoid her emissary, to Mattin Stepaneos of Illian, who was trying to play all sides at once again, trying to agree with her and the Whitecloaks, and with al'Thor for all she knew. Elayne would be placed on the throne in Caemlyn, without her brother to get in the way and with a full knowledge of who had set her there. A little time back in the Tower would make the girl damp clay in Elaida's hands.**

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances

"And I have five more," Tenobia put in as if announcing she had a new pair of slippers. "They found me just before I left Saldaea. By chance, I'm sure; they appeared as surprised as I was. Once they learned what I was doing--I still don't know how they did, but they did--once they learned, I was sure they'd go scurrying to find Memara." Her brows furrowed in a momentary glare. Elaida had miscalculated badly in sending a sister to try bullying Tenobia. "Instead," she finished, "Illeisien and the rest were more intent on secrecy than I."**

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 27 - To Surprise Queens and Kings

"The Tower meddles everywhere," Tenobia muttered. "No, Ethenielle; I will say this! The whole world knows the Tower is divided. Do you follow Elaida or the rebels, Elayne?"**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 7 - A Matter of Thought

Paper truly was ephemeral. Amid vexed tsks and annoyed sighs, the Aes Sedai persevered. "Here's a report from Danelle," Myrelle said, hastily scanning a page. Siuan tried to join them--Danelle, a young Brown, had been part of the cabal that deposed her--but Beonin gave her a sharp frown that sent her back to a corner grumbling to herself. Beonin had returned her attention to the box and its documents before Siuan had taken three steps; the other two women never noticed. Myrelle went right on talking. "She says that Mattin Stepaneos accepts wholeheartedly, Roedran is still trying to take every side, while Alliandre and Tylin want more time to consider their answers. There's a note here in Elaida's hand. 'Press them!'" She clicked her tongue as the report melted into air in her hand. "It did not say about what, but there can be only two possibilities to take in those four." Mattin Stepaneos was King of Illian and Roedran of Murandy, while Alliandre was Queen of Ghealdan and Tylin of Altara. The subject had to be Rand or the Aes Sedai opposing Elaida.**

Since many rulers have already ignored, side-stepped, or essentially refuted White Tower influence, I fail to see why Verin would go there to get the Borderlanders.

Verin has what she needs: knowledge, and connections. She knows where the Borderlanders are, she knows what they're after, and can get them what they want. What more is needed?

**Having the Tower on his side would be the biggest coup Rand has pulled off since getting the Aiel.**

Ah, so Verin went off to help Egwene, I take it? Without knowing about her kidnapping, so she'd think she was beseiging the Tower at best. As I said originally: what can Verin do but be one amongst 300?

**So what is it that Verin can do? Be a guide? Let us be perfectly honest here… with the advent of Traveling, if this was Verin’s task, she would HAVE ALREADY BEEN DONE. Travel to the Borderland camp, get kings, queens, and retinues, bring them to Rand, boom, done.**

Who says she's not done already? I surely don't. I just say that's where she's gone.

** Besides, Verin knows that the Borderlanders are a card that does not need to be played right now. It tactically more sound to let them sit there and have Rand scoop them up on his way north, rather than have them come all the way south merely to be packed off north, or to Arad Doman, or something.**

But that's exactly the problem! Rand is NOT focusing on the north.

**So in all honesty, her destination pretty much can’t be the Borderland camp, because if it was we would already see results. I personally think the Tower, but I see the weaknesses in that choice as well.**

Again, what can she do in the Tower that can any more results than anything else? Help Egwene become Amyrlin? Sure -- her and 300 other Aes Sedai. Help her undermine Elaida? Doesn't know she's in the Tower as a captive.

And since you think we'd already see results, how come if her destination is the White Tower we don't see her in the Salidar camp (the Hall sitting was the DAY AFTER VERIN LEFT) or in the White Tower (Egwene's last chapter is the same day as the Hall sitting)?

**Why is this such an impossibility for Verin?**

It's not -- it just doesn't meet the criteria nearly as well as the Borderlanders do.

1. What did she learn that was so important that it needed to be researched right then?

2. How would this research serve Rand?

It's pure guesswork compared to a known topic of great importance that we are given full knowledge of right before Verin leaves.

Traveller: 2006-04-03

Well it obviously isn't the only option as to where Verin went, but I completely agree with where hurin has gone, as this makes total and utter sense, and the one quote you gave that makes me think that you are right i:

"If you need me - ever - send word to Fal Dara, and I'll find a way to come."

As she doesn't seem the type of Aes Sedai with lots of free time to go and help random people. Also, I believe that if this is so, perhaps Verin persuaded/manipulated Hurin into going to the Borderlands. I can't remember ho wlong she was in his company, but it seems to me like a good reason for her to offer her help to him if he needs any.

Stilicho: 2006-04-03

Callandor, what do you think of the idea raised on the boards that Verin is going to get the Horn of Valere? In TEOTW, Moiraine is insistent that the Horn's role in events requires it to be in Illian. Right now, it's in the Tower. Perhaps Verin will retrieve the Horn and convince the Borderlanders to take it to Illian.

New Forsaken: 2006-04-03

I think in this case the simplest answer is the best. When we last saw her the group was talking about the Last Battle being almost on top of them. Verin went to get the Horn and then find Matt the only one of the three she has not spent any time with since the Great Hunt.

Saidar Haran: 2006-04-03

**And Verin knows that she cannot speak with any authority for Rand, and since she knows him, she knows that doing this is a surefire way to make him send her away/make her swear fealty (unless she already has, I forgot) with some added, nasty clauses.**

While Rand doesn't truly trust anyone, Verin is one of those who comes closest to being trusted. And he wouldn't send her away for this.

Also, I think it is a possibility that

a) Verin brought the Rulers back to Rand to swear fealty while he was out

b) She is trying to convince them to return to the Borderlands.

I personally think B is more likely, since the fact that the Borderland Armies have left the border seems to be a major concern to all the Aes Sedai who know of it.

blytzd: 2006-04-03

Verin could be a Darkfriend but still wants Rand to live. First off the Dark One doesn't want Rand dead (according to the Forsaken in the later books at least)so that is reason enough for Verin to sit back and not kill Rand outright if she could.

Secondly she was going to kill Cadsuane because she may have thought Cadsuane was black and needed to be rid of the competition (or Cadsuane wrecking her plans).

Third, Verin is a brown so there is no telling what she actually knows... most likely she knows some extremely vital infomation.

That info could be why Rand must die, or maybe she knows if she is the one to kill Rand that she will be Nae'blis or something similiar (I'm not assuming she even knows what a Nae'blis is?). I think the possibility of Verin being a Darkfriend is good because she is wrapped in mystery. What else could she be hiding? Most people are mysterious because they are hiding something and in Randland the greatest secret is a "Dark" one.

To couter you main resolution, why would Verin go on a political mission? She isnt a grey or a blue she is a brown, and browns aren't negotiators or peace makers or anything like that... It just isn't Verin. Besides why would she be secretive about it? Does anyone think the Borderlanders wouldn't support Rand even if they are PO'd at him, they have waited their entire lives for this. Its like the South sitting on their arse while the US gets invaded... not gonna happen.

Overall, I'm not convinced she is black but it is certainly a possibility on the table.

"et tu, Verin"

haertchen: 2006-04-03

***First off the Dark One doesn't want Rand dead (according to the Forsaken in the later books at least)so that is reason enough for Verin to sit back and not kill Rand outright if she could.***

Except that Verin helped with the cleansing. I think the books made it very clear that not having Sadin cleansed was a higher priority than having Rand stay alive.

She wouldn't have had to do much to sabotage him, and unlike Elza she was under no compulsion to obey Rand. (Compulsion that, BTW, Verin put there.) Just plead "The forsaken overwhelmed us!" and Rand is toast and the cleansing stopped.

JakOShadows: 2006-04-03

blytzed:

Actually, she was probably the only other Aes Sedai besides Siuan and Moiraine that knew and actively tried to shape Rand into the Dragon Reborn. So I think she would not be likely to be BA, but rather most likely to be helping indirectly. Cadsuane came later and has a different purpose(while still beneficial), so that is why Verin was worried about her. And even if she is of the Brown Ajah, she is one of the most active and diverse AS we have seen through the whole series. She tried to help with the rebel tower's embassy to Rand. She helped out Perrin when he went back to the Two Rivers. Not to mention helping Moiraine and Siuan. She just hides it through her guise of absent mindedness that most AS attribute to the Brown Ajah. She probably one of my favorite AS to read about for that reason.

To others:

Personally, I believe either could be possible. It depends which would be the most important element. The fact that she might have reacted to a piece of information mentioned points most likely to it being the borderlanders. But what would she be worrying about. Most likely, she just needs to make a formal treaty and figure out what the AS are after. But in the overall picture, the Horn of Valere is the most important. The only problem with this is that Verin has no clue where Mat is. So why would she try to do something about it if there is nothing to do once she has it? Why risk getting involved with the tower and being drawn away from Rand when she doesn't know where to go after she has the Horn? So when looking back at the two situations, the Horn is the more important issue at the moment, but she can't do anything about it with any certainty. The less important thing is the borderlanders, but it is the most likely, because she could handle it a lot better. She doesn't even have to have the blessing of Rand, because she make a deal from AS to ruler, or use her manipulation. Either way, she can convince them to approach Rand and then help protect the north. She wouldn't risk her situation now for a chancy plot at the tower, she can be far more useful around Rand. There are merits to both arguments, so I believe both are possible; but strategically, the borderlanders are more important to deal with in my opinion.

And another thing some of you are forgeting is that when Egwene becomes Amrylin, she could get the Horn because she knows its there. She doesn't know where, but she could order the search of the tower, etc. Verin doesn't need to find it herself, so she might not even plan on going there if she had to leave Rand anyway. She probably has taken that into consideration if she knows about what events have taken place with the events surrounding the unification of the tower. And this point can be argued as well, but she seems more informed than most AS about worldly events, even while being in the Brown Ajah. So its not going to be the end of the world if she doesn't retrieve the horn, because Rand will have to meet Egwene and she can give him the Horn then. Verin doesn't have to take care of this personally. Where as the borderlanders seem like their going to stir up trouble, and no one is doing anything about is so far. It seems like the most volatile situation to Rand right now.

Callandor: 2006-04-03

**Also, I believe that if this is so, perhaps Verin persuaded/manipulated Hurin into going to the Borderlands. I can't remember ho wlong she was in his company, but it seems to me like a good reason for her to offer her help to him if he needs any.**

No, I don't think Verin coerced Hurin into anything. Hurin was in service to the King of Shienar, and would have to report what came of the search for the Horn eventually. He just knew that the King would want to know immediately, and about Rand being the Dragon Reborn.

**Callandor, what do you think of the idea raised on the boards that Verin is going to get the Horn of Valere?**

As I said originally, it's a pretty decent second option, but it has two major flaws: Verin didn't get any new information about the Horn/necessity for the Horn, and Mat would need the Horn if anyone, not Rand. I mean Verin's known where the Horn has been for 8 books now, and the new information about the ghosts and villiages appearing that Verin mentions in the chapter even Cadsuane says are days old; hardly something that spurred Verin to go seeking right away for. And again, Mat is the Hornsounder, not Rand, and Verin almost assuredly has absolutely no clue where Mat is at this point. The Horn is far better off just staying in it's place for the time being.

The Horn itself I don't think has to be in Illian ever -- it just needs to go to Mat. Whether he gets it in Illian (which seems strange since he's not heading that way) or not doesn't make a difference I feel.

**I think in this case the simplest answer is the best. When we last saw her the group was talking about the Last Battle being almost on top of them. Verin went to get the Horn and then find Matt the only one of the three she has not spent any time with since the Great Hunt.**

But again even Cadsuane says that the information about the signs of the Last Battle approaching is old news basically (at least a few days). Why would Verin wait a few days in Rand's company then run off on old news if it was so important?

And your logic is hardly convincing. The group talked about a plethora of topics, which is why I had the brake down (even including topics they didn't talk about). And they did talk about the key supports to my theory, so what you're using to disqualify my theory is the same logic I'm using to convey it.

**Verin could be a Darkfriend but still wants Rand to live. First off the Dark One doesn't want Rand dead (according to the Forsaken in the later books at least)so that is reason enough for Verin to sit back and not kill Rand outright if she could.**

Why would Verin nearly kill Cadsuane, then only stop because she was "sure" of her, if she was a Darkfriend? Cadsuane is clearly a Light-follower, so wouldn't that be much better if she was a Darkfriend as well?

And, again, we've had Verin's POV four times in the series, including when she faced Graendal at the Cleansing (whom she identified as a "Forsaken" and didn't know who it was at all). I can't see Verin at all being another Elza.

**Secondly she was going to kill Cadsuane because she may have thought Cadsuane was black and needed to be rid of the competition (or Cadsuane wrecking her plans).**

Name another Black Ajah that's killed a Black Ajah for coming into their plans. Black Ajah work together when they meet -- as shown quite well with Knife of Dreams, not to mention Elza thinking of working with Fera (another Black Ajah).

**That info could be why Rand must die, or maybe she knows if she is the one to kill Rand that she will be Nae'blis or something similiar (I'm not assuming she even knows what a Nae'blis is?).**

If she's going to kill Rand to become the Nae'blis, yeah, she'd know what the Nae'blis is.

But that's equally impossible due to the Dark One's bias against 3rd Agers.

** think the possibility of Verin being a Darkfriend is good because she is wrapped in mystery. What else could she be hiding? Most people are mysterious because they are hiding something and in Randland the greatest secret is a "Dark" one.**

So, Verin's been working for 70 years or so -- 50 of them or so before Rand was born -- on working toward this elusive goal of apparently wanting to kill Rand?

**To couter you main resolution, why would Verin go on a political mission?**

Because Verin recently learned Rand's plan: to unite Randland between himself and a truce with the Seanchan. Rand needs the north, he's ignoring it, so she's going to go get it for him. She knows the reasons why, she has a potential link in, she knows what they want, and she knows where they are.

**Besides why would she be secretive about it? **

She's Aes Sedai? She's Verin? She'd thought Rand might not see the true value of it at first glance (or even take it for something else, like she had broken her oath and was a Darkfriend)? Because she didn't want Cadsuane to know? Because she was worrying about actual Black Ajah amongst Rand's group?

**Does anyone think the Borderlanders wouldn't support Rand even if they are PO'd at him, they have waited their entire lives for this.**

It's because the quiet time is quickly ending. The Last Battle approaching is old news for Verin to act on for getting the Horn, but getting the entirety of Randland in order and then getting the Horn are still important and need to be done.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-03

But Callandor, her going to see the Borderlanders doesn't fit any of the criteria either! Firstly, if she was done, we would know, because she would be back. Its clear that whatever she's doing is not quite done yet.

Call it a hunch, but aside from the obvious errors in the decision making process if she went to the Borderland camp, such as the fact that ANYONE can be sent (I mean, she knows staying by Rand can and will help a great deal in the long run, why does she go scurrying off on this escort mission when ANYONE else can do it just as well), it just doesn't feel right.

I've made all the other points I want to make, but this is another good one... the seals. Is Rand still in posession of the other seals? Could she be going to retrieve the seals? That would definetly be a help, and something not just anyone could do besides. Just the very idea of her visiting the northern kings and queens is ridiculous from all viewpoints, both because it doesn't require her presence personally, and besides which it doesn't make much sense and would already by concluded.

sogoloth: 2006-04-04

I agree with this theory. I think the Hurin tie-in cinches it for me. RJ had noted that Hurin would return and we haven't seen him yet. This would be a very logical tie-in and would do a great deal to help Rand. Good job Cal.

Flinnd: 2006-04-04

I am going to have to agree with this theory. The boarderlanders need to be included in the final preparations for the last battle and if Verin does not go to them, it is very likely Rand will not remember their importance.

For those of you hung up on the Horn of Valere and the necessity of getting it to Mat, remember that Moraine is one of the extremely limited number of people that knows exactly where it is being kept. Add to this that Mat will be with Moraine after joining Thom with the rescue. All we need from there is Moraine picking up traveling from one of the many Aes Sedai who know the weave and we have a small group of people with the necessary knowledge and vested interest in finding the horn.

As a result, I do not believe it is necessary for Verin to retrieve the horn, which makes her journey to the White Tower completely irrelevant and makes the securing of the borderlanders even more likely than it already is.

Callandor: 2006-04-04

**The fact that she might have reacted to a piece of information mentioned points most likely to it being the borderlanders.**

She clearly reacted to something in the chapter that set her off to leave immediately -- information from that chapter is the only thing that makes sense. The one that fits the best into what was also given in the chapter, is the Borderlanders.

** So when looking back at the two situations, the Horn is the more important issue at the moment, but she can't do anything about it with any certainty. The less important thing is the borderlanders, but it is the most likely, because she could handle it a lot better.**

Overall, yes, the Horn is probably the more pivital factor; but as you said, Verin can't do much beyond that. I consider it a matter of ease and goals. Rand's goals are clearly stated for the short run (roughly the long run, anyway, but he could easily do more stuff as well). Verin completing even one of those goals, if not one that can be argued to be the most essential, in the "easiest" way.

**And another thing some of you are forgeting is that when Egwene becomes Amrylin, she could get the Horn because she knows its there. She doesn't know where, but she could order the search of the tower, etc.**

She could just order Siuan, if she ever asks her what happened to the Horn. But, yes, Verin isn't the only one that needs to get the Horn.

**But Callandor, her going to see the Borderlanders doesn't fit any of the criteria either! Firstly, if she was done, we would know, because she would be back. Its clear that whatever she's doing is not quite done yet.**

Again, I said that's where she went, not where she returned from. Whether she's done, just warming up, having a tough time, taking her ease, or developing an ulcer from dealing with Tenobia -- I do not care. She went to the Borderlanders; that's the key point.

And how does Verin going to the Borderlanders not fit any of the criteria?? It fits every single one of them: she clearly would view the outcome as beneficial to Rand since it gets a large part of his plan complete, she knows the destination generally and it'd be incredibly easy to get a specific area from around there, the specified area is away from Rand, and it came from new information/stuff she just found out spurring her to leave. How is this not meeting any of the criteria?

**Call it a hunch, but aside from the obvious errors in the decision making process if she went to the Borderland camp, such as the fact that ANYONE can be sent (I mean, she knows staying by Rand can and will help a great deal in the long run, why does she go scurrying off on this escort mission when ANYONE else can do it just as well), it just doesn't feel right.**

So disagree for that reason: You don't like it. Fine. But it's hardly convincing at all to me in light of the evidence I've presented, and you're doing nothing to refute my standing to any degree.

And, remember, Verin has an attribute that only one other person in Rand's group (Nynaeve) has: Hurin knows her, knows her connection to Rand, has already pledged to help her, and Verin would have strong reason to think that he'd be with the King of Shienar since he's vassel to the King.

**Is Rand still in posession of the other seals? Could she be going to retrieve the seals?**

Verin almost assuredly doesn't know where they are. As far as we know, only Rand knows where they are, and it's quite possible Bashere knows where one of them is. Moridin seems to know that all three were last in Rand's possession, but Verin almost beyond a doubt does not or if she does she wouldn't know where they are secreted.

**That would definetly be a help, and something not just anyone could do besides.**

Why would it be a help? The Forsaken are expecting them to be with Rand or hidden. And, the seals are incredibly fragile, you know. Best if they stay put for as long as possible.

**Just the very idea of her visiting the northern kings and queens is ridiculous from all viewpoints, both because it doesn't require her presence personally, and besides which it doesn't make much sense and would already by concluded.**

All I can read in this is: You don't like this theory. Again, fine. But you haven't given any good objections and I've refuted every one that you have. If it doesn't feel right, ok. That's your view, on a gut reaction.

**For those of you hung up on the Horn of Valere and the necessity of getting it to Mat, remember that Moraine is one of the extremely limited number of people that knows exactly where it is being kept.**

Actually, she's not. She knows it's in the Tower, of course (well, not "knows" since she didn't see it get dropped off there, but she has no reason at all to suspect otherwise), but only Verin, Siuan, and possibly Leane know specifically where the Horn has been secreted.

Ashaman Zach: 2006-04-06

Okay, nice theory, i like it. I think that Lan will take care of the Borderlands, but Verin doesnt know about him so it is possible that she went there. But the only problem i have with the theory is this: you are assuming that Verin got new info and left imediatly. This doesnt have to be true. it could be that she had been prepairing and planning to leave before then and left on scheduel. We are really assuming too much that she left on the spur of the moment. I still think the Borderlands likely, but i dont think it necessary that she left immediatly upon hearing info about it. If we take out that assumption, I think the white tower is just as likely her destination. All in all tho, nice theory Callandor.

evilbeaver: 2006-04-06

She might have gone on vacation. The last battle's coming, & this might be her last chance to have margaritas at a beach in Illian.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2006-04-06

I say she went to get the horn since she believes Siuan is dead, or unable to access it. She would be the first Dragonsworn Aes Sedai to return to the Tower, which needs to happen, because the presenc of Dragonsworn Aes Sedai are just what is needed to rally all the Tower, and the rebels to the same side.

Verin doesn't care about the north, she cares about the Tower, like all Aes Sedai. I don't think she can prioritize anything over the Tower and by extension, the Horn.

Wish I had more time to argue...

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-04-07

Have to say I'm sitting on the fence in regards to where Verin went. Callandor's presented some pretty good arguments involved here...but so has Ozy and a couple of others.

Personally, my biggest beef with Verin taking the borderlander option is - it has always seemed to me that the Borderlanders would be at the last battle, no matter what...following the dragon.

Borderlanders, of all peoples in Randland, know the importance of setting aside politics for the battle with the DO's minions...of following the plan, and the Leader... and they KNOW The Dragon Reborn is THE leader.

So why would Verin need to go to them? Not a one of them will deny Rand their armies come the Last Battle.

The problem I have with above train of thought is - there doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation for why the borderlander rulers left the blight. To find TDR ? Is that worth such a huge risk ? (Original soldiers defending the blight, minus 200,000 of them...that's a drastic loss of numbers defending their homelands).

The only explanation for that oddity that I can think of, is they have learnt of ‘travelling’, and realise that Rand ‘could’ bypass the borderlands on the way to Shayol Ghoul, and they are seeking him out because they don’t want to miss out…the problem with that thought is, I’m not sure any of their AS would know how to travel…so all that would be left is rumour…and do you take such a risk based on rumour?

The tower ‘seems’ a viable alternative…but what true influence does Verin have there…she is neither a sitter (that I know of), nor truly strong in the power (so her standing wouldn’t be right at the very top).

Has anyone considered that she may be going to Egwene’s camp…because AS have to fight beside TDR at the last battle. I’m sure Verin knows that Elaida’s way (have Rand trussed up until TLB) would doom the world…so she may be heading there…but same problem is suffered as if she went to the White Tower.

See why I’m sitting on the fence ?

Aeolus: 2006-04-07

Callandor's theory makes logical sense. However, there is one quote from earlier in the series that makes me wonder whether (and hope that!) she is up to something more interesting than politics with the Borderlanders:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

"There are Dragonsworn in Murandy, Mat. In Altara, too. Men sworn to me. Once Illian is mine, Altara and Murandy will drop like ripe plums. I'll make contact with the Dragonsworn in Tarabon and in Arad Doman and if the Whitecloaks try to keep me out of Amadicia, I'll crush them. The Prophet has Ghealdan primed, and Amadicia almost, so I hear. Can you imagine Masema as the Prophet? Saldaea will come to me; Bashere is sure of it. All the Borderlands will come. They have to! I am going to do it, Mat. Every land united before the Last Battle. I'm going to do it!" Rand's voice had taken on a feverish tone.

**How she intends to get the Borderlanders to listen/come over to Rand, I don't really know nor really does it matter.**

I don't think Verin is needed to convince the Borderlanders to support Rand. Rand has neglected the Borderlanders because he clearly feels they are his lowest priority - Bashere has all but guaranteed that Saldea will come, he is already known and worshipped in Shienar and, as Call says, Hurin and Lan will both augmented the support for the Dragon Reborn. So Rand is probably right - the Borderlanders will come. Which does make me feel that, despite it being a logical choice for Verin, there may be other areas that she could be more useful to Rand. Now, knowing Jordan, the actual destination will be some crazy one that we haven't even guessed at.

Perhaps Verin in watching Rand so intently because he has just revealed the Aelfinn's message, sparking off a chain of thought in her impressive mind, and she is even now heading to find woman she thought had died - Moiraine. She could meet up with Mat and Thom...

Khazhul: 2006-04-07

Aeolus,

I agree that Rand assumes the Borderlanders will just follow him but maybe when Verin hears that ALL the borderland leaders are out of there countries, hundreds of miles south with a large host of men, she might not be as convinced as Rand is.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-07

Callandor, you haven't addressed all my points. You say that Verin is going because she knows Hurin, but that makes no sense. Any Aes Sedai in Rand's group could go. Knowing Hurin means nothing. She doesn't need to convince Hurin, she needs to convince Rand. And since its a generally accepted truth that Aes Sedai don't lie, all and Aes Sedai has to do is walk up, say, I support Rand and just came from his camp, and she'll be just as accepted as Verin would. You have not offered me one explanation that works for why Verin would go instead of someone else, and in addition to this, you haven't provided a decent reason why she should go at all, instead of somewhere else. You've offered the same comment every time about how she's bringing the Borderlanders to Rand with very little in the way of justification, factual justification, to my questions.

If you say I disagree with your theory on hunch alone, well, your theory is little more than a hunch as well. Plus, how is she gonna get 200k men down to Rand? She's not stupid. How will Rand feed them? Why would the Borderland rulers come even further from their homeland? I mean, they don't necessarily need to actually physically COME to him, but they've already as much as pledged their alleigance by their very presence south of the Borderlands, so anything more is redundant on Verin's part...

Sir Milo: 2006-04-07

I agree with Callandor that the borderlanders' camp is the most likely place Verin went. I think the alliance with Rand may not be the most important point though. They will obviously support Rand, though it will be important to get that sealed.

The thing that is more important is this: The borderlanders need to be in the borderlands.

I propose that Verin's primary objective is to get these folks back to their posts before Trollocs come pouring out of the Blight unnoticed. Alliance with Rand or no, if half the borderland strength is not guarding the blight border then the soft belly of the rest of the mainland is exposed.

Also, I seem to remember vaguely some references here and there about it being dangerous for that large a number to leave the borderlands. . .

Callandor: 2006-04-07

**But the only problem i have with the theory is this: you are assuming that Verin got new info and left imediatly. This doesnt have to be true. it could be that she had been prepairing and planning to leave before then and left on scheduel.**

Then why does she say that she thinks she's done all that she can with Rand in the last chapter we see her in? How much does she have to prepare? She just needs herself, really for anything. Her Warder is even a secondary need; objects like clothes and such are even more so and just for convience. There is no reason to wait on things. What could Verin be preparing in any degree just by sitting around by Rand?

**I still think the Borderlands likely, but i dont think it necessary that she left immediatly upon hearing info about it.**

Well, we're shown that part. The chapter Rand hears about the Borderlanders, is the exact same chapter that Verin up and leaves. The last we hear from her is in the next chapter from her letter to Rand saying she's gone. That's not an assumption here; that's just what we've been shown.

**She might have gone on vacation. The last battle's coming, & this might be her last chance to have margaritas at a beach in Illian.**

But Rand's the Dragon Reborn -- he'd clearly have the best liqours ;)

**Verin doesn't care about the north, she cares about the Tower, like all Aes Sedai.**

Verin cares about Rand. We've already seen Verin break several customs against the Tower in any case to serve Rand.

**I don't think she can prioritize anything over the Tower and by extension, the Horn.**

1. It's a Foretold event that needs to be complete for the Last Battle to be won.

2. It's one of Rand's goals, even if he seems to be missing it in his thought processes.

It's easy to prioritize.

**So why would Verin need to go to them? Not a one of them will deny Rand their armies come the Last Battle.**

And everyone seems to be thinking that I am saying this. I am not.

Verin sees the importance of the Borderlanders, because they're prophecized to be key to winning the Last Battle. Rand seems to be skipping this part entirely, and only focusing on the south and Seanchan. Verin is going to let him, and bring the rulers to Rand/get them to agree and follow Rand and let them go about doing so.

**The only explanation for that oddity that I can think of, is they have learnt of ‘travelling’, and realise that Rand ‘could’ bypass the borderlands on the way to Shayol Ghoul, and they are seeking him out because they don’t want to miss out…the problem with that thought is, I’m not sure any of their AS would know how to travel…so all that would be left is rumour…and do you take such a risk based on rumour?**

Or they're just worried that Rand's been spending so much time in the south and other nations that he just doesn't care about the Borderlands -- like I pointed out, even Lan is saying this about Rand, if in nicer tones.

**The tower ‘seems’ a viable alternative…but what true influence does Verin have there…she is neither a sitter (that I know of), nor truly strong in the power (so her standing wouldn’t be right at the very top).**

Verin isn't a Sitter in either camp, and she's above average in strength. Some would be below her strength, but there are others higher.

**I don't think Verin is needed to convince the Borderlanders to support Rand.**

I don't think she really has to either (though there seems to be something off with them anyway). But it's not that she has to convince them; it's that she seems them as needed and will go to them. She knows where they are, she knows they're looking for Rand, she knows they're essential to winning the Last Battle, and she knows that Rand isn't doing anything as of now to gather them. Toss in a way of having lots of influence (being Aes Sedai, knowing Rand personally/being an envoy (she technically would), and Hurin), and it's still further reasoning.

**Perhaps Verin in watching Rand so intently because he has just revealed the Aelfinn's message, sparking off a chain of thought in her impressive mind, and she is even now heading to find woman she thought had died - Moiraine. She could meet up with Mat and Thom...**

As I said, try not to think of Verin as omnipotent, and this is much easier. Verin has no reason to take what people say about Moiraine (if she even knows more than rumors) as anything other than she died. Let alone that Moiraine is far away off in the Tower of Ghenjei awaiting rescue. Even Rand and Min are assuming Moiraine is dead; two people who really should know far better.

Callandor: 2006-04-08

**Callandor, you haven't addressed all my points. You say that Verin is going because she knows Hurin, but that makes no sense. Any Aes Sedai in Rand's group could go. Knowing Hurin means nothing. She doesn't need to convince Hurin, she needs to convince Rand.**

1. Hurin has given his word to help the ones he swore to help in The Dragon Reborn. Verin was apart of that group and I specifically quoted it.

2. Hurin is oathsworn to Lord Agelmar, and works for the King of Shienar's justice.

3. Hurin knows Verin from being at Falme, of course, and he's clearly the one whom the Borderlanders are getting much of their information that made them come south.

4. I did not say she's going because she knows Hurin; that's an added reason. If Hurin wasn't there at all, and it could even be that Verin isn't expecting him to be there (I'm putting him as a way of making this quite easy), Verin would still go because of the importance of the Borderlanders to Rand's plans.

**And since its a generally accepted truth that Aes Sedai don't lie, all and Aes Sedai has to do is walk up, say, I support Rand and just came from his camp, and she'll be just as accepted as Verin would. You have not offered me one explanation that works for why Verin would go instead of someone else, and in addition to this, you haven't provided a decent reason why she should go at all, instead of somewhere else.**

1. The reason she clearly left is because we saw her leave. That's obvious.

2. Why does there need to be a specific reason why it has to be Verin? Who cares who goes? Say it was only Verin that thought that Rand was completely skipping the Borderlanders -- I seriously do not care. You're looking for hard core specifics on how this will play out exactly when I'm just stating where Verin went.

**You've offered the same comment every time about how she's bringing the Borderlanders to Rand with very little in the way of justification, factual justification, to my questions.**

Ozy, I don't know how much else "factual" verification you need, unless you want a full blown POV of Verin saying "I'm going to the Borderlanders" which of course there isn't any of.

I've answered all your questions and more so don't try to make it out to be that I'm ignoring them.

**If you say I disagree with your theory on hunch alone, well, your theory is little more than a hunch as well.**

Right....

You know, completely cut out those nice big quotes I gave, the process of elimination I gave, and the complete logical sense of it. Right, only a little bit more than a hunch. Look, you're objecting to this because it doesn't sit well with you; I'm stating it off the evidence that we're given. There's a vast difference between the two.

**Plus, how is she gonna get 200k men down to Rand? She's not stupid.**

Or -- she could just take the rulers to Rand.

**Why would the Borderland rulers come even further from their homeland?**

Well it's not like they're so horribly against going one more mile when it will get them exactly what they want: to see Rand. They were willing to come this far to find Rand. You're objecting by saying they wouldn't want to get that objective done because it's a further distance??

** I mean, they don't necessarily need to actually physically COME to him, but they've already as much as pledged their alleigance by their very presence south of the Borderlands, so anything more is redundant on Verin's part...**

You're completely right and I agree. Know what the problem is? I simply am stating that Verin went to the Borderlanders. That is the point of this theory. How she does it, who she brings back, if she brings anyone back, etc. are all auxilliary details that hindge on one key point: Vering actually going to the Borderlanders. And that's the point I'm arguing, not the auxillary ones as you seem to be thinking. I've merely suggested possible ways of the auxillary situations being completed with ease.

Legend: 2006-04-08

I also agree w/ the borderland theory, to the extent that I believe that is where she is headed...but not so much to gather the rulers together, or to find Hurin (I think Nyneve likely contacted Hurin, as one of the "other" things she had to do after enlisting Lan's cousin to "pony up")...but rather, her intent may be to gather those Aes Sadei w/the borderlanders and head to Tarwins Gap. Whats missing in Callandors sequence of events b4 Verin's note, is the Trolloc attack that precedes it. As we know, Verin is as learned about trollocs as any alive, save the forsaken. And also has a penchant of being close when trollocs attack in force. 3 times as I recall. Plus, her knowledge of History (Aes Sadei failed Malkeiri in the past, they came too late [moraine xplns to Lan in New Spring])

Verin will ensure this doesn't happen again, and thereby help Rand by playing a role in stopping or slowing down whatever trolloc hordes are amassing in the blight.

Admittedly, the enigma that is Verin, has plagued me throughout this series, so I can't altogether rule out "black" possibilities...maybe she's going to undergo her transformation to a dreadlord and lead the trolloc hordes

blytzd: 2006-04-09

Could she perhaps be heading to ask the Finns some questions of her own? I don't see how a brown could pass that up... and no one else mentioned it yet.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-09

Callandor, I don't disagree with most of your theory, I think the quotes and such are well reasoned and support your hypothesis. But in the end, you have to admit, it is just a guess on your part. I wasn't insulting the quality of your theory; just pointing out that your making an educated guess as to where she went. My point is that the logic of that move is questionable, and that there is nearly as much hard evidence as to the fact that she went anywhere else.

I mean, despite your protestations about your quotations providing evidence, they really don't. You're making the big leap of faith that because Verin heard about this in this chapter, she therefore just upped and went.

I'm not saying your wrong, just that there are other possibilities, just as likely as this one. It would be important for her to bind the rebels to Rand, for example.

The point is is that whatever she is doing must be very important, or else she would not risk leaving Rand. I don't think acting as messenger girl for the Borderlanders qualifies. Anyone can do that.

Restorer: 2006-04-09

This is my first post, and I don’t have any books for quotes -- désoles. Also, I tried to write this out in correct paragraph form, but I think that it makes more sense this way:

Moiraine says that the Horn must go to Illian to be presented to the Council of Nine

The OT is sometimes awkward to translate

Tuon is the Daughter of Nine Moons

Tuon is married to Mat

Mat is the Hornsounder

The Horn must go to Mat

Please feel free to rip this apart:)

Callandor: 2006-04-09

**Whats missing in Callandors sequence of events b4 Verin's note, is the Trolloc attack that precedes it.**

We can't know if Verin had already left before the Trolloc attack took place. It's very probable that she did, and doesn't know it occured.

But in any case, it would still be after whatever caused her to up and leave in the last chapter we see her in. Something caused her to go and carry out this mission for Rand, but the Trollocs attacked afterwards.

Callandor: 2006-04-09

**Callandor, I don't disagree with most of your theory, I think the quotes and such are well reasoned and support your hypothesis. But in the end, you have to admit, it is just a guess on your part.**

I don't see how it could be a "guess" when the others have been removed from possibility, and there's quotes to prove it.

**I wasn't insulting the quality of your theory; just pointing out that your making an educated guess as to where she went.**

So, now it's an educated guess....

**My point is that the logic of that move is questionable, and that there is nearly as much hard evidence as to the fact that she went anywhere else.**

Please provide it, since I don't think I've seen it.

**I mean, despite your protestations about your quotations providing evidence, they really don't. You're making the big leap of faith that because Verin heard about this in this chapter, she therefore just upped and went.**

Uh huh.... So, we see Logain report to Rand, on the Borderlanders and other topics, and then at the end of the chapter we see Verin up and leave. Yet, you say, that one of those didn't cause her to leave?

**I'm not saying your wrong, just that there are other possibilities, just as likely as this one.**

There are other possiblities that do not fit nearly as complete.

**It would be important for her to bind the rebels to Rand, for example.**

Since you were so fond of the question, allow me to ask you it: Why does it have to be Verin that does it? Rand has an even better connection to the rebels than Verin: Egwene. Yes, she's changed, but Rand knows that no matter what if Egwene is made the true Amyrlin she's going to openly support him at least, even if she might be a bit pissed at other events (ones she doesn't fully understand).

**The point is is that whatever she is doing must be very important, or else she would not risk leaving Rand. I don't think acting as messenger girl for the Borderlanders qualifies. Anyone can do that.**

Ah, so you do agree that it's very important to Rand at least? It's just that for some reason it doesn't suit Verin? And one would think that Verin would fit into the subset of "anyone," even without the other reasons in her favor that I have listed before.

Balinor: 2006-04-10

Very nice theory. Well put together. I agree with Callandor, but mainly because of "why" Verin might want to go to the Borderlanders: because Rand needs more people he can trust to carry out his orders.

Everyone seems to take it as given that the Borderland rulers will support Rand unconditionally. Verin may see this as an opportunity to bring these rulers to Rand, let them all swear fealty to him, then he can start issuing them orders, and they can take most of their men back to the Borderlands, or wherever Rand feels he will need them the most. Plus, Agelmar Jagad is with the rulers, and he's one of the Great Captains, and it never hurts to have one of those guys with you to give you pointers on strategy.

Right now, it seems that Rand's biggest problem is a lack of hands (no pun intended) to carry out his plans. But if you give him access to the rulers of 4 nations, and 200,000 more troops, perhaps he can get more things done sooner.

Verin is definitely smart enough to think of this, so it stands to reason that this is where she went.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-10

You really haven't produced any factual evidence for this theory. You have one point which you claim shows Verin went to the Borderlanders and not anywhere else. Its not a quote, nor a thought by one of the characters; its the fact that the Borderlanders were mentioned in the same chapter. The quotes you give in your original theory are vague enough that they could cover anything even marginally useful to Rand (no fault of yours, that all there is). You have made a leap of faith in assuming that just because we hear about it for the first time with Verin present, thats where she goes. All I ask is for you to present to me one piece of hard evidence thats supports this that doesn't rely on connecting data that could just as easily be connected any other way with the information given.

I'm not saying your wrong. All I'm saying is that given what we know for sure about the situation, and the factual evidence we have, it is JUST as likely she went several other places as the Borderland camp. You want me to infer like you do? I will.

We know that Verin mentions the whole "the dead are walking thing" for a second time this scene, and Cadsuane slaps her down for doing so. Verin obviously believes this is incredibly important, since she is most assuredly a woman of few words and would not unduly repeat herself. This is a subtle hint that Verin considers this to be an incredibly important development in Randland, and is fixed on going an discovering the cause/solution to this burgeoning problem.

I realize that is far-fetched and outrageous. I don't believe in it at all, myself. But the point is is that its based on just as much factual evidence as your theory, Callandor. I'm not here to say you're wrong, only that you're not necessarily right.

Paddy: 2006-04-10

I prefer the idea shes gone for the Horn. She must know (being a brown) the signs Tarmon Gaidon is close, and that Rand is going to need the Horn very soon.

Flinn Sedai: 2006-04-11

First off, I would like to commend Callandor as this is a very well presented theory. It has every option considered and weighed according to information stated in the book.

That being said, I am going to slightly disagree with Callandor's conclusion. The fact that Logain mentions the Borderlands is indeed key to Verin's destination and I agree that it was something that occured during that chapter that made her leave. However, I believe the reason she left is because Rand has underestimated how large of an influence the White Tower would have if it were united, especially if it were united under Egwene. My personal belief is that Verin went to the White Tower to undermine Elaida and to reclaim the Horn of Valere.

The key lies in the Rand's focus. He is at least hearing things concerning the movements of the Borderlanders. None of his reports concern the dealings in the White Tower, and I agree that divided, it doesn't wield as much power as it would united. Which is why her goal would be to unite the split Tower. That being said, the question arises, "What good would she do?" Well, she has a very high standing as far as the Power is concerned, has a reputation for knowledge and is one of the oldest living Aes Sedai. All of those give her a distinct influence in the workings of the Tower. The Sitters currently are getting pretty fed up of Elaida and only need certain manipulations to topple her. Verin, though a Brown, has proven herself adept at manipulating others into actions that they might not otherwise condone. After that situation has been dealt with, she might very well go deal with the Borderlanders.

As well, the Borderlanders are clearly not going to just fall in line. They have stated quite unambiguously that regardless of his being the Dragon Reborn, the things he is doing are unconscionable. They are coming to hold him accountable, so they aren't just going to fall in line like lapdogs. They are going to insist that he be punished, though I don't know how they will react to his new physical condition.

Another impediment are the sisters who are with the Borderlanders. As they are emissaries from Elaida, for the most part, they may very well attempt to forestall any actions by Verin.

Most especially though, Verin would want to avoid having Rand meet directly with the lords of the Borderlands for a few reasons. First of all, Tenobia is extremely angry at Bashere and probably blames Rand to a degree. She will be a fair amount abraisive. As well, the Borderlanders pride themselves on their pride, so to speak. They are strong willed and proud. With the manner that Rand has been acting, I think that they would probably strike sparks. So, she would probably attempt to ease their concerns as well as getting them back to the Borderlands to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon.

sogoloth: 2006-04-11

Flinn,

I wonder though if Verin even wants to get involved in the WT's current situation. She is one of the "abstainers" in that she hasn't really chosen a side - rebel or otherwise. She simply follows Rand, or more accurately she always does what she believes is necesarry for Rand to succeed.

True, getting the Horn is a huge help to Rand. But then, so is assisting with the Borderlanders. I do see what you're saying, with her being good at manipulation and her high AS standing and all, but it seems like she would have to know she was walking into a mess that would entangle her in the WT's struggles and politics - something she has thus far gone to lengths to avoid. Also, while she does know that the Horn is in the Tower, how could she expect to get clear of all the BS going on there long enough to spirit it away to Rand, especially if she becomes involved in trying to help resolve the WT's conflict. And as you said, she is an AS of high regard and standing. There is no way she could hope to remain neutral, no way she could avoid getting caught up in the conflict. Other AS would EXPECT certain things from her, just because of who she is.

No, I think Verin will stay as far from the WT as she can until the WT is whole again.

As for the Borderlanders, they are upset with Rand it's true. Mainly because the info they're getting is from WT AS, who are themselves misinformed to a great degree concerning Rand. I believe that she could do Rand more good with the Borderlanders by setting the record straight concerning Rand, so that by the time they finally meet him they'll be more open to his plans and such.

Just my 2 cents, I may be wrong.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-11

Flinn... I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm curious about a few points you made. Firstly... how can the Borderlanders punish Rand? He is far more powerful than them, and they know it. Its more likely that in the end they WILL fall into line like faithful hounds, for a few reasons.

1.) He is Ta'veren, and molds events to serve himself.

2.) The Borderlands have a much more acute sense of their own destiny in terms of Tarmon Gaidon than any others except the Aiel. So they will accept that infighting is a mistake and fall in line.

3.) Bashere. Regardless of how angry Tenobia is, she values his advice, and the other kings and queens certainly do as well. They will accept his opinion.

4.) They will be eager to get back to the Blight, instead of stranding themselves far from their military and administrative centers.

I still think Verin is doing research. Whatever

Callandor: 2006-04-11

**You really haven't produced any factual evidence for this theory. You have one point which you claim shows Verin went to the Borderlanders and not anywhere else. Its not a quote, nor a thought by one of the characters; its the fact that the Borderlanders were mentioned in the same chapter.**

The same chapter in which she immediately leaves, as well learns of vital importance of the Borderlanders for the unification of Randland.

**You have made a leap of faith in assuming that just because we hear about it for the first time with Verin present, thats where she goes. All I ask is for you to present to me one piece of hard evidence thats supports this that doesn't rely on connecting data that could just as easily be connected any other way with the information given.**

And I've done that.

1. Verin learns of the Borderlanders still being where they are.

2. Verin learns that the Borderlanders are seeking Rand.

(These two could've been known before to Verin, but it doesn't matter since they're made to perfect knowledge in this chapter).

3. Verin learns of a prophecized importance of the Borderlanders for the unification of Randland.

(You can even say that Verin already knew this as well, since it's part of the Karaethon Cycle as well!

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 34 - Ta'veren

Rand thought Shaene's handkerchief might yet rub away what thin gray fringe of hair he had left. The longboat swept away from the dock on its long oars, the two banners rippling in the bows, and the drums pounding, and the trumpets blaring. Out in the river, people appeared on the decks of ships to watch, even climbed into the rigging. On the Sea Folk ship they came out, too, many in bright colors unlike the drab clothing on crews of the other vessels. The White Spray was a larger craft than most of the rest, yet somehow sleeker as well, with two tall masts raked back sharply and spars laid across them squarely where nearly all the other ships had slanting spars longer than the masts to hold most of their sails. Everything about it spoke of difference, but in one thing, Rand knew, the Atha'an Miere had to be like everyone else. They could either agree to follow him on their own or be forced to it; the Prophecies said he would bind together the people of every land--"The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south," it said--and no one could be allowed to stand aside. He knew that, now.**)

4. Verin knows that Rand is spending his time with the Seanchan and seems to be completely disregarding the Borderlanders.

5. Verin gives two considering looks after each key piece of information is given.

Much of this can all be proven before this chapter, as I showed, but it still doesn't matter since it's all confirmed again in this chapter, which is the one in which we see Verin leave.

And if you seriously want "hard evidence" that doesn't rely on connections then you can sit and wait for a Verin POV from book 12 or dream of the parallel world where Jordan released Knife of Dreams having Verin say right before she leaves "I'm off to secure the Borderlanders."

Finally, a leap of faith is nothing but pure gut feeling. I make a leap of faith to say that Mesaana is the one that killed Sahra Covenry, and even that isn't a true and perfect example because it's based off evidence of the goings on in the Tower at the time, who knew of her importance, the result of that later, and the benefit it gave.

A true leap of faith? I say Juilin Sandar is circumsized. Do I have any evidence at all for it? Not a tick. Could I be wrong? Completely.

Here's the proof positive test for a leap of faith: they hold exactly equal sway with their exact opposite position. They do this because they have no evidence for them.

**We know that Verin mentions the whole "the dead are walking thing" for a second time this scene, and Cadsuane slaps her down for doing so. Verin obviously believes this is incredibly important, since she is most assuredly a woman of few words and would not unduly repeat herself. This is a subtle hint that Verin considers this to be an incredibly important development in Randland, and is fixed on going an discovering the cause/solution to this burgeoning problem.**

1. The cause is obvious to anyone in the world who's seen a ghost, and to us: the Dark One is causing it.

2. As you said, Verin is one of always saying what's important and pretending to be absentminded about it. If this is so vitally important to her, that she go seek out this cause and try to stop it, why is she mentioning it a second time? Why hasn't she left already?

3. Of course the dead appearing are important. It is nice to know the Last Battle is going to come soon. It's like knowing you're going to die (literally for poor Rand); it get's your priorities in line extremely fast. Amazingly, Verin's priorities after learning this shocking evidence were to stick with Rand for a longer time.

4. What is Verin going to do about this? She going to actually think she can stop the dead from appearing? Aes Sedai don't have that much arrogance (and we're shown that several times with their lack of even trying to do anything about the ghosts).

5. I'll ask the question you so love again: Why does it have to be Verin? Cadsuane is the legend, why not enlist her? Why not break character, to hell with subterfuge and dignity, and beg that Rand spend all his resources on figuring out and stopping ghosts from appearing?

**I realize that is far-fetched and outrageous. I don't believe in it at all, myself. But the point is is that its based on just as much factual evidence as your theory, Callandor.**

No, and don't even try to bring such lank comparisons. I have quotes for every piece of evidence, valid and logical motives, narrative sense, character sense, and likely means of completion of objective all outlined. What do you toss and dare say it compares? Verin see's the dead appearing is important, and wants to seek it out.

And if you want futher evidence you can add in circumstantial evidence that I can give a valid reason for every single motive and thought process for Verin for going, as well as contrary ones for every other eventuality that you've brought up. But I doubt that flies very well with you, since you've been denying the amount of material I gave in my small original.

**I'm not here to say you're wrong, only that you're not necessarily right.**

Again, you are saying I'm wrong. Say it simply, get it over with, and take a stand with it. Thank you for factoring in my feelings, however.

**I prefer the idea shes gone for the Horn. She must know (being a brown) the signs Tarmon Gaidon is close, and that Rand is going to need the Horn very soon.**

Yes, Verin knows the signs are showing and comments that the Last Battle is approaching. That's the main problem with assuming she went for the Horn. Verin knew days, if not weeks, before that the signs were appearing, yet she didn't leave until Logain's report came.

Added to this, also what I said before, Rand truly doesn't need the Horn of Valere; Mat does. Only Mat can sound it (or even if by some occurance Mat was unbound from the Horn due to his "death", the world that knows the Horn has been found, let alone who sounded, still believes only Mat can sound it), so it's nothing more than an ordinary horn to Rand. Sure, it makes the transition to usefulness much easier when Mat finally joins up with Rand, but that is not now, no word of this has reached Rand, and Verin has no true reason to assume it will occur anytime soon. There are better and more likely options for Verin to persue.

**However, I believe the reason she left is because Rand has underestimated how large of an influence the White Tower would have if it were united, especially if it were united under Egwene. My personal belief is that Verin went to the White Tower to undermine Elaida and to reclaim the Horn of Valere.**

1. What was the new information she got that made her up and decide to leave at this time compared to any other time before?

2. As well, Verin has known about the Horn for 8 books now. She hasn't made a move for it yet. Why now all of a sudden when the information about Last Battle approaching, and the importance of this event makes for the Horn to be in use (for Mat, not Rand), is days old and Verin is still sitting put?

3. What more could Verin do that others could not do? She's one Aes Sedai when there are 300 already doing that action. There have been 300 there for a long time doing that action.

**The key lies in the Rand's focus. He is at least hearing things concerning the movements of the Borderlanders.**

But he's not focused on them; he wants nothing to do with them even. (He truly does since he wants to unite Randland, but his first thought about Logain reporting this is "I'm glad I didn't go stumble into those Aes Sedai.")

**Well, she has a very high standing as far as the Power is concerned, has a reputation for knowledge and is one of the oldest living Aes Sedai. All of those give her a distinct influence in the workings of the Tower.**

1. Verin is roughly above average in Power standings:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 43 - The Crown of Roses

The difficulty was that Verin and Alanna were not part of Merana's delegation; she had no authority over them. They had heard the news of Logain and the Reds and agreed that Elaida could not be allowed to remain in the Amyrlin Seat, yet that meant nothing. Of course, Alanna was not really a problem, only potentially. She and Merana were so close in strength that the only way to say which had the greater would be an actual contest, the sort of thing novices did until they were caught. Alanna had been six years a novice, Merana only five, but more importantly, Merana had been Aes Sedai ten years the day the midwife laid Alanna at her mother's breast. That took care of that. Merana had precedence. No one actually thought in those terms unless something made them, but they both knew and adjusted automatically. Not that Alanna would take orders, yet instinctive deference would surely keep her in hand to some degree. That, and knowing what she had done.

Verin was the problem, the one who had Merana thinking of strengths and precedence. Merana let herself sense the other woman's strength in the Power again, though of course she knew what she would find. No way to tell which of them was stronger. Five years as novice for each, six as Accepted; that was one thing every Aes Sedai knew about every other if she knew nothing else. The difference was that Verin was older, maybe almost as much older than she as she was older than Alanna. The touch of gray in Verin's hair emphasized it. Had Verin been part of the embassy, there would have been no difficulty at all, but she was not, and Merana found herself listening attentively, deferring without thinking. Twice in the morning she had had to remind herself that Verin was not in charge. The only thing that made the situation tolerable was that Verin must feel she shared some of Alanna's guilt. Without that she surely would have been in a chair as soon as anyone else, not standing beside Alanna. If only there were some way to make her remain at Culain's Hound day and night to watch over that wonderful treasure of girls from the Two Rivers.**

Verin = Merana = Alanna. That alone is in one relatively small cluster of Aes Sedai. To draw comparisons:

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving

The Atha'an Miere clustered with Renaile again, most, like her, glaring hungrily at the Aes Sedai and the Bowl. The last three women stood at the rear, the apprentices with the air of those uncertain whether they had a right to be there at all, Rainyn folding her arms in imitation of Renaile, yet doing little better than the other two. The Windfinder on a darter, the least of the Sea Folk vessels, likely seldom found herself in company with the Windfinder to her clan Wavemistress, not to mention the Windfinder to the Mistress of the Ships. Rainyn was easily as strong as Lelaine or Romanda, and Metarra on a level with Elayne herself, while Talaan. . . . Talaan, so meek in her red linen blouse, with eyes that seemed permanently downcast, came very close to Nynaeve. Very close. More, Elayne knew she herself had not yet reached her full potential, and neither had Nynaeve. How close were Metarra and Talaan? She had grown accustomed to knowing that only Nynaeve and the Forsaken were stronger than she. Well, Egwene, but she had been forced, and her own potential, and Aviendha's, matched Egwene's. So much for complacency, she told herself ruefully. Lini would have said it was what she deserved for taking things for granted.**

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 23 - Next Door to a Weaver

For Nynaeve's part, she gave Elayne a triumphant look. Both newcomers could channel, and saidar was still being wielded somewhere in the house. Two more, and while Berowin was not very strong, Garenia stood even above Reanne; she could match Lelaine or Romanda. Not that that mattered, of course, yet this made at least five. Elayne's chin set stubbornly, but then she sighed and gave a small nod. Sometimes it took the most incredible effort to convince her of anything.**

Added to this, I'd suggest taking a glance at the Wotmania FAQ to see the comparisons for age:

http://www.wotmania.net/faqtopic.asp?ID=85

At most Verin's age would be a help, but there are plenty that have equal, better, or far better standing.

**After that situation has been dealt with, she might very well go deal with the Borderlanders.**

No gurantee they'll be there with the same opprotunity. Tower will be there for some time still (but as I said, there are plenty of others to take care of that situation).

**As well, the Borderlanders are clearly not going to just fall in line. They have stated quite unambiguously that regardless of his being the Dragon Reborn, the things he is doing are unconscionable. They are coming to hold him accountable, so they aren't just going to fall in line like lapdogs.**

Whether they will or not, their importance isn't lowered in the slightest. Verin just knows where they are, their importance, and that they're seeking Rand. Those alone make this easily possible.

**Another impediment are the sisters who are with the Borderlanders. As they are emissaries from Elaida, for the most part, they may very well attempt to forestall any actions by Verin.**

The Aes Sedai might provide a problem, but Verin has what they don't: she can represent Rand and has Hurin.

Also, they're not emissaries from Elaida (as far as we can guess), or at least all of them, since the ones that came with Tenobia specifically told her to evade the Aes Sedai Elaida sent to pressure Tenobia. As near as we can tell, all the Aes Sedai are side-liners.

**First of all, Tenobia is extremely angry at Bashere and probably blames Rand to a degree.**

Verin doesn't know that, however. Even Bashere is just saying that Tenobia is more than likely mad at her.

As well, what does it matter? Is Tenobia going to kill Rand for taking Bashere for a time? No, the Borderlanders may be pissed at Rand, but they know he's the Dragon Reborn and their only hope. Not to mention, ta'vereness worked before, it can again.

** As well, the Borderlanders pride themselves on their pride, so to speak. They are strong willed and proud. With the manner that Rand has been acting, I think that they would probably strike sparks.**

Again, Rand is ta'veren. Logain and Rand strike sparks really; they still work together. Taim and Rand hate each other but Rand still used him. Hell, Rand has worked with Forsaken on more than one instance. We know by now that Rand's philosophy toward the world is: use every tool you have. Whether it's rotten like Taim, or annoying like Logain is now, Rand will use them.

**So, she would probably attempt to ease their concerns as well as getting them back to the Borderlands to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon.**

Which would still make this theory correct. As I've said, the point is that Verin is going to the Borderlanders. What she does there, whether she's successful (we know someone will be eventually), or how she does it are not dependant on this. Just that she went there. Possible means are given to make this easy to accomplish, but they're not necessary.

Flinn Sedai: 2006-04-12

Callandor --

** 1. What was the new information she got that made her up and decide to leave at this time compared to any other time before? **

The point I was making was that Rand is at least hearing news of the Borderlanders. Even if he is making an effort to ignore them, he is still hearing news of them. He hears nothing of the workings in the White Tower. He gets no news of any portion of that.

Her goal there would not be to take sides, per se, but rather to unite the Tower. This would be helping Rand as well as providing her a chance to retrieve the Horn of Valere.

The new information that she provided was more accurately, a specific lack of information that Rand is provided.

** 2. As well, Verin has known about the Horn for 8 books now. She hasn't made a move for it yet. Why now all of a sudden when the information about Last Battle approaching, and the importance of this event makes for the Horn to be in use (for Mat, not Rand), is days old and Verin is still sitting put? **

The same could be said after 3 books, after 4 books, after 5, etc... The point is that this is her first chance to go to the White Tower. It is a matter of convenience. Her primary purpose there is not the Horn of Valere, but rather, the reunification of the White Tower.

** 3. What more could Verin do that others could not do? She's one Aes Sedai when there are 300 already doing that action. There have been 300 there for a long time doing that action. **

Which is where her high standing as an Aes Sedai comes in, as well as her exceptional skills at manipulation. More importantly, as you have said, she can come as an emmisary from Rand which will give her the ability to negotiate with them to help unify the Tower. There are any number of ways that she is uniquely able to help matters and I think you can agree that her reuniting the White Tower would be more helpful than bringing the Borderlanders to heel.

** 1. Verin is roughly above average in Power standings: **

My apologies, I was clearly mistaken.

**As well, what does it matter? Is Tenobia going to kill Rand for taking Bashere for a time? No, the Borderlanders may be pissed at Rand, but they know he's the Dragon Reborn and their only hope. Not to mention, ta'vereness worked before, it can again. **

No, she is not going to kill him, but she is going to full well expect recompense. Since when has Tenobia listened to reason? Bashere himself says that he was once banished for disagreeing with her. Just because he is their only hope, doesn't mean that he can't be held accountable for his actions. It would be very much like the Borderlanders to call him to task for what he has done.

Also, you can't just use Ta'varen as the cureall for everything. Saying that everybody is going to fall in line simply because they have seen Rand is a deus ex machina. That's saying, "It will work because that's how the storyline goes and for no other reason."

**Which would still make this theory correct. As I've said, the point is that Verin is going to the Borderlanders. What she does there, whether she's successful (we know someone will be eventually), or how she does it are not dependant on this. Just that she went there. Possible means are given to make this easy to accomplish, but they're not necessary.**

I think you misunderstood the point of my post. There are several things that I posted that would support your theory. My purpose was merely to provide another perspective on the events that took place.

Ozymandias --

**The Borderlands have a much more acute sense of their own destiny in terms of Tarmon Gaidon than any others except the Aiel. So they will accept that infighting is a mistake and fall in line. **

That's true. They also have a much more acute sense of duty and honor. They feel that it is their duty to call Rand to task for his actions as nobody else will.

**Bashere. Regardless of how angry Tenobia is, she values his advice, and the other kings and queens certainly do as well. They will accept his opinion. **

Tenobia banished him once for disagreeing with her. She is hot-headed, rash and impetuous. If Bashere did something to upset her much, she may well have his head. We have heard Bashere musing something to that effect before.

**Flinn... I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm curious about a few points you made. Firstly... how can the Borderlanders punish Rand? He is far more powerful than them, and they know it. Its more likely that in the end they WILL fall into line like faithful hounds, for a few reasons. **

They know that they are going to have a difficult time attempting to punish Rand, which is why they brought 200,000 soldiers. If they just wanted to make a treaty, they would have traveled with fewer. They also know that Rand has a very, for lack of a better term, Borderland-like sense of duty. There is little doubt that if they came and said, "Let us punish you or you will have to fight the Borderlands." Rand wouldn't hesitate to let himself be punished.

Sogoloth --

**I wonder though if Verin even wants to get involved in the WT's current situation. She is one of the "abstainers" in that she hasn't really chosen a side - rebel or otherwise. She simply follows Rand, or more accurately she always does what she believes is necesarry for Rand to succeed. **

Which is one reason that her voice will be given more weight.

**No, I think Verin will stay as far from the WT as she can until the WT is whole again. **

The most helpful thing that Verin can do is to reunite the White Tower, which is exactly why she would tangle herself in those politics.

**As for the Borderlanders, they are upset with Rand it's true. Mainly because the info they're getting is from WT AS, who are themselves misinformed to a great degree concerning Rand. I believe that she could do Rand more good with the Borderlanders by setting the record straight concerning Rand, so that by the time they finally meet him they'll be more open to his plans and such. **

They are upset with him because of the strife that his coming has brought the world. It is not misinformation. It is a clear understanding of the world that presents them with the notion that they must punish Rand.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-12

I concede. While I still have a gut feeling that she is not going to the Borderlanders, and remain unconvinced that your evidence shows that that is the place she is going above all others, I cannot find a reasonable alternative with any more foundation that you have, and as such, will at the very least cease argument.

Just as a parting shot... Verin hearing the Prophecy about binding north and east and south and west... she might doubt herself. I don't see that as evidence either. If she had known that was the case, she would have left earlier. All Aes Sedai with any knowledge of events must be questioning their interpretation of the Prophecies, since the one Aes Sedai most devoted to finding Rand, Moiraine, was wrong in most of her assumptions about the Prophecies, and had no clue about the meaning of the rest. Verin has known about this part of the prophecy, just as she has certainly known about the presence of the Borderlanders and their probable intent, through the use of eyes and ears, as well as proximity to Rand, for some time. There is no reason for her to connect it right now.

But other than that... you defended yourself well.

Callandor: 2006-04-15

**The point I was making was that Rand is at least hearing news of the Borderlanders. Even if he is making an effort to ignore them, he is still hearing news of them. He hears nothing of the workings in the White Tower. He gets no news of any portion of that.**

And? Rand's not doing anything for the Borderlanders, and he's been told that they're also important to his plans. White Tower backing doesn't even need to factor into this, however it probably will.

**Her goal there would not be to take sides, per se, but rather to unite the Tower. This would be helping Rand as well as providing her a chance to retrieve the Horn of Valere.**

Uniting the Tower is going to take sides (it will eventually be Egwene). And, Verin already has taken a side more or less, with the rebels.

But why would Verin need to do this? Tar Valon is under siege and has forces far greater than Verin at work to resolve it quickly. What is Verin going to add at all to it? As well, if Verin is going to return to undermine Elaida, she's going to do it right away, and we don't see her in Egwene's chapter even though the timelines overlap (only a day or so, but even still).

**The new information that she provided was more accurately, a specific lack of information that Rand is provided.**

So, Verin left because Rand didn't have enough information? How is this anything new? And where is Verin assuming that there's something new to be had that has to be reported that's missing?

**The point is that this is her first chance to go to the White Tower. It is a matter of convenience. Her primary purpose there is not the Horn of Valere, but rather, the reunification of the White Tower.**

1. First chance? Verin's had plenty of time to go to the Tower; why now? Why if it is so important?

2. If the re-unification is so important, why did Verin even go to Rand? Why has she even stayed with Rand? Why didn't she leave immediately for the Tower the first chance she was alone to do so?

**Which is where her high standing as an Aes Sedai comes in, as well as her exceptional skills at manipulation.**

I specifically pointed out that Verin doesn't have that high of standing, or at least there are several others with much higher standing than herself. Hell, Cadsuane would have far more standing than Verin ever would.

**More importantly, as you have said, she can come as an emmisary from Rand which will give her the ability to negotiate with them to help unify the Tower.**

The Tower knows of Rand's importance already. What's this going to bring at all? They all know Rand is out there and important -- that's part of the reason why they're focusing only on reuniting the Tower in the first place.

**There are any number of ways that she is uniquely able to help matters and I think you can agree that her reuniting the White Tower would be more helpful than bringing the Borderlanders to heel.**

No, since others will easily do it instead of Verin, and it just seems like a tossed reason. The Horn of Valere is a better option than Verin single handedly reuniting the Tower.

**No, she is not going to kill him, but she is going to full well expect recompense. Since when has Tenobia listened to reason? Bashere himself says that he was once banished for disagreeing with her. Just because he is their only hope, doesn't mean that he can't be held accountable for his actions. It would be very much like the Borderlanders to call him to task for what he has done.**

And what would that do, if anything? "Rand, you've been a very bad Dragon Reborn, but we can't do anything to enforce this since you're our only hope of surviving."

**Also, you can't just use Ta'varen as the cureall for everything. Saying that everybody is going to fall in line simply because they have seen Rand is a deus ex machina. That's saying, "It will work because that's how the storyline goes and for no other reason."**

Call it deus ex machina all you want, it's not refuting it. My point is that the Pattern/Wheel is demanding Randland be united for the Last Battle -- that includes Rand having control of the Borderlands. Obviously they're not going to be so pissed that this is no longer possible, so it will come about in some fashion, ta'veren or not (and I'd argue that them even leaving is ta'vereness already). So, I don't see this at all as an objection.

**I think you misunderstood the point of my post. There are several things that I posted that would support your theory. My purpose was merely to provide another perspective on the events that took place.**

You were commenting on possible events in that section; not ones that had already taken place.

**Tenobia banished him once for disagreeing with her. She is hot-headed, rash and impetuous. If Bashere did something to upset her much, she may well have his head. We have heard Bashere musing something to that effect before.**

Yet amazingly Tenobia came back to her senses. And it's not as if Bashere is completely unable to get around this. Rand needs Bashere, Bashere knows this, so it's not like he'll simply hand himself over to Tenobia because she wants to throw a temper-tantrum.

**Which is one reason that her voice will be given more weight.**

Like how much weight Merise's voice was given to the Salidar Aes Sedai? If it was Cadsuane doing this, you might be on to something, but for Verin, it's not saying much.

**The most helpful thing that Verin can do is to reunite the White Tower, which is exactly why she would tangle herself in those politics.**

Many others are already working on reuniting the Tower. Verin won't be adding too much to the effort this way.

**They are upset with him because of the strife that his coming has brought the world. It is not misinformation. It is a clear understanding of the world that presents them with the notion that they must punish Rand.**

The way the Borderlanders put it, it's because Rand is ignoring them, not because he's causing strife.

**I concede. While I still have a gut feeling that she is not going to the Borderlanders, and remain unconvinced that your evidence shows that that is the place she is going above all others, I cannot find a reasonable alternative with any more foundation that you have, and as such, will at the very least cease argument.**

Perfectly acceptable to just disagree, as long as you agree it's simply a feeling. It was my feeling for the longest time Rolan was going to be Berelain's man in white, and it was perfectly fine.

**Just as a parting shot... Verin hearing the Prophecy about binding north and east and south and west... she might doubt herself. I don't see that as evidence either. If she had known that was the case, she would have left earlier.**

Which is why I only put it as a possibility that she knew about it.

CyberFade: 2006-04-15

You concede too quickly Ozymandias ;)

Flynn may have touched on this, but there seems to be a misread many are making about Verin in the News for the Dragon chapter.

1. Verin was there for the battle, but it's weird that she pens a message (this is time consuming, they don't have ball points) to Rand. Rand gets the note hours after the battle, but the servant said he was told to deliver it straightaway, I don't think there's any reason to doubt him...though of course there's always the 10% chance he's DF ;)

2. Cadsuane says that Verin has been going on at length about Tarmon Gaidon for days straight. What changes in this scene is that Rand reveals his plans to the Aes Sedai, otherwise he was keeping them in the dark. It's possible that Verin has decided that now that she knows what Rand's immediate plans are (meet with DoNM, secure Arad Doman, get hand blown off) that she sees something else that it's important to do. I'd have to reread about what Logain tells them is actually news as well...

Personally I'd go with Verin going to find Mat and secure the Horn, but it's Verin...maybe there's a sale on Ebou Dari lace she has to hit?

Callandor: 2006-04-19

**Verin was there for the battle, but it's weird that she pens a message (this is time consuming, they don't have ball points) to Rand.**

We don't know. She certainly isn't mentioned at taking part in the battle, and definately left in a hurry. Whether she was there and knows of it is simply unknown at this time, and more than likely that she wasn't.

**It's possible that Verin has decided that now that she knows what Rand's immediate plans are (meet with DoNM, secure Arad Doman, get hand blown off) that she sees something else that it's important to do.**

Which is exactly what this theory is detailing. Rand has stated his plans; he stated the prophecies which are the basis for his reasoning; he's ignoring a key part of his plans -- the Borderlanders; Verin has left to rectify this.

**Personally I'd go with Verin going to find Mat and secure the Horn, but it's Verin**

Why? No information is given about Mat in the chapter (at least not to anyone but Rand), and she hasn't seen Mat since The Dragon Reborn.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-20

Callandor, the key point you're overlooking is that Verin doesn't necessarily have to have heard about her destination in this chapter. Why is this such gospel for you? Much more likely, given the sheer number of things she could do, is that something she heard convinced her it was time to act. Not on what she heard, but that was the stimulus. Lets face it, nothing she heard in that report was so incredibly urgent it required her to pack up so quickly. I mean, yes, Verin shows a definite liking of being mysterious at times, but still, she could have as easily told someone where she was going. She got up and out of there in a real hurry. I have no idea what precipitated it in Logain's report, but something convinced her to go quickly. I doubt it was the Borderlanders; they haven't moved in months, and show no sign of doing so any time soon.

And I did not give up too easily. Sometimes you have to pick and choose your fights, though with Callie it'll end up being an eternal fight. In my experience.

Callandor: 2006-04-21

**Callandor, the key point you're overlooking is that Verin doesn't necessarily have to have heard about her destination in this chapter. Why is this such gospel for you? Much more likely, given the sheer number of things she could do, is that something she heard convinced her it was time to act. Not on what she heard, but that was the stimulus.**

She doesn't have to hear about her destination in this chapter, technically, but it makes the most sense if she did.

And the stimulus is right -- hence why it's important that she hear about the importance of the Borderlanders for Rand's plans.

**Lets face it, nothing she heard in that report was so incredibly urgent it required her to pack up so quickly.**

I'd disagree quite strongly, since she left right after hearing it.

**She got up and out of there in a real hurry.**

Exactly the reason why something in the report and Rand's plans made her want to leave -- or are you getting in the habit of refuting your own arguments? Makes my job easier, but it does seem silly.

**I have no idea what precipitated it in Logain's report, but something convinced her to go quickly. I doubt it was the Borderlanders; they haven't moved in months, and show no sign of doing so any time soon.**

The Borderlanders moving isn't what made her leave, and I have never mentioned it as being a reason. All I said is that she knows they are remaining where they are.

**And I did not give up too easily. Sometimes you have to pick and choose your fights, though with Callie it'll end up being an eternal fight. In my experience.**

No, it won't be eternal. I'll be proven right in the next book. But I do remember you saying that you conceded.

Ozymandias: 2006-04-22

I conceded on the grounds that I was tired of repeating myself and watching you not take in a word of what I was saying, not on any basis of agreeing with your argument.

To me, the fact that Verin got up and left in a hurry is evidence AGAINST her going to the Borderlanders. Logain's report is just another bit of info about the same exact situation thats been happening for several months. Verin's presence near Rand assures that she KNOWS the Borderlanders are there; all Logain's report has told us is that they are still there doing nothing. Why rush, after hearing that nothing has changed? She knows she has nothing but time, since her transport there is instantaneous.

And since you agree with me on the point that she unequivocally KNOWS that they're staying put, please explain why she gets up and leaves in such a hurry? There is no logical explanation for it. None at all. I don't think thats where she went. Or, at the very least, Logain's report had nothing to do with it.

Callandor: 2006-04-23

**I conceded on the grounds that I was tired of repeating myself and watching you not take in a word of what I was saying, not on any basis of agreeing with your argument.**

Uh huh. I'll emphasize the key point and put in the part you forgot to restate:

**I conceded on the grounds that I was tired of repeating myself and watching you not take in a word of what I was saying, not on any basis of agreeing with your argument.**

What you forgot:

**I concede. While I still have a gut feeling that she is not going to the Borderlanders, and remain unconvinced that your evidence shows that that is the place she is going above all others, I cannot find a reasonable alternative with any more foundation that you have, and as such, will at the very least cease argument.**

You said it much better the first time. If you don't want to concede, don't say that you do. If you want to continue arguing your opinion in face of what I've already presented, don't say "I give up." then go back to continue arguing.

**To me, the fact that Verin got up and left in a hurry is evidence AGAINST her going to the Borderlanders.**

And I really don't see how you can say that.

**Verin's presence near Rand assures that she KNOWS the Borderlanders are there; all Logain's report has told us is that they are still there doing nothing. Why rush, after hearing that nothing has changed?**

Because it's two key parts that make up this theory, and you seem to still think that they're not linked completely. Verin also learned the details of Rand's plans for the Last battle, and the importance of the Borderlanders put into crystal clear words.

**And since you agree with me on the point that she unequivocally KNOWS that they're staying put, please explain why she gets up and leaves in such a hurry?**

Because it's important to the unification of Randland under Rand's control, a key part Rand is overlooking or taking for granted as already done (the latter I don't agree with), and, you know, things DO need to get done before the Last Battle.

**There is no logical explanation for it. None at all.**

No, there's perfectly logical reasons for it. You're disregarding them.

**I don't think thats where she went.**

Fair enough -- but you've already admitted before that this was nothing more than a feeling to you with no basis at all (aside from the fact of conceding the argument).

**Or, at the very least, Logain's report had nothing to do with it.**

If Verin went to the Borderlanders, she needs to know where they are. Logain's report gives her the information that they'r remaining still.

haertchen: 2006-04-23

Ozymandias:

I think you've missed *the* key point in the theory, and thus are attacking a straw man.

It wasn't Logain's report that changed her mind. That wasn't new. We know that.

What would have changed her mind would be *Rand's* report of what the Aelfinn (Eelfinn?) told him. That was new. It would, in this theory, provide her with a serious motive for getting the borderlanders in line.

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

CyberFade: 2006-04-25

Back to the original criteria:

4. It must come with new information or something she just found out. Verin was serving Rand’s needs perfectly fine where she was. Something new caused her to see that she could be doing a better service to Rand elsewhere.

This is your big assumption, and one you don't need to make for a Verin goes to the BL army scenario. I think you could make a more convincing argument without it, because then we don't need to read the tealeaves to pull something useful out of a Min and Rand make moony eyes at each other scene ;)

FijiFury: 2006-04-25

Very interesting reading the debate and the theory itself. I think that Callandor is right and that Verin went to the Borderlander Army. There is ample evidence to speculate on this as her destination. No, it's not 100% sure, but from all indicators it's pretty likely.

One thought I'd like to add because I haven't seen it yet (and apologize to anyone if they've already posted it). Verin hears about the Borderlander army AND THE 13 AES SEDAI hanging out with them. Knowing the manipulative bitch that Elaida is, and that Rand was kidnapped before, she'd be pretty hot to want those Aes Sedai neutralized as a threat. This in my mind advances the likelihood of the Borderlander Army as her destination. Yes, Rand has ignored them, and yes he needs them; on top of that there are these Aes Sedai hanging around in the background and nobody knows what their purpose is. That means they are a potential threat:

a) could be Black Ajah

b) could be Elaida's people

c) could be nervous nellies

However, SOMETHING more than "hey, where's our attention from the Dragon?" brought that army of Borderlanders south, and I wager Verin's going to find out. That's why we haven't seen her yet. She's not charging in to approach the Borderlander Rulers; she's going to find out who the hell those Aes Sedai are and what purpose they have in mind.

Those are my thoughts. Awesome theory Callandor.

Callandor: 2006-04-25

**This is your big assumption, and one you don't need to make for a Verin goes to the BL army scenario. I think you could make a more convincing argument without it, because then we don't need to read the tealeaves to pull something useful out of a Min and Rand make moony eyes at each other scene**

I don't see why it's a big assumption. Verin was staying with Rand. She had been for 3 books by his side, and "in his company" (very loosely) since the end of Lord of Chaos. She was doing things to serve Rand around Rand, and directly for him.

At the end of this chapter, she up and leaves. Something caused this reaction. Obvious reason is: something was brought to her attention that was of vital importance.

The new information I argue for is both the Borderlanders and Rand's plan. Now, one could make the case that Verin already knew about both of these, but that's a tenuous claim at best. The way that would work is saying that either Verin knew of the Borderlanders before (and was just tuning out then or something), and had previous knowledge of the Prophecies that just clicked in her mind. Now, we've seen Verin know Prophecies before that very few others have clicked on (Perrin's hammer most strikingly), yet it's still a leap to just assume that she knew about this important piece of prophecy. Far easier, logical, and likely of just "She just learned of it/learned of it's impact on Rand's plans and went to follow through on it."

Green Man 22: 2006-04-28

Having just read chapters 18-20 of KoD, I have to agree with Callandor's theory that Verin is going to secure the support of the borderlanders. This theory has lots of support, and after reading all the replies, I see no evidence that any other location is a better possibility.

People keep bringing up the fact that the borderlanders are already going to fight with Rand at the Last Battle. While I think it is fair to say that is certain, I do think it is a mistake for Rand to ignore them completely so far. I think that Rand's assessment is probably true, that the Seanchan will control the South and West and Rand will control the North and East. With that in mind, it only makes sense for Rand to focus on the Borderlands next. While the Borderlands know they have to fight with Rand at the Last Battle, Rand's army would likely be much more unified, and the Borderlanders much more under his control, if he ASKED them to join him, rather than just assuming that they will come.

Hurin returning also makes this theory more compelling, and the fact that Hurin personally dealt with Verin and that he knows Verin was with Rand at Falme makes her a much better ambassador than any other Aes Sedai. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all busy doing other things, and as they are much younger, they would probably not be heard as well as Verin.

It is really hard to determine whether Verin was at the battle at Algarin's manor or not. If she left before, leaving the note for Rand, it would not at all be surprising for the servant to wait to deliver the letter. He is not going to bloody deliver the flaming letter with all the tens of thousands of Trollocs coming!

At the same time, it could be that Verin did wait until after the battle, and the fact that tens of thousands of Trollocs just attacked convinced her even more that she must return the Borderland rulers to the Borderlands.

One point of disagreement with Callandor's assertions: I do not think Verin was looking intently at Logain because of the news he had brought. I think that it had more to do with the almost defiant attitude that Logain had when talking about his title. Logain, although serving Rand, acts more like an equal than a servant, and ALL of the women were eyeing him warily after his outburst, because they didn't really trust him.

"Still seemingly intent on her embroidery needle, Cadsuane laughed softly. Verin's knitting needles had stopped. She was studying Logain, a plump sparrow studying an insect. Alivia had shifted her intense gaze to the man, too, and Harilin and Enaila seemed to be just going through the motions of their game. Min appeared to be reading still, but each hand rested near the opposite cuff of her coatsleeves. She kept some of her knives hidden there. None of them trusted him."

I would think that Verin would know about the Borderland nobles and their location earlier. Again, the battle (if she stayed for it) could have been what convinced her that she needed to go to the Borderlanders.

Of course, if you peruse some of the older theories in the archive, you will find many assertions that everyone was sure would happen, and RJ completely did something different. While this is a possibility with this theory, I think there is a wealth of evidence to support it. Good job, Callandor, and good job defending your claims with quotes and not just random ideas.

Aludra: 2006-04-30

I think you could all be wrong (COULD, no one here is the author)

But we forget Far Madding. Not that I think it overly likely that she went there, but she has legal troubles there. I think it's likely other places as well. She doesn't tell Rand where she's going and what she's doing because its probably illegal. Verin is clothed in mystery because she keeps to herself. She doesn't want anyone to find out that she used compulsion, for example. I don't think she's Black Ajah, But kind of like Galad's opposite. He always does the right thing, no matter what the consequenses. Verin tends to engage in illegal and immoral behavior to acheive the ends necessary.

Callandor: 2006-05-01

**But we forget Far Madding. Not that I think it overly likely that she went there, but she has legal troubles there. I think it's likely other places as well.**

What's in Far Madding that would be important to Verin? It's as likely as any other place in the world for the single reason of we know it's name. It's possible Verin went back to Falme because she's been there and there was a confrontation. Do we have anything else to support that? No. Besides pulling essentially random places out of a hat, focus on how it serves Verin's goal, and then through that how it serves Rand's goals, and then add in what we know about just before she left.

JakOShadows: 2006-05-01

Why would Verin need to go to Far Madding though? In WH, we see that she has a reputation there, and that she needed to use a false name. But considering how close Tarmon Gaidon is, I don't think what occured at Far Madding is really an issue. She could wait quite a few years before she addressed it, why not take care of it earlier in the storyline when she was already there. It's an interesting though and quite possible, made it doesn't make logical sense to me. But I won't rag on you too much, because this theory in general is mostly circumstantial.

Petunia: 2006-05-03

I agree with what blytzt said: while all the above theories are well thought-out, so are the arguments against them. I think she is going to step through the finn door in Tear to get some answers of her own.

Prince of Ravens: 2006-05-05

I like Petunia's idea.

Getting some good answers from the Finns sound like a good idea, especially for someone like Verin.

Prince of Ravens: 2006-05-06

I agree with Petunia.

Asking the 'Finns some questions herself would be really fitting for Verin.

ec18: 2006-05-14

It's very difficult to guess or say anywhere above anywhere else. Verin could be gone to Bandar Eban or Shara for all the note at the end of KoD says, but Perrin or Mat seems most likely to me as opposed to a specific city. and out of those two, most likely Perrin as Mat is going off to the tower of Ghenjei. But all is idle speculation at the moment. But that Verin is gone to Perrin is most probable in my mind.

Callandor: 2006-05-14

**It's very difficult to guess or say anywhere above anywhere else. Verin could be gone to Bandar Eban or Shara for all the note at the end of KoD says, but Perrin or Mat seems most likely to me as opposed to a specific city. and out of those two, most likely Perrin as Mat is going off to the tower of Ghenjei. But all is idle speculation at the moment. But that Verin is gone to Perrin is most probable in my mind.**

Sorry I don't mean to be rude, but did you read anything of what I posted? I specifically addressed this in the opening. Unless you're assuming Verin is all-knowing, she has no idea where to even begin looking for Perrin or Mat. Any reason for her leaving to look for them is immediately suspect as tenuous due to what we do know about what was revealed right before Verin left and serving as the impetus for her to leave.

ghostfromthepast: 2006-05-15

I have a problem with this theory. first what is Verin's connection to the Borderlands. The only direct evidence we have is her visit to Fal

Dara with the Amyrlin Seat. there she deduced that Rand or Mat or Perin could channel and that he msut be the Dragon Reborn. There is no indication she has had any contact with any of the kings or queen's of the Borderalnd countries. So Why would any of these heads of state accept Verin as an emissary from the DR.

Allana Mosvani is Arafellin and Rand can trust her implicitly because of Min's vision. Kirunathe sister of the king of Arafel and would likely be better received.

In DR Siuan Sanche met with Verin alone when she returned fom Toman Head. We know for sure that Verin and Siuan know the exact location of the Horn. Maybe Leane knows but there is no confirmation. it is improbable that Elayne, egwene or Nynaieve would know its whereabouts other than it is safely stowed away in the Tower.

Verin and Siuan are the only ones that can recover the Horn. Since Verin knows where the Dr is hiding and what hisplans are she has a better chance of finding him when the Horn is recevered.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-05-15

I just found a passage that would certainly support this theory.

KoD Chapter 18 (Verin speaking re the Last Battle)

"It will come soon. According to everything I've read on the subject, the signs are quite clear"

Now when you get near to the completion of a prophecy (as Verin states is happenning), you are never exactly sure when that prophecy will be fulfilled (ie. What if TLB happened tomorrow?)

So Verin is no doubt feeling a great deal of both uncertainty, and urgency.

She then finds out :

KoD Chapter 18 (Rand on his conversation with the snakes-n-foxes on how to win the Last Battle)

"The north and the east must be as one. The south and the west must be as one. The two must be as one"

So she may see the Borderlanders as a priority, even if Rand considers them a formality...

...after all, there are those 13 Aes Sedai with them...they could very well complicate things, because Borderlanders are very respectful of Aes Sedai.

Verin may feel she is the best placed person to quickly bring them into the fold without complication.

...ie is the sense of urgency (that Verin likely feels) more than anything else, that supports Verin going to the Borderlanders.

Aan Allein: 2006-05-16

How about this....

Verins itinerary for her trip:

1.) Swing by Tar Valon to pick up HoV, while there she will save Egwene

2.) Take a little jaunt to Caemlyn and help Elayne gain the throne with some kind of sage advice.

3.) Hop skip and a jump to the black tower to kill Taim

4.) Head over to the Seanchan and set up a treaty for Rand to sign

5.) A little stop over in Arad Domon to make sure the nobels there are in line.

6.) And finally a quick run to the Borderlands and sweep up the nobles to come and meet Rand

I mean why not... she is Verin... why can't she just do it all...

Really I think Verin could have just had a nervous breakdown... there is no telling, and there are no hints in the book that really lead us in any direction... this post is treading water right now... not knowing which direction it should go... I don't think that we can reason out what Verin would do, partly because RJ didn't give us all of the information that Verin could possess, and partly because these kinds of things are what make RJ great. Verin can come in and save the day now from any angle, thus eliminating the Deus Ex Machina that we have seen in so many other series... Verin is a believable veriable to help any situation... she won't just pop out of mid air... I think that we should focus on more important things like... I don't know... deciding if Mat's luck is Taveren related...

Callandor: 2006-05-16

**I have a problem with this theory. first what is Verin's connection to the Borderlands. The only direct evidence we have is her visit to Fal

Dara with the Amyrlin Seat. there she deduced that Rand or Mat or Perin could channel and that he msut be the Dragon Reborn. There is no indication she has had any contact with any of the kings or queen's of the Borderalnd countries. So Why would any of these heads of state accept Verin as an emissary from the DR.**

As I said, Hurin is the connection to verify any direct link from Verin to Rand due to knowing she was also at Falme.

Also, Verin is Aes Sedai. What ruler is going to turn her away needlessly, especially when she would be claiming to be from Rand/know where he is/deal with them in Rand's stead?

**Allana Mosvani is Arafellin and Rand can trust her implicitly because of Min's vision. Kirunathe sister of the king of Arafel and would likely be better received.**

But Rand isn't thinking about the Borderlanders -- that's the entire point. Verin is doing this on her own because Rand has been ignoring the Borderlanders and skipping them in his thoughts.

Plus, Verin was also one of those Min saw that would serve Rand in her own way.

**In DR Siuan Sanche met with Verin alone when she returned fom Toman Head. We know for sure that Verin and Siuan know the exact location of the Horn. Maybe Leane knows but there is no confirmation. it is improbable that Elayne, egwene or Nynaieve would know its whereabouts other than it is safely stowed away in the Tower.**

Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Moiraine, Mat, Perrin, Rand, Lan, Loial, Min -- and there could still be others I am forgetting, know the Horn is in the Tower.

**Verin and Siuan are the only ones that can recover the Horn.**

No, they're the ones that can do it easiest. The problem is that it's useless to get the Horn. Only Mat can use it, and they don't know where he is.

Callandor: 2006-05-19

**I mean why not... she is Verin... why can't she just do it all... **

Hence the reason why I said it's much easier to view Verin as an actual human being, and not omnipotent or omnicent.

**Really I think Verin could have just had a nervous breakdown... there is no telling, and there are no hints in the book that really lead us in any direction**

Well, that's a fantastically dismissive statement in light of what I have presented. Would you care to substantiate it, rather than just say "We can't possibly know, so let's not try."?

**I don't think that we can reason out what Verin would do, partly because RJ didn't give us all of the information that Verin could possess, and partly because these kinds of things are what make RJ great.**

Another thing that makes Jordan great is that he foreshadows and gives enough clues early on so that one should be able to figure things out. Was anyone truly caught by surprise when we learned Moiraine was still alive for now? We've had sufficent grounds for saying she's still alive since right after she was "killed."

Jordan has given us clues. If you don't think the ones I have given are the correct ones, say why, don't just dismiss them entirely.

ghostfromthepast: 2006-05-24

**Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Moiraine, Mat, Perrin, Rand, Lan, Loial, Min -- and there could still be others I am forgetting, know the Horn is in the Tower.**

Only Siuan And Verin know the exact location of the horn They hid it in the Tower. The others may know it is in the Tower but would not know where to begin to look for it.

Ron al Doskam: 2006-05-24

Has any one ever wondered about the fact that Verin still could be a member of the black ajah. For one thing we know that the Supreme council excists out of three members. Galina, alvairin and a third, who is yet unkown. She has laid (TGH)before. The weave she put on the captured AS is not harmless. Therefor it is possible that she is the third member and could have left for BA bussiness and left Elza behind to watch over Rand. Just a thought, but the BA (alvairin met Fain in the vault where the HoV was kept, so the Dark knows where it is hidden. Therefor it is possible that Verin Went to the tower to get it.

Callandor: 2006-05-28

**Only Siuan And Verin know the exact location of the horn They hid it in the Tower. The others may know it is in the Tower but would not know where to begin to look for it.**

There are many that know the Horn is in the Tower. Knowing that can enable them to find it, eventually. Verin and Siuan would just have the easiest time about it.

**Has any one ever wondered about the fact that Verin still could be a member of the black ajah.**

No. We've seen Verin's POV in multiple instances, and seen her actions. She's a light follower. She just can use some shady means sometimes.

**Therefor it is possible that she is the third member and could have left for BA bussiness and left Elza behind to watch over Rand. Just a thought, but the BA (alvairin met Fain in the vault where the HoV was kept, so the Dark knows where it is hidden. Therefor it is possible that Verin Went to the tower to get it.**

Verin did use the Compulsion-like weave, but when you read her section, from her POV, it's expressly clear that Verin is still operating under the Three Oaths. Such as this:

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers, PROLOGUE: Deceptive Appearances

"What...?" Beldeine said drowsily. Her head would have lolled except for Verin's grip, and her eyelids were half-closed. "What are you...? What is happening?"

"Nothing that will harm you," Verin told her reassuringly. The woman might die inside the year, or in ten, as a result of this, but the weave itself would not harm her. "I promise you, this is safe enough to use on an infant." Of course that depended on what you did with it.**

Verin is stretching the truth all over the place. A Black Ajah would have no need for this.

wolfbrother10: 2006-06-03

Just a question since HoV came about, Does Mat have an affinity to the horn and know where to find it?

Callandor: 2006-06-06

**Just a question since HoV came about, Does Mat have an affinity to the horn and know where to find it?**

Don't know quite what you mean with affinity, but Mat knows the Horn is in the White Tower (though not specifically where, like Verin and Siuan do). But we're given no indication that Mat has like a detectional sense for being near the Horn or anything as of now.

Darelas: 2006-06-08

In one of these posts, someone makes it seem like it would be easy for Verin to grab the Borderland rulers and take them to Rand. However, Elayne is constantly wondering why Rand is "jumping around so much". If Rand is constantly on the move, and Verin has no bond to know where he is, how do u suppose it would be quick for her to find him with the rulers in tow?

Darelas: 2006-06-09

Just curious, if Verin was Black Ajah, wouldn't it make sense to leave just before the Trolloc attack? Nothing in the books says that the Black ajah are bearing the Mark of the DO, in fact, exactly the opposite can be assumed since the DO specifically marked his "creature" in the White Tower. If u were aware of an attack coming with 100,000 Trollocs, wouldn't you find a sneaky way to not be there? It's not like Verin's letter is the first time a Black sister would have tried winning Rand's trust by warning him against other sisters. Anyway, I don't think Verin is a Black sister, I just think she's alot like Cadsuane, she has her own agenda, aside from any other Aes Sedai, and is working to accomplish it. But u can't deny that If Verin was Black, and If she had set a ward to tell her when the Trollocs arrived, then when they arrived, she might say she was done there, and get out before she got mauled ;)

JakOShadows: 2006-06-10

Darelas:

You might have a point if we hadn't seen her pov so much, but as a reader, we get see a lot of chapters with her pov. I have trouble believing that after so long, RJ would not have given us a clue that she is black ajah.

Zalis: 2006-06-20

My only problem with this is the Horn of Valere. Unless the Tower problem is resolved quickly and neatly, the Horn needs to be secured for the LB. (and I've heard other ideas where she does this and then looks for Mat)

Problem is, it's hidden in the Tower where only Siuane and Verin know the location.

Aside from that, I like the idea.

Chang: 2006-06-21

I like this theory a lot. It fits the facts together very nicely and given what the characters know at the end of KoD, it seems very likely she goes to the Borderlanders. But i think callandor stopped short just a little bit i.e. what does she intend to convince the Borderlanders to do, since obviously how much she serves rand is tied to wherever she went. Isn'y it Possible she goes to convince the Borderlanders to join the rebellious Aes Sedai and end the siege quickly and so she can find the Horn. Wild thought i know, but possibly...

Callandor: 2006-06-21

**My only problem with this is the Horn of Valere. Unless the Tower problem is resolved quickly and neatly, the Horn needs to be secured for the LB. (and I've heard other ideas where she does this and then looks for Mat)

Problem is, it's hidden in the Tower where only Siuane and Verin know the location.**

And what exactly is the problem?

The situation with the rebels and the Tower is approaching it's end very quickly, from the state of the siege to the state of the Aes Sedai inside the Tower to the obvious attack by the Seanchan on the way.

The issue will be resolved, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be resolved with time to spare.

Added to this, Siuan is at the forefront of the rebellion, so she will be intimately involved assuming she isn't killed for some reason.

On tangents:

1. Again, the Horn has been in the Tower for eight books now. People have known the Last Battle is coming since they knew the Dragon was reborn, let alone after he declared himself. The Horn being in the Tower does make it secured.

2. Yes, Verin and Siuan are the only ones that know specifically where the Horn is. However, they are quite a lot more people that know the Horn is in the Tower in general.

3. What would be the point of Verin "securing" the Horn of Valere? She has no idea where Mat is. The Horn (at least as far as we and Verin would know) is useless without Mat. Even Rand has no true idea where Mat is, and he has the benefit of glimpses of what Mat is doing at several instances.

4. Where is the reference for the Horn in the section? What did Verin learn about the Horn before she left that made her jump up and leave right then? The best that can be said is that Verin said the Last Battle is approaching, and that again has been a known fact for over 20 years for some people, and over 2 years for countless others. Moreover, Verin is repeating old news, even with the news that she is saying. She's still there, repeating these pieces of news, instead of leaving right away to go get the Horn.

Anubis: 2006-06-24

The problem, Callandor, is that the Horn no longer needs to be secured. It needs to be tied to Matrim Cauthorn's saddle.

JakOShadows: 2006-06-26

Anubis:

That doesn't change the fact that Verin has no idea where Mat is and you think she would have been trying to find him more before this if this was her goal. I agree that the horn is probably more important than the borderlanders, but the fact is there isn't much that she could do given what we believe she knows.

Callandor: 2006-06-26

**The problem, Callandor, is that the Horn no longer needs to be secured. It needs to be tied to Matrim Cauthorn's saddle.**

Says who?

Even if we accept this as true, you're still not addressing three key points that would have to be explained or Verin knew:

1. Where Mat is.

2. Why someone else cannot do it.

3. Where is the key pieces of information to bring about her leaving at that time?

Simply saying "Well, it doesn't need to be secured anymore." is not enough. Maybe it does need to be with Mat soon, but it still doesn't solve the other issues of why Verin left at that time, why no one else can do it but Verin, and what good having the Horn with her would do.

Karede: 2006-06-28

First of all, I think this is brilliant. Very well researched and tied to many different parts of the series.

However-

**2. Why someone else cannot do it.**

The horn only works for Mat. Until he dies.

Just a general comment-->

There was a BA at the cleansing and she killed forsaken to help.

Callandor: 2006-06-28

****2. Why someone else cannot do it.**

The horn only works for Mat. Until he dies**

Yes, this is true, but it doesn't address the point. It could be Mat that the Horn only works for, it could be a frog, it could be Egwene -- but why is it that Verin is the only one that can do this? Why can't someone else, say Siuan (or even someone who knows the Horn is only in the Tower if not the specific location), fulfill this "need" to get the Horn?

Sampson: 2006-06-30

I like the theory. But I do not agree totally.

I like the idea of Hurin showing back up and helping Rand with the Borderlanders. I also agree that Rand needs to “officially” meet and create an agreement with the Borderlanders.

But I also agree that Verin is not the person to instigate this.

I also agree that getting the Horn out of the WT and in Rands/Mats hands needs to happen pretty quickly. It will be interesting to see how Mat & Group saves Moraine, meets up with Rand and gets his hand on the Horn.

I see that her 70 year mission has been brought up. I think that is why she has left. She has to complete her 70 year mission so the Light can have a better chance at winning the LB.

Also, Rand explaining what he learned through the ‘Finn might have tickled a memory about the dark prophecies and also can be tied to her mission.

Callandor: 2006-07-01

**But I also agree that Verin is not the person to instigate this.**

Why?

**I see that her 70 year mission has been brought up. I think that is why she has left. She has to complete her 70 year mission so the Light can have a better chance at winning the LB.**

What do you think her 70 year mission is? I personally think it's the overarching goal of her entire effort in this series: namely to help the Dragon Reborn win the Last Battle. Verin getting the Borderlanders can easily facilitate that as well.

Sampson: 2006-07-03

**But I also agree that Verin is not the person to instigate this.**

Why?

Rand already has enough characters and allies that are tied to the border lander’s. Any of them can help facilitate the initial meeting. The Border Lander decision makers I hope are intelligent enough to see that the last battle is extremely close, and will not demand all the pomp and ceremony to be “Officially” allied with the Dragon Reborn.

Plus, like has been pointed out, Lan will be consolidating the remaining boder land forces. The AS with the BL leaders will be taught how to make gateways. Bashire and the rest of the generals will have a quick sit down, come up with a rough plan of action. Then disperse to strategic locations to be ready for the LB.

I just feel that it is not the most efficient way to utilize ones resources. That is one of the reasons I like Verin so much. I think she understands this concept, she will let others handle what they should be able to handle, while she handles what she feels is her responsibility.

They key was when she knew that Cadsuane is really about helping Rand and the Light to win the last battle. As soon as she felt Rand was safe with Caddy, she felt she was freed up to accomplish what tasks she has to accomplish.

**I see that her 70 year mission has been brought up. I think that is why she has left. She has to complete her 70 year mission so the Light can have a better chance at winning the LB.**

What do you think her 70 year mission is? I personally think it's the overarching goal of her entire effort in this series: namely to help the Dragon Reborn win the Last Battle. Verin getting the Borderlanders can easily facilitate that as well.

Personally, I think Verin might be the biggest key to winning the LB. But nobody will really understand that it was Verin who deciphered what had to be done. I am really not sure what it will be that she learns, but I think the subject is around the dark prophecies. If you remember back in the tGH we got some foreshadowing that the DP has a tendency to come true also.

So I think Verin will be able to piece together the Isam/Luc thing, coupled with some other aspect of the DP and what Rand has to do to reseal the DO. If she is successful, everybody will assume Rand was killed during the last battle. But through her actions Rand will still be alive, either in Ishy’s new body or some other way.

I am still trying to figure if Fain might be part of her responsibility, but I am tending to think not. Fain seems like he is Rand’s responsibility to destroy.

Ron al Doskam: 2006-07-03

In one of his replies, Calandor stated that only Siuan and Verin know the exact location of the Horn. In, I think FoH or LoC Padan Fain steals back the dagger of Shadar Logoth. He was caught red handed by a Accepted and later on Alvairin enter the storageplace. Fain felt where the horn was lying and wanted to get beack there to snatched it.

He was stoped by Alvairin who also knew where the horn was. So the shadow knows the location of the horn and even Mesaana could not get a single piece out of the storage rooms, because they are warded and guarded and every piece is counted at least one time a day.

Callandor: 2006-07-03

**Rand already has enough characters and allies that are tied to the border lander’s. Any of them can help facilitate the initial meeting. The Border Lander decision makers I hope are intelligent enough to see that the last battle is extremely close, and will not demand all the pomp and ceremony to be “Officially” allied with the Dragon Reborn.**

Like who?

**Plus, like has been pointed out, Lan will be consolidating the remaining boder land forces.**

And like I have pointed out he can do so and it is completely irrelevant to this. He left after Verin did. He and Nynaeve did not know of her mission.

Verin would see it as an imperative to get the Borderlands to Rand's side, and the way to do that most practically is not marshall their nations without their consent -- it's to go to the rulers, who are already looking for Rand.

And, yet again as I have already pointed out, both Verin and Lan can succeed in this, and marshal all the Borderlanders this way.

**The AS with the BL leaders will be taught how to make gateways. Bashire and the rest of the generals will have a quick sit down, come up with a rough plan of action. Then disperse to strategic locations to be ready for the LB.**

And what about the part that Rand want's nothing to do with the leaders? Hence why Verin would go in the first place -- Rand is leaving out a very key piece of the puzzle.

**I think she understands this concept, she will let others handle what they should be able to handle, while she handles what she feels is her responsibility.**

I agree -- which is why she is not going to any area where Rand is going to be dealing with, like the Seanchan, Arad Doman, Illian, the Black Tower, or what is already being taken care of like Caemlyn with Elayne, and the Tower with Egwene. (or what she has truly no idea about, like Moiraine, Mat, and Perrin).

**As soon as she felt Rand was safe with Caddy, she felt she was freed up to accomplish what tasks she has to accomplish.**

Then why didn't she leave in Winter's Heart, when she became sure of Cadsuane?

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds

"Oh, yes; of course." Hastily filling a second cup, Verin slipped the small vial back into her pouch unopened. It was good to be sure of Cadsuane at last. "Do you take honey?" she asked in her most muddled voice. "I never can remember."**

Why wait till now to leave, if that is all it took?

And since you seem to agree that Verin's 70 year mission is to help Rand win the Last Battle, how is this not facillitating that goal?

Callandor: 2006-07-03

**Fain felt where the horn was lying and wanted to get beack there to snatched it.**

No, he wanted to look for it, though:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 19 - Memories

Silently he snarled at, himself. Fool. Playing the Aes Sedai's game, groveling for them; then one moment of anger to ruin all. Sheathing the dagger, he nicked himself, and licked the wound before sticking the weapon under his coat. He was not at all what she thought. He had been a Darkfriend once, but he was beyond that, now. Beyond it, above it. Something different. Something more. If she managed to communicate with one of the Forsaken before he could dispose of her. .. Better not to try. No time to find the Horn of Valere now. There were followers awaiting him outside the city. They should still be waiting. He had put fear into them. He hoped some of the humans were still alive.**

**He was stoped by Alvairin who also knew where the horn was.**

She stopped Fain in the room where he retrieved the dagger. We have no knowledge if the Horn is in there, and so there is no reason to assume Alviarin, and then Mesaana, knows. The Shadow knows Mat blew the Horn, but we have no reasont to believe they know where it is stashed.

Karede: 2006-07-05

Callandor, I misunderstood your question in my previous reply.

Now for the assumption that Fain can "feel" the Horn--> **In one of his replies, Calandor stated that only Siuan and Verin know the exact location of the Horn. In, I think FoH or LoC Padan Fain steals back the dagger of Shadar Logoth. He was caught red handed by a Accepted and later on Alvairin enter the storageplace. Fain felt where the horn was lying and wanted to get beack there to snatched it**

Nope, Fain can sense the dagger, and is drawn to it. He just knew that the Horn was with the dagger.

Anubis: 2006-08-02

" **Fain felt where the horn was lying and wanted to get beack there to snatched it.**

No, he wanted to look for it, though:"

I'm sorry Callandor... but what the hell? Fain wanted to locate the Horn of Valere, that much is in your quote, however, the heavy implication was that he wanted to steal it. Something he has spent the whole of the last book doing. Unless you expect me to believe that Mr Horn Thief Fain was going to just look at the Horn, maybe touch it, examine the fine craftmansship, read the inscription, and put it back. Of course he wanted to steal it, if he got the opportunity, but the dagger was much more important to him.

Callandor: 2006-08-03

**I'm sorry Callandor... but what the hell? Fain wanted to locate the Horn of Valere, that much is in your quote, however, the heavy implication was that he wanted to steal it.**

He in no way felt it though.

**Something he has spent the whole of the last book doing.**

You know what Fain has been doing in Knife of Dreams? Or are you refering to some other book? It'd be great if you can prove this, since we haven't heard any solid thing on Fain since Winter's Heart.

**Of course he wanted to steal it, if he got the opportunity, but the dagger was much more important to him.**

That's the entire thing. It wasn't a necessity to Fain, as you're trying to imply it was. If it came up, sure he'd take it. So would anyone if they knew of it, where it was, and was near by. But Fain's opprotunity was averted by Alviarin, and we have absolutely no reason to believe he has any more interest in it, since his actions (and point of view) past this event have been completely away from the Horn.

Anubis: 2006-08-04

****Of course he wanted to steal it, if he got the opportunity, but the dagger was much more important to him.**

That's the entire thing. It wasn't a necessity to Fain, as you're trying to imply it was.**

Please explain to me how "steal it if he got the opportunity" came anywhere near to implying that the horn was a necessity to him. Then, explain why you jumped to talking about Winters Heart, when I did not mention it in any of my posting and the quote you brought up was from The Fires of Heaven.

Callandor: 2006-08-06

**Please explain to me how "steal it if he got the opportunity" came anywhere near to implying that the horn was a necessity to him.**

My mistake, I was taking someone else's words as your own.

**Then, explain why you jumped to talking about Winters Heart, when I did not mention it in any of my posting and the quote you brought up was from The Fires of Heaven.**

Winter's Heart was brought up for a very simple reason. You said:

**Something he has spent the whole of the last book doing.**

Which is an entirely vague. What last book? Knife of Dreams I can only assume, where we didn't see Fain at all or have any confirmed word on his actions. So, if that is what you meant, it's an incorrect, or at best unproven, statement.

If you meant last book we see Fain, then it's Winter's Heart that is the last -- amazingly, he didn't to anything in there regarding the Horn of Valere.

So either you worded your statement wrong, or it's just incorrect anyway. That is why I brought up Winter's Hear -- to try and find out just what the heck you are talking about.

Anubis: 2006-08-14

Last book was refering to The Great Hunt, apologies for vagueness.

vardene: 2006-08-21

well, pls forgive this post if it seems rather hurried because it is! this issue is becoming quite fascinating and i'm not sure rj wont prove us all wrong but i wont to introduce a few things i've not heard anyone talk about here.

First does Verin know suian and moiraine are alive she never went to salidar and i dont see the others bringing up a stilled woman or al meaara talking about someone she's not supposed to be friendly with. so i guess she must see herself as the only one who knows where the horn is. its probably also warded. By suian or herself.

Second, rand cant go to the borderland kings even if he takes callandor because they have THIRTEEN AS with them. he'll have to find a safe way to deal with them and he definitely wont want it to come to a battle. who should he trust. And verin does warn him to be wary of aes sedai. so its also possible she went to ensure that way is clear for rand to meet with the kings. this is more likely since she took tomas with her. she shouldn't need him for a quick trip to the WT to fetch the HoV and out.

Third, which turns my stomach in knots is that we dont know what else verin knows. she is brown ajah and dedicated to the DR and TG for at least seventy years(i dont remember where i saw that) but more than that , all AS have some knowledge of the future from the ring terangreal. it is the likeliest place for verin to konw of upcoming events. and what else would she see since she has spent most of her life dedicated to the effort. she'd have known the dragon would come in her lifetime. so she might be off for something else she knows about that rand needs. she speaks of the ghosts as having some significance she's aware of and possibly one that frightens her so much she tried to push caddy in that direction and then leaves anote for rand very similar to what moiraine did before lanfear. it must be cheering to know when u'll die.we should consider that but since we cant predict what that would be, i'll have to stick to the borderlanders. she likely has aplan to deal with those sisters there. so what do you think i need brain surgery

Karede: 2006-08-22

**this is more likely since she took tomas with her. she shouldn't need him for a quick trip to the WT to fetch the HoV and out**

Tomas is her warder. How many times do you ever see any AS go off and just leave her warder behind. You remember how much trouble Land had letting Moraine go into Rhudien alone. And any trip to the White Tower will not be a walk in the park for any AS that was not there when Elaida's coup took place and has failed to show up since. I believe that Verin did go to the Borderlanders, but I think citing the fact that she took her warder is a very useless piece of information. Look at the actions of Lan and Nynaeve throughout KoD. The next book is being set up for Rand to meet with the Borderlanders and begin to march North. Marching North is only possible because Elder Haman is closing the waygates for Rand.

Callandor: 2006-08-22

**First does Verin know suian and moiraine are alive she never went to salidar and i dont see the others bringing up a stilled woman or al meaara talking about someone she's not supposed to be friendly with. so i guess she must see herself as the only one who knows where the horn is. its probably also warded. By suian or herself.**

Hmm, I don't know for certain if Verin knows Siuan is alive -- as in actual passage saying it -- but there is more than enough people from both the Aes Sedai that were originally in the Salidar embassy to Rand that swore fealty, as well as Nynaeve herself. As well, with the talk of what Damer did, it seems highly likely Nynaeve would put her accomplishments forward. So I don't see it as an incredibly impossible thing that Verin doesn't know Siuan is alive (let alone Healed).

** she is brown ajah and dedicated to the DR and TG for at least seventy years(i dont remember where i saw that) but more than that , all AS have some knowledge of the future from the ring terangreal.**

Not quite. It's Wise Ones that know possible futures from going into the Rhuidean rings -- Aes Sedai going through the Accepted test rings could possibly hold clues about the future, but by themselves are not prophetic really. There are many glaring errors in both Nynaeve and Egwene's Accepted tests that makes it quite likely a large part of what they see is based on the person's knowledge at the time (like how Nynaeve can sense Aginor channeling naturally, which is impossible).

**How many times do you ever see any AS go off and just leave her warder behind.**

Well, I feel it's beside the point, but Nynaeve did a spectacular example of doing so even if you don't consider Lan her "Warder" in truth. But as well, it depends a bit on what you mean by leaving. For example, in The Great Hunt, Verin sent Tomas to Tarabon without her. But again I feel it's beside the point -- wherever Verin went, she took Tomas with her or sent him elsewhere.

**Look at the actions of Lan and Nynaeve throughout KoD. The next book is being set up for Rand to meet with the Borderlanders and begin to march North. Marching North is only possible because Elder Haman is closing the waygates for Rand.**

Except for two things very similar:

1. Rand does not know about what Nynaeve did with Lan. Only she does.

2. Again, Rand doesn't want anything to do with the Borderlanders, or even the Borderlands. He's completely focused on other matters like the Seanchan and then the Black Tower possibly before the Last Battle. The Borderland(er)s aren't a topic on his list of things to do. I'm sure somewhere down inside he realizes he has to deal with them, but it's not like he's fretting over having to get the North like he should be. He's ignoring it.

Anubis: 2006-08-24

**2. Again, Rand doesn't want anything to do with the Borderlanders, or even the Borderlands. He's completely focused on other matters like the Seanchan and then the Black Tower possibly before the Last Battle. The Borderland(er)s aren't a topic on his list of things to do. I'm sure somewhere down inside he realizes he has to deal with them, but it's not like he's fretting over having to get the North like he should be. He's ignoring it.**

Which really just makes sense. If any group of nations should be able to get itself ready for Tarmon Gaiden without the Dragon Reborns help it is the borderlands.

JakOShadows: 2006-08-25

***Which really just makes sense. If any group of nations should be able to get itself ready for Tarmon Gaiden without the Dragon Reborns help it is the borderlands.***

I agree that it doesn't make sense, but I think he is worried about the 13 AS with them. I don't think the borderland leaders want him taken to the tower against his will; but based on their culture, they might not do anything to stop it either. But I do think that he should have sent some one to talk to them instead of leaving to hang out and dry.

Callandor: 2006-08-26

**Which really just makes sense. If any group of nations should be able to get itself ready for Tarmon Gaiden without the Dragon Reborns help it is the borderlands.**

It doesn't make any sense based on what Rand himself was told. The north and the east must be as one. Rand has the east now, as anyone truly looking at it would agree. He needs to get the Seanchan in play for the south and west, but he also needs to get the north. It's not just "Well, they'll follow me because I know it's so." It should be in his thinking process "Hmm, I need to do something with the Borderlanders...." Whether it's conquering them, negotiating with them, or simply standing in awe in front of them it has to be something. He's not doing anything. Not putting a single thought to it except "Stay away!"

That's a big problem that needs to be addressed.

Anubis: 2006-08-28

**It doesn't make any sense based on what Rand himself was told. The north and the east must be as one.**

Blah blah blah blah. All information we know right now aside, you would think that the nations who spend their lives fighting the Dark One would be the first to get themselves in gear to fight the last battle. I mean, these guys deal with Trollocs on a regular basis, know the last battle is coming, and are jerking off in the woods of Andor. It makes no sense. You would think they would be out building fortrifications like no other. Or at least preparing. Or SOMETHING. But they arent. I'm not arguing about realities, just expectations.

Callandor: 2006-08-29

**Blah blah blah blah. All information we know right now aside, you would think that the nations who spend their lives fighting the Dark One would be the first to get themselves in gear to fight the last battle. I mean, these guys deal with Trollocs on a regular basis, know the last battle is coming, and are jerking off in the woods of Andor. It makes no sense. You would think they would be out building fortrifications like no other. Or at least preparing. Or SOMETHING. But they arent. I'm not arguing about realities, just expectations.**

1. If you're just going to be so blithe with my comments, leave the discussion.

2. The Borderlands are already set up basically for the Last Battle -- no one is questioning that. The question lies in whether they support Rand and what Rand is doing to make sure of that, since he's focusing so much attention to everywhere but the North. He's doing nothing.

3. It doesn't make the most amount of sense that the Borderlanders are far from the Blight, except for two things (that really just underscore what I am saying here): the Blight is quiet, and, as you say, they do know the Last Battle is coming and know that they must deal with Rand. That's the most obvious reason they are looking for him. They know what Rand should know: that he has to do something with the Borderlands. Even Lan knows this. But why the Borderlanders are so far south isn't much of a concern here at all. That they're there is all that is needed. For whatever reason (even if for Rand is the most likely) all that is needed is that Verin needs to know of their importance, where they are, and that Rand isn't thinking about them except to stay away. All three are given.

4. I really don't know what you're arguing about anymore, except trying to bring needless topics into this discussion.

Anubis: 2006-09-15

**4. I really don't know what you're arguing about anymore, except trying to bring needless topics into this discussion.**

Its not needless, though it was presented that way. Rand expects the borderlanders to prepare themselves for the last battle. Somewhere in the back of his head is that expectation. And it is perfectly reasonable.

The only relevence to your theory is why Rand is ignoring the borderlanders.

The interesting thing to me, is that you chose to respond to it. It was clearly a post not worth responding to.

**2. The Borderlands are already set up basically for the Last Battle -- no one is questioning that. The question lies in whether they support Rand and what Rand is doing to make sure of that, since he's focusing so much attention to everywhere but the North. He's doing nothing.**

Also, this is a foregone conclusion. Anyone with any hopes of winning or surviving the last battle and access to the prophecies will support Rand or be a darkfriend. He is their only hope. Its just a matter of them being in on Rands plan, which is why he needs to learn to trust.

Callandor: 2006-09-16

**Rand expects the borderlanders to prepare themselves for the last battle. Somewhere in the back of his head is that expectation. And it is perfectly reasonable.**

Well, you can just assume they are, or actually look at what Rand says and thinks regarding the Borderlanders and Randland itself.

**The interesting thing to me, is that you chose to respond to it. It was clearly a post not worth responding to.**

You're words on this thread are already at the point of being disregarded just on habit due to pointlessness. If you want to be encourage that, go right ahead.

**Anyone with any hopes of winning or surviving the last battle and access to the prophecies will support Rand or be a darkfriend. He is their only hope.**

Right -- like we've seen that work so well with the Tairens, Illianers, Cairhien -- so many others of course.

**Its just a matter of them being in on Rands plan, which is why he needs to learn to trust.**

So, what exactly is your objection, again? They're not in on Rand's plans (because he's not thinking of them), and Verin goes to bring them into Rand's plans... and?

Anubis: 2006-09-20

**So, what exactly is your objection, again? They're not in on Rand's plans (because he's not thinking of them), and Verin goes to bring them into Rand's plans... and?**

I'm not objecting, I'm wondering why the borderlanders aren't in the borderlands digging trenches and sharpening stakes. It's what I would be doing.

Callandor: 2006-09-23

**I'm not objecting, I'm wondering why the borderlanders aren't in the borderlands digging trenches and sharpening stakes. It's what I would be doing.**

Write your own theory about it elsewhere if you so choose. Why they are where they are is ultimately of no importance to this theory -- though the reason strongly implied is because they want to talk to Rand, probably a la Lan's comments in Knife of Dreams (focus on the Blight, not the south).

But when it comes down to it, why the Borderlanders are south only truly matter for:

1. Ease of Verin accomplishing this.

2. People's personal comfort regarding it.

The Borderlanders truly can be where they are for any reason in the world, and it doesn't impact the theory in any unassailable way.

Anubis: 2006-09-30

**Why they are where they are is ultimately of no importance to this theory -- though the reason strongly implied is because they want to talk to Rand, probably a la Lan's comments in Knife of Dreams (focus on the Blight, not the south).**

So let me get this straight. The reason the borderlanders are south, with their armies is to find Rand.

The reason they are south WITH THEIR ARMIES (dont know how to bold) is not relevent to your theory.

Yet, Verin, without knowing their purpose in bring their armies is going to diffuse the situation?

If this is a simple situation, why did the borderlanders not just send messengers to Rand? Hell, they could send messengers to every city Rand has ever been in if they are desperate.

I think that the borderlanders being south in force is perfectly relevant to your theory. At the very least, it will be relevant to Verin if she tries to diffuse the situation.

Also, for all I know the borderlanders could have brought their armies with the intent to join them to Rands group. Still, they picked a wierd ass backwards way of going about it if that is the case.

Callandor: 2006-09-30

**So let me get this straight. The reason the borderlanders are south, with their armies is to find Rand.**

The most likely reason, yes.

**The reason they are south WITH THEIR ARMIES (dont know how to bold) is not relevent to your theory.**

In all truth, no, it is not. The most likely reason they are south, again, is because of looking for Rand. But even if they are not south for just that reason, it doesn't impact this theory much, except in the ease of completion for Verin. Since the entire point of this theory is to explain where Verin went, her actions are the important ones for this theory, not that of the Borderlanders. I mean it's entirely fine with this theory for Verin to have gone to the Borderlanders, fail entirely to get them to come to Rand's side, and that's that. I do not for a moment believe that will happen -- but it can, and the entire point of this theory remains correct: Verin went to the Borderlanders.

**Yet, Verin, without knowing their purpose in bring their armies is going to diffuse the situation?**

Again, Verin's success is auxillary to the true point -- I feel it's a natural extension and wil be carried out, of course, but it's again entirely possible Verin completely fails in getting them to come to Rand because they are south for _____ reason, yet the theory remains correct: Verin left to go to the Borderlanders.

**I think that the borderlanders being south in force is perfectly relevant to your theory. At the very least, it will be relevant to Verin if she tries to diffuse the situation.**

It is relevant to the second, but again, the second is auxillary to this theory even though I feel it will undoubtedly happen.

The entire point of this theory is summed up in it's title: Where Verin Went. She went to the Borderlanders, in the hope of getting them to come to Rand. Whether she fails or not is a separate point, even if I feel she undoubtedly will succeed (as I detailed that auxillary point with pointing out that Hurin still has to show up, going over the most likely reason for the Borderlanders being south, and such).

BrainFireBob: 2006-10-01

Y'know, I've followed this, and I've been surprised no-one's brought up what the Borderlanders intend to do.

Anyone remember Lain Mandragoran, or what Agelmar Jagad wanted to do with the Horn?

The literal-minded Borderlanders favor a military solution to the Shadow problem. Some of them- evidence Ethenielle of Kandor- are undecided on Rand, but that doesn't mean they're not going to try and capture him and then deposit him at Shayol Ghul, expecting- much as Elaida does- that he has an instinctive knowledge of a Level 76 Super Dragon attack that will "kill" the Dark One.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-02

Brainfirebob:

You have a good point there, but I kind of thought that it seems less logical to use it here. If I had gotten the HoV, heck ya' I would use it to go on a rampage through out the blight and kill every minion of the DO. But kidnapping Rand seems a lot less productive as you pointed out. To me, I always thought of the Borderlanders as more practical and logical, even with taking their armies away from the blight, and it would be depressing, in my opinion, if they did something that irrational. But it is quite possible.

Fear: 2006-10-23

Since we are on the topic of pulling all of Rand's allies together, and this is a broad topic seeing as how there are people scattered litterally everywhere. One place I feel is likely she went that hasn't been discounted is Cairhien. And I'm not throwing out a random name like Far Madding here. There are so many people running around doing stuff Rand cant think of everyone. He may not even know how important someone is. Verin tends to go off and do things that no one else thinks of doing. What plans did she lay with the numerous sisters that were running around Cairhien that are ready to bear fruit? The time they spent there is pretty fuzzy to me those couple of books are so boring I tend to skim over them during the reread process.

I guess my point is are there previous plans of hers we forgot about that recent events have made urgent? Is she going to go gather a whole handful of loyal aes sedai together to help Rand. It doesnt necessarily mean Cairhien, but does she have something cooking from a previous book that is ready to use.

Going off to find the borderlanders is possible and more likely than most places, but it is ignoring the fact that Verin usually has a well thought out plan as to what she is doing. Up and deciding to go visit foreigners she doesnt know seems out of character.

Callandor: 2006-10-24

** What plans did she lay with the numerous sisters that were running around Cairhien that are ready to bear fruit? The time they spent there is pretty fuzzy to me those couple of books are so boring I tend to skim over them during the reread process.**

Verin spent her time in Cairhien making sure that the captured Aes Sedai would serve Rand's interests. Most of them are either with Rand currently, or working for his goals.

**I guess my point is are there previous plans of hers we forgot about that recent events have made urgent?**

You're going to have to work on that since as far as I know there aren't any ones that we know of that aren't touched on here.

**Going off to find the borderlanders is possible and more likely than most places, but it is ignoring the fact that Verin usually has a well thought out plan as to what she is doing. Up and deciding to go visit foreigners she doesnt know seems out of character.**

1. Verin does know of the Borderlanders, and more importantly she does know Easar since she was part of the Amyrlin's group that visited Shienar in The Great Hunt. It's not like she's going to meet some completely random people, like the ruling body of Seanchan. As well, even if she didn't know them, the major point is that they would know of her: being Aes Sedai, saying she is working from the Dragon Reborn, and the link from Hurin.

2. And what is it that actually made Verin decide to leave at that time, then? It seems quite foolish to presume she just decided to leave then for some unmentioned reason that had nothing to do with that meeting and what was discussed there. New information was brought about in many ways; most notably, a part of Rand's plans and a way to complete them.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-25

Fear:

The plans she laid in Cairhien are already in motion. The main thing she did there was take control of the embassy and use compulsion on the captured AS from Dumai's Well. I don't think she had any long term plans that would require her to go back to Cairhien, but rather her doings there were meant to be self sustaining.

vardene: 2006-11-17

BTW there's another reason for verin to leave rand's side.there seems to be increasing suspicion of her-Nesune tried to keep her from rand in CoT. Nesune is said to remember everything she sees, if verin used her weave on her, and she started asking questions, verin will be in for it very soon.

She has to keep her oaths, so runs away-she's still serving rand, and saves her skin.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-18

Vardene:

Why couldn't have Verin just compelled her to not tell anyone about what she did? We know Verin is fairly intelligent, so I think she would have had a good way to hide what she did, in case they escaped or something happened.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-19

Not that I read more than the last 2 or 3 of these posts, but as the event in question appears to have occurred before anyone learned to invert their weaved (is it known if Verin can do so yet?), Compelling would require Verin to openly channel and 'attack' another Aes Sedai...who can defend herself...that then becomes a battle of the power with no Guarantee who will win.

Also...as Aes Sedai cannot lie...if Nesune survived...then all she would have to say is 'Verin attempted to attack me with the power by doing (such and such) (she used her weave's just so...)" and Verin would be in for it.

BrainFireBob: 2006-11-21

Ozy-

You're assuming the Borderlanders are pro-Rand. I've commented on this before, they think the Shadow can be beaten militarily. Have you ever considered that they're there to try and capture Rand, haul him to Shayol Ghul, so he can actualize the only Prophecy that matters to them according to their literal interpretation- defeat the Dark One physically?

They are NOT necessarily friendly to Rand, nor will they ally with him- they're most likely to dictate to HIM how he's supposed to fulfill his destiny.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-11-21

***You're assuming the Borderlanders are pro-Rand.***

They are pro-Rand...though like many others, maybe/maybe not in the way Rand wants them to be.

***I've commented on this before, they think the Shadow can be beaten militarily.***

Where did you get this from? The borderlanders know they will be there at the Last Battle as a military force, but they know it's Rand that has to defeat the DO, and they know it's Rand that has to seal the DO away - which can't be done militarily.

Callandor: 2006-11-21

**BTW there's another reason for verin to leave rand's side.there seems to be increasing suspicion of her-Nesune tried to keep her from rand in CoT. Nesune is said to remember everything she sees, if verin used her weave on her, and she started asking questions, verin will be in for it very soon.**

The people do not remember what Verin did to them:

**TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances

At last Beldeine's convulsions lessened, stopped. She raised a filthy hand to her head. "What--? What happened?" she said, almost inaudibly. "Did I faint?" Forgetfulness was another good point about the weave, not unexpectedly. After all, Father must not remember that you somehow made him buy that expensive dress.**

Verin is in the clear, unless we get more information that says otherwise.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-21

snake-n-foxes:

The thing is that a questioner would have to ask Nesune specifically if Verin did something to her to overcome a weave of compulsion. And why would someone even ask about Verin. Even then, what would control it? Think about it, if she was compelled to not tell anyone about it, would she even be able to say? I think she probably would because we have seen weaves of compulsion broken before. But I think it could keep it hidden enough to protect herself. Even if she has taken the three oaths.

Ozymandias: 2006-11-22

Bob, I'm going to be honest and say that I don't have a book on hand (gotta run to the bookstore tomorrow), but I'm gonna go out on a highly tenuous and unsupported limb and disagree with most of what you said. I'm nearly positive that every opinion the Borderlanders express in our hearing is that of confusion at why Rand is ignoring them, and disgust at why Rand is ignoring his natural allies. Both common sense and experience dictate that th Borderlands will be friendly to Rand.

Point A: Of all people, they are the most likely to accept and support Rand, since they are the one people as a whole who wholeheartedly believe in the Trolloc threat, and therefore they are the most likely to follow Rand since logic tells us they will be more beleiving in the prophecies telling us he will save them.

Ozymandias: 2006-11-22

(hit submit by accident.... give me a break, its late!)

Point B: Experiences with the Borderland sovereigns also tells us they will support Rand as subordinates, not as captors. Everyone has heard of Dumai's Wells by now... no one believes they can capture him when the Tower couldn't. The Borderlanders have more or less come out and said to us they want to give their support to Rand if only they could find him. They've gone so far as to head into his strongest lands to do so. You think they would go near the Black Tower, ostensibly still under his control, as well as Andor, firmly in Elayne (another Rand-y person) to capture him? They would be slaughtered. This is quite aside from their implications to the effect that they want to join him. So no, Bob... they do NOT want to capture him. And no, Cal, Verin didn't go to find them... her eyes and ears have certainly told her that they are already on the move looking for Rand, she'll know she's being redundant.

The truth is (drum roll, please).... Verin went to the Land of Madmen. To get their help.

vardene: 2006-11-23

J-o-s, verin's POV indicated that she didnt compel them,she noted they'd have to come up with reasons to obey from within or it was all a waste.

As for borderlanders, they are right about the military importance of the borderlands but they know the real decisive battle will be by the aes sedai and the DR.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-26

vardene:

Allright, its not the textbook definition of compulsion. But she did use the one power to guide them to a decision for their own reasons, so it is still considered taboo by other AS. But now that I think about, it means that there was no way she could have made them forget what happened or hide her identity. Good catch there.

clint: 2006-11-26

One point you may not have considered. Immediately before Verin is studying Rand intently, and on the page before she announces that she's leaving, Rand says:

"The Prophecies say I have to bind the nine moons to me. I only understood what that meant a few days ago. As soon as Bashere returns, I'll know when and where I'm to meet the Daughter of the Nine Moons. ..."

Perhaps Verin, too, did not know until she hears this what the "nine moons" in the Karaethon Cycle referred to.

Verin is beyond question an expert in the Karaethon Cycle prophecies, including the parts about Perrin and Mat. (Such as "When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.") Recall she was very interested in Perrin's axe/hammer dilemma when they were together in Emond's Field.

This might be a very strong motive for her to go looking for Mat -- if she now knows that he is critical to Rand's "binding the nine moons". That she doesn't actually know where he is may not be such an impediment -- She may very well believe (incorrectly) that she does know where he is. Recall that Rand was certain Mat was with Elayne in Caemlyn, and then was certain he was with Egwene. She could easily get involved in other matters on her way to find him -- but she'd be acting on the basis of some hint in prophecy of how Matt will be involved in binding the nine moons to Rand, which he clearly will be.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-27

Nice quote Clint. And the way explain makes it seem possible. But I just can't help thinking that Verin knows Mat isn't with Egwene. Or else she would have tracked him down and talk with him. Of course she could have been avoiding the tower and as a result, not wanted to search for Mat yet.

Either way though it does bring different things into perspective. It is also possible that Mat will appear in Caemlyn, that was the route he was taking after KoD. And then Verin would meet him there too. Not even have to go to the tower like your suggesting. You make a good argument for that possibility though.

vardene: 2006-11-28

clint, good point about perrin and the axe,i'd actually forgotten that. i'm not sure the axe thing is part of the randland prophecies though,like that about him kneeling to the crystal throne.it could have been inserted by ishy(remember the saying: let the lord of chaos rule) or it may be a legit part of the prophecy but only available to the seanchan since they're cut off from the mainland.(though i see no reason for the pattern to do that)

Mat? and how is she going to help him "bind"(that's the op. word in the karatheon cycle) the DoNM? compel them? or drop in among thousands of suldam and damane and snatch her away? who does she bloody think she is, mat bloody cauthon?

Callandor: 2006-11-28

**And no, Cal, Verin didn't go to find them... her eyes and ears have certainly told her that they are already on the move looking for Rand, she'll know she's being redundant.

The truth is (drum roll, please).... Verin went to the Land of Madmen. To get their help.**

We've already had this discussion, Ozy, and you already conceeded. But maybe I'll just quote what was said 7 months ago to reenforce that:

**Uh huh. I'll emphasize the key point and put in the part you forgot to restate:

**I conceded on the grounds that I was tired of repeating myself and watching you not take in a word of what I was saying, not on any basis of agreeing with your argument.**

What you forgot:

**I concede. While I still have a gut feeling that she is not going to the Borderlanders, and remain unconvinced that your evidence shows that that is the place she is going above all others, I cannot find a reasonable alternative with any more foundation that you have, and as such, will at the very least cease argument.**

You said it much better the first time. If you don't want to concede, don't say that you do. If you want to continue arguing your opinion in face of what I've already presented, don't say "I give up." then go back to continue arguing.**

And just as an aside, what "eyes and ears" are you assuming for Verin? As far as I recall, there's no mention of such for Verin.

**But now that I think about, it means that there was no way she could have made them forget what happened or hide her identity. Good catch there.**

It is not a good catch, truly. Again, it's not the perfect form of Compulsion, but it is a derivitive of it, and similar on some points. One of those is forgetting what occured, as I showed with the quote above.

Verin is in the clear, people. They will not remember what happened to them. In their view, it all just be their own realizations, with no knowledge that Verin gave a helping hand.

**This might be a very strong motive for her to go looking for Mat -- if she now knows that he is critical to Rand's "binding the nine moons". That she doesn't actually know where he is may not be such an impediment -- She may very well believe (incorrectly) that she does know where he is. Recall that Rand was certain Mat was with Elayne in Caemlyn, and then was certain he was with Egwene. She could easily get involved in other matters on her way to find him -- but she'd be acting on the basis of some hint in prophecy of how Matt will be involved in binding the nine moons to Rand, which he clearly will be.**

The thing is that Rand says he found out a few days ago. That's old knowledge. It doesn't explain why Verin left when she did, in what seems to be a hurry. Also, it doesn't make any sense why she would leave in the first place. Rand is under the belief that he will be meeting the Daughter of the Nine Moons in person -- that's the entire point of why he's focusing on this truce. If Verin believed otherwise, why wouldn't she tell him? Why would she leave, and have Rand continue in what she felt was a false hope, when he's saying that this is a task that cannot be put off and there are other important things yet to do as well? Or at the very least, if she thought Mat was important, why wouldn't she stay with Rand? By all purposes, Rand's clearly going to meet the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and if Mat is important in this he very well might be there.

As well as what I said in the original theory about such a course:

**Both Mat and Perrin I would say are out of the picture since she more than likely does not know where they are. Yes, she is Verin, and can work miracles, but even Rand only has vague notions of where they are and he has the added advantage of seeing brief images of their locations. Verin would be working on even less information than Rand, and Rand just internally muses about them. So, I feel this is nullified.**

I highly doubt Verin would be off on a quest to go hunt down Mat if she thought he was key to getting the Seanchan in line, when she can have no idea of where he truly is. Again, even Rand does not know, and he has the benefit of seeing glimpses of where Mat actually is at the present.

One of the key pieces to this theory is that Verin knows where her destination or goal is. Then there is the point of the new information spuring up a need to achieve something Rand is overlooking (for the time being). The one that makes sense with what we know is the Borderlanders.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-30

***Verin is in the clear, people. They will not remember what happened to them. In their view, it all just be their own realizations, with no knowledge that Verin gave a helping hand.***

All right, I had the details a bit off. But Verin can still get caught. If someone questions all of the BA, then they will realize that Verin talked to all of the ones that mysteriously helped Rand out. Before what I meant to say, is that they can't be compulsed to not use Verin's name when talking about their discussions with her. You are right though, they will still remember having come up with the idea on their and won't be able to come up with the theory themselves. It would have to be a third person perspective, and that is highly unlikely. So while it is possible she could get caught, I think she is for the most part safe and no one suspects what she did right now.

vardene: 2006-12-02

It is not a good catch, truly. Again, it's not the perfect form of Compulsion, but it is a derivitive of it, and similar on some points. One of those is forgetting what occured, as I showed with the quote above.

callandor,

***Verin is in the clear, people. They will not remember what happened to them. In their view, it all just be their own realizations, with no knowledge that Verin gave a helping hand.***

the weave was designed for use on fathers who cant channel not aes sedai,as we've seen before compulsion can fail in certain instances especially people who can channel or have strong will are concerned.

Two, events so far do not prove verin has escaped.IN WH,(i apologize for not qouting)cadsuane thinks that bher acceptance of the whole thing as ta'veren work took hard knocks. Disturbingly hard knocks.Later in CoT, Egwene thinks that the AS hadn't mentioned compulsion in regard to the issue of the sisters serving rand but they were probably all thinking it.Follow this up with Nesune trying to keep her away from rand, cadsuane's uncertainity regarding her and the fact that she conviniently fled rand's side after cadsuane shut her up and you'll agre RJ may be setting the stage for some revelations.The issue cant die like the demira eriff case, it will have to be investigated sometime and verin's name will crop up as having had access to all the sisters alone.

No callandor,she's noiwhere near clear.

Callandor: 2006-12-02

**But Verin can still get caught. If someone questions all of the BA, then they will realize that Verin talked to all of the ones that mysteriously helped Rand out.**

But Verin is known to have talked to them all. The Wise Ones especially know this; after all, they assigned her the question and she asked for the prisoners.

**TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: Prologue - Deceptive Appearances

Sky blue eyes met hers. A winter sky. "Some pretty drawings and a great deal about plants and flowers," Aeron said coldly. "I see nothing concerning the questions you were sent to ask." She thrust the book at Verin more than handed it to her.

"Thank you, Wise One," Verin said meekly, tucking the book back safely behind her belt. She even added another curtsy for good measure, just as deep as the first. "I have the habit of noting down what I see." One day she would have to write out the cipher she used in her notebooks -- a lifetime's worth of them filled cupboards and chests in her rooms above the White Tower library -- one day, but she hoped not soon. "As for the . . . um . . . prisoners, so far they all say variations of the same thing. The Car'a'carn was to be housed in the Tower until the Last Battle. His . . . um . . . mistreatment . . . began because of an escape attempt. But you know that already, of course. Never fear, though; I'm sure I will learn more." All true, if not all of the truth; she had seen too many sisters die to risk sending others to the grave without a very good reason. The trouble was deciding what might cause that risk. The manner of young al'Thor's kidnapping, by an embassy supposedly treating with him, enraged the Aiel to the point of murder, yet what she called his "mistreatment" barely angered them at all as far as she could tell.**

They all think that what Verin did was question them about Rand's kidnapping and the Tower's plan for them. That would naturally lead to them thinking about what they did and reconsidering it, especially under Aiel punishment (and the shaming).

Verin says they won't remember. We have no basis that they'd remember anything. The purpose of the weave is that they get instructions buried in them, and they find their own rationalizations to carry them out. Elza's a great example of this:

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm

"It is just as well you're with me," she went on. A pity that the Aiel savages were still holding Fera, though she would have to quiz the White on exactly why she had sworn before she could be trusted. Until the journey to Cairhien, she had not known she shared anything with Fera. A very great pity that none of her own heart was with her, but only she had been sent to Cairhien, and she did not question the orders she received any more than Fearil questioned those she gave. "I think a few people are going to have to die soon." As soon as she decided which ones. Fearil bowed his head, and a jolt of pleasure came through the bond. He did like killing. "In the meanwhile, you will kill anyone who threatens the Dragon Reborn. Anyone." After all, it had become perfectly clear to her, while she herself was a captive of the savages. The Dragon Reborn had to reach Tarmon Gai'don, or how could the Great Lord defeat him there?**

No rememberance, and she thinks it just came to her in an epiphany. Where is she to put Verin's hand on this? It's known Verin talked to them all, but nothing else is beyond that.

Callandor: 2006-12-03

**the weave was designed for use on fathers who cant channel not aes sedai,as we've seen before compulsion can fail in certain instances especially people who can channel or have strong will are concerned.**

Yeah, and this is just an irrelevent statement.

1. Channelers seem to be able to fight of Compulsion when they're holding their power only. Hence how Rand could fight off Alanna's attempts to control him when he was first bonded -- he was holding saidin. Verin had the Aes Sedai shielded at the time. They obviously were not holding it, so no immunity.

2. Strong will, according to Jordan, is not a prevelant thing. As well, even if you argue that somehow it's present in these people, we already know they were not strong enough since they've all sworn to Rand with finding their reasons. All of them have already capitulated to what Verin did. There's no resistance. Finally, Verin herself says that she has to get the people vulnerable mentally before the weave would be effective. Obviously, due to the success rate, she did quite well.

3. Again, the weave specifically makes it so that the people do not remember. I already quoted the instance where Beldeine had the weave used against her and -- surprise, surprise -- didn't remember a thing, even though she's a channeler and Aes Sedai. No rememberance.

**Follow this up with Nesune trying to keep her away from rand, cadsuane's uncertainity regarding her and the fact that she conviniently fled rand's side after cadsuane shut her up and you'll agre RJ may be setting the stage for some revelations.**

No, I wouldn't. Cadsuane told Verin to say something that she hadn't been saying the past day -- she didn't say "Verin, shut up, you're on thin ice as it is." And if you're saying that is the reason Verin left, it's certainly the weakest reason I've heard yet.

Regarding ta'veren, Egwene is being an idiot, and isn't near the situation to cause difficulties, let alone just hop in and say "Verin is the one!" As said before, the Aes Sedai do not remember what happened, and they've already submitted to what was done to them by swearing to Rand -- all of their own reasonings to them (and they truly did, just with a helping push from Verin).

There's nothing against Verin, here.

Ozymandias: 2007-03-15

Cal, all the evidence you just produced would work against your own original theory and in favor of my interpretation! Maybe this was pointed out already, and you've gone MIA, so maybe I won't get a response, but think on this.

There is some evidence, which you just presented, which shows that Verin is going around Compelling sisters to submit to Rand. I don't think she's doing this to only Black sisters, she probably doesn't have a clue as to who is who, she's just doing it to Aes Sedai in general who she has access to. Wouldn't this be the perfect thing to do in the Tower? She knows the rebels are at least inclined to listen and respect Rand, what with Egwene, his ex-fiance, at the helm, but the sisters in the Tower are a different matter. She could easily be going there to start subverting sisters in Rand's favor... this, also, is much more important than acting as errand-girl to the Borderlanders. We know Verin has a fairly high, if muted, opinion of her own value and importance. She has a quiet confidence in her own actions that exceed most other Aes Sedai's, I feel. So why would she take such a menial task? Especially when its as simple as mentioning this to Rand... this doesn't have to be such a secretive mission.

terez: 2007-03-16

Ozy:

First of all, you already conceded to Callandor’s points:

"2006-04-12: I concede. While I still have a gut feeling that she is not going to the Borderlanders, and remain unconvinced that your evidence shows that that is the place she is going above all others, I cannot find a reasonable alternative with any more foundation that you have, and as such, will at the very least cease argument."

So, I why come back now, after he’s gone, to disagree again? Now, on to your new objections:

“There is some evidence, which you just presented, which shows that Verin is going around Compelling sisters to submit to Rand. I don't think she's doing this to only Black sisters, she probably doesn't have a clue as to who is who, she's just doing it to Aes Sedai in general who she has access to. Wouldn't this be the perfect thing to do in the Tower?”

No, it wouldn’t. It was the perfect thing to do to the captive sisters with the Wise Ones, because she had access to them. There’s pretty much no way on earth she could get away with doing it on sisters that aren’t captives. Check out what she says about it - first, she uses the moment of confusion right after they are Healed to lay the weave on them:

________________________________
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
PROLOGUE: Deceptive Appearances

In the moments of confusion that gripped anyone after being Healed, while Beldeine still blinked and tried to come back to herself, Verin opened herself further, opened herself through the carved-flower angreal in her pouch. Not a very powerful angreal, but enough, and she needed every bit of the extra Power it gave her for this. The flows she began weaving bore no resemblance to Healing. Spirit predominated by far, but there was Wind and Water, Fire and Earth, the last of some difficulty for her, and even the skeins of Spirit had to be divided again and again, placed with an intricacy to boggle a weaver of fine carpets. Even if a Wise One poked her head into the tent, with the smallest of luck she would not possess the rare Talent needed to realize what Verin was doing. There would still be difficulties, perhaps painful difficulties one way and another, but she could live with anything short of true discovery.
________________________________

In other words, it’s not something that she can just go around doing to free sisters in the Tower. The weave requires for the subject to be vulnerable, and absolute trust is essential:

________________________________
Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was that need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious. That fact cut down its usefulness with men considerably; very few men lacked suspicion around Aes Sedai.
________________________________

All this put together with the fact that Verin hasn’t shown any inclination to do any such thing since she had access to the prisoners makes it extremely unlikely that she has any intentions of doing it with sisters in the Tower. The weave really only worked with these sisters because the conditions were favorable - the prisoners were all feeling vulnerable, after having been essentially broken by the Wise Ones.

“She has a quiet confidence in her own actions that exceed most other Aes Sedai's, I feel. So why would she take such a menial task? Especially when its as simple as mentioning this to Rand... this doesn't have to be such a secretive mission.”

For one thing, negotiating the alliance between the Dragon Reborn and the Borderlanders would by no means be a menial task. Not by any stretch of the imagination. For another thing, it’s not nearly as simple as mentioning it to Rand - he’s got other things on his mind, hence why he doesn’t have time for the Borderlanders, and then there is the possibility that he would have commanded her to stay. That is a big issue, since she has taken an Oath of fealty.

Then, there is the most important issue of all, which you did not address: the issue of timing. The Tower conflict has been going on since before Dumai’s Wells. It is by no means new. Going off to compel sisters in the Tower does not, even if it makes sense (which it does not), explain why she left in such a hurry. The information about the Borderlanders is just in, and it does explain her haste.

Ozymandias: 2007-03-18

I'm not a fan of making underhanded personal shots like you just did, so I'll ignore that you accuse me of only responding when Cal is gone.

And substantively... I reopen the argument because new information is available. I conceded earlier on the grounds of lack of evidence. Cal has presented new evidence, and therefore I begin again.

We know that the Borderlanders need no persuasion to come to Rand's camp. If Verin's eyes and ears have told her of the Borderlanders, she must also know of their intent. Besideswhich, all she has to do is find the rulers, say "I've sworn fealty to Rand, I'll take you to him" and they'll come. thats like what... a 20 minute escapade? Obviously they'll believe her if she says it right out. She'd be done already. And it IS a menial task. ANYONE could do it. Literally. And if there were negotiation involved, Verin would be smart enough to let another sister more suited to negotiations go in her place. No evidence in the books points towards her going to the Borderlanders.

Terez1: 2007-03-21

Ozy:

“I'm not a fan of making underhanded personal shots like you just did, so I'll ignore that you accuse me of only responding when Cal is gone.”

Well, I wouldn’t necessarily say that it was underhanded. :p It was just odd that you addressed your comments to him even though you know he’s gone.

“And substantively... I reopen the argument because new information is available. I conceded earlier on the grounds of lack of evidence. Cal has presented new evidence, and therefore I begin again.”

I hate to be the one to tell you, but The Path of Daggers came out in 1998. It’s not new evidence, and it still doesn’t say what you want it to say.

“We know that the Borderlanders need no persuasion to come to Rand's camp. If Verin's eyes and ears have told her of the Borderlanders, she must also know of their intent.”

It wasn’t Verin’s non-existent eyes-and-ears that told her about the Borderlanders; it was Logain. That is one of the key points of the theory. Maybe you should read it again. ;) The only clue she has to their intent is what Logain told Rand:

________________________________
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

“The news from Andor is fair enough, I suppose,” Logain said, tucking black gauntlets behind his sword belt. He offered Rand a minimal bow, the slightest bending of his back. “Elayne still holds Caemlyn, and Arymilla still holds her siege, but Elayne has the advantage since Arymilla can’t even stop food getting in, much less reinforcements. No need to scowl. I kept out of the city. Black coats aren’t exactly welcome there, in any case. The Borderlanders are still in the same place. You were wise to stay clear of them, it seems. Rumor says there are thirteen Aes Sedai with them. Rumor says they’re looking for you. Has Bashere gotten back yet?” Nynaeve gave him a scowl and moved away from Rand gripping her braid tightly. Aes Sedai bonding Asha’man was all very well in her book, but not the reverse.
________________________________

Rand wants to avoid the Borderlanders, even though he needs them. But they have Aes Sedai with them. Verin knows he needs the Borderlanders, and she knows she can treat with them.

“Besideswhich, all she has to do is find the rulers, say "I've sworn fealty to Rand, I'll take you to him" and they'll come. thats like what... a 20 minute escapade? Obviously they'll believe her if she says it right out. She'd be done already.”

Exactly. And what if she is done already? When Knife of Dreams ends, or rather, when we last saw Rand, it hadn’t been that long since she’d gone. Taking into account riding time and discussion time (which I’m sure would be a bit more than 20 minutes) and then plans after whatever agreement is made, the fact that it wouldn’t take very long isn’t a detractor at all.

“And it IS a menial task. ANYONE could do it. Literally.”

Nope, sorry. Not just anyone could do it - it takes someone with influence to arrange an alliance. Such as an Asha’man (not likely, with the 13 Aes Sedai), or Bashere (also not likely, considering that he’s sort of a renegade at the moment, not to mention being busy), or an Aes Sedai, and considering the 13 Aes Sedai that are with them, and Aes Sedai is clearly the best option. I suppose Loial could do it, but he’s busy with the Great Stump, and Rand is obviously not planning on sending anyone anyway. Which is why Verin took it upon herself. The only possible better candidate would be Kiruna, and Verin can attest to the fact that Kiruna has also sworn fealty to Rand, which should be quite a clincher for the alliance. It’s actually a shame that it didn’t occur to Rand to send Kiruna to the Borderlanders - perhaps he is unaware of the connection.

“And if there were negotiation involved, Verin would be smart enough to let another sister more suited to negotiations go in her place.”

But Verin has to know that there won’t be much negotiation involved. It’s just a matter of establishing alliance, and all she has to do for that is state outright that she has sworn fealty to Rand, and settle down with them to make whatever plans. And there is probably no one more suited to plotting than Verin.

“No evidence in the books points towards her going to the Borderlanders.”

That’s BS, Ozy, and you know it. The strongest evidence by far is the timing - the fact that she left right after the news of the Borderlanders came. Out of all the things that Logain reported, the Borderlanders are the only feasible target. The way that she studied Logain after he mentioned the Borderlanders is also telling, and simply adds weight to the timing evidence. Also, there’s the fact that we know (as per RJ) that Hurin was the one that got the ball rolling in the Borderlands to begin with, and that Verin knows this as well, because he told her when he departed that’s what he was going to do. Hurin not only is familiar with and trusts Verin, but he pledged his help to her should she ever need it. This connection can’t be ignored, either.

BKVMC: 2007-07-29

IMO being one of a few people who knows where the HOV is and who blew it i believe Verin is heading to the white tower to retrieve the HOV and deliver it to Mat (if she can find him)

77jester: 2007-08-10

First of all this is my first post, so I'm not gonna amaze you with quotes from 5 different books. Second I'm not very proficient with a computer, I don't know how everyone here Cuts and Pastes direct passages from the books or other replies. That being said I'm just going to paraphrase.

Callandor you never cease to amaze me with overall grasp of the storyline, and rarely do I find a theory or argument that you make that I disagree with. But in this theory I have to agree with Ozzy when he says his gut feeling is that Verin didn't go to the borderlands from your evidence. Here's why.

1. You're treating Verin like she is Blue Ajah always meddling in causes or politics, or a Grey that negotiates treaties etc... She's a Brown which is primarily focused on research. Every one of her exploits in Randland has been aimed at that goal, ie. going to the two rivers to investigate why 3 taveren and 2 powerful novices came from there, compelling the sisters that swore fealty to see why, feeling Cadsuane out for her intentions, gathering info to make sure Cadsuane is not Black Ajah.

2. Her letter said basically that she can serve Rand better by using her strengths elsewhere. Min said that she would serve him in her own way.

It's more likely that Verin heard something In the answer the Aelfin gave Rand that sparked a memory of a forgotten document she had read before or heard about. When she gave Egwene the dream ring in tDR she was fumbling over all kinds of documents and books. I feel it's more likely that she went to the WT to retrieve a scrap of info she deems relavent, than to run off and play mediator.

Dovien: 2010-09-08

I admit I skipped sections of the discussion but has anyone considered the possibility that Verin has goen to Rhuidean to discover what can be learned through the redstone doorframe?

If Rand's story about true answers was the impetus for her departure then this seems to be an obvious choice for her likely destination. She had plenty of opportunity to interact with people who have been in Rhuidean and may know of the doorframe from them or may have put clues together from her studies as a Brown.

Tenesmus: 2010-09-08

Isn't this all Overcome by TGS? Doesn't she tell Mat all about how she was "pulled" by his taver'en-ess to the zombie villiage?

I thought she left Rand to begin her "end game" with the black ajah; writing letters, settting schemes in motion, etc becasue of the news that Logain brought. She eventually went to the WT because she wanted to remove the oaths, couldn't find the rod, and KILLED herself instead. The timing of these schemes must be crazy important if she had to KILL HERSELF to set them in motion, instead of waiting a day or two to find the oath rod. I doubt we have heard the last of Verin... Come to think of it, I think I just figured out one of the places Verin went before visiting Egwene... I am going to post it as a new "Prediction" Its a doozie!

terez: 2010-09-08

Yes, someone made a zombie post without checking dates, apparently. This theory is debunked.

Macster: 2012-08-07

While quite obviously this theory was proven false, I am curious about one thing: Callandor (and others) were so certain of where Verin was going because of a) the information Logain revealed and b) the significant way she looked at him after the revelation. But since we know what Verin did was a) write letters to pass on instructions/ensure certain things would be taken care of b) seek out one of the ta'veren (it turned out to be Mat) to get them to Caemlyn to stop the Shadowspawn attack and c) go to the Tower to give Egwene the info she needed to bring down the Black Ajah...then my question is, what did any of this have to do with Logain's report and what was going on in that chapter? Did Verin decide to do all those things (and, eventually, kill herself to make it possible) because the info about the ghosts, the Shadowspawn attack, Rand's plans, the Borderlanders, and so on made it clear the Last Battle was coming, and she was afraid as a BA she'd be forced soon to be a Dreadlord? Did she decide the coming of the Last Battle meant she needed to get the Tower unified (by bringing down the BA) so it could follow Rand? Or was the conversation irrelevant and she had just received word about the Shadowspawn attack on Caemlyn and so went to undo her oaths/die so she could prevent that, and all the rest was things she did in case she did have to die? Was Verin's significant look just a red herring by Jordan?

Basically, I'm wondering if people think Jordan misstepped, since so many thought Verin was going to the Borderlanders and dismissed her going to the Tower or either Mat or Perrin when it turns out that's exactly what she did. Was this a case of Jordan not properly foreshadowing what would happen? Or was he misdirecting us with her seeming focus on Logain's news?