1
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-24
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
There is a VAST difference between an ephemeral memory from a past life and that past life regaining consciousness inside your head. Right now the common consensus is that Mat's memories came from his trip through the Redstone doorway in Rhuidean, with a touch of post-Shadar Logoth thrown in. But his first old blood regression occured before all of that. Apparently the Old Blood can regurgitate itself without traumatic outside interference.
Your evidence shouldn't be ignored, but it isn't enough to debunk either Taint-related theory on the voices in Rand's head.
[side note: very clever screen name ;) ]
2
Callandor: 2005-02-25
The main theories are that the barrier broke down between Rand's past life and present life. Lews Therin just being a random voice created by taint madness, is pretty far fetched.
As for evidence, there is a lot of it, though it is not all specific to Rand al'Thor. Birgitte is the general example (and her being a Hero of the Horn, as well as Lews Therin, it doesn't matter since they don't have any objections to their traits):
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings
*If Birgitte was right, then somewhere in the world a boychild had been born, a mewling babe with ~no knowledge of who he was,~ yet destined for adventures that would make new legends.* The Wheel wove the heroes into the Pattern as they were needed, to shape thc Pattern, and when they died they returned here to wait again. That was what it meant to be bound to the Wheel. New heroes could find themselves bound so as well, men and women whose bravery and accomplishments raised them far above the ordinary, but once bound, it was forever.**
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 52 - Need
Nynaeve shivered, fear warring with the anger that let her contain the Power. Moghedien. Lanfear. This woman spoke so casually of the Forsaken. "Birgitte, what did Moghedien promise you?"
*"She knew what I was, even though I did not.* How, I do not know." Birgitte glanced at Cain; he appeared absorbed in his sword, but she lowered her voice anyway. "She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet."**
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 52 - Need
"Why not? You've spoken to me before. And Egwene thought she saw you. That was you, wasn't it?" Nynaeve frowned. "How do you know my name? Do you just know things?" "I know what I see and hear. I have watched you, and listened, whenever I could find you. You and the other two women, and the young man with his wolves. According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel'aran'rhiod. And yet, evil walks the dream as well as the world of flesh; you who fight it attract me. Even knowing I can do almost nothing, I find myself wanting to help you. But I cannot. *It violates the precepts, precepts which have held me for so many turns of the Wheel that in ~my oldest, faintest memories I know I had already lived a hundred times, or a thousand~.* Speaking to you violates precepts as strong as law."**
1. When Heroes (and by extension, ordinary people) are reborn, they have no knowledge of their past life. This is extremely obvious, besides the two quote I have given that say that outright. Did Rand have the memories that he has now, at the start of the series? Absolutely not. Did Rand know that he was Lews Therin reborn? Absolutely not.
2. Birgitte (and by extension, all the Heroes, and by further extension everyone else) can, in Tel'aran'rhiod remember memories from a vast amount of prior turnings of the Wheel. Whether ordinary people use this in Tel'aran'rhiod or not, who cares. The point is that the memories are, so to speak, encoded onto the soul. Past memories, from countless rebirths, are still on the soul. Birgitte makes an analogy in another quote about her memories being like books well read -- she can seperate between her past lives.
Given these two, it makes it quite clear, that sometime after death and prior rebirth, a barrier/cap/blockage, wathever your descrption, is put between memories of the past lives, and what will be the memories of their current life.
Now, what does the taint do? Corrupts, rots, destroys overtime. The Ways being made of saidin originally, and saidin being tainted and the most likely source of Machin Shin, corrupts Moiraine's staff similarly:
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 45 - What Follows in Shadow
"It could not pass," Moiraine said. "I thought it could not; I hoped it could not. Faugh!" She tossed her staff on the ground and scrubbed her hand on her cloak. Char, thick and black, marked the staff for over half its length. *"The taint corrupts everything in that place."***
The effects of this on Rand, since he is a Hero of the Horn, and a person reborn, and would have the barrier between past and present lives, can be the degregation of the barrier.
Imagine a jar with a lid. Outside the jar is a person's past life (yes, it seems counter-intuitive, but it's just a demonstration here); the inside is a person's present life. A person like Rand in this situation, with the taint being corruptive and corrosive, would be like sprinkling droplets of acid on the lid of the jar in a random pattern(obviously, more taint, more droplets). At first, the effects are minimal if not none at all. But over time, or instead over usage, the acid will corrode more, and holes will start to form.
What's in the past life? Memories. Just think of them as tiny film images. With the holes, the memories can cross over, and enter into the present life.
This is even made mention of by Rand!:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes
He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. He had no idea what a gholam was. Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name. *Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever ~thin barrier~ lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately. The fragments were not something he could fight, like the voice.* The hesitation lasted only a moment.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 21 - To Shadar Logoth
"Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. Lews Therin had to have that from him—*memories passed both ways across that ~barrier~, it seemed*—but it cut to the heart.**
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day
*A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's.* For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.**
Heck there are more quotes with Rand getting these memories, but I'm assuming you pretty much know that happens anyway.
Up to this point, there is not much of debate now. The point of conflict is in whether people believe that instead of memories coming over, that the entire personality of Lews Therin crossed over and entered Rand's mind.
(Personally, I find this hard to believe.
1. A personality says that a thing is alive in most cases. Treyal the Ogier is "alive", but he doesn't have anymore personality since he has lost his soul. Lews Therin in Rand's head, doesn't have a soul (thanks to RJ confirming that), so how would he be a personality?
2. If Lews Therin's personality crossed over, he would be instantly the same throughout the books -- yet we see Lews Therin changing instead, as well as growing in presence and "strength" over time.
3. What is a personality? A summation of memories. If Rand had Lews Therin's entire lifespan in his head, I'd agree that he has his personality; however, that would require the barrier being entirely gone, instead of just weakened.)
For you're rebuttal[...]can't be ruled out: Rand of course knows the place through stories. Shayol Ghul is a pretty famous (infamous...) and quite singular place.
3
Khaos: 2005-02-25
unfortunately I think you are forgetting that Moiraine reveals to Rand that he has been using saidin unconsciously for some time. The first examples of this happen very early (the refreshing of Bela)in the eye of the world which would expose him to the taint and perhaps allow the process to begin.
4
: 2005-02-25
Khaos: The dream reTaardad is referring to occurs before our little band of heroes leaves two rivers, while Moiraine is healing Taim. There is guaranteed no taint in him at that point.
However, the quote given can actually be made stronger by quoting two paragraphs later in the same dream:
***The Eye of the World, Tellings of the Wheel***
"'Serve me', a voice whispered in the stillness of his mind. A familiar voice. If he listened hard enough he was sure he would know it. 'Serve me'. He shook his head to try to get it out of his head. 'Serve me!' *He shook his fist at the black mountain 'The light consume you, Shai'tan!'*"
What we have here is a clear instance of Rand acting---saying something---on the basis of memories that he can't quite reach yet. It is perfectly possible that this is analogous to later times when something similar occurs, like when he is talking to Lanfear. ("And you loved power!", etc.)
I have never believed the theory that the taint breaks down barriers between past lives. It seems to me that this is an instance of false causation, compounded by Rand's stubborn denial that he is Lews Therin. What I mean by this is the following:
As far as I can tell, the usual logic behind the idea that the taint breaks down barriers between lives goes as follows (beyond the simple fact that it may be possible, which Callandor has shown very well):
As Rand has channeled more, he has absorbed more of the taint. At the same time, his memories of life as Lews Therin have become stronger. Thus the taint is most likely causing the memories of Lews Therin to come forward.
This is a classical logical fallacy. Just because both increase with time does not mean one is causing the other.
My personal theory is that for some reason, as part of being the Dragon Reborn, Rand needs Lews Therin's memories. At first, the memories are well-integrated in his mind; they are slowly being absorbed into his personality, much like Mat's memories. This results in both of them unconsciously using them when they aren't thinking. Then as time progresses, both of them start being able to remember things more consistently. (See the first discussion between Rand and Lanfear in Fires of Heaven, for an example. Rand is able to remember, *as though it were him*, holding Lanfear. He can also later dredge up old memories of the forsaken, as though he were the one remembering.) At this point, it is clear that Rand thinks that these memories are his, but that he would much rather they would disappear.
In Mat's case, however, there is no taint, so he has to come to grips with the memories as part of himself. He knows they aren't his, but as he says, they might as well be. Rand, on the other hand, does have the taint. He's starting to go a little nuts. And what is one of the most common signs of the taint? Voices in the head, telling the channeler what to do! And who is Rand most likely to attribute the voice in his head to? Lews Therin. If he pretends that Lews Therin is a voice in his thead, then *he* isn't the one with all these memories, remembering that he killed his wife and family. *He* isn't the one that's insane. Lews Therin is the nut! Rand Al'thor is sane.
As for the statement about there being a barrier between Rand and LLT, that statement is made from Rand's point of view, and Rand is hardly neutral about the idea that the memory might be *his*. IIRC, that is made right after Rand slips about mentioning a gholam before he knows what a gholam is. This slip is no different than all the earlier ones he made in TFoH. It's just that now, Rand is attributing it to LLT rather than himself. After all, he's not LLT. In fact, this is a good point to make in favor of the idea that the taint does not break barriers down: it really is no different than what we have seen from Rand before. All that has changed is Rand's perception of the voice in his head, i.e. insanity. The actual leakage of memories is going on exactly as it was well before he perceived the voice.
Thus, in case the logic above was a little unclear, my argument is that Rand and Matt both begin by obtaining memories in similar ways, as indicated by their unconscious use of them, followed by a conscious recognition of their existence. Matt, untainted, was forced to come to terms with them. Rand, on the other hand, denied their existence and validity, and as he got more of the taint, was able to attribute them to the voice in his head.
It is also my theory that the voice in his head is just the taint, like most channelers hear. Consider how often the voice wants detruction and mayhem. Consider what would happen if Rand did what it said. People would probably say he was nuts. This is clearly the kind of things most insane channelers hear; they hear a voice telling them to 'Kill them all! Kill everybody! Die!' (Hence the breaking of the world.)
5
haertchen: 2005-02-26
The anonymous post above is mine. Sorry; Don't know what happened.
6
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-28
Where do you get that Rand got memories in a way similar to Mat? Rand's memories are his own from a past life. The taint is probably resposible for bringing them across. However, where as Mat merged his with his own life, Rand denies them. The voice in his head is not madness, it's just him denying his memeories. All the memories that he doesn't want to recognise are what form the voice he hears.
Another point, the taint seems to allow memories across only when one is actually channeling. I say this because Rand gains the most memories when he uses Callandor which amplifies the taint.
7
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-02-28
Something I've always found inconsistent with the taint theory is that ...with Rand... he only hear's the voice of Lews Therin, not a single one of his other his previous lives' voices. This is quite inconsistent with the taint breaking down the barriers.
Ishamael when speaking to Rand made it clear that both he, and Rand/Lews Therin have been reborn countless times before.
Further, the example given of Birgitte and the hero's of the horn having access to their other memories in the dream world, does NOT necessarily mean ordinary people have access to their memories (doesnt mean they don't either)...there is one major difference between the Hero's of the HORN, and ordinary people...the horn of course. The HORN is what prevents them from returning to the 'Soulpool' like normal people. The HORN is what makes them take up residence in the dream world. Ordinary people do not go to the dream world after they die. And it is only in the dream world that the Hero's of the HORN remember their past lives.
We all know that even without memories our soul still exists. How tight are the hero's 'tied' to the Horn. Is it only just their souls 'tied' to the Horn, or is it their memories as well ?
I seem to remember Rand enterring the dream world in the flesh (just a thought this last)
8
Callandor: 2005-03-01
**Another point, the taint seems to allow memories across only when one is actually channeling. I say this because Rand gains the most memories when he uses Callandor which amplifies the taint.**
False.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh
"Rand thought that he would sleep well that night. He was nearly tired enough to forget Alanna's touch, and more important, Aviendha was out in the tents with the Wise Ones, not undressing for bed with no regard for his presence, not disturbing his rest with the sound of her breathing. Something else made him toss, though. Dreams. He always warded his dreams, to keep the Forsaken out—and the Wise Ones—but warding could not keep out what was already inside. *Dreams came of huge white things like giant birdwings without the bird, sailing across the sky; of great cities of impossibly tall buildings, shining in the sun, with shapes like beetles and flattened water-drops speeding along the streets. He had seen all that before, inside the huge ter'angreal in Rhuidean where he had gained the Dragons on his arms, and knew them for images of the Age of Legends, but this time it was all different. Everything seemed twisted, the colors ... wrong, as though something had gone askew in his eyes. The sho-wings faltered and fell, each carrying hundreds to death. Buildings shattered like glass, cities burned, the fend heaved like storm-tossed seas. And time after time he faced a beautiful golden-haired woman, watched love turn to terror on her face. Part of him knew her. Part of him wanted to save her, from the Dark One, from any harm, from what he himself was about to do. So many parts of him, mind splintered in glittering shards, all screaming.***
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 22 - Birdcalls by Night
"After a long silence, Asmodean said quietly, "I never knew that." "What I want to know is, why?" Rand chose his words carefully, hoping that they were all his. *He remembered Sammael's face, a man-Not mine. Not my memory-a compact man with a short yellow beard. Asmodean had described all the Forsaken, but he knew this image was not made from that description. Sammael had always wanted to be taller, and resented it that the Power could not make him so. Asmodean had never told him that.* "From what you've told me, he is not likely to want to face me unless he is sure of victory, and maybe not then. You said he'd likely leave me to the Dark One, if he could. So why is he sure he'll win now, if I decide to go after him?"**
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 20 - Jangai Pass
*Like Mar Ruois. He tried to shake the thought away, but in his head he could see that great city after it was retaken, immense towers blackened and collapsing, the remains of great bonfires at every street crossing, where those who had refused to swear to the Shadow had been bound and thrown alive to the flames. He knew whose memory it had to be,* though he had not discussed it with Moiraine. I am Rand al'Thor. Lews Therin Telamon is dead three thousand years. I am myself! That was one battle he meant to win. If he did have to die at Shayol Ghul, he would die as himself. He made himself think of something else.**
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways
"Why would Rahvin choose now to attack me? Asmodean says he looks to his own interests, that he'll sit to one side even in the Last Battle, if he can, and wait for the Dark One to destroy me. Why not Sammael, or Demandred? Asmodean says they hate me." Not me. They hate Lews Therin. But to the Forsaken, that was the same thing. Please, Light, I am Rand al'Thor. *He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the Power.* I am Rand al'Thor! "Why not Semirhage, or Moghedien, or Graen-?"**
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires
"The wine punch tasted of plums. *Rand could remember fat sweet plums from the orchards across the river when he was young, climbing the trees to pick them himself....* Tilting his head back, he drained the goblet. There were plum trees in the Two Rivers, but no orchards of them, and certainly not across any river. *Keep your bloody memories to yourself, he snarled at Lews Therin.* The man in his head laughed at something, giggling quietly to himself.**
Biggest indicator:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 33 - Blue Carp Street
"There were meat pies called pasties when I was a boy, Lews Therin murmured. We would buy them in the country and. . . .**
Rand, in a place where he cannot channel, has the memories.
The memories appear in Rand's dreams as well as like any other memory -- when triggered by a thought. They would most likely come up more often in channeling instances, because after all, that was a vast part of any AoLer's life: channeling. But Sammael brings up the same memories; the wine; Rand simply eating a meat pie. All trigger memories.
9
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-02
Yes, Rand entered T'A'R in the flesh multiple times. First, when he battled Ishy in tEotW. Next when he fought Ishy in tGH. More memorably, the battle with Ishy in the Stone in tDR, and when fighting Rhavin in tFoH. He also probably was there in the flesh when he spied on the Wise Ones meeting with Egwene where he saw the map.
10
Darren: 2005-03-02
I thought that LTT was so strongly in Rand's head because of his entering t'a'r in the flesh. Rahvin exploits the thinness between personae there when he and Rand fight at the end of FOH.
11
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-03
Also, Rand doesn't hear LTT's voice until he enters T'A'R in the flesh. The voice doesn't become really apparent until TDR, when he clearly enters through a standard gateway.
12
haertchen: 2005-03-03
Aiel Finn:
I didn't mean to imply that Mat and Rand got their memories in the same way. What I was arguing is that the memories were manifesting in the same way, e.g. Matt and Rand first used them unconciously (sp?), then began to have occasional "outbursts" of memory, and then through to conscious recall.
So however Rand got the memories, I believe that if it wasn't for the taint, he would have been forced to somehow incorporate them into his personality and deal with them. The taint just gave him a voice to blame the memories on. Matt provides a model for what might have happened, IMO. However, I never stated that the root cause of their different memories was the same. They are clearly not.
13
Callandor: 2005-03-04
**Also, Rand doesn't hear LTT's voice until he enters T'A'R in the flesh. The voice doesn't become really apparent until TDR, when he clearly enters through a standard gateway.**
The first confirmed voice of Lews Therin is in TFOH; the first "voice" is in TSR however.
14
haertchen: 2005-03-04
Aiel Finn:
I think it would be fairer to say FoH is the first time Rand knows the words for what he is doing. In TEotW, Rand enters into the skimming place and then into T'A'R through (as far as I can tell) a perfectly normal gateway (he doesn't know he is doing it). In TDR, Rand has a better idea of what he is doing, especially because he just saw Ishamael do it, but he hasn't learned the vocabulary. In both cases, I doubt it's any different than what he does in FoH. He just knows the name after being tutored by Asmodean.
I personally think the theory that entering T'A'R in the flesh being the cause of Lews Therin is worse than the theory that it's the taint; at least the taint theory has a mechanism to back it up slightly.
O.K., lets list the things that we know have happened:
1) Rand has remembered more and more of Lews Therin's memories and personality traits.
2) Rand has channeled more saidin, and hence more taint.
3) Rand has entered T'A'R in the flesh and thus accumulated more total time there.
4) Lews Therin's voice has become stronger.
All four of these have occured together, e.g. the more taint Rand has channeled, the more of Lews Therin's memories he has recovered. However, this does not prove cause and effect. I could also claim that absorbing the taint causes the channeler to enter T'A'R in the flesh. This is clearly true in Rand's case: As Rand has channeled more of the taint, he has accumulated more total time in T'A'R in the flesh. QED!
The only two things in my list that are almost certainly related are (2) and (4), and the reason I can say this is because, according to Cadsuane, it holds true for most channelers.
As I have said before, imagine what would happen if Rand listened to Lews Therin. He would have performed some highly destructive acts! He would have gone around killing all channelers, at the very least. This is very much in accord with what we know of the taint, which seems specifically to drive channelers insane in highly destructive ways.
15
Merk: 2005-04-27
Callandor said:
"The first confirmed voice of Lews Therin is in TFOH; the first "voice" is in TSR however."
I think this is just a plain old voice in his head. Other characters have had a voice in their head say something to them or argue with them, and we haven't taken it to mean they are hearing dead men/women.
I also think that seeing and knowing SG and hearing and knowing the DO in his dreams does not necessarily mean Rand *knows* them, has seen/heard them before (as LTT.) He may just "know" them as I might "know" God's (or the devil's) voice if suddenly I heard it in a dream. I might also "know" heaven or hell if I saw it in a dream, even if I had never seen it before in reality (or in a past live my soul lived in the AoL).
That's the problem (in a good way!) with the WoT books: sometimes things are just mean metaphorically, and sometimes they are major foreshadowing, and we can argue on here for a long time about which is which until some later book reveals all... :)
I just mentioned this in another thread, and maybe this has been discussed ad nauseum (I'm new here; hi!), but in PoD Rand sees himself with a blurry face he can't make out, but LTT recognizes the face, or at least the presence, and is surprised. I wonder if this could be a thinning between LTT and *his* previous incarnation, ie, a *previous* previous incarnation of Rand. As Rand is the reborn soul of a man known only through the murkiness of time, perhaps LTT recognizes this blurry face guy as a legend from a previous age to his own. Afterall, wouldn't the Dragon himself be someone reborn, perhaps with a similar set of prophecies connecting the two, as the prophecies connect LTT and Rand?
16
Callandor: 2005-04-27
**I think this is just a plain old voice in his head. Other characters have had a voice in their head say something to them or argue with them, and we haven't taken it to mean they are hearing dead men/women.**
It's a voice telling Rand what to do about a very complex channeling aspect, just like Lews Therin helping Rand when he was shielded in Lord of Chaos. Rand was talking to himself many times before, but not one other time did the "voice" comment anything about what to do for channeling.
**I wonder if this could be a thinning between LTT and *his* previous incarnation, ie, a *previous* previous incarnation of Rand. As Rand is the reborn soul of a man known only through the murkiness of time, perhaps LTT recognizes this blurry face guy as a legend from a previous age to his own. Afterall, wouldn't the Dragon himself be someone reborn, perhaps with a similar set of prophecies connecting the two, as the prophecies connect LTT and Rand?**
As far as we know, Lews Therin was born without any prophecies about him. Not evey Age is the same for the Dragon's soul. In some ages, as said by RJ, the Dragon's soul is reborn into a person in an non-Dragon carnation (IE: it's the same soul, same purpose, but the world doesn't say "Oh, hey, it's the Dragon!" or "It's the Dragon Reborn." Instead is more likely to be "Hey, Fred" or whatever).
Also, your proposal is dependent on ~what~ caused Lews Therin to appear in Rand's head. If you believe your statement to be true, then you are forced to believe that Lews Therin was in Rand forever, and had only "woken up" or some other propsal.
The counter theory (and the one I advocate seen here), is that the taint broke the barrier between past and present life (between Rand and Lews Therin), and that memories started to drift over, and coupled with Taint madness, stress, and the quleching of feelings by Rand, a voice appeared in Rand's mind with the name of Lews Therin. This is how the voice can give the factual information that it does, as well as explaining why only Lews Therin seems to be there (the third man appearing is a neat part though ;)), and such a powerful presence.
That theory is simply impossible to transfer over to Lews Therin, because there was no taint on saidin for a vast amount of his life. Granted, Lews Therin was at the sealing of the Bore, when the backblast occured, but that made him and the remaining Hundred Companions go ~insane~, not breaking their barriers down.
It's a subtle difference that's quite big that must be distinguished. From what it seems, the taint madness and the breaking down of barriers comes from the same source (the taint by my theory), but they take place at different times. The barrier break down we've only seen in Rand that we know of, but the madness we've seen a few times. The barrier breaking seems to happen at a relatively steady rate (which is quite important given the correlation I've set up between the growth of Lews Therin and the amount of tainted saidin Rand has channeled), while the taint madness can vary at many times. There is Logain who seems to be the upper limit of resistance (6 years) (Note: I do not consider Taim here, because he has far more complexity to why he has resisted 15 years, and it's not a natural thing ;)), while there were initiates of the Black Tower who went mad on their second day.
In Rand, it seems that the two are happening at roughly the same time. Rand is having these memories, and the taint madness spin-kicks this into Rand's personal madness: a voice in his head based on memeories of his past life (other factors most likely played a minor part as well). With Lews Therin, it was much more likely that the taint madness simply happened instantaneously. After all, he is not talking to someone not there (like Rand does, and others have seen him do), but he is simply completely out of touch with reality (calling for Ilyena when she's dead in front of him; being nice and gratious to his nemesis).
17
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-29
Rmember that Lews was not mad from the Taint when he died. Ishy healed him of the taint madness just before he committed suicide in order to torture him with his killing of all his family. LTT is not mad. He's just extremely grieved.
18
Asmodean: 2005-04-29
gonna have to agree with callandor here..check me post on Are there any Real voices in Rands Head for my theory
19
Callandor: 2005-04-29
**Rmember that Lews was not mad from the Taint when he died. Ishy healed him of the taint madness just before he committed suicide in order to torture him with his killing of all his family. LTT is not mad. He's just extremely grieved.**
He's dead -- he has no emotions. Rand, however, does ;)
