eanchan Attack the White Tower - How it Will Happen!!!
by robbocop: 2006-07-26 | 2.47 out of 10 (15 votes)
This is my theory on the events of the Seanchan attack on the White Tower, the battle and the end of the devision within the tower.I'm so sure that it will happen like this (or similar to it) that I put it in capitals in the title.
We know that in KoD, Egwene had this veiwing in her dreams and "when a dreamer knows, she knows" attitude she put behind it. Also in KoD Elaida had requested (sorry ordered) that Egwene attend her that evening. Oooooh.
Another point from book 10 (can't remember its title and I can't see the book cos it's dark in here) was that Egwene saw a dark figure fly across the moon. A large bat, or a dragkar, she thought. BUT, maybe, just maybe, it was a Raken. Hmmm. So that puts the Seanchan in vicinity for attack because this happened nine days previous to Elaida's summons.
As I gaze into my enchanted black mirror I foretell: During the attendance of Egwene to Elaida, there will a little discussion between them of course and while this is happening Tor'raken, will drop off a few soldiers, maybe a hundred or so to begin, and sul'dam with damane and plenty of spare adam. (lol, my brothers name is adam) so, undercover of darkness, the suldam will enter the WT and begin covertly capturing(or attempting to) capture Aes Sedai.
Now the Seanchan strike me as a bit too proud and often a bit too arrogant,but far from stupid. However, they are arrogant and find some irony in using damane who were formerly Aes Sedai (and we know they have them, just not how many) to play a part in this deed. This is their first mistake, because some sisters won't see these damane as Aes Sedai but the damane will always see Aes Sedai as Aes Sedai and by the three oaths, cannot use the OP as a weapon against other Aes Sedai and blah, blah, blah. This is a weakness, because although we may not think that binding a person with air and blocking them from the OP is a weapon, the damane might and therefore cannot do it.
Another mistake the Seanchan will make is the thought that they are safe from the rebel camp because they are off the island. Hmmm.
So eventually the alarm is raised and then the fighting ensues. Elaida's new palace will probably crumble but if it doesn't I'm sure they'll find another use for it.
The major weaknesses the WT has is the devision between Ajah's and the fact that Elaida is selfish and an Alco!!! Seriously someone needs to organise an intervention and get her into rehab! I think she drank more wine and punch in the last two books than any two characters combined has in the whole series!
So there we have it. The beginning. As we know Jordan can be long winded in his plot lines so its hard to get every detail before (and sometimes after) they're written, so from here it gets a bit brief.
Now, once word of the invasion reaches Elaida, Egwene knows instantly and turns to her and says "Ha, ha! told you so!". The end.
No I'm kidding. Because Elaida is so half witted when it comes to fast and important decisions she stuffs things up a fair bit. After letting it go on for a time, Egwene FINALLY steps up and takes charge and puts Elaida over her knee for a good hard spanking. Well maybe not that. But a good psycological flogging anyway.
After orgainsing a few things Egwene weaves a gateway to contact the rebels but is stopped by Elaida's Keeper(can't recall her name) *In KoD, in the scene where Elaida puts Egene on her roster, we witness a monologue which suggests that she has a great dislike of Elaida and a great respect already for Egwene*. So the Keeper reveals that she knows Travelling and offers to get the rebels herself and she willsay something like "You are needed here" before leaving. when she gets in the camp she will ask the rebels to help,who are at first skeptical untill she weaves a gateway back to the WT and says somethinglike: "the Amyrlin Seat, Egwene Al'Vere commands it" and the rebels gather as much strength as they can muster and travels in to aide.
The Seanchan by the same token have heard the alarm and send in reinforcements just at the same time the rebels go to help.
And now, Ladies and Gentle we have war. Full scale battle with warders and soldiers and Aes Sedai against soldiers and damane, cos lets face it the Seanchan won't be able to move their beasts into the tower grounds.
Now the s**t hits the fan. Sisters and demane die. warders and soldiers die. everyone is dieing! Eventually though the WT will rise triumphant, probaly in time for sunrise, because it's a classic cliche, and will have won. They have taken a hard hit though the Seanchan willbe no better off for it. The Aes Sedai, all goody, goody, will have captured alot of the sul'dam and damane from the battle and set the damane free and now that Egwene is all hard a*s she'll probably send some of the sul'dam, under a small escort, off to Ebou Dar with the A'dam on their necks to be paraded around a bit. Not too many though cos she still has a gooey center. mmm caramel.
So there we have it. The foretold attack from the Seanchan over and done with in time for tarmon gaiden, the rebelion over and Egwene on the Amyrlin Seat. My next mission: Elaida had a foretelling of the dragon reborn knowing the Amyrlin's anger. So, what is Egwene going tobe so pis*ed about that Rand knows she's angry?
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1
Tamyrlin: 2006-12-10
While I am inclined to agree with Jordan taking a cliche look at this battle, especially considering the last book, I have a feeling the battle with the Seanchan and White Tower won't end before "Tarmon Gaidon". I was very dismayed by the attack Perrin mounted on the Aiel, which was over so quickly. I was dissappointed by how quickly Elayne was caught and then freed, turning the tables on the Black Sisters...so much build up, such a small amount of dramatic flare. That being said, it would ruin three full books of brewing, if the battle were to end so quickly. I anticipate a carnage, where the Seanchan do escape with tens of Aes Sedai, and begin using those Aes Sedai to mount another full scale attack.
By the way, Robo...the rolling commentary in the theory was pretty funny.
2
Callandor: 2006-12-10
**Another point from book 10 (can't remember its title and I can't see the book cos it's dark in here) was that Egwene saw a dark figure fly across the moon. A large bat, or a dragkar, she thought. BUT, maybe, just maybe, it was a Raken. Hmmm. So that puts the Seanchan in vicinity for attack because this happened nine days previous to Elaida's summons.**
Jordan has confirmed in his blog (10/6/2005) that it was a bat:
**Oh, yes, just to settle an argument that seems to be ongoing, Egwene saw a bat, guys. After Falme, she could recognize the long sweeping wingstrokes of a raken or to’raken, and she knows a bat when she sees one. Bats really do flutter, to confirm those who have pointed this out.**
For the rest, it's quite obvious that a battle/attack on the White Tower by the Seanchan will take place. The rest is largely details, and more or less predictions, so it's hard to be sure of truly anything of how it happens. But, the Tower "wins it" (through force or truce or however) obviously, and I do see it being over relatively quickly (probably 5 chapters I think, since it's going to be tying up a lot of threads).
3
zanguini: 2006-12-10
You know I've never really bought the notion that the Seanchan will attack the Tower. (yes i know im crazy) I understand it is the most accepted theroy.
[quote][Egwene climbs up on top of a spire.] A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause.The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.[/quote]
Now this (thanks to the faq) is the dreamwalking sequence in question. Ussually when Egwene dreams of Seanchan there is more mention of them Aes Sedai with a'dams, woman with seanchan accent, and others...
Now in Egwene's dream only mentions Ravens, admittedly the Seanchan are represented by Ravens. However you would think that if there were to be a major battle with the Seanchan here the Ravens would do more than just fly on, they don't even notice the Lamp, "the Tower" and just fly on.
There are couple of other people represented by Ravens than just the Seanchan, Mat and Tuon, alone Mat is the Prince of Ravens. Darkfriends are also represented by Ravens especially Mordeth (chapter Icons) It could be that the Black ajah are recalled, or Mordeth sneaks back into the Tower and Egwene recognizes him. But I dont beleive there will be a large battle for the Tower I believe this particular dream represents the Black Purge.
4
fish06: 2006-12-11
I find it hard to believe that Elaida's keeper would help the Aes Sadai because she is Black Ajah, I find her fleeing the tower for her own safety. It seems to fit character more than staying to fight and risking her chance at immortality. I also think that Egwenes dream where she will be helped by somebody who is Seanchan will play a crucial part in this battle I am just not sure how.
5
vardene: 2006-12-11
robbocop, there're a number of points you might want to consider relating to this theory and how events turn out eventually in book 12.
First general mat bloody cauthon is now about the highest ranking war general in the seanchan fold. (He has to be. Marrying a princes usually is a political thing. you're considered a part of that family but with rights and privileiges that are usually a little below that of those born into the family. kind of like an adopted child.)
Point is, the seanchan are usually pretty organised especially in battle. I dont see them lauching an attack without knowing the details -like how the aes sedai will react, or the presence of rebels outside the city or Travelling) Tuon heard Talmanes tell Mat the SAS could travel.
I believe the seanchan will hold off attack until they can learn the weave for travelling. They'll either infiltrate suldam (who dont have ageless faceless or any ability to give them away) or capture someone who can. i believe they've been looking for this since TPoD.
Enter Mat, as a general and princehe outranks anyone in seanchan apart from toun since there's no royal family left. On the battlefield, he outranks everybody. If he feels egwene's threatened he might do the raid himself and collar lots of aes sedai in the process. Tuon will rip him apart for it, and rand will get the blame for sending Mat, noone will believe he didn't and Mat (as the old mat) will let him stew in it. Oh, rand will also get the blame for compelling sisters. The AS will refuse to follow him to TG.(perhaps moiraine will save the day).
But the distance is too great for a force of raken to achieve any kind of surprise. And going to war without your best general is purely foolish.
Lastly, what will Tuon do with the AES sedai damane? once she learn all the suldam can channel, the seanchan are broken. what's the point?
6
Dumai Wells: 2006-12-12
Callandor, you think you know everything but you don't. Your condescending replies are not cool. I bet even Tamyrlin agrees. If you were a little nicer maybe people would like you. People try very hard on these theories. They put a lot of time and effort into it. They should be commended. Not ripped up and down. The way you go on and on... "Demandred watched Moridin stride into the room...the way he strolled in, one would think Moridin thought he was the Great Lord himself...
7
PillowFriends: 2006-12-15
***Callandor, you think you know everything but you don't. Your condescending replies are not cool. I bet even Tamyrlin agrees. If you were a little nicer maybe people would like you.***
Dumai Wells,
I agree that Callandor can sometimes be a bit abrasive, but I fail to see it in the response to this theory. Callandor is merely stating facts and throwing in some opinion (the five chapters comment).
8
Callandor: 2006-12-15
**There are couple of other people represented by Ravens than just the Seanchan, Mat and Tuon, alone Mat is the Prince of Ravens. Darkfriends are also represented by Ravens especially Mordeth (chapter Icons) It could be that the Black ajah are recalled, or Mordeth sneaks back into the Tower and Egwene recognizes him. But I dont beleive there will be a large battle for the Tower I believe this particular dream represents the Black Purge.**
Aside from the dream, there's also the fact that the Karade was overlooking some of Abaldar Yulon's plans -- and they had the map of Tar Valon. Yulon is the Captain of the Air for the Seanchan -- he's the one that deals with the raken and to'raken for missions. Obviously they'd be needed for any Seanchan strike at Tar Valon at the moment. Also, in Knife of Dreams, Captain-General Galgan is appeasing Suroth's order to send almost all raken to Tarabon to search for Rodel Ituralde -- yet he specifically says that the to'raken would not be going. They're the long-range flyers, and such would be needed for a strike at Tar Valon.
**I find it hard to believe that Elaida's keeper would help the Aes Sadai because she is Black Ajah, I find her fleeing the tower for her own safety.**
Elaida's Keeper is Tarna now, and she's not Black Ajah. Alivarin obviously is, but just clarifying ;)
**Callandor, you think you know everything but you don't. Your condescending replies are not cool. I bet even Tamyrlin agrees. If you were a little nicer maybe people would like you. People try very hard on these theories. They put a lot of time and effort into it. They should be commended. Not ripped up and down.**
Well, thank you for the quite unnecessary and quite irrelevent assault on me. I'll indulge your points just to show how futile they are.
1. I do not think I know everything. I know that I know a hell of a lot, and I try my very best to make sure people know the same information.
2. Where was the condescension in my reply? As was said, I gave the quote showing that what was supposed has already been invalidating by Jordan's comments. They didn't know that, so I told them.
3. I am quite nice to lots of people. And there was absolutely no malice in my post here, except whatever it is you felt you should read into it.
4. I'll have you know that quite a lot of people actually do like me here. Sure, they all know discussions can be heated, but I know quite well that I am liked by others here. That you would assume that I'm hated by everyone here is quite a sad statement of yourself.
5. Your words of emphasis here: "People try very hard on these theories. They put a lot of time and effort into it. They should be commended. Not ripped up and down." People do put effort into these theories, and they're always thanked for that -- so much so that it always goes without saying, and is more than known. It's like the fact of your family always loving you or your wedding vows -- you don't need to be told of them every single day; they're pre-assumed and well understood. But to say that these theories shouldn't be criticized for their short-comings is just a gross misunderstanding of the entire purpose of Theoryland. The reason people do post theories is for the feedback, specifically for those criticisms. If people just want endless adulation and praise for anything that they write -- go elsewhere. Theoryland is a test of ideas, that are subjected the the utmost scrutiny, similar in principle to peer-review scientific papers and studies.
You want to just give praise to people, go ahead. I'm working on the acknowledged principles that people here want to know the truth of this series, want to hopefully know where things will go with some accuracy (even if we might be somewhat off), and in the giving of their ideas, theories, and predictions to open discussion. If their ideas cannot stand up in such cases, it's a simple verdict: they were not that great of ideas.
Oh, and as a final tidbit, Tamyrlin has said on more than one occasion that he does appreciate what I do, even if he might have disagreements and qualms with specific instances of how it is carried out. But since he posted my comments without edit or didn't contact me regarding them or some other event regarding my post, I'd say he finds it quite valid and fine.
9
vardene: 2006-12-21
robbocop, first off let me say i agree that the priority target for the seanchan is the white tower. The "aes sedai weapon" puts it ahead of other targets like the DR and his travelling ashaman, and other channelng groups and military targets. In fact it may be the chief reason they've not attempted a blitz(a quickie).
Given that, information on this AS weapon will be a major target of operations and planning. They'll likely think that the amyrlin would know of the weapon and this means they may plan a raid to get her or (more likely) try to hold the WT(thinking it may be an angereal.) this is where i feel egwene may come in. They may pay a terrible price if they fail to learn about travelling before op day. Even an army with toraken is easily outdone by an army that can channel and travel. it may be the ebou dar disaster all over again. i think tuon at least, would be cautious. A truce with the DR may set the stage for this. Mat may be essential for such a truce. In fact if he or rand learns egwene is captive to elaida, there'll be an attack with or without the seanchan.
But all this is just probability. Egwene's dreams do not predict the future, just what may happen. it may even spin out a variety of ways from anything she dreams.
10
Davian93: 2007-01-01
****But all this is just probability. Egwene's dreams do not predict the future, just what may happen. it may even spin out a variety of ways from anything she dreams. ****
Much more than probability for so many reasons though. There are dozens of other hints about an attack on Tar Valon that independantly confirm Egwene's dream. Barring a last minute cancellation by Tuon, it will happen.
11
dwilson: 2007-01-07
in book 3 egwene has lots of dreams that are briefly mentioned - 2 of them in particular could be related to this
1 - rand is confronting a vaste horde of seanchan - now we know that he is seeking a truce with them based on his reponse from the aelfin on how to win the last battle
2 - rand and seachan together confronting egwene.
so I think what will happen is that the seachan will attempt their strike on tar valon, they will probably "bloody" the tower a bit and then the aes sedai rebels and rand together will intervene and the outcome will be rand will force a truce between all 3 parties. egwene will most likely then also become the amrylin as im sure that elida will crack under the pressure of the seanchan assult. This will then be the catylst for all of the 3 major magic sects to join forces for the last battle - the ashaman, aes sedai and seanchan
12
vardene: 2007-01-08
davian93,
***Much more than probability for so many reasons though. There are dozens of other hints about an attack on Tar Valon that independantly confirm Egwene's dream. Barring a last minute cancellation by Tuon, it will happen.***
couldn't find the evidence for that confirmation, could you supply it?
The forsaken have gone extra lengths to pit the various families of channelers vs each other, why would they allow anything that could unite the groups? i'm not saying it wont happen, but trying to pin down how in the face of the multiplicity of factors involved seems near suicidal to me. we could infer targets aims and goals but not how it will all turn out. "No plan of battle survives".
13
maharbry: 2007-01-09
If (thats a big if) the SC attack the tower I think it will lead into a "battle of the five armies" scene like in Tolkien's "The Hobbit." Where they will unite when they realize the seals are all broken and trollocs come flooding in from the blight.
I just can't believe Jordan would have all of the forces who will be united under Rand destroying each other this close to TG. It just doesnt make sense.
14
Davian93: 2007-01-10
To Vardene:
Here is some of the various evidence with references:
"TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 4 - The Tale of a Doll
Karede moved two bronze map-weights shaped like lions and let the map of Tar Valon roll up on itself. The other had not been unrolled, yet. "You must ask Lord Yulan, Seeker. Loyalty to the Crystal Throne is precious above the breath of life, followed closely by knowing when to keep silent. The more who speak of a thing, the more will learn of it who should not."
The Deathwatch Guards along with the Flyers are prepping for a major raid on Tar Valon as can be seen by the planning (map of Tar Valon), Raken and To'Raken being off limits to non-vital missions as seen below:
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - Embers Falling on Dry Grass
"Galgan shrugged, utterly unperturbed. A red-lacquered fingernail traced lines on the map as though he were planning movements of soldiers. "So long as you don't want the to'raken, too, I raise no objections. That plan must go forward."
And of course, there is Egwene's dream itself:
Crossroads of Twilight
Ch. 20 In the Night
"Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobÂbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling. Egwene woke in darkness with a jolt. She knew. For the first time, she knew exactly what a dream meant. But why would she dream of a Seanchan woman saving her, and then of the Seanchan attacking the White Tower? An attack that would shake the Aes Sedai to their core and threaten the Tower itself. Of course, it was only a possibility. But the events seen in true dreams were more likely than other possibilities."
Also there is Min's viewing in TSR:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow
"An Aes Sedai glimpsed down a side hallway appeared to have chains in the air around her, and another, crossing the corridor ahead of Min and her guide, seemed for most of those few strides to wear a silver collar around her neck. Min's breath caught at that; she wanted to scream."
Now this one is a definite for an attack on the Tower, but we know pretty much all the AS that have been collared and she probably isn't one of them.
There are more hints, mainly Egwene's dreams and comments by Seanchan, but I don't have the time to hunt them down right now.
15
JakOShadows: 2007-01-11
***"An Aes Sedai glimpsed down a side hallway appeared to have chains in the air around her, and another, crossing the corridor ahead of Min and her guide, seemed for most of those few strides to wear a silver collar around her neck. Min's breath caught at that; she wanted to scream."
Now this one is a definite for an attack on the Tower, but we know pretty much all the AS that have been collared and she probably isn't one of them.***
that example could be related to AS being captured in Tarabon and Altara as well. I'm not sure if we ever find out who that is and where she ends up going later in the series, but I probably will look it up soon now that you mention it. Everything else in there seems like a solid evidence though.
In this, I think the important issue is what will happen when they attack, because depending on what happens it can cause a real mess.
16
Catalyst: 2007-01-13
Now Mat is Prince of the Ravens. I think it is quite a high position among the Seanchan. He does not like Aes Sedai, but I am certain that he will not assault Tar Valon. On the other hand... he might be too busy rescuing Moiraine to pay attention. Who knows?
17
vardene: 2007-01-14
Thanks for the quotes davian though i had earlier posted that i believe an attack on the WT is a high seanchan priority, i dont see any viewing by min that makes the attack certain. Egwene repeated dreams and the many hints indicate it is likely to happen.But though nicola foretells an amyrlin captured, she doesn't mention an attack, nor does min. it isnt certain.
But the advantage of dreaming over prophecy is that you can act to prevent the dreams being fulfilled-the rntire reason why Egwene warns the aes sedai.
This theory though, concerns the how. If it happens, how will the attack take place? I believe that depends on what the goal is.It could be to get their hands on the aes sedai "weapon". in this case, i favour a direct attack aiming at the person of the amyrlin-she's most likely to hold the nuclear briefcase!- which favours the scenario robbocop painted.
It may occur at matt's behest-some of egwene's dreams indicate involvement of rand- in which case the purpose may be to free egwene. This could explain why the seanchan in egwene's dreams offers to help her.
How does Tuon deal with the suldam question? i feel this too, becomes a factor in whether or not an attack will go ahead-a treaty with the DR may also form part- and for this reason it may be mat rather than tuon, who says go..
18
terez: 2007-01-14
"An Aes Sedai glimpsed down a side hallway appeared to have chains in the air around her, and another, crossing the corridor ahead of Min and her guide, seemed for most of those few strides to wear a silver collar around her neck. Min's breath caught at that; she wanted to scream."
Now this one is a definite for an attack on the Tower, but we know pretty much all the AS that have been collared and she probably isn't one of them.
Min had all these visions before the Tower split, so, for all we know, that could have been Edesina or Guisin, who were sent to scope out Tarabon for the rebels, and then captured. It could have been Teslyn, though she was only damane for a short time.
Now Mat is Prince of the Ravens. I think it is quite a high position among the Seanchan.
Actually, Mat likely has a different title now that Tuon is Empress.
19
Ragner: 2007-02-26
What about Galad and his WhiteCloaks? After his duel (forget the book) he and his "renegade" whitecloaks ride to ally with the aes sedia. i think he will be part of this battle.
20
vardene: 2007-03-03
**Actually, Mat likely has a different title now that Tuon is Empress.**
i doubt that, she was already daughter-heir. But if ravens attack the tower and mat is prince..
21
terez: 2007-03-04
"i doubt that, she was already daughter-heir. But if ravens attack the tower and mat is prince.."
No, Elayne was Daughter-heir. Tuon was the Daughter of the Nine Moons. If Tuon goes from Daughter of the Nine Moons to Empress, it stands to reason that Mat's title will change as well.
Also, I think there are a few things that point to a possibility that Mat will be involved in the events at the Tower, the dream and his position nonwithstanding. One is the Horn, which is in the Tower. Mat needs it. Another is the fact that he promised Joline and Teslyn that he would get them to Tar Valon. Another is the simple potential for irony with his near-immunity to the Power. :) And wouldn't it be cool for Egwene to get rescued by Mat...again?
22
vardene: 2007-03-08
Terez,
Egwene dreamed of ravens striking the WT, if matt is PotR, rj may be pointing him out as the culprit of the attack. To rescue egwene and get the horn(i bet he wont tell Tuon) and egwene will be incensed to high heavens. i think that's the easy part though.
If the seanchan attack the WT, how will rand unite them all? For that matter TG has practically begun and he hasn't united anyone. BT, WT, wise ones seafolk, ogier, borderlanders, Tuon...
Is he supposed to unite the DFs too? :)
23
terez: 2007-03-09
Vardene:
“Egwene dreamed of ravens striking the WT, if matt is PotR, rj may be pointing him out as the culprit of the attack. To rescue egwene and get the horn(i bet he wont tell Tuon) and egwene will be incensed to high heavens. i think that's the easy part though.â€
I highly doubt that Mat will attack the Tower - we already know that there are plans from the Seanchan side to attack, so it’s logical to assume that Egwene’s dream was concerning this:
___________________________
TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 4 - The Tale of a Doll
“A precious thing, loyalty,†the pale-haired man said, eyeing the tabletop, after Ajimbura pulled the door shut behind himself. “You are involved in Lord Yulan’s plans, Banner-General Karede? I would not have expected the Deathwatch Guard to be part of that.â€
Karede moved two bronze map-weights shaped like lions and let the map of Tar Valon roll up on itself. The other had not been unrolled, yet. “You must ask Lord Yulan, Seeker. Loyalty to the Crystal Throne is precious above the breath of life, followed closely by knowing when to keep silent. The more who speak of a thing, the more will learn of it who should not.â€
___________________________
I will, however, allow for the possibility that Mat could be a part of what Egwene saw in her dream. She saw two ravens, and it is possible that one of them could represent the Seanchan attack, and the other Mat. It may be that RJ chooses to make Mat an essential part of the battle there, and it is also possible that Mat could effect the truce from there on Rand’s behalf. That is, if Tuon shows up - which she might. It’s really difficult to speculate on the possibilities of the truce. Obviously, the irony of Rand’s search for the woman that is now Mat’s wife will come into play somehow, but I tend to believe that Rand will discover that truth in Caemlyn. I must admit, however, that I would love to see Mat deliver the terms of the truce to Tuon in the White Tower.
â€If the seanchan attack the WT, how will rand unite them all? For that matter TG has practically begun and he hasn't united anyone. BT, WT, wise ones seafolk, ogier, borderlanders, Tuon...
Is he supposed to unite the DFs too? :)â€
lol…no, I don’t think he’s supposed to unite the Darkfriends. Don’t worry about the Ogier - Loial has them well in hand. Don’t worry about the Borderlanders, either…Lan is doing what he was born to do, there. And how can you say that Rand hasn’t united the Wise Ones? He’s got the Aiel under his thumb, especially now that the Seanchan and Perrin have effected the decimation of the Shaido. And the Seafolk? They may be ornery, but they are bound by the bargain to do whatever he needs them to do. The Black Tower? Logain is pushing for that, and I think he’ll get his way soon enough, though Rand might require him to take care of it on his own. And as for the White Tower…as soon as it is in Egwene’s hands, it will be fully behind Rand. Mat will obviously play a huge role in the truce with the Seanchan, though it is yet to be seen how Tuon will deal with the fact that Rand won’t be kneeling to the Crystal Throne. :)
24
Ozymandias: 2007-03-14
I'm sure this has been considered, but I didn't see it here. Are we so absolutely sure Egwene is right? I mean, just because she understands her Dreams doesn't mean she understands them, if that makes sense.
For example, I always viewed the two ravens as the Seanchan and the Shadow. They have both rocked the White Tower to its very boots recently. The Shadow by making the existence of the Black Ajah more or less public (or having it made public, I'm sure the Black tried to keep it under wraps). The Seanchan by leashing Aes Sedai. Can anything be more destructive to the Tower? The one thing that separates Aes Sedai from wilders and even people in general is their aloofness. They are serene, untouchable in their power, infallible and mysterious. Aes Sedai (or what are perceived to be Aes Sedai) as slaves, leashed and collared, and seemingly breaking the Three Oaths has probably done more to the reputation of Aes Sedai than any split in the Tower could.
The power of the Tower (lol), its true power, lies in its reputation. The sisters could convince people the rebellion was an elaborate plot. They can mend fences with the people the neglected in Tar Valon. They cannot make people forget that channelers (who most people assume are Aes Sedai) used the One Power as a weapon. Cannot make them forget an ageless face collared against her will. With its reputation shaken, the prestige of the sisters gone, has that not shaken the Tower to its deepest cellars, and given truth to Egwene's Dream?
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terez: 2007-03-16
Ozy:
“I'm sure this has been considered, but I didn't see it here. Are we so absolutely sure Egwene is right? I mean, just because she understands her Dreams doesn't mean she understands them, if that makes sense.â€
According to Egwene, yes, she knows. She did, after all, study Dreaming with the Wise Ones, and this is what she said about it:
________________________________
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - Embers Falling on Dry Grass
Barasine sniffed. Katerine gave a derisive snort. "A Dreamer," Silviana said flatly. "Is there anyone who can back up your claim? And if there is, how can be sure your dream means the Seanchan? Ravens would indicate the Shadow, to me."
"I'm a Dreamer, and when a Dreamer knows, she knows. Not the Shadow. The Seanchan. As for who knows what I can do...." Egwene shrugged. "The only one you can reach is Leane Sharif, who's being held in the cells below." She saw no way to bring the Wise Ones into this, not without revealing entirely too much.
________________________________
If it weren’t for the studying she did with the Wise Ones, I might doubt her, but that studying with the experts means Egwene knows what she’s talking about. She knows. I allow for the possibility that one of the ravens could represent Mat because Mat is Seanchan now, by marriage, but the option of one of the ravens representing the Shadow is out. Also, we have clues from the Seanchan, in the quote that I provided above, that they are indeed planning on attacking the Tower.
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GamblersDice: 2007-03-20
Not bad but as has been stated several times Egwene just see's ravens. which are admittedly reminiscent of the Seanchan.
However by all accounts the Seanchan are very systematic I don't think they would attack Tar Valon until they held the lands around it.
Mat on the other hand is also associated with Ravens, even more so now that hes the Prince of them.
He knows that he needs the Horn of Valere (or he will soon enough), so I dare say he'll show up at the White Tower demand to be allowed to retrieve the Horn, when neither side pas him any mind, mat, being mat will lose his temper. Give them a set time to stop fighting and hand it over. They will of course completely ignore him. At this point Mat will bring down the Shining walls with cannon fire.
The rebel army will take advantage of this and charge in.
It even fits the vision because the oil each supporting a white flame would seem to indicate the Aes Sedai shattering and forming amny small groups. After seeing one man bring down the walls many Aees Sedai would scatter, especially when they find out channeling won't stop him.
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Ozymandias: 2007-03-21
channeling can't stop him? Are you serious? If Mat attacks the Tower he'll be torn apart. All the Aes Sedai has to do is throw a rock at his head with the power, and wham, bam, thank you ma'am... no more Prince of Ravens. The rock killed him, not the Power.
Terez, I'm not saying the Seanchan have nothing to do with it. Egwene doesn't say that only the Seanchan will attack. One raven could be represented by the Seanchan. The second might represent the Shadow. As Egwene says herself, when she knows, she knows. I'm not saying she doesn't. But it seems to be agreed that it isn't RJ's style to have two ravens represent something where one could do. That second raven represents SOMETHING. It's not Mat. We know Mat likes to stay clear of Aes Sedai, and even if he goes in for the Horn, that isn't enough to rock the foundations of the Tower like Egwene Dreams. Discovering the Black Ajah... well, that would surely be enough to shake the much-vaunted but little-seen Aes Sedai serenity (has anyone noticed Aes Sedai have started to seem more easily shaken than anyone else in the series, even though their composure is legendary? Strange).
I can't possibly prove this, of course, at least not yet, but it does seem to make sense. Egwene isn't wrong, she just hasn't fully interpreted the Dream. Some of her Dreams have actually been proven wrong. For example, in LoC she Dreams that Perrin is running from a Tinker... hasn't happened, and I don't see that happening any time soon. He didn't run from Aram, and you know thats who we thought it would be.
Just the same as Rand "knows" but doesn't always "know" whats going on, Egwene might "know" some of a thing, but not all of it. Its still possible, and beyond that, its the most logical suggestion so far.
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Terez1: 2007-03-21
GamblersDice:
“However by all accounts the Seanchan are very systematic I don't think they would attack Tar Valon until they held the lands around it.â€
What lands around Tar Valon? Discounting the bridge villages, the lands around Tar Valon for miles and miles are uninhabited. The most important factor in holding Tar Valon is taking the Tower, and if they intend to take Tar Valon (some think they will simply raid for damane) then they must take the Tower by surprise.
“He knows that he needs the Horn of Valere (or he will soon enough), so I dare say he'll show up at the White Tower demand to be allowed to retrieve the Horn, when neither side pas him any mind, mat, being mat will lose his temper. Give them a set time to stop fighting and hand it over. They will of course completely ignore him. At this point Mat will bring down the Shining walls with cannon fire.â€
Ha! I really doubt Mat will bring down the walls with cannon fire. But I rather think that obtaining the Horn shouldn’t be a problem for him, if he’s involved in the attack. I think it more likely that he would ironically rescue Egwene again. Perhaps he is the running person in her Dream.
“It even fits the vision because the oil each supporting a white flame would seem to indicate the Aes Sedai shattering and forming amny small groups. After seeing one man bring down the walls many Aees Sedai would scatter, especially when they find out channeling won't stop him.â€
There are many things that could cause the Aes Sedai to scatter, if that is indeed what the Dream means. But Mat is not going to bring down the walls. Egwene would never forgive him. ;)
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Allchaos: 2007-04-21
Hmmm...I'm a newbie here guys, so don't be too harsh haha.
I was wondering, has Mat already put those two Aes Sedai on a balance scale? Because if not, one might be Moiraine and the other Egwene, cause the world really does depend on that decision...
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vardene: 2007-04-30
Terez, do you oppose anything i post on general principle? :)
The issue in this theory is the seanchan attack. But its not a foretelling or viewing or prophecy, its just a dream. it could change, even if egwene is certain of its interpretation(and all aspects of it?) that's precisely why she bothers to warn the tower lot. It isnt a certain future, just very likely to happen the way the dream suggests. A lot could change from the last time you dreamed.
Two the foretelling elaida had declares that the WT will be whole and stronger before the amyrlin punches rand on the nose! No mention of an attck! it might not happen if the right steps are taken.
Robbocop's methodology for the ?attack isnt the only one possible. forkroot, adam or even a joint attack with rand!
But now she's married, Tuon has to consider her rascal's interests as well. I mean you dont kick your partner below without good reason. Even if egwene doesnt want to be rescued i can see matt doing it to annoy her, and rand getting the blame..
Just dont be surprised if it dont happen in Amol
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terez: 2007-05-03
Vardene:
“Terez, do you oppose anything i post on general principle?â€
No. I probably should by now, but I still analyze everything you say on merit alone.
“The issue in this theory is the seanchan attack. But its not a foretelling or viewing or prophecy, its just a dream.â€
It is a prophetic dream, and it is supported by the fact that the Seanchan actually have plans to attack Tar Valon (see the Karede quote I provided above).
“it could change, even if egwene is certain of its interpretation(and all aspects of it?) that's precisely why she bothers to warn the tower lot.â€
No. She warns them because she knows it is going to happen. Think about it, Vardene - warning the Aes Sedai isn’t going to prevent the Seanchan from attacking - it will just help them to prepare for the inevitable attack. What Egwene saw will happen, but it could have varying degrees of devastation, depending on how prepared they are.
“It isnt a certain future, just very likely to happen the way the dream suggests. A lot could change from the last time you dreamed.â€
It is true that what is foretold in dreams can alter, but they have to be forcibly altered, unless they are seen as uncertainties. Egwene will not prevent the attack unless she influences the Seanchan themselves, which isn’t likely to happen.
“Two the foretelling elaida had declares that the WT will be whole and stronger before the amyrlin punches rand on the nose! No mention of an attck!â€
Why do you think it means anything that Elaida’s Foretelling doesn’t mention the attack? The Foretelling and the dream do not contradict each other.
“it might not happen if the right steps are taken.â€
Like I said, all Egwene can do is try to prepare the Tower for the attack; she can’t prevent the attack without having some way to influence the Seanchan themselves.
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vardene: 2007-05-10
Allchaos,
why egwene and Moiraine? do you have some proof for your choice?
Terez,
**I still analyze everything you say on merit alone.**
all right, am laughing. :):)
***It is a PROPHETIC dream, and it is supported by the fact that the Seanchan actually have plans to attack Tar Valon ***
Prophetic! Prophecies must be fulfilled to be regarded as such:) or come via a recognised authority. The only recognised means of prophecy in randland is Foretelling (min's viewings for those who know of her and the finns do give true answers if the situation is right) but not dreaming and not Egwene in particular. I dont see how you want to equate dreaming to foretelling.
No. She warns them because she knows it is going to happen. Think about it, Vardene - warning the Aes Sedai isn’t going to prevent the Seanchan from attacking - it will just help them to prepare for the inevitable attack. What Egwene saw will happen, but it could have varying degrees of devastation, depending on how prepared they are.
***It is true that what is foretold in dreams can alter, but they have to be forcibly altered, unless they are seen as uncertainties. Egwene will not prevent the attack unless she influences the Seanchan themselves, which isn’t likely to happen.***
Events have already outpaced the dream. a, Your quote shows the seanchan studying the city and implying the involvement of the air forces. That was before the tower learnt traveling and maybe before the seige. How will the seanchan attack? overfly the SAS and hope the wont see or attack? or attack them first to gain positions to assault the city? They've already had a brush with a Travelling army. Tuon referred to it as " a disaster .. not to be repeated" Unless the seanchan can Travel, they risk making it a thgree way fight with Elaida in the best position to benefit.
b, Mat is now PotR. Tuon cant put a leash on egwene if she knows her relation to Matt. or risk her life.
c, Matt is now the highest ranking general in the seanchan army. Unless Tuon decides he cant have the rights afforded him by marriage. He is also the most brilliant (hmmph!) general around. And even the seanchan can testify to that.
***Why do you think it means anything that Elaida’s Foretelling doesn’t mention the attack? The Foretelling and the dream do not contradict each other.***
as i've said before, foretelling is CERTAIN dreaming isnt.
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deil: 2008-12-06
Everybody seems to have forgotten the increasing number of Ashaman the Red Ajah is gathering in Tar Valon. I suspect they will have a part to play in any Seanchan attack on the WT. Particularly since they have to be the ONLY people in Tar Valon with any experience against fighting Seanchan and their damane. Their presence in Tar Valon will most likely also be another blow to Elaida.
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bobb: 2009-01-26
The Seanchan will attack the WT. It is stated that when a 'dreamer knows she knows'.
It would appear however from the dream that this will be a fleeting attack as the ravens from the dream quickly fly on. I assume by this that the attack will be interrupted. This could be because of TG arriving and everyone being needed but I think more likely the reappearance of Mat who eventually must reclaim the Horn. Assuming Tuon has regained control of the Seanchan armies by this stage Mat's appearance on the scene would be the event most likely to halt the attack.
Rand will likely be with Mat at this stage. We know that Rand must bow before both the Crystal Throne and The Amyrlin Seat. What better place to tie up all these loose ends than by ending the battle between the WT and Seanchan at TV.
So Rand bows to the two great rulers, Mat reclaims the Horn and everyone heads off for the start of TG, prophecies fulfilled. Pretty neat, eh?
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theory master: 2009-03-12
i think everyone is forgetting masema dealing with the seanchan. this will be important b/c i think masema is demandred or at least being controlled by him, so when the ashaman have a civil war, the rebel ones will call on demandred to bring the seanchan to help. the seanchan he brings by travelling will be darkfriends or tricked by darkfriends into attacking the loyal ashaman. the loyal ones, led by logain, will call on the AS to help, and in the big battle egwene will take charge of the AS who will accept her as Amyrlin, mat will arrive to take the horn, and egwene will blow her top at rand for creating ashaman in the first place. all prophecies and problems solved.
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Kallaes: 2009-07-10
When considering how the Seanchan attack on the White Tower would work out, I think we need to remember where Elaida has moved her quarters. She resides high up in the Tower, well apart from the rest of the Aes Sedai. This is highly advantageous to the Seanchan even if they are unaware of this fact when they launch an attack. Raken and to’raken are not just useful for crossing the intervening land between the Seanchan lines and the White Tower. I cannot see the Seanchan ignoring the advantages of placing a small force into the upper levels of the Tower itself. This bypasses virtually all resistance and allows them to start taking Aes Sedai immediately. Elaida could find herself wearing an a’dam before anyone even knows the attack has begun. Aes Sedai, Warder’s and Tower Guard will not be able to provide much resistance when the Amyrlin Seat they follow is being used as a human shield.
