Minimize Maximize

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

Read the interview

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Theories

Recent Theories

Last ten theories at Theoryland.

Padan Fain, Roommates With the Dark Oneby aNewAge

The Real Slayerby Cabadrin

How the Bore Will Be Sealedby Tremalking

The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodby Great Lord of the Dark

Callandor's Purposeby RealAshaman

Rand and the True Powerby Zombie Sammael

Caemlyn's Battleby 1eyedfool

Moghedien Raises the Deadby Truthless

Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul

Let me die forever!by Kamaul

Home | Index | Archives | Help

he Three Ripples

by Davian93: 2006-07-05 | 4 out of 10 (8 votes)

Recent Categories: The Ripples

Basis of Theory:

Three Ripples Quote: "She rippled! It was not imagination. Meira's blue eyes widened as far as they could go; she had felt it, too. Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before. In shock, Faile stood up straight and let go of her robe. A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist." -Ch.5 KoD

Theory:

The Three Ripples in the Pattern experienced by Faile and the rest of the inhabitants in the Shaido camp were the physical manifestation of the final 3 Seals breaking. Furthermore, due to this event the Last Battle has officially begun.

Support:

Moridin, at the Forsaken meeting just prior to this event seems far too confident of finding the seals. To quote: "Ah yes. The Seals. Indeed they must be found." Moridin's smile was almost complacent "Only three remain, all in al'Thor's possession, though I doubt he has them with him. They're too susceptible to breaking, now. He will have hidden them. Direct your people to places he has been. Search them yourselves" Ch 3 KoD.

Now I know what you're saying. Moridin is ordering the other Forsaken to find the Seals then obviously he doesn't have them yet. So he couldn't have broken them and there is no connection to the ripple effect. However, Moridin's complacent attitude suggests that he already has the Seals in hand or that he is extremely confident he will have them soon. Supporting this is the level of infiltration that he has on Rand's side, evident in Taim's probable allegience to Moridin. Also, Moridin has been controlling events fairly successfully since the beginning of tEotW. He has the Fisher King where he wants him and the Shadow has clearly been winning so far. So therefore, soon after ordering the Seals to be found there is this massive ripple in the Pattern which strains the bounds or reality...to be exact there are 3 ripples which correspond with the 3 remaining Seals.

Points Against This:

1. Possibility that the Ripple effect was local in nature: This is true that there is no evidence of a worldwide Ripple effect or any other reporting of in the book other than Faile and Co in the Shaido Camp. However, this does not neccessarily mean that it is not the Seals breaking causing the effect. Perhaps that part of Altara is already weak in the Pattern and this is one of the few locations where the Breaking of the Seals can be felt. We have already seen weaknesses in the Pattern in this part of the world. The effect the Bowl of the Wind had on the Pattern in Altara and then Perrin's ghost town in the same general area both point to this being a relative "hot spot" in the Pattern.

2. Ripple Effect was simply a Bubble of Evil: Again same as above and there is evidence to support this view but then it is not solid support that it could not be possible.

Therefore, assuming that the Three Seals are broken and the Bore has been completely reopened to the same size as during the War of Power, a couple of things could be true. Semi's attack on Rand and Co. could simply have been the Opening strike in the Last Battle and necessary (in Moridin's mind) to the Shadow succeeding. Afterall, this attack occurs after Moridin specifically forbids on pain of death any other Forsaken attempting to kill or harm Rand. I doubt Semirhage would disobey Moridin after finding out what happened to Mesaana. To quote: "That goes for all of you. Al'Thor is mine. You will not harm him in any way!" -Ch. 3 KoD. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. So it is very doubtful that Semirhage would attack Rand against Moridin's will. All the witnessing of ghosts, weakening of Wards, thinnesses in reality, bubbles of evil etc point to the DO's touch on the world massively increasing in KoD. It is logical to assume the Bore is much larger than it was before and the easiest way to enlarge the Bore is to destroy the remaining Seals.

You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please log in.

Comments

Tamyrlin: 2006-10-22

I hadn't ever considered that the ripple could have been more localized in nature. I thought we heard more mentions of ripples throughout the book, but taking a quick look, I could only find the reference to the ripples that Perrin felt, who would technically have been in the "local" vicinity. It is difficult to imagine that Moridin already had them all and that he broke them all at that moment, and that we only had two mentions of the ripples, which were local to the Aiel and Perrin. Why would the seals breaking create this ripple, if they hadn't in the past? As in, the Dark One had access to the world from the first four breaking, why would it cause such a potentially cataclysmic event? I would expect a "ripple" effect to occur when the first seal broke, not the last three.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-22

I agree with Tam on this one. The seals have already been weakened, etc. And also, the fact that it is local makes me think it doesn't have anything to do with the seals. If it had to do with the seals, then I think it would happen further up north. Because we see the effects of the blight occur up North and is strongly related to distance from Shayoul Ghul. And finally, if the seals had been broken, I think something more dramatic would have happened rather than Semirhage's plan to capture Rand. Maybe this is a bit chliched, but I always thought that once the time came, hords of trollocs would come rushing out of the blight and then Rand would go Shayoul Ghul, break the seals and fight the LB.

But if the seals were taken, then I would think that the DO's plan would be put in motion, even if the big move has not been made yet. So I agree it is possible, I just envisioned a bigger opening move than what Semirhage did. Rather, I think that the three tremors are signs that the DO is putting pressure on the pattern and that time is running very short for Rand. Not that he is completely free yet, because I think that would have an effect on the whole pattern. I agree that the Ghealdean is a weak area in the pattern, and I think the ripples being localized there shows that the DO does not have complete control yet.

Callandor: 2006-10-22

**The Three Ripples in the Pattern experienced by Faile and the rest of the inhabitants in the Shaido camp were the physical manifestation of the final 3 Seals breaking. Furthermore, due to this event the Last Battle has officially begun.**

The Last Battle is the actual battle between the forces. If you want to get specific about it, it's either the confrontation where Rand tries to reseal the Dark One's prison, or it's the confrontation that's been happening since the start of the books (and truly since the start of time in this world).

As well, why would there be ripples now, and not before with any of the other seals?

**However, Moridin's complacent attitude suggests that he already has the Seals in hand or that he is extremely confident he will have them soon.**

I don't really see over confidence there that you're claiming. He can be complacent because there are three seals now instead of all seven; added to that, the seals that remain are weak.

**Perhaps that part of Altara is already weak in the Pattern and this is one of the few locations where the Breaking of the Seals can be felt.**

This doesn't really make any sense. Again, why would there be ripples now when these seals break, and not any of the others? If you say that it's because these seals are the last ones and the Dark One is now free (the others didn't do it), then there should only be one ripple, since the first two broken are in the same boat as the other four that have been. Only the last seal broken should cause the effect, yet you say there would be three.

And why would the effects be in Altara? The only reference we have to any effects being felt that can only be felt at one spot in the world is Shayol Ghul, and that seems to be quite an obvious exception and unique to itself.

**We have already seen weaknesses in the Pattern in this part of the world. The effect the Bowl of the Wind had on the Pattern in Altara and then Perrin's ghost town in the same general area both point to this being a relative "hot spot" in the Pattern.**

The Bowl of the Winds didn't effect the Pattern; it made the One Power act strange in the area. As well, that was far southern Altara, not the northern mountainous Altara where the Shaido were.

You're going to have to be more specific with "ghost town." (though I think I know what you mean but best to be sure) Do you mean So Habor or were you refering to the town Mat saw that sank into the ground? In either case, I don't see how So Habor is any different to be considered a Pattern "hotspot" event or anything; and Mat's case is an advanced bubble of evil -- we've seen them referenced in Tear as well.

But the major flaw in this theory is very simple and just over looked here:

There were not three ripples -- there were actually six ripples.

There is the incident Faile experienced that you referenced, and then later on Perrin's experience:

**TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER 26 - As If the World Were Fog

"Suddenly, everything seemed to ripple in Perrin's sight. He felt himself ripple. Breane gave a cry and dropped the pitcher. The world rippled again, and Berelain clutched his arm. Tylee's hand seemed frozen in that odd gesture, thumb and forefinger forming a crescent. Everything rippled for a third time, and Perrin felt as if he were made of fog, as if the world were fog with a high wind coming. Berelain shuddered, and he put a comforting arm around her. She clung to him, trembling.**

They occured in two sets of three. So, either six seals have broken when only three remain, or it's something else than the seals.

So, we have two sets of three ripples occuring in the same general area (Faile's in Malden; Perrin's in his camp in Brytan which last I recall is about 40 miles away), and no where else, five days apart from each other.

The evidence clearly points to being localized so far. Whatever it was, it was not the seals breaking that caused the ripples.

terez: 2006-10-22

Callandor convinced me on this a long time ago, but I just now quit the faction. Though the faction might have been my fault in the first place, since I gave Davian encouragement. But Callandor's points are fairly unassailable here.

Ozymandias: 2006-10-22

Also, lets be realistic. I believe there was mention of some effect of the Bore actually widening under the Seals (I might have made that up lol). Either way its irrelevant. Should all the seals have broken, we would immediately know it... because the Dark One would be more or less rampaging through everything. We know that should the seals break, the Dark One will have as much or more influence than he ever did in the past at any point, which is power on an untold scale (regardless of how small a Bore it still is).

We know that Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions, in total a mightier channeling force than possibly the entire Black Tower, could barely, BARELY seal the Bore in the first place. Rand has no hope if all the Seals are broken... no, I believe that it is in the course of the Last Battle, at the final moment, that the final Seal breaks. I mean, if all the Seals are broken, the Dark One is free. So whats keeping him? Its not like he had to make his bed and clean his room before running off to pillage and pulverize the world... no, if the Seals we're broken we'd know it because everyone would be dead.

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-10-23

**There were not three ripples -- there were actually six ripples.**

That can't be proven Callandor. It seems that it is that far apart, but if you look at the way that RJ goes through time (in a mostly chronilogical order) he doesn't always. Some chapters go through one person, then a couple chapers later it goes to another character but goes back to the same moment that the other one was at (if that was confusing let me know lol).

This can be seen in Egwene's case in KoD when she is in the tower. He goes through the weeks in an interesting style.

BigBlade: 2006-10-23

No no no no, I havent even read KOD yet and I can plainly see that its the same ripples effecting different people. Its RJ talking about Failes ripple experience and Perrins seperate expereince with the same 3 ripples. Also, it could just be the DO pounding on door?

Tree Brother: 2006-10-23

Just a couple of thoughts.

A ripples could have been created by the DO. That is, the DO "stretched" and shattered the last three seals. And the stretching, or whatever caused the ripples. Or maybe not. I doubt the cause was the breakage -- because we would have seen the ripples earlier when the others broke. If the seals actually broke, they would be an effect, not a cause. (The physical seals are only representations of the actual seals, correct? Sort of like the ter'angreal access keys are not the s'angreal themselves? That is, the destruction of the real seals could cause the weakening/destruction of the disk ones)

2nd, I think the ripples felt be Perrin and the ripples felt by Faile are the same. Wherever the ripples originated from, they take time to travel. Not sure what direction Perrin is from Faile, but if Perrin's ripples happened after Faile's, that would give a general idea of direction of the epi-center.

Cholly: 2006-10-23

Yeah, I agree with Callie and Tam. The fact that there was six ripples kills this, added with everything else. Even if there was three, this dosen't work.

As far as I can see, Mordin always has that type of attitude. Not much support there either.

Anubis: 2006-10-24

**There is the incident Faile experienced that you referenced, and then later on Perrin's experience:**

How do you know these did not occur at the same time. (Or close to it if the ripples had a point of origin)

wooandwow: 2006-10-24

Isnt it more likerly Morridin could show such confidence because he knows just how breakable they are. Hence he is comfortable with not having them because they are constantly weakening.

Callandor: 2006-10-24

**That can't be proven Callandor. It seems that it is that far apart, but if you look at the way that RJ goes through time (in a mostly chronilogical order) he doesn't always. Some chapters go through one person, then a couple chapers later it goes to another character but goes back to the same moment that the other one was at (if that was confusing let me know lol).**

Yeah, ok, whatever you say. You're going to have to explain to me how you think it can't be proven they were separate ripples when the set that Perrin experiences occured again FIVE DAYS after the ones that Faile experienced. What's the idea here? Ripples of reality just travel slow?

(And, btw, we can know specifically that they are five days apart since Perrin kept track of every single day that Faile was captured, thanks to his knotting system. As well, we can work backwards from where their points merge again with Faile's rescue, or forwards from other events such as her capture, the Shaido settling in Malden, the moon cycle, other referenced events, etc. It's five days.)

**This can be seen in Egwene's case in KoD when she is in the tower. He goes through the weeks in an interesting style.**

Well, it's not. Again, we have a very specific chronology with Perrin and Faile, thanks to the knotting system in particular. If you still doubt, take a gander at the WoT Chronology:

Link

**No no no no, I havent even read KOD yet and I can plainly see that its the same ripples effecting different people. Its RJ talking about Failes ripple experience and Perrins seperate expereince with the same 3 ripples.**

Sorry to say, but if you had read Knife of Dreams, you'd realize that these are not the same ripples. They're five days separate from the ones Faile references.

**How do you know these did not occur at the same time. (Or close to it if the ripples had a point of origin)**

It seems everyone missed a very important part of my post:

**They occured in two sets of three. So, either six seals have broken when only three remain, or it's something else than the seals.

So, we have two sets of three ripples occuring in the same general area (Faile's in Malden; Perrin's in his camp in Brytan which last I recall is about 40 miles away), and no where else, five days apart from each other.**

JakOShadows: 2006-10-25

wooandwow:

That's a good point. It seems obvious now that you mention it, but it seems to make sense. Not to mention df's have infiltrated most of Rand's strongest allies, so Moridin could just be confident about the overall situation too. I know I would if I were him.

Balinor: 2006-10-25

**Also, lets be realistic. I believe there was mention of some effect of the Bore actually widening under the Seals (I might have made that up lol). Either way its irrelevant. Should all the seals have broken, we would immediately know it... because the Dark One would be more or less rampaging through everything. We know that should the seals break, the Dark One will have as much or more influence than he ever did in the past at any point, which is power on an untold scale (regardless of how small a Bore it still is).

We know that Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions, in total a mightier channeling force than possibly the entire Black Tower, could barely, BARELY seal the Bore in the first place. Rand has no hope if all the Seals are broken... no, I believe that it is in the course of the Last Battle, at the final moment, that the final Seal breaks. I mean, if all the Seals are broken, the Dark One is free. So whats keeping him? Its not like he had to make his bed and clean his room before running off to pillage and pulverize the world... no, if the Seals we're broken we'd know it because everyone would be dead. **

Whoa, whoa, you're really out on a limb here. The Bore is only a small pinhole in the Dark One's prison, not a gaping maw through which he can leap when the Final Seal breaks. The DO was still imprisoned in the Age of Legends, the Bore allowed him to "touch" Pattern and the world around him. But by no means was he free. If the DO was ever free in the AOL, then this story wouldn't exist. It would be game over. Obviously, the DO never had "power on an untold scale" through the Bore, or he would have easily defeated the Forces of Light in the AOL. Since that didn't happen, we must conclude that the DO's power is limited, even though the Bore exists.

As far as the theory goes, I have to agree with Callandor. Since Faile experiences the ripples in the Prologue, and we see Perrin's POV in the prologue (w/Galina), we can assume that those events happen at or close to the same time. (At least, that's what I assumed about the Prologue, that everything going on was happening at once, all over Randland.) Since Perrin doesn't experience the ripples until Chapter 26, after he's met with the Seanchan, I assumed that these were not the same ripples. In any event, these ripples may be tied to the Last Battle, most certainly to the DO in some way, but there is no evidence to connect them to the Seals. It seems to be a localized event in Ghealdan/Altara. (Perhaps it's due to strain on the Pattern from Demandred balefiring people out of existence?)

BrainFireBob: 2006-10-26

I must admit I'm in the "Perrin and Faile experienced the same three ripples" camp. Nothing indicates that these were two separate events in time.

Anubis: 2006-10-27

Ummmmmmmmmm Callandor could you just provide a timeline?

Something that gives a location and relative (to the other ripples) time?

I'm sure if you do that all the people you are yelling at about patterns in the ripples will be able to understand your point.

Callandor: 2006-10-27

**Ummmmmmmmmm Callandor could you just provide a timeline?

Something that gives a location and relative (to the other ripples) time?**

That is what I did, Anubis.

Faile is in Malden. Perrin is in Brytan. Last I recall -- and anyone else is more than welcome to get as certain as possible -- that's 40 miles appart.

The time apart the two instances of both ripples is FIVE DAYS. Look it up again at the link I gave for the WoT Chronology. Again, we have a very VERY firm timeline in Perrin's plot line since he kept track of all the days Faile was captured by the knott system he used. We can again work backwards from when the timelines meet up again and so forth.

It is a five day difference between them. It is two separate instances of these three ripples. That is six ripples, not three. That alone shows that it's not the seals breaking.

And then there's everything else.

Sampson: 2006-10-31

I do not think that the ripples were caused by the breaking of the seals. I always thought or felt that the shadow has a vested interest in keeping the last few seals whole. The seals are allowing the DO to work and do his thing and not have to worry about being re-sealed.

I just have the feeling that when it comes down to it, all the seals must be removed. It will be an eureka moment when Rand realizes this.

Rand finally realizes what he has to do to win.

He smiles, Moridin senses that Rand now knows what he has to do, Rand smashes the last seal in front of Moridin, then commences to remake the DOâ€™s prison like knew.

I do not really know what caused the ripples and why the people in Altara are the only people who felt it. If they were truly ripples, they would have continued to travel until they lost momentum. So you would have to assume at least one of the other characters would have felt and mentioned it.

As of now I am assuming it was a bubble of evil. But I am curious to what everybody thinks they were or what caused them if not the breaking of the seals.

I tend to believe what Callandor states, he does know his $hit and does his research. But to be honest, when reading KOD, I did assume they experienced the same ripples, it was just the way RJ wrote it.

I do not think we have had any two bubbles of evil that have been exactly the same, could be wrong though. So if it was 6 different ripples, why did they have the same characteristics?

Kubla Khan: 2006-11-01

Something I'm surprised no-one has mentioned yet...

Three seals remaining isnt the only inportant "three" remining. Has everyone forgotten thet there are three ta'veren on the loose? AND lets not forget that some of the forsaken (Ishy/moridin and lanfear/cyndane) have the ability to find ta'veren by searching the parrtern?

Doesn't it make sence to assume that this ripple was a search for Rand, Matt, and Perrin - after all later a huge trolloc attack found Rand dispite the fact he was hiding! Hey... woundnt that blow the "fain sent the trollocs" theory as well?. Let me know what you think.

Mindl: 2006-11-01

The only evidence for placing the "two" ripple events are when Faile thinks, "She had been a prisoner for less than two months, yet she could no longer recall exactly how many days ago she was captured." (KoD, ch. 5, p. 165) The ripple that Perrin feels is three days before they attack on the Shiado since he says right after the ripple that in three days she will be free. It was the morning of the 54th day since Faile had been captured as Perrin thinks on page 563. There is no way with this info to be sure that the event happened 5 days after or on the same day. Had Faile been more specific when she said "almost two months" it might be easier to tell. Is 49 days considered almost two months or is 54 days considered almost two months?

Callandor: 2006-11-01

**As of now I am assuming it was a bubble of evil. But I am curious to what everybody thinks they were or what caused them if not the breaking of the seals.**

No true idea. For sure not the seals, of course, but no set idea. I do like the idea of it simply being the Dark One "testing" things more, essentially making this a different form of is being done in Caemlyn and Tar Valon with the hallways. Question then potentially becomes, why is it localized?

Two bubbles of evil are of course options since it explains the locality of it somewhat, but not entirely, and I do dislike resting on just "Well, we haven't seen them anywhere else."

So really I'd say pretty much we only have enough information to exclude things now, instead of constructing what it is without some problems with those as well.

**Doesn't it make sence to assume that this ripple was a search for Rand, Matt, and Perrin - after all later a huge trolloc attack found Rand dispite the fact he was hiding! Hey... woundnt that blow the "fain sent the trollocs" theory as well?. Let me know what you think.**

Ta'veren have been found before (Rand by Ishamael and Lanfear, as well as other incidents). No ripples mentioned. It really wouldn't make much sense for Perrin and Faile and the ones around them to experience the ripples, but have Rand be located some how. Also, the Trolloc attack was three days after the ripples Faile experiences, and two days before Perrin's.

**There is no way with this info to be sure that the event happened 5 days after or on the same day. Had Faile been more specific when she said "almost two months" it might be easier to tell. Is 49 days considered almost two months or is 54 days considered almost two months?**

That's because there is more information than that. Again, using the for sure timeline we've gotten from Perrin's knotting, the meet up again with Perrin, the marker of the Cleansing, her beating from stealing the knife, and even down to things such as the cycle of the moon. It's five days between the two events.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-02

Kubla Khan:

It's a good idea, but there's one thing we would have to explain. I'm pretty sure Ishmael had used it before this, so why haven't the ripples been seen before. And then, why wouldn't have Rand and Mat felt them too.

Mindl:

Those are both very vague references to time there. So while there may be a connection, I don't think that alone can prove it. We would need see other characters have that same reaction. But it is still possible, even if it isn't provable.

xtremixt: 2006-11-07

The dark one is free, if you recall TSR, when Rand goes through the Glass Columns, we get a glipse of the AoL and, the moment the bore is being drilled. When the bore was drilled, the same rippling affect occured. This was the effect of the bore being opened then, and it is the same effect of the bore being opened now.

sogoloth: 2006-11-09

I agree w/ Callandor that this is not the seals. Too much evidence to the contrary. I also discount the "bubbles of evil" idea for 2 reasons:

1. These are 2 seperate events (I believe Call is correct in that regard as well) and we have never seen 2 bubbles do the same thing (doesn't make it impossible, but highly unlikely).

2. We haven't heard about bubbles of evil for awhile now. I can't remember which book was the last to mention them, but it was not recent.

I don't believe So Habor or the "ghost town" Matt came across were bubbles either. I like the idea that the DO is testing his strength, trying to push through the last seals on his prison. That would explain alot - the changing hallways Elayne and crew notices, the ripples, maybe even the "ghosts" people are seeing (such as in So Habor and the town Matt saw). But even those are not really connectable other than as oddities that have yet to be explained.

Something no one seems to have mentioned though. Why Faile? She is not important to the DO beyond a tool to get at Perrin. Yet these ripples revolve around Faile and Perrin, and Faile's was first. Could it be someone with Perrin is responsible? Perhaps one of the AS or a DF Ashaman? Not saying it was defenitly one of them, or even that Faile and Perrin were at the center of the events... though that does seem likely as their POV's were the only mention of these events. But I just find it curious that she should be the target of such a serious event, and I doubt it was mere coincidense. There must be a connection to someone both she and Perrin know IMO.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-10

Sogoloth:

The DO could have targeted them because they were the least focused. Mat has Tuon and is trying to protect her and get back to Rand. Where as Perrin stayed in one place so long just trying to save Faile. So the DO could have thought that he would be the weaker link somehow. Or it could also be that he tried Mat first, and now in KoD he tried to pick on Perrin as well. To be honest, I don't know.

Callandor: 2006-11-10

**When the bore was drilled, the same rippling affect occured. This was the effect of the bore being opened then, and it is the same effect of the bore being opened now.**

That was one ripple. Not six. Also, since the three seals are where Rand put them -- wherever that is, it's most certainly not with Faile or Perrin -- why would the ripples be in their location? Why not Shayol Ghul? If it's because it's world wide, how come no other effect is mentioned?

Saidar Haran: 2006-11-13

I agree that it is unlikely that the ripples were caused by the seals breaking, but the way it was written just made me think they were the same Ripples. Who knows? Maybe Ripples in the Pattern do travel slowly.

Lugh of the Vanth: 2006-11-13

I'm alittle confused on the timeline issue, so I won't add that in my comment. However, am I the only one who finds it interesting that after 11 books, where we've seen a resurgence of use of balefire, we now see a weakening of the pattern? The reaction to the ripples is described as "A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist." Almost like the very fiber of her existance has become weak.

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-11-15

**If it's because it's world wide, how come no other effect is mentioned?**

Assuming that it is six ripples (I'm still not sure that I believe that), would you really have wanted to read twelve more times that this ripple effect happened? Although it would stress the issue, it would have made the reading very monotonous to hear it that many times if it was worldwide. Kind of like the opening to every book. After reading it 4 or 5 times since the beginning, I skip over it now because it's the same thing. I skim through it to see if anything differs from how it was before, but other then that I don't pay much attention to it.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-15

***However, am I the only one who finds it interesting that after 11 books, where we've seen a resurgence of use of balefire, we now see a weakening of the pattern? The reaction to the ripples is described as "A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a mist." Almost like the very fiber of her existance has become weak.***

It could be the use of balefire. There just isn't much proof of it. But is quite a possibility. The only thing I have against it is that in the AoL, whole cities were destroyed with balefire and the world didn't end. So why would the small amount used in this instance cause those ripples.

***Assuming that it is six ripples (I'm still not sure that I believe that), would you really have wanted to read twelve more times that this ripple effect happened? Although it would stress the issue, it would have made the reading very monotonous to hear it that many times if it was worldwide. Kind of like the opening to every book. ***

You may get tired of reading it, but RJ has written whole chapters where Elayne is just taking a bath. If it were seen elsewhere, he probably would have written it in there. Unless he didn't want to write it in there, but to me if it is based off of the seals breaking, then it is essential to write all of the occurrences in.

A thought just occured to me though. Do any of ya'll think the eruption of dragonmount is related to this? Because if the wave moved slowly, it is possible that it started from the East and moved west in that time period. But we didn't see in Rand's pov(or anyone in his location) that they felt anything from dragonmount or like Perrin and Faile felt. I don't think it is provable by any chance, but I just wanted to see what ya'll think.

Callandor: 2006-11-15

**However, am I the only one who finds it interesting that after 11 books, where we've seen a resurgence of use of balefire, we now see a weakening of the pattern?**

No, you're not, but it's an exceptionally weak claim. Balefire is not on par with usage as it was in the Age of Legends. There, almost everyone was using it, on both sides. Here, it's mostly either Rand, two incidents with Moiraine, one with Nynaeve, a few spots with the Forsaken, and a few with the use of a ter'angreal that the Black Ajah have.

If one takes the time to count the incidents of balefire, I'd be surprised if it passed 100 for sure, maybe even under 50 in the entire series. And a few of those incidents didn't even kill people -- just destroyed objects (IE: like walls or doors).

**Assuming that it is six ripples (I'm still not sure that I believe that), would you really have wanted to read twelve more times that this ripple effect happened? Although it would stress the issue, it would have made the reading very monotonous to hear it that many times if it was worldwide.**

Right. Jordan is writting the books completely with my interests at hands -- not for the actual rules and course of his story.

It doesn't need to be repeated everywhere. Though, for such an important thing, I'd really like to hear a good reason why it wouldn't be. I mean we saw the Cleansing from multiple viewpoints of the same event because it was that important. Yes, Jordan said that he didn't feel it worked the best. However, he's not going to give a world-wide effect of such importance by only showing a local effect. I mean for crying out loud all he had to do was show Perrin and Faile (one or two incidents), and then one of say, Rand in Tear. Then we know for sure it's not local. He could toss in Nynaeve and Lan when he's dropped off in the Borderlands to truly show it's large impact. Was any of this done? No. Begs the question why, and more than implies that it was local effects.

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-11-19

So then if it was a local effect like you stated, then that would dismiss the theory that it could be the seals, Dragonmount, the pattern unraveling, or the DO having more of an effect on the pattern. That right there would mean that its effects are releated specifically to the events happening at Malden and the area surrounding, correct? So I see your point now Callandor.

That still begs the question of what exactly the ripple effect was though. Which we don't have enough evidence or proof or evidence of yet (as I think you've said before, unless I'm making things up).

Callandor: 2006-11-21

**That still begs the question of what exactly the ripple effect was though. Which we don't have enough evidence or proof or evidence of yet (as I think you've said before, unless I'm making things up).**

It's at a point where all we can do is shrug or scratch our heads, yes. It's similar to figuring out who killed Sahra Covenry.

greatwolf: 2006-11-27

perhaps the ripple effect is due to the DO-making the pattern unstable such that different sections of randland are experiencing different effects. i dont know if my idea comes across but i'm thinking the changes are like those seen when rooms change locations in caemlyn and the WT.If the pattern is loose, anything can happen:the whole of ebou dar may end up in the blight! or lightning shoot upwards!just a thought.

JakOShadows: 2006-11-28

greatwolf:

The only problem with that idea is that if it is solely based on the pattern being lose, I think we would see many more examples of things similar to that. I don't call the moving of a hallway or ghosts quite the same as a whole ripple in the pattern. We did see something close to it in Mat's pov, when the wagon and people get sucked into the ground. So I guess it possible, but it is definitely not proven yet. The big thing about it that gets me is that it is a wave across a large amount of the pattern, unlike any other incidences we've seen. It is definitely a unique event in my opinion.

Callandor: 2006-11-28

But the room changing and the ghosts and bugs and the season retention and the bubbles of evil and such effects that are obviously the effect of the Dark One are Randland-wide. (Well, to be fair the bubbles of evil aren't a direct effect like him chosing to do it at the time as far as we know, but he's the source of them ultimately.) The ripples were by all knowledge localized. Doesn't make sense for all other effects of his to be widespread, but this one localized.

greatwolf: 2006-12-01

Callandor,

No the effects cannot be said to be localized. you yourself pointed out earlier that there were six ripples rather than three and taken together with other events like the appearance of ghosts, the hallways changing location, the effects will be seen to be pretty much widespread infact, global.

Some of the other strange events that could be attributed to the DO may include the strange wind seen in various places and the crazy timelines all over randland since CoT.

Let's look back abit. The DO fixed the seasons in place(BTW, seasons' greeting everyone) as far back as TSR/TFoH. Almost a year in randland.And nothing has happened since then to lessen his power/reach. In fact he is even even stronger now counting the amount of chaos that has been sown and gennerated since then.Chaos, violence, panic and bloodshed have sprouted wings meanwhile esp. since LoC. What has he been doing with all that power? why didn't he respond to the OP blast when rand cleansed saidin?

Notice however that after the OP blast in WH,the timeframes of most parts of randland began to differ markedly. At first i thought it was an error(should've known better) but by KoD, we see elayne about 4months plus pregnant(at least 3 month/a trimester before the baby's heart starts beating)while faile has only been in captivity 2months and egwene just 2weeks or so.

Also events like the ghosts walking, the man who vomitted beatles are said by the AS to be due to the DO touching the world prior to TG. This is the effect that Moiraine feared as far back as TEoTW.

So the effects cant be described as localized except you consider them separate acts from different sources. The AS seem pretty convinced its the DO, and i feel we should accept their WORD unless you have compelling reason not to.

PS: Note that the seige of tear and the negotiations that have been dragging since WH, suddenly come to an end the very morning rand enters the city.

vardene: 2006-12-02

G.W, very interesting. wish i'd seen this when i read CoT, would've helped a lot!though what you're saying makes sense(to me though)but i wonder if the seals are already broken. since taim gave a seal to rand he could have laid it with a finder, inverted the weave and tied it off.it would him to wherever rand kept the other three and they'd be toast by now. He does not show much subservience to Moridin(ala his orders to kill rand) and the search for the seals was probably initiated by graendal who seems to be the only one of the forsaken with expertise at forging seals and documents(as seen in LoC).

All the effects described so far seem to do with the integrity of reality.Reality just isn't holding together. If balefire can reverse time, then the DO may also be able to accelerate and decelerate time.

JakOShadows: 2006-12-02

***Notice however that after the OP blast in WH,the timeframes of most parts of randland began to differ markedly. At first i thought it was an error(should've known better) but by KoD, we see elayne about 4months plus pregnant(at least 3 month/a trimester before the baby's heart starts beating)while faile has only been in captivity 2months and egwene just 2weeks or so.***

In some of those storylines, I always assumed that RJ just skipped ahead. Because otherwise, we would've had several more pages of Elayne and her baths, Perrin sitting on his butt and worrying about Faile, etc. So I don't if we can say for sure that time is moving differently in different places.

Callandor: 2006-12-02

**No the effects cannot be said to be localized. you yourself pointed out earlier that there were six ripples rather than three and taken together with other events like the appearance of ghosts, the hallways changing location, the effects will be seen to be pretty much widespread infact, global.**

It's a nice prediction that we'll see them be global in the next book, but there is no evidence of that now.

The ghosts are a global effect. We see them from multiple references all over Randland, from Mat to Perrin to Rand to Egwene, from all corners of Randland.

The sinking towns is another global effect since it was seen with Mat and then clear across Randland near Rand (as referenced by Verin).

The weather effects were clearly global.

The room changing is another widespread effect.

We know these are widespread because they are referenced repeatedly. Multiple sources, all over Randland, have the exact same things happening.

We don't have that with these ripples. It's localized to just Perrin and Faile (which truly is a local affair).

**The DO fixed the seasons in place(BTW, seasons' greeting everyone) as far back as TSR/TFoH.**

It's the obvious implication that the Dark One was also the one responsible for the longer winter season in The Eye of the World.

**Notice however that after the OP blast in WH,the timeframes of most parts of randland began to differ markedly.**

It's been going on for some time now. Here's a timeline to better show how they match up:

link.

But for example, Egwene and Perrin's timeline is only different with Perrin's being advanced three days further (746 to 749). Elayne's is 9 days past Perrin's, so 12 days past Egwene's. Mat's is a further five days past Elayne's, so 14 days past Perrin's, and 19 past Egwene's. Rand's timeline is one day behind Perrin's timeline, but Elayne also still senses him in the east in her view so you can count that as a continuation if you want.

**Also events like the ghosts walking, the man who vomitted beatles are said by the AS to be due to the DO touching the world prior to TG.**

Yes, they are. The beetles seem to be a bubble of evil, unless they were referenced to some other place as well.

**So the effects cant be described as localized except you consider them separate acts from different sources.**

Because again, it is a local area. Perrin is in the vacinity of Faile because he's working on rescuing her. She's not in Tarabon while he's away in Shienar. There within about 40-50 miles of each other. They are the only referenced action of these events. There's just no other references.

**PS: Note that the seige of tear and the negotiations that have been dragging since WH, suddenly come to an end the very morning rand enters the city.**

Yes, and? Rand's ta'veren, things like that happen a lot as we've seen. What's this have to do with the ripples?

greatwolf: 2006-12-03

Jos,

it just doesn't fit that way. plus there's the issue of ashaman getting older and the guy who threw up beetl;es went quite fast. The DO's been tryin to touch time all through, perhaps he may even succeed in breaking the wheel, that could make not only reality but time as well unstable.

greatwolf: 2006-12-11

Re: The Three Ripples

Callandor,

**It's a nice prediction that we'll see them be global in the next book, but there is no evidence of that now.

You clearly managed to evade the mainstay of my arguement: there are strange effects all over randland and its been postulated that the effects are due to the aftermath of balefire event. NO! trying to pin each effect to some local event is plain avoidism and illogical to boot.Moreover, the effects all happen to be attacks on the substance of reality itself.

**"She rippled! It was not imagination. Meira's blue eyes widened as far as they could go; she had felt it, too. Again everything rippled, including herself, harder than before. In shock, Faile stood up straight and let go of her robe. A third time the world rippled, harder still, and as it passed through her, she felt as if she might blow away in a breeze, or simply dissipate in a

mist." **

Notice that all these things are events which according to normal laws of nature are simply impossible. How do you move rooms around in a palace without people noticing? Reality itself is unfolding and nothing is stable at all. How does someone vomit beetles till there's nothing left of him? nothing multiplies that fast, not even bacteria. not unless the natural processes were speeded up somehow.The only place where all these things can be done simultaneously is to unravel the very fabric of the laws that the creator made to hold all together. In other words, ladies and gents, let the drums roll cos the DO has thrown the opening punches of wwIII!

We don't have that with these ripples. It's localized to just Perrin and Faile (which truly is a local affair)**

**It's the obvious implication that the Dark One was also the one responsible for the longer winter season in The Eye of the World.**

Thank you.

But for example, Egwene and Perrin's timeline is only different with Perrin's being advanced three days further (746 to 749). Elayne's is 9 days past Perrin's, so 12 days past Egwene's. Mat's is a further five days past Elayne's, so 14 days past Perrin's, and 19 past Egwene's. Rand's timeline is one day behind Perrin's timeline, but Elayne also still senses him in the east in her view so you can count that as a continuation if you want.

Only if you want to take them at face value. as i pointed out earlier elayne's pregnancy is too far advanced for those timelines to be of any value.

**Because again, it is a local area. Perrin is in the vacinity of Faile because he's working on rescuing her. She's not in Tarabon while he's away in Shienar. There within about 40-50 miles of each other. They are the only referenced action of these events. There's just no other references.**

You're trying to separate the ripple effects from the others. BTW, arguing that lack of reports makes it a localized thing is very weak. The ghosts were seen in only the south in CoT-mat's encounter and perrin's.But now its all over. if you admit its now widespread then you must know that this could be too. we just haven't heard it. how long do you want the man's books to be anyhow?

**Yes, and? Rand's ta'veren, things like that happen a lot as we've seen. What's this have to do with the ripples? **

--Guess.--

ilgross: 2006-12-13

If the three ripples were world wide would it be possible to find the source via triangulation?

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-12-15

greatwolf--

** **No the effects cannot be said to be localized. you yourself pointed out earlier that there were six ripples rather than three and taken together with other events like the appearance of ghosts, the hallways changing location, the effects will be seen to be pretty much widespread infact, global.**

It's a nice prediction that we'll see them be global in the next book, but there is no evidence of that now.

The ghosts are a global effect. We see them from multiple references all over Randland, from Mat to Perrin to Rand to Egwene, from all corners of Randland.

The sinking towns is another global effect since it was seen with Mat and then clear across Randland near Rand (as referenced by Verin).

The weather effects were clearly global.

The room changing is another widespread effect.

We know these are widespread because they are referenced repeatedly. Multiple sources, all over Randland, have the exact same things happening.

We don't have that with these ripples. It's localized to just Perrin and Faile (which truly is a local affair).

You clearly managed to evade the mainstay of my arguement: there are strange effects all over randland and its been postulated that the effects are due to the aftermath of balefire event. NO! trying to pin each effect to some local event is plain avoidism and illogical to boot.Moreover, the effects all happen to be attacks on the substance of reality itself.**

Re-read that. He is not avoiding it. He stated very clearly that there ARE global effects all around randland, and never questions whether or not it's due to balefire. What he DOES state is that the ripple effect, at this point in time, is localized, because it is not seen anywhere else.

If you read all of that, he certaintly covered the fact that there are strange effects all over.

Callandor: 2006-12-16

**You clearly managed to evade the mainstay of my arguement: there are strange effects all over randland and its been postulated that the effects are due to the aftermath of balefire event. NO! trying to pin each effect to some local event is plain avoidism and illogical to boot.Moreover, the effects all happen to be attacks on the substance of reality itself.**

What exactly are you even saying here?

Again, the ripples only are referenced to occur in an area that is around 50 miles or so. No where else. Other effects that are obviously the Dark One's doing are global, yes. But this isn't. There's no reference for it. You can't simply stipulate that this is a global effect because others are. All the others have been acknowledged as global effects. Again, you may think that we'll be shown in the next book that it is a global effect, but that is just your prediction. It is not a fact.

**Notice that all these things are events which according to normal laws of nature are simply impossible.**

Yes, they are. Again, that's all without question. But just because those are global, and the Dark One's doing, does not mean that the ripples are both the Dark One's doing and global. They more than likely are at this point the Dark One's doing (since it's really the only explanation that fits) -- but that does not make it a global effect just "because." Again, all the others are repeatedly referenced, from multiple sources, all over Randland of the same effects. Perrin and Faile are the only ones to make mention of the ripples, and they're in the same relative area. There was plenty of space to mention ripples in the comments of the other effects of the Dark One with Rand, Egwene, Elayne, Mat, etc.'s chapters. But there was nothing. As our knowledge stands, this was a local event, only.

**Only if you want to take them at face value. as i pointed out earlier elayne's pregnancy is too far advanced for those timelines to be of any value.**

What does this have anything to do with what is being discussed? Not all timelines are on the exact same day. Egwene's ends the earliest on day 746. Rand's ends next earliest on 748. Perrin and Faile's ends the next day on 749. Elayne's ends next at 758. Mat's ends last at 761 (with Tuon's ending at some later unknown as of now date).

What is your point here except to show that the timelines are not all chronological and don't all end on the same date? That's well known. If that's it, congrats for cluing in. Now back to actual discussion.

**You're trying to separate the ripple effects from the others. BTW, arguing that lack of reports makes it a localized thing is very weak. The ghosts were seen in only the south in CoT-mat's encounter and perrin's.But now its all over. if you admit its now widespread then you must know that this could be too. we just haven't heard it. how long do you want the man's books to be anyhow?**

You're doing nothing but repeating exactly what I've been saying. Look at what I actually said:

**It's a nice prediction that we'll see them be global in the next book, but there is no evidence of that now.

The ghosts are a global effect. We see them from multiple references all over Randland, from Mat to Perrin to Rand to Egwene, from all corners of Randland.

The sinking towns is another global effect since it was seen with Mat and then clear across Randland near Rand (as referenced by Verin).

The weather effects were clearly global.

The room changing is another widespread effect.

We know these are widespread because they are referenced repeatedly. Multiple sources, all over Randland, have the exact same things happening.

We don't have that with these ripples. It's localized to just Perrin and Faile (which truly is a local affair).**

You want to predict that they'll be shown to be global in the next book, go nuts. But you're saying that they are global now, which is just false by what we know. You're predictions and suppositions are not evidence.

As well, the ghosts were not seen in "just the south" in Crossroads. They were seen in Perrin's plotline, Mat's plotline, Elayne's plotline, and in the Prologue in Cairhien. That's a global effect; multiple reports, all over Randland, from different people, all of the same thing.

That is not what we have of the ripples.

As for how long I want the books to be, as long as they possibly can be. I love this series and want all the information Jordan can pack into them.

****Yes, and? Rand's ta'veren, things like that happen a lot as we've seen. What's this have to do with the ripples? **

--Guess.--**

You're going to need to clarify this, since it just seems like you left some stuff out. Unless you're saying it was just a guess.

greatwolf: 2006-12-20

If the seals were broken Moridin and the rest would probably know as they frequent S.G. However, its rather troublesome explaining how the DO seems to be getting stronger inspite of the remaining 3seals. Already it seems he has touched the world more than he did in the AOL. This may be the forsaken drilling more patches into his cell(prison).Perhaps the same thing they were about to do when LT and the companions caught them.It may be also that Taim planted the seal on rand with a finder in order to lead him to where the others are hidden. It could even give a motive for semi's capture.she works withn him and not with Moridin. i can bet you Mat's foxhead their(demand, semi and mesaana's top priority now is to get rid of naeblis). Getting the seals might be a step in that direction.

Callandor,

**Notice that all these things are events which according to normal laws of nature are simply impossible.**

Yes, they are. Again, that's all without question.***

How does a a town sinking into the ground obey normal physical laws? or rooms suddenly changing location? or ghosts? the dead should remain dead not go trapsing about all over the places. People suddenly becoming insubstantial isn't normal either. An effect that occurs over a fifty mile radius maybe more than any of the forsaken can manage.Not without callandor(no pun here,old boy)or choedan kal(CK). They occur the the same region the ghost effect was first seen. (which later became global). By elimination it has to be the DO like the other effects, that's what i'm saying. balefire quite unlikely.

** we just haven't heard it. how long do you want the man's books to be anyhow.

As for how long I want the books to be, as long as they possibly can be. I love this series and want all the information Jordan can pack into them.**

I'd prefer he finish it and start something else.Its not how long but how well..

Callandor: 2006-12-21

**However, its rather troublesome explaining how the DO seems to be getting stronger inspite of the remaining 3seals. Already it seems he has touched the world more than he did in the AOL.**

"Seems" being the operative word.

**How does a a town sinking into the ground obey normal physical laws? or rooms suddenly changing location? or ghosts?**

If you notice, I was saying that they are against the "rules." That's probably why you should quote people in context. You're trying to push the idea that because the Dark One is doing weird some things on a global level, that anything that pops that's strange is the Dark One and must be global in effect. The Dark One is quite a likely source for what occured with the ripples -- but it does not mean that it's a global effect if he's responsible for it.

**By elimination it has to be the DO like the other effects, that's what i'm saying.**

You're saying that and going a step further. I'll break it down for you again:

1. The ghosts, the corruption, the rooms changing, the weather, etc. -- all obviously the Dark One and global effects. All of these effects do "break" the normal rules of Randland (though many of them are more just stretching them to or maybe a bit past their usual "limits"). All more than known.

2. The ripples -- could very well be the Dark One, but it's unknown at this point.

3. The only references we have is that it's a local effect. You can predict that it is a global effect, and maybe you'll be shown to be right in the next book -- but we have nothing to support that now.

What you're trying to say is that because the Dark One has done the effects of number 1, that he's behind the ripples -- and therefore the ripples are also global in nature.

The Dark One might be behind the ripples. It seems he's really the only likely candidate at this point to be the cause of it. But just because he might be doing these ripples, does not make them a global event. He can be focusing the effect in just that area (for whatever reason).

JakOShadows: 2006-12-22

greatwolf:

Yes, those effects don't obey the normal physical laws of nature, but they have been seen all over the Westlands. Therefore, we can assume that they are a global effect so far. The reason the ripples in the pattern are such a mystery as to the nature of the effect, is that it has only been seen on the local scale. All the instances being mentioned are out of the ordinary, but all of them except the ripples have been seen in vastly different regions and locations throughout the books. That is why that cannot be solidly connected to the global effects of the DO or the coming of TG.

Davian93: 2006-12-26

****It's at a point where all we can do is shrug or scratch our heads, yes. It's similar to figuring out who killed Sahra Covenry. ****

Not exactly Callandor. Unlike the death of a novice from the Tower, the Ripples most likely have a significance to the Pattern. Think about it, two major characters witness the Pattern essentially unraveling and existance as they know it thinning as if the world were fog so to speak. This is definitely an effect caused by the Dark One, not a bubble of evil. As to the location of the ripples, I have no idea as to why it happened in Altara. The timeline itself is not as strong as you make it either, due to the overall weakening/loosening of the Pattern.

Callandor: 2006-12-29

**Not exactly Callandor. Unlike the death of a novice from the Tower, the Ripples most likely have a significance to the Pattern. Think about it, two major characters witness the Pattern essentially unraveling and existance as they know it thinning as if the world were fog so to speak. This is definitely an effect caused by the Dark One, not a bubble of evil. As to the location of the ripples, I have no idea as to why it happened in Altara. The timeline itself is not as strong as you make it either, due to the overall weakening/loosening of the Pattern.**

1. My point didn't bare at all on "importance" of the events. Sahra's death was important in some sense because we saw it.

2. Again, I've stated before that the Dark One is the most likely candidate -- but that is again most likely. Nothing is known other than "Something weird happened, and most likely the Dark One is the cause of it since most weird things are these days." That's a more specific version of shrugging your shoulders.

3. I really wish people would stop with the over-emphasis on the "weakening of the Pattern." The timeline is not as strong because of this? Show me how that works. Yeah, the Pattern's weakening. But we're given a specific timeline that we're shown. Very specific. Exceptionally specific. Saying the weakening of the Pattern has any bearing on time is just a cop out, for whatever reason. It's a pretty general division but simple: the Wheel = time; the Pattern = reality. The Dark One is effecting the Pattern.

Davian93: 2006-12-31

I don't think it is an over emphasis of the weakening of the Pattern though Callandor. The ability of the DO to loosen the Pattern is a major factor in the Last Battle. The Pattern needs to be strong for Rand to win.

Callandor: 2007-01-01

**I don't think it is an over emphasis of the weakening of the Pattern though Callandor. The ability of the DO to loosen the Pattern is a major factor in the Last Battle. The Pattern needs to be strong for Rand to win.**

Davian, your argument for why the timeline isn't so strong is because "the Pattern is weakening." Yeah, strange things are happening -- but it's a ludicrous idea. That's the point of saying I wish people would stop the over-emphasis on the Pattern weakening. You're trying to use it for cover to a major flaw with this theory. That's quite and over-emphasis.

(And even a fleeting idea that Rand isn't going to win the Last Battle is ludicrous itself at this point, so that goes no where as well.)

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-02

I don't think the ripples were caused by the seals breaking. In The World of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time, when Lanfear drilled the Bore, it sent ripples of shock through the Pattern. And, when Rand was in that Aiel city, one of the things he saw was the Bore being drilled, and the effect was the same as what Perrin and Faile experienced. When the other Seals broke, there were no ripples, so I don't think these were caused by the seals breaking, I think it was caused by a new Bore being drilled.

Davian93: 2007-01-05

***(And even a fleeting idea that Rand isn't going to win the Last Battle is ludicrous itself at this point, so that goes no where as well.) ***

Of course he's gonna win, it is a novel afterall and RJ likes happy endings. It might be more difficult than it should be if the Pattern continues weakening.

Even if the 3 ripples weren't caused specifically by the 3 seals breaking, they seem to have a startling similarity to Lanfear drilling the Bore. While I don't believe a new Bore has been drilled, a widening of the current one is definitely possible. We know it has been widening since the first Seal broke. We also know it widened throughout the course of the War of Power.

vardene: 2007-01-05

Myrelle, or the DO breaking loose?

Catalyst: 2007-01-06

A new Bore being drilled? Quite a statement, and extremely dangerous for the World, if it is proven true.

Or maybe the Bore simply became bigger (with three inches :)).

And a thought came to me. Lanfear drilled into the DO's prison, so probably she knows how to bring it back in it's first undamaged condition. And if I remember correctly, she and Moiraine spent quite a lot of time together in the Finnlands. Maybe the knowledge of this is the reason why Rand (by Min's vision) would fail without a woman long "dead" and "gone". Moiraine wrung the knowledge out of Lanfear, but as Cyndane she doesn't remember the torture. Speculations only.

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-07

I don't know why everyone thinks that when the last seal breaks, either the dark one will reach out and touch the world [he's already doing that] or else he will break free. I nthe War of the Shadow, the Bore was open for 300 years, [or else it was 10, help me out someone] and the DO didn't break free, so why will he be able to now, unless new Bores are being drilled?

vardene: 2007-01-08

*** I don't know why everyone thinks that when the last seal breaks, either the dark one will reach out and touch the world [he's already doing that] or else he will break free. I nthe War of the Shadow, the Bore was open for 300 years, [or else it was 10, help me out someone] and the DO didn't break free, so why will he be able to now, unless new Bores are being drilled?***

the karaethon cycle predicts the DO breaking free but no specific quote that the seals would break first. perhaps its part of the KP or just the assumption by ASedai.

Davian93: 2007-01-08

A little over a 100 with the War of Power taking place in the final 10 years it was open.

Anubis: 2007-01-12

**the karaethon cycle predicts the DO breaking free but no specific quote that the seals would break first. perhaps its part of the KP or just the assumption by ASedai.**

He can't break free while the seals are intact. Even if they are the equivalent of a wall made of paper to him he still has to go through said wall.

Davian93: 2007-01-14

****He can't break free while the seals are intact. Even if they are the equivalent of a wall made of paper to him he still has to go through said wall. ****

Major thing people tend to forget. The DO was not free even without the Seals in place. He could touch the world, not walk freely in it. The Seals cover over what is essentially the bunghole in a keg. Without them in place he can stick his hand through and manipulate things but cannot still leave the keg/barrel. So even if and when Rand breaks the last 3 Seals, the DO will not be free. Breaking the seals is merely a step on the path of freeing the DO.

Marie Curie 7: 2007-01-17

Callandor:

*** That was one ripple. Not six. Also, since the three seals are where Rand put them -- wherever that is, it's most certainly not with Faile or Perrin -- why would the ripples be in their location? Why not Shayol Ghul? If it's because it's world wide, how come no other effect is mentioned? ***

The effect observed by Rand's ancestor when the Bore was drilled seems to be multiple ripples (spreading waves) - see the quote below. I don't think the ripples that Faile and Perrin experience in KoD correspond to the last three the Seals breaking, though. The timing, as Callandor pointed out, makes it pretty clear that there really were six ripples.

Myrelle:

*** I don't think the ripples were caused by the seals breaking. In The World of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time, when Lanfear drilled the Bore, it sent ripples of shock through the Pattern. And, when Rand was in that Aiel city, one of the things he saw was the Bore being drilled, and the effect was the same as what Perrin and Faile experienced. When the other Seals broke, there were no ripples, so I don't think these were caused by the seals breaking, I think it was caused by a new Bore being drilled. ***

Though I don't believe that the ripples correspond to a new drilling of the Bore, I did make the same connection that Myrelle did in realizing that the descriptions of the ripples are similar (and xtremixt noted this earlier as well).

Here's the section from Rand's trip through the glass columns of Rhuidean, when he sees the Bore being drilled through the eyes of his ancestor:

----

TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated

The man opened his mouth to protest - citizens always did; they seemed to think Aiel were made of spinglass - but before he could speak, the ground rippled under their feet. The air rippled, too, in spreading waves. The man looked about uncertainly, pulling his stylish fancloth cloak around himself and his lady so their heads seemed to float disembodied. "What is it, Da'shain?"

Others who had seen Charn's hair were gathering around him anxiously asking the same questions, but he ignored them, not even thinking of whether he was being rude. He actually began to push through the crowd, his eyes fixed on the Sharom; the white sphere, a thousand feet in diameter, floated as high above the blue and silver domes of the Collam Daan.

Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves. What men and women could do united would be even greater now that there would be no differences. And today she and Beidomon would tap it for the first time - the last time men and women would work together wielding a different Power. Today.

What seemed a tiny chip of white spun away from the Sharom in a jet of black fire; it descended, deceptively slow, insignificant. Then a hundred gouts spurted everywhere around the huge white sphere. The Sharom broke apart like an egg and began to drift down, falling, an obsidian inferno. Darkness spread across the sky, swallowing the sun in unnatural night, as if the light of those flames was blackness. People were screaming, screaming everywhere.

----

Notice that the air and ground rippled before Charn saw the Sharom break apart. He feels the ripples, then looks towards the Sharom, and only then sees the first tiny piece of it break away. I originally thought that the ripples that Charn experienced corresponded to a shock wave caused by the Sharom crashing down. However, the ripples can't be due to a shock wave from the Sharom's destruction, since that shock wave would have been felt after he saw the Sharom break apart.

The ripples that Charn felt therefore must be a different sort of "shock wave". A quote from the BWB makes it even clearer what the source of the ripples that Charn felt were, and bears out that it was a kind of shock wave:

----

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time

CHAPTER: 4 - The Fall into Shadow

One team of researchers at the Collam Daan, including in their number Mierin Eronaile and Beidomon, both Aes Sedai, believed they had actually found that source. (There seem to have been other members of the team, but their names have not survived. The record also does not tell Mierin's position on the team, though at least one source does mention Beidomon as "assisting her".)

They had discovered a thin place in the Pattern that appeared to cover an undivided source of the One Power separate from the True Source. This energy did not appear to follow the conventional restrictions of the Power, in that it gave indications of being usable by men and women equally. Such a source, available without limitations, would allow men and women to unite in ways previously impossible. Aes Sedai would be able to perform feats well beyond existing capabilities. It was apparently inaccessible by the means used for the One Power, but they had only to bore a small hole in the Pattern to tap it. Using the One Power, in what was, they hoped, the last time saidin and saidar would be separated, Mierin and the team bored through to the source of the unusual Power emanations.

The resulting backlash destroyed the floating Sharom, shattering it like the egg it resembled, and creating ripples in the fabric of reality as shock waves from the breach shook the Pattern. It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison. The hole they created has been ever after known as the Bore.

---

There is no indication from Charn's point of view in the TSR quote that he rippled or that he felt like he was "turning to mist" as was noted in both Perrin's and Faile's points of view. This must be simply because RJ didn't write the Charn scene in as much detail as the later KoD scenes, because the BWB clearly equates ripples in the fabric of reality with the shock waves caused by the breach in the Pattern when the Bore was drilled.

There is no direct statement in the books that the ripples experienced by Perrin and Faile were caused by the Dark One. However, based on the similarity of the ripples that occurred during the drilling of the Bore, and also because we know of no other force besides the Creator that could affect reality in that way ("as if the world were fog with a high wind coming"), the probability is pretty high that the ripples in KoD were caused by the Dark One. Not certain, of course, but probable.

Why were the ripples localized in a part of Altara? We don't know the reason for sure. But we can make a comparison with the bubbles of evil. While bubbles of evil have been experienced all over Randland, each one is localized in a specific region. Moiraine has said that the bubbles of evil rise up from the Dark One's prison and drift along the Pattern until they burst. A similar process can explain the localization of the ripples. Think of a fracture pattern of tiny cracks in the Seals of the Dark One's prison. If the Dark One pounds on the prison door, some of those cracks are going to widen just a little bit. The specific crack that widens is going to dictate where the ripples are felt.

In the case of Perrin's and Faile's ripples, the shock waves were not from a total breach in the fabric of reality as a result of the breaking of the last Seals or the drilling of a new Bore. Perhaps that's why there are only three ripples in each KoD incident - it's a weaker effect - a stretching, maybe, as opposed to a breach. The ripples are a result of a distortion of the fabric of reality due to the Dark One's ever increasing ability to touch the world through the weakening Seals.

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-18

* **the karaethon cycle predicts the DO breaking free but no specific quote that the seals would break first. perhaps its part of the KP or just the assumption by ASedai.***

Where in the Prophecies does it say that the DO will break free? It says the DO will touch the world, but it does NOT say he will break free.

Davian93: 2007-01-22

****In the case of Perrin's and Faile's ripples, the shock waves were not from a total breach in the fabric of reality as a result of the breaking of the last Seals or the drilling of a new Bore. Perhaps that's why there are only three ripples in each KoD incident - it's a weaker effect - a stretching, maybe, as opposed to a breach. The ripples are a result of a distortion of the fabric of reality due to the Dark One's ever increasing ability to touch the world through the weakening Seals.****

It's still a big coincidence that there were 3 ripples and 3 Seals remaining. Even if the 2 sets of 3 ripples were several days apart the coincidence is still there. Almost as if the DO is knocking at the door and in the process of breaking free. Kinda like when a door is still lockd but you can force it open a little bit when you slam into it. That coulc cause the ripples.

Callandor: 2007-01-25

**It's still a big coincidence that there were 3 ripples and 3 Seals remaining.**

Maybe. So, what? It's obvious that the seals were not the cause of the ripples. If so, these effects should've been seen with the other seals being broken, and for other reasons already stated.

**Even if the 2 sets of 3 ripples were several days apart the coincidence is still there.**

Only if you try to phrase it that way. Try this: six ripples, days apart, in roughly the same geographic area. Where's the coincidence that there are three seals left?

Aemon: 2007-01-31

Although I am undecided on this whole issue I would like to point out that we have seen this effect before and in the general area. TEOTW Chap 26 Whitebridge Rand looking at whitbridge 'For an instant it seemed to Rand that a showdow Rippled through the milk-white structure.' Now this may be something all together different. But i find it intriguing that he used the same phrasing and that it happened in the same general area as where Faile and Perrin are. (So Harbor in Northern Altura is very close to Whitbridge.)

Gandelail: 2007-02-03

**It's still a big coincidence that there were 3 ripples and 3 Seals remaining.**

There are also 3 ta'veren, 3 oaths for the aes sedai, 3 questions or gifts in the twisted redstone doors, 3 constants to each possible world (DO, Creator, TAR), 3 women in love with/loved by Rand... the list goes on and on. IF there is a coincidence between 3 seals and 3 ripples (which I would call 6 ripples) then perhaps each ta'veren sneezed, in succession, somewhere in the world, or perhaps an aes sedai successfully broke through each oath. Some people might say there are 2 sets of 3 ripples, perhaps this happens when someone asks the wrong questions in the tear door, and wants the wrong gifts from the other...

yeah, it's a big coincidence that there are 3 seals and 3(6) ripples. But when has this series been found lacking in big coincidences?

Gandelail: 2007-02-03

The last of my posts should have ended with the text:

"Just because it's a big coincidence doesn't mean it's more than coincidence. You can have coincidence without significance."

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-05

Aemon:

***Although I am undecided on this whole issue I would like to point out that we have seen this effect before and in the general area. TEOTW Chap 26 Whitebridge Rand looking at whitbridge 'For an instant it seemed to Rand that a showdow Rippled through the milk-white structure.' Now this may be something all together different. But i find it intriguing that he used the same phrasing and that it happened in the same general area as where Faile and Perrin are. (So Harbor in Northern Altura is very close to Whitbridge.)***

Here's the full quote:

-----

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 26 - Whitebridge

The White Bridge arched high over the wide waters, twice as high as the Spray's mast and more, and from end to end it gleamed milky white in the sunlight, gathering the light until it seemed to glow. Spidery piers of the same stuff plunged into the strong currents, appearing too frail to support the weight and width of the bridge. It looked all of one piece, as if it had been carved from a single stone or molded by a giant's hand, broad and tall, leaping the river with an airy grace that almost made the eye forget its size. All in all it dwarfed the town that sprawled about its foot on the east bank, though Whitebridge was larger by far than Emond's Field, with houses of stone and brick as tall as those in Taren Ferry and wooden docks like thin fingers sticking out into the river. Small boats dotted the Arinelle thickly, fishermen hauling their nets. And over it all the White Bridge towered and shone.

"It looks like glass," Rand said to no one in particular.

Captain Domon paused behind him and tucked his thumbs behind his broad belt. "Nay, lad. Whatever it be, it no be glass. Never so hard the rains come, it no be slippery, and the best chisel and the strongest arm no make a mark on it."

"A remnant from the Age of Legends," Thom said. "I have always thought it must be."

The captain gave a dour grunt. "Mayhap. But still useful despite. Could be someone else built it. Does no have to be Aes Sedai work, Fortune prick me. It no has to be so old as all that. Put your back into it, you bloody fool!" He hurried off down the deck.

Rand stared even more wonderingly. From the Age of Legends. Made by Aes Sedai, then. That was why Captain Domon felt the way he did, for all his talk about the wonder and strangeness of the world. Aes Sedai work. One thing to hear about it, another to see it, and touch it. You know that, don't you? For an instant it seemed to Rand that a shadow rippled through the milk-white structure. He pulled his eyes away, to the docks coming nearer, but the bridge still loomed in the corner of his vision.

-----

It seems to me that the Whitebridge incident corresponds to an entirely different effect than the ripples that Faile and Perrin experienced. Notice that it says that a shadow rippled through the structure. If it were similar to Faile's and Perrin's experiences, it would have said that the bridge itself rippled. And the passage also doesn't say anything about Rand feeling the ripples at Whitebridge in the same way that Faile and Perrin did.

What caused the shadow that rippled through the bridge? We don't know. But notice earlier in the quoted passage that the bridge seemed to glow in the sunlight. The shadow could simply be due to a cloud passing over. And it provides a useful literary device to highlight the feelings that Rand has about Aes Sedai right before that, based on his recent experiences with Aes Sedai and the One Power and perhaps foreshadowing events to come.

Deathguard-Watch: 2007-02-18

The Bore is not actually where the Dark One is, it's where the pattern is thinnest, so effects would not have to originate from that point. I'm not sure Altara is a weaker area in the Pattern, but judging from the rest of the world, everything's pretty weak.

~~The timing and amount~~

Go to a lake and huck a rock in. Look at the ripples formed. There's more than one. Also, they take time to travel. So the "six ripples" could be cause by just one tapping of the DO's finger so to speak.

~~Balefire~~

If you have a piece of cloth, and take out threads from it, but continue to use it, it will continue to get weaker. Take some more threads out later on, and since the cloth was weaker from both the removal of the original threads and the continuing time set, the effect will be of a higher magnitude. If you don't get that analogy, sorry....

JakOShadows: 2007-02-20

deathwatch guard:

that is all well and good, but where were the ripples that started the ripples in Altara. And as for balefire, that may be the case, but there is nothing that can directly attribute it to that. So just explaining how it could happen, isn't proving that that is what happened. You see what I mean. Everyone here agrees that those two things are possible, but people are arguing against because there is not proof for it. As far as I can tell, there isn't enough evidence to know what caused it.

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-20

Deathguard-Watch:
*** The Bore is not actually where the Dark One is, it's where the pattern is thinnest, so effects would not have to originate from that point. I'm not sure Altara is a weaker area in the Pattern, but judging from the rest of the world, everything's pretty weak. ***

Shayol Ghul is still the one place where one can go to "bath in the Dark One's presence." However, it is true that the effects of the Dark One are being felt world wide now. The bubbles of evil, for example, have shown up in a variety of locations. And the effects on the weather have been felt across Randland. So, ripples in the fabric of reality showing up around Malden is not necessarily surprising.

*** Go to a lake and huck a rock in. Look at the ripples formed. There's more than one. Also, they take time to travel. So the "six ripples" could be cause by just one tapping of the DO's finger so to speak. ***

Not quite -- there were have to be two finger tappings. If you throw a rock in a lake, you don't get three ripples, then a big gap, and then three more ripples. The ripples move outward from the rock in concentric circles spaced roughly evenly in time. In the KoD incident, Faile feels three ripples first, a few seconds apart. Then, five days later, Perrin feels three ripples, again a few seconds apart. If the six ripples were to come from the same "rock" being thrown, so to speak, then ripples would have been felt continuously for those five days. So, the ripples have to originate from two separate incidents.

*** If you have a piece of cloth, and take out threads from it, but continue to use it, it will continue to get weaker. Take some more threads out later on, and since the cloth was weaker from both the removal of the original threads and the continuing time set, the effect will be of a higher magnitude. If you don't get that analogy, sorry.... ***

I don't understand what your balefire comments are specifically in reference to. If you are suggesting that balefire is the cause of the ripples, from what we have seen balefire has not been used at a level that is even a tiny fraction of the magnitude at which it was used during in the War of the Shadow. Then, whole cities were destroyed with balefire before its use was curtailed. But perhaps you can elaborate.

greatwolf: 2007-04-21

It's been going on for some time now. Here's a timeline to better show how they match up:

link.

Unfortunately, i haven't seen callandor around these parts for a while now, but i thought i still needed to reply this.

Looking closely at the chronicles page(and they did a good job BTW), you'll find that Ely went to see the borderland king 7days after meeting rand. This should be 10days at least, but wonder of wonders, elyane already knows she's pregnant a week after her first time! Even worse, the whole palace knows about it.

Has RJ ever authenticated the site and contents?

More to the point, i tried to link all the "strange" occurences as one and that is what i said was global. There are strange things happening everywhere. The ghosts though, were first seen at so habor by perrin's group about the time of the cleansing. Since the locals must have being seeing it awhile back, it does suggest that the entire thing may have been building up slowly. The darkhounds had been too. It may all just have been partb of the DO "flexing". The ripples may have come as three for each seal broken too.

drisco: 2010-05-07

Wow! Before I read this I had always thought that there were only 3 ripples, they were world wide and that the cause of them was Rand's cleansing of Saidin.

fbcaptain34: 2011-10-08

I felt the need to coment here, since this is a very old theory, that the same ripple effects are described when Rand Balefires Natrin's barrow in the gathering storm; and that the use of balefire somewhere in altara at this time needs to be investigated.

Theoryland of the Wheel of Time

hardcore fan freaks of the wheel of time

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

The Bell Tolls

Theoryland Community

Theoryland Tweets

Theories

Recent Comments

Recent Theories

Home | Index | Archives | Help

he Three Ripples

by Davian93: 2006-07-05 | 4 out of 10 (8 votes)

Recent Categories: The Ripples

Comments

Tamyrlin: 2006-10-22

JakOShadows: 2006-10-22

Callandor: 2006-10-22

terez: 2006-10-22

Ozymandias: 2006-10-22

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-10-23

BigBlade: 2006-10-23

Tree Brother: 2006-10-23

Cholly: 2006-10-23

Anubis: 2006-10-24

wooandwow: 2006-10-24

Callandor: 2006-10-24

JakOShadows: 2006-10-25

Balinor: 2006-10-25

BrainFireBob: 2006-10-26

Anubis: 2006-10-27

Callandor: 2006-10-27

Sampson: 2006-10-31

Kubla Khan: 2006-11-01

Mindl: 2006-11-01

Callandor: 2006-11-01

JakOShadows: 2006-11-02

xtremixt: 2006-11-07

sogoloth: 2006-11-09

JakOShadows: 2006-11-10

Callandor: 2006-11-10

Saidar Haran: 2006-11-13

Lugh of the Vanth: 2006-11-13

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-11-15

JakOShadows: 2006-11-15

Callandor: 2006-11-15

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-11-19

Callandor: 2006-11-21

greatwolf: 2006-11-27

JakOShadows: 2006-11-28

Callandor: 2006-11-28

greatwolf: 2006-12-01

vardene: 2006-12-02

JakOShadows: 2006-12-02

Callandor: 2006-12-02

greatwolf: 2006-12-03

greatwolf: 2006-12-11

ilgross: 2006-12-13

ForsakenRahvin: 2006-12-15

Callandor: 2006-12-16

greatwolf: 2006-12-20

Callandor: 2006-12-21

JakOShadows: 2006-12-22

Davian93: 2006-12-26

Callandor: 2006-12-29

Davian93: 2006-12-31

Callandor: 2007-01-01

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-02

Davian93: 2007-01-05

vardene: 2007-01-05

Catalyst: 2007-01-06

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-07

vardene: 2007-01-08

Davian93: 2007-01-08

Anubis: 2007-01-12

Davian93: 2007-01-14

Marie Curie 7: 2007-01-17

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-18