Tamyrlin: 2007-07-08

Obi, nice first theory. I admire that you are attempting to tackle a post Book 12 subject, which I imagine will happen more as the years pass after the final book has come and gone. However, there are a couple of points I disagree with such as the belief that the Three Oaths will remain. I can't see Logain (or Rand) making a concession. If such occurred, if the Towers mix, I would imagine a much larger "shake-up" if you will, that will go beyond Egwene's time as Amyrlin. It seems a bit rushed to believe these two groups could come together in such harmony as you describe. I see Egwene as the catalyst, but I doubt she will see many of her attempts at reform materialize as she plans. Cadsuane, and those like her have been through many Amyrlins, so while they will listen to the child-Egwene, they will circumvent her to slow her attempts at change. But this is an interesting topic. What will happen after the Final Battle?

irerancincpkc: 2007-07-08

When you say that Egwene will be Amyrlin, do you mean that she will be leader of both male and female? Or do you think that the M'Hael and Amyrlin will stick around for their respective groups, but a Tamyrlin will be chosen to rule over all. Two leaders wouldn't work out too good.

LordoftheWheel: 2007-07-09

I like this theory, but like Tam said it would probably take awhile for anything like this to work in harmony. But it would be nice to see the men and women getting along for once.

Ozymandias: 2007-07-09

I don't know Tam, he could be right. Tarmon Gai'don is gonna be pretty cataclysmic, by all reasonable standards, and I don't think its too much of a stretch to envision a lot of old guard Aes Sedai being killed or retired in the fighting in favor younger, more hawkish ladies.

And I think Egwene gets rid of the Oaths. The Oaths, as much as anything, hold Aes Sedai aloof and make them something to be feared rather than respected or comfortable with. I mean, if someone is able to like, they're just like the common man, and someone is more likely to take what they say at face value, knowing that a lie can be obvious. When everything is technically the truth, people will look into things more for hidden meaning, and because of this trust Aes Sedai less.

JakOShadows: 2007-07-10

I think everything in the theory will eventually happen with reuniting the tower. But like everyone else, it would be very hard for it to happen as quickly as your implying. But if there is another breaking, I could certainly see it being a result of all these events.

And with the three oaths, while we as the reader know that they work, no one trusts them anyways. And not to mention the fact that they can be removed. There really is no purpose at all to having them, and the fact that it shortens life expectancy and gives the AS an ageless face hurts them. So while Egwene may not be able to remove them, she should logically remove them or start them on down that road of reform. And with the breaking, there is a good chance of that happening, so I think its about 50/50 either way.

lordoftwilight: 2007-07-10

Not to be random in this but I doubt that the Aiel Wise on'e or the Shara Chanallers will want to join the Aes sedai, since they are way weker then they once were and also you forgot to incorporate how Sadair is getting weaker but Sadin is just as strong as it has ever been from what we know, although Sadin has not been regularly chanalled. Another point, I think the men will have more of a problem since right know the black tower is split as those who follow Mazrm Taim, and those who want to follow the Dragon reborn, so this will make the merging difficult. Getting the Seachan to join the tower and give up the leashed ones just seems out of the question also you forgot to incorporate the prophocy about the gaurdians out whieghing(or numbering sorry don't have the passage on me) the servants, and this prohocy also incorartes other importantevents after Rand disappears after TG. So I think if anyone is going to have the power to reform its going to be the Asha'man since there name in the old tounge means guardian so this prophocey obviosly is about them so that means they have the pure numbers to force a reformation on the white tower more then the white tower does on the Black one.

Good theory I also agree about retiring into the kin so if nothing else Egwne will probably became Amyrlin since the tower has been put under to much stress from Eledia's rule being the puppet for the Black Ajah, so Eldia will most likely be stilled for allowing that to happen.

JollyW89: 2007-07-10

I think that before the last battle both the white and black tower will have there "civil wars' as thats where they seem to be leadin on both side. In both casses it seems that the numbers of the split seem even, though Egwene has many more untrianed accepted and novices with the liberal recruiting that she has been doing.

I think that on the onset of the civil wars Egwene and Logain will be lossing the battles. So they set up an alliance to beat there rivals, and in doing so the Aes Sedia will finaly believe that Saidin is tait free and the alliance will allow both factions to win and in doing so will create a united and strong "grey" tower.

On a side note I think that Egwene will do this behind Rands back for two reason. The first reason will be because she wants to be a strong leader infront of her daughters. The second will be because she knows his distrust of the Aes Sedia. Even though Elayne will tell him after it happens and he goes into a rage.

JakOShadows: 2007-07-11

JollyW89:

I like your idea, but the fact that Egwene is currently imprisoned in the white tower doesn't help. And I don't see the other rebel AS as wanting to form an alliance with Logain. They are willing to bond them, but bonding them as warders makes them subserviant in their mind. A mutual alliance makes them equals which they have never wanted to acknowledge. But I do agree that it is a logical course of action if cooler heads preside.

Davian93: 2007-07-13

***

Egwene would NEVER give up the three oaths, so those will definitely stay.

***

Nah, because the men won't accept the 3 oaths especially if they understand the affect they have on lifespan. It won't happen. Egwene would definitely have to bend on that one.

There is tons of conjecture here only there is no evidence from either the books or interviews to back any of it up. With some evidence for support, it could be a fairly solid theory.

vardene: 2007-07-15

hello obi.

***and that you’ll go at least somewhat easy on me… ***

well for the first, its not boring at all IMO, and for the second, i believe all the darkfriends at theoryland will soon be rooted out to make for safe surfing :) just hang in there.

***Egwene would NEVER give up the three oaths, so those will definitely stay.***

i dont think egwene likes the idea of the three oaths that much you know. It seems she holds to it because she wants to be aes sedai. If there's a new tower, not everyone may be interested in being aes sedai. Post breaking, the three oaths helped to make AS acceptable to nations and rulers. It represents a leash as much as the adam male or female.

The real question i think may be who wins the LB and how? If for example, wilders end up helping out a lot more than AS, i think people would be willing to have them around free of the oaths and free from AS interference.

It could be ashaman damane or others who get the victory for the light. Of course, if the DO wins.. :(.

Wolfbait: 2007-07-16

The conflict between men/women has been a recurring theme within the wheel of time universe. Just to name a few examples...

1. Emonds Field lived in peace owing to its "government" shared among the Village Council (men) and the Womens circle.

2. The AoL was a time of peace and prosperity with both Men and Women Aes Sedai. THis is why the ancient symbol is as it is - black= men, women=white. The age of legends people understood the need for balance.

3. Since the balance of the AoL was broken, there have been cataclymic wars that prevent any kind of revival of the AoL - because there has been an imbalance between the genders owing to the killing of male chanelers.

It is for this reason that I beleive that your theory must be fundamentally speaking, correct. However, there can be debate on the specifics. While the neccesity of unity is a theme, nobody said it was going to be easy, and everyone would get all chummy again in a hurry.

Men and women conflicting is also another theme. How many times have you heard men say women dont make sense, and vice verca? Women subjugate their warders, men are bullied by their wives, and men like to think they are in charge of events - as do the women. However, two main civilisations HAVE essentially avoided conflict. I talk, of course, about the sea folt ant the aiel.

In the sea folk, the men take care of trade/economics while the woman pilot the ships. In the aiel society, Clan Chiefs are in chage, but the Wise Ones wield power oves specific facets of society. This is how the white tower must be reformed.

The towers will quite possibly join into a single geographical area. However, having men join the ajahs will - in my opinion - not occur. They will each have different roled and duties. Owing to the nature of the black tower - weapons - it stands to reason that male aes sedai (or asha'ma, should they keep the name) will be in charge of "keeping the peace" so to speak, while women will take care of issues of their respective ajahs. However, that is not to say the two will not work together. Joined circles will occur, and men will likely work with women on issues of healing and philosophy as much as women will join men in becoming peacekeepers. This is where bonding can occur, and most likely, will occur.

Catalyst: 2007-07-18

The Wheel of Time turns and ages come and pass, and saidin gets dirty and gets a shower... is being cleansed, I mean... men are exiled from the order of the "Servants of All", but in the Second Age they are back in the ranks. So at some point they rejoin the Aes Sedai.

But there's young Nicola's Foretelling: "...the GUARDIANS BALANCE THE SERVANTS..." (in the Old Tongue "...Asha'man com'nyue Aes Sedai..." or some such sentence), so I think the reunion will wait an Age or two. The Three Oaths are also removed at some point of the Timeline, because in the Second Age the Oath Rod is used only for punishments. I hope that the Black Tower will be the more powerful of the Two Towers.

P.S. Members of Theoryland, I provoke you to make a bet on this: who will still Elaida?

Here is the list of the candidates:

1. Logain Ablar (giving her back the favor)

2. Siuan Sanche (the same reason)

3. Egwene al'Vere (desposing the usurper Amyrlin)

4. Elayne Trakand (will learn the events that occured at Dumai's Wells and the reason for them)

5. Aviendha (the same reason)

6. Rand al'Thor/Lews Therin Telamon (giving her back the favor)

7. Tarna (gets too nerved by her behavior and reacts)

8. Leane (Siuan's reason)

9. Mesaana (unleashing her anger because of her dispositioning among the Chosen)

10. Alviarin (the same reason as Mesaana).

The text in the brackets is the candidate's reason for wanting to still Elaida. If you think that there are other candidates, please make another list. Or if you don't think that Elaida will be stilled at all, make your objection on this very website :)

P.P.S. If you take up my challenge, wager money on your own risk. Don't forget that you will earn your money in 2009. If you decide te bet anything at all. Just give your opinions.

Marie Curie 7: 2007-07-26

lordoftwilight:
"Not to be random in this but I doubt that the Aiel Wise on'e or the Shara Chanallers will want to join the Aes sedai, since they are way weker then they once were and also you forgot to incorporate how Sadair is getting weaker but Sadin is just as strong as it has ever been from what we know, although Sadin has not been regularly chanalled."

There has been no real indication that saidar is failing or getting weaker as you suggest. It has been noticed (in the rebel camp and in Tar Valon, for example) that some of the wards have been failing, but that doesn't mean that saidar itself is failing. The wards that have been failing are those that keep out vermin and protect food from spoiling and the like. We know that the increasing touch by the Dark One on the world has led to increases in food spoilage and vermin, so it's logical to assume that the increased pressure on the related wards is what has been causing them to fail.

"Getting the Seachan to join the tower and give up the leashed ones just seems out of the question also you forgot to incorporate the prophocy about the gaurdians out whieghing(or numbering sorry don't have the passage on me) the servants, and this prohocy also incorartes other important events after Rand disappears after TG."

The fact that it is starting to be known among the Seanchan (though not widely yet) that sul'dam can channel is likely to be the beginning of the end of the sul'dam/damane method of dealing with female channelers among the Seanchan.

And FYI, Nicola's prophecy says that the Guardians balance the Servants.

Marie Curie 7: 2007-08-03

Davian:
"Nah, because the men won't accept the 3 oaths especially if they understand the affect they have on lifespan. It won't happen. Egwene would definitely have to bend on that one."

I don't think that the men would have to accept being bound by the Three Oaths at all - for the simple reason that it isn't possible with the binders that are currently available. As far as we know, the White Tower's Oath Rod and the one that Sevanna was given only work on women:

------
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 40 - Spears

To her surprise, Caddar was also observant. "All you need do is have your Aes Sedai" - walking easily beside her on his long legs, he grinned suddenly, toothily, at Rhiale and Therava - "or any woman who can channel hold the rod and speak whatever promises you wish while someone channels a little Spirit into the number. The marks on the end of the rod?" he added, raising his eyebrows insultingly. "You can use it to release her, too but that is more painful. Or so I understand."

Sevanna's fingers touched the rod lightly. More glass than ivory, and very cool. "It only works on women?" She ducked into the tent ahead of him. The Wise Ones and the leaders of the warrior societies were gone, but the dozen treekiller gai'shain remained, kneeling patiently to one side. No one person had ever kept a dozen gai'shain before, and she possessed more. There would have to be a new name for them, though, since they would never put off the white.

"Women who can channel, Sevanna," Caddar said, following her in. The man's tone was incredibly insolent. His dark eyes shone with open amusement. "You will have to wait until you have al'Thor before I give you what will control him."

Removing the sack from his shoulder, he sat. Not on a cushion near hers, of course. Maisia was not afraid of a blade in her ribs; she lounged on an elbow almost at Sevanna's side. Sevanna eyed her sideways, then casually undid another lace of her own blouse. She did not recall the woman's bosom being as round as that. For that matter, her face seemed even more beautiful, as well. Sevanna tried not to grind her teeth.

"Of course," Caddar went on, "if you mean some other man - There is a thing called a binding chair. Binding people who cannot channel is more difficult than binding those who can. Perhaps a binding chair survived the Breaking, but you will have to wait while I find it."
------

Now it's possible that Sammael was lying when he said that particular binder would only work on female channelers; however, it seems more likely to me that one set of binders worked for women and another set worked for men (and we have only seen two that work for women so far in the series).


Catalyst:
"The Three Oaths are also removed at some point of the Timeline, because in the Second Age the Oath Rod is used only for punishments."

Well, at some point along the Wheel the ability to channel is lost completely. So, before the Second Age comes again, the Oaths will not be an issue at all since there will be no channelers around to take Oaths; therefore, you can't really invoke the Second Age use of binders for punishment as proof that the Three Oaths will be removed.

77jester: 2007-08-11

This is just a reply to Catalyst wager, or rather an alternative thought.

Nothing would please me more than to see Elaida get whats coming to her, but part of me doesn't see her being stilled/executed/banished or any other similar punishment. Being this close to T. G. she's too powerful of an ally to just throw away. I propose that after she and the others that brought her to power, after being birched in the public square, are sent to the windfinders to be teachers in order for The Bargain to be met, while not humiliating any decent sisters.

Even though Elaida is the epitome of B****iness and craves power and respect, she still wants "Good" to prevail.

Davian93: 2007-08-16

****Even though Elaida is the epitome of B****iness and craves power and respect, she still wants "Good" to prevail****

the key question, however, is "Does Elaida actually understand what good is?" Personally, I don't think she does. Her own innate stubborness combined with Fain's manipulation has destroyed any chance of her ever being reasonable in her dealings with Rand. This blind spot has hamstrung her for her entire reign as Amyrlin. Her own belief in infalliability has also been quite detrimental to her chances at success. Her insane belief that Rand should be chained in the Tower until Tarmon Gaidon, her belief that Elayne is the key to the last battle and her inability to correctly interpret her foretellings have collided to make a perfect storm that will carry her from office. And I also heard she still supports the war in Iraq. All of these things make it impossible for Elaida to truly be on the side of good.

One of the only good things that can be said of Elaida is that in her own twisted world, she does want the Light to win and she has accidently started the Great Purge. For the latter, at least, she should be forgiven all of her other trepasses.

77jester: 2007-08-18

You're right she does have a twisted view of how to deal with Rand, yet if you recall most Aes Sedai have similar thoughts about Rand and men in particular. Even Moraine, Suian, and Verin thought that Rand needed to be brought to the white tower so they could lead him Tarmon Gaidon safely (not exactly chains but the view is similar). Allana bonded him without asking for the same reasons. Elayne thought that Rand needed her guidance to handle matters in Andor correctly. Nynave thinks that he should have his ears boxed once a week just for good measure, and felt that Lan should have to swear an Oath to obey her no matter what.

Everyone in Randland feels that his/her way is the only way that things will work out. Moraine finally got the concept correct right before she and Lanfear went to Finn-land. She connected how they control Saidar to how she needed to deal with Rand. This thought might fit better in its own theory, but I think that all of the current Aes Sedai are about to get a rude awakening on how they manipulate events in the world.

A year of serving as a teacher to Windfinders (lower than a deckhand), and maybe serving as an apprentice to the Aiel Wise ones could serve as a useful punishment, as well as teach them some much needed humility.

When Rand met Taim he pointed out that none of his crimes compared to the forsakens, and if he was willing to fight with T G as the goal than he would be pardoned. Yes I know, we all see where that led to, but the principle is the same, you use every weapon you can when fighting the shadow. I even like the idea someone posted about collaring the Black Ajah and giving them to the Seanchan Suldame. Let's face it even if the Seanchan were to acknowledge that all Suldame could channel, those women would be basically worthless. There's not enough time to train them to be useful in T G. But if in the great purge the black ajah were to be captured, it would be poetic justice to use them against the shadow.

Sidhe: 2007-10-10

Haven't seen this here yet so, just throwing it in...

What about the "White's mad plan" or a version of that anyway?

Not saying that the Age after the Last Battle (if there will be another Age) will all be peace, love and happiness, or that a breeding programm is the next logical step (not at all even, that would be gross), but I don't think it can be discounted. Tho opposites attract, similarities can't be ruled out: Their respective Powers make Asha'men and Aes Sedai a bit more opposite than regular men and women, but also more similar. I wouldn't be surprised to see that they would fall for each other sooner than for a non-channeler. Having this natural selection occur would make the Bond unnessecary: the Power already grants channelers special benefits as it is, it would not be as with the traditional Warders. Men and women are perfectly well able to form a 'bond' on their own, without the Power involved at all. Also, these natural 'bonds' will help increase the channeling community, and procreation is always a very important thing (the main prerogative, really) in the preservation of any race, one-day-fly to human beings and anything in between.

Of course, this would just be an aspect of the evolving of the new Age in which male and female channelers will hopefully get along better than in the current one. It would be nice to see one of our cherished main characters have an active role in bringing the channeling community together, but although foundations may be set, the rest should (and probably will be) a matter of trial and error, a form of evolution.

Also, on a tiny side-note, if the new 'Tower' would be based on equality between men and women, then there should be Founding Parents, instead of one of either. After all, the greatest miracles have always been accomplished when men and women worked together. ;)

92ysoldier: 2008-02-12

In the end the world will begin to move into a new direction though back to when war was unheard of and where men and women worked together. I think that you are wrong on one point though. I think that the three oaths will be gone cus if you think about it maybe they will realize that the oath rod would be better for prisoners who can channel rather then them because of the side effects. If given the choice between living for a thousand years with unlimited power and living 300 with limited power then I know which I would choose

Egwene: 2008-05-13

I think Jester 77 is right, and I would like to elaborate on my version of this theory.

The three oaths will eventually be removed. In light of that assumption, men and women who can channel might become united in more than just the two towers. In time, both genders will begin to see the advantage in marrying someone who will have a life expectancy more equal to their own. It seems to me, that with the “new age” women will become less shut off from the world, and might be placed in more direct positions of power. Meaning, they will be freer to start families and get married, (Elayne, Nynaeve, and possibly Egwene). This will in affect serve two perposes.

1. Since they will be more like ordinary people, they will be more reddily trusted because the people will se that they may be advocating, not only for the tower, but for the community in wich they are living.

2. If Aes Sedai and Asha’man marry, it will increase the ability to channel in the general population. But don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that if a man can handle his wife’s power, or a woman her husband’s power, marriages between channelrs and ordinary people will also occur-if less frequently.

If channelers are living in towns and such, it might be easier to administer a yearly testing like the Seanchan do, so that more people with the spark, or who can learn are found. I think that an Aes Sedai (male or female) will have the choice of staying in the tower, or going off to seek another calling, while still sending regular reports to the tower. Someone who has chosen to stay at the white tower will come to see that things are well every so often.

The young channelrs with children might send their children to a school that could be built on the island of Tar Valon, to raise the young channnelers to work in harmony, increasing the probability of them marrying when older. What it be something if Elaida’s new palace was used for the school? Bet she’d hate that. That way, they can inform the greater community of channelers about important events, and be informed of happenings in the tower. In affect, being eyes and ears for their Ajah.

JakOShadows: 2008-05-15

Egwene:

I like everything you say about future harmony and stuff, but I still believe that the people of the current age have a large mistrust of channelers ingrained in them. So I believe that it will still be required of people if they are working in the public are, like you mentioned with the new sisters, but it does not have to be required for people who never leave the tower. So I think it will be, like Egwene mentions in the book, for people who retire into the kin and they can act as healers, secretaries, or researchers in the tower or whatever else they might want to do. They are just not allowed to be involved with any of the political intrigue or other forays outside of the tower.

Lan: 2008-08-08

If we accept the passage where Sammael reveals that the oath rod doesn't work on men, then it makes sense to stop forcing women to swear the oaths on the grounds of maintaining equality between the sexes.

As for the "wilders", there will not be as significant of a barrier once the oaths are done away with. I would easily see Accepted being sent to train with Windfinders and Wise Ones after TG, based on needs and abilities. This would create a solid link between the tower(s) and the "wilders".

I forsee a combined tower renaming itself the "Hall of Servants", though that specific name is not necessary.

Kolaz: 2009-10-29

While I like the idea, I feel the reformation, if it does happen, will be extremely far down the road. For the time being, the mindsets and goals of the two towers are so far apart that there is no way they can truly unite for many years. I believe that until they do unite, there will be a sort of alliance. The White and Black Towers will remain separate, but will have a sort of cooperative relationship. I just believe that the way the Black Tower was founded and is run is so different from the White that reunification will not be possible for long time after the end of the series.

wantfear: 2011-10-04

I have to say that i clicked on this theory category because i was hoping to see a theory on what countries will get decimated by trollocs in the post last battle days when dark things will be running around off their leash

But I instead saw THIS wonderful theory and i think that Obi did a great job predicting the things that have happened since this post was made. I especially like the part about the integration of Ashaman and Aes Sedai, but i have a slight addition in mind. I think that Logain's "future glory" as predicted by Min is to serve in a male seat of power equal to egwenes within this "integrated tower". OBviously channelers work at their best when combining both Saidin and saidar(if you want empirical evidence look at the fighting that happens at the cleansing, its virtually one sided). It would make sense for given position to exist in a post last battle world where men and women who weild the power are regarded as equals. I'm thinking that logain if the likely options mostly because of mins vision and because taim is obviously evil as shit and logain is going to prove himself when he takes down taim and his dark friend and 13-13 circled changed dark friends in the black tower.

More over so long as both the black tower and the white tower survive the last battle they will both be institutions of learning eventually for weilders of either power. Although i expect some damage to the black tower in the coming stand off and we all know that the white tower is barely standing after the SEANCHAN!!!

Which is my last thought. i Want somebody to put together a thoery on the Seanchan in the post last battle world. Either that or someone like Terez can promote me so i can write it maybe :D

fdsaf3: 2011-10-10

Sorry if this already got brought up, but I wanted to jot it down before I forget. I'm also at work, which is why I haven't read all the comments.

We know from the RJ interview database that everything, even a stone (which I believe is a direct quote from RJ, but I could be wrong) has a thread in the pattern. Therefore, the earth has a thread (or, more likely, a bunch of threads braided together).

If Rand (the Dragon) is one with the earth, then that would imply to me that their threads are bound together in some way. Thus, balefiring Rand and destroying his thread would destroy (or at least unravel) the thread/braid of the earth.

I know this is more of the metaphysics of WoT, but I'm wondering if it's releveant to this discussion.

Apologies for any spelling or grammer issues - I wrote this as fast as possible and didn't have time to check it for mistakes.

lslattimer: 2011-10-11

everyone has been screaming for a 13x13 forced to the dark side kind of thing... how do we absolutely know this is happening? so a guy has glassy eyes out of the blue or doesn't act like he always does, this doesn't mean they've been forced to the DO...knowing RJ and BS in his great image, these cats might just be hung over to red herring everyone...